MR JANSEN: He'll sit on my left-hand side here.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Can we request that the headphones or microphones be rearranged accordingly.
MR JANSEN: His evidence will also be in Tswana, Madam Chair.
ADV MOTATA: Mr Matjeni, give us your full names again.
KOKELA JEREMIAH MATJENI: (sworn states)
ADV MOTATA: Sworn in, Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Motata. Mr Jansen?
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Matjeni, you previously testified before this Committee in other incidents, in respect of your personal background and your background in these South African Police.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: And you want the Committee to consider that evidence when they consider your application in respect of this incident.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: You also previously testified about the initial application which you handed in before the cut-off date, and that was handed up to the Committee at a previous hearing.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Now your application in respect of the incident relating to Comrade X, is found on pages 80 to 85, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: And you confirm the correctness thereof.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Now your rank in 1987 was that of a Constable, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: And you were in C-Section of the Northern Transvaal Security Branch.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: From who did you get your orders in respect of this incident?
MR MATJENI: In regard to this incident I received my orders from Capt Prinsloo or Capt Crafford, both of them because they were in charge.
MR JANSEN: Now just two of the, or some matters that became contentious between some of the other applicants. You state in your application that Mr Lubane was not assaulted in your presence, do you confirm that still?
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: There was also evidence by Mr Bester that according to his memory, you were also present when certain photographs or maps were shown or dealt with, with Mr Lubane. Can you remember something like that?
MR MATJENI: No, Chairperson, I don't remember anything of that sort.
MR JANSEN: Now at the time of this incident you were fully aware of the fact that Mr Lubane was not legally detained.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson, I knew.
MR JANSEN: And when you returned from going to buy beer at the shop, as you say in your application at page 82, you then saw for instance, human remains being picked up, being some hair and part of the scalp.
MR MATJENI: I did not see that, I heard somebody say later that he picked up a piece of hair on that place, but I did not see that myself.
MR JANSEN: When you say you heard it, you heard it at the time when you were still there on the farm?
MR MATJENI: Yes, it was later after that incident, but we were still at the farm when I heard about that.
MR JANSEN: And these things led you to assume that Mr Lubane had been killed.
MR MATJENI: That is correct, Chairperson, I did not know his name, I only knew him as Comrade.
MR JANSEN: And as you have previously testified, you regarded it as part of your job to remain silent about what had happened to this person.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Now can you remember where this farm was?
MR MATJENI: It is on that side of Rust-de-winter, but I don't know directly where it can be.
MR JANSEN: What do you remember of the approximate location of this farm?
MR MATJENI: When you arrive at Rust-de-winter Police Station, you'd turn left, then you'd take a road towards KwaNdebele.
MR JANSEN: Is that a road - when you say turn left, is that a road that goes North?
MR MATJENI: From Rust-de-winter that road goes towards Rust-de-winter, towards KwaNdebele.
MR JANSEN: Let's just try and get the directions again. It's correct as you describe in your application, that first you travel North with the N1, the big highway?
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: And then you turn right at ...(intervention)
MR MATJENI: You turn right at Pienaarsrivier.
MR JANSEN: Yes. The Pienaarsrivier turn-off. The Pienaarsrivier would be on your left-hand side, if you're on the highway.
MR MATJENI: On the highway, Pienaarsrivier, that area is Pienaarsrivier, then from there you turn left, then you turn right again.
MR JANSEN: Ja, but I'm just trying to find out how you drove. You turned right, when leaving the highway you turned right towards Rust-de-winter.
MR MATJENI: That is correct, Chairperson, you turn right towards Rust-de-winter.
MR JANSEN: And that road eventually takes you to the Rust-de-winter Police Station.
MR MATJENI: It doesn't go straight towards the police station, you'd find a T-junction towards Rust-de-winter, when you turn right you go to the police station and then when you turn left you go to join the road towards KwaNdebele.
MR JANSEN: And how long along that road going to KwaNdebele - or can you remember how far along that road one goes?
MR MATJENI: I don't know, Chairperson, it's quite a distance. If I remember well, it's quite a distance.
MR JANSEN: And was this farm next to the road?
MR MATJENI: It is near the road on your left-hand side of the road.
