CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it's Wednesday the 12th of May 1999. We are continuing with the amnesty applications in respect the murder of MK George and MK Brown. Yes, Mr Prinsloo, I was told that you would interpose your client at this stage.
MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases you, Mr Chairperson. I will then call the applicant, Mr Gert Visser, to give testimony.
ADV DE JAGER: Your full names please.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, the application of the applicant appears on page 115 to 117 and 122 to 123, and also the further end, which is the political motivation, 124 to 131. Mr Chairperson, before you I have already ...(intervention)
MR PRINSLOO: Volume 1, that is correct, Chairperson. It's been placed before, which is Exhibit R and the application of the applicant which appears on page 116 and 177 which is hand-written, has been typed over for the comfort of the Committee, so that it can be read easier. This would be Exhibit R with your permission.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, is Exhibit R from page 116 to 121 to 117?
MR PRINSLOO: This is the incident that is serving before the Honourable Committee. Where it says Incident 1, Chairperson, page 116 of volume 1, from there it is typed. It is typed up to where it starts again, where the paragraph 9.A.1 starts. Just before that the typing stops, just to make it legible for you and also the Honourable Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: I see the last word on the written piece is shot...
MR PRINSLOO: Sorry, Chairperson, that is correct. As it pleases you.
MR PRINSLOO: ...(inaudible) just in order to be of some assistance to my learned friend, Mr van der Berg. He has turned up with relations of the victim in the Simelane matter, because it was at the pre-trial conference suspected that we might get to that matter this week. I've just told him that the position, what the position is, that we've been called up to go to Pretoria during the course of the day and that we'll probably not be available - well, we'll definitely not be available tomorrow, but probably also not on Friday and then the matter will only come on on Monday. Perhaps it might be appropriate for you to confirm to Mr van der Berg, so that he knows to make his arrangements, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well I'm sorry, nobody brought that to my attention. I have also haven't noticed that. Is it in the Simelane matter that you're appearing?
MR VAN DEN BERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We are having a logistical difficulty as a Committee in the sense that we are trying to get all these remaining cases done as quickly as we can and often there are overlaps in the sense that legal representatives have clients appearing at more than one of our sessions at the same time. This has happened between this session in Johannesburg and the one in Pretoria.
Our colleagues in Pretoria have concluded their roll. They've got only the matters remaining where Mr Wagener and Visser appear and in order to enable them to facilitate and conclude their hearing over there, what we have ruled here is that we will listen to the remainder of the witnesses in this matter that we are hearing, which is a different matter from the one that you are appearing in, and then we will release Mr Visser and Wagener to conclude the matter in front of our colleagues in Pretoria and then to revert to us as soon as they are through there.
So we're definitely not going to be able to take another today unfortunately. So you know there would no sense in your staying on today. What I want to suggest - we're not quite sure how it will work out, and when we are going to be able to reconvene. Perhaps you should in touch and Ms Thabethe should be in touch with you as well, just to keep you posted and give you a clearer indication as to when we would hear your case, so that you don't have to come through here and to hang around and wait for your case.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Ms Thabethe had contacted me late yesterday afternoon, unfortunately just via a voice-mail message. We weren't able to speak personally about just where you were placed and what the arrangements were. As a result of that I was unable to contact my clients to prevent them from coming through today. They've come through from Mpumalanga. They understand the logistical difficulties that we have, but obviously they're disappointed that their matter won't come on. I need to be able to give them some sort of notice as to whether we're going to start on Friday, or whether it's going to be Monday.
You know from my perspective it doesn't matter whether we start this afternoon or tomorrow or whatever, I'm prepared and ready. It's really just to facilitate their travel arrangements more than anything else, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no, we appreciate that, Mr van den Berg. Just give me an indication, Ms Thabethe, do we have another matter apart from Simelane, that we would be able to continue with if we were to reconvene between now and Monday? Because it appears to me, if the interested parties are from Mpumalanga - I might have been wrongly under the impression that they are local, from Johannesburg, in that case perhaps it is better if we give them a fixed arrangement. And it looks to me at this stage as if Monday is a more sort of definite indication, instead of telling them that we will phone them and that sort of stuff you know. So would it make sense for us to say that we will arrange for them to come back on Monday instead of being in limbo in the meantime, and that if we reconvene we've got some other things that we can listen to.
