MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, might I then call the person who is the first applicant, Aggie Shoke?
CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry there's one other question I meant to ask the previous applicant but you can perhaps apply the answer. How old is he?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, he was born in 1947 so that would make him 50.
CHAIRPERSON: To place it on record before your counsel starts, when were you born?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke, is it correct that in 1988 you were a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?
MR LANDMAN: When did you become of member of uMkhonto weSizwe?
MR LANDMAN: Who were members of your unit in 1988?
MR SHOKE: It was myself, Harold, Dumakude and Dube - Captain Dube.
MR LANDMAN: You refer to him as Captain Dube, is he presently a Captain in the Defence Force?
MR SHOKE: Yes he is a Captain.
MR LANDMAN: Thank you. Who was the commander of the unit?
MR LANDMAN: And who was second in command?
MR SHOKE: It was Captain Dube.
MR LANDMAN: Was Mr Matshididi and yourself as it were the lower ranks in the unit? Foot soldiers as it were?
MR SHOKE: He was low when it comes to ranks.
MR LANDMAN: And yourself as well?
MR LANDMAN: Now Mr Shoke is it correct that you were requested to participate in an operation involving the planting of a bomb at Ellis Park Rugby Stadium?
MR LANDMAN: How did you become involved?
MR SHOKE: Dumakude came to us, he told us that there was a certain mission to fulfil at Ellis Park. He said that the mission should be carried out on Saturday when a rugby match would be in place. He requested myself and Harold to go and check up the place which we did. ...[indistinct] twice and on Friday the day before the match all of us went to the place to see where the bomb could be planted.
MR LANDMAN: When you say all of us, who was present on the Friday?
MR SHOKE: It was myself, Dube, Dumakude and Harold.
MR LANDMAN: What was the purpose of going to Ellis Park on the Friday?
MR SHOKE: It was for them to see the place as well, how it was structured.
MR LANDMAN: Did Dumakude say anything about the area around Ellis Park on the Friday?
MR SHOKE: He said the next day we were supposed to bring a bomb that was to be planted at Ellis Park.
MR LANDMAN: Were you ever told why a bomb should be planted at Ellis Park?
MR SHOKE: Yes. It was to send the message to the whites that the struggle was now heading towards them.
MR LANDMAN: At that particular stage had you received any directions from uMkhonto weSizwe leadership as to whether you were allowed to attack civilian targets?
MR LANDMAN: What happened on Saturday morning, the morning of the rugby match?
MR SHOKE: It was myself, Dumakude, Harold and Dube. We went to buy the two cylinders, battery and a clock watch and that car, the BMW.
MR LANDMAN: Who paid for the equipment?
MR LANDMAN: Did he pay for the car as well?
MR SHOKE: Yes he paid for the car as well.
MR LANDMAN: And where did you go to after you had collected the car as well as the equipment?
MR SHOKE: We went to Diepkloof, Zone 5.
MR LANDMAN: And what happened there?
MR SHOKE: They assembled the bomb in Zone 5 so that they can transport it to Ellis Park.
MR LANDMAN: What did you do whilst the bomb was being assembled?
MR SHOKE: I was standing a little bit far from the car keeping watch.
MR LANDMAN: Were you aware at that stage that a car bomb was being built?
MR LANDMAN: Did you know what the intended target was?
MR SHOKE: It was to drive the car to Ellis Park.
MR LANDMAN: What sort of damage was to be caused by this car bomb according to the plan?
MR SHOKE: The bomb was meant to take the message to the white people.
MR LANDMAN: Was it intended that people should be killed?
MR SHOKE: No it was not our intention to kill people.
MR LANDMAN: Was it your intention to injure people that day?
MR SHOKE: It was not our intention either.
MR LANDMAN: Did you know what time the car bomb was to explode?
MR SHOKE: I was not told of that, I was not with them when they set the bomb.
MR LANDMAN: Now did you leave Diepkloof later and travel in the direction of Ellis Park Rugby Stadium?
MR LANDMAN: In what vehicle were you?
MR LANDMAN: Who drove that Kombi?
MR SHOKE: I was the driver of the Kombi.
MR LANDMAN: Was anybody with you?
MR SHOKE: Yes, I was with Dube.
MR LANDMAN: And who was driving the vehicle in which the car bomb had been placed?
MR SHOKE: Dumakude was driving the car bomb.
MR LANDMAN: And was Harold with him?
