CHAIRPERSON: It's Friday the 21st May 1999. We are continuing with the amnesty application of Coetzee and others in respect of the Simelane matter.
Mr Lamey you were still re-examining.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: (cont)
Mr Veyi when we yesterday adjourned I was asking you some questions around the time when the lady Simelane was kept at Norwood. Can I ask you this, were you and Mr Selamolela or just explain, how did it work, what was your role at Norwood, you specifically, what did you have to do?
MR VEYI: In Norwood she was questioned, Nokuthula was asked questions so we were interpreting for her.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, I haven't heard anything, on which channel are we? Sorry, could the interpreter just repeat? I couldn't pick it up?
INTERPRETER: Nokuthula was asked questions in Norwood and they were interpreting for her.
MR LAMEY: Who did the interpretation?
MR VEYI: If I was there I would do that job.
MR LAMEY: Okay. Apart from the interpretation what other functions did you have there at Norwood?
MR VEYI: In Norwood it was when she was interrogated and tortured and then I took part in that.
MR LAMEY: No, I know that you said that but what was your, I would say, the reason why you had to go to Norwood, you and perhaps also the Black members?
MR VEYI: It is because she was arrested by our unit so we went there to guard her.
MR LAMEY: So your role was actually to guard her but during also the times that you were there she was interrogated and assaulted and you participated in that, is that correct?
MR LAMEY: Now on each occasion that you were at Norwood was Selamolela also there or were their times that you would be there with other Black members and Selamolela not there? How did it work?
MR VEYI: It was working like this, sometimes I would be with Selamolela and then sometimes I would be with someone else, we were changing shifts, maybe Selamolela with the other person, I would not be there and then I would take another person except Selamolela.
MR LAMEY: Can you more or less remember on each occasion that you were at Norwood, how many members of the unit in total including the White and the Black members were on average present during the interrogation?
MR VEYI: All those who have given testimony would be present except for Superintendent Williams, I don't remember him being there. The Black members, it would be myself, Sergeant Gadebe, Manuel, Strongman, Sefuti, Inspector Selamolela, Peter Lengene, those are the people that I still remember.
MR LAMEY: Ja look, what I want to specifically know is you said that Selamolela was not there on each occasion that you were there. Was the situation also that there was shifts and the members that were there on each shift differed from time to time?
MR VEYI: Yes I do agree with that, we were having shifts.
MR LAMEY: Now what I want to know is, on a particular shift when not everybody was there, I just want to know on average how many of the members, White and Black were on average present during a shift?
MR VEYI: There was no specific number of how many people should be there. I don't remember how it worked but there was no specific number.
MR LAMEY: Did the numbers differ on the shifts, would there sometimes be more than other times?
MR VEYI: Yes I can put it that way, for example, may I would be present together with Superintendent Pretorius. Maybe the following day I would not be there and then the people who were there might say that Pretorius was also there, it was working like that.
ADV DE JAGER: Can you remember whether Selamolela was at any stage present while you were there? You worked two shifts there as far as we know?
MR VEYI: The person that I still remember when I started going there, I went there with Sergeant Sefuti, I mentioned Selamolela's name because he was one of the members of the unit. If I still remember well I first went there with Sergeant Sefuti.
MR LAMEY: Alright Mr Veyi I want you now to listen carefully and also to - because it's important. I know that you're saying that you know about all the members of the unit or most of them were there during the time but is it so that you know that because it is also, it has come to your knowledge that the others were there as a result of the talking but not everybody was present on each occasion that you were at Norwood, who you saw physically with your eyes, with your own eyes?
MR VEYI: Yes I can put it that way.
MR LAMEY: Now if you think back and you try to visualise the situation with your own eyes each time that you were at Norwood, was Selamolela on - you said you were on two shifts, is that correct?
MR LAMEY: Was he there on both the shifts or was he on one of the shifts or can't you say?
MR LAMEY: Now the assaults that took place while you were there at Norwood, did the assaults take place on each shift that you were there or how did it work?
MR VEYI: Yes when I was present she was assaulted.
MR LAMEY: Was she assaulted in your presence?
MR LAMEY: Who, if I may put it this way, who led the assaults, who initiated it, who started in on each occasion?
MR VEYI: We were following everything that was done by Superintendent Coetzee.
MR LAMEY: No, I'm asking who started the assaults, who initiated it?
MR VEYI: It was Superintendent Coetzee.