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I think it would be proper if we reconvened this matter on Monday. Should we, between now and Friday, have any other matters - there is the matter of Herbert Mbali, which I understand is quite a short matter as well.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I think that's better. Mr van den Berg, will you then convey that to your clients and just convey our apologies as well. We are trying to balance out, which is often totally impossible to balance our in this process. But please apologise to them and tell them that we will stand the matter down until Monday and we should be able to help them pretty soon.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, they are present in the hall and they've heard what you said and I will simply confirm it with them. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. And I'm indebted to my colleagues for the period that we've interjected in their matters. Thank you. Might we be excused?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed, you're excused. Thank you. Mr Prinsloo?
EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, may I just indicate to you, the last paragraph in Exhibit R, there is a typographical error, it should be "shot". That is what confused me. It should not be "shot dead", it should just be shot. Thank you. Can I then continue with the ...(inaudible)
Mr Visser, you apply for amnesty in relation to the incident that is serving before this Committee, and according to your evidence happened on the 8th of December 1981 at the border of Swaziland, close to Oshoek.
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: You refer to the people that were killed there as George and Brown.
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, you since 1966 have been a member of the Security Branch and at the time of this incident you were stationed at Pretoria, Northern Transvaal Branch under the command of a Colonel Viktor, one of the applicants and also Major Nel, who is also an applicant.
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And you also heard the evidence that was given by Mr Nel. Do you confirm his evidence?
MR VISSER: I do confirm it, Mr Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: You were then busy with the investigation of the Voortrekkerhoogte incident, which is also referred to in bundle 5, is that correct?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And you were also involved and present with the arrest of Johannes Mnisi, is that correct?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: You were also busy with the interrogation of Johannes Mnisi, is that correct?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And you also heard the evidence of a plastic card that was in the possession, found in the possession of Johannes Mnisi.
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Johannes Mnisi, did he give you his co-operation there?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, he gave us his full co-operation.
MR PRINSLOO: Did the information that Johannes Mnisi gave you, was that followed up on?
MR VISSER: Yes, we did follow up on that, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: That information that he gave you, did you see it as reliable, by going to places and to see if that was the truth or not?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, we accompanied him on a journey where he pointed certain places out to us, which accorded with the information we got from him.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you doubt at all in the credibility of Johannes Mnisi?
MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, was there a rather high or low intensity of attacks by the ANC/SACP alliance on the Republic?
MR VISSER: There was a high intensity, according to me, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And as a result of the information that Johannes Mnisi had given to you, was there any information indicating that further deeds of terror were being planned?
MR PRINSLOO: Amongst others, according to the map that he had with him and the points that he pointed out to us, that he wanted to sabotage all the power lines in the Eastern Transvaal.
MR PRINSLOO: The persons that Johannes Mnisi had contact with, who were commanders, did you see them as high profile or not?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, definitely.
MR PRINSLOO: And would they have operated from Swaziland?
MR VISSER: They were the people who gave the orders, a George and a Rashied.
MR PRINSLOO: Now the person Rashied, according to your knowledge at that stage, was he involved in acts?
MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, we were already aware that he gave orders and that he was involved with the acts of sabotage in the Republic.
MR PRINSLOO: Was he a person that the Security Branch was interested in?
MR VISSER: Definitely, Mr Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: As a result of the information that Johannes Mnisi gave, there was by way of Johannes Mnisi, George was contacted in Swaziland?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: That information that was gathered there, were you busy with this?
MR VISSER: I was involved in there and most of the time that the contact was made I was also present.
MR PRINSLOO: Were arrangements made for a possible meeting in Swaziland?
MR PRINSLOO: And this specific information that was gathered in this way and the co-operation of Mnisi, was this discussed with the high command of the Security Branch?
MR VISSER: We did tell this to Colonel Viktor.
MR PRINSLOO: And were steps planned so that these people could be arrested in Swaziland?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And what did this planning involve?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, the planning was that we would identify the rendezvous place that Johannes Mnisi described to me, that we would wait for the people there.
MR PRINSLOO: This rendezvous place that Johannes Mnisi described to you, was it at that stage known to you?
MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I knew the environment there, but I had to go and identify the place myself. It is however a well-known insurgency route from Swaziland to the RSA, in the environment of Oshoek border post.
MR PRINSLOO: Does this mean it is an area that is far away and that it is only used by smugglers, or by the general public? What is the situation?
MR VISSER: The situation, Chairperson, is that it is a place where you can illegally cross the border and one of the times that we went in, there is a foot path there.
MR PRINSLOO: In other words, you would climb through the wire or over it?
MR VISSER: Yes, and that would be entrance illegally.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you do planning as a result of a command from high command in the Security Branch, and what was this?
MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I - or let me rather say that Major Strydom contacted me. The two of us planned it together, or we together planned by going to Oshoek border post, where on the route that Johannes Mnisi had described to us, entered Swaziland and the place that he had described to me we identified. We then returned and I verified this specific point with Johannes Mnisi.
MR PRINSLOO: Were you as a result of what you had seen and what Johannes Mnisi had told you, satisfied about what the point would be?
MR PRINSLOO: Were steps then taken where you had gone to Oshoek border post for these steps?
MR PRINSLOO: You heard who the people were that were present at these specific steps.
MR PRINSLOO: Do you confirm this?
MR VISSER: I confirm it. I did not mention the name of Schoon. I can't remember if he was present or not.
MR PRINSLOO: And with these specific steps, did you accompany the then Major Steyn, or Strydom, did you accompany him into Swaziland?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And was he accompanied by anyone?
MR VISSER: He was accompanied by a few members of the Task Force.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you climb through the fence and not identify yourself at the border post?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson. We used this - we went into Swaziland by the same route that we described.
MR PRINSLOO: So you went into Swaziland illegally?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you go to this specific point?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And what happened then? Did a motor vehicle arrive?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, Mr Strydom deployed his people there in the terrain where we suspected that the vehicle would stop. The specific time and - at the specific time a light coloured vehicle arrived there and I could see that there were two people sitting inside the vehicle. The vehicle stopped quite a distance away from us. It switched off its lights and the people stayed seated in the car. After a short while the vehicle moved away again.
MR PRINSLOO: These specific steps, that the vehicle arrived at a specific time, switched off its lights and the two sitting - and you noticed two people sitting inside it and also the vehicle, did this accord or not with the information that Johannes Mnisi had given to you and that was organised?
MR VISSER: It accorded completely, Chairperson, we just misjudged the place where the vehicle would stop.
MR PRINSLOO: And what happened after this, after the vehicle departed again?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, we returned to the RSA again.
MR PRINSLOO: And upon your return, did you make any other arrangements?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I went to the Commander who was at that stage at Oshoek border post in a house made of stones. Mr Strydom and his people went to their vehicle and he told me that they would go back to Pretoria.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you have a conversation with Mr Nel again?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson. We spoke with the Commanders, amongst others, Mr Nel as well and the possibility was discussed to try and arrange another appointment the same evening and Major Nel then departed along with Johannes Mnisi to Carolina, to go and make a telephone call.
MR PRINSLOO: And after this, were more steps planned in the same evening?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, that is correct. I accept that it was Colonel Visser who followed Mr Strydom and who stopped them and who asked them to return, and when Mr Nel reported back that they had succeeded in contacting them again, we went in immediately, using the same route as we used the first time. This would be myself, Mr Strydom and the Task Force.
MR PRINSLOO: The Task Force, under the leadership of Major Strydom, were you immediately with them at the scene, or were you behind them?
MR VISSER: Upon our arrival there, Chairperson, Mr Strydom deployed his people, bearing in mind where the vehicle had stopped the first time and I also took in position a bit behind these people.
MR PRINSLOO: If I can just take you back. Before you went in, Major Nel as he was then, gave you further orders and told you what your steps would be in relation to the people that would come in, is that correct?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, he told me that Johannes Mnisi had contacted the people, that he had reported to them that he had seen them, but that he could not get to the vehicle before they depart. That he saw them depart and that he asked them to return again.
MR PRINSLOO: While you were there, what happened then?
MR VISSER: Mr Strydom and his people were deployed. They were in position.
MR PRINSLOO: Did the vehicle arrive?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, a vehicle did arrive.
MR PRINSLOO: And the vehicle that arrived then, where did this vehicle stop?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, more-or-less at the same place where it stopped the first time. A little bit closer to us, if I can remember correctly.
MR PRINSLOO: And the appearance of the vehicle, did it differ?
MR VISSER: It was the same vehicle that stopped there the first time.
MR PRINSLOO: And were there more people in there?
MR VISSER: I could see that there were two people in the vehicle again.
MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, did you have any doubt that the vehicle standing there and the people inside the vehicle were other people, other than the George and Brown that you were interested in?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, it was the same vehicle that stopped there the first time, and I was sure that these were the people that we had to contact.
MR PRINSLOO: And what happened then?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, shortly after the vehicle stopped and it switched off its lights, I heard someone speak in a black language, I also heard a weapon being cocked. At that stage I head movement in front of me and shortly afterwards I heard shots.
MR PRINSLOO: And there was already evidence given that the vehicle caught fire and that there was a strong fire in the vehicle.