MR JANSEN: And you will be prepared if requested so by the TRC or the victims, to attempt to find this place again, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: If it was like other farms which I was able to identify, but this one, it would be difficult for me. I'm not able to commit myself to do that.
MR JANSEN: No, but you would be prepared to assist. Obviously you may not find the place, but you will be prepared to assist, am I correct if I understand your instructions in that way?
MR MATJENI: I would try to help, but I don't think I would be able to find the farm.
MR JANSEN: Now as far as this incident is concerned, is it correct that you received no special remuneration or anything, apart from your ordinary salary for this?
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson, I didn't have any special benefit.
MR JANSEN: And Comrade X, as he was known to you at that stage, the only knowledge that you had of him was that he was a political activist of some sort.
MR MATJENI: I heard so, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen. Mr Swart, do you wish to put any questions to Mr Matjeni?
MR SWART: No questions, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Prinsloo?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Matjeni, in your application on page 81, the second paragraph, you say there
"We were on the farm for approximately one to two weeks."
Are you not perhaps mistaken with the time period, because you have heard all the other witnesses speak of a week or less?
MR MATJENI: I'm confusing these incidents, I don't know exactly how long we stayed at that farm.
ADV PRINSLOO: You had been with the Security Branch for quite some time and you must have been involved in numerous interrogations.
MR MATJENI: That is correct, Chairperson.
ADV PRINSLOO: And with regard to this incident you are relying on your memory, not on any notes that you may have compiled.
MR MATJENI: I only state what I'm able to remember about this incident.
ADV PRINSLOO: And this incident took place approximately 12 years ago.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
ADV PRINSLOO: And you were also asked about a photo album, can you recall specifically that there was no photo album, or do you simply think so, or were there cases in the past during which a photo album was used, or is it impossible for you to say?
MR MATJENI: I'm not able to state anything in regard to the photo album because it was used in various operations, it was shown to many people. But I don't remember in this particular instance whether the album was used.
ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Ms van der Walt?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Matjeni, in paragraph 2 on page 81, it would appear from your statement that you and Smuts - that would be Mr Mathebula, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: ... and Kenny More, Mbatha, Chris Putter, Kat Bester, Prinsloo, Dos Santos and other persons who you cannot recall, participated in the interrogation, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: I did not take part in any interrogation. If I remember well, the only person responsible for the interrogation was Capt Prinsloo and then again Capt Crafford.
MS VAN DER WALT: If you were alone with Mr Lubane, did you never speak to him?
MR MATJENI: It was myself, Mathebula and Bester who would always be with him all the time. If someone was outside, always I would cook, I would look for wood and I would leave him with them.
MS VAN DER WALT: You see the reason why I'm asking is because you stated in your statement that you had participated in the interrogation.
MR MATJENI: That would be a mistake because we were not allowed to take part in the interrogation of any person.
MS VAN DER WALT: But you were present. If I study the first section of paragraph ...(intervention)
MR MATJENI: Yes, I was present.
MS VAN DER WALT: Then I would like to refer you to page 82, paragraph 4, where it is clearly stated and you also testified to this
"I heard that someone had picked up a small piece of scalp with hairs on."
You were not there by the hole, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: When we returned - it was a distance from the house where we were staying, then I left them at the farmhouse, then I dropped them there and then returned to the farmhouse.
MS VAN DER WALT: I don't really understand, I don't know if it was correctly interpreted. You say that you returned and you left who at the farmhouse?
MR MATJENI: We black members went to the bottle store in Pienaarsrivier, then when we returned I dropped them on the road and when I say "on the road", I mean where white members were, then I took the car to the farmhouse, but within the same farm.
MS VAN DER WALT: Then I understand you. You were not at the hole, you dropped the others off next to the road and you went back to the farmhouse, is that correct? I don't wish to misunderstand you.
MR MATJENI: Yes, it's within the same yard. I don't want you to confuse this because you say I'd left them in the street. I left them within the farm where the white members were, then I took the car within the yard to the farmhouse, then I returned on foot to where they were.
CHAIRPERSON: I think what is being sought from you is, at what stage did you hear about a piece of flesh having been discovered.
MR MATJENI: That is when I returned and joined them. They were busy looking for something there. Then thereafter, I don't remember well, but he did not tell me on the scene, he told me after that he found a piece of scalp together with the hair.