MR LAMEY: And are you saying then the other members then also followed and participated?
MR LAMEY: Now you said in your evidence that, when you were asked questions, that Selamolela also participated in the assaults at Norwood. I want you to think carefully and you've just recently said that - sorry, I forgot now actually what you said, let me just rephrase the question. Can you picture in your mind with your eyes seeing Mr Selamolela participating in any assault when at any stage that you were at Norwood or are you speaking in general terms that Coetzee would lead the assault and the other members who were present also joined in and that is why you include Selamolela. In other words are you including Selamolela in a general assumption that everybody participated or can you remember or visualise him assaulting the lady clearly.
MR VEYI: I can say that I said that it was in general.
MR LAMEY: So you include him in general terms, you cannot really specifically say whether he did assault her in any way or not at Norwood, is that correct?
ADV DE JAGER: But Mr Lamey I've got this problem and I don't want to intervene, if that's the position how can we then accept that the other members took part who he mentioned if he is talking in general?
MR LAMEY: May I just ask perhaps a follow up question on this? At Norwood, if you think back are there any individual, right, you said you yourself participated in the assault and you assaulted, I can understand that because you can remember what you yourself did. Now on the other members, can you remember and visualise who of them when you were there assaulted her, that you can clearly remember?
MR VEYI: As I've already said I can't remember who I was with in a certain day but when she was assaulted in front of me or in my presence I can say that we were all taking part.
MR LAMEY: Now but is any individuals role in the assault apart from yourself that you could remember, seeing with your own eyes? That's now apart from yourself?
MR VEYI: Yes I've already said, I don't know how to explain this, when we were there with those people that were there even though I can't remember who I was with at a particular time or a specific time, we were all taking part in assaulting her.
MR LAMEY: Were there times during these shift sessions that she was not assaulted?
MR VEYI: Yes there was a time when she would be given a photo album to page through that photo album and then she would be given some time to rest for a little while.
MR LAMEY: Now just to come back here you say everybody participated but you can't mention any individual including Selamolela, you can't - you speak in general terms, in other words there was assaults by almost everybody but you don't ...(intervention).
MR VISSER: No, no, no, not almost everybody, by everybody. My learned friend is slanting the evidence, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, then it's my mistake if I expressed myself wrongly, I will then rephrase it.
You stated that she was assaulted by everybody, is that correct? In other words do I take it that by saying everybody, you talk about the group?
MR VEYI: Yes that is correct. The people who were there when I was present, they were all assaulting her.
MR LAMEY: But do I understand you correctly, you cannot single out an individual and say he assaulted and that one assaulted and that one assaulted by calling them by their name?
MR VEYI: I'd like to make an example. If I still remember well when I started going to that place I went with Sergeant Sefuti. We would be there when she was interrogated. Superintendent Coetzee would be the one who was the leader of the team so when we were there everybody that was present would assault her.
ADV GCABASHE: Just help me here. So you recall you were there that first time Sefuti was there and now you're saying Coetzee was there? Can you recall going through that group who else may have been there? Are you able to do that?
MR VEYI: Sergeant Pretorius was also there and Manuel, but Manuel was one of those who was always there guarding and Strongman.
ADV GCABASHE: Now these people were definitely there that first time you went there, is this what you are saying?
MR VEYI: Yes and they took part in assaulting her.
MR LAMEY: And Selamolela? We're talking about the first time?
MR LAMEY: I'm saying that I only remember those that I've already mentioned. When I went there for the second time I can't remember who were there.
MR LAMEY: You say the second time you can't remember who was there with at all with you?
ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get one other thing right? Are you saying that each time you were there and you participated in the assaults on Nokuthula Simelane, Coetzee and Pretorius or only Coetzee would be there or only Pretorius would be there in terms of the leading, can you just clarify that one and that's throughout the five weeks?
MR LAMEY: Talking about ...(inaudible)
ADV GCABASHE: No, no, that might be what you're talking about, that not what I'm talking about, in the five week period, just try and recall? I just want to know as the two senior officers, were they there each time or one might be there, one might not? Just give me an idea.
MR VEYI: It didn't happen in my presence that there would be only one of them present. Coetzee and Pretorius, I can say that they were like friends, they were always together.
MR LAMEY: Now if I can just come back before we go onto the Northern - in your statement, your first statement that you made, you had described in the previous paragraph, paragraph 4 on page 3 about the members who went with and that is now to the Carlton Centre as far as you know, is that correct?
