CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser, I think it is back to you.
MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, I call Mr Steenberg. Chairperson, for the last four witnesses, unfortunately we don't have statements to place before you, I do apologise for that, but believe me if I had the time, I would have done that.
DANIëL JOHAN STEENBERG: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Steenberg, you are an applicant for amnesty for an operation that was executed across the Swaziland border which we know happened on the 8th of December 1981, is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Your application appears in Bundle 4, page 822 to 834, is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Apart from what we will discuss here in evidence, do you confirm the correctness of the contents of your application?
MR STEENBERG: I do, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Paragraph 7(a) and 7(b), you had written there
where you were asked whether you were a supporter of a political organisation and to name the organisation and in which capacity you were a supporter, you said "not applicable", what is the precise situation there?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, I was a member of the Security Forces and the South African Police and from this I was a-political, that I was not an active member of any political party, but indeed of the Police Force and as such the government of the day and this was the National Party.
MR VISSER: So paragraph 7(a) must read National Party and (b) should read supporter?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You have studied Exhibit A which serves before the Committee, is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Have you studied it carefully?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, I have Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Are there any parts thereof that you believe is not applicable to you except for the reference to Lesotho and Botswana?
MR STEENBERG: Where I was never in these countries, I reconcile myself with this Exhibit.
MR VISSER: You request that the evidence therein be incorporated with your evidence?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Where you mention your Police career, you have set it out there, were you ever a member of the Security Branch?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR STEENBERG: This was before 1997, between 1986 and 1997 and then after 1987 I was a member of the Security Branch.
MR VISSER: And then you were based at Soweto?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: During this incident, were you attached to the Task Force?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What was the purpose and the activities of the Special Task Force of the Police?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson we were trained to execute high risk operations, hostage situations, rescue situations, the finding of bodies in dams and such.
MR VISSER: So you were required to be very fit?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And if we refer to operations which involved arrests, they had you for these?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, I think because of the fact that we were trained, as I - how can I say - to move quickly, move quietly and the fitness level, and I mean because we know each other and at times when sensitive arrests had to be executed or where there was a high risk, we were possibly the best choice and we are still the best choice.
MR VISSER: You do not serve in the Police Force any more?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You have heard the evidence of Gen Strydom?
MR STEENBERG: I have Chairperson.
MR VISSER: In so far as it affects you, do you concur with his evidence?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, I do Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can we then arrive at the day of the incident? Can you recall, or can I ask in this way, was there any reason why you personally were sent to the Eastern Transvaal?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, if I can recall correctly, I was part of the support group during that time.
MR VISSER: And the other members who accompanied you?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, they would have accompanied me as a standby group.
MR VISSER: And then as I understand it, you received an order to move to the Eastern Transvaal?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson. This was a type of scramble order.
MR VISSER: What do you mean by that?
MR STEENBERG: A scramble is a matter of that one carries out your order as quickly as possible and then that you move to the place where you were called to or where you were sent to.
MR VISSER: Very well, but how would you know what type of weapons and clothing you could take?
MR STEENBERG: We would receive such an order from the Commander and he would inform us as to what type of weaponry and clothing and such we had to take with, whether it was a day operation or a night operation or whatever the nature of it would be.
MR VISSER: If your Commander wanted you to wear camouflage, what would he have told you?
MR STEENBERG: He would have said "listen, take along camouflage" and then we would have worn this.
MR VISSER: And the weapons, with regard to weapons if he wanted you to take weapons which could not be traced back, Eastern Block weapons, very well. You received your instructions from whom on this particular day?
MR STEENBERG: I cannot recall exactly from whom we received the instruction, but it came from General Strydom, Captain Strydom at that time.
MR VISSER: And then you left for the Eastern Transvaal and how did you travel there?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, it was a small bus or two, I cannot recall correctly.
MR VISSER: And when you arrived at the border, was it still light or was it dark already?
MR STEENBERG: If I can recall correctly, it was dark.
MR VISSER: Did you meet Strydom there?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Were you at the border post with the other members of the Security Branch who were present there?
MR STEENBERG: No, not at all Chairperson, we were at a different location.
MR VISSER: Did you receive the information there?
MR STEENBERG: That is so Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What did this information entail?
MR STEENBERG: It was conveyed to us that a vehicle would come to a rendezvous point in Swaziland.
MR VISSER: Was this vehicle described to you?
MR STEENBERG: Yes Chairperson.
