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MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I call the next applicant, Mr J.H. Vlok.

J H VLOK: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Vlok, your amnesty application is in Bundle 1 from page 81 to 100 and Annexure B of page 214 to 232. Your amnesty application you submitted according to the Act, you completed it and signed it?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: In your application you mention that you were charged in the High Court, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What happened in this case?

MR VLOK: The case was withdrawn on the 11th May 1998.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what were you charged with?

MR VLOK: For the Germiston bombing.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that is for that offence that you've applied for amnesty?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you described what happened in full in Annexure A, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You then went to Koesterfontein where you received instructions, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave you these instructions and what instructions did you receive?

MR VLOK: Cliff Barnard gave me the instruction or order. He said that he received instructions from the Staff Generals that chaos must be created during the period of the elections in order to stop the elections, that the people will be prevented from going to the polling booths where they will take part in the election in order to force them to give a Volkstaat

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then get an instruction to go to Germiston?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Nicolas Barnard gave the instruction to accompany Johan de Wet to Germiston.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is there anything else that you would like to add to your application as it appears in front of the Committee?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you confirm the contents of Annexure A and B?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also heard the evidence of Mr Johan de Wet and where his evidence has got something to do with you, do you confirm that?

MR VLOK: Yes I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair as it doesn't concern Bree Street, I will not have any questions, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: Mr Vlok, page 85 paragraph 12, you just gave evidence that your case was withdrawn on the 11th May. It is not incorrect or in contrast with 12a, is the 11th or the 19th May?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, in May or the 11th May 1989, I appeared in front of them, they then withdrawn the case. Before that I appeared I think it was on the 19th May as well because it was also in May but in 1997. They then postponed it pending the amnesty and then with the last hearing they withdraw.

MR KRIEL: Page 88 you refer to your parents who brought you up in order that - and that different nations were created by God. Were you also part of this so called Israelis?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: To what church do you belong to?

MR VLOK: I'm in the Afrikaner Protestant Church.

MR KRIEL: You became involved in the AWB when you were approximately 17 or 18 years old?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MR KRIEL: And you were approximately 20 years old when you started serving in the AWB Headquarters in Ventersdorp?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MR KRIEL: And you were trained and you were the personal bodyguard of Mr Terreblanche?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: You were very close to Mr Eugene Terreblanche?

MR VLOK: Yes I worked for him.

MR KRIEL: You refer to an event where a meeting was held at the dam, paragraph 10, page 91.

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: When exactly was this meeting held?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember the specific date because it was so long ago and so many meetings were held during that period but it was the beginning of 1994.

MR KRIEL: You cannot say when?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us a year?

MR KRIEL: He said the beginning of 1994 Mr Chairperson.

Who was present at that meeting?

MR VLOK: The complete Generals and staff that were called up to that meeting and were represented, the leader himself and members of the Volksfront were present there. I do not exactly know who it was, it was too long ago but I know that the Volksfront were also represented there.

MR KRIEL: Page 92 you make reference to the fact that you looked up to General Viljoen?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: You considered him as a very good military leader?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MR KRIEL: And that you believed in what he said?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you consider him as a good leader?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, General Constand Viljoen, a retired General of the Defence Force - I'm talking now about that period there.

CHAIRPERSON: Please understand me, I'm not saying he was, I'm just asking you why did you think that he was a good leader?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, with his military background I believed that this person has got the ability to help our nation together with the Conservative Party so that he could lead us to freedom in order for us to obtain a Volkstaat and that is why I believed he was a good leader.

ADV GCABASHE: More so than Eugene Terreblanche? Did you believe in him and his ability to lead your people to true freedom more than you believed in Eugene Terreblanche's ability to that - to be a good leader?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I believed in all our leaders because I knew they had the integrity to lead us otherwise they would not have been placed there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you say, I would just like to have clarity here, you believed that these people would lead you to freedom? Were you not free at that stage?

MR VLOK: Please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think that you needed freedom in comparison.

MR VLOK: Could you just try again Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think that you needed freedom in comparison with what was available at that stage.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, we went through a period just before the elections that we believed that if the ANC comes to power we will not get a Volkstaat and that we will lose our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only reason?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, as I just said to you and to add on to that I believed in a Volkstaat, that there can be a Volkstaat where my people and I under Boere leaders and religious people could be leaded in a place where we also had a say just as other nations has got a say.

CHAIRPERSON: Now please help me here, I was never a member of the AWB, I'm trying to understand this. For me, according to the evidence that I've heard so far it seems to me as if the AWB was established mainly to establish a Volkstaat, is that not true or am I wrong?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, the AWB was established in order to look after the interests of the Afrikaner Volk, the Boerevolk and one of the things that they wanted was a Volkstaat. Mr Chairperson at that stage it was a Volkstaat, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how old is the AWB?

MR VLOK: Sir, at that stage it was approximately 21 years, I do not know now.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words it's around 1975 when it was established? Now what was wrong in the country at that stage that necessitated an organisation like that or the founding of an organisation like the AWB? Everybody knew then that Apartheid was at it's height.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, the AWB was founded as a political organisation in order to provide for the needs of the Boerevolk. We would receive training - to prepare themselves because you also knew that the ANC at that stage were busy with active terror, they attacked farmers, certain acts of terrors occurred throughout the country and that is why the AWB was founded or established in order to resist this and protect ourselves in the then government of the day.

ADV BOSMAN: What I do not understand Sir,is that in 1975 the National Party was in power and the ANC was declared enemy of the government of the day. The government was controlling the Defence Force - then where did the AWB fit in, what exactly did they - regarding or in terms of their government, what did they resist?

MR VLOK: Could you please repeat?

ADV BOSMAN: In 1975, when the AWB was established or founded, the National Party was the government of the day - they were in control of the Defence Force with the ANC as a declared enemy - then why was it they would have been needed if it was against the ANC, I do not understand it. Did you have a problem with the government of the day at that stage?

MR VLOK: At that period of time I was not a member of the AWB so I cannot comment on that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but when you became a member, you say when you were approximately 18 years old, the policy was not really different from what it was in the 1970's. What changed when you became a member?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, when I became a member of the AWB, there were various acts of terror across the country and attacks were launched at us as Afrikaners and the government of the day and I reconciled myself with the principles of the AWB and I wanted to be trained at that stage because at that stage I hadn't received any training and that is why I joined the AWB in order to, at the end of the day, also receive training and also reconcile myself with my people who feel the way I feel. The National Party at that stage was pro-ANC because the ANC at the beginning of 1990 were disbanded and made legal and at that stage there was already talk about the provision of voting rights and that would result in the fact that we would lose our country and that is why I reconciled myself with the AWB and they were opposed to this, that the ANC will come to power because then we knew that we would lose our land and it was during those times there was already affirmative action and various people lost their jobs - I could not find a job because of affirmative action before the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I don't understand it. In 1990 and 1991 negotiations started. The current President was still in jail. How did you think the land will be taken away at that stage when the negotiations were not even completed.

MR VLOK: Could you please repeat the last part of the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think that the land will be taken away, that all these other things would happen if the negotiations were still continuing in that time when you became a member of the AWB?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, the ANC was at one time an illegal organisation that committed acts of terror and attacked farmers who were innocent and now the government of the day sits down with them and negotiates with our enemy and that is why I could not reconcile myself with this.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did you think when the bombs were planted, what did you think that that was right, because that is precisely what happened and that is why we've got a hearing.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, we received instructions to stop the elections, to prevent people to go to the polling booths to take part in the elections, we wanted the election to stop in order to enforce the then government to provide us with a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I do not understand it, one of the reasons that you've just given as a reason why you became a member of the AWB was that according to your evidence, it was the enemy, namely the ANC, who terrorised the country by planting bombs and to kill people etc., innocent people, you said. Now I understand that as you've just testified but when the AWB decided to plant bombs to stop the elections, is it exactly what was decided that you were opposed to in 1990. What was your position when it was decided to plant bombs and unfortunately, innocent people will also be killed and terrorise the country and create fear amongst the people in order not to go to the election polls. Was that not the same thing? What was your attitude?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I absolutely believed, I thought that we also have the right to our own land and to be governed by our own people and to plant bombs and to kill innocent people.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, in 1991 or 1990, when you became a member, was wrong for a certain party to do such a thing because in 1994 the AWB followed the same tactics. How did you feel about it at that time?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, at that time I wanted to be trained myself by my own people in order to act as an instructor later amongst my own people and to get my people ready to offer resistance against attacks which were launched.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Chairperson.

Let's go back. You looked up to Constand Viljoen, those were your words, correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And you believed in what Viljoen told you.

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Do you agree that what was put yesterday to Mr De Wet, that about the 12th March 1994, Constand Viljoen reconciled himself with the election and he took part in it?

MR VLOK: I do not know, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: You do not know that Viljoen took part in the elections?

MR VLOK: Yes, that he took part in the elections I know, but I didn't know that he already registered at that time.

MR KRIEL: Do you agree with me that he took part in the election, his party was registered, it was one of the parties you could have voted for in the elections, he had posters put up. I believe it was the sign of the Freedom Front.

MR VLOK: Please repeat the question?

MR KRIEL: Were you aware that Constand Viljoen took part in the election?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So he did not involve himself in the struggle, he formed part of the elections?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson, but whether he had a double agenda, I do not know, I was not involved with the planning.

MR KRIEL: But here's a man who you held in high regard, he was a leader you believed in. Why did you not follow him?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was a supporter of the AWB and I reconciled myself with the objectives of the AWB and therefore I went, which I believed was the right way and that the elections had to be stopped and that we had to enforce a Volkstaat.

MR KRIEL: Here's a leader that you held in high regards, why did you not join him in the elections?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, because I could not reconcile myself with taking part in the elections.

MR KRIEL: Paragraphs 12 - 16 you mention a meeting which was held and at which there were several speeches made. If I understand your evidence correctly, one again you were only a guards, you did not really take part in the meeting.

MR VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson, I was a guard.

MR KRIEL: So you did not take part in the meetings and everything that's written here from paragraphs 12 - 16, is everything hearsay evidence, you were not there yourself?

MR VLOK: I was there. I know about all these proceedings and the speeches which were made, we were in the vicinity of the speeches being made.

MR KRIEL: And also the closed or secret one - after the closed one was finished?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: How did you form part of the closed meeting or the secret meeting?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, it was on an open air piece of ground, that's where the meetings were held and you could hear what was said but you were not present all the time because you moved around so you would have moved out of earshot, you couldn't hear what was said all the time and during consultation with my advocates we received some more clarity about this whole matter in order to bring the truth to the panel.

MR KRIEL: But that's the whole point I'm trying to make, sir. You did not hear personally at the meetings, only afterwards you heard it from other people, is that correct?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, I was aware of all these things.

MR KRIEL: Page 92 - Mr Barnard - was he a member of the AWB or was he member of the Ystergarde?

MR VLOK: Yes that's correct.

MR KRIEL: Which rank did he have in the Ystergarde?

MR VLOK: Cliffie was a Captain in the Ystergarde and a Colonel in the Wen Kommando.

MR KRIEL: And in the AWB structure in Ventersdorp?

MR VLOK: There he was my senior, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: What was his job there at head office at Ventersdorp?

MR VLOK: He was a colonel, he was addressed as a colonel and his instructions were that he did correspondence and he worked closer together with Terreblanche himself and he also performed other tasks which were given to him by the leader or by the generals who were there.

MR KRIEL: Let's move to paragraph 26 - that's page 97. The men were taken to the game farm in Magaliesberg. From there the members would have had to protect the borders of the future Volkstaat as well as the farmers during the coming elections, is that correct?

MR VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So that's why you went to the game farm?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson and also that further instructions would be given later on.

MR KRIEL: No, the impression I've had all the time is that the group went to the game farm in order to protect the borders as well as the farmers in that vicinity - that was the main purpose?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, but later we would have received further instructions, that's how Brigadier van der Merwe conveyed it. Further instructions would be given at a later stage.

MR KRIEL: Yes, there would have been later instructions but your first main instruction was, go to the game farm, protect the borders and protect the farmers in that vicinity, later you would receive further instructions?

MR VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Why did you go to Ventersdorp?

MR VLOK: Sorry Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go to Ventersdorp or why did you think you were going there?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, we were told that we're going to make war in order to obtain a Volkstaat and it would be enforced and we'd demand it from the government of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: This is before you went to Ventersdorp, so you went to Ventersdorp to go and wage a war?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you this?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, it was discussed at meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: You got a call up instruction saying you're going to Ventersdorp then you're going to go there, is that correct?

MR VLOK: I was at head office already, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the reason that you were given why you'd go to Ventersdorp or why you're going to gather there?

MR VLOK: To wage war, to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: And going to Magaliesberg was part of this instruction to wage war?

MR VLOK: It was part of the general plan.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you were told you were going to make war in order to enforce this Volkstaat, what did you think, what was going to happen. Are you going to plant bombs or are you going to wage a normal war?

MR VLOK: The way I saw it, Chairperson, was that acts of terror would be committed and if the army or the government of the day tried to force us to let go of the idea of a war we would have protected our country and the Volkstaat.

MR KRIEL: Mr Vlok, you said you went to head office from Ventersdorp.

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I was already at Ventersdorp.

MR KRIEL: Where?

MR VLOK: Ventersdorp, I worked at head office.

MR KRIEL: So you worked permanently at head office?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Day after day?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Office hours?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Who told you to go to Ventersdorp or to go to the game farm.

MR VLOK: I wasn't at the game farm, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Were you not called up?

MR VLOK: I was already in Ventersdorp, Chairperson, I was working there.

MR KRIEL: You moved up together with the men, where did you get together the first time, at the ...[inaudible]?

MR VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Who sent you to the ...[inaudible] who gave the instructions?

MR VLOK: Leon van der Merwe.

MR KRIEL: And you were told that you did not have to go to head office the next day?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, I was tasked by General Leon van der Merwe to continue with my tasks whilst the others moved up to the game farm.

MR KRIEL: With your tasks at head office?

MR VLOK: That's correct Chairperson, to ensure the security of Mr Terreblanche and the head office and the personnel who was working there.

MR KRIEL: Okay, thank you. I also understood it in such a way the whole time you've been working in Ventersdorp, you were working there as a employee of the AWB?

MR VLOK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: What was your monthly salary?

MR VLOK: Five hundred Rand.

MR KRIEL: Per month?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And your task was to protect the leader and the people at head office. You yourself was not called up as such?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I was called up and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me that we're going to be part of the total struggle and war which would be waged.

MR KRIEL: That's the point, sir. At this time there's not a total struggle, people are being sent to Magaliesberg to the game farm in order to protect the borders of the country - of the Volkstaat and these were your words, paragraph 26.

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, but at that stage I was tasked to ensure the security of head office and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me to be on standby in case other tasks were given to me.

MR KRIEL: So later he would have given you orders and the further task that he asked you to do was that you must accompany people from Ventersdorp to Koper Myburgh's farm?

MR VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Sunday the 24th, this is according to paragraph 27 of your affidavit - you were at head office, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes I was in Ventersdorp, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: What time did Koper Myburgh arrive there?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I cannot actually remember the exact time but it was late morning or almost afternoon.

MR KRIEL: Was it round about 12 o'clock that day?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, I cannot tell you exactly.

MR KRIEL: Now Koper Myburgh arrived there, Clifton Barnard arrived there and Etienne le Roux also arrived there?

MR VLOK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And you say if I understand you correctly that the AWB trailer was hooked to Mr Le Roux's vehicle?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So at this stage if those people wanted to build a bomb in the trailer and if they wanted to pull it to Germiston, they had the trailer, they also had Le Roux's vehicles which had a towbar on it, which could have pulled the trailer, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Now, can you think of a reason why Barnard, Myburgh and Le Roux went to de Wet and asked de Wet look, we need your car because you've got a towbar on your car?

MR VLOK: I wouldn't be able to say, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Would you agree with me that it's ridiculous because he had the necessary vehicle with the necessary towbar?

MR VLOK: At that stage I did not know what was going on and I would not be able to see who gave Jan de Wet his instructions.

MR KRIEL: If you look at the situation, Myburgh and Barnard, they had a vehicle, Le Roux's vehicle with a towbar and a trailer. Was it necessary to obtain another vehicle? That's the point I'm trying to make.

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, Mr Le Roux testified, Mr de Wet testified, the representatives of the family had the bundles, they knew what was written in the applications - those questions were asked to Le Roux and de Wet - this applicant cannot answer those questions.

MR KRIEL: Chairperson, surely I can continue with my cross questioning on the basis I consider to be good? I noticed it yesterday and I kept that part of my cross questioning for this applicant because now he's making it difficult for De Wet. I do not want that he must say that he must say anything on behalf of de Wet but I want from him - or the point I'm trying to make is - here's the necessary vehicle, here's the trailer and in his eyes will he agree with me - I'm making the suggestion to him that it wasn't necessary to look for another vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it that way then.

MR KRIEL: Thank you. Sir, I put it to you then that as far you were concerned it was not necessary to make use of another vehicle because you have a vehicle with a towbar which belongs to Le Roux and Le Roux is together with Myburgh and Barnard?

MR VLOK: Please repeat the question?

MR KRIEL: As far as you are concerned, the way you saw it and also seen from the eyes of a reasonable person, it was not necessary to go and look for another vehicle because here you have a vehicle with a towbar and a trailer and Barnard, Le Roux and Koper Myburgh wanted to build a bomb in this trailer and explode it.

MR VLOK: Chairperson, at that stage I did not know the bomb was going to Germiston, so I cannot answer.