MR LAMEY: Then immediately the following paragraph states
"This lady was taken to a farm at Northern"
and you say further on, the next sentence, that:
"The day after her arrest I was also posted to go to the farm to guard her."
MR LAMEY: In other words, the statement which you made to the Attorney General and which didn't make mention of the Norwood detention?
MR LAMEY: And is it correct that when this supplemented amnesty application of yours was prepared and during the course of preparation this aspect was discussed with you, is it correct, the question of Norwood?
MR VEYI: Yes it was discussed with me and then I thought about this when I was going to Pretoria for consultation.
MR LAMEY: But it was also discussed with you during consultation, is that correct? You were asked about whether, questions in these terms, whether you know if she was kept at Norwood, is that correct?
MR LAMEY: And during the course of that you were also - it was also mentioned to you that what Mr Selamolela states in this regard is that correct and you'll be asked to comment on that?
MR LAMEY: And when that was discussed, did you come to some realisation or what was the position?
MR VEYI: When this was discussed I remembered that after she was arrested in Carlton Centre there was a place that she was taken to before being taken to Northern, she was taken to Norwood.
MR LAMEY: And when you remembered then is that when your application was supplemented as in the way it presents on page 4?
MR LAMEY: Now I want to move over now to the situation at Northern. Here you also worked in shifts at the farm, is that correct?
MR LAMEY: Let us talk about in this instance now of the shifts. Let us talk about the Black members. Each time that you were there, were you there with the same people or were you on different occasions with different Black members there?
MR VEYI: The people that I remember was Selamolela and sometimes I would not be with him, I would be with Sefuti.
MR LAMEY: And other black members?
MR VEYI: They were also changing shifts.
MR LAMEY: Now what I want to know is, at the time when you were at Northern on your stay there, I'm now talking about only the Black members, would you only be there with, on occasion with Selamolela or with Sefuti or were there also other Black members, on the different shifts. Was there only two people for instance or were there more than two on each occasion that you were there?
MR VEYI: I think it was more than two because sometimes we would be together and then we would have braais and then we would sleep there, all of us.
MR LAMEY: So the numbers differed on each and every occasion that you were there and also the particular persons, the individuals differed, is that correct?
MR LAMEY: You say sometimes Selamolela would be there but other times you would not be there on your shift?
MR VEYI: Yes I said that sometimes he would be there, sometimes the whole unit would be there in Northern.
MR LAMEY: What I want to know is, were there also times that you were there perhaps with Sefuti on a particular shift that Selamolela would not be there, that he would be back at Protea, perhaps to come for the next shift?
MR VEYI: Yes, there were such times.
MR LAMEY: On the occasions that you drove or that you went to Northern, did you use your own vehicle on each occasion to relieve the others?
MR VEYI: Each and every shift, when other cars would come back there would be cars that were left there. When we would arrive there with our own car the people who were there would take their own car and come back with it.
MR LAMEY: Of the names you have mentioned, Sefuti and Selamolela, did you drive sometimes with Selamolela to the farm and other times with Sefuti in a car?
MR LAMEY: Now I want to talk now about the interrogation sessions at Northern and during - and specifically also the assaults during those interrogation sessions. Can you recall during those sessions, also like I've asked you in Norwood about the Black members participations in the assaults, what I want to ask you specifically, can you remember what everyone did or what is the position?
MR VEYI: I would like to explain this. If a person is here our end, I was the one who was assaulting her and then some -one other person might hold the hand or the leg and then put that person down. So according to my own perception, that person is also taking part in assaulting.
MR LAMEY: Yes, so you would say the way that the different Black members was involved in the assault at Northern differed. One for instance would perhaps hold her during the sessions, others would perhaps dish out a slap or a kick in the process?
MR LAMEY: But that is why you say also everybody participated in the assaults including Selamolela when he was there?
MR LAMEY: And by doing that you say everybody played some role in the assault is that correct?
MR LAMEY: So if Mr Selamolela says during the times when he was at Northern he was used as an interpreter and he would hold her, that was his role during the assault. Are you in disagreement with that or what is your comment?
MR VEYI: I would agree with him.
MR LAMEY: The language of interrogation of Simelane, was she at all times interrogated in one language or did it differ?
MR VEYI: She was interrogated in Afrikaans.
MR LAMEY: Other languages? I'm talking about over the whole period, Norwood, Northern, I'm talking in general?