MR VISSER: By means of colour and model and so forth?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson and that in the vehicle, the occupants would be two trained terrorists whom we had to apprehend, but it was also said to us that if these persons would resist and put our lives in any danger, and then we had to eliminate them.
MR VISSER: So the first priority was to arrest them and if not possible, eliminate?
MR STEENBERG: Definitely Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did all of you move into Swaziland?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What is your recollection as to how far did you move into Swaziland?
MR STEENBERG: If I recall correctly Chairperson, I would reconcile myself with what Commissioner Strydom had said and we moved about a kilometre into Swaziland, into the territory.
MR VISSER: I understand that this was a gravel road where you waited for this vehicle?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You did not move through the border during the normal, legal means?
MR STEENBERG: No Chairperson, we crossed over the fence.
MR VISSER: The persons who accompanied there, do you recall who they were or some of them?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, it was Commissioner Strydom and Mr Visser, Gert Visser was also part of the group, Danie le Roux, Dercksen as well as Hope, Moolman, I can specifically remember them and I don't know if I mentioned his name, but Hope.
MR VISSER: Yes, you have mentioned Hope. Do you recall if the deceased Prinsloo was there?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct, he was also there.
MR VISSER: There may have been other members whom you cannot recall?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Because there were apparently between eight and twelve of your Task Force members?
MR STEENBERG: It was closer to eight, but it could be more Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: I understand that he confirms the evidence of the others and he confirms his application, maybe it is not necessary or we could ask some questions when we would want some more information, but if you feel that you have to give us all the details ...
MR VISSER: Chairperson, this is just in regard to questions that has been asked beforehand and which is why I thought that I have to go into more detail with this witness, but if you are satisfied, then I could go much quicker. Thank you Chairperson. You then moved through the bush and you arrived at some place where this road was?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What happened there?
MR STEENBERG: We hid ourselves there and we waited for the vehicle to arrive. The vehicle arrived, I cannot recall how long afterwards. It stopped some distance from us, so that it was impossible for us to approach the vehicle properly and to execute the arrest and thereafter the vehicle departed and we withdrew.
MR VISSER: If I understand correctly, you did nothing, you just remained hidden?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Was there any specific plan as to who should do what at the scene?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, it would be impossible to do this because one did not know where exactly you would hide yourself in terms of where the vehicle stopped and therefore in other words, we decided that the persons closer to the vehicle, if they were close enough, they would approach the vehicle and execute the arrest. So it was impossible to determine who would do what beforehand?
MR VISSER: And the location, was it a place which was identified to you by or Strydom or Visser or both of them?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: It is not that you had to search for this place?
MR STEENBERG: No Chairperson, we went straight to this location.
MR VISSER: When you saw the vehicle leaving and then we know that you returned back, across the border, you climbed into your vehicles and you returned to Pretoria?
MR STEENBERG: Yes Chairperson, we returned to Pretoria.
MR VISSER: Then we know that the vehicles were caught up with and you were stopped and you were told to return?
MR STEENBERG: That is quite correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And then a second time, you returned to the same location?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson, there were just some amendments as to how we positioned ourselves, which was over a broad area because of the fact that we saw that it was impossible to say that the vehicle would stop here exactly and therefore we covered a larger area and we amended our positions somewhat.
MR VISSER: And the vehicle came there?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, the same vehicle arrived there.
MR VISSER: Can you recall the make of that vehicle?
MR STEENBERG: If I recall correctly, it was a blue Golf 1. At that stage the Citi Golf was not yet in circulation, but I may be incorrect, but I think I am correct when I say it was a blue Golf or I say Citi Golf, but it was a light Golf Mark 1.
MR VISSER: That is correct, a Golf. Where did it come to a stop this time?
MR STEENBERG: A little closer than the previous instance.
MR VISSER: Yes, but this time you were covering a more wider area?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What happened then when the vehicle stopped?
MR STEENBERG: When he switched off the lights and we started moving closer but what I can think is that he must have suspected something. There was this loud, I wouldn't say a loud shouting, but there was this shout and some weapon was cocked and the shooting ensued.
MR VISSER: Who cocked the weapons, one of you?
MR STEENBERG: No, our weapons were already cocked because one does not go into such a situation without your weapon being cocked.
MR VISSER: The cocking of the weapon, the sound came from the direction of the vehicle, so you said that you started moving?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, we started moving to get closer to the vehicle to execute the arrest.
