MR MGIDLANA: May I then call Templeton Zamhikhele Pato?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pato, what language would you prefer to use?
INTERPRETER: The witness is going to testify in Xhosa.
TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pato, you may be seated.
CHAIRPERSON: How are you employed at the moment?
MR PATO: Yes, I am employed. I am working at the Legal Advice Centre at Port St Johns, in the office of the Human Rights.
CHAIRPERSON: Those spectacles or sunglasses that you have, are they prescriptive?
CHAIRPERSON: Would you please remove them? Yes, Mr Mgidlana?
EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases you, Judge. Would you give us your full names for the purposes of the record, Mr Pato?
MR PATO: My name is Templeton Zamikhele Pato.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana, we are still busy with the same incident?
MR MGIDLANA: With the same incident, Judge, yes. Where do you reside?
MR PATO: I reside in Port St Johns, at Ntibane in the township.
MR MGIDLANA: At the time when the incident under discussion took place, that is the shoot-out at the Voter Education Workshop at one of the schools at Port St Johns, were you a member of any organisation or a State organ?
MR PATO: Yes, I was a member as I am still a member, even today.
MR MGIDLANA: Give us the organisation, when did you join it?
MR PATO: I am a member of the African National Congress, I joined the ANC in 1993, I beg your pardon in 1983. I don't know whether you want to get more details as to the Branch. I joined at Mbekweni in Cape Town.
MR MGIDLANA: When this incident took place, you were still a member of the ANC?
MR PATO: Yes, that is correct sir.
MR MGIDLANA: Where were you stationed, or where were you residing, were you still residing in Port St Johns?
MR PATO: I was residing in Port St Johns at this place called Ntibane township.
MR MGIDLANA: On this day of the shoot-out at the school, where were you?
MR PATO: On this particular day, I was at school, Port St Johns Senior Secondary School. We went there for a Voter Education.
MR MGIDLANA: Could you tell us what happened when you were there?
MR PATO: As I was there, we had a Workshop that had started eight o'clock in the morning. Damdile came, one of the people who were there, his name was Damdile, he came to the class and enquired about the person who was at the school gate and he was also swollen just underneath his nose, he was hit with the firearm by someone who asked him about Mandela's firearms. He said this person was a soldier from the Transkei. This person was ill-treating people who were wearing a camouflage uniform, camouflage military uniform of the Transkei soldiers. I am not sure if your question is answered.
MR MGIDLANA: May I just spell the name of the person that is named. It is D-a-m-d-i-l-e. And then what happened, could you just give us a full picture of what happened?
MR PATO: It was myself, Sibusiso - myself and Sibusiso, we were sent to go and check out what was happening at the gate, and we went to the gate. There was a man who was there wearing this camouflage uniform for the Transkei Defence Force. When we enquired as to what was happening, because we were thinking that perhaps this is a soldier from Transkei or a person who was drunk. He did not respond properly and it looked like he was also prepared to hit us with this firearm and we heard a gunshot from the other direction, the junior, Port St Johns Junior School and on the other side of the road was Mr Mposelwa's house and we heard a firing coming from that direction of Mposelwa's house.
MR MGIDLANA: Yes, and what happened?
MR PATO: After that, we ran away. As the people who were unarmed, we were not expecting that to happen. We ran to the police station. We found Mr Guleni at the police station and the previous Chairperson of the ANC who were reporting about a matter that had happened and Mr Guleni was wearing some dirty clothes, as if it is someone was put into some ditch or mud. They told us that they would attend to us later, and to be honest, even the police from Port St Johns were afraid of these APLA guys. When we reported this matter, they told us that they would come back later to us, they first had to attend to this Guleni matter that had taken place at Bantu. We went back to the school, because we were worried about the elderly people who had attended the Voter Education. After arriving at the school and on the other side of the fence, the firing was still going on.