MR VEYI: It was only Afrikaans and then we would interpret to her in Zulu.
MR LAMEY: So if you talk about we, who are you talking about that would interpret in Zulu?
MR VEYI: It would be myself who interpreted, sometimes it would be Peter, sometimes it would be Sergeant Mathiba.
MR LAMEY: Let's just stop, Peter?
MR LAMEY: Peter Lengene. And Selamolela?
MR VEYI: He was also responsible for that, he was also interpreting.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I think I have gone through my re-examination, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Veyi, when you were having these braais on the farm, was there liquor there?
MR VEYI: I can't remember but I think there was no one drinking liquor amongst us but I can't remember well.
CHAIRPERSON: And other times, that's when you were not having braais, was there liquor present on the farm?
MR VEYI: If I still remember well I think they are not all of them they are not drinking liquor, there were no members who were drinking liquor. Even if they were drinking liquor they were not drinking it in Northum.
CHAIRPERSON: So there was no drinking on the farm so far as you remember?
MR VEYI: We would only drink cold drinks, not alcohol.
CHAIRPERSON: Not beers, just cold drinks?
CHAIRPERSON: In the summertime, I heard it was summertime. I don't know that area so well but I think it was suggested by one of the witnesses that it's quite hot at that time of the year, September. So there was no beers there?
MR VEYI: As I've already said, most of the members are not people who were drinking alcohol, we were only drinking cold drinks.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay and just explain another thing to me which I'm not sure about. All of you seem to have been referring to this that Ms Simelane was soiling herself during this interrogation, now was that limited to a particular period or did it happen throughout her stay on the farm or what is the position with that?
MR VEYI: It was not all the time, it was happening sometimes.
CHAIRPERSON: But was it just at the beginning when you got to the farm or did this happen from time to time throughout the period or what?
MR VEYI: I can't remember it clearly but I think when I was present I think it happened twice.
CHAIRPERSON: Did the interrogation stop at one stage whilst she was on the farm or did it continue up to the time when you were last on the farm?
MR VEYI: It would continue and then it would stop, there was no specific time.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes but just talking about yourself, up to the last time that you were on the farm, I'm talking about that period now, during your stay did the interrogation stop completely at some point?
MR VEYI: I left the farm and it was still continuing when I left.
CHAIRPERSON: And was it under the same circumstances that you had explained to us that it would go with assaults, the interrogation?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you Mr Veyi
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I omitted in re-examination to ask one aspect that is actually also of important. I just want to cover one aspect. I apologise.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no it's fine Mr Lamey, go ahead.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Veyi you testified about this trip to Potchefstroom where you saw Coetzee in the car and you saw Nokuthula Simelane also in boot of the car. The person - can you remember clearly who the person was that was with you?
MR VEYI: If I still remember well I was with Selamolela.
MR LAMEY: Are you dead certain about that? Completely certain?
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, really. Really Mr Chairman, this is not the kind of question you ask in re-examination or of your own witness?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think he's already also said if he can remember.
MR LAMEY: What I just want to clarify is exactly the phrase if I do remember. There's something that senses a sort of a qualification in - I just want to get exact clarity on that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes well he doesn't seem to be giving us a definite answer on that one, committing himself and saying it was definitely Selamolela. He's qualifying in the sense of "if my memory serves me correctly", you know? That's what I understand him to say.
MR LAMEY: Yes that is my impression also but you know that's why I just wanted to follow up also with another question but ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think Mr Visser is - we don't have a difficulty in understanding what he is trying to tell us.
MR LAMEY: Perhaps I might follow the question was then unnecessary. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, are you through now?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I have a word perhaps, with your leave? Chairman, a lot of issues have now arisen during cross-examination of my learned friend Mr van den Berg and the Panel as well and particularly in re-examination which have not been put to my witnesses and which they have not had an
opportunity of dealing with. It would appear to us Chairperson that we would have to ask to be allowed to cross-examine Mr Veyi again on the new issues that have arisen and we might depending on how that goes, we might have to require your leave later when we reconvene with this matter again to recall those witnesses on issues which they hadn't had an opportunity of giving you their evidence. At this stage there are a few issues, new issues which I can cover and hopefully it may be sufficient but we'll only know that when we've got the record but hopefully I might be able to deal and dispose with them now if it then appears from the record that there are other matters which I can deal with now, then I will just have to bring that up at a later stage, with your leave Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON: Of course if there is a material issue that had arisen, that impacts on your client's application, something material, I'm not talking about a peripheral matter that deals with credibility or anything along those lines. Of course if there is something material then we must consider, you know, allowing you an opportunity. But certainly insofar as putting further questions to him at this stage I'm going to allow you to do that so that we can see if we can't dispose of the issues then through that means.