MR VISSER: So you moved closer to the vehicle?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: You were there, do you think it is possible that one or both of these persons in the vehicle, could have seen you?
MR STEENBERG: It is difficult to say but I suspect that they must have seen something or must have heard something and became suspicious.
MR VISSER: Very well, Mr Visser says that he heard you moving, maybe the persons in the vehicle also heard you, but whatever the case may be, we will not speculate. When you heard this weapon being cocked, how long thereafter did the command come to open fire?
MR STEENBERG: It was basically immediately because I believe that our lives were endangered at that stage, because we did not know whether these persons had seen us or whatever the position would be. So in other words to me this element of surprise was not on our side any more and we had lost that edge.
MR VISSER: So the surprise element had been lost and you were convinced at that stage?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, I was Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you know which weapons they might have had in the vehicle?
MR STEENBERG: No, I don't believe so, but if one looks at the normal weaponry that we find at trained persons, it could be anything but whether it was handweapons or automatic firearms, the danger was still there that one of us could die.
MR VISSER: Where exactly when one has regard for where the car stopped the first time, with regard to the front or the back or left or right, where were you exactly?
MR STEENBERG: If one, how can I say, if one looks from the driver's side of the vehicle, I was on the right front of the vehicle.
MR VISSER: Can you recall where the other members were?
MR STEENBERG: I just know that Mr Hope was to the left of me and Mr Strydom was also on my left, but further left.
MR VISSER: Yes, further left. How far were you from the vehicle when it stopped?
MR STEENBERG: If I have to say it was approximately between 15 to 20 metres.
MR VISSER: And this was the area which you had to cover to get to the vehicle if there was an arrest?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did you move forward already?
MR STEENBERG: Well, we started moving forward.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And when the command came to open fire or whatever you say when you want your people to fire, did you open fire?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, I did Chairperson, I opened fire.
MR STEENBERG: Yes, on the occupants of the vehicle and the vehicle itself.
MR VISSER: According to you it is possible that you might have hit some of them?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What had happened to the vehicle then?
MR STEENBERG: Because of the tracer bullets which we used, the vehicle caught alight. The fire within a vehicle is quite intense and the intensity reaches a quite high intensity, in other words we could not get to the vehicle in time to rescue anybody from the vehicle and the vehicle burnt.
MR VISSER: You are saying that the tracer bullets set the vehicle alight at such, in such a manner that the vehicle started burning seriously very quickly?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: When you realised this, what did you do then?
MR VISSER: So you withdrew and you went home?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: If you wanted to eliminate these persons, what would you have done then?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, it is my judgement that the first time when that vehicle had stopped, it was easy to fire from a distance and to shoot the persons in the vehicle. I mean we would have shot at it or attacked it the first time.
MR VISSER: And in any case if you wanted to shoot at them, you would have moved closer?
MR STEENBERG: No Chairperson, we were close enough to fire on the vehicle. It would have not served any purpose if you wanted to move closer to fire on the vehicle?
MR VISSER: With regard to you, you apply for amnesty for the illegal crossing of the border and your participation in the attempted abduction and the killing of these persons, is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you yourself have no other information with regard to the identity of these persons, you acted on information which you received via Captain Strydom, which he received from the Security Branch?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: When you went in you knew that the possibility existed that these people would resist and that circumstances would arise that a shooting would take place?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you also realise that it is possible that persons, not only your own people, but the other person or persons could be killed?
MR STEENBERG: Definitely Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you reconcile yourself with that?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, I did Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, that is the evidence of this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Visser. Mr Prinsloo, any questions?
MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Just two Mr Chair, thank you. Mr Steenberg, you have testified that you are applying for attempted abduction, in your own words how can you say you attempted to abduct these people before you actually shot at them?
MR STEENBERG: Because we went to arrest these people and I think that the arrest if I can put it as such, was not a legal arrest, because it was to be executed on another country's territory and therefore I see it as an abduction in the correct terminology.
MS THABETHE: My last question is what would you say gave rise to you shooting the victims instead of arresting them? What gave rise to that change of plan so to say?
MR STEENBERG: Because we heard the weapon being cocked and then we thought that a shooting would ensue and that shots would be fired on members of the group, that is why we opened fire.
MS THABETHE: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Thabethe. Where you took up your position, were you hidden?
MR STEENBERG: In the grass, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were either hunched down or you were laying down?