MR SHOKE: Yes he was with him.
MR LANDMAN: Now when you arrived in the vicinity of Ellis Park what happened?
MR SHOKE: I did not even reach the vicinity. When they took the right turn I took the left turn to go and wait for them at a spot agreed upon that after setting the bomb they would meet us.
MR LANDMAN: And where was that spot?
MR SHOKE: I was going to wait for them at Checkers in Hillbrow.
MR LANDMAN: Did you in fact wait for them at Checkers?
MR SHOKE: Yes I waited for them.
MR LANDMAN: Did Dumakude and Harold later come to the vehicle, to the Kombi?
MR LANDMAN: Did you hear the explosion?
MR SHOKE: Yes I heard the explosion.
MR LANDMAN: Do you know what time the explosion was?
MR SHOKE: I think it was round about five o'clock. Yes, round about five o'clock.
MR LANDMAN: Now when you participated in the activities that week and in particular on the Saturday, were you acting under any instructions or orders?
MR LANDMAN: Did you consider Dumakude to be a commander in uMkhonto weSizwe?
MR SHOKE: He was our commander.
MR LANDMAN: Did you believe that Dumakude was carrying out instructions that had been given to him?
MR SHOKE: Yes he was also executing orders given to him.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke, now that you know that the car bomb caused the loss of two lives as well as a number of injuries, would you describe to the Committee how you feel about that?
MR SHOKE: I regret the injury of the injured ones and those who died. It was not our intention to go and kill people. I will stop there.
MR LANDMAN: Thank you, that's the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shoke, you refer to Dube, Mr Dube as Captain Dube. Is he presently in the SANDF?
ADV PRIOR: Are you also employed in the SANDF?
MR SHOKE: No I'm not employed within the SANDF. I am not working for the force.
ADV PRIOR: And Mr Matshididi, do you know where he is employed?
ADV PRIOR: Now M.K., uMkhonto weSizwe, was the military wing of the ANC. The ANC formed a political body is that correct and the M.K. the military arm?
ADV PRIOR: At the time of the Ellis Park Bomb, were you politically aware, in other words were you up to speed and up to date on the political decisions made by the ANC or the policies made by the ANC at the time?
MR SHOKE: Yes I knew the policy.
ADV PRIOR: I just never caught the reply to a question by your counsel - did you say there was no order from the M.K. to attack civilian targets or there was an order from M.K. to attack civilian targets?
MR SHOKE: Repeat your question Sir?
ADV PRIOR: I just want to get clarity, was there an order or an instruction that came to your attention that civilian targets like the one at Ellis Park Stadium, rugby stadium, was to be attacked?
MR SHOKE: No there is no such order.
ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell us whether as far as you were concerned, were you aware that it was policy of uMkhonto weSizwe in fact to attack civilian targets at the time, that is soft targets?
MR SHOKE: It was never the policy.
ADV PRIOR: So would you agree in the light of what we've heard from Mr Matshididi and what I put to him in questioning and your own knowledge, the planting of a bomb in such a soft area if I may put it that way, was a departure, was a moving away, was something different to what M.K. had been involved in up until that time? Let me be more specific, your targets up to that time were hard targets in the sense they were either military installations, police stations and the like, institutions closely linked to the Government of the day?
MR SHOKE: It was not our intention to kill people, to injure people, civilians.
ADV PRIOR: Yes I hear what you saying but I just want to get the distinction in your mind if such a distinction is made by yourself. Up until that stage uMkhonto weSizwe and the unit that you were a member of, we've heard that from Mr Matshididi or co-applicant, the type of missions that you went on were to attack government buildings, installations, police stations and the such, the like?
ADV PRIOR: We've heard evidence over the many months and years of the TRC that there was a reference in military terms to hard and soft targets. The targets that you now talk about, the military and the police stations were hard targets as opposed to unarmed civilians being soft targets. Was that distinction clear in your mind at the time?
MR SHOKE: I knew the distinction between the two.
ADV PRIOR: So not having a general instruction to attack soft targets, do I then understand, am I correct in saying to you that the planing of a bomb at Ellis Park, even though it wasn't your intention to kill or injure anybody, it was planted in a civilian area, that that was a departure, it was something different to what your unit as an M.K. unit was used to doing? It was a different type of operation?