MR PATO: We realised that this shooting was intensifying and they were now hitting straight at the verandah where the Workshop was, the verandah of the class where the Workshop was. I don't even know at what time did they get in, that is Mr Guleni and the others. As we were still taking cover there, and requesting the people not to get out, because we were going to be hit and we advised that the people should remain inside. We saw a car, a red car, coming in, a Jetta. Those were the MK soldiers, three of them. When they came, we were not sure as to who were they. We thought that the people who were attacking, had some reinforcement, but we later realised that those were the people who were coming to protect the people who were there attending the Voter Education, at school. I am not sure if I am going fast, is it okay?
MR MGIDLANA: Proceed, it is okay.
MR PATO: I stood next to them, because I didn't know what to do because I was unarmed. I didn't know which one of them, this school, there was a high school, we were at the high school and from there it was a bushveld, and behind there, there was Mr Mposelwa's house. Those people were just shooting randomly and the people were shooting from the direction of Mr Mposelwa's house, shooting, directing at us and I saw a firearm, an Uzzi, falling from one of the APLA soldiers. He was also running away, this APLA soldier and his firearm fell, that is when I got hold of a firearm to protect the people, the people who were there at school. That is when I got that firearm and this other person ran away towards the bushes.
MR MGIDLANA: And you picked up this firearm, is that correct?
MR PATO: Yes, I kept this firearm.
MR MGIDLANA: Did you use it to fire at the people who were running away or who were firing at you?
MR PATO: Yes, I used this firearm. Though I was not directing or directing at a specific target, I was just shooting randomly because it was not easy for us to see those people, because they were hiding in the bush and they could see us because we were not hiding.
MR MGIDLANA: Were you a member of either MK or the Self Defence Unit of the ANC?
MR PATO: Unfortunately I was not an MK member, I was not a member of the SDU at the time.
MR MGIDLANA: And you heard the narration by Mr Matshaya about what happened after they had arrived, do you confirm what happened after they had arrived?
MR PATO: Yes, I do confirm that, because it is as he is narrating the story. But I am not sure if I am allowed to add anything. I also want to mention that we did not know one another at the time and it was very difficult for me to trust them up until such time, they came to our side and started shooting towards the bushes, and I later discovered that they were coming from somewhere else, though I didn't know who told them about the incident, but that is when I realised that those people were on our side.
MR MGIDLANA: Were you charged for any offence regarding that particular incident, that is the shoot-out incident?
MR PATO: No, I was never charged or arrested concerning this incident.
MR MGIDLANA: Is it correct that you are one of the accused in the APLA 5 case?
MR PATO: Yes, that is correct sir.
MR MGIDLANA: Did you participate in the events leading to the killing and disposal of the bodies of those members of APLA? Those five members of APLA did you participate in the activities leading to their killing, their actual killing as well as the disposal of their bodies?
MR PATO: No, I was never part of that, the only incident that I was involved in was during the shooting on that particular day, that was the only, the first and the last incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Which shooting, at the school?
MR PATO: Yes, at school during the Voter Education.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only ...
MR MGIDLANA: Is the only, yes, are you therefore saying that you are not applying for amnesty in respect of the killing of the APLA 5 because you were not there?
MR PATO: Yes, I do not have any application concerning that matter, the APLA 5, because I was not involved.
MR MGIDLANA: Judge, I may mention that his application appears from page 14 up to page 20 of the Bundle, and that he does mention this particular incident, regarding the APLA 5 on page 16, on page 17, Judge, I am sorry, under paragraph (b) where it says "the second case of which I am involved as accused 4 is not known to me", so I wanted to clear that one. That is all, Judge.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA
MR MALUSI: I have no questions Judge, for this witness, since he says he is not involved in the incident I am dealing with.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALUSI
MR MGXAJI: No questions, Judge.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MGXAJI
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you Chair. Mr Pato, what act is it that you committed on that day for which you want this Committee to grant you amnesty?
MR PATO: Thank you sir. First of all, during the shoot-out, as a person who managed to get hold of a firearm, I do not know whether anyone was injured in that incident, because there were bushes there next to the junior school of Port St Johns. My application is about the fact that that was not my aim to shoot a person, but it happened, and it is also possible that I injured someone during that incident, that is why I am here for amnesty, but I cannot say for sure, and state explicitly.
MR MAPOMA: Did you shoot at all?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
MR MGIDLANA: There is no re-examination, Judge.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.