MR STEENBERG: I was laying down.
CHAIRPERSON: So one could not see you so easily?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You say when the vehicle stopped and they switched off the lights ...
MR STEENBERG: And I moved forward in a hunched position, on my haunches.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you move forward?
MR STEENBERG: I was on my haunches, in a haunched position.
CHAIRPERSON: So one or two movements forward?
MR STEENBERG: It is difficult to describe it, but if one has to say that it is a type of bent down and crawl closer.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive an order?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, there could be no order because otherwise - not a verbal command.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you know what to do?
MR STEENBERG: I mean, I cannot say it is part of the training, but it is part of our attitude towards each other that I saw that this was the time to move forward now and to approach the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: What plan did you have
MR STEENBERG: I don't understand the question Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What would you do there at the scene?
MR STEENBERG: We would have approached the vehicle, opened the doors and if the doors were locked, we would have broken the windows and we would have grabbed the persons within the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: How would you go about doing all of this? There were no signs, no agreed sign or Mr Strydom did not tell you what to do at what stage, you just knew that you would approach the vehicle?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson, by nature of the situation it is very difficult to say beforehand that, I mean, how can I say, to give a specific sign in terms of a verbal sign, it is just not done. When the vehicle's lights were turned off, I realised that now we must move closer.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Strydom not tell you "look at me", he did not say anything like that?
MR STEENBERG: I mean Chairperson, it was dark, we could not see him.
CHAIRPERSON: So you had absolutely no idea as to who would do what to initiate this process?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, the persons closer to the vehicle, that was the plan, that the persons closer to the vehicle would start approaching the vehicle as soon as it stopped.
CHAIRPERSON: So at some stage you decided that very well, you will move closer?
MR STEENBERG: No, it is not at some stage, this is shortly after the lights were switched off and we decided to move closer.
CHAIRPERSON: But nobody told you to move closer, nobody gave you any sign, you decided that I will move closer?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you approached, how many of you?
MR STEENBERG: This was in the process of moving closer, I would not say very much closer, it is possible about three or four metres that I have moved forward. I cannot precisely recall at this stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this afterwards, after you moved the three or four metres that you heard the voice?
MR STEENBERG: I was in the process of starting to move closer, when I heard this voice and I heard this weapon being cocked.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so you started? You were not really moving closer?
MR STEENBERG: It is difficult to say Chairperson, whether I started moving or whether I moved closer, how can I say that was about two metres, three metres I started moving closer, in a reasonably hunched position to get closer to the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: So you moved and then you heard this voice?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you heard the weapon?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, I heard the weapon being cocked.
CHAIRPERSON: And then, what did you do then?
MR STEENBERG: Shots were fired from my left hand side and then I assumed or, but, I mean this was Mr Strydom ...
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom had started shooting and you started shooting, so you heard some shots being fired and then you also opened fire, there was no command to open fire?
MR STEENBERG: No Chairperson. Well, there could have been a command, but the surprise element, but I cannot specifically recall it. If I recall correctly then I went upon the shots that were fired from my left hand side.
CHAIRPERSON: So in other words there was no command?
MR STEENBERG: I cannot recall it now, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So what is your evidence actually about this aspect of the order?
MR STEENBERG: I cannot remember it Mr Chairperson, that there was a real verbal order, that Mr Strydom would have said "fire". I mean if I have to say now, then my evidence now is that I went on the shots that emanated from my left hand side.
CHAIRPERSON: That is what you remember now, you don't remember anything else, no order?
MR STEENBERG: I cannot remember an order now, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So based on what you are saying to us now, you shot based on shots that were fired on your left hand side?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, basically that was a sign if I can put it that way and I acted upon this.
CHAIRPERSON: And if it weren't for these shots, then you would not have shot personally?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Were there shots fired at you from the vehicle?
MR STEENBERG: Not as far as I can say Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Could you see into the vehicle?
MR STEENBERG: It was dark. After the vehicle had started to burn, I think I can say yes, but not beforehand.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you see then?
MR STEENBERG: If I can remember now then I can say that there were two people occupying the vehicle. As a result of the fire, I can now say that according to me, there were two people occupying the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: Could there have been more?
MR STEENBERG: I saw two. Unless someone was laying down or something of that matter, I cannot say that there were more people, I can only say that there were two.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any other questions from the panel?