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, the vehicle did catch fire.
MR PRINSLOO: Was there any possibility to retrieve any people from the vehicle, or to save them?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, the fire that had started in the vehicle was a very strong fire.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you then withdraw from that vicinity and return?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, we used the same route to withdraw and myself and Mr Strydom reported to our commander about what had happened there.
MR PRINSLOO: After these events, did you at any stage receive any information regarding the steps that had been taken there, who these people were, or did you not?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, via sources we later realised that the two people in the vehicle were a George and a Brown, both MK members and these were their MK names.
MR PRINSLOO: You have already given evidence that you knew the activities of the ANC. Did they normally use MK names instead of their real names?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson. Even amongst each other they only used MK names and their activities were done very clandestinely.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, your purpose to go there was to arrest those people and you know that your steps there were illegal, to go into another country to arrest people. Are you aware of this?
MR VISSER: I am aware of this, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: At that stage you attempted to abduct those people from Swaziland.
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you at any stage foresee that these people could be killed there and that the steps would be illegal in that aspect?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, it was foreseen from the beginning in the planning.
MR PRINSLOO: And evidence has already been given that the people had AK47 East block weapons with them.
MR VISSER: Is this the people that were with us?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And under these circumstances, did you reconcile yourself with the fact that killing these people would be illegal?
MR PRINSLOO: Now during your steps there, did you act there for your own gain?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, I acted in the interest of the RSA and the point of view of the then government.
MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, did you act as a member of the South African Police?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And I understand then that you are saying that you acted with the approval of the South African Government.
MR VISSER: I had no doubt about this, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And the then government was the National Party, whose interest you wanted to promote, is that correct?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And under the circumstances, do you then apply for amnesty for the deeds that you had done there?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And that you acted against a liberation movement, which was the ANC?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And the alliance with the SACP?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And the application - and the circumstances that you had a conspiracy to abduct these people illegally?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And also the vehicle that was destroyed there, was malicious damage to property?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And the offences then would be conspiracy and murder, is that correct?
MR PRINSLOO: And also damage to property and any other lesser offence that might flow from this?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And also the damage that you had caused to the people that there killed there?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, you currently still employed in the service of the police?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And you have the rank of Senior Superintendent, which is a full Colonel?
MR PRINSLOO: And you are the Station Commissioner at Middelburg?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And since 1992, you were tasked with the institution of the new dispensation?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Would you please enlighten the Committee as to this.
MR VISSER: In 1992 I was transferred from the Security Branch - at that stage I was a commander in Eastern Transvaal, to the Divisional, or Regional Office and my responsibility was community policing. I was also tasked with the paragraph 5 negotiations of the Groote Schuur Minute, in order that the elections could continue smoothly. I was also a delegate of the police in the Eastern Transvaal, in the Peace Committee in the Eastern Transvaal. And with the restructuring of the Police Force, I received the post as Regional Commissioner of the Eastern Transvaal.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you accept this post?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And do you accept it as it is presently?
MR VISSER: I accept the current situation. Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Mr Visser, do you have any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Visser, just three matters. Were you not aware that the initial planning entailed that George, MK George would be arrested within the borders of South Africa and that he would be enticed to come to South Africa?
MR VISSER: I was aware of that, Chairperson.
ADV VISSER: But you did not mention this in your evidence, you just mentioned a meeting in Swaziland. As I understood it from the other applicants, it is something that emanated later, that MK George would arrested.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, with the telephone discussions that Mnisi had with George, it seemed that MK George did not want to come to South Africa, and I was aware thereof.
ADV VISSER: And you said that at the scene you heard somebody talk. Colonel Steyn's evidence was that somebody had shouted in some African language. What would you say, what was the position? Did somebody shout or did somebody just talk?
MR VISSER: Chairperson as I recall, something was said in an African language and immediately thereafter a firearm was cocked.
ADV VISSER: Do you say it was loud? Was it said in some panicky ... or was it just some conversation?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I cannot recall any shouting, I could just hear a voice. I also have to add that at that stage I was behind Major Strydom and his men and I was not in the same position as they were.
ADV VISSER: I would just like to ask you, how far behind them were you?
MR VISSER: I was quite a way behind them. It was dark. It is difficult to judge, but approximately five to ten yards behind them.
ADV VISSER: Very well. This weapon which you heard was cocked, where was this weapon cocked according to your observations?
MR VISSER: This came from the vehicle, Chairperson.
ADV VISSER: Did you judge this from this direction which the sound came from?
