CHAIRPERSON: We now resume the hearing of the application of Andrew Chauke and three others. The Committee and the legal representatives remain the same, save that they have become a little extended in that we have requested Linkie Matlala Mokgokong to give evidence and she has a legal representative. Could you put yourself on record please?
MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. It's Anthony Richard, Johannesburg.
CHAIRPERSON: We have all been given and I take it you have also, copies of two statements made by the witness, two statements taken from her and we've also seen in the records a further statement which unfortunately will not photostat, it is very light print. If anybody wishes to read it, it is available. It accords almost entirely with the first statement we have been given, the longer statement. Are you going to call your client?
MR RICHARD: I call the client. May she be sworn.
CHAIRPERSON: What language will she be speaking?
LINKIE MATLALA MOKGOKONG: (sworn states)
MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, may I proceed?
EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Ma'am, do you recall where you were on the evening of 19 April 1986?
MR RICHARD: At whose house were you then?
MS MOKGOKONG: It was at ...(indistinct) parents' house.
MR RICHARD: Now who lived in that house?
MS MOKGOKONG: My aunt and her husband and my grandfather.
MR RICHARD: Now when you describe this person as your aunt, what blood or marriage relationship did she have to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: On my mother's side.
MR RICHARD: Was she your mother's sister?
MS MOKGOKONG: My mother is her elder sister.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now to whom was this aunt married?
MS MOKGOKONG: Benjamin Masinga, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: And for how long, as at April 1986, had they been married?
MS MOKGOKONG: They had some years, but I don't remember how many years.
MR RICHARD: Now were there problems in the marriage?
MS MOKGOKONG: There were times when they had problems.
MR RICHARD: And what were those problems?
MS MOKGOKONG: I would not know what kind of problems they had because when elder people talk about problems, we would just hear on the periphery that they were fighting, but we would not understand the content of their problems.
MR RICHARD: ; Now, at that weekend, the 19th of April, according to the documents before me, was a Saturday. Where was your aunt?
MS MOKGOKONG: She was at Soshanguve.
MR RICHARD: ; Why was she at Soshanguve and not at her home with her husband?
MS MOKGOKONG: She ran away from her husband.
MR RICHARD: Why did she run away?
MS MOKGOKONG: They were not living peacefully, that is why she decided to go to Soshanguve.
MR RICHARD: Why were you at that house?
MS MOKGOKONG: She requested me to stay behind so that her property would be safe.
MR RICHARD: From when did you start staying at that house that time? Was it the Friday, the Thursday, the Saturday?
MR MOKGOKONG: During the course of that week.
MR RICHARD: Now where was the deceased, Benjamin, from when you started staying?
MS MOKGOKONG: There were times when he would come and he would leave.
MR RICHARD: Now you said your grandfather stayed there as well. Is your grandfather Solly Lukubu?
MS MOKGOKONG: Correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: And where was he staying then? Was he in the house as well that period?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now, when did you see the deceased on the Saturday the 19th for the first time?
MS MOKGOKONG: Around past nine in the evening.
MR RICHARD: Would you please describe how it happened that he came back and what was special about his presentation to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He came just to survey the house and then on that day he did not behave well. He was drunk and shouted at me.
MR RICHARD: And what did he say to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He said to me we made his wife to run away, therefore I must be his wife because he's married, he cannot sleep alone.
MR RICHARD: And what was your reaction to that?
MS MOKGOKONG: I was scared, then I waited for him to sit down, then I ran away.
MR RICHARD: Where did he sit down?
MS MOKGOKONG: In the dining room on the chair.
MR RICHARD: ; What did he do whilst sitting down there?
MS MOKGOKONG: It seemed that he's becoming more drunk.
MR RICHARD: Where was your grandfather, Mr Lukubu at that time?
MS MOKGOKONG: At the time he went to prayer meeting at the funeral.
MR RICHARD: Did he come back that night?
MS MOKGOKONG: Correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now at the time that you left the house, was your grandfather in the house yet?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now you say you ran away from the house.
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now where did you go to?
MS MOKGOKONG: I ran to Maluga Street at Gilbert's place.
MR RICHARD: And what is Gilbert's place?
MS MOKGOKONG: ; It was a shebeen.
MR RICHARD: Did you go there alone?
MS MOKGOKONG: I was together with my child.
MR RICHARD: And how old was your child at the time?
MS MOKGOKONG: Do you mean now?
MS MOKGOKONG: My child was two years old.
MR RICHARD: Now what did you want from the shebeen? Did you speak to Gilbert or anyone else?
MS MOKGOKONG: I wanted to talk to Gilbert.
MR RICHARD: Did you get to talk to him immediately?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Who did you speak to when you arrived?
MS MOKGOKONG: It was his grandson.
MR RICHARD: ; Do you remember the grandson's name?
MS MOKGOKONG: Lawrence, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: ; Now what did you want from either Gilbert or Lawrence?
MS MOKGOKONG: I wanted Gilbert to help me or to accommodate me or accompany me first to go at my grandparents' home and lock and come back and be accommodated at his place.
MR RICHARD: And did you communicate that to Lawrence or to Gilbert?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: What did you tell either one of them?
MS MOKGOKONG: I told them that Benjamin is pestering me and insulting me.
MR RICHARD: And what did they say to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He called Gilbert and then when Gilbert arrived he said I should stay somewhere, then he would come back to me.
MR RICHARD: And for the sake of the record, what job did Benjamin do?
MS MOKGOKONG: He was a police officer?
MR RICHARD: Did either Lawrence or Gilbert know that?
MS MOKGOKONG: They were supposed to know.
MR RICHARD: How far away from your aunt, the deceased's house, is the shebeen that was run by Gilbert?
MS MOKGOKONG: It would be a difference of 200 metres.
MR RICHARD: What happened next, while you were waiting at the Shebeen?
MS MOKGOKONG: Andrew Chauke came to me.
MR RICHARD: Now did you know Andrew Chauke?
MR RICHARD: For how long had you known him?
MS MOKGOKONG: Years, because all of us grew around that area.
MR RICHARD: Did you know whether he was politically active at the time?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not know, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now what did Andrew say to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He called me, then I went to him, then he said to me: "Who is at the house?" Then he said: "With whom is he?" Then I told him that he's alone. Then he told me that they were looking for that person for a long time, then he asked me as to why am I there, then I said: "I ran away from him", then he said: "There's no problem, we'll help you."
JUDGE DE JAGER: Would you go a little bit slower please?
MR RICHARD: Please repeat that. You said to Mr Chauke that you had left the house. Repeat.
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that the first time you had seen Mr Chauke that evening?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: ; Now Mr Chauke, did he know the deceased?
MS MOKGOKONG: That's correct, Chairperson, because we were neighbours.
MR RICHARD: Now in the statement I have before me, Mr Chauke described the deceased and used certain words about the fact that they were looking for him. Do you remember those words?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: What did Mr Chauke say?
MS MOKGOKONG: He just told me that they were looking for him.
MR RICHARD: He didn't say something to the effect that they had been looking for that dog for a while?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, he stated that he was looking for that dog.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: Actually she used another word too, Mr Interpreter, didn't she?