MR VISSER: Yes I'm hoping that I'll be able to do that. Chairperson, just one matter with respect to you, it appears that credibility has become an issue in this hearing and therefore matters on credibility will be material, with respect.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, but certainly if I understand the position correctly, Mr Visser can only re-examine on questions arising from questions from the Committee and issues that were fresh arising from re-examination, I'm not so sure whether there has been any fresh issues arising from re-examination.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to allow him to raise them and you object if it's necessary to do so and we'll see. Mr Visser has given us the assurance that those are new matters, that's why I'm allowing him to deal with them. I think it's fair, you know we're not sitting strictly as a court of law here, you know, we're an administrative tribunal so you know we try to be fair to all the parties, within limits, you know because we're not constituted to exist forever but we're trying to do justice. Mr Visser?
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Veyi, was Exhibit CC3 the newspaper article in the Sowetan which carried the information which you gave the reporter, did I understand you correctly?
MR LAMEY: Let me just have a moment?
MR VISSER: Does that mean that what is stated in this newspaper article contains what you told the reporter?
MR VEYI: Yes that is correct except for two or three lines, those that Mr Lamey quoted from that I didn't tell the reporter that we Black members assaulted her.
MR VISSER: Yes, well alright. I want to refer you to Exhibit CC3, the right hand column.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, on this very first question, unfortunately I must come in and ask my learned friend what has been testified to in re-examination new about this witness. The witness was ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: You handed it in.
MR LAMEY: No, I didn't hand it in.
CHAIRPERSON: Put your point, I'm listening to your argument?
MR LAMEY: No Mr Chairman, I didn't hand this exhibit in. I asked Mr Veyi exactly in re-examination on the very same paragraph that Mr Visser cross-examined him in re-examination. Now my learned friend had this article as part of his bundle, part of Exhibit T, he didn't take the opportunity in cross-examining Mr Veyi on the rest or remainder of the contents of that article, he now purports to do so. It's also ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: If I might assist Mr Chairperson, it's Exhibit T page 24.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Visser, what is the ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairperson, if my learned friend had just allowed me to go on he would have understood what the relevance is. First of all there was no mention made of food that was provided or not provided for Ms Simelane at all during the whole of the hearing until we came after my cross-examination. That's the first point.
The second point is, during evidence in re-examination you heard for the first time that apparently this dam's water was infested with fungus, that it was a drinking trough of sorts, Chairperson, and it is in that regard that I want to refer to this newspaper article. It's new evidence which we hadn't had an opportunity of dealing with. If my learned friend can just give me an opportunity, I will not do what he has done, Chairperson, I give you an undertaking. I know the rules of evidence.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman I must just come on the record here at this stage that there has also been fresh evidence in the applicants' evidence in re-examination and I would also like to reserve the same rights in future.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no of course.
MR LAMEY: I don't know what my learned friend refers to, I have not done what my learned friend has done, I don't know what he's referring to and I think it's an unnecessary comment really.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Visser, I think it's a fair comment but you want to deal with the questions of the food and the condition of the water in the dam? Now ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: I've no difficulty with that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes of course. A part of the food issue arose as of new information, take-aways and things like that, rat-packs apparently arose in your client's evidence. The question of the damn water of course that is a new matter you might want to put something to the witness in that regard?
MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
I just want to refer to the last column, to the sixth line and I want to read it to you Mr Veyi. You are quoted in the Sowetan as having said the following:
"We slept in sleeping bags on the floor. We used to wash at the tap outside."
MR LAMEY: Sorry, can I just get to the paragraph? I'm sorry, the witness is just struggling to find the ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: It's the only quotation in the last column.
ADV GCABASHE: The second column.
MR VISSER: The second column, oh.
MR VEYI: Can you please repeat your question?
MR VISSER: You refer you to a tap where you washed. You told this Committee that you never washed on the farm, you told the Committee that there wasn't water to wash except in the dam?
MR VEYI: Yes, there was no water except in the dam.
MR VISSER: So what is the tap that you're referring to?