ADV VISSER: And were you satisfied that the gun was cocked in the vehicle?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
ADV VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, have you got any questions?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I do.
Mr Visser, you have testified that you heard people talking in an African language and then you heard a firearm being cocked. Did this - would you think that these people in the car saw you approaching them?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, I did not make this inference.
MS THABETHE: You wouldn't say that the talking and the cocking of the firearm was in reaction to them seeing you?
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that.
MS THABETHE: You wouldn't say that - it wouldn't be correct to say that the cocking of the firearm and the talking was in reaction to them seeing you approaching them?
MS THABETHE: After you heard the firearm being cocked, who fired the first shot?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm not sure. Shortly afterwards there was a whole lot of shooting.
MS THABETHE: ...(inaudible) to ascertain maybe if you have information as to what led to the shooting in the first place?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I am not entirely sure who fired first and how the command was given to fire, I just heard them firing.
MS THABETHE: ...(inaudible) clarify something as well. You say after the whole incident you and Mr Strydom reported to your commander. Who was your commander? Sorry, I missed that one.
MR VISSER: Colonel Viktor was my commander.
MS THABETHE: Then you also said in your evidence that after the incident you did indeed verify the fact that the people who were attacked were indeed George and Brown. How did you verify this?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, this information I read in security reports.
MS THABETHE: My question to you is, do you know what happened to the bodies of Mr George and Brown?
MR VISSER: I have no idea what had happened to the bodies, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: ...(inaudible) Mr Chair, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Thabethe.
How far were you from where this vehicle had stopped for the second time?
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, we were quite close to the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: If you could give us an estimation.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I do not believe that the persons from the Task Force were further than 20 metres from them. I was a little bit behind them, approximately 25/30 metres.
CHAIRPERSON: You had understood that you would execute an arrest, or to use the other term, an abduction, that you would abduct persons, but in the eye of the police it would be an arrest. This is what was planned?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: But you have wanted to arrest George.
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was any attempt made to arrest them at the scene?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I was not part of the command and the persons who would execute this, that is why I was a little way behind them. As I also state in my statement, I saw or I heard some movement of the persons before me and just shortly afterwards they opened fire.
CHAIRPERSON: They were approximately five metres from you?
CHAIRPERSON: Were you able to see them in the dark?
MR VISSER: I could see - I could not see the persons personally, but I could see the silhouettes of the persons lying in front of me.
CHAIRPERSON: You could see the silhouettes?
MR VISSER: Yes, I could, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you heard some movement, where did the movement come from?
MR VISSER: It came from the persons, from the Task Force members who were lying in front of me.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they lying down you said?
MR VISSER: The ones that I saw were in a lying position, some of them were kneeling down. It depends on the cover that they had at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: They were partially behind cover?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you heard some movement, did you see anything?
MR VISSER: I just saw the red flames that the traces made.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not see whether the Task Force members moved towards the vehicle?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, I did not observe this.
CHAIRPERSON: This movement which you were aware of, would this be that they were readying themselves to shoot?
MR VISSER: I don't know, Chairperson. As I have said, I just saw or heard some movement in front of me and it was shortly afterwards that this weapon was cocked, and shortly afterwards they opened fire.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not see the Task Force members storm the vehicle?
MS THABETHE: Would it be safe to say that no attempt was made to arrest these people in the vehicle?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I cannot comment on this, because at that stage I was a little way behind Major Strydom and he was in command and he had to make the decision as to what would happen there.
CHAIRPERSON: But from your observation, would it be reasonable to say that according to your observation no attempt was made to arrest these persons?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, not an attempt that was visible, so that I could see it. That somebody grabbed somebody or somebody stormed the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: Because you were aware of this and they were about 20 metres from the vehicle. If they had stormed the vehicle and tried to open the doors, you would have seen.
MR VISSER: I did not see this, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So we could accept that this did not happen?
MR VISSER: I did not see any such action, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And could we then accept that the Task Force members were quite some way from the vehicle when they opened fire?
CHAIRPERSON: Not much closer than the 20 metres you approximated?
CHAIRPERSON: According to the evidence of the other applicants it would seem that it is common cause that they fired first.
MR VISSER: That is how I heard it, Chairperson, and I accept it as such. I cannot comment on this.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not open fire yourself?
MR VISSER: No, I did not, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: I would accept that if you could only see silhouettes in front of you, approximately five metres in front of you, then that was the only thing you could see in the vehicle?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You could not establish what sex these persons in the car were?