ADV PRIOR: Let me try and simplify it. You were a member of the M.K. unit. To attack a police station in a military fashion with weapons and attack the policemen in that unit who were also armed was a target that we know, we've heard evidence about as referred to loosely as a hard target. Are you saying the planting of a bomb in a street outside a rugby stadium is the same type of target you were used to attacking and you had orders to attack?
MR SHOKE: We were taking a message across to the white people.
ADV PRIOR: And that message was what?
MR SHOKE: That the killing of people in the townships can also happen to them. We were sending the message to the white area.
ADV PRIOR: In other words that white people gathered together for example at a rugby match, were also capable of being killed like the black people who were dying in the townships. Is that the message you wanted to convey?
MR SHOKE: Repeat your question Sir?
ADV PRIOR: The message that you wanted to convey was that white people could also be killed just as black people were being killed in the townships?
MR SHOKE: No, they were supposed to intervene and talk to their leadership about what was happening in the townships.
ADV PRIOR: Do I understand your evidence to be that when Dumakude came to you and said as I understand Mr Matshididi's evidence, a message has to be sent out to the white people of this country, they must understand that their position is also vulnerable, they can also be killed because our brothers and sisters in the townships were being killed. Are you say that the fact that he bomb would explode that the white people would the have to make representations to the Government to change their ways? Is that your evidence?
MR SHOKE: That is what I want to tell you.
ADV PRIOR: Couldn't that statement have been made if the bomb was planted away from where so many people would be gathered?
In other words in a deserted car park where for example at a shopping complex where there was nobody at all? Or at a deserted sports field or at a deserted stadium? Could that message have not been got across in that way?
MR SHOKE: Dumakude instructed us to take the bomb to that place.
ADV PRIOR: I want to know from you, I hear that you were acting under orders but as far as you were concerned did you possibly think that maybe the message we could get across to the white people in a different way, we didn't have to plant a bomb near a rugby stadium where many people were gathered or didn't you think like that at all?
MR SHOKE: Sir, that's how we thought of this, we thought that the message would reach the white people.
ADV PRIOR: And you didn't think that people could be injured or killed, placing this powerful bomb in a vehicle so close to the stadium?
MR SHOKE: We did not go there with the intention of killing people. It was placed far from the gates. I was not there but I was told that it was not placed close to the gate.
CHAIRPERSON: How far was it from the houses in the street?
MR SHOKE: I did not see them when they planted the bomb.
CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you go there the night before and pick a place to park the bomb, to plant the bomb?
MR SHOKE: Yes, we went but he did not say where the bomb would be placed, he was actually checking the place.
CHAIRPERSON: You say there was no suggestion the night before of where the bomb would be placed?
MR SHOKE: He said he would place it there but I don't know where he placed the bomb because at that time I was not present, I was not with them.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we were told it was in front of an old house, weren't we?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, if I could just intervene for a moment? I don't know whether there's common cause between myself and Mr Prior but my instructions are that the houses in that area were derelict and abandoned and it was a very old part of Johannesburg, part of Doornfontein.
ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I indicate to the Committee a bit later on whether that is in fact common cause, I can't give that assurance at this stage but we'll certainly revert to the Committee whether anyone was resident there at the time but certainly they were very old houses.
Did you not - when you reconnoitred the street where, that was on the Friday, did you see there were old houses there?
MR SHOKE: Yes, there were old houses nearby.
ADV PRIOR: But you didn't know that people were not staying there or lived there, did you?
MR SHOKE: Those were just walls without roofs, it look like people did not stay in.
ADV PRIOR: And when you went there on the Friday did cars drive past you, was there any movement in that street? Did you see people walking around there?
MR SHOKE: It was a quiet area, there were no cars driving by, no movements.
ADV PRIOR: From where you reconnoitred, that street where you decided on the Friday that this would be a good place, you could see the Ellis Park Stadium, is that correct?
MR SHOKE: I do not remember but I think the stadium was far.
ADV PRIOR: I know you say you drove on and possibly never saw where the bomb, the car bomb was planted and if you look at the bundle page 43, that is the third bundle at page 43. According to Mr Matshididi they parked the vehicle he says behind a bus. There's a bus in that photograph, can you see that?
ADV PRIOR: Unfortunately it's not a very clear - well it's a photocopy but one sees in the background the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium.
MR SHOKE: I don't see quite clearly but yes I see something here.
ADV PRIOR: Well maybe your attorney can maybe just point out the stands that one sees in the background behind the bus?