MS VAN DER WALT: So you didn't see that a piece of scalp was actually picked up, you heard about this later. This that you heard later, was this when you were once again back at the farmhouse? Would you give me an opportunity to finish my sentence please.
CHAIRPERSON: Please listen carefully before you respond to the question, give her time to finish her question, then thereafter you can have the opportunity to answer the question.
MS VAN DER WALT: May we just begin again, Mr Matjeni. Your evidence was that you heard that a piece of scalp had been picked up. You did not see it, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: That is correct, Chairperson, I did not see that, I heard about it.
MS VAN DER WALT: Very well. Then you went ahead and stated that you heard this upon a later occasion, that a piece of scalp had been picked up. Is that correct?
MR MATJENI: Please repeat your question, I don't understand.
MS VAN DER WALT: You testified, Mr Matjeni - and this is not me that is saying this, this was your evidence, you testified that it was only upon a later occasion that you heard that a piece of scalp had been picked up.
MR MATJENI: I repeat again that one of them, I don't remember who, as to whether it was Kenny or Smuts, one of them informed me that he picked up a piece of scalp.
MS VAN DER WALT: And when were you informed about this?
MR MATJENI: I repeat again, I don't remember what time, as to whether it was on the scene or in the farmhouse.
MS VAN DER WALT: Because if I have understood your evidence correctly, you stated that you were there at the hole, but that it was only upon a later occasion that you came to hear about this remnant of scalp and now you say that you cannot recall whether it was at the hole or in the house. Therefore, you are uncertain, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: Firstly, I would say - when you say I was next to the hole, I don't know what you're talking about, I was not there. I don't know what you're talking about when you say at the hole or in the farmhouse.
MS VAN DER WALT: Very well. Were you not at the hole at all? When you returned and dropped off the persons there where the white members were and returned to the farmhouse, did you then remain at the farmhouse?
MR MATJENI: I went to where they were, but I would not say it's a hole, I would say it was a ditch or it was levelled at that time when I arrived.
MS VAN DER WALT: Therefore you didn't see that this remnant of scalp was tossed into a hole and covered up.
MR MATJENI: I did not see, Chairperson, I heard.
CHAIRPERSON: As you state in your affidavit.
MR MATJENI: Correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Nothing further, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Now Mr Matjeni, you've just given evidence now that you at no stage went close or near to a hole, is that correct?
MR MATJENI: At the place where they were I was there, but I did not see a hole.
MR JOUBERT: Now if I refer you to paragraph 4 on page 82 of your application, the second line thereof, you say
"We went to them, where I noticed a hole in the ground."
MR MATJENI: Yes, I will. I'm trying to distinguish the two issues, because I learnt that Bester said they dug a big hole, I saw a ditch. I would say if I can put my leg there, it would be a little bit shallow.
CHAIRPERSON: It was nevertheless a hole that you observed ...(intervention)
MR MATJENI: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Forget Mr Bester's evidence, you are being questioned about your evidence.
MR MATJENI: Yes, it was a small hole.
MR JOUBERT: And do you know whether this hole was filled up afterwards? Closed up, filled?
MR MATJENI: I'm not sure, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Did you hear ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: On papers you have stated that it has been filled up.
MR MATJENI: Yes, the filled up the hole, but I'm not sure about that, as to whether it was full or not. I don't remember well.
CHAIRPERSON: When you wrote on your statement, were you writing according to your knowledge or were you trying to remember?
MR MATJENI: I was not remembering well, but I was trying to speculate of what had happened.
MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Just one or two other issues. On page 81, paragraph 2 where you provide your list of people partaking in the interrogation, you mention Mr More, is there a possibility that you may be mistaken when referring to Mr More as partaking in the interrogation?
MR MALAN: I'm sorry, we have the last sentence of that paragraph and he confirmed that in evidence, that the black members did not participate in the actual interrogation. So it's a confusion. He says
"We were all there participating in the interrogation"
... but then he continues to say -
"It was the whites' jobs, the blacks did not interrogate."
MR JOUBERT: Very well, I'll leave the aspect there then if it is clear to the Committee.
One final issue. You've testified that you were informed by either Kenny or Smuts, that being Mr More or Mr Mathebula, about this piece of scalp that was picked up. Is it possible that you may be making a mistake as to who informed you or who picked this piece of skin up?