ADV GCABASHE : Just one Mr Chairman, the people in the car were trying to get out of it, they were screaming as you observed the car burn?
MR STEENBERG: No, I did not see something of that nature.
ADV GCABASHE : What did you see, you know watching the car as it burnt?
MR STEENBERG: I saw two people in the vehicle, according to me they were hit by the fire, the firearm's fire and according to me, there were no attempts by them to get out of the vehicle.
ADV GCABASHE : So there was no movement in fact in the vehicle at all?
MR STEENBERG: No, not discernible movement, no.
ADV GCABASHE : Tell me, the first time the car came, when you aborted the mission, did they switch off their lights as well then?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, yes, they did. They waited around a few minutes, whereafter they left. I cannot say how long they were there unfortunately because you know, time ...
ADV GCABASHE : But on that occasion, you did not start moving forward to try and get closer?
MR STEENBERG: No, because they were too far.
ADV GCABASHE : Had you been told that the car must be at a particular place before you start moving forward?
MR STEENBERG: No, I think what, no, no, that wasn't it, but according to each and everyone's own how can I say, perception, the vehicle was too far to attempt to move forward and according to me, there might have been, you know the people might have seen one in the attempt.
ADV GCABASHE : And there was just grass in the area, flat land, no rocks, no trees, it is just a flat area?
MR STEENBERG: If I remember correctly, it was grass land with sort of low, very low bushes. How can I say a type of a shrubbery type situation.
ADV GCABASHE : Do you recall how long it took you to come back on the second occasion, were you away about an hour, were you away about two hours? Just a rough recollection?
MR STEENBERG: Chairperson, that is very difficult to recall because really, no, I cannot recall, because we took some time walking out, we packed our stuff into the vehicles, eventually I think that Mr Strydom went and, I can't remember, but I think he went and reported the fact that we have returned and that we are going to Pretoria and thereafter we started to drive. It might have been that we were on the road for 20 minutes or so, I really cannot, it is very difficult.
ADV GCABASHE : You are just estimating?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, it is very difficult to make an estimation on that.
ADV GCABASHE : And from the planning side, what you had been told about these two persons, they were essentially be coming from one of the major towns, you have no clue as to where they were coming from?
MR STEENBERG: No, no, unfortunately no.
MR STEENBERG: I do not have any clue.
ADV GCABASHE : Any detail? Thank you, thank you Chair.
ADV DE JAGER: You were a well practised Unit?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you practice together, did you know how you reacted with one another, if one person does something another person does something else or how did you practise this in?
MR STEENBERG: Mr Chairperson, I think at the time of the training it is very intensive training and we work together and we practice together every day and it is as Mr De Jager says, Mr Chairperson, we knew one another very, very well.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Visser?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson. In this whole matter, would it be correct to say that you were just acting on orders?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: I am not specifically talking about when you fired shots, but in general, to go there, to take part in this project and everything like that, you were told to do that and you did that?
MR STEENBERG: That is absolutely correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you believe that what you did was in the interest of the country?
MR STEENBERG: Absolutely Mr Chairperson.
MR STEENBERG: To be able to take preventative action, because if we could arrest the people, then as the other witnesses said, then they could be interrogated so that other steps could be prevented and so that we could then prevent loss of life.
MR VISSER: Steps in the revolutionary onslaught?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Mr De Jager questioned you about this, but I just want to ask you, in your group who were there at the time, did you previously have steps in which you participated, steps of any nature where you got to know each other?
MR VISSER: And was that also part of your specialist training that you do not wait for orders, your training was of such a nature that you knew how to act on situations?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
ADV DE JAGER: Flowing from this, in such a situation where no order is given or no verbal order is given, would you shoot before your Commander shot?
MR STEENBERG: It depends because due to the nature of it, it depends on the situation. If it was of such a nature that I am the person closest to the vehicle then the first shots would quite possibly have come from me. I think that one would have shot if our own lives were in danger and if I had been the closest to the vehicle.
ADV DE JAGER: Would you not normally wait for the General to shoot or the Commander to shoot first or for them to give the sign to shoot?
MR STEENBERG: It is impossible to do that in such a situation because due to the nature of the matter, the General might not be in a position to make such a decision or to say "good, my people's lives are now in danger", or whatever the case may be, it is impossible and in this case, according to me, it was such a matter and it is not like this in every case. It can't be like this in every case.
ADV DE JAGER: But you did not fire first in any case?