INTERPRETER: Yes, fucking dog.
MR RICHARD: Now when you heard Mr Chauke describe the deceased in those terms, what did you think?
MS MOKGOKONG: Maybe they had a dispute. Because I was not staying there, I didn't know what happened before.
MR RICHARD: Now, what happened next? What did Mr Chauke say to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: We left - He informed me that: "If you can reveal what we're going to do, we're going to necklace you."
MR RICHARD: Now did he ask you anything about the house where the deceased was?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: What did he ask you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He asked me as to whether - who was in the house - as to whether Benny was alone in the house or not.
MR RICHARD: And what was your answer?
MS MOKGOKONG: I told him that it's only Benny who was in the house.
MR RICHARD: Now, did you and Mr Chauke go back to the house together?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now for how long had you been away from the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: Approximately 20 minutes.
MR RICHARD: Now when you got back to the house, what did you find? Did you find Benjamin alone or were there other people there?
MS MOKGOKONG: He was alone and then later my grandfather arrived.
MR RICHARD: And where did your grandfather go to?
MS MOKGOKONG: He went to the kitchen.
MR RICHARD: Did you talk to your grandfather?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry Mr Richard, she said she went with and went back to the - I know we've missed out a period of time, because her grandfather - what happened in the meantime to Andrew?
MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. For how long were you and Mr Chauke back in the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: We did not take a long time.
MR RICHARD: Now was your grandfather there when you got in with Mr Chauke?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry. Did Mr Chauke enter the house with you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He stayed at the door.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And when you went into the house, what happened?
MS MOKGOKONG: He went to the gate where he was staying.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now when you went inside the house, was there anyone else inside it? Had your grandfather come back yet or not?
MS MOKGOKONG: There was no person except Benjamin. I'm not too sure as to whether my grandfather found us in the house or we found him.
MR RICHARD: Did you talk to your grandfather?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Didn't you tell him that Andrew Chauke and the comrades were on the way back to the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not tell him, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Then why, when you made the statement to the police, at paragraph 9, did you say that on your arrival you found that your Oupa, that's Solly, "en Johannes en Angelina Boyie" were in the kitchen and then you carry on to say
"Ek het toe aan my Oupa gesê day Andrew Chauke..."
INTERPRETER: We don't have an Afrikaans interpretation, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Sorry, I'll continue translating. And you then said to your Oupa that Andrew Chauke and the comrades were on the way to the house. Do you remember that narrative in the statement you gave to the South African Police in 1986? It's a long time ago.
MS MOKGOKONG: I do remember, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That statement was 1988, wasn't it?
MR RICHARD: I beg pardon, Chair, it's my error. It's 1988.
MS MOKGOKONG: I remember Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now would you be able to tell us now who in fact was in the house when you came back and Mr Chauke waited outside?
MS MOKGOKONG: It is Angelina and her husband and my grandfather.
MR RICHARD: Did you speak to your grandfather?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I talked to him, but I forgot.
MR RICHARD: What did you say to him?
MS MOKGOKONG: I told him that Andrew said he's coming together with the comrades, they are looking for Benjamin.
MR RICHARD: Now do you have any reason why it wasn't clear when I first asked the question? Very well.
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't understand.
MR RICHARD: When I first asked the question, I was not clear of your answer and it didn't appear to be the same as what you've now said. Is there any reason that you can give us as to why...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I assist you Mr Richard? When Mr Richard asked you whether you spoke to your Grandfather, you said no, you didn't speak to him and now you told us that you in fact spoke to him. Why didn't you tell us in the first place that you spoke to him?
MS MOKGOKONG: I'm not changing my statement, because this thing happened a long time ago I forgot. If I stated that I did speak to him, therefore I did.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Then where was Andrew while you were talking to your grandfather? Where was Mr Chauke?
MS MOKGOKONG: He was not present, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: And what happened then?
MS MOKGOKONG: Andrew came and he called me. We were at the verandah and then he instructed me to take the child and go to the bedroom. Then I went to the bedroom. He followed me, then he went to the bedroom and switched off the main switch.
MR RICHARD: Now I heard you used the word "stoep", was I correct?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I mentioned verandah.
MR RICHARD: Right. Now did you notice anything in Andrew's - Mr Chauke's hands while he was on the stoep?
INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the question?
MR RICHARD: Did you notice anything as to what was in Mr Chauke's hands or in his possession when he was on the stoep with you, on the verandah?
MS MOKGOKONG: He had an axe with him.
MR RICHARD: And what did you gather from what you saw? What did you infer?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is when I started to be scared that they were going to kill him.
CHAIRPERSON: You say they, was there anyone else with Andrew?
MS MOKGOKONG: Some of his group were at a distance and then he kept on saying "we", not "I".
MR RICHARD: Now did Andrew say anything to you while you were standing talking to him on the verandah? Did he ask you any questions?
MS MOKGOKONG: I only remember that he told me that I should take the child and go to a room.
MR RICHARD: Were there any other people around the house, besides your grandfather and Angelina and her husband?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Did you expect to find all those people when you arrived back at the house after the trip to the Shebeen?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not expect to find them in the house, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now, just to go over it, when Mr Chauke saw that you had seen him with the axe, what did he say to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He did not say anything in regard to the axe he had on his person.
MR RICHARD: Now, you went into the bedroom. Was the house lit or dark, were the lights on or off?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Which were they? Were they on or were they off?
MS MOKGOKONG: They were on, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now at what stage did the lights go off?
MS MOKGOKONG: After I went inside the bedroom, then in the kitchen there is the main switch.
MR RICHARD: So do I understand you correctly that while you were in the bedroom the lights went off?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Now the bedroom door, was it open or shut?
MR RICHARD: Did you hear anything?
MS MOKGOKONG: I heard the stone falling down on the ground.
MR RICHARD: Did you hear anything else?
MR RICHARD: For how long were you in the bedroom before anything else happened?
MS MOKGOKONG: It can be about 15 minutes.
MR RICHARD: And then what happened?
MS MOKGOKONG: And then Andrew switched on the main switch.
MS MOKGOKONG: Then I went out of the bedroom and I found blood on the floor in the dining room.
MR RICHARD: And did you see the deceased?
MR RICHARD: And where was Mr Chauke at that stage?
MS MOKGOKONG: He was in the dining room.
MR RICHARD: Was he alone or with others?
MS MOKGOKONG: He was with the others.
MR RICHARD: Did you know any of the others?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, I did not know them.
MR RICHARD: Now tell me, where was Angelina and her husband and your Grandfather?
MS MOKGOKONG: They were in the kitchen.
MR RICHARD: And what happened then?
MS MOKGOKONG: Andrew asked for a bucket and then he said he wanted to clean the floor. He was helped by Angelina. He also asked for a spade, so as to remove the blood on the street.
MR RICHARD: Now, when you left your house that evening to go to the shebeen to find Gilbert, earlier that evening, did you have any plans to ask people to come back and do any injury to the deceased?
MS MOKGOKONG: No I did not have that intention.
MR RICHARD: Did you know where comrades, Self Defence Unit members, MK members might have been meeting that night?