ADV PRIOR: Alright. But in any event your intention was to explode this bomb near the rugby stadium where many people were watching the game in such a manner that they would be effected in what ever degree to approach the Government or approach whatever political party belonged to, to do something about the situation in the country, is that correct?
ADV PRIOR: And you accept now today that you, apart from selecting this quiet street on the Friday, you took no steps to prevent any other person being injured or killed by this bomb exploding as it did on the Saturday?
MR SHOKE: The person who assembled the bomb is the relevant person to answer that question, I know nothing about bombs.
ADV PRIOR: But you knew that when bombs explode people can be killed, especially bombs placed in the street or near buildings, is that right?
ADV PRIOR: Before you planted this Ellis Park bomb there had been other bombings that M.K. had done, is that correct?
ADV PRIOR: You knew about those bomb blasts, is that right?
ADV PRIOR: Mr Shoke, did you say you went to - you drove to Hillbrow and waited at Checkers. Are you able to tell the Committee how long you waited before Mr Dumakude and Mr Matshididi arrived?
MR SHOKE: I did not wait a long time before they arrived, it was just a short time. When they were close enough we heard a sound and we got into the car and drove off.
ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell the Committee how far you drove away from the Ellis Park Stadium, in other words how far that stadium was from where you parked at Hillbrow?
MR SHOKE: I did not even reach the stadium, when they turned right I turned left towards Hillbrow.
ADV PRIOR: Would one have to travel more than five minutes by car or are you unable to tell us? I just need to try and get a sense of how long it was from the time that they put the bomb there until it went off, I'm trying to establish that.
CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it be possible to obtain the distance Mr Prior?
CHAIRPERSON: My feeling which is vague is that it's quite a long way for - to walk?
MR LANDMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, what I'll do is I'll drive that distance at night and hopefully I'll get out of Hillbrow.
CHAIRPERSON: If it's not too much trouble for you if it's approximately in your way we would be obliged. Thank you Mr Landman.
Were you aware at any stage that the ANC after the Ellis Park bomb was not claiming responsibility for that and I tell you on what I based that. There was a report in a press statement that at a meeting at Harare after the Ellis Park bomb, it was a delegation of various politicians and businessmen and I understand Mr Louis Luyt or Dr Louis Luyt was also part of that delegation and the ANC had indicated there that they were unaware who had done that and because of that they couldn't claim responsibility?
CHAIRPERSON: They couldn't claim responsibility not that they were in any way condemning the attack.
ADV PRIOR: Sorry, the impact of my question or the purport of it is that at time it seems from the press clipping and obviously one must be careful but just for his comment, it seems that the ANC were unaware at that time of who had carried out that attack. Are you able to comment?
MR SHOKE: The most relevant person to answer to that question is Dumakude who was the commander of the unit.
ADV PRIOR: I just get a sense from your evidence that your participation was just purely perfunctory, you could quite easily have stayed at home? The fact that you drove the vehicle - Dube could have driven the vehicle. Is that correct?
ADV PRIOR: Oh I see. The unit that you referred to was a four man unit, is that right?
ADV PRIOR: And when operations were carried out on orders did the unit normally perform those or carry out those orders as a unit and not as individuals?
ADV PRIOR: Mr Shoke, is there anything you wish to say to the victims who are present today?
MR SHOKE: I want to say to them I am sorry, it was not our intention to kill people or to injure anyone.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you. Mr Chairman, just for the record I have a statement of a Mrs Mary Magdalene Bothma who at the time was residing at No. 3a Upper Meyer Street, Doornfontein. So there may well have been, and at this stage we do not want to make an issue of it but there may well have been derelict houses but certainly from the statement that I have it's a damage bundle which hasn't been put before the Committee because of it's volume and I'll make that statement available for whatever worth it is, that she certainly was resident at No. 3a. So there may well have been derelict houses but certainly it seems one or two may have been occupied although she ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: The photograph you showed us, the house 43, does not look to be derelict. It's got a roof on it and what have you, the house behind the blown up car.
ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman I'll certainly make enquiries.
CHAIRPERSON: Well when we see the proper coloured photographs tomorrow, it might be possible to ascertain from them without the necessity of - because these photographs, it's very difficult to make any clear conclusion.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR
MR LANDMAN: No re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MR LANDMAN
ADV PRIOR: I just want to ascertain from the victims if they wanted? - thank you Mr Chairman, there's no questions from them.
DR TSOTSI: Mr Shoke did you receive any military training?
DR TSOTSI: What kind of military training was it?