MR MATJENI: That is why I'm saying I don't remember who informed me about that. It may be Bafana, because he was present there. I don't remember well.
MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT
CHAIRPERSON: But you do recall that you were told by a black member of your unit.
MR MATJENI: That is correct, one of the black members informed me.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
You stated in your evidence-in-chief that you would be prepared to assist the family in detecting the place where the deceased was killed. Did I understand you correctly?
MR MATJENI: I would try to find out, but I'm not able to tell that I will be able to find that place.
MR VAN HEERDEN: Would you for example, travel around in that area with the family and have a look, or go there with an investigative team?
MR MATJENI: What I'm trying to say is that if we can take that direction, maybe I would be able to identify that place. If I'm not able to identify that place, nobody should blame me because I don't know who is the owner of the farm and it was for the first time I went there, during this incident. It is not the same as the two farms which I've stated earlier that that one was Pretorius' farm, the other one was Mr Smith's farm. I don't know where this farm is and I don't know the owner.
MR VAN HEERDEN: Are you saying that you would not be able to find the place?
MR MATJENI: I don't want to commit myself.
MR VAN HEERDEN: The only thing that bothers me is that you say you are prepared to assist, but that you have already decided that you won't be able to be of any assistance.
MR MATJENI: I don't want to commit myself so that in future I will be blamed that I stated that I will be able to show them the place. So I don't want to commit myself on that particular issue.
MR VAN HEERDEN: I just want to know if you are prepared to help.
MR MALAN: Mr van Heerden, I think that there is some form of mis-communication here. The applicant has stated that he is prepared to go out there and to assist with the search, but that he cannot guarantee that he would be able to find the place. He has his doubts because he does not know who the owner of the farm was, nonetheless he is prepared to go out and participate in a search. He just doesn't want the Committee to blame him if their search in fruitless, but he is prepared to go along and assist.
MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, I will then leave it at that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Madam Chair.
MR MALAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
ADV MOTATA: I've got none, Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Jansen?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matjeni, you are excused as a witness.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we in a position to proceed with legal argument in relation to this incident?
MR JANSEN: Madam Chair, I will, I would however just like to have a few minutes at least to get my sort of ideas in some sort of order. If you intend starting now, we'd just ask for a short adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm in your hands, I'm seeking your guidance.
MR JANSEN: I would obviously prefer to start tomorrow morning, Madam Chair, but again in that regard we're in your hands. If you want to continue now, I would just ask the indulgence of 10 minutes or so.
CHAIRPERSON: We definitely would be quite amenable to granting you whatever indulgence in terms of minutes, you sought in order for you to proceed with your legal argument today. Mr Prinsloo, what is your position?
ADV PRINSLOO: Madam Chair, if we may ask your indulgence, could we do it tomorrow morning? If I'm given time now for a brief while to get my mind organised, I could do it or attempt to do it, but I think it would be better suited if we could do it tomorrow morning, if it will suit the Committee. I'm in your hands, Madam Chair, as Mr Jansen also indicated to you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, what is your attitude about proceeding today, rather than tomorrow morning?
MS VAN DER WALT: "Ek sal maar soos 'n vrou, die minderheid wees. Ek dink dit sal goed wees as ons môre kan begin. Ek moet vir u sę dit is ontsettend warm in die saal, ek dink ons kry almal a bietjie swaar hier laat in die middag. As ek dit mag aan u voorstel dat ons dit dan môre oggend doen."
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not getting any translation. I was however able to understand what Ms van der Walt was saying. I think you've switched off your button.
INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, Madam Chair, I was on the wrong channel.
CHAIRPERSON: What is your position, Mr Joubert?
MR JOUBERT: Madam Chair, I will be able to proceed if we have a short adjournment, but I understand the predicament and I think it would probably be advisable to continue tomorrow morning. But I'll be in your hands obviously.
CHAIRPERSON: Having considered the request made by counsel and their preference to have legal argument presented tomorrow rather than today, I must say we as a Committee have decided to grant your wish to have your argument presented tomorrow, because we trust that you will be short, crisp and to the point tomorrow morning, probably better than you would have been this afternoon. So we will postpone legal argument for tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.