MR RICHARD: Now, did you ever go to a place where they were meeting and ask for Mr Chauke?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, I've never attended such a meeting.
MR RICHARD: I'm going to rephrase that. I never asked whether you attended such a meeting, I asked whether you ever went to a place where they were meeting and asked for Mr Chauke.
MR RICHARD: Now did you know ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, I'd like to put it to you, Mr Chauke said that they were busy having a meeting at his place which was near or next to, or in the same yard where Mr Gilbert's place is, and that you came there and called him out of a meeting they were holding there, the six of them. Could you remember that, or can't you remember it?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember that.
JUDGE DE JAGER: He said that happened on that very same evening.
MS MOKGOKONG: No, that did not happen.
MR RICHARD: Did it happen on any other evening?
MR RICHARD: Now, did you see Mr Chauke when you arrived at Mr Gilbert's shebeen?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not see him.
MR RICHARD: Did you see - did you know why he came to the shebeen?
MR RICHARD: ; But he came there and spoke to you after some 15 minutes after you arrived? Is that not correct?
MS MOKGOKONG: He called me while we were on our way, we did not talk for about 15 minutes.
MR RICHARD: You've misunderstood the question. How long were you at the shebeen before Mr Chauke came to speak to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: It could have been about 20 minutes.
MR RICHARD: And I repeat, when you arrived, was Mr Chauke there?
MS MOKGOKONG: He wasn't there, I did not see him.
MR RICHARD: And to repeat my other question, do you know why he came to the shebeen?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't know why he came to the shebeen.
MR RICHARD: Very well. Now ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: There is a matter which I, perhaps in the interest of all parties should raise now, this is this other statement that you've not seen. Do you remember you've made a statement tot he police on the 23rd of September 1987?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I do remember.
CHAIRPERSON: And there you said
"On the way to Gilbert's house, I went past Andrew Chauke, also known as Eddie's house. I noticed that he and five other black men were sitting on the stoep of his house. I immediately recognised Andrew Chauke where he was with the other men. I don't know who the other men were. I didn't go to Andrew Chauke and the other men and went directly to Gilbert's home."
Do you remember saying that in your statement?
MS MOKGOKONG: I do remember. When I was asked who I saw and then I said I saw people with Andrew but I did not know them.
CHAIRPERSON: No, but do you now remember that on the way to Gilbert's, you passed Andrew and some other people sitting on the stoep of his house?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I saw the people on the stoep, but I did not know them.
CHAIRPERSON: No, but Andrew could equally well have seen you going to Gilbert's, the shebeen, is that not so?
MS MOKGOKONG: It can happen that he saw me.
MR RICHARD: Did you talk to Mr Chauke when you passed his front verandah?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not talk to them.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, the next day, did you see either the first applicant, Mr Chauke, or any of the other applicants?
MS MOKGOKONG: I saw Andrew Chauke.
MR RICHARD: And what did he say to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He said to me they have killed Benjamin and they wanted transport so that they could take him from the toilet and take him to another place far away.
MR RICHARD: Where did they find Benjamin's body?
MS MOKGOKONG: His corpse was found by the police in the school toilet.
MR RICHARD: Was it burned or unburned?
MS MOKGOKONG: They said it was burned.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now what - did Mr Chauke say anything about what you should say to anyone or not say to anyone?
MS MOKGOKONG: He said to me I shouldn't tell anybody anything.
MR RICHARD: Now do you remember that some time later there was a formal inquest into the death and that you gave evidence?
MS MOKGOKONG: I do not remember.
MR RICHARD: Do you remember going down to Court and giving evidence about what you knew about the death of the deceased, Benjamin?
MS MOKGOKONG: ; Yes, I do remember.
MR RICHARD: Do you remember what you said to the Magistrate on that occasion?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember well what I said.
MR RICHARD: Do you remember talking about whether your Grandfather was at the house or not, because according to the record of that hearing there you said something, do you remember?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I do remember.
MR RICHARD: ; What do you remember telling the Court? Do you remember telling the Court whether your Grandfather was there or not there?
MS MOKGOKONG: I remember telling the Court that he was there.
MR RICHARD: That he was there?
MR RICHARD: Isn't it correct that you told the Court that he wasn't there, at that first Inquiry? Because that's what the record says.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richard, that's rather leading. I think you should leave it there and the other people might have the opportunity to ask her about that.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, the next question is, did anyone benefit from the death of the deceased, Benjamin?
MS MOKGOKONG: His wife got his money.
MR RICHARD: Did anyone else besides his wife get money?
JUDGE DE JAGER: What's the relevance hereof, Mr Richard?
MR RICHARD: Chair there is, I am informed, ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on) think it's relevant.
MR RICHARD: ... an intimation that there was a conspiracy between the witness and her aunt to cause the death of the deceased by informing on him to the comrades and my final question on this particular approach, before I conclude my examination ...
JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now I think the last question was, did anyone other than your aunt benefit by the deceased's pension or estate?
MR RICHARD: Now did you mother or your other aunt?
MR RICHARD: Did you know that night when you went to Gilbert's shebeen to ask for assistance, a place to stay with your young two year old, that if Benjamin died your aunt would benefit, or did you even think about it?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not know about that and I did not think about that.
MR RICHARD: Had it ever been discussed with you?
MR RICHARD: I believe that's as much as I need to cover.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know in what order you want to ask further questions now. Would you like to start?
MR KOOPEDI: I would, Chairperson, although I also would have liked to have a look at the other statement, if it's possible, the one that we did not get. I don't know where that takes us really.
CHAIRPERSON: Could we take the short adjournment now then and I'll make that statement available to you.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm indebted Chairperson, thanks.
MR KOOPEDI: I have also returned the statement to your table, Chairperson. We could not make copies, I just read through it quickly.
LINKIE MATLALA MOKGOKONG: (s.u.o.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Now, Ms Mokgokong, you've said in your evidence that on this day, after Mr Masinga had come to your house, you then left and went to Gilbert's place. Now what I need to know is, when you arrived at Gilbert's place, who did you find? Who did you first talk to?
MS MOKGOKONG: I first spoke to Lawrence.
MR KOOPEDI: Where was Lawrence? Where did you find him?
MS MOKGOKONG: Inside Gilbert's house.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you remember whereabout in the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: In the kitchen because I didn't go further from the kitchen.
MR KOOPEDI: There is - in one of the statements that you have made to the police, the statement is dated the 27th January 1988 at 17h30, you stated that Gilbert was asleep and he was with another black man. Chairperson this is on page 2 of that statement, the second paragraph.
"Gilbert was asleep and was with Lawrence."
Do you remember saying anything like that?
MS MOKGOKONG: I remember that I spoke to Lawrence.
MR KOOPEDI: No, I'm referring to the police. Do you remember saying that when you were making the statement, the one I've referred you to, do you remember saying that Gilbert and Lawrence were asleep?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: She doesn't say that, does she?
MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps, Chairperson, that's my poor understanding of Afrikaans and I'll appreciate some interpretation.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Gilbert was, according to what Lawrence told her, Gilbert was asleep.
MR KOOPEDI: ; Thank you, Chairperson. I thought that both of them were asleep. Now, you said in your evidence-in-chief here that you wanted them to accommodate you and perhaps to also accompany you to go and lock at the house, is that correct? Did I hear you correct?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson, but I hadn't stated that to them yet at that time.
MR KOOPEDI: Now did anyone suggest that you sleep at Gilbert's house?
MS MOKGOKONG: At that time I hadn't yet requested that accommodation.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, I understand that you had not done that, but what I'm asking you is, had anyone suggested - did Lawrence for instance, suggest to you that: "Why don't you sleep here"?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, Chairperson, I don't remember.
MR KOOPEDI: Well, in one of the statements that you have made, you state that Lawrence suggested that you should sleep there and you refused saying that you could not do that because you wouldn't want to leave Masinga alone in the house, do you remember that?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember well, but before all these things happened and even before I spoke to Gilbert to request him for that, I left.
MR KOOPEDI: Now something is not clear in my mind. On this day, while on your way to Gilbert, did you or did you not see Andrew, let alone a group that you saw, but Andrew as a person, did you see him?
MR KOOPEDI: You did not see Andrew?
MS MOKGOKONG: I saw that group but I didn't see him being part of that group?
MR KOOPEDI: Is there a reason why you would have then told the police that you saw Andrew and you in fact immediately identified him?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now another area which is a little hazy to me is at that time, did you know that Andrew was politically active or was a so-called comrade?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not know, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Are you certain about that?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Well, I'm asking for certainty because in one of your statements, the one we don't have copies of, paragraph 14 thereof Chairperson, the witness states in that statement that she knew very well that Andrew was a comrade. Do you have a comment to that?
MS MOKGOKONG: Because during those years everybody was regarded as a comrade.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you yourself regard him as a comrade?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: I put it to you that the evidence you have given is not correct in the sense that you in fact went to Andrew's house and told Andrew that Benjamin Masinga is in the house, because you knew that Benjamin Masinga was a policeman and Andrew was a comrade. Is that not correct?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, let's go back to ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry. While you're on that, in this same document, the affidavit given after the Inquest, you also said after you stated that you knew that Andrew was a comrade, you also stated that you knew that Benjamin Masinga's wife reported him to the comrades and told them that Benjamin harassed her. Did she report him to the comrades?
MS MOKGOKONG: That was known to the police because they told me that that thing happened, but I did not know. Benjamin informed them that his wife reported him to the comrades, I did not know that.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Now you've also stated in that other statement that Masinga told you that the people in that block wanted to kill him. Do you remember that? Do you remember saying so?
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Now you've also stated in that other statement that Masinga told you that the people in that block wanted to kill him. Do you remember that? Do you remember saying so?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now here's another thing. You've stated that after leaving Gilbert's house, you went to your house, in the company of Andrew. Is that correct?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, in paragraph 9 of the statement which is on the table, you state that Andrew parted ways with you. Andrew went to the group of the 5 other people and you went home. Which is the correct version?
MS MOKGOKONG: We left from Gilbert's place together and when I entered the gate at my house, he went to his house.
MR KOOPEDI: Did he not come - get into the same yard with you - your house?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember entering the yard together.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you not remember seeing him standing at the kitchen door when you were inside the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: I used the dining room door, that is where he was standing.
MR KOOPEDI: When was he standing at this door?
MS MOKGOKONG: Whilst I was in the house when he ...(indistinct).
MR KOOPEDI: Now when you - did at any stage, that is before getting into the yard, did Andrew order you to close yourself up in the bedroom?
MS MOKGOKONG: He informed me, whilst I was in the house, when he came to call me.
MR KOOPEDI: And did you do what he said you should do?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: That is, did you go into your bedroom and close the bedroom door?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not close the door, Chairperson, but I entered the bedroom.
MR KOOPEDI: Now from where you were sitting in the bedroom, could you see what was happening in the dining room?
MS MOKGOKONG: I was obscured, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you see, that is whilst you were in the bedroom, did you see anyone in the dining room?
MS MOKGOKONG: ; It was dark and then I sat still in the bedroom.
MR KOOPEDI: So you didn't see anyone?
MS MOKGOKONG: I was not able to see, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Well, the door leading to the kitchen, from the dining room to the kitchen, is there a door, or was there a door?
MS MOKGOKONG: There was a door, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you remember if the door was open or closed?
MS MOKGOKONG: That door was open.
MR KOOPEDI: From where you were sitting in your bedroom, did you see that door?
MS MOKGOKONG: I was not able to see clearly, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm just not sure whether - I would understand if the visibility was poor, it would not be clear to see, what I want to know is from where you were sitting, could you not, or could you see the door?
MS MOKGOKONG: I was not able to see that door.
MR KOOPEDI: Now the main switch in the house, where is this main switch situated?
MS MOKGOKONG: Inside the kitchen.
MR KOOPEDI: Now how do you know that Andrew went through that door into the kitchen and switched off the main switch?
MS MOKGOKONG: I saw him because that is the only door that was open, from the dining room to the kitchen. The kitchen door was closed, so he entered through the dining room door.
MR KOOPEDI: So what you're actually saying is you could actually see from your bedroom, through the door that was open, is that what you're saying?
MS MOKGOKONG: From the bedroom, you'd be able to see the person clearly in the kitchen.
MR KOOPEDI: After the main switch was switched off and you heard what you heard, you said that - who switched on the main switch?
MR KOOPEDI: So did you see him go and switch it on again?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: In paragraph 10 of the statement, the one we don't have copies of, you state that you had obeyed what Andrew said, you went into your bedroom. Well, let me rephrase. You say in your statement that you unlocked the front door as Andrew had instructed you and you went into your bedroom to sit. In paragraph 10 you say after about 5 minutes the front door opened and you saw the light in the sitting room go off. Now, do you remember saying this?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember Chairperson because the dining room door was open all the time.
MR KOOPEDI: I don't understand. So the dining room door did not open while you were in the bedroom, or inside the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: It was open all the time.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry to interrupt. Paragraph 9 she stated
"I've done what he told me to do and the front door of the house was left unlocked."
She didn't unlock it, it was left unlocked because it was unlocked before. That's a small difference.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, I'm indebted. My question was, this door, when you were in the bedroom, was this door open or closed?
ADV SIGODI: Which door, Mr Koopedi?
MS MOKGOKONG: That door was open all the time.
MR KOOPEDI: I was referring to the dining room door, the one leading into the house from outside.
MS MOKGOKONG: That door was opened.
MR KOOPEDI: I believe on that statement, you say that you heard this door open and you could clearly hear this door open in that it hit against the wall. Do you remember anything like that?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson. At the time when the stone fell on the ground, because that stone hit the wall.
MR KOOPEDI: No, that was before you could hear any other thing, before stones could fall, you did not hear the door open and hit against the wall?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could I ask you something now? You've talked about a dining room door. Is that a door that opens to the outside of the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there also a front door?
MS MOKGOKONG: The front door refers to the dining room door.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it next to the dining room door? Is it a separate door? Same door.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. Whilst you were in the bedroom you heard something, what exactly did you hear, other than the stone?
MS MOKGOKONG: I heard some sounds which showed that a person is assaulted.
MR KOOPEDI: And did you also hear a sound like a person is being pulled on the floor out of the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: I was afraid at that time and therefore I lost my concentration.
MR KOOPEDI: Is there any reason why in that statement you told the police that you heard, that is after something fell, you heard a sound as if a person is being pulled out of the house? That is in paragraph 10, Chairperson.
MS MOKGOKONG: I could have said that, maybe I forgot, because this thing happened a long time ago.
MR KOOPEDI: ; Is there anything that you clearly remember about this matter?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, there are other issues which I remember clearly.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm asking this, you know, with no disrespect, I get confused by the many contradictions I see in the statements and your testimony. Perhaps just to wrap up, did you have any arrangement with Andrew that he will come and tell you what to do or to close the door after they had completed their mission?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember that, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: I didn't get that answer.
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember that, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Well, in paragraph 11 of that statement on the table, you state that you waited for Andrew to come and tell you to close the front door and no-one came. You then went out, you switched on the light in the dining room and Benjamin was not there where he was sitting on the table, but the door was open. Do you remember any of this?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Well I will, for finality, then put it to you that there is a lot you do not remember and my instructions are in fact that you are deliberately misleading this Honourable Committee. What's your response to that?
MS MOKGOKONG: I'm not misleading them, but what I don't remember, I don't remember and what I remember, I remember.
MR KOOPEDI: I also put it to you that you in fact knew that Andrew Chauke was a so-called comrade at that stage, a member of the SRC and a very active political person in the area.
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not know because I've already stated that at that time I was not staying there, I only came there at that particular time.
MR KOOPEDI: Where were you staying?
MS MOKGOKONG: I was staying in Soshanguve.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I don't want to pursue this. No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Before we embark on any further questions, I have a proposal to make to the gentlemen here, I'm afraid it's not as helpful to the ladies. It seems to me that we're enjoying a summer's day in Pretoria and if you wish to take you jackets off, please feel free to do so.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
MR NYAWUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm only going to ask a few questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am you've stated before this Committee that you'd been away, it's only during this week that you were around. Can you tell us, for how long had you been away from this area?
MS MOKGOKONG: It was a couple of years that I left at the area because I was staying with my mother and at that area I was visiting my grandmother.
MR NYAWUZA: So you'd been away for years from this place, is that so?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: To take the question further, Ma'am, you might not have know that Andy, as you referred to him in Court, was a comrade, is that so?
MR NYAWUZA: And you can't deny that during your absence he might have been a comrade, is that so?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is possible.
MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am, during this week of the event that led to the killing of this chap, for how long had you been here at that place, days, let's say two or three, or two weeks or so?
MR NYAWUZA: How many, if you were to approximate?
MS MOKGOKONG: It can be three days before the incident.
MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am there's been mention before this Committee that the deceased was referred to as Rambo. Do you perhaps know of such a name or is it because, if you don't, is it because of your absence?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't know that name.
MR NYAWUZA: You don't know the Rambo name.
MS MOKGOKONG: I know another Rambo in Mamelodi.
MR NYAWUZA: The Rambo that you know in Mamelodi Ma'am, who was he? Was he a police officer, or he was a clerk, or he was a Councillor, or he was an attorney, or he was a doctor? What was he?
MS MOKGOKONG: No, I just heard that there was a person called Rambo who was shooting people, but I didn't know his career or his job.
MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am, what kind of people was he shooting? Was he shooting ordinary people, or people who were in the political struggle at that time? Perhaps might you have known of that?
MS MOKGOKONG: He would just shoot even his neighbour, if you enter, he will just shoot you.
JUDGE DE JAGER: You don't know whether this could have been Benjamin Masinga?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember him staying in Mamelodi.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh, so that referred to a person in Mamelodi and not a person staying, where was this house of your Grandfather? Atteridgeville, or where?
MS MOKGOKONG: Well, I don't know his family, I only know Pelindaba.
JUDGE DE JAGER: No, but this house where the incident happened, in which township was that?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is Pelindaba.
MS MOKGOKONG: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am do you still maintain that Andrew Chauke approached you and you did not approach him? Do you still maintain that?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, he's the person who called me.
MR NYAWUZA: And Ma'am, towards the completion of your testimony in chief you stated that Andrew came back and requested a bucket to clean the blood, do you still maintain that after the chaos that was in the dining room and some silence thereafter, Andrew did come back to the house? Do you still maintain that?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, he came back.
CHAIRPERSON: While you're on that, am I correct, is that when you said Angelina helped him to clean up when he came back?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, she was with him in the dining room and she had a cloth in her hand, helping him.
MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am to take the evidence further, who is Angelina and who is Johannes? How are they related to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: They were husband and wife and they were renting a room at the back in that yard.
MR NYAWUZA: What was Johannes's career? What was he, was he a police officer or was he a doctor, or attorney?
MS MOKGOKONG: Well, I don't know.
MR NYAWUZA: Then as regards your relationship with your grandparents, you stated that you were the related to the deceased's wife through your mother. Where was your mother resident?
MR NYAWUZA: Can you perhaps advise us to - was she married?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, she was married.
MR NYAWUZA: And then what was her husband's career?
MS MOKGOKONG: He was a truck driver.
MR NYAWUZA: Then, there's been evidence before this Committee that there's a certain Mr Mashishi who was staying at his house, who was a police officer. Can you put us in the know how as regards that? Do you perhaps know this Mr Mashishi?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I know him.
MR NYAWUZA: How do you know him? Who was he?
MS MOKGOKONG: He was also married to my other aunt.
MR NYAWUZA: Married, in the same house that the whole incident happened?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am I understand they had at some stage been away from the premises, but during this same week, would you perhaps know as to whether Mr Mashishi was still resident there?
MS MOKGOKONG: They had their own house at U Section.
MR NYAWUZA: Further Ma'am, not trying to be unfair on your part, for how long had they been staying at the U's, a week, two weeks, a month, a year?
MS MOKGOKONG: It could have been about three years.
MR NYAWUZA: So in essence these people had been away for quite some time, is that so?
MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am as regards the corpse and Andrew coming to you regarding transport, telling that they wanted transport to take the corpse away, how did it happen that the corpse was found by the police officers, or whoever found it? How did it happen? Do you perhaps know?
MR NYAWUZA: How far is this school from yourself? Do you perhaps share the same fence or it may be at the stage there? How far is it from you, the school?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, it can be the same distance that you refer to, that is from here to that wall at the back.
MR NYAWUZA: Which wall at the back? Behind Andrew and company, or at the stage?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, at that place where they are sitting, just a few, few metres behind that wall was the school fence.
MR NYAWUZA: And Ma'am ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: There is a photograph available showing the scene.
MR NYAWUZA: Thanks for that, Mr Chair, I won't be taking it ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It would appear to be considerably further than the witness has just said.
MR NYAWUZA: I wouldn't be taking that very much further. Ma'am you've stated before this Committee that the deceased was troubling you. In actual fact he wanted to go to bed with you. In your assessment of what ultimately transpired, would you have said it was more harsher than you expected, the dealing with him - as regards the dealing with him?
MS MOKGOKONG: I think it was a very cruel thing that happened, I didn't expect that.
MR NYAWUZA: The help that you sought from Gilbert and/or Lawrence would have been that you either put up at their place, or you referred to locking the house, were you going to lock the deceased in the house and put up at Gilbert's place, or what did you have in mind as regards locking the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: I would lock him inside the house and had I done this, this wouldn't have happened.
MR NYAWUZA: Ma'am, you have been at this place for a few days, as you've stated. During the few days that you were at this place, you know in this area, not necessarily confined to the address at which the whole thing happened, were there any attacks on police officers in that area that you know of? If you don't know you say, you know: "I don't know of any attacks on police officers" or "yes, I do know. A, B, C happened."
MR NYAWUZA: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE: Can you tell me whether Gilbert and Lawrence, were they aware of the fact that ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you. Sorry about that. Did Gilbert and Lawrence know that Benjamin was a police officer?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I think they knew because they were not staying far from that place where we were living.
MS COLERIDGE: And did you think that Andrew knew that Benjamin was a police officer?
MS MOKGOKONG: He should have known because he would see him when he was going to work.
MS COLERIDGE: Was that when Benjamin was living there previously?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, that's correct.
MS COLERIDGE: ; But was Andrew living there when Benjamin was living there?
MS COLERIDGE: How do you know that?
MS MOKGOKONG: When I was coming to visit that place, I would always see Andrew.
MS COLERIDGE: At which stage did Andrew inform you that you shouldn't tell anything about the incident and that he would necklace you? At which stage was that? Was it after the incident?
MS MOKGOKONG: He told me before the incident.
MS COLERIDGE: And did he tell you what he was going to do to the deceased before the incident?
MS MOKGOKONG: He did not tell me.
MS COLERIDGE: Did you ask him anything? Did you ask him: "What are you guys going to do?" etc.
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not ask him.
MS COLERIDGE: Why didn't you ask him?
MS MOKGOKONG: I didn't think about that and I was confused because he wanted him for something that is known to him.
MS COLERIDGE: And did Andrew tell you that he was looking for Benjamin for a long time?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, he told me that.
MS COLERIDGE: And did he tell you why he was looking for him?
MS COLERIDGE: And then I just want to refer the Committee to the statement made by Ms Mokgokong on 27th January 88 that, at paragraph 7 on page 2, you stated that Andrew asked you whether Benjamin had his weapon with him, his firearm or weapon, whether he had any weapons on him and so forth, can you remember that?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I do remember.
MS COLERIDGE: And what did you tell him?
MS MOKGOKONG: I said he had his own weapon. I said he had his weapon.
MS COLERIDGE: Because in the statement you say you don't believe that he had his weapon, now which version is correct now? Shall I repeat the question?
MS COLERIDGE: You stated now that you told Andrew, just when I asked you the question, that he had his weapon with him, but in the statement that you made to the police in 1988, you said to Andrew that you didn't believe that he had his weapon, so can you see the contradiction in that?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I do recognise that.
MS COLERIDGE: So what is the position? Did he - what did you tell Andrew? That he had his weapon, that you believed he had his weapon, or he didn't have his weapon?
MS MOKGOKONG: What I told Andrew is that I thought he did not have his weapon with him and what is written there is what I told the police. What I'm saying now, is because I've forgotten some aspects of my testimony to the police.
MS COLERIDGE: ; Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
CHAIRPERSON: Can we now - I'm afraid I should have done it earlier, call this statement that you have just referred to as Exhibit E, the other statement made on the 7th of July 1988 as Exhibit F and then we have the statement that has not been copied, if we're going to keep that, we'll call it G. Right. Re-examination?
MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD
ADV SIGODI: On page 95 of the bundle we have a plea which was tendered in the Magistrate's Court and in the plea there is evidence, there was evidence of Andrew Chauke. In his evidence he stated, I mean in the plea he stated that you came to him and told him that there is a police official in your house and that he must come and kill this policeman. Do you know that?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't know that.
ADV SIGODI: And thereafter you left and then you went to his shebeen and then a few minutes, about 10 minutes later he followed you to the shebeen. Do you know that?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I know about that.
ADV SIGODI: Did he follow you to the shebeen?
MS MOKGOKONG: He found me at the shebeen.
ADV SIGODI: Alright. Because further on he says he called you and then you came and then you told them that there were no people, now did you tell Andrew that there were no people in the house, whilst you were at the shebeen?
MS MOKGOKONG: I told him on our way to the house.
ADV SIGODI: So was he asking you about the situation in the house as to how many people were there in the house, did he ask you about that?
ADV SIGODI: Why do you think he wanted to know how many people there were in the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: I didn't think about that then.
ADV SIGODI: But what led to the conversation, to him asking you how many people are there in the house? What led to that?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't know why he asked me that.
ADV SIGODI: Did you ask him to help you?
ADV SIGODI: Did you tell him that there was a policeman in the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not tell him.
ADV SIGODI: Are you saying that you did not say to him that there was Benjamin Masinga in the house?
MS MOKGOKONG: I told him that Benny is at the house, but I did not mention anything concerning the policeman, but I think because he knew Benjamin was a policeman.
ADV SIGODI: Did you tell him that Benjamin was troubling you?
ADV SIGODI: What did he say to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember well what his answer was.
ADV SIGODI: Did he offer to help you?
MS MOKGOKONG: He said to me he has been looking for him and he also told me that I shouldn't be worried because he'll help me.
ADV SIGODI: So what did you understand him to be saying when he said he was going to help you?
MS MOKGOKONG: I didn't understand anything about that.
ADV SIGODI: So when you went back with him, you left Gilbert and Lawrence at the shebeen, you went back to the house with him with the hope that he's the one that was going to help you, is that so?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, I trusted that he will help me.
ADV SIGODI: So he asked you how many people there are in the house?
ADV SIGODI: And you told him that there were no people in the house?
ADV SIGODI: Did he, did you then say to him that you are going to go into the house and then you are going to switch off the lights?
MS MOKGOKONG: I didn't say that.
ADV SIGODI: Because that is what he is saying in his plea explanation. Because he is saying that you said you are going to go in and switch off the light because the police official was in the sitting room and he was sitting on a chair and he was sleeping.
MS MOKGOKONG: I did not say that to him.
ADV SIGODI: But did you tell him that Benjamin Masinga was sitting on the chair?
MS MOKGOKONG: I might have told him that, but I don't remember well.
ADV SIGODI: Where else would he have had the information from?
MS MOKGOKONG: From Andrew's gate, you are able to see through the dining room at this house.
ADV SIGODI: But it was late at night, was it not when this whole thing took place?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, it was at night, but when the house is lit you are able to see through.
ADV SIGODI: Because it goes on further and says, I mean in this plea, it goes on to say that you told him that he was sleeping.
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct.
ADV SIGODI: You told him that? You gave him that information?
ADV SIGODI: Why did you give him this information that he was sleeping, that he was sitting on a chair, there were no people in the house? What did you expect him to do?
MS MOKGOKONG: I wasn't expecting anything from him.
ADV SIGODI: And then he goes on further to say that you switched off the light and then you went to call them.
MS MOKGOKONG: That is not correct.
ADV SIGODI: Alright, I'll leave that aspect. Now what I want to find out, during the time that you were staying at your grandparents' house, those few days when you were there, did Benjamin Masinga come home on any of those days?
MS MOKGOKONG: ...(indistinct) number one, he did come.
ADV SIGODI: He did come. Did he sleep over at your grandparents place during those days when you were there, during that short time?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't remember well, but if he wanted to sleep over, he would.
ADV SIGODI: As far as you know, was the relationship between him and his wife on an on and off basis or how often would he come home? Let me ask you like that.
MS MOKGOKONG: He would take time before coming. Sometimes he will come during the day and go back.
ADV SIGODI: And other times? Would there be a period of say a day between his coming or would it be a month, or would it be a week or so, do you know?
INTERPRETER: Chairperson, it seems as if we have a problem with the earphones.
ADV SIGODI: Have you heard the question? Okay. Alright. Now I'm asking what would the interval be between his coming in and his going away? Would it be a day, would be two days, would it be three days or so?
MS MOKGOKONG: While I was there sometimes he'll come twice a day for instance, sometimes he would not come for a day and I didn't understand his way of life, actually.
CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt at this stage? You have just told us, as I understand your evidence, that you don't remember if he slept over, but if he wanted to he would. Do you remember?
CHAIRPERSON: Was there a bedroom there available for him?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Nobody else using it?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct.
ADV SIGODI: Okay, the last aspect. Now the last aspect that I want to clarify with you is when Mr Chauke came back after the incident on that same night, when he asked for a spade to cover the blood, was he with the other applicants here, or was he alone?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, he came with the others.
ADV SIGODI: How many of them were here?
MS MOKGOKONG: Well, I did not recognise their number.
ADV SIGODI: But did you know if it's the same people who were with him?
MS MOKGOKONG: Well, I did not take recognisance of that.
ADV SIGODI: Did they say anything when they came back when they were asking for water? What did they say to you?
MS MOKGOKONG: The others did not talk to me, I only talked to Andrew.
MS MOKGOKONG: He asked for a bucket and a spade and he went to the street.
ADV SIGODI: And what else? Did he tell you what he had done?
ADV SIGODI: What did he say he had done?
MS MOKGOKONG: He said to me: "We have killed him."
ADV SIGODI: And the following day when he came to ask for transport, why did he come to you to ask for transport, or to your home to ask for transport, do you know?
MS MOKGOKONG: He wasn't asking me, he was just telling me that they are still looking for transport.
ADV SIGODI: Okay. Thanks Chairperson.
JUDGE DE JAGER: There's one aspect perhaps I should ask you about. I could imagine the lights shining, you sitting in your bedroom, you saw Andrew going into the kitchen and switching off the lights, is that correct?
MS MOKGOKONG: That is correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But where was your grandfather at that stage? Was he sitting in the kitchen?
MS MOKGOKONG: He was in the kitchen.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Where were Angelina and Johannes?
MS MOKGOKONG: They were in their room that they were renting, I don't remember them being in the kitchen at that time.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't your grandfather ask him: "But why are you switching off the lights now?"
JUDGE DE JAGER: And then you had darkness in the house. How could you then see that Andrew was the one switching on the lights again?
MS MOKGOKONG: After he had switched on the main switch, I could see, it was lit so I could see him.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you saw him coming out of the kitchen again?
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, one other aspect. You say that Andrew knew Ben Masinga, is that what you said?
MS MOKGOKONG: Yes, he could have known him.
ADV SIGODI: Are you saying he could have known him, or are you saying you know that he knew him?
MS MOKGOKONG: Because he would see him everyday it could have happened that he knew him.
CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that Angelina came out of the room that she was in with her husband, to come and help clean up? You've just told us when the lights were switched off, Angelina and her husband were in the room they rented. What made her - how did she come to come out with a dishcloth and start helping clean up?
MS MOKGOKONG: I don't know, I just saw her.
CHAIRPERSON: Right thank you. Thank the witness for having come forward to give evidence and assist us and we thank you for your assistance to.
MR RICHARD: ... be excused just at this juncture?
CHAIRPERSON: Is there any further evidence that has to be led, or shall we get onto addresses now?
MS COLERIDGE: No other evidence to be led, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: No evidence from our side, thanks Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: Thank you I have no address.
CHAIRPERSON: You have of course addressed us one. If there is anything further you wish to say, please do so.
MR KOOPEDI: Very briefly Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: My submission will simply be that I would request the Honourable Committee to reject the evidence of this witness. It is my submission that the evidence of this witness is contradictory to the extreme. It may well be that this is a matter that happened a long time ago. I submit that the contradictions are just too stark to be ...(indistinct) by the fact that this happened a long time ago.
Chairperson, this witness started by contradicting her statement which we have marked E, denying that she ever spoke to the grandmother. It took Mr Richard to read the statement for her to start remembering and connecting things. It is my submission Chairperson that this was not a truthful evidence.
Chairperson, I also see no reason why this witness could have told the police that she knew Andrew to be a comrade and she told the police this many years ago, but today she says that she did not know this fact. My submission is that this is not the truth also, Chairperson.
It's my submission that this witness is attempting to cleanse herself, if one can so say, from having called the people who then killed Mr Masinga.
My submission is further that it would be dangerous to even consider accepting parts of her statement. I submit that her evidence should be rejected in total. I also submit that her evidence in terms of the application by the applicants before, her evidence does not really suggest that there was any personal gain on their part, it also does not suggest that there was no political motive. Her evidence only suggests that there might not have been full disclosure on the part of only one of the applicants, who is Andrew, but I submit that the evidence she has given to support the theory that there might not have been full disclosure, the evidence is false.
Chairperson, it's my submission that it is not normal, one could say, it would be crazy for anyone and particularly an activist at that time, to have returned to this house after they had assaulted this man, had him bleeding, dragged him away, burned him, then returned to the scene. I see no sense in that and it's my submission that that could not have happened.
It's also my submission that it will be crazy again for Andrew or any of the applicants to have gone back to this witness and told her that: "You know we killed Masinga." It is my submission that this could not have happened.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But if she knew about it and, on their version, sort of invited them to come and kill the man or attack the man, why shouldn't they go back and clean the place so that she wouldn't be under suspicion?
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the allegation or perhaps the evidence of this witness is that after having dragged this man outside, you were given, you were told that the reason why this person would be taken to this public place was for people to know and see that a policeman has been cornered and killed, but the point I'm making now is I do not think that any normal person would have, after accomplishing this mission, after everything has been accomplished, go back, put himself at risk and say that, you know, we killed this person, in the first place, I submit it wouldn't be normal. I also submit you would not go back and say: "I want to clean here" because you do not want to be found at this place.
CHAIRPERSON: But you don't want the whole thing to be tied up to you, do you? You don't want the police to arrive, as they did, following blood stains, trails and immediately start questioning the girl who brought you to the house in the first place, who will immediately name you, that's what you're trying to avoid, aren't you?
MR KOOPEDI: Well perhaps that may have been the case, but one is making the submission, not in isolation. I am grouping together the fact that he would have told her that they killed him. He would go back to clean, he would go back to ask for transport. This is a compilation of facts Chairperson, which makes me come to the conclusion that it would not have made sense for any person to have gone there and put himself in that position. But be that as it may, Chairperson, my submission is that her evidence in totality, perhaps only deals with one aspect of the requirements of amnesty and also on one of the applicants.
ADV SIGODI: What about the statement which was made by Reginald Similane on page 52, where he stated that they went back to the same house and took the mat next to the door and threw it away. Then another woman gave Andrew water to wash the blood. This statement was made on the 29th of January 1988. What do you say about that corroborating here version that the applicants did in fact go back to the house to clean the blood ...(indistinct - mike not on) they deny?
MR KOOPEDI: I would say that when these accused persons made the statement, this has been after there have been arrests. This is after people have been interrogated and listened to what the police have to say. I am not sure whether this statement was done before or after the Inquest, but my submission is that when this statement was done, all the accused persons or all the people who had been arrested by then, were in the hands of the police who would have told them all sorts of things. I heard one of the applicants, I cannot remember which one of the applicants, during his testimony, a statement similar to that, I can't remember on what aspect he was asked as to why would he say so, you know, why would he say yes, it referred to Clement Mudau. Why would he put Clement on the scene? How did he know that Andrew had done that? The answer was a very clear answer which said: "The police told us that. The police told us that Andrew is going to say that", or "Andrew is saying that", so my submission is whatever might be in the statement, came after people had been arrested, came after Andrew had been arrested and the police interrogated him.
MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Mr Chairman. My address will be as brief as possible.
MR NYAWUZA IN ARGUMENT: My point of departure is on the name Rambo. Linkie is a very close relative of the deceased. He is married in the family. She doesn't know the name Rambo. The Rambo that she knows is somebody who stays in Mamelodi and from her testimony, the Rambo that she knows didn't choose who he killed. This might as well tell us that during that period, comrades did not necessarily deal with police officers, they also dealt with the outcasts, you know, people who were terrorising the community. Are we here saying - has there been evidence that Andrew, because Andrew says he's the one who spoke to Linkie, the other applicants never at any stage spoke to Linkie and that's the testimony here, the question that comes to mind is: Did Andrew distort the fact when he spoke to his co-applicants? Did he tell them that: "The Rambo that we're going to kill is the notorious Rambo of Mamelodi, or he said: "We are going to kill a police officer"?
The other factor is, a lot has been denied by the applicants. They denied having gone back to the house to clean their mess. They also deny that Andrew approached Linkie. They're saying that Linkie approached Andrew and the testimony before us today is that they approached him, so what we're going to state here is that, be that as it may, the motive for killing this chap might not have been that he's a police officer. On the part of the other applicants it might have been so. They might have been told that they're dealing with somebody else, but Andrew denies knowing the deceased, whereas testimony before us today tells us that Andrew grew up in that area, he should have known him very well. He denies knowing him, he even goes further to state that when they went into this house, when I asked him as to whether the right Rambo was killed, he said: "We went into that house knowing that we're going to kill Rambo", whom, he says, he didn't know at that time. How possible is it that you stay opposite to a person and during those times police officers were picked up by vans when they went on their shifts. I know so because I stayed with a police officer. They were picked up by vans from their residences and taken to work. He should have known that person. He's been a resident at that place, so my submission is that there hasn't been full disclosure. There are some facts that are being trampled on. There are some facts that did not come out clearly, that the applicant should have stated. What those facts are, I don't know, but the holes in their testimony tells me there's something missing, so my submission is that the application by the applicants be dismissed. Thank you.
MS COLERIDGE IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, I concur with my learned colleague, Mr Nyawuza in relation to Mr Andrew Chauke, because he was the Commander of that group and he was the only person on the evidence, that actually had contact with Linkie in the instance, Chairperson. The problem with Andrew Chauke's evidence is that he failed to take the Commission into his confidence which is - the facts aren't that material in a sense at the end of the day. He actually failed to just take us into his confidence and give us the full picture and the full story. His evidence is too full of blank spaces, Chairperson. It's just, someone approaches him, he goes into the meeting, says: "Look, we've got our target, the policeman" and an hour later they have their weapons and they go into the house. It just seems that to arrange an operation like this, there had to be some form of planning and it seems clear, Chairperson, that yes, Mr Andrew Chauke did go to that house, he did speak to Linkie, he knew exactly who was not in the house, he knew that the deceased probably didn't have his weapon with him that evening, and he failed to let us know about these small, simple details. And therefore, Chairperson, I concur with my Learned Colleague in relation to Mr Chauke's evidence, that he does not make full disclosure in the instance, Chairperson.
And there's just one other aspect which is regarding Reginald, which Adv Sigodi had pointed out, that there was evidence that they went back to the house and Andrew also failed to inform us of that and Reginald in his statement also states that they actually did go back to the house, Chairperson, so we ask ourselves whether Reginald is also not disclosing all the facts, which is also material in terms of full disclosure.
And then there's just the other element of Clement. Ms Linkie couldn't assist us very much, but I remember her saying and in her statement that Andrew did actually have an axe when she saw him at the door and then the others had other weapons. The fact that Reginald stated that Clement hit the deceased with the axe, in his statement, as well as Andrew Chauke in the Inquest Statement, that Clement also hit the deceased with the axe and there are the two conflicting stories and then at the Commission here they're saying that's not the case, Andrew was the one that hit him with the axe so in terms of that as well, there's still some discrepancy, Chairperson.
And therefore, just whether Reginald also is probably siding with Mr Andrew Chauke and also changing his evidence in a sense, Chairperson., we also have to take that into account. And those are my submissions. Thank you Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, may I reply?
CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to reply?
MR KOOPEDI IN REPLY: A very brief reply, Chairperson. Chairperson, with regards to what perhaps my learned friend, the Evidence Leaders, has just said, by saying that the applicant Andrew Chauke has not taken the Committee into his confidence, I submit that this inference is drawn from the testimony of the last witness and if that is the case my submission is that the inference is wrong. I believe that there are other people whom the Evidence Analyst would have called, who would perhaps strengthen that story, people such as the Gilberts, the Lawrences, the Angelina and the Johanneses. It is therefore my submission that because such people were not called and this witness was very contradictory, it is not correct to make such an inference.
With regard to what my learned friend Mr Nyawuza has said in terms of this Rambo question, he started off by saying that Linkie was a close relative of Masinga. I submit that cannot be correct. Linkie is a daughter of the sister to Masinga's wife. Linkie also did not stay in this house, she stayed at Soshanguve Chairperson. My understanding of her testimony is also that she was not always in the company of Masinga and would therefore not be a person who can be qualified as one who would know whether Masinga was called Rambo or not. She says in her evidence that Masinga could have slept at this house on that day if he wanted to because he had a bedroom. She does not seem to know that at that stage Masinga had about three months separation from his wife, in fact he wasn't staying in this house and the only reason why he told his brother he would be at this house, would be to collect his things. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That concludes this hearing.