MR SHOKE: It was a crash course.
DR TSOTSI: A crash course. Did you use explosives in that crash course?
MR SHOKE: No we did not use explosives.
DR TSOTSI: This unit that you refer to, by whom was it formed, your unit, by whom was it formed and when?
MR SHOKE: The unit was formed by Dumakude.
MR SHOKE: In the country, inside South Africa.
DR TSOTSI: And did Dumakude not go abroad ...[inaudible] or for training?
MR SHOKE: He went for training.
DR TSOTSI: At what stage did he form the unit?
MR SHOKE: When he came back to the country.
DR TSOTSI: So he formed the unit here in South Africa after he returned from military training?
MR SHOKE: He came in and go, came in and go.
DR TSOTSI: Did he have the authority to form a unit?
MR SHOKE: Yes, he was the commander.
DR TSOTSI: He was a commander but he had the authority to form a unit, is that right?
MR SHOKE: He had the authority.
DR TSOTSI: Now you say that you did not yourself participate in the laying of the bomb, you did not participate when the bomb was placed?
DR TSOTSI: I'd like to refer you to your statement on page 2 of the - right at the bottom there - car bomb at Ellis Park. The second line where you say the car containing the explosives was placed near the gates of Ellis Park and the timing device was set. Did you make that statement from your own knowledge?
DR TSOTSI: Yes and how do you know where the car was - where the car containing the explosives was placed if you did not in fact attend the scene?
MR SHOKE: When they assembled the bomb I was with them.
DR TSOTSI: Where did they assemble the bomb?
MR SHOKE: We were at Zone 5, Diepkloof.
DR TSOTSI: Yes but I want to know about the place near the gates of Ellis Park, were you present when the car containing the bomb was stationed near Ellis Park?
MR SHOKE: When the placed the car, I was not with them. I drove to Hillbrow to wait for them.
DR TSOTSI: So it's not correct that you say that as far as you know from your knowledge that a car containing the explosives was placed near the gates at Ellis Park and the timing was set? Of your own knowledge unless you heard that from somebody else?
MR SHOKE: I don't understand your question Sir?
DR TSOTSI: The question is simple. Were you present when the car containing the explosives was placed outside Ellis Park?
DR TSOTSI: So why then do you say in your statement that the car was in fact placed near the gates of Ellis Park? It says he was not present.
MR SHOKE: I was part and parcel of the people who went to place the bomb but I did not reach the final place where the bomb was planted.
DR TSOTSI: You see the evidence says that the bomb was not placed at the gates ...[inaudible] it was a distance away but in your statement you say it was at the gates?
CHAIRPERSON: The passage that has been read to you is that from paragraph 9(a)i of your application for amnesty - do you agree - under the heading "Car Bomb at Ellis Park 1988" and is it absolutely identical with the same paragraph in your co-applicants application at page 8?
CHAIRPERSON: Who filled in the applications for you?
MR SHOKE: If I'm not mistaken it was Patience.
MR SHOKE: She is our consultant.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chair maybe I can explain. She works at the ANC Truth Desk.
CHAIRPERSON: One point I think I would like to ask you about. Yes, you talked about the message to the white people or a message to the whites, do you remember that, that is the purpose of the bomb?
CHAIRPERSON: By that did you mean a message to those people who were governing the country at the time?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman do you have any further evidence?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I don't have any further evidence, I just want to place on record that we do intend relying upon the contents of the submissions made by the ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not trying to bring you to an end at the moment, I merely as you may recollect Mr Prior said that the victims might wish to make a statement and if they could do so today it would be convenient that one of them has come from a long way away, so I merely thought if you're not calling any further evidence at this stage could we dispose of that now?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I can confirm we will not going to be calling any more evidence at this stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior you can now call the victims who wish to come forward and make statements.
ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I might indicate that because of the development of the other persons appearing tomorrow, both victims have said that they would remain in attendance but notwithstanding that I think we should use the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Do they wish to do so now or would they rather do it when they've heard all the evidence regarding the applicants. It may be that tomorrow they have a somewhat different approach to the matter. It would be fairer to them to make any statement they wish to after the matter has been concluded. In the light of the understanding, I will not call it agreement, about a possible appearance tomorrow, it would seem it would be convenient to take the adjournment at this stage and we consider our position at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning if that suits you Mr Landman?
ADV PRIOR: Yes that would be a prudent course to adopt.
CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn and I hope that we will be able to commence at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.