CHAIRPERSON: You just saw two silhouettes?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson. Chairperson, very close there - or the border post is in the vicinity there and the lighting sheds some light quite a way from there and the vehicle, from where we were the vehicle, the lights were in the background, so I could only see the silhouettes.
CHAIRPERSON: But you could only see the silhouettes in the vehicle?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you could not say whether the voices you heard was a discussion between the persons? And where did these voices come from?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, the personal inference that I made was when they stopped and nobody approached the vehicle and these persons became a little bit tense and somebody said something in a language about this, which was the reason why this weapon was cocked.
CHAIRPERSON: But you could not deduce that they were panicking, or it was a panicking reaction from them, you could only hear somebody say something in an unknown language?
CHAIRPERSON: And you heard something like a weapon being cocked?
MR VISSER: Definitely, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say that these persons, according to your observation, could not see where you were? I'm talking about you now.
MR VISSER: I don't think that they could see us at that stage, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. So your group was not in any danger? For example, that these persons could attack from the vehicle?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, where I was I did not feel that I was in danger, I don't know about the persons who were lying in front of me.
CHAIRPERSON: But it would be logical that if the persons could not see you, then there would not be any risks of them attacking you?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So if your group had not done anything and you had just remained where you were, then this vehicle could have just left the scene?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, yes, but our planning also foresaw that we would want to eliminate these people. So if there was no arrest, I would not want to have seen that these persons just escape and continue with their plans of sabotage.
CHAIRPERSON: Let's say if there was a failed attempt to arrest them, that you would accept that they could be killed?
CHAIRPERSON: But if I understand you correctly this was not the primary objective, the primary objective was to arrest them. We say this in quotation marks, but it was to "arrest" them?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And it would seem that there was no attempt to apprehend them?
MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, in our planning we heard that if we could not arrest these persons, then we would eliminate them.
MR VISSER: ...(inaudible) the persons who would arrive there.
CHAIRPERSON: Anybody who arrived there?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, the two persons or the person by the name of George, whom Mnisi had contacted and that at that stage we knew who gave, he was the one who gave orders with regards to his actions in South Africa.
CHAIRPERSON: So you expected George there?
MR VISSER: Yes, we expected George there.
CHAIRPERSON: If George was at the scene then according to your authority you could have killed him?
MR VISSER: If we could not arrest him, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know whether George was at the scene or not?
MR VISSER: I assumed that it was George.
CHAIRPERSON: But you assumed this, you did not know whether it was him or not.
CHAIRPERSON: I did not know him, Chairperson. I don't know what he looked like and therefore I cannot say, but I assumed at that stage and I believed that that was George.
CHAIRPERSON: But nobody made any attempt to identify the persons in the vehicle?
MR VISSER: So you cannot say who was in the vehicle?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I can only say that after contact was made again and it was conveyed that Mnisi had again contacted George and that George was on his way to the rendezvous point.
CHAIRPERSON: This is what you had heard?
CHAIRPERSON: But we understand each other, that no attempts were made to verify that this was indeed the persons?
CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say it was the same vehicle?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, the vehicle which arrived the first time, we could identify it, it was a light vehicle, it was exactly the same vehicle that arrived the second day.
CHAIRPERSON: What make was it?
CHAIRPERSON: Registration number?
MR VISSER: There is no registration number that I can recall.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you identify the vehicle?
MR VISSER: It was the type of vehicle that I saw the first time.
MR VISSER: Yes, it had a light colour.
CHAIRPERSON: So you just assumed it was the same vehicle?
MR VISSER: I was convinced that it was the same vehicle, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you accepted that it was the same two persons that had arrived before?
MR VISSER: Yes, I did, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what authorisation was given for this act?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, it was conveyed to me by Colonel Viktor, that there was authorisation with the planning which we had done, that these persons would be arrested in Swaziland, or could be eliminated.
CHAIRPERSON: He did not give you any particulars as to where he received this authorisation?
MR VISSER: As to who he received it from? No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: He said it was authorised?
MR VISSER: Yes, he said it was approved.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that some of these cross-border operations were approved by the relevant chief, or head, whether it was the Army or the Minister or the Cabinet or the State President and so forth? Were you aware thereof?
MR VISSER: I was not aware thereof, Chairperson. I would have assumed that it was as such, but I was not aware of it. All that I know is that Colonel Viktor went to Head Office at that stage, where he received approval.
CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know?
MR VISSER: I did not know, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: If there was any political authorisation?
MR VISSER: I was not aware of that, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: At both instances you reported to your commander?
MR VISSER: Yes, I did, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you report at the second instance? That it was a successful operation?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, I told them that we had succeeded to kill these persons.