MR VEYI: I've already said that this what be might the reporter wrote herself, for example ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: No Mr Veyi, I asked you before you started with -this article contains what you told the reporter you said yes except for the lines which Mr Lamey read. So this is what you said and you directly quoted, it's in quotation marks. These are your words. Are you saying you didn't tell her about a tap?
MR VEYI: Mr Lamey didn't ask anything about the tap. As I'm saying I would quote again, there is an article that Mr Visser showed me yesterday where he said that I resented White people, White members because of their higher ranks. I didn't say what is written here in this article, I don't know anything about it.
MR VISSER: Yes, it's an article that was handed in by Mr van den Berg and you confirmed that this was the article which carried the information you gave to the reporter of the Sowetan, Mr Veyi?
MR VEYI: When Mr Visser asked me about the article, I took this photo and when I said that I don't know about what is written here, I only know about the photo, maybe this is the story of the reporter that was making a follow up. I only know about this story in CC3.
MR VISSER: Is it correct that you took a reporter out to the farm at Northern?
MR VISSER: Was this Ms Chetty that you took to the farm?
MR VISSER: And did you show her around?
MR VEYI: She wanted to see the house that we were staying and then I showed her the house and then she wanted to see the main house and then I showed her the main house. She then went to the owners of the house and asked them questions. After that we came back.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Veyi. Now are you saying that there wasn't a tap and that this something that Ms Chetty herself wrote without you telling her. Is that what you're saying?
MR VEYI: I can't remember a tap there.
MR VISSER: But you were there for five weeks? Was there or wasn't there a tap?
MR VISSER: Did you wash at a tap on the farm or not?
MR VEYI: We didn't wash there.
MR VISSER: Alright. You spoke about food, you were asked about food and you said that you had rat-packs and sometimes you would go to Northern to buy fish and chips. Do you remember that?
MR VISSER: Did you also have other food on the farm?
MR VEYI: We were provided with food. It was like we were camping there, the police who were camping they were using rat-packs. We didn't like them and then we would go to the shops and buy food for ourselves.
MR VISSER: Apart from that were you also provided with other food?
MR VEYI: We were buying food for ourselves if we needed it.
MR VISSER: Mr Veyi, what's the problem with answering the question? Were you also provided with other food, not the stuff that you bought or the rat-packs, other food? Let's cut it short, weren't braais held for you there on the farm?
MR VEYI: Yes we had a braai once.
MR VISSER: Once? I see. You didn't have braais on the farm, just one braai, you're quite sure of that?
MR VEYI: When I was there, there was only one braai.
MR VISSER: Alright, you see in that same Exhibit CC3 just the next sentence, you are quoted again and it says
"'There is the place where we used to have braais' he said"
"pointing to a fire scorched section on one side."
"Where we used to have braais" Is that also wrong?
MR VEYI: This is also written wrongly.
MR VISSER: Yes. I put it to you that Coetzee and Pretorius did not sleep there every night, Mr Veyi. They had a job to do, the farm was approximately 300 kilometres from Johannesburg as you yourself said, that's a 600 kilometre round trip, there could be no way for them to go out there in the morning and come back, stay there at night, come back to Johannesburg, go back again every single day to sleep on the farm. I put it to you that that is not true.
MR VEYI: I was asked where we slept on the farm and then I
said that we slept in sleeping bags and stretchers. Because the
house was small. Some of us would sleep inside, some of us
would sleep outside because it was cold, they would sleep there.
MR VISSER: Yes, alright, if you prefer to answer the question that way, that's alright. You said that Mr Ross, the only person that you could remember was Mr Williams that wasn't present at the interrogations of Simelane at Norwood, is that what you said?
MR VEYI: I said in Norwood I can't remember well but Lieutenant Williams I can't remember him being there in Norwood.
MR VEYI: Ross was always with us all the time. It is possible that he was there, it is also possible that he was not there, I would not dispute that because most of the time Sergeant Ross was doing administrative work.
MR VISSER: Yes. Chairperson, those are the only matters which I could pick up now. As I say we will inform you about the situation once we've had a look at the record, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Visser. Mr Lamey have you got anything else arising from the further cross-examination?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Veyi, you are excused. Thank you.
MR VEYI: Thank you. Before stepping down, I would like to say to this Committee I apologise for taking part, for my taking part in the kidnapping of Nokuthula Simelane. Everything that happened, it didn't happen because I wanted it to happen, but it happened because of the instructions that I got from the people that I was working under.
To all the people that were assaulted or that were treated bad when I was working at the security branch and all the members of ANC, their families, I would like to apologise to them. I would like to tell them that I was forced by the situation or the circumstances of the time. It is why after the change in this country and then I heard that Simelane's family, they were still looking for their child, that is why I decided to come forward. I would like to say that I apologise. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We'll take a short adjournment. We have to look at the matter of Mbali as well but we'll adjourn for a short while.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now the Simelane matter will have to stand down to grant us an opportunity to deal with another incident that we are, by the looks of things, able to dispose of very quickly. Mr van den Berg was there something that you wanted to bring to our attention?
MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes Mr Chairperson. I'd indicated in my cross-examination of Mr Coetzee that I had a discussion with Mr Molapo who is an investigator at the TRC. I had a brief discussion with him again yesterday during that adjournment which you granted me and he was supposed to meet with me this morning just to give me further and better details. The gist of it is that prior to Mr Lengene’s death, he was co-operating with Mr Molapo. He, Mr Lengene, had pointed out a site in the Rustenburg area where certain exhumations had been carried out and a grave containing 15 corpses had been exhumed. Initially Mr Molapo indicated to me that of the corpses, thirteen were male and two were female. It subsequently has transpired that of those 15, all 15 are male but that there are additional corpses buried in graves on that site. The information which Mr Lengene apparently gave to Mr Molapo was to the effect that Nokuthula Simelane was buried in one of those graves. The request from the family is that the remainder of those graves be exhumed.
I have also spoken with Captain Leask of the Attorney General's office and he has indicated that if female corpses were to be unearthed, his office would be prepared to do the necessary DNA tests if there was sufficient material left. I confirmed that with him again yesterday afternoon and in the circumstances I would request the TRC's assistance in pursuing those exhumations. I understand that Mr Molapo is ready and willing to do so but that he requires a direction to do so as it pleases this Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, to the extent that it is necessary for the internal requirements of the Amnesty Committee and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we would recommend that the Amnesty Committee take the necessary steps to assist the family in dealing with the question of exhumation as requested by Mr van den Berg.
Now we're going to let this matter stand down as requested by Mr van den Berg. We're going to let this matter stand down for the moment and proceed with the incident concerning Mr Mbali. So we can stand down but you know we unfortunately have to ask you to be available, Mr Lamey and Mr van den Berg, before we can finally dispose of the matter. We're not quite sure how we're going to deal with the remainder of the evidence in this particular matter, so for the moment we're going to let it stand down until we are in a better position to deal with that.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, might I enquire as to whether I might be excused, my offices are about twenty minutes from here and I will ensure that my cellphone is on and that I would return immediately that I be summonsed?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes that is in order, I trust that there's also a convenient arrangement that we can make with you, Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: I'm from Pretoria but we do have an office here in Johannesburg, I'll also keep myself on but I may just stay just around here in the vicinity. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: But if you need to you could make arrangements perhaps with Ms Thabethe. So we'll excuse you on that basis.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think there were two applicants in the Mbali matter, is Messrs Schoon and Genis if I'm not mistaken.
MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, the first witness I will call General Genis. He will give his evidence in Afrikaans.
MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chairman, before we proceed, we can't get hold of Mr Mbali. Can you please give me time to look for him. He was around here.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright, will you please endeavour to get him here as quickly as you can? Well we'll stand down.
CHAIRPERSON: In the Mbali matter, it appears as if it would be more advisable to deal with the Simelane matter more definitely and clearly than we've done earlier. It doesn't look as if taking into account the time that is at our disposal today that we are going to be able to meaningfully deal with what remains to be heard, evidence to be heard in that particular matter so we are in any event going to have to postpone that matter. We are of the view that it might be in the best interests of everybody if we rather just do it immediately instead of letting the parties hang around.
We don't have a date, a date hasn't been arranged, it's not possible to do it right here and now, that will have to be done in conjunction with everybody including the panel who once we depart from here we will read into all sorts of different other matters and we will be distributed all over the country so it is going to be necessary to consider all of the programmes and see when we can reconvene this panel. We have all sorts of other constraints on us, our members are not available indefinitely so it's going to have to take some organisation. So the best that we can do in regard to the Simelane matter is to postpone it sine die and to leave our office and the parties to arrange a date that will be convenient and suitable to everybody's needs. So that matter will be postponed and then we will then finally excuse Mr Lamey and Mr van den Berg.