MR KRIEL: But the point is they did not need another vehicle, they had one?

MR VLOK: I was not at the game farm at all. I did not know that they were looking for a vehicle, I only heard it from the other people's evidence, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: I'll leave that for argument, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok, did you belong to the Wen Kommando?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson, I was a member of the Ystergarde. I had no rank in the Kommandos.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Ystergarde?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you?

MR VLOK: I was a Captain.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

MR VLOK: A Captain, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In the Ystergarde - from whom would you have received instructions?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I would have received orders from a co-captain and officers above me and if needed that I must receive instructions from other officers that was placed in control of a specific task or operation then I would have received it from them.

CHAIRPERSON: The order to accompany people to the farms etc., in what capacity did you do that?

MR VLOK: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me that I must take all the people who arrived late to Koesterfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: At the office - what type of work did you do there?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I did security work, I was Commander, guard Commander - I placed the guards around head office as well as the leader's house and the guarders house next to it. I did paperwork and other orders that was given to me I also had to follow that.

CHAIRPERSON: By going to the post office etc?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To accompany people to the farms - was that one of those instructions, office instructions?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, that was what Brigadier van der Merwe told me when we left to the game farm - he said that I must accompany the people to Koesterfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of order was that?

MR VLOK: It was an order from my Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: But the way I understand it is that the Ystergarde was mainly people who protected the leadership.

MR VLOK: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This instruction to accompany people to the farm was not one of the duties of the Ystergarde would do you agree with that? It was not a protection job but rather just to show people where to go - if I understand you and correct me if I'm wrong?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, at that stage it was an order from Brigadier Leon van der Merwe that I'd followed.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was not an order to a member of the Ystergarde surely?

MR VLOK: At that stage it was because it came from my Commander but it was not the type of work that the Ystergarde did.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not asked to do something within your capacity as a member of the Ystergarde? It was not protection work?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, we not only did security, we were also responsible for training and any other tasks that was given to us by our officers.

CHAIRPERSON: But wasn't it one of your tasks or duties that would fall under your office duties and that is to accompany people to the farm?

MR VLOK: It was told to me Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But the Ystergarde was a special and elite group of people, is that not true?

MR VLOK: Repeat please?

CHAIRPERSON: The Ystergarde was a special unit, is that not true?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It was an elite group?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understand the evidence they mainly protected the leadership of the AWB, they also did certain training courses for new members etc?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Their work was not to go to the post office, to do paperwork, to go accompany people to a specific place etc., is that not true?

MR VLOK: In general, no, but if you do get that instruction you must do it.

CHAIRPERSON: But to accompany people to a certain place was more in the line of office work, is that not true?

MR VLOK: Not at that stage, Mr Chairperson, because at that stage people were called up to the Western Transvaal in order to protect the Volkstaat and to enforce or command this Volkstaat from the government of the day and to stop the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever go back to the office?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, everyday I continued with my daily duties

CHAIRPERSON: After you accompanied the people to the farm did you go back to the office?

MR VLOK: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

MR VLOK: Monday the 25th.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you go there - to Magaliesberg?

MR VLOK: The 24th.

CHAIRPERSON: So the following day you went back?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you take these people to Magaliesberg? The 24th, how late that day did you take the people?

MR VLOK: It was in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: And what time did you go back to the office the following day?

MR VLOK: Early the next morning, I do not exactly know what time it was.

CHAIRPERSON: So it seems as if you just helped people to get to Magaliesberg but you were constantly at the office, so your work was at the office and no other place?

MR VLOK: My work was at the office, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KRIEL: Sir, I would then like to go to the following point - the Sunday morning when Myburgh, Barnard and Le Roux arrived there - that was late the Sunday morning, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes it is.

MR KRIEL: And Koper Myburgh tells you that you must accompany him to Koesterfontein to help because they are busy to build car bombs, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, it was an order on behalf of the Staff Generals.

MR KRIEL: That is what Myburgh said to you. Did you then go to Koesterfontein?

MR VLOK: Not at that stage, no.

MR KRIEL: You only later that day with the two Botha's you went to Koesterfontein?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MR KRIEL: That is the Sunday, Sunday the 24th, correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, it is.

MR KRIEL: And, if I can just interrupt myself there, how far is Ventersdorp from Koesterfontein and how far is Koesterfontein down to the farm in Magaliesberg?

MR VLOK: Koesterfontein to Ventersdorp, I cannot say exactly I think it's plus minus 80 kilometres.

MR KRIEL: From Ventersdorp to the Koesterfontein - from Koesterfontein to the game farm?

MR VLOK: I do not know, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Did you not go to the game farm at any stage?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Did you know where the game farm was?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Let me put it this way. What district is Koesterfontein?

MR VLOK: Magaliesberg area, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: You and the two Botha's then went to Koesterfontein and met the others there and you said that the Sunday afternoon he was busy building a car bomb. In what car was he busy building this bomb?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, he was building a bomb on top of a table that had to be placed in the trailer. That is what Cliff Barnard told me.

MR KRIEL: In other words it was a normal bomb, it was not specifically a car bomb?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, I do not know anything about bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel, if it was in a trailer or a caravan or a car, it was still a bomb.

MR KRIEL: If you say so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We know what this person is talking about.

MR KRIEL: The point that I'd like to make is that it is the trailer bomb that was being built because there is still a car bomb and that is the Jan Smit's bomb and that is the point I'd like to make.

CHAIRPERSON: But we know that this witness gave evidence about the Germiston bomb and everybody knows that it was in a trailer.

MR KRIEL: It was so yes, but he uses the word "car" bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: We do not want to split hairs now.

MR KRIEL: Koekemoer was building this bomb, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MR KRIEL: Did you know Koekemoer before?

MR VLOK: Yes I did.

MR KRIEL: How long have you known him?

MR VLOK: At that stage, that is the Sunday the 24th, I knew that he was a member of the Ystergarde.

MR KRIEL: What rank did he have within the Ystergarde?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember, at that stage we did not carry our insignia or ranks but I assume he was a Lieutenant.

MR KRIEL: How did you know that he was part of the Ystergarde?

MR VLOK: Because I'd seen him at previous opportunities.

MR KRIEL: Did he wear an Ystergarde uniform, how long was he a member of the Ystergarde before this date the 24th?

MR VLOK: I do not know.

MR KRIEL: But Sir,you worked at head office.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, at various meetings many members were present and you cannot remember all the faces or how long he's been a member of that organisation.

MR KRIEL: You were given instructions to mix diesel and a another substance?

MR VLOK: Mr Cliff Barnard told me to help him - he would use me, he would explain to me and give me instructions.

MR KRIEL: Nicolas Barnard said what to you, I'm sorry?

MR VLOK: Mr Cliff Barnard gave me the order or instruction to assist Mr Koekemoer and where he would use us or where he needed us.

MR KRIEL: When did de Wet arrive at Koesterfontein?

MR VLOK: I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Was that the Sunday?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson, that was the Sunday when he arrived.

MR KRIEL: Koekemoer, according to your evidence, showed you how to activate the bomb, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes.

MR KRIEL: There were two activation mechanisms, one at the towbar and one in the vehicle itself?

MR VLOK: That is correct, yes.

MR KRIEL: Was it the same type of detonator?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Explain to me, explain to the Committee how you would detonate this bomb or activate it?

MR VLOK: He gave me a battery, he said that I must put one wire on the one pole and the other on the other pole and then the bomb will be activated or detonated.

MR KRIEL: Yes, but how?

MR VLOK: I do not know, I carry no knowledge about bombs.

MR KRIEL: But the point I would like to make, it was very simple, you've got two wires, you've got two terminals on a battery, you attached them to these poles and the bomb will explode?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And you said the same mechanism was used at the trailer as well as within the vehicle that would pull this trailer?

MR VLOK: Yes, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: If it was so simple, do you think it was necessary to take someone extra in order to activate or detonate that bomb?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Why?

MR VLOK: Because Jan de Wet was driving and my instruction was that I must detonate the bomb if we would meet up with a roadblock.

MR KRIEL: But, Sir,you could have activated from within a vehicle, that was the whole idea?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So it was not necessary to take someone with?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, my instruction was that I must drive with Jan de Wet and I must accompany him to Germiston and also to operate the radio.

MR KRIEL: Did de Wet help to build the bomb?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, not as far as I can remember.

MR KRIEL: Look at paragraph 30.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel, are we talking about the same weekend? Is it the same weekend when this witness stayed overnight?

MR KRIEL: Would you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the same weekend that this witness stayed over the night at this farm, he was sent from the office, he accompanied the people and early the next morning he went back to the office? When did all of this happen?

MR KRIEL: That is the point I'm trying to make - as I understand the evidence, he was told on Sunday to go to Koesterfontein, he then went to Koesterfontein with the two Bothas. At Koesterfontein he helped Koekemoer to build this bomb in the trailer and the same evening if I understand him correctly, de Wet arrived there and the next morning, that is the point I'd like to make, the Monday before the Germiston bomb, left Koesterfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KRIEL: No, Mr Chairperson, the point is that Koekemoer and this applicant then loaded sand in the trailer to help with the explosion. That is how I understood it and that is what I would like to clear up with the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Clear it up then.

MR KRIEL: Is this how I explained it, the occurrences, the sequence of events. The sequence of events was that on that Sunday, the morning, Koekemoer, Barnard and Le Roux came to you?

MR VLOK: Etienne le Roux, Barnard and Abraham Myburgh, they were there.

MR KRIEL: And Koper Myburgh gave you the instruction to go to Koesterfontein to go and help build car bombs. Later that day you left with the two Bothas to Koesterfontein?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: There you helped Koekemoer to build the bomb in the trailer.

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And later that Sunday Jan de Wet arrived at Koesterfontein.

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, but he then again left Koesterfontein.

MR KRIEL: Okay, he left again. The following morning, the Monday, that is the day the bomb exploded in Germiston, Jan de Wet went back?

MR VLOK: To Koesterfontein, yes Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: To Koesterfontein and you hooked the trailer on the back of Jan de Wet's vehicle and Koekemoer gave you instructions to load extra sand in the trailer?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, the sand was already loaded in before Mr de Wet arrived.

MR KRIEL: Why is it then that contradictory to your statement? Look at page 99.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, the trailer, myself and Etienne Le Roux and Cliff Barnard towed this trailer to a certain place where we loaded the sand. Mr Koekemoer helped us to load the sand on top of the bomb in order to give it weight, then Mr de Wet arrived where he hooked the trailer and Mr Koekemoer connected the wires in order for it to go to the front and that showed me that I must remove the wires when the trailer was unhooked in order to detonate the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok can you explain the contradiction,

we heard what happened, can you please explain to us the contradiction, that's the question Mr Kriel is asking you.

MR VLOK: Put the question again please?

CHAIRPERSON: I put it to you that there's a contradiction but you asked me to repeat the question. Apparently, please understand, apparently there's a contradiction with what you said in your oral evidence and what's written in paragraph 30 of your application. All Mr Kriel wants to know or all he asked you is are you in a position to explain the contradiction to which he referred. Can you explain that or can you not. If you are in a position to explain this, please do so. Thank you.

No, Mr Kriel, he does not understand what the contradiction is, could you please point it out to him?

MR KRIEL: If you read paragraph 30, the next day: "The Monday, we hooked this trailer onto the back of the vehicle of Jan de Wet. Koekemoer gave us an instruction to throw sand or soil on the bomb in the trailer to give it extra weight."

So the point I'm trying to make is that Jan de Wet was present, he was there, he formed part of the loading of the sand into the trailer and in your oral evidence you said just now, a few minutes ago, that de Wet only arrived later after you've thrown sand on the bomb and that's when he arrived.

MR VLOK: Is that the contradiction?

MR KRIEL: That is the contradiction.

MR VLOK: Chairperson, this is how I saw it and during consultation there was more clarity about this event and that's when we consulted with our representatives, Advocate Louisa van der Walt that is, in order to get better clarity on this whole thing because I can't remember everything because things happened which I forgot about and therefore we consulted to get a better perspective on this whole case.

MR KRIEL: And specifically to remove these contradictions?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And did you tell her that this was contradictory? Did you tell her paragraph 30 is not correct?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, I didn't.

MR KRIEL: Mr Vlok, the loading of the sand into the trailer is quite an important issue, surely you can recall that? Give us the facts now as you remember them. Let's just make sure what is your version with regards to the facts.

MR VLOK: I was given instruction ....[intervention]

MR KRIEL: Sorry, I do not want you to speak about the instruction, I'm talking about the loading of the sand into the trailer, can you still remember it, can you see it? How you physically loaded the sand into the trailer. Where was the trailer, where was the vehicle?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, how I remembered it is we hooked the trailer on Etienne's vehicle, we pulled it to the land where there was a lot of loose soil, we took spades and used the spades to throw sand on the back of the trailer.

MR KRIEL: You said it was hooked to Mr Le Roux's vehicle?

MR VLOK: Yes, we pulled it into the land. There's a road right next to the land, we unhooked the trailer and we unloaded the sand in there.

MR KRIEL: And you said it was Mr Le Roux's car who towed the trailer there? What kind of vehicle was it?

MR VLOK: I cannot remember exactly what vehicle it was Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: What colour was it?

MR VLOK: I cannot remember, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Why do you remember that it was Le Roux's vehicle?

MR VLOK: Because it was said there that it was Le Roux's vehicle.

MR KRIEL: But you do not know?

MR VLOK: I cannot say with certainty.

MR KRIEL: Why do you say things under oath which you do not know? That's the question. If you do not know that why should we believe anything else you say?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, that's how I saw it that it was Etienne Le Roux's vehicle.

MR KRIEL: Sir, so you drove with de Wet to Germiston?

MR VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: In paragraph 31 you talk about the fact that later on the radio you heard about the explosion in Germiston. Was that the car radio you're talking about which was in the car or were these the extra radios you were carrying to be in connection with each other or both?

MR VLOK: It was the car radio, sir.

MR KRIEL: So De Wet's car had a car radio in it?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So you could listen to the news on the car radio?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: You said "we loaded sand into the trailer" - who is the "we"?

MR VLOK: Me, Etienne Le Roux ....[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Give the answer in the light of what Mr Malan asked you - how do you remember the facts now - who are the "we"? Who took the car and the trailer to the land, who had the spades etc?

MR VLOK: Sir, Etienne le Roux was there, I was there, Cliff Barnard, Abraham Myburgh and Koekemoer was there. We hooked the trailer, we unhooked it.

CHAIRPERSON: Was de Wet there?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson. We hooked the trailer, we drove then we stopped, we unhooked it, we loaded the sand in the trailer and at that stage de Wet arrived. He turned around his car, we stopped him, we hooked the car to this trailer.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue, did de Wet arrive there while you were busy loading the sand or were you finished?

MR VLOK: No, we were finished, we were standing there and then de Wet arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: And the trailer was still hooked onto Le Roux's vehicle when de Wet arrived?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was Le Roux's vehicle?

MR VLOK: He pulled it away.

CHAIRPERSON: But was the vehicle there? Mr Le Roux's vehicle that is?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you unhook it?

MR VLOK: Because instructions were given that Jan de Wet would tow the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that?

MR VLOK: Cliff Barnard, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that de Wet was going to come?

MR VLOK: We waited for him, Chairperson because he was tasked to come there. He was tasked to hook the trailer onto his vehicle because I was told to drive with them.

MR KRIEL: The contradictions in paragraph 30, when did you notice them?

MR VLOK: Now you mentioned it to me, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Not yesterday when Mr de Wet gave evidence?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Did you not want to discuss it with your legal representative?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: At any stage were you arrested after these explosions?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson. At a very later stage I was taken into custody.

MR KRIEL: When was that and how long were you under arrest?

MR VLOK: Please repeat?

MR KRIEL: When were you arrested and how long were you in custody?

MR VLOK: I was arrested - I can't remember exactly but I think on the 3rd August 1996, it was on a Saturday morning. I was detained in Germiston up until the Monday morning and then I was taken to the district court.

MR KRIEL: Two or three days?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So at all times you had access to legal representatives and the legal representatives that's now supporting you?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: In other words you were not behind bars, you didn't have problems making contact with people outside of prison?

MR VLOK: I was behind bar, Chairperson, for three days.

CHAIRPERSON: The Monday you got bail or what happened?

MR VLOK: Yes, I received bail.

CHAIRPERSON: And from that Monday up until the time you received bail, it's put to you that you were free, a free person and at any time you could have spoken to a legal representative? Now answer that please?

MR KRIEL: That was 1996 you said?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: When you were free.

MR VLOK: End of 1996.

MR KRIEL: Up until now?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And you knew about the chaos concerned with the Germiston bomb?

MR VLOK: Afterwards Chairperson?

MR KRIEL: Yes, the chaos which was caused by the Germiston bomb, the loss of life, the damage to the buildings which were destroyed, the vehicles?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson, I saw it on television.

MR KRIEL: And you knew people were injured at that explosion?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Now I'm asking you the same question the Chairperson asked Mr de Wet yesterday. At this time did you try to make contact with any of the people who were injured or whose property was damaged or whose family members died?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Why not?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I acted in the interest of the AWB and I reconciled myself with the objectives in order to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat for my people.

MR KRIEL: But in 1996 the election was long time finished. Why couldn't you approach these people - the elections were already finished for two years, it happened two years ago.

MR VLOK: I could have, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: The ideals of the AWB - are they still close to your heart today?

MR VLOK: Sorry?

MR KRIEL: The ideals of the AWB - do you still consider them very important, are they still close to you?

MR VLOK: The ideals of the AWB - Chairperson, my mission is to continue with my life and I do not associate myself with any political party any more.

MR KRIEL: So when did you remove yourself from the ideals of the AWB?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I now came to the realisation that our leaders are not prepared to support us and at that time we were just used as pawns in order to obtain their objectives. We were misused by them.

MR KRIEL: When did you come to this decision?

MR VLOK: I can't tell you exactly when but at this stage that's my feelings Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Was it a month ago, a week ago, a year ago or a day ago or maybe an hour ago?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, my trust was still in Terreblanche and his Generals and staff and other leaders who were willing to give instructions at that time and I was prepared to fight and at this stage it's not the case - they are not willing to stand with us. They are not prepared to seek reconciliation and now I am now under the impression that these people would not support and assist us, Chairperson. I cannot reconcile myself with that any more.

CHAIRPERSON: When did this happen that you realised that you no longer want to be part of the AWB?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, just after the elections, when I was on the run.

CHAIRPERSON: That's four years ago round about?

MR VLOK: Yes, plus minus, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And in the four years after you've left the AWB and their ideologies and you didn't reconcile yourself with anything that the AWB stood for. Could you not have made contact with any of these people who were either injured or who lost family members or damage to property, couldn't you make contact with any one of them and say to them "I'm no longer with the AWB, I'm sorry."?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson, I did not. Afterwards, after the elections took place, I absolutely felt and I believed that the AWB would take responsibility and that they would also come to find reconciliation.

MR KRIEL: And in four years neither the AWB nor Mr Terreblanche came and said "we'd take responsibility."?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, not that I know of.

MR KRIEL: Cliffie Barnard - do you know what his position is?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, he is in prison.

MR KRIEL: Well with regards to the truth with regards to an application for amnesty, do you know what his position is?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, as was submitted to the Committee, Nicolas Barnard withdrew his Application for Amnesty.

MR KRIEL: We'll get there later. Koper Myburgh - he was also on the run after these bombs exploded - is that correct?

MR VLOK: I do not know.

MR KRIEL: Did Koper Myburgh continue to plant further bombs?

MR VLOK: Where was this, Chairperson?

MR KRIEL: Amongst others, in the Cape?

MR VLOK: I do not know Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: You have no knowledge of that?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, all I know of is what we heard now, that he was found guilty of those bomb explosions, Chairperson. At that stage I did not know. I do know now.

MR KRIEL: And did your advocate give you access to Bundle A which was submitted by Advocate Landman?

MR VLOK: I do not know which bundle you are referring to.

MR KRIEL: The advocate did not give you access to Bundle A?

Mr Chairperson, I realise that it's almost eleven o'clock, there's a few points that I need clarity on - I don't know if it's maybe a good time to adjourn?

J H VLOK: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: (cont)

In April 1994, did you believe in the AWB ideology of a pure race - is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, that every nation has got it's right to be governed by their own people.

MR KRIEL: Is that what race purity means or purity of race means?

MR VLOK: That is how I see it Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And now, in 1998? Do you still believe in the purity of race?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, at the moment I am here in front of the Truth Commission to explain my participation in the period before the election in the revolution and to continue with my life and to get amnesty for it.

MR KRIEL: And now in 1998 - what is the borders of the Fatherland at this stage?

MR VLOK: Would you please put the question again?

MR KRIEL: Now in 1998, what is the borders of this Fatherland currently?

MR VLOK: Of what Fatherland?

MR KRIEL: That is what I would like to know from you. Your Fatherland today. Not the Volkstaat - the Fatherland?

MR VLOK: Could you please repeat again?

MR KRIEL: The Fatherland, the Fatherland now - what is the borders of the Fatherland now?

CHAIRPERSON: Does something like that exist for you?

MR VLOK: No, at this stage there's unfortunately not a Volkstaat or a Fatherland that is only governed by the Afrikaner Boerevolk.

CHAIRPERSON: You say unfortunately - are you still planning in the future to get something like that?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, but I believe at this stage that the ANC government will provide us with land where we can be governed by our own people and that is why I am in front of this Truth Commission in order for reconciliation and in the hope that the ANC government of the day will give us a piece of land where we can be governed by our own people.

CHAIRPERSON: And who will govern it?

MR VLOK: Please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: What party will govern that piece of land?

MR VLOK: Will want to give it, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about govern.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I do not know what party but it will be represented by the Afrikaner Boerevolk.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you do not get this piece of land?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, that decision rests with the ANC/SACP government that is governing this country at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: But if they decide not to give that piece of land to you, what will your action be then?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, then I will discontinue with my life as it is at present.

CHAIRPERSON: And why did you not do that four years ago?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, at that stage my belief in my leaders and the AWB and I believed that they will be able to get us a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened if there had been a better leadership?

MR VLOK: I would not be able to say, Mr Chairperson, I cannot say because that is not the case.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, your problem now with the whole ideal and the AWB is the leadership that abandoned you, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Amongst other things, yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the other things? I haven't heard what other reasons you've given because you're not a member of the AWB any more.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, as I said earlier on, we were abandoned by our leaders and the top structures or we were given instructions rather to do these activities in the name of the AWB and we reconciled ourselves with them, we trusted them and the nation out there and now that we came to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we asked for reconciliation and truth and now they're not prepared to stand with us and that is why I'm disappointed.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that the reason you're not a member of the AWB any more?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason or are there other reasons?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes what - is that the only reason?

MR VLOK: Yes, that is my reason.

CHAIRPERSON: What will happen then regarding membership in the AWB if a democratic election takes place within the circles of the AWB and the leadership or the leaders are someone else - in people whom you trust and not the people who abandoned you now?

You say that the only reason why you are not a member of the AWB is because the leadership - that you are angry with them, with this leadership, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your position regarding membership of the AWB - what will your position be if there's changes or a complete change of the leadership of the AWB?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I will not be a member of any political organisation again because I believe that there's other methods to, if so, obtain a Volkstaat from the ANC government.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is that?

MR VLOK: Through negotiations because that is why I'm also here - to ask for reconciliation and to tell the truth about the deeds.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is all.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Vlok, when you gave your evidence this morning, you said that you confirmed not only your own evidence but the evidence given by Mr de Wet yesterday, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: In so far as it affected you? Now you agree therefore that no one in the AWB ever issued an instruction for the killing of innocent civilians, which was Mr De Wet's explicit evidence two or three times yesterday?

MR VLOK: Could you please repeat?

MR BRACHER: Mr de Wet said two or three times yesterday that nobody in the AWB leadership gave instructions for the targeting of innocent civilians by bombs, due you agree with that evidence of Mr De Wet?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because instructions were given by Cliff Barnard that we must detonate the bomb in Germiston and Mr Barnard did tell us that it came directly from the Generals and staff.

MR BRACHER: Do you want to add anything or is that the only instruction you know from an AWB member to target innocent civilians?

ADV PRIOR: Actually, that's a good point.

MR BRACHER: Was that Mr Barnard's instruction that you should target innocent civilians when you went out with the bomb on the Monday?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, his instruction was that we must go to Germiston in order to detonate the bomb and he there mentioned that it was the instruction that we must - to do acts of terror amongst the people who would like to take part in the elections and to stop the elections in order to force them to provide a Volkstaat.

MR BRACHER: Is that your answer? Did he tell you to target innocent civilians?

MS VAN DER WALT: That was not the instruction, that was not the target. He just said what the target was and what the purpose was.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand your objection?

MS VAN DER WALT: The witness was asked what was the order of Barnard, was it to kill innocent people and the applicant very seriously and clearly put it that the instruction was to plant a bomb in order to - as an act of terror - in order to stop the elections and that was his instruction. If the conclusions are made then it's another story but that was his instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you then rephrase your question, Mr ...[inaudible]

MR BRACHER: Mr Chairman, I always know when I've got a good question when I get interrupted by Advocate van der Walt. I'm not rephrasing the question, I want an answer to that question - did Mr Barnard tell you to target innocent civilians explicitly. I'm entitled to an answer to that question, yes or no?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, Nicolas Barnard - and I say again what I said earlier on - gave me the instruction to go with the vehicle to Germiston to detonate the bomb there as an act of terror, that people must be killed in order to create panic amongst the people so that we can try and attempt to stop the elections and that a Volkstaat will be enforced.

MR BRACHER: Is that all he said to you about the target?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I was not involved in the planning of the bomb, that was my order.

CHAIRPERSON: So including the instruction then it was also said that people must lose their lives?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Okay now, that's what Barnard said to you, has anybody else said anything about targeting innocent civilians in the AWB leadership?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, people that talk about war and we went up to wage a war, to stop the elections and to force them to give us a Volkstaat and war talk - there was talk about a definite possibility of people who would be killed but the direct instruction that I received was from Cliff Barnard.

CHAIRPERSON: Concerning your own opinion, was there ever a possibility before you decided on war that this Volkstaat will be handed over, was that not one of the options in your own opinion?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You see, you said in your evidence however "ons moet die mense verhoed om by die stembusse uit te kom" we want to prevent the people from getting to the polling booths. Now what did the Germiston bombing have to do with that, how did that prevent people from voting?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, it was said to us that the bomb would create so much chaos and panic that the people would fear to go to the polling booths.

MR BRACHER: Well they'd have a fear of going to taxi ranks in Germiston, that's all they'd fear from your bomb?

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps to a bank.

MR BRACHER: Perhaps to a bank - why would that prevent them from voting? Why didn't you choose voting booths?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was not part of the planning of the bombs, where they must be planted.

MR VLOK: No, but when you set the fuse you knew you were going to kill. When you put the battery and the two pieces of wire together you knew who you were going to kill - absolutely random, innocent people. Why did you do it?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I acted on behalf of the AWB and I believed that we will get a Volkstaat and that this bomb that I detonated would prevent people from voting in the elections. The elections would be postponed if possible.

MR BRACHER: But if that is your intention, why not target voting booths or something to do with the election? That's your best target if that's you aim?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, that was my instruction and I executed this order or followed this order.

MR BRACHER: Whose instruction was it to target random, innocent people in Germiston? It wasn't Barnard.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was told there at Koesterfontein by Cliffie that I must go with in the Germiston bomb - I wasn't part of the planning, I cannot give account for what was said.

MR BRACHER: Who chose the target?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was not present - of where the bomb must be planted.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you where to plant this bomb?

MR VLOK: Cliff said that it must be in Germiston and that Etienne le Roux will drive the guide vehicle to indicate specifically where we must plant this bomb.

MR BRACHER: Who told you that that was the point where you must arm the bomb?

MR VLOK: Etienne le Roux, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now, why in your application and in your evidence in chief did you hide the fact that you were a Captain in the Ystergarde? Would you like to look at it? It doesn't appear in your written application at all, it didn't appear in your evidence, it came out by chance in the cross-examination.

MS VAN DER WALT: With respect Sir,it cannot be said that he hid the fact - his evidence was that we're trying to save time - we confirm that was said in here and in this first question that was put to him what his rank was, he said - if it was not in his application it is not saying that he hides the fact. How can such a statement be made?

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt, I do not know what form you used but if we look at the usual form, page 81, 82, question 7.

MS VAN DER WALT: It says a member of the Ystergarde, it did not say he was a Captain but it is a reason to say that he hid the fact.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this also not splitting hairs again - the applicant said that he was a Captain.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way - Mr Vlok, why is there any specific reason why you did not mention in your written application that you are a Captain of the Ystergarde?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: There was a reason because you wanted to give the impression that you were a simple of the Ystergarde taking orders from Koper Myburgh. He had no higher rank than you, did he?

MR VLOK: Please repeat the question?

MR BRACHER: The reason you hid the fact that you were a Captain was because you wanted to give the impression that you were an ordinary member, taking orders from people above you like Koper Myburgh who was not in fact of a higher rank?

MR VLOK: That is not the case Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Is it correct that Myburgh was not of a higher rank than Captain?

MR VLOK: Are you talking about Abraham Myburgh?

MR BRACHER: Ja, what was his rank?

MR VLOK: He was a Captain.

MR BRACHER: And were you one of the lucky few to know what Barnard's rank was?

MR VLOK: Please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know ...[intervention]

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, Cliff Barnard.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he?

MR VLOK: He was a Captain in the Ystergarde and a Colonel in the Kommandos.

MR BRACHER: Now one of the reasons you decided to join the AWB was because you were shocked by the fact that the ANC had attacked innocent Boere, is that right?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Why were you shocked by that fact particularly?

MR VLOK: At that stage, Chairperson, the ANC was not yet in power and they caused acts of terrors in order to obtain their objectives and therefore I was shocked that they would have taken the lives of innocent people because in the process in which they believed was correct and therefore I also wanted to be ready - I also wanted to be trained in order to protect my people and to protect myself, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now that's right - you wanted to be an instructor so that you can defend your people, is that right, against these attacks on innocent people?

MR VLOK: To train them to enable them to defend themselves against these attacks.

MR BRACHER: Yes, you wanted to instruct people how to defend themselves against these attacks on innocent people, is that right?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: And you said in paragraph 4 "the courses entailed drills, baton handling, weapon handling etc." Paragraph 4 - that etc. does not include the making of bombs, does it? You had no instruction in the making of bombs because when you said you met Koekemoer you didn't know anything about bombs?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, Koekemoer himself did not know how to make a bomb, that's why Koekemoer asked me to help me mix the diesel and fertiliser.

MR BRACHER: The "opleiding" which the instructions and courses that you attended and gave on behalf of the AWB did not include the making of bombs, car bombs?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

I don't quite understand you last answer, you say Koekemoer himself did not know how to make bombs, that's why he asked you to mix the diesel? That's what I picked up over the translation. Just repeat that?

MR VLOK: No, then I contradicted myself. Koekemoer was the man who built the bomb, he was the man with the expertise - that's what Barnard told me. Koekemoer was the man with the expertise and he makes the bombs and because of that he gave me instruction to help with the other men to mix the fertiliser and diesel.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you misunderstand with the question the lawyer asked you and then you gave another answer because now you've changed your whole answer?

MR VLOK: I don't know what I said before but that's what I meant Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The previous time you said that Koekemoer himself did not know how to build bombs and therefore he asked you to mix the fertiliser.

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I listened to his Afrikaans words. Mr Malan also says that I am correct, we heard you correctly the first time. All I want to know is - Mr Brasher's question now - what did you misunderstand and then you gave the wrong answer which differs so much with the answer you've just given now?

MR VLOK: Then I just contradicted myself, Chairperson and I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's accept that you contradicted yourself or what led to the fact that you contradicted yourself? What did you misunderstand, what did you understand with regards to the question Mr Brasher asked you?

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I can't remember that. I think he asked to the effect - the instruction you were given to people did not include the making of bombs and it was only Koekemoer who was the expert when it came to the making of bombs, that was his question I believe and you yourself gave instructions to others, trained other people - you had no knowledge to the making of bombs?

MR MALAN: Chairperson, the answer in my notes is the following, he referred you to paragraph 4 of your statement and he read here about the nature of the training and he referred to the "etc" and he was asking if this "etc" also refers to the making of bombs whether he also received instructions about how to make the bombs and then said that you did not receive such an instruction and then he asked you your comment and then you answered that Koekemoer himself did not know how to make a bomb, he asked you to mix the fertiliser and diesel and when you were told that you said Koekemoer himself did not know, you said "well I must have contradicted myself then." Now the question is, did you misunderstand the question or try to explain why you said Koekemoer himself did not know. That's the point.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, then I misunderstood the question and I did not hear him correctly because I know the Chairperson asked if it included bomb making and I said no, it was not included in the training, bomb making that is.

CHAIRPERSON: But what did you misunderstand, that's what I would like to know?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, if I have it right, there were two questions he asked. The first one was "was it included in our training?" and I said no and the second question I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: What led to your answer - let me finish please - and what led to the fact that you said Koekemoer himself did not know how to make bombs?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, what I meant there was - what I understood was - the advocate asked me if - I do not know Chairperson, I thought he wanted to know why I helped with the making of the bomb. That's why I said my instruction was - and I received my instruction from Koekemoer but then I contradicted myself when I said that Koekemoer did not know how to make a bomb. Koekemoer was a trained man in civvy street with regards to these things.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this point will be properly dealt with in argument, Mr Brasher, we're not going to ...[inaudible].

MR BRACHER: The way I phrased the question was that the "ensovoorts" couldn't have included the making of bombs because the first time he saw bombs being made was when he saw Koekemoer was making them or something to that effect but I don't need to go any further than that.

Mr Vlok, when did you first know that General Viljoen was taking part in the election?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I don't remember exactly when and I am speaking under correction and I do not want to lie, I do not want to dare giving you an answer - it was at the election and the fact that he actually took part, so let's say the day he took part in the election.

CHAIRPERSON: You were at the office of the AWB is that not true?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the office of the AWB not know at least a week before the election that Viljoen was going to take part in the elections?

MR VLOK: They should have, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How come did you not know?

MR VLOK: I cannot remember, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, I want to tell you that I don't believe you because everybody has given evidence that the AWB is not just an army, it's also a political organisation and I cannot believe that you could go through this time of preparing for war without taking notice of what was going on in the politics of this country and if that is your answer, tell me that is what you did.

MR VLOK: Please repeat?

MR BRACHER: Let me just start it again. I'll put it simpler to you - are you telling this Commission that you moved from being an ordinary office worker of the AWB to bombing innocent civilians without keeping track of the political events in this country?

MR VLOK: I don't know if I understand you correctly but my answer is I had instruction which I had to execute and I acted on behalf of the AWB and I committed this act.

MR BRACHER: If your instruction was to prevent the election did you go ahead with your activities without knowing what was going on in the election down to the most basic thing as to who the candidates were?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I knew who the candidates were, unfortunately I cannot remember all of them but I continued with my instruction because at that stage it was my instruction and I executed it in the name of the AWB - it was to stop the election and to enforce a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Vlok you've just said that you cannot remember if you knew or if you knew it was at the moment of the election that Viljoen decided to take part in the elections. Now you are saying you knew who the candidates were but you can't remember who all of them were but surely the name of Viljoen, you must remember that, you must remember whether he took part in the elections?

MR VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's your position, did you know or did you not?

MR VLOK: I did know Chairperson, but I can't remember the exact date. I think the question earlier was when, I cannot remember exactly when - it was shortly before the elections, it's then I realised Viljoen would take part in the elections because it was on the pamphlets and it was also on television news.

CHAIRPERSON: Now before we speak of Mr Viljoen - without trying to make a suggestion that it's not true, each of the applicants came here and testified and this includes you, to the effect that the fact that Mr Viljoen decided to take part in the elections, the AWB was not certain whether he had a double agenda and you continued because the possibility still existed that he would also take part in the war, can you remember that?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was that aspect discussed amongst your co-members, did you discuss it with anyone that this is the possibility - maybe he's taking part in the elections but we know that there's a good possibility that he's also going to take part in the war at the same time. Did you discuss this with anyone?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Chairperson, I didn't physically discuss it with someone but I know there was talk also at head office that there's a possibility, the doubt was there whether he is going to take part in the election - he registered.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who said that?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I cannot remember the exact people but I know it was said at head office.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's quite important, Mr Vlok. The status of Mr Viljoen was discussed and what his capacity would be in the war or the election - it's two opposing tactics - why can you not say who told you this or who discussed this?

MR VLOK: The importance of the matter is, is that I acted on behalf of the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we know that, Mr Vlok, I'm asking you a simple question. Why can you not say who discussed Viljoen's status in the whole affair at the head office?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, if I remember correctly it would have been General Andries and the leader himself must have been there, Chairperson, Eugene Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: And Andries who?

MR VLOK: Andries Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR VLOK: And definitely some of the female personnel who were working there at that stage but the importance for me is that even though he continued with the election and maybe didn't identify himself with us any more - the principle of the matter is, is that we identified ourselves with Terreblanche and his political organisation which is the AWB and we acted on behalf of them, we fought for them and the Conservative Party and the Afrikaner Volksfront formed a coalition and they would have also have offered their assistance so I continued to believe that there would be a Volkstaat and that war would be waged for that purpose and that's why we committed these acts and that's why we went there, in order to fight a war to obtain our Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: If that's the case, why on one of Kriel's questions you answered "well he might have taken part or he maybe planned to take part in the election" but you thought he might have had a double agenda?

MR VLOK: That's how I saw it, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are saying it didn't matter to you whether he was part of it or not.

MR BRACHER: You see, Mr Vlok, that's exactly the point. The key to getting the army involved was General Viljoen and by the time you arrived there or by the time the AWB members arrived there on about the 14th April, you knew that that was no longer a possibility because you knew by then General Viljoen was taking part in the election, is that correct?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, I told you that I cannot tell you exactly when but at that stage, I knew that it was said by General Etsabeth at the Trimpark and he said that the army, in co-operation with the police, would also lend us assistance.

MR BRACHER: Well the key to this uprising was General Viljoen with his "milit1êre opleiding". You say in paragraph 11 at the top of page 92 - you believed because of his military background that he will lead the Afrikaner to freedom and that was what this gathering was all about.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I believed that General Viljoen would assist us because he talked about thousands of men who he had available to provide or to assist us, the AWB, to reach this goal of ours. Please repeat the second part of the question?

MR BRACHER: I said that was the key to the whole movement -was General Viljoen with his military background leading you with the help of the army to your Volkstaat. By the time you arrived there on the 14th, by the time the AWB arrived to gather on the 14th April, that was no longer a possibility because he was part of the election.

MR VLOK: At that stage I did not know that, that he was already part of the election.

MR BRACHER: Well then you didn't take any notice of what was going on in the election that you bombed people about, is that correct?

MR VLOK: I was aware what was going on.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, if we're to believe your evidence, you killed innocent people without knowing anything about the political events of major importance in this country.

MR VLOK: But Mr Chairperson, my instructions were given to me by my officers.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it as follows, Mr Vlok, as I understand your evidence, you did not know of what was going on politically and in this country just before the election -that was war and that is it, is that correct?

What would have happened if the government of the day said to the AWB "here, take your Volkstaat" - you would not know about it, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, we would have.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

MR VLOK: I believe that our leadership, our Generals, would have conveyed it to us as the message just came to us.

CHAIRPERSON: But you worked in the office - would you not have known about it?

MR VLOK: I would have, yes Mr Chairperson and I believed an instruction would be given to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know everything that was going on there regarding politics when you worked there?

MR VLOK: : No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Especially where it was about the AWB?

MR VLOK: Yes, more or less I knew everything that had to do with the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Viljoen decided that he was going to take part in the elections, did the whole world, basically the whole world took note of the statement that he made and in the AWB office they did not know about it? The day when he made this announcement.

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, they did know about it.

CHAIRPERSON: You know about it?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So, you knew?

MR VLOK: That he was going to take part - yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is the day when he announced it?

MR VLOK: Yes, but I cannot remember the specific date.

CHAIRPERSON: But that was weeks before the election?

MR VLOK: I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before the meeting or the whole operation did you then know that you will not have the support of the whole Defence Force?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was under the impression that the Defence Force will be present because General Etsabeth said that the Defence Force will assist us and that they will provide us with equipment and armoury.

CHAIRPERSON: That person, was he a formal member of the Defence Force or was he an AWB General?

MR VLOK: No, he was an AWB General.

CHAIRPERSON: So the whole point is that a person who would guarantee the assistance of the Defence Force and that was Mr Viljoen and now he left, he went to go and take part in the election in the Cape?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I assume that if he will not provide us with the weapons or with the Defence Force assistance, it would be through the AWB that we could get this and the decision rests with the command structure of the AWB what to do further if General Viljoen did not identify himself.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many soldiers would that be?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I assume and I believe it would be forty thousand men.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the AWB is without the Defence Force assistance, how many soldiers would put this Volkstaat in place?

MR VLOK: I do not know because I wasn't part of that planning.

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Vlok, the last answer you gave me, I'm not letting you get away with. You said "I received instructions from my officers". We know that you didn't get instructions from any officers - you merely had conversations with people of equal rank to you - Myburgh and Barnard - is that correct?

MR VLOK: Repeat the question please before I can answer it?

CHAIRPERSON: Your last answer to me was that you worked on instructions from "my offisiere" but you did not have instructions from any officers senior to you, you had conversations with Barnard and Myburgh who were both Captains in the Ystergarde - equal rank to you - is that correct?

MR VLOK: No Mr Chairperson, I received an instruction from Cliff Barnard to assist them.

MR BRACHER: How do you get an order from somebody of equal rank?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, he was my senior, he was there longer at his office and I, because he had the rank of a Colonel in the Kommando, I also saw him as a higher officer.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps in fairness to the witness we must accept that this wasn't a conventional army - some strange ways of communication.

MR BRACHER: The evidence was they had structures of military as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Well not the way we understand it.

MR BRACHER: I'll leave it to argument.

Mr Vlok, I want to get from you the time when you went from defence to attack and you answered Mr Kriel's question here that when you gathered at the Wildsplaas it was still for the purpose of defending the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: He went to the Wildsplaas.

MR BRACHER: No, no, at that time when "at that stage when the men were taken to the game farm, I was served to protect the leader and his family" and so on. You said that when the people were called to gather in the Western Transvaal, they gathered to defend the Volkstaat and your answer to that was you were also awaiting further instructions at that time - is that correct?

MR VLOK: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: And the first instruction you got to go on an attack was on Sunday 24th April 1994, you say you were instructed by Mr Barnard?

MR VLOK: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now, there's a huge gap here, between those two events had you heard nothing at all about the Bree Street bombing?

MR VLOK: Repeat that please?

MR BRACHER: Well let me put it more simply, had you - before you received instructions to go to Germiston, had you heard anything about the Bree Street bombing?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, when Abraham Myburgh gave me instructions to go to Koesterfontein, he said to me that they were busy with the building of the bomb, they said that they set off a bomb in Bree Street.

MR BRACHER: And did you know then that the AWB had not taken responsibility for that bomb?

MR VLOK: At that stage, no.

MR BRACHER: Put it the other way round - you hadn't heard that the AWB had taken responsibility for that bomb, publicly?

MR VLOK: No, they did not take responsibility as far as I know.

MR BRACHER: We're now on Sunday 24th April, 1994. Your war is now on the go, isn't it? You're fighting this election?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now, you were gathered in by Myburgh in Ventersdorp by the Gardehuis, is that right?

MR VLOK: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: Now, in the midst of this war of yours, I presume there was lots of Generals from the AWB in Ventersdorp?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, they were at various bases.

MR BRACHER: Were there Generals in Ventersdorp at the head office of the AWB?

MR VLOK: Yes, General Nico Prinsloo and General Andries Terreblanche. Concerning Generals?

MR BRACHER: Yes.

MR VLOK: Concerning Generals - no it was only Andries Terreblanche and Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: What officers were there, senior to you?

MR VLOK: General Nico Prinsloo was the Secretary General and above him the leader himself, Eugene Terreblanche.

MR BRACHER: They were all present in Ventersdorp on Sunday 24th April at the head office?

MR VLOK: I do not know, no Mr Chairperson, not as far as I can remember.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, who was running this war from your head office?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, there was a radio room in the Gardehuis and from there they communicated with the Kommandos and they did the work there.

MR BRACHER: Now when you were told by Myburgh to go and bomb innocent civilians did you take it upon yourself to ask any senior officer of the AWB in Ventersdorp whether this was now the policy of the AWB?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, when I received the instruction that I had to execute, I knew I'm doing it in the name of the AWB and I did not question the decision of a senior officer and officers that was conveyed to the people at grassroots level and to myself. I did not doubt it, doubt their decisions because I trusted them.

CHAIRPERSON: That is precisely the point that is made. The policy of the AWB, as I understand it, was not to put the people's lives in danger, is that not true?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, that was war.

CHAIRPERSON: We're getting there. The changes in that policy was to put people's lives in danger. What Mr Brasher is asking you is that you thought it good to ask someone in the top structure "have we changed our policy now?"

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because I did not doubt their integrity.

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

I'm now moving on to paragraph 28 of your...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brasher, you want to leave that point - I just need certain clarity on this point - the question was put to you when you took note or when you realised that you are going to plant bombs indiscriminately, did you not ask anyone if the policy changed or why it changed? Are you busy telling us that it was normal for you, you did not see it as strange?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I knew that it was war, that the elections must be stopped and that a Volkstaat must be enforced and I believed that there will or we will get a Volkstaat at any cost.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you telling us that you knew earlier on that anything could happen before you received the instruction?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, because at the Trimpark Brigadier Leon van der Merwe said that we must protect this Volkstaat at any cost.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you then decide that it includes bombs?

MR VLOK: It could have been anything, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that?

MR VLOK: Not at that stage, no Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But it appears to me as if it was no surprise to you when you heard that you have to plant bombs amongst innocent civilians. Didn't it seem strange to you?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because I knew it could entail anything.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were willing to do it out of your own?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I would not have done it out of my own, but in the name of the AWB I would have done it and in the interests of that which I believed in.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not want to know why you did it, I want to know what your attitude was. If you were the leader of the AWB at that stage, wouldn't it have been strange to you to come forward with such a policy in order to stop the elections? Is that what you're saying to us because it appears to me, while all the other applicants gave evidence that it was a change, for you it was as if nothing changed. Why would that be?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, it was a change but I expected that anything will happen, I expected that the government of the day who was in power would act against us and that we had to protect ourselves and our Volkstaat for the reason we were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Brasher.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, paragraph 28, you talk about two Bothas who went to Koesterfontein with you. As I understand it those two Bothas were not involved in building bombs or were they?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: How many other member of the AWB who were on Koesterfontein who weren't involved with building the bomb?

MR VLOK: It was Etienne le Roux ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: No, no, he was involved with building - how many people were not involved with the bomb who were on Koesterfontein. You were told to take anybody who arrived late to Koesterfontein - how many people turned up there?

MR VLOK: Koesterfontein?

MR BRACHER: Ja.

MR VLOK: The ones who came with me?

MR BRACHER: Later that day - that's Sunday 24th April. Later that day together with two Bothas "we went to Koesterfontein, other AWB members were there who were not involved in building the bomb?"

MR VLOK: None.

MR BRACHER: What happened to the Bothas then?

MR VLOK: They were accompanied to the game farm.

MR BRACHER: So the only people on Koesterfontein building bombs was Barnard, Myburgh, yourself, Le Roux and Koekemoer -and de Wet who arrived later?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson, de Wet arrived later. It was me, Etienne, Cliff, Abraham and Koekemoer.

MR BRACHER: Why do you suppose it was done in such secrecy away from the general membership of the AWB?

MR VLOK: I do not know because I did not take the decision that Koesterfontein would be the place where the bombs would be built.

MR BRACHER: You were building a bomb - did it ever occur to you why is this being done secretly away from the general membership of the AWB who have come to fight this war?

MR VLOK: Everybody was placed at different bases and I believe this was the base pointed out to them where they should do their job.

MR BRACHER: But you see, you were told to bring latecomers to Koesterfontein and as soon as they get there, they're taken away somewhere else and there's a small group of bombers left. Now did that not occur to you as strange?

MR VLOK: Repeat the question please?

MR BRACHER: Let me divide it up. Your instruction was to take the latecomers to Koesterfontein. Two of those we know were the two Bothas but the latecomers aren't kept on Koesterfontein and they're immediately taken somewhere else leaving five bombers on Koesterfontein, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: There's no general AWB gathering on Koesterfontein?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Didn't it strike you as strange that you were doing this away from the general gathering of the AWB soldiers coming to fight this war?

MR VLOK: Please repeat?

MR BRACHER: Did it strike you as strange that this was done secretly on Koesterfontein away from the general body of AWB members?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, because I accepted and I assumed that they knew what they were doing because I was not there when the decisions were taken about where this would be done.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, is it fair to summarise what you say -you didn't think about anything, you just simply took orders from anybody at all - even people of equal rank?

MR VLOK: Please repeat?

MR BRACHER: I said is it fair to summarise your evidence that you didn't think about any decisions, you simply took orders even from people of equal rank?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I received my instructions from them, I took it from them because they were placed in control of the operation and that's why I took my orders from them.

MR BRACHER: I'll leave that to argument. The last sentence of paragraph 28 "after the bomb was placed in the trailer we placed loose iron on top of this bomb for maximum effect - injury and damage". Did you know you were going to bomb innocent civilians?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I did not build it, I only assisted where it was necessary.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, take it from me that putting loose pieces of metal on top of a bomb is building a bomb.

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: When you were building the bomb for maximum damage, injury and death, did you know you were going to target innocent civilians?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, that was my instruction and I executed it.

MR BRACHER: Did you know you were going to target innocent civilians when you put the "los yster" on the bomb?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson because Barnard informed me.

MR BRACHER: That you were going to target innocent civilians in Germiston - that had already been decided, is that what you're saying?

MR VLOK: They already took the decision that Germiston would be the target and he explained it to me as such and he gave me the instruction that I would go with Jan de Wet.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he do this, after the bomb or before the bomb or whilst you were building the bomb?

MR VLOK: Whilst we were building the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask him about the use of the bomb which you were busy building?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, he only told me that would be the case and I obeyed the instructions and I did not in any sense doubt them, doubt the fact that they were in control of this operation, that they knew what they were busy doing. I do not know what the effect would have been of the bomb because I did not know bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok, I must be honest and you must correct me if I am wrong, maybe I misunderstood you earlier - I definitely got the impression that you were informed that the target would entail the loss of life. It's when you discussed where the bomb would be planted, not whilst you were making the bomb, but if I'm wrong, if I misunderstand you, please tell me but I thought you testified to that extent earlier.

MR VLOK: Please repeat it again, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Earlier, I understood your evidence to be that you found out that the target of the bomb which was already built would include or entail the loss of life.

MR VLOK: Yes, that was discussed at Koesterfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, as I understand your evidence, your earlier evidence, this was only discussed when you decided where to plant the bomb, not whilst you were making the bomb, but I concede I might be wrong. Please tell me - did you testify to that extent earlier or not?

MR VLOK: I did testify to that extent but what I meant was that whilst we were at Koesterfontein and at Ventersdorp itself and I received instructions, I knew that the bombs which were going to explode would possibly include the loss of life and when we got to Koesterfontein, Cliff gave me the instruction and told me to assist Koekemoer ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok, I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about the time you were informed.

MR VLOK: What time are you talking about, are you talking about the Trimpark?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I want to know from you - I'm talking about the time when you were informed that loss of life is a necessity.

MR VLOK: That happened at Koesterfontein, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Not later when you discussed about where you'd plant the bomb?

MR VLOK: No, the decision about where the bomb would be exploded was made beforehand. I was only instructed that it should happen in Germiston, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, you haven't quite answered my question yet. I know you knew it was going to Germiston - I want to know if you knew it was going to target innocent civilians when you were that Sunday afternoon on Koesterfontein because you can go to Germiston, you can bomb an empty police station, you bomb a government building, you can bomb an electric pylon, you can bomb a voting booth with nobody in it. So Germiston's not good enough, did you know it was targeted for innocent civilians in Germiston when you were building it on the Sunday afternoon?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, the planning was done beforehand that the bomb would go off in Germiston and I executed my instruction as I received it, I did not have a choice about where the bomb would explode.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible] choice, I'm only asking if you knew on the Sunday afternoon it was going to target innocent civilians? It's yes or no, it's not a difficult question.

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, the Sunday evening of course.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now, this is the very thing that you hated about the ANC that they targeted innocent civilians, you had the whole night to think about it, did you try and get in touch with any General or other leader of the AWB to find out about this change of plan? Change of policy?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, I did not contact any other Generals because I executed my instruction and I knew that these people were in charge of that operation because they had the ability to accomplish that.

MR BRACHER: Now I'm coming to your next act, you're now in Germiston and you're about ...[inaudible]

MR MALAN: Excuse me, Mr Brasher, I just want to pursue this just to understand his mind set at the time.

Mr Vlok you testified that part of the things that motivated you to act the way you did and to become involved was the fact that the ANC as you understood it killed innocent people, that's to say the farmers, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And you also testified and Mr Brasher put it to you, that you hated it - you absolutely hated the fact that they did that, that they killed people.

MR VLOK: No, I didn't hate it, my view was that I was there to stop the elections as we were told at previous meetings.

MR MALAN: I do not want to try and make connection between your acts - all I'm trying to find out from you and this is Mr Bracher's question - you thought that the ANC killing innocent people is acting very badly, maliciously and it shouldn't be that way - that's what I understood from you evidence or did you think they were doing the right thing by killing innocent civilians?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did you think it was a bad thing to do, that they must be stopped?

MR VLOK: Yes, they had to be stopped doing that, yes I believed that and also that we had to have our own Volkstaat.

MR MALAN: No, I don't want to talk about the politics. This is the question - you are very unhappy about the fact that the ANC kills innocent people or were you not unhappy about it?

MR VLOK: Yes, I was.

MR MALAN: So how did you motivate yourself then that it's good enough for you to kill innocent people, because you realised this was going to happen?

MR VLOK: I identified myself with all the people who were with me and I was willing to wage a war together with them in order to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat.

MR MALAN: If I can summarise it correctly, you are saying that if the ANC can kill innocent people that's bad but if we kill innocent people for our cause then it's okay?

MR VLOK: I did what I believed in.

MR MALAN: And what you believed in was that you can take innocent lives but the ANC cannot?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, I have as much right as him to take innocent lives in order to obtain my objective.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, you've just given a very important answer, you said "I identified myself with the people I was with". Now those people were a group of four people, five people, is that correct? Barnard, Myburgh, Le Roux, de Wet and yourself?

MR VLOK: Not De Wet, no. Please repeat the names?

MR BRACHER: Myburgh, Barnard, Le Roux, de Wet and yourself?

MR VLOK: Koekemoer and myself, de Wet at that stage was not there.

MR BRACHER: de Wet helped with the bombing?

MR VLOK: To place it, yes.

MR BRACHER: Now, you now - the next morning, you haven't had a conscience overnight, apparently, you're driving to Germiston, you said in your evidence "I worked with the radio". Did you have some sort of radio communication in that car?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, yes. It was a Defence Force radio.

MR BRACHER: Who were you in communication with?

MR VLOK: With the ghost vehicle, the vehicle that drove in front.

MR BRACHER: Could you get in touch with your head office or not?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: But you could talk to the other Le Roux in the other vehicle in other words?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Did he tell you on the radio about how he was going to go about choosing a target or how he would point it out to you?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: How did he point out the target to your car?

MR VLOK: He showed me by lifting up his hand and saying it's right because the radio at that stage - we could not get a frequency at that stage.

MR BRACHER: On his signal, you stopped the car and you're going to arm the bomb. If you look around you, you'll see innocent people who have nothing to do with any particular group as far as you know, is that correct.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I saw the people but I was there to execute my order and I did it.

MR BRACHER: If you looked around you, you would have seen white people - for all you knew, they were members of the AWB?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: And did you not have second thoughts at that stage?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because I believed that what I was doing was right, it was to further the interests for our Volkstaat.

MR BRACHER: When you look around you, did you see any State property?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, not that I could see, no.

MR BRACHER: No further questions, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Chairperson, may I just say that from the various families who are present, they have got various questions. I would try and put them together to this applicant, it's from the Zasi family and the Mashenini family.

Mr Vlok, the head office was in contact with the game farm by radio communication, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, they were in contact with the radio operation room.

MR PRIOR: While you were at the head office, according to your knowledge, was there any contact between head office, the leader Mr Terreblanche and for example the game farm or any of the other bases that were established?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, Mr Terreblanche had access to the radio room.

MR PRIOR: I'm not talking about just access, were you aware of instructions, direct instructions that was conveyed with that radio?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Mr Fourie was the Camp Commandant at the game farm, did you know that?

MR VLOK: Yes, I found out only later.

MR PRIOR: Before you left Ventersdorp, that is the evening or the day of the 24th, did you not know that Commandant Fourie was the camp commandant in that area, Magaliesberg?

MR VLOK: Of the game farm, no Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Did you know that there was a base at the game farm?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: How did you know this?

MR VLOK: Because they left Ventersdorp in a convoy, they said they were on their way to the game farm.

MR PRIOR: Did you leave Ventersdorp in a convoy? How many vehicles?

MR VLOK: I do not know, Mr Chairperson, they went in small groups. Some people were at Cliff's farm, Cliff Barnard's farm. Nicolas Barnard's farm was just outside of Ventersdorp, that is where the women were.

MR PRIOR: At Koesterfontein, at the building of the bomb and the assistance that you provided, did you ask any questions concerning the bomb, the building of the bomb? For example, what would happen if the bomb would detonate, will we be safe, will we have enough time to get away?

MR VLOK: No, they did tell me Mr Chairperson, that is why they explained to me how to activate it. They said to me that you've got a certain amount of seconds to get away.

MR PRIOR: At that stage you did not know anything of explosives you knew nothing?

MR VLOK: No, I didn't know.

MR PRIOR: And they gave you the instruction to activate this massive bomb?

MR VLOK: Yes, they trusted me and that was just after a few explanations that probably took a few minutes.

MR PRIOR: You were entrusted with the activation or detonation of this massive, powerful bomb after you received a few minutes of instructions?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Is there any reason why Koekemoer, he built the bomb, why didn't he go with to detonate the bomb? Weren't you scared that you could have died in this explosion?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because at that stage I was willing to give even my life for that which I believed in.

MR PRIOR: One aspect of Constand Viljoen's involvement at head office, while you were there did they ever talk about Constand Viljoen as a traitor - that he sold us out, that he's going to take part in the elections now - anything in that nature?

MR VLOK: No, not as far as I can remember.

MR PRIOR: And you were always or most of the times you were with the leader, Eugene Terreblanche, is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: And he never made any comment that he is disappointed in General Constand Viljoen?

MR VLOK: Not as far as I can remember, no.

MR PRIOR: It is so that forgiveness is not a requirement in this act of reconciliation or in your amnesty application but the families who sit here and listen to the application requested me in the following questions and the first question is - how did you feel after you found out that various people, black people as well as white people died because of this bomb that you planted there? We haven't heard how you felt about it.

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, at that stage after the incident I believed that that what I did was in the interest of the AWB and it would further the struggle to obtain a Volkstaat.

MR PRIOR: So at any other level - on a personal level, you didn't feel anything?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, for me it was difficult, the fact that innocent lives were taken, it was difficult for me but at that stage I was so desperate and I believed that that what I was doing would be to further my principles and my support of the movement.

MR PRIOR: As Mr Malan put it to you, the fact that the ANC in their campaign for freedom killed people, planted bombs etc, did you see that as justified, that it justified your actions?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because I did in what I believe in.

MR PRIOR: Do you concede now that there were better targets to convey your message, in other words, to stop the elections as it was suggested by the other legal representatives? For example the polling booths, police stations etc?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, there could have been other targets or bombed, but at that stage it was my instruction and I executed it in that manner. I knew before the elections, before 1993 and 1994 there was acts of terror or sabotage and that other targets were hit and the task that I did was explained to me and it was conveyed to me that lives will be lost in order for the election to be stopped and that would help in the whole process.

MR PRIOR: In Exhibit F, that is the newspaper article, of 8 February 1994, that is when Mr Terreblanche spoke at Lichtenberg. There was an explosion at a power station. There was also talk about nineteen similar explosions in the Western Transvaal. Do you carry any knowledge concerning this?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I did see the newspaper article.

MR PRIOR: How many of those nineteen explosions resulted in the loss of life?

MR VLOK: As far as I know, none.

MR PRIOR: They were against certain buildings etc., is that correct?

MR VLOK: Yes, it was to sabotage, Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Concerning the families of the victims and those who died who listen to your application, the question is, is there anything that you would like to tell them about your feelings? They've got the feeling that you sit there, you ask for amnesty, nothing was said about them, if you at all consider them or consider their feelings while you answer questions that are put to you?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I would like to convey my condolences to these people, that they were the targets of our goals that we wanted to reach and in which we believed in very strongly at that stage.

MR PRIOR: If I look at the charge sheet in the High Court, it seems to me as if most of the victims except two, who were white, the rest of them were all black people and the places where the bombs were planted or thrown, I'm talking about the pipe bombs, was places where usually a person would expect to find black people?

MR VLOK: I do not know, Mr Chairperson, I was not there.

MR PRIOR: But we know now and you must have heard in the last week or so that it was the case?

MR VLOK: Yes, I did hear about this.

MR PRIOR: At any stage did anybody talk about the target of violence would be the black group of people, are you saying that it is coincidence that your Germiston bomb was set off at a taxi rank?

MR VLOK: No, I was not part of the planning so I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: No questions.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair, I have one question. This is in relation to a point raised by Mr Bracher. If you look at page 98 of Volume 1, where you talk about the two Bothas. Now are you saying that you were instructed to accompany the two Bothas to Koesterfontein? I'm just now contextualising your evidence?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I received the instruction when they left Ventersdorp and went to the game farm. Leon van der Merwe gave the instructions and said that if someone arrives late, I must take them to Koesterfontein where they will be picked up and taken to the game farm.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you see, that's exactly what I want to know, you hadn't told us about the picking up before, so let me get this right. You were told to take late arrivals like the Bothas to Koesterfontein.

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now who picked them up at Koesterfontein?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, I do not know because I was in the building and they were outside.

ADV GCABASHE: Two questions - did they see the other members of the party that was at Koesterfontein? Maybe that one first.

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, because Nicolas Barnard came out and Abraham Myburgh also saw and so they must have seen them yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Did they see the bomb that was being made?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because it was inside the building, it was a closed building.

ADV GCABASHE: Was there any discussion at this point when the Bothas were there about the whole bombing spree, what was going to be happening?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Was there any discussion at all about the bomb that had gone off that morning at Bree Street - if I don't have my facts wrong?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, there was no such discussion.

ADV GCABASHE: Now give me a time, roughly at what time were you at Koesterfontein with the Bothas?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson it was after dark, I do not know exactly the time, let's say approximately eight o'clock.

ADV GCABASHE: Because you say later in the day, so you think roughly about eight o'clock that evening?

MR VLOK: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Now eight o'clock that evening, where exactly was this motor bomb being built, you know line three, Koekemoer was busy building this bomb. Where exactly was this?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, it was inside the old house, it was inside the house. There was a big room and the bomb was on a table and they were busy putting the explosives around this bottle.

ADV GCABASHE: And having done that you then went to bed?

MR VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, after the bomb went off I went to bed.

ADV GCABASHE: You testified at some point that the following morning you went back to head office, yes?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: When exactly was that?

MR VLOK: No, I cannot say but it was in the span of the morning, if I must guess it was approximately eleven o'clock.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying this was after you had returned from Germiston?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You see my impression had been earlier, much earlier that you had gone back to the office fairly early in the morning - that impression was wrong?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson, it was after the bombing.

ADV GCABASHE: When you got back to the office who did you find there?

MR VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember exactly but it was the members who worked at head office in other words the women, the women who worked there.

ADV GCABASHE: Now this is a Monday morning, the Generals hadn't turned up yet, they weren't there?

MR VLOK: No, not as far as I know.

ADV GCABASHE: So you were the most senior person in the office on Monday morning at eleven o'clock?

MR VLOK: I cannot remember.

ADV GCABASHE: Now who else would have been senior to you in the office on Monday morning?

MR VLOK: No, I do not know, I was probably the senior there.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did you discuss Germiston, what had happened at Germiston with anybody in the office?

MR VLOK: No Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Why not, weren't you feeling good about what had happened?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, it was a policy that any member or any operational area will talk to the public and it was in public. It was away from the base so in other words I could not discuss it.

ADV GCABASHE: But as I understand it, all the people in that office at that particular time were committed AWB members?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You all shared the same objectives you were all there to fight a war?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson but I cannot remember if there were any civilian people in the head office.

ADV GCABASHE: No, we're just talking about people like your AWB members who shared the same objective, who were there for roughly the same reason to wage war in the short or long term secure a Volkstaat. I'm talking about those people and my question really is, why didn't you share one of your achievements with people who, like you, wanted to know when you were successful?

MR VLOK: Just repeat that question please?

ADV GCABASHE: My question is a very simple one, you had just had a major success, yes?

MR VLOK: Yes, the operation was successful, the bomb did go off.

ADV GCABASHE: Right, you personally were involved in that success?

MR VLOK: In the operation that succeeded, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: That success was aimed at achieving a particular objective that had been set by the AWB?

MR VLOK: That is correct, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You are in an office with other AWB members, who like you, are fighting for the same objective?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson but they were who had to do duties in the office and they were not there to fight. The rest of the Commandos were already placed out in other bases.

ADV GCABASHE: So you would not share your success with other members of the AWB in those circumstances?

MR VLOK: No Mr Chairperson because I feel that the instruction - that it would be the duty of a senior officer who gave the instructions to then convey it to them.

ADV GCABASHE: Did this secrecy, you know keeping things to yourself, did this extend to other members of the Garde?

MR VLOK: Can you please repeat the question?

ADV GCABASHE: This secrecy, this keeping your success to yourself, did this extend to the other members of your community of the Ystergarde?

MR VLOK: No, I do not know Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: No, no, no - in relation to what you would share with your colleagues, people of your rank, of your standing in your military formation - in your military formation, the Ystergarde - you would not talk to them either about this success of yours?

MR VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because if it was - if I had to tell them they also would have been involved in this operation.

ADV GCABASHE: Then finally on the same aspect - whose responsibility was it to report to your senior officers on the success of the mission?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I believe it was Jan de Wet's instruction because he was on his way back to the base where they were stationed.

ADV GCABASHE: No, not what you believe, what you know?

If you don't know then you don't know, not what you believe.

MR VLOK: Please repeat the question?

ADV GCABASHE: Whose responsibility was it to inform your superior officers that you had been successful in Germiston?

You after all had the activator, you pressed those wires together?

MR VLOK: Yes,Mr Chairperson, I put the wires together against the battery's terminals but it was De Wet's task to go and report back to Nicolas Barnard and that was how the instruction was given, that he must go back and give a report to him.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: At the stage when you left for Koesterfontein, where was General Prinsloo and Brigadier van der Merwe?

MR VLOK: I do not know, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: When did General Prinsloo or rather Brigadier van der Merwe, when did he give you the instruction to accompany people to Koesterfontein?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, that was in Ventersdorp at the Trimpark.

ADV BOSMAN: Was that the previous day? The Friday already or when was this?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, that was when we got together at the Trimpark and when the Ystergarde gathered together when they were called up the first time.

ADV BOSMAN: Because you sat with two instructions when you went to Koesterfontein and one was that of Brigadier van der Merwe, that is accompany people to Koesterfontein, did he say you have to return then, is that how you understood it?

MR VLOK: Please repeat?

ADV BOSMAN: When Brigadier van der Merwe told you to accompany people to Koesterfontein, did you understand that you must go and do something at Koesterfontein or did you understand you must then return to your base?

MR VLOK: At that stage I believed I must return to Ventersdorp.

ADV BOSMAN: And when you went to Koesterfontein, you actually went there to go and help build bombs?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, as I've said before, it was the Sunday the 24th and then Abraham Myburgh and Nicolas Barnard arrived at the Garde House and they gave me the instruction to accompany them to Koesterfontein.

ADV BOSMAN: But to make bombs? Did they tell you then it's to make bombs at the Garde House?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you not know where Brigadier van der Merwe was at that stage?

MR VLOK: I was under the impression that he was at the game farm and I believed that's where he went the day they left Ventersdorp.

ADV BOSMAN: Wasn't there anyone else that you could talk about with regards to these two instructions because now you have two instructions - one is go to Koesterfontein and then you returned and the other instruction is go to Koesterfontein and build bombs.

MR VLOK: Cliff Barnard told me that Brigadier Leon van der Merwe said that I must go to Koesterfontein.

ADV BOSMAN: And when you returned where was General Prinsloo and Leon van der Merwe then, after the bomb now?

MR VLOK: I do not know Chairperson, I believe they were still at the game farm.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok, the making of a bomb, how late in the day did this happen?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I do not know what time on Sunday the 24th they started making the bomb but I know I was there just after dark and the bomb was at an advanced stage.

CHAIRPERSON: And how late in the day was the sand thrown over the bomb in the trailer?

MR VLOK: The next morning, very early?

CHAIRPERSON: The morning?

MR VLOK: Yes, the next morning, the 25th, very early.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the sun already up?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, the sun was already up.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this April month, the month of April and then de Wet arrived?

MR VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did it take you the whole night to make the bomb?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in charge of you guys?

MR VLOK: Cliff Barnard, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And he gave the orders?

MR VLOK: He gave me the order that I must go with Jan de Wet to Germiston but Koekemoer was in charge of the actual making of the bomb, he built the bomb. He gave the people instructions how to build a bomb and to place the bomb on the trailer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we understand that, but I'm not talking about in whose charge you were, who was the Commander, let me put it that way of Koesterfontein that evening?

MR VLOK: Nicolas Barnard, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Several occasions, you in your evidence said that you acted in the interests of the AWB - which interests is this?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, the interests of the AWB was at that stage to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat and if they would not give us a Volkstaat, we thought we'll enforce it because at that stage we thought, we were under the impression that the ANC government - the future ANC government would not give us an election once they come to power.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you brought about this bomb in Germiston or you accomplished the exploding of a bomb, did you try and find out from head office if the Volkstaat was handed over to you, just before you detonated the bomb?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson, I feel then we would have been stopped by our commanding structure as the messages were conveyed down from the top.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew you going to plant a bomb and you're going to detonate the bomb and people are going to be killed, is that not true?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think before we take these people's lives just for final sake let's just contact head office and just find out if maybe we did succeed in obtaining this Volkstaat?

MR VLOK: And the question is? No we did not contact them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think about it?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson because I believed that I was there to perform my task and automatically it would have come from the top if we had to stop. It was my task and I had to perform it.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell me, when you received the instruction - I'm not quite sure what was your exact instruction but as I understand your evidence at least you had to take these people to a farm.

MR VLOK: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened if you said "I don't want to"?

MR VLOK: At that stage I do not know but then I believed that there was no turning around, that's what Nicolas Barnard also told us. My purpose was there that I wanted to achieve my purpose and we also had an oath in the Garde which said that if you turn around or you turn away from them you would be shot and at that stage we were in a war situation and there was no turning back.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason - let me put it this way - is that what you were scared of, that you might be killed, you might be shot dead?

MR VLOK: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you fear that you might get shot?

In other words, the possibility that if you turned around that you might be shot - did you believe in that possibility?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking this question because several times during your evidence you make mention of the fact that you acted according to instructions and that these instructions, you were following these instructions. Now these instructions, did you obey them under force, under coercion?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, not at all, I was there because I believed in the principles of the AWB and that was why I was willing to even give my life for the cause.

CHAIRPERSON: Because Mr Kriel and Brasher asked you did you not think about the lives of the people who died and both times you answered "I acted according to my instructions" that's why I'm asking you - did you feel that act under coercion?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson, I acted in accordance with what I believed which was the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think about the lives that you were going to take?

MR VLOK: No Chairperson because at that stage I was desperate to share my Volkstaat with my people and to stop the elections so that our demands would be met.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you're saying that the policy as you understood it and you believed in this policy that each race in this country must look after itself. Did I understand you correctly?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how many races were you thinking about?

MR VLOK: Well Chairperson, at that stage I saw it as all the different nations who lived together in this country. Each one had the right to self-determination.

CHAIRPERSON: But how many races or nations were you taking into consideration then?

MR VLOK: If you say take into consideration, what do you mean?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, how many did you think about? That in this country how many of them should govern themselves in this country?

MR VLOK: At that stage I thought about the ANC government and the same way they wanted South Africa, we as Afrikaner Boerevolk wanted our own bit of ground, Chairperson, our own bit of land because we knew that the ANC would win the elections, it was quite evident from the amounts of people representing the ANC and looking at the amounts representing the Afrikaner Volk, you can't even compare it and it's impossible to win an election.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about elections, Mr Vlok, I not talking about states of nation, I'm simply asking you - if it was the policy as you understood it - the policy of the AWB that is - that each nation must look after itself, how many nations were you talking about within this country?

CHAIRPERSON: Each one that's being represented, Chairperson, Tswanas, Xhosas, Vendas, Portuguese people, each one, Greeks, the English and the Afrikaners.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder how that flag would have looked. In any case, what did you did in the furthering of this policy that each race would look after itself - or nation?

MR VLOK: Please repeat, I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you or the AWB do to further this policy, the policy which says each person must look after itself, each nation must look after itself. For example you named Tswanas or Greeks - what would you do with regard to the Greeks? How would you have helped them?

MR VLOK: No, then I misunderstood you Chairperson, I will take you back to the answer earlier. From what I understood from your question was that you were asking me who are all represented in this country and that's how I saw it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it get's to that, what I really want to know is, how many nations did you conceive who would be looking after themselves?

MR VLOK: I do not understand what you mean, what did you conceive, I cannot remember the question before that?

CHAIRPERSON: If there were so many nations in this country and each nation agrees that they want self-determination, then it wouldn't have been necessary to obtain an Afrikaner Volkstaat for the Afrikaner Boere, because then everybody would have lived in South Africa without problems, is that not true?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, I saw that we as Afrikaner volk also had the right, as all the other nations, we had the right to live in our own land. The fact of the matter is, the Afrikaner Boerevolk did not have a piece of land of it's own where he can be governed by his own people where they cannot be governed by their own Boerevolk leaders and that's why I identified to that, that's why I fought for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say it was a possibility and the Greeks and the Tswanas and everyone, they all agree - but South Africa was not divided in areas like that. Now in terms of the policy of the AWB, what did you do in order to accomplish that on behalf of the Greek people?

MR VLOK: I did not represent the Greek people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but how would the AWB accomplish this, all these small little states, surely it couldn't only be for the Afrikaner Boerevolk according to your policy? According to your policy you couldn't only have it for the Afrikaners, according to your policy each nation must have his own piece of land. How did you try and bring about the policy of the AWB with regards to all the nations?

MR VLOK: Unfortunately, I still don't understand you.

CHAIRPERSON: The Volkstaat, if I understand you correctly, the Volkstaat idea was for the Afrikaner where they would be governed by the Afrikaners.

MR VLOK: No, outside of the borders of the Volkstaat, the rest of the nations would have been able to govern themselves and they would have had their say to the government.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't understand you because earlier in your evidence you spoke about the purity of nations, do you remember that?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the purity of nations, I understand is Greeks, Tswanas, is that not true.

MR VLOK: Yes, each is a nation on it's own.

CHAIRPERSON: And it's the policy of the AWB?

MR VLOK: Each one has a culture of it's own, a religion and principles according to which they live and that's what the AWB is trying to achieve.

CHAIRPERSON: But up until 1994, up until that time, what did the AWB do in terms of the Greek states in South Africa, what did they try and do to try and accomplish that?

MR VLOK: Nothing that I know of Chairperson, nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was only about the Afrikaner Boerevolk, the Volkstaat?

MR VLOK: Yes, that would have been for the Afrikaner.

CHAIRPERSON: One last question, you testified that you wanted to speak the truth and to reconcile, is that correct? What reconciliation are you talking about, what do you understand with that?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, reconciliation means as I understand it that you come in front of this Committee and you tell them that you were fighting a struggle at that time and you come and tell this to the world and to the Committee here and that order you can take a decision whether there will be amnesty or not and to

express my sympathy and condolences to the families outside who died because of the objectives we wanted to achieve and to tell them that we are sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you want to reconcile yourself with them?

MR VLOK: Chairperson as I have said, I give my condolences and if I get amnesty I would like to go out, back to my house where I live in the Cape and I want to be able to continue with my life in peace.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand you, do you want to reconcile with the people who suffered in one or other way because of that bomb?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to open your heart towards them?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, that's why I came here and sat here and told you about the things that I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any effort to speak to them?

MR VLOK: Chairperson, I was on the run for two years and almost three months yesterday, that's why I'm sitting here so I'd like to tell the victims' parents of these things so that they also know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you actually go to them and try and talk to them and tell them how sorry you are and that you've changed?

MR VLOK: I thought that would be the chance I'll be granted now, when I'm sitting in front of you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to make such an effort after the hearing to go and talk to them yourself?

MR VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You applicants, have you discussed this amongst yourselves?

MR VLOK: No, Chairperson, because we want to finish the case first and then the families of the victims, if they approve of it and they accept our apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: How are you going to find out about this?

MR VLOK: Finding out what, please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: How are you going to find out?

MR VLOK: We'll discuss it amongst ourselves as soon as we get together again and from there we can act.

CHAIRPERSON: What would be the position if we refuse to give you amnesty, would you still try to go and reconcile yourself with these people?

MR VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

AMNESTY HEARING

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, the next applicant is the sixth applicant on Volume 6 list, Johan Wilhelm Du Plessis.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Du Plessis, you applied for amnesty and also filled in the form and that is in Volume 1 from page 101 - 117 and Section B from 214 - 223, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Du Plessis, you were with the other applicants in the High Court charged and you were found not guilty on all the charges?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And is it correct that you apply for amnesty as you set out the deeds that you did in Annexure A that would then be the pipe bombs that went out to the different places, the bomb to Germiston and the bomb to Jan Smuts?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson

MS VAN DER WALT: You did not have any knowledge about the Bree Street bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he apply for amnesty for these offences and found not guilty?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I know he can still apply for amnesty but what is the point in applying?

MS VAN DER WALT: May I answer? In the first instance this applicant was the one who gave the instruction for the pipe bomb, I can say yes, the instruction and if there's any civil charges against him, he must apply for amnesty for that.

Mr Du Plessis, the occurrences in Annexure A - you've explained them but there's one aspect I'd like to refer you to and that is paragraph 24, that is on page 112 where it is not completed. You talked about the throwing of the pipe bombs were discussed at the meeting, that you do mention there in paragraph 24?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell this Honourable Committee what was discussed?

MR DU PLESSIS: That specific meeting, we discussed that pipe bombs had to thrown. The instruction or order was given by Nico Prinsloo, other officer who was present was Brigadier Leon van der Merwe. The pertinent target area that was explained to me or given to me was the PWV area.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was that the Pretoria/Witwatersrand area?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was anything said to you regarding targets?

MR DU PLESSIS: Targets that was indicated by General Nico Prinsloo to me was called taxi ranks.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you further continue in your application how you conveyed these instructions and you do confirm that?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then furthermore, page 114, paragraph 27.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue, what happened in the meetings? You said that the throwing pipe bombs was discussed in that meeting?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of that meeting certain instructions were given?

MR DU PLESSIS: These instructions were given by me to certain people.

CHAIRPERSON: Before that, did you take part in the meeting?

The meeting, the discussion of the pipe bombs were discussed?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I was present there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take part in the discussions?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I did not take part - I was at that meeting told that I must gather or bring people together who will throw these pipe bombs. The target area is the PWV area and that the purpose of the pipe bombs would be to create a fear psychosis amongst the people in order to disrupt the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you listen when they said that the pipe bombs or that the targets must be taxi ranks.

MR DU PLESSIS: No, that instruction was given to me pertinently.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you hear when they discussed it at that meeting?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I did not hear when they discussed it, in other words I did not hear that on a general level where the decision was made that the targets must be taxi ranks.

MS VAN DER WALT: I refer you to paragraph 27 on page 114 -there you mention that on Sunday 24th April, 1994 you went to Koesterfontein. Why did you go there?

MR DU PLESSIS: General Nico Prinsloo gave me the instruction the evening before that the next morning I must go with Jan de Wet to Koesterfontein on a mission. I do not know what mission it was but I thought it could have been a bomb mission.

MS VAN DER WALT: Paragraph 29 page 115 you mentioned that at the shooting range, Barnard further gave the instructions of the Staff Generals and was given instruction that a bomb must be planted in a stolen Peugeot. Why did you say that this instruction comes from the Staff Generals?

MR DU PLESSIS: I had already, it had something to do with Barnard, with the Germiston bomb. I knew that he deals with instructions that was given to him by the Staff Generals in that Nico Prinsloo had told me that I must go with, with the Germiston bomb and the instruction for the Jan Smuts bomb I also received from Cliff Barnard.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there any Generals at the shooting range present on that day?

MR DU PLESSIS: The day before the Jan Smuts bomb exploded, there were a few Generals at the shooting range itself, at the Waterfall Shooting Range in Rustenburg. General Ackerman, General Smit from Welkom as well as Nico Prinsloo, they were present at the shooting range.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this General Ackerman, it seems that if, according to the application, there was more than one Ackerman, which one do you refer to?

MR DU PLESSIS: This is the General Ackerman, I think he was currently - I think they talk about him as the Commandant General - the highest General there is.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Du Plessis, is there anything else you would like to add to the happenings in Annexure A?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you then confirm the content?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you confirm the content of Annexure A?

MR DU PLESSIS: What annexure is that?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is the ideology of the AWB and the -I would just like to get it for you.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, are you satisfied that you take note of the content of the document, have you read it before?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson, I did not read it.

CHAIRPERSON: Because questions will be put to you regarding that document and it doesn't help to say no now that you agree with it and then later you say "I do not agree", it will not help you. So if you need some time to read it, ask for it and we will give you an opportunity.

MR DU PLESSIS: I would appreciate some time.

CHAIRPERSON: And the content of your application, Annexure A, have you read that?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: You do know what the content of it is?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And the fact that you confirm that is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there nothing you would like to change in that?

MR DU PLESSIS: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think he will need to read that document?

MS VAN DER WALT: I apologise, I did not know that he hadn't read it, that is not my applicant, I accepted it but can I ask for ten minutes?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: After conviction, one of the family members of the applicants sent a message via the court orderly to Mrs Keane to say we're sorry about your white child's death. Mrs Keane rejected that and said she would only consider it if the apology was extended or the sympathy was extended to all the families of all the deceased regardless of colour and that never came back. Do you have any knowledge of that incident?

Of that specific incident I carry no knowledge.

MS CAMBANIS: What is your attitude to the apology to whites only?

MR DU PLESSIS: I think that it is wrong, I agree that that apology must be extended to all the victims.

MS CAMBANIS: When did you decide that it should be extended to all the victims and their families?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is how I feel about it.

MS CAMBANIS: Is that how you felt during your trial?

MR DU PLESSIS: During the trial? Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Why such a long hesitation, what did you have to think about?

MR DU PLESSIS: I wanted to think if I can at a specific time decided that - because it was part of a question you put to me.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: Mr Du Plessis, do you currently live in Ficksburg?

MR DU PLESSIS: I live on the farm of my father in the Ficksburg district.

MR KRIEL: Do you farm there?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I do not farm, I work in town.

MR KRIEL: This form, the form that was completed, pages 101, 102, 103 - was that in your own handwriting?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, part of it was not completed in my own handwriting.

MR KRIEL: What part of it was not completed by yourself or in your own handwriting?

MR DU PLESSIS: Questions 9a and b, 10a and b, c, 11a and b, 12a and b, c, d, e, and that is it.

MR KRIEL: It was not completed by yourself?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct yes.

MR KRIEL: 13 - did you complete that yourself?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, it looks like it.

MR KRIEL: Tell us about the application that was pending, certain civil cases, pending on the grounds of people who were killed from some of these bombings and the amount that he's asking from you?

MR DU PLESSIS: I'm not quite sure but it's a large amount.

Approximately I think they talk about R120 000 in one case and the other one is more than R200 000.

MR KRIEL: I see that Judge Flemming - he refers to

R15 000 000's of damage - are you aware of that?

MR DU PLESSIS: The damage I am aware of but I do not know if all the people there wanted to make civil claims.

MR KRIEL: When did you decide that you have to apologise to all the victims?

MR DU PLESSIS: When I heard after the bomb, after attacks or explosions, the Germiston bomb and some of the pipe bomb attacks and I heard that people were killed.

MR KRIEL: Approximately when did you hear about the Germiston Bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: It is difficult, I cannot remember exactly when I heard about it, the bomb was the morning, if I can remember correctly, it could have been the television or the radio, I heard about the bomb itself.

MR KRIEL: So, let me put it as follows, you were a member of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: And you supported the idealogies and ideals of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: And you still followed or agreed with it?

MR DU PLESSIS: I identified myself with the Volkstaat, that the AWB wants but I did not identify myself with all their struggles and goals and objectives.

MR KRIEL: So I can still accept that you're still a member of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: At various opportunities they've approached me and asked me if I want to take part in marches etc and I refused. In the last few years I also did not pay my membership fees, I did not resign but I will say but I'm not an active member of the AWB any more.

MR KRIEL: You're not an active member but you're still a member?

MR DU PLESSIS: If you do not pay your membership fees, no.

MR KRIEL: No, I do not understand your answer.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yearly membership fees are asked and as far as I'm concerned, if I do not pay my membership fees of a specific organisation for three or four years then I'm not a member any more.

MR KRIEL: But when you joined how many years did you pay in advance?

MR DU PLESSIS: No I've never paid in advance.

MR KRIEL: But you still follow the ideals of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: Some of them, yes.

MR KRIEL: Please tell me about purity of race?

MR DU PLESSIS: It is a term that I would say was inspired by the German's in the second world war.

MR KRIEL: And do you follow purity of race, the idealogy of it?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I do not.

MR KRIEL: Was it one of the ideologies that you do not follow in the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would say that the ideology of purity of race is not an ideology of the AWB.

MR KRIEL: Then why in Annexure B, paragraph 2, you would like to further and create in a Boerevolk an awareness of their nationalism, their heritage in the interest of promoting purity of race?

MR DU PLESSIS: As far as that point is concerned I do no longer identify with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you identify with it at one point in your life?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, while I was a member of the AWB on several occasions I asked several people if there's a connection between the AWB and the Nazi's of the second world war and some of these people answered and said that there would never be any such connection. The term of purity of race I consider this to be a term which came from that period in history and I do not identify with it at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Where you aware of the fact that it was a policy of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: This is the policy of the purity of race?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, as it's written there.

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not aware of it?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So what was your purpose in becoming a member of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, the purpose, the reason why I became a member of the AWB was because I did not want that the ANC/SACP Alliance or government take over our country. I did not want them to be in control of our country and that is completely on a political basis that I became a member of the AWB. I am anti-communism.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the AWB the only party in this country that is anti-communistic?

MR DU PLESSIS: The National Party at that stage, Mr Chairperson, I considered that party to be one which would sell us out to the communists. I was scared that the same would happen here as what happened in Angola and Mozambique.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other party you know of?

MR DU PLESSIS: I also identified myself with the strives of the HNP but they were not militant enough for me, Chairperson. They did not want to become physically involved, they did not want to take up the weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: So the only reason was that because there were Communist reasons, was that your biggest problem?

MR DU PLESSIS: I still believe that there are still communist opinions, that is my opinion.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say about the PAC?

MR DU PLESSIS: The Truth and Reconciliation Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: The PAC - that they're not a communist party?

MR DU PLESSIS: I'd say that the PAC also have certain communists - they still support communist positions and people - I cannot mention names.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure?

MR DU PLESSIS: Well, some of the PAC's people was trained together with the ANC members in certain African states - I'm not quite up to scratch with regards to the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: That's why I'm asking, you were looking for a party that did not support communism and according to your own opinion, the ANC was one and that's why you wanted to fight against the ANC?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But therefore I asked the question - what with regards to the PAC?

MR DU PLESSIS: I've listened to some of the PAC people and as far as I know they are also socialistically inspired.

MR KRIEL: Thank you, Chairperson.

When you became a member of the AWB did you complete a membership form?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I completed a membership form.

MR KRIEL: And the last thing that you're confirming on that form if you look at Exhibit 7 in bundle A, if I remember correctly, or item 7 in bundle A - Exhibit A page 7. The last thing which is marked with an asterisk "I confirm herewith that I'm a White South African Citizen" is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And if you look at page 8 and I read for you second paragraph from the bottom: "To promote among Afrikaner Boers a powerful awareness of their white descendant and heritage, the blood relationship and nationalism and the importance of racial purity" Did you find it?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, I saw it as they wanted us whites, our ancestry such as Van Riebeek etc, that was what they were referring to - that we are proud of our ancestry and where we are coming from - that's how I see it.

MR KRIEL: But let's stay with this racial purity - what do you understand with regards to that?

MR DU PLESSIS: Let me put it simply to you - if you look at the German's in the second world war and their policy - they put the Jews in concentration camps and a great amount of Jews died - I did not see it - the fact that the AWB would put black people in concentration camps and that they would starve them to death. That's not how I saw it.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if Jan van Riebeek believed in racial purity.

MR KRIEL: If you want me follow it up, I will Chairperson.

Let's put it this way, sir. One of the previous applicants did testify to this - you would allow a black person in your Volkstaat if he comes to work for you, is that correct? Do you identify with that statement?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did not see it in such a way, how I see it is that we would allow black people and they'd be free to live there if they wanted to but they would not have the political vote.

CHAIRPERSON: Could they have stayed anywhere they want?

MR DU PLESSIS: As far as I'm concerned yes, they could go anywhere they want and I as a citizen of that republic, if my passport is in order, I would also be allowed to travel outside of the Volkstaat.

MR KRIEL: And a member of the AWB - could they marry a black woman?

MR DU PLESSIS: If it was his choice? Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: If it's his choice - you did not have a problem with that? That's the general policy of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: If that's their policy then it is so.

MR KRIEL: But is this the policy of the AWB, do they put it like that in these documents? Sir, you were a member, not myself.

ADV PRIOR: I think to be fair to the witness, you started off asking him his views and now you're shifting to the AWB but just as long as you can distinguish.

MR KRIEL: I apologise, Mr Chairman.

Let's clarify this, let's forget about how you see it, let's hear what was the AWB's view of this?

MR DU PLESSIS: The AWB's view, sir?

MR KRIEL: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: A member of the AWB can marry a black woman.

MR KRIEL: I do not believe that he would be held in high regard if he married a black member.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he still be a member?

MR DU PLESSIS: I believe they would not expel him immediately but I think if he did that - he would probably retire from the AWB himself. If you asked my personal opinion, about it, no Chairperson, I would not marry a black woman.

MR KRIEL: Further aspects - you did not know anything about the Bree Street bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did not know anything about the Bree Street bomb.

MR KRIEL: When's the first time you heard about the Bree Street bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: The Bree Street bomb, the first time I heard about that was on television and that was, if I remember correctly, that Sunday evening at the game farm, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And did you not discuss it?

MR DU PLESSIS: There were discussions that it was a powerful bomb - we were surprised at the amount of damage it caused. Some of us wondered who did it.

MR KRIEL: Let me just stop you there. At that stage when you heard that report, wasn't there speculation that the SACP, the South African Communist Party was behind the bomb explosion?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, I did not hear any such speculation - I thought it was the right-wing party that was responsible.

MR KRIEL: But on the news, they did not speculate about who planted the bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: I cannot remember the specific news reports, maybe I imagined that it might have been in later news reports but if I remember correctly, there was speculation that it was a right-wing organisation that was responsible for it.

MR KRIEL: But it did not become known from the talk amongst the people at the game farm?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Monday morning you went to Koesterfontein?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Monday morning I went to Koesterfontein, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: On whose request?

MR DU PLESSIS: General Nico Prinsloo told me that I must go to Koesterfontein on a mission and I went together with Jan de Wet and I left the game farm together with Jan de Wet.

MR KRIEL: When you arrived there, this is now Koesterfontein, did you see that this trailer was changed into a bomb or this trailer is a bomb, let me put it that way?

MR DU PLESSIS: At Koesterfontein I found Cliff Barnard and he told me and Jan that we are going to go on a bomb mission to Germiston.

MR KRIEL: Did Nico Prinsloo indicate to you what would be the target of that bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson, I did not know what the target was to be.

MR KRIEL: Who indicated to you what the target would be?

MR DU PLESSIS: The target I learned about when I was together with Etienne Le Roux in the car and he told me that it would be a taxi stand in Germiston.

MR KRIEL: So Etienne Le Roux knew before he arrived at Germiston that the attack would be a taxi stand then?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR KRIEL: And a taxi stand which is used mainly by black drivers and black members of the public?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR KRIEL: So it was a black target?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR KRIEL: Similar to the instruction given with regards to the firebombs - black targets?

MR DU PLESSIS: That was not pertinently put like that but the instruction was definitely taxi stands.

MR KRIEL: And in 1994 - a taxi rank would you consider a black target or not?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR KRIEL: So once again a black target?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand it in such a way?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, I saw and realised that it is indeed a black target. What I can say is the way I justified it to myself was that most of the ANC supporters were black people and that it would create fear amongst them.

MR KRIEL: So when you were driving with Le Roux, you did discuss this issue?

MR DU PLESSIS: He only said to me that a taxi rank was the target.

MR KRIEL: I asked the question to the previous applicant, he couldn't help me, but you were at the game farm and you were also at Koesterfontein, how far were they away from each other?

MR DU PLESSIS: I'd say Koesterfontein and the game farm, if I make a rough estimate, I would say about 15 to 20 kilometres away from each other.

MR KRIEL: And from Koesterfontein to Germiston?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know the exact distance but if I had to make an estimate I'd say about 100 kilometres.

MR KRIEL: And what did you talk about while you were driving this 100 kilometres?

MR DU PLESSIS: A great part of the distance we did not say anything - I was scared that we might hit a police roadblock and the other part of the distance I was trying to fix the radio because we no longer had radio communication with the other vehicle and that's that.

MR KRIEL: Were you also scared that the bomb might explode on the way?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I was scared of that as well, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And the other members of the crew, of the Koesterfontein group, did they experience similar fears and did they express them?

MR DU PLESSIS: Not that I know of Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Because I still do not know why it was necessary that four of you went together, in other words, two - I think you used the word "ghost car" or guiding vehicle - and two in the vehicle which towed the trailer?

MR DU PLESSIS: If I can give you my opinion about why I was driving with the first vehicle, I think they wanted to train me to take part, so that I can take part in other similar bomb attacks. I think that's why they gave me the instruction to join them.

MR KRIEL: If I read the statement of Judge Flemming, the word "commitment" was used - he wanted the commitment of the Natalians, he wanted the commitment of members who didn't do anything, do you think they wanted commitment from your side?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do believe that, Chairperson, yes. A physical deed would commit me to the struggle.

MR KRIEL: Would you have helped with the stealing of the 4x4's?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I was in charge of that meeting, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And why would you have stolen 4x4's?

MR DU PLESSIS: Originally, they said that we would have to drive in areas which was difficult to drive in.

MR KRIEL: When was this instruction given?

MR DU PLESSIS: Before the operation of car theft started, that was at the game farm. I'd say the Saturday evening, if that's correct, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So at that stage you needed the 4x4 vehicles to go on patrols, it was not to make bombs with them?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that's correct, that is what General Nico Prinsloo told me.

MR KRIEL: And I accept that by Saturday evening it was very clear to everyone that the Defence Force will not at all provide you with Ratels and other armoured vehicles?

MR DU PLESSIS: It was not pertinently put to us but at that stage I still hoped that the things that was planned with the Defence Force would realise.

MR KRIEL: But if it would realise, why must you steal 4x4's if the government would provide you with it or the Defence Force would provide you with it?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know why Nico Prinsloo made that decision.

MR KRIEL: You acted on instructions from Nico Prinsloo, are you going to call him as a witness in your application?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know what Nico Prinsloo's position is at the moment and the reason why he doesn't want to testify here.

MR KRIEL: Did you ask him to come and testify?

MR DU PLESSIS: I think some of the advocates have approached him.

MR KRIEL: You yourself, did you ever approach him to come and testify?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Why not?

MR DU PLESSIS: There was talk about in last week that the advocates would get him here, I did not follow it up further.

MR KRIEL: Did you receive any feedback from your legal team concerning General Nico Prinsloo?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I haven't, I haven't asked them either.

MR KRIEL: When do you think when you will be able to inform us regarding Nico Prinsloo?

MR DU PLESSIS: I will take it up with my advocates.

MR KRIEL: Orders or instructions were also given by Cliffie Barnard, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR KRIEL: Are you planning to call Barnard to testify regarding his instructions?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Nicolas Barnard withdrew his application in front of the court.

MR KRIEL: I do not think we've got confirmation about that but will you call him as a witness to give evidence on behalf of you in saying that he gave instructions to you on behalf of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Nicolas Barnard is in the same prison as Koper Myburgh - Koper Myburgh was physically here to withdraw his application. Mr Nicolas Barnard was not even willing to come here and withdraw his own application, he did it through a fax to the TRC and withdrew it in that manner.

MR KRIEL: But would you like him to testify on behalf of you?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I would be glad if he can do it?

CHAIRPERSON: To say what - how will he help you?

MR DU PLESSIS: He can help me and some of the other applicants in to come and say that he did give us some of these instructions and that would enforce our case or strengthen our case that the instructions came from the AWB top structure.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that's all from my side.

EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, you were a Commandant in the Ystergarde, is that right?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: Barnard was a Captain?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: Why did you take orders from him?

MR DU PLESSIS: At various opportunities I saw that Cliff Barnard was in the presence of General Nico Prinsloo and it seemed to me as if Mr Barnard was in charge of certain operations that were launched and because of his order in these operations I accepted his instructions.

MR BRACHER: That's the only reason because you saw him frequently in the company of Prinsloo?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes and I knew that he acted on the instructions of the Generals and staff.

MR BRACHER: Just repeat that last answer please?

MR DU PLESSIS: I knew that he acted on orders or instructions from the Generals and staff of the AWB. As I've just said I saw him in the company of General Nico Prinsloo and I made that assumption.

MR BRACHER: That's what I mean, you made an assumption because you saw him with Prinsloo frequently?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: Can you please explain to me what is the purpose of Annexure B that we adjourned for you to read?

MR DU PLESSIS: The reason for that was that I read this typed Annexure B because I haven't seen it in that form. I did - a day before the closing of the amnesty application, we did have a discussion regarding the AWB and their ideologies and objectives and as I said, I did not read that annexure in the typed form.

MR BRACHER: In what form did you see it before?

MR DU PLESSIS: With my advocate it was in an oral form.

MR BRACHER: 'n Mondelingse vorm?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, we spoke about it.

MR BRACHER: But where do all those words come from, whose words are they?

MR DU PLESSIS: The words in that annexure is not my own words.

MR BRACHER: And the first time you've ever heard those words was when you discussed them with your advocate preparing for this amnesty application?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct yes.

MR BRACHER: So it has nothing to do with your motivation at the time of these deeds because you'd never heard of those words then?

MR DU PLESSIS: Those words no, but I did have time to read through this annexure and that is at times when these deeds were committed, it was my motivation and that is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, Mr Du Plessis, where did you live?

MR DU PLESSIS: At that stage I lived in the Ficksburg District.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you part of the people who were called up to Ventersdorp?

MR DU PLESSIS: I was called by Leon van der Merwe on the phone.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go to Ventersdorp - what did you think will happen there?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, before the elections, certain promises were made. I attended various AWB meetings and then also meetings of the Volksfront. In the Volksfront, former Generals of the Defence Force and Police also served and they told us that the volk must stand together and the nation must stand together and that is why the Conservative Party and the AWB in the Volksfront or why they combined all of them together was my opinion that the Defence Force, the AWB, the Volksfront will not accept the communist takeover in the country and that there would be a coup.

CHAIRPERSON: So the reason why you went to Ventersdorp was to help in order to create a coup?

MR DU PLESSIS: The reason why I went to Ventersdorp was it was said to me before that an Afrikaner Volkstaat will be created in the Western Transvaal and I wanted to be in that Afrikaner Volkstaat. It was also said to me that some of the Defence Force members and police would walk over to our side and assist us in order to establish that Volkstaat. That is why I left the Free State to the Western Transvaal.

CHAIRPERSON: To go and found or establish or help establish a Volkstaat?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you thought there would be a Volkstaat - from home you thought that you were going to your new home?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, coming back to Annexure B, we know that racial purity is not part of your motivation, you've

already said that?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: So those words don't come from you?

MR DU PLESSIS: Purity of race, no Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: When you first saw all those words - it's about eight pages of motivation - whose words are they, did you draw them up?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson, I did not write it. Those words are from an AWB policy piece which was drawn up by the AWB's, I assume, Generals in Staff. Mr Chairperson, my advocate has got a copy of it and they call it the "First Phase Wen Kommando Officers Course" and the words appear in that Annexure B or comes from that book.

MR BRACHER: You say the words come out of this book?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes. I do not know if it is word for word.

MR BRACHER: Were you in the Wen Kommando?

MR DU PLESSIS: Before I became a member of the Ystergarde, I was there for a short period of time, yes.

MR BRACHER: And you subscribed to everything in this book?

MR DU PLESSIS: Could you please repeat the question?

MR BRACHER: I say, do you subscribe to everything in this book, is that where you get your motivation from?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, that specific book I did not read, I did read other policies of the AWB, that specific book is a course for officers in the Wen Kommando.

MR BRACHER: You first said it was the document, then you said it was a verbal form, then you said it was this, now you say it's not that. Will you please tell me where you got your motivation for your deeds at the time you bombed people? What book had you read then or what had you written down or what was your motivation for your deeds then?

MR DU PLESSIS: When the bombs were planted, the book that I read was a black book, I think the title was "The Principles of the AWB". In that book the strives for a Volkstaat is described and the leader structure of the AWB at that stage and that is where I found my motivation.

MR BRACHER: Does it say anything in that book about racial purity?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember if I ever read the words "purity of race" in that book. Many of the things that is said in that book is similar to what is said in that Boerevolk identity document that Mr Fourie submitted to the Commission.

MR BRACHER: Can we have it absolutely clear - if we get a black book called "Die Beginsels van die AWB" - that is what you subscribed to? And it was different from B - you don't subscribe to B, you subscribed to that at the time of the bombing?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would not say that everything that is pertinently said in that book that that was my personal principles.

MR BRACHER: Right, Mr Du Plessis, take as long as you want this afternoon and the whole of tomorrow if you like, tell this Committee what you subscribed to at the time of the bombing, that cause you to commit these bombings.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope you're not serious.

MR BRACHER: I am serious. Don't read anything, just tell us from your own words what you subscribed to, what - can I just read to you from your form because this is what it's supposed to be. You see it says in your application form "Mention political motive that wanted to be reached and through your motivation say why you committed these offences with a political objective and how you see this." The political objective or your deeds and the motivation for your deeds.

MR DU PLESSIS: Question 10a - we can begin and say that the political objectives that I wanted to reach through my deeds was firstly to fight the struggle against the ANC/SACP Alliance, against Communism.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that contained in one of the documents?

MR DU PLESSIS: I think it is in Annexure B, I would just like to see what specific point that is.

MR BRACHER: That's point number 1 "Fight against the ANC/SACP Alliance.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct. Point number 2 - the establishment of an Afrikaner Boere Volkstaat. Before the general elections, we realised that such a state would not be handed over to us and that is why we also then ...[intervention]

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, I had to stop you - you say "we realised" can you make this "you" specific, it helps us better because the question I think is related to your political motivation, your political objective. So in your answer it confuses us if you talk about the "we" and then the "I" - we just want to know about you personally, it will help us a lot more. Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: That's correct, I'll do it. I was therefore willing to fight for the establishment of a Volkstaat and to fight so that the ANC/SACP Alliance will be prevented from coming into power. That is in short, the political objectives that I personally had. My motivation for the deeds, if I read the question correctly, that was my connection with political objectives, my political objective was that of the AWB movement, it is then also the political party to which I belonged to at that stage and the objectives that I personally had is the same as the AWB's political objectives and that is on the basis of that that I can answer that question in the application.

MR BRACHER: What were those "doelstellings" from the AWB that you identified with?

MR DU PLESSIS: The objectives of the AWB with which I identified myself is the striving for a Volkstaat and as well as the struggle against communism.

MR BRACHER: Now did that include targeting innocent people?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, at that stage it was decided by the Generals in Staff of the AWB - you will see this I think in that little book that you've got there - they talk about Phase 3 and I think in Annexure B it's also contained that a guerilla warfare would be on the order of the day at certain times.

MR BRACHER: Where do you get that from as the policy of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: Can we just look in Annexure B?

MR BRACHER: No, but you didn't read Annexure B, you've never seen till today so forget about Annexure B, forget about that book because you didn't use that either. Who told you or where did you read that you had to ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: The ideology of guerilla warfare, I learned this to be - I learned this as a student in the South African Defence Force. For two years I was in the South African Defence Force and I followed a course there in the infantry school in Oudtshoorn and there they elaborated quite extensively with regards to guerilla warfare, that's where I learned about it.

MR BRACHER: When you joined the AWB did you intend in the course of your struggle to target innocent people?

MR DU PLESSIS: If it went as far as that, yes Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Would you have to get an instruction to do that or would you just do it on your own?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would have had to receive an instruction and I also received an instruction.

MR BRACHER: Now these two bombings of which you were responsible and the pipe bombings - let's leave the pipe bombings for a minute - start with Germiston - who gave you instructions to target innocent people?

MR DU PLESSIS: The instruction came from Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: Just tell me about that, don't go further, when did he give you that instruction?

MR DU PLESSIS: He gave me that instruction at the game farm and he told me that I must go with Jan de Wet and I must join him for a mission. At that stage I did not know what the mission entailed.

MR BRACHER: No, Mr Du Plessis, that is not an instruction to kill innocent people, that is an instruction to go on a mission. Who told you to target innocent people in those specific instructions not vague stuff. Whoever told you to do that in the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: Before the elections, the leader of the AWB, he said on several occasions that the day when the ANC takes over in this country then there would be war. That was his words. It was quite evident to all of us that the ANC would take power.

MR BRACHER: Your leader didn't say when it becomes clear they're going to take over go and kill innocent people, he never said that? Mr Du Plessis, I'm going to ask you once more then I'm going to submit to the Commission that you're not telling the truth, I'm only going to ask you once more. Who in the AWB ever gave you instructions to target innocent people? I'm not asking this question again so think carefully who gave you that instruction ever.

MR DU PLESSIS: In those specific words no, nobody gave me that instruction pertinently, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You say in the beginning of your application three times, your enemy was the ANC/SACP Alliance and Communists.

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: That was why you joined the AWB and that was why you fought the war?

MR DU PLESSIS: That as well as the establishment of the Boere Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I don't follow. The reason for the Volkstaat was to get away from communism and all those other things that you do not agree with, is that not true?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If a Boerestaat was founded then you wouldn't have minded whether there was communism around or not?

MR DU PLESSIS: But there wasn't a Boerestaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but is it untrue, if you had a Boerestaat then Communism would not have mattered?

MR DU PLESSIS: Then we would have had a place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, but the fact that the ANC would govern the rest of South Africa, would not have mattered because now you've got your Volkstaat.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did it take place or how did it happen that the motivation for you was to fight communism because if you were successful and you had a Volkstaat, it wouldn't have been necessary? That's according to your evidence, is that not so?

MR DU PLESSIS: If I can put it this way, if the coup, when I'm saying this, it was planned by certain people in this country, if that coup was successful, then there wouldn't have been an election and then it would not have been necessary to immediately obtain a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, if you really do not understand me well, then say so. Listen carefully. The two reasons why you joined the AWB are not parallel because according to your evidence the reason why you became member of the AWB was because you did not like ANC because they were together with the communists?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The second reason is because of that you wanted to help in the establishment of a Boere Volkstaat, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you succeeded in founding this Volkstaat, then it would not have mattered if the ANC won the election or not, is that not true? Then the Volkstaat would have existed and communism would also have existed?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If you were successful in your onslaught against communism and the reason for a Volkstaat would have fallen away because then wouldn't it have been communism for your purposes?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct. If communism and the ideologies within this country - if we could effectively have fought it then it wouldn't have been necessary for a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say all the communists are thrown out of the country, it no longer exists, then the reason for you, for your purposes, the reason for the existence of a Volkstaat are no longer there?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They are two different reasons, they're apart from each other, I do not understand it. It's one or the other, not both of them. Please explain it to me, how could you have fought for both of these reasons?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not understand the question very well but I will try to answer it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what do you not understand before you try to answer it?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not understand how you can say if there wasn't communism that the purpose of a Volkstaat would no longer be necessary because the communism and their part in the ANC is a fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say the AWB was successful in the prevention that the ANC and therefore communism govern the country, then your reason for a Volkstaat would fall away?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, then it wouldn't be necessary for me to go and live in a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's how I understood it. The two do not go hand in hand, that's what I do not understand. Either you've got the one or you've got the other, you couldn't have fought for both of them?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not understand. Sorry, I do not understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way. You said yourself - if the ANC did not take over the country, then you would have been satisfied?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you yourself would not have wanted to obtain a Volkstaat?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If the ANC did take over together with communism then you wanted a Volkstaat to get away from the communism?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But if there wasn't any communism around, then there also would not have been a Volkstaat?

MR DU PLESSIS: If I can answer it in a different manner, I believe that the communists in the ANC government at the moment they are busy with a lot of legislature which would take the farmers right to water. There are many communist inspired legislature which they are going to implement and which would make the life of the Afrikaner Boer or the actual farmer very difficult and that's why I'd say we'd rather want our Volkstaat rather than having to live under communism.

CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct then that your anti-communist attitude that you hold has got nothing to do with the matter -you only wanted a Volkstaat?

MR DU PLESSIS: I'd say it's definitely got to do with it.

MR BRACHER: Have you got your application in front of you, Annexure A?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BRACHER: Now look at paragraph 3 - "After I left the army, I became more and more interested in politics" can you see that? Now presumably you're not going to try and tell us that you didn't know in March that General Viljoen had pulled out of the alliance and was now entering the election?

MR DU PLESSIS: I knew that he registered himself for the election, yes I did know that. I did not think that the plans which they put there in the first place, that he forgot these plans.

MR BRACHER: But you've no reason to believe otherwise?

MR DU PLESSIS: There were certain instructions given in which it was said that we together with the Volksfront - let's call it we'll fight together for a Boerestaat and as far as I know Mr Viljoen did not withdraw from those plans.

MR BRACHER: ..[inaudible] obviously had.

MR DU PLESSIS: He did register himself for the election but as far as I know, he did not withdraw from those plans.

CHAIRPERSON: This is what's confusing me, Mr Du Plessis. We know that the AWB was opposed against the elections itself.

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And those who took part in the elections were considered to be traitors, is that not true?

MR DU PLESSIS: In a way, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's not only in a way or to a certain extent, either you're going to take part in the elections or you're not, is that not so and if you did take part in the election then you betrayed.

MR DU PLESSIS: At that stage I did not exactly see it in that way, Chairperson, I thought that maybe Viljoen had a different agenda.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get this idea from that maybe this man Viljoen was a double agent? Where did you get the idea from?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, that idea if I can just run ahead a bit here, all over the country, in almost every town, there were people of the Volksfront and the B.K.A. and they, the leaders of the Volksfront, for example Viljoen, these people were given certain instructions that let's say certain orders were given, those towns had to be taken over - the Commandos and the police stations etc. At that stage I thought it might end up in a coup and those orders were never withdrawn. All that happened was that General Viljoen registered for the elections but those orders were never withdrawn and I was never pertinently told that, that those instructions were taken back or that those plans were not going to realise.

MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, look at your words in the end of paragraph 5: "I was also at meetings where General Constand Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg told the people that there would be no negotiations but that war would be waged." Now, by the time you performed these terrible acts, that was history because he was negotiating, he was negotiating for a Volkstaat, he was appearing on public platforms as a candidate, he was on the ballot paper, he was in the press as a person who was negotiating, not fighting a war and you had no reason to believe anything different. You had no facts upon which to believe anything different.

MR DU PLESSIS: The facts, before the election now which we looked at, at that point was that these promises were made to us.

MR BRACHER: He changed his mind obviously?

MR DU PLESSIS: Before the election or before these events they never told us that the promises are no longer there.

MR BRACHER: He did - he said "I'm going into the election."

MR DU PLESSIS: I did not know about it. I knew that he registered for the election.

ADV MALAN: Again I think you misheard him Mr Bracher. He said that they weren't told in the AWB and you said "or by the AWB". "They did not tell ‘us’ they were suspended" and you said he said that he's referring to Constand Viljoen. So whoever was giving the instructions or passing information through there, there's a mismatch and your understanding of who you're referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, did you know that Constand Viljoen wanted a seat in the Cape's Parliament and that's why he was taking part in the election?

MR DU PLESSIS: I knew he registered for the elections and he registered a political party, I did not know what his agenda was - I still thought that all the other plans which were made would still continue being carried out.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, what made you think that?

MR DU PLESSIS: Neither him nor any other person of the AWB gave the instruction that those plans are being suspended.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you not think by yourself, we now withdraw - he want to go into parliament - why must everything happen through instructions? Couldn't you think for yourself?

MR DU PLESSIS: At that stage I did not think of it, no.

ADV GCABASHE: So essentially, what you are saying is if the NP had granted you a Volkstaat on the morning of the 25th April because your actions followed that, you wouldn't have known about it - you would have continued with your plans because you had been instructed to do particular things and you would therefore not have done anything about it?

MR DU PLESSIS: If the National Party in that morning did give us a Volkstaat, I believe that some of the Generals and Staff or Mr Eugene Terreblanche would convey the message that we do not continue with the instructions that were given to us.

ADV GCABASHE: This is the point - had they not communicated that to you, you would have continued with the bombing of Germiston and Jan Smuts Airport?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You weren't allowed to use your heads in the organisation to reason and say logically this is what should happen?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, we were not allowed to think in that line, together with us there were Generals in Staff - Nico Prinsloo - and he was at that stage the representative of head quarters. He had contact with head office, with Mr Terreblanche and if decisions were made regarding the suspension, then I believe that we would have received that instruction or message but we did not receive it.

ADV GCABASHE: This was a condition for joining the organisation, you should strictly follow orders, don't use your head in any particular circumstances?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would not say that it was a condition but I was trained as a soldier for two years and I think that is probably why they also used me for certain things, to do certain things because I follow instructions as a soldier and accept them as such.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, you weren't in the army you were in an organisation where you could have resigned at any minute.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is not correct - if you join the Ystergarde you had to take an oath which amongst other things "If you walk in front follow me, if I turn back, shoot me."

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the Ystergarde?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're still alive?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I'm still alive I was not shot, that is true yes.

MR BRACHER: But Mr Du Plessis, we've heard witness after witness saying they have turned their back on the AWB, it's the easiest thing in the world to do? Yes, you're still a member aren't you but all the other people who have testified here have resigned and left the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: It is true, I did not physically hand in my resignation but I'm not an active member any more.

MR BRACHER: If you don't like killing innocent people you didn't have to, you could have resigned and gone to the Eastern Transvaal instead of the Western Transvaal or back to Ficksburg?

MR DU PLESSIS: I could have done that yes.

MR BRACHER: In paragraph 11 you refer to a closed meeting, were you present at that meeting?

MR DU PLESSIS: That was the meeting that was held at Trim Park in Ventersdorp if I'm not confused.

MR BRACHER: Were you part of the closed meeting?

MR DU PLESSIS: I was present at that closed meeting yes.

MR BRACHER: No that talks about a coalition with the Afrikaner Volkfront - that had also fallen apart by the time you did the bombings because you couldn't have had General Viljoen in parliament and in a separate Volkstaat, could you?

MR DU PLESSIS: As far as I know, General Viljoen founded a political party, I do not know if he disbanded the Volksfront as such.

MR BRACHER: But the coalition was gone because he couldn't be a member of parliament in one country and a leader of another Volkstaat?

MR DU PLESSIS: Viljoen was not the only member or the only person who governed the Volksfront. There were other Generals in that Volksfront Committee.

MR BRACHER: Who were you relying on? What other Generals were you relying on?

MR DU PLESSIS: The specific names I cannot remember at this stage but I know that there were other Generals who were in the police in the past.

MR BRACHER: Look at paragraph 13, you will remember at Ventersdorp there was a meeting and Mr Terreblanche said that the Commandos must go back and find out whether the people are ready for war or not. Do you remember that?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct yes.

MR BRACHER: General Ackerman called for war and Terreblanche said "Hang on just go and find out whether people want war". Now nobody has ever testified here in this hearing that anybody came back and said the people wanted war or not?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I do not know about that but I personally did not go back and say that the people are looking for war. At that day when General Ackerman and Mr Eugene Terreblanche addressed this meeting, I was pertinently told by Leon van der Merwe that I must go back, prepare myself, get my things ready, that in two or three weeks - he did not give me a specific date - then I will be called up to come back to the Western Transvaal.

MR BRACHER: But no Mr Du Plessis, your leader is Mr Eugene Terreblanche. He says "hang on, General Ackerman has called for war but first go and find out whether people want war or not." How can you override that instruction and say that somebody else told you differently. Do you obey anybody who gives you the order that you want to hear?

MR DU PLESSIS: As far as I know, a decision was made regarding war.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever approached regarding war, fighting this war as it stands in paragraph 13?

MR DU PLESSIS: At that meeting I was not pertinently asked.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is my point, Terreblanche according to this paragraph said "wait, hold on it's good to on the one hand shout for war but go and find out if the people want a war, if they are prepared and ready for war." Were you yourself asked about this war?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, at some of the previous meetings where Mr Terreblanche made this address that there would be war, I did agree with his speeches and some of my Commanders like Brigadier van der Merwe...[intervention].

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, if someone approached you, it could have been that you might have answered yes. I would like to know, did someone ask you if you are ready and prepared? As the order was given?

MR DU PLESSIS: Pertinently at that meeting, I would not say that they asked me that but they knew it.

CHAIRPERSON: And at home did they ask you at a later stage?

MR DU PLESSIS: When I was called up Brigadier Leon van der Merwe did ask me if I was ready and if I can come up to the Western Transvaal.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, when you received the call up the decision was already made there is going to be a war. In order to make that decision, Eugene Terreblanche asked "go and find out from the people if they are ready for war" at home, at work or wherever. Were you approached?

MR DU PLESSIS: That question was not put to me as pertinently as that?

CHAIRPERSON: Or any other place - were you asked if you were ready?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, when Brigadier Leon van der Merwe called me up he asked me if I was ready.

CHAIRPERSON: So before that decision was made you were never approached to find out if you were ready for war?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I agree with that, it was not a democratic decision.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Du Plessis, concerning this question - you were now a Commandant - the people over which you had command was that in the Ficksburg area?

MR DU PLESSIS: It was yes and the Eastern Free State area.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you hear from them if they were ready for war and what their role would be in this whole call up?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, they were not prepared to leave the Eastern Free State and go to the Western Transvaal.

ADV BOSMAN: Not even a single person?

MR DU PLESSIS: There were a few people but most of the people under my command did not go with.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you report that back to your higher command?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did report it to Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR BRACHER: How many people were under you command in the Eastern Free State?

MR DU PLESSIS: If I can make a rough estimate it would be thirty.

MR BRACHER: Just move on to paragraph 22 - what does it mean to be a Commandant of Operations?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, at that stage I saw it, at the game farm that they placed me in command of the patrols and of certain operations that might take place. When I was appointed in that position I did not know exactly what those operations would entail. I thought that I would be used in liaising with the Defence Force or that it could include war deeds.

MR BRACHER: When you were appointed Commandant of Operations that was to oversee the patrols?

MR DU PLESSIS: Originally yes.

MR BRACHER: Now when you spoke on Sunday 24th April, this is paragraph 24, there was a meeting and the question of throwing of pipe bombs were discussed - the meeting where they said it should be taxi ranks?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct yes?

MR BRACHER: And when you went out to the meeting of the members - in the next paragraph - were they told to throw bombs at taxi ranks?

MR DU PLESSIS: When I left there the meeting where I addressed the other people and got them to form groups to go and throw pipe bombs, yes that is correct.

MR BRACHER: Was that an instruction given to people - throw them at taxi ranks?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that was an order that was given to them.

MR BRACHER: That's an order they had to obey?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BRACHER: Look at the next page - I think you're already there - "they had to choose their own pipe bombs, the groups were sent to different towns where they had to find their own targets." Now how does that agree with what you've just said?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I came from the Free State and I did not know where the taxi ranks were, I did not even know where most of the towns in the PWV area was and when I told the people to go and throw these pipe bombs at the taxi ranks I asked them what towns they know well and they could specify or choose to which town they want to go and some of them or most them could choose the groups in which they wanted to go.

MR BRACHER: I understand all that but look at the next bit -after you've chosen the dorp where they