CHAIRPERSON: Who did you tell them, who were the persons?
MR VISSER: I said the two persons in the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: So you basically told them that there was a vehicle which arrived at the scene with two occupants and these two occupants were killed?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Visser, you state that you read in security reports that indeed it was George and Brown, who had been the victims.
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
ADV GCABASHE: Would these have been reports prepared by people in your structure, your command structure, or would these have been reports from a totally different structure?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, it was reports compiled within the security community, which was received from other sources.
ADV GCABASHE: So this information wasn't sourced from your activity on that day, this information was sourced from a different person or different angle?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson. The reports which I received from the Eastern Transvaal.
ADV GCABASHE: ...(inaudible) and do you say that at no stage did Mnisi tell you who George and Brown were, what their real names were?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, the persons only worked with MK names, I did not know who they were and right up to today I do not know what the real names of George or Brown are.
ADV GCABASHE: And one final question. Nobody got out of the car before the shooting started, or did somebody get out? I'm not sure if I ...
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, I cannot recall that anybody climbed out of the vehicle. As far as my observation went, they remained in the vehicle.
ADV GCABASHE: And the reason you could hear them speak was because their windows were open? I'm just trying to picture the scene.
MR VISSER: I cannot say anything about open windows, I can just recall that I heard some African language.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
ADV DE JAGER: Before you departed to the scene, were you together with Mnisi, to Carolina to make this telephone call?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, Major Nel took him to Carolina to make the calls.
ADV DE JAGER: Which report did you receive back from Nel, as to when the vehicle would arrive or who would be in the vehicle? What did he report back to you?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, Mr Nel told us that he succeeded in contacting George in Mbabane and Mnisi told him that he must return to the rendezvous point and he would be there.
ADV DE JAGER: Did Mnisi at that stage supply you with a name as to who he was talking to?
MR VISSER: He said he was talking to George.
ADV DE JAGER: He spoke to George. And was this the name that he initially gave in his information? That this was the person who sent him into the country?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson, this was his contact person, George, and every time in previous discussions it was with George.
ADV DE JAGER: This path where the vehicle had stopped, is this a main road that is used by many vehicles?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, it is a dirt road and where the vehicle had stopped was a U-turn, you cannot go any further. You cannot go any further with the vehicle.
ADV DE JAGER: There were no lights at the scene itself?
ADV DE JAGER: I am a little stupid, how do you arrest a person that sits in a vehicle? Did you assume that they were armed?
MR VISSER: We assumed in our planning that they would be armed.
ADV DE JAGER: And you heard this rifle being cocked?
MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: Then how would you arrest them?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, that is exactly why we used trained personnel from the Task Force to execute this And this was Mr Strydom and his people's responsibility, as to how they would go about this. My task was to take them in.
ADV DE JAGER: Why did you decide to use specialised persons, why did you not execute the arrests yourself?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, it was in a foreign country, and from my side I would say that we could not take the risk of anything going wrong and that is why we used trained personnel. And because we also knew that these two persons whom we wanted to arrest were highly trained MK members.
ADV DE JAGER: Were you afraid to arrest them, or did you see it as dangerous to arrest them?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I would not have seen myself as trained enough to, under these circumstances, to go and arrest trained people myself.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I was a member of the Security Branch then, who had the task to interrogate people and to do intelligence work and there were more trained, more professional people available.
ADV DE JAGER: Trained in which sense, to handle dangerous situation? Or why could you not go yourself? In your life you probably had arrested many people.
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson, but it involved specific planning and the feeling was that we would have to use specialised people.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you have any information about which weapons they possibly would have in their possession?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, we only knew that MK members usually were armed and that is why it was also incorporated in the planning, that the people would be armed.
ADV DE JAGER: And you say that in your order it was foreseen that they should either be arrested and if they could not be arrested they should be eliminated?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mnisi, he was a trained MK member, wasn't he?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And he was arrested a few days before this happened?
MR VISSER: A few weeks. It don't know if it was two or three weeks, but it was a while back.
CHAIRPERSON: But he was himself a trained MK member with a high profile?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you took him to a telephone and he spoke to someone?
MR VISSER: You are now talking about the evening when we could not succeed the first time.
CHAIRPERSON: And it looks as if you contacted twice.
MR VISSER: We phoned a few time from Pretoria, to arrange this contact and that evening when we moved back, before we went in the second time, I'm just aware that Major Nel took him to Carolina where he phoned. I'm not aware of whether he phoned once, twice or three times, but it was reported back that he had contacted George.
CHAIRPERSON: Good. Then may I misunderstood you. Mnisi then at an earlier occasion, made telephone calls or a telephone call and organised or tried to get George to come to the RSA?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And when it appeared as if this was not working, he was asked to organise to meet George on Swaziland territory at a point where you could then get hold of George?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So Mnisi spoke over the telephone with someone, with George, and did he tell you that this is George that I'm talking to?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, we had the conversation monitored and we could also hear what the other person was saying.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were listening in?
MR VISSER: One of the members were listening in for us.
MR VISSER: I don't know what happened there, because I was not present there. Mr Nel took him there.
CHAIRPERSON: So he contacted someone in Carolina and he said then that George would come.
MR VISSER: He phoned to say that I missed you with the appointment and I'm on my way and you must come back to the rendezvous point?
MR VISSER: That is how I heard Mr Nel tell me.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were all under the impression that he was then talking to George?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And that is also what he told you?
MR VISSER: I accept it like that. I was not there, Chairperson, but that is the message that I had received from Mr Nel.
CHAIRPERSON: It would then appear from what he had said, that you accepted that George would be at the scene.
MR VISSER: I was convinced that it was going to be George.
CHAIRPERSON: And that is what Mnisi told you?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And were you under the impression that George himself had a higher profile in the MK than Mnisi?
MR VISSER: Undoubtedly, Chairperson, because this was his contact person and this was also the person that sent him the orders and this was also the person to which he had to report back.
CHAIRPERSON: So Mnisi had enticed a high MK member to a place where you could arrest him?
CHAIRPERSON: And you were convinced? And why were you so convinced that this plan would work?
MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, according to the planning that we had done, I accepted that the plan would work.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were largely dependant on Mnisi?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And is co-operation?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So you believed that you would, that you could get a high profile MK member to lure a higher profile MK member and that you could then arrest that person?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, that is correct, but the word "lure" is maybe not correct, he had to establish contact with the person because he was in the RSA, he was not aware of the fact that this person was arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: And he had to report this information back to George and this was a meeting had to take place. And Mnisi then succeeded to let George come to this specific point twice?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you. Mr Visser, the question that was asked to you by the Honourable Chairperson, when that weapon was cocked in the vehicle, the one that you heard, would it have been safe for the Task Force members to stand up to go to the vehicle, taking into account that a weapon had been cocked?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I would not have personally approached such a vehicle.
MR PRINSLOO: You relied here on the information of Mnisi and if those people had become aware that there were people who wanted to arrest them, what would the position regarding Mnisi have been?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, the information that we had got from Mnisi, and the co-operation ...
MR PRINSLOO: Would these people have been able to start another operation?
MR VISSER: They would then have done other planning, of which we would then not have been aware at that stage.
MR PRINSLOO: You heard a voice from the vehicle, could you tell if it was a man or a woman?
MR VISSER: It sounded to me like a black man's voice.
MR PRINSLOO: After these persons in this vehicle were shot, whom you still today believe were George and Brown, did the name George ever again appear in your security investigations?
MR VISSER: Not that he was alive, Chairperson, just that he was in the vehicle and that he was killed in the vehicle.
MR PRINSLOO: Just to get some clarity as it appears that there is a misunderstanding. What Mnisi had to come and do, his order in the country was with this map as already given evidence to by Major Nel, and this information that Mnisi had to get in the Republic, he had to give back to George. Is that correct?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And it is as a result of this that Mnisi contacted George, where there was listened in on, is that correct?
MR PRINSLOO: And it was the arrangement that Mnisi would meet them there to do the report-back at that point, is that correct?
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, I did not take something up. I don't know if I did it, I just want to confirm with the witness. The declaration that appears and also what is referred to as the political motivation, which is Annexure B. Do you confirm this?
MR PRINSLOO: And also Exhibit R?
MR PRINSLOO: And then there was also reference made to Exhibit A. Did you see this and do you concur with this?
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo.
Mr Visser, what I had forgotten to ask you is, Mnisi, was he an askari or what was he?
MR VISSER: At that stage he was held in relation to Section 29.
CHAIRPERSON: In relation to the Internal Security Act?
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson. Shortly after that he was released, but at that stage he was still held.
CHAIRPERSON: So before this occasion he hadn't done any work for you, as someone helping you or as an informer?
MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, he was still in terms of Section 29 and under these circumstances he gave his co-operation to us.
CHAIRPERSON: So he was never charged?
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Prinsloo, is there anything else?
MR PRINSLOO: Just one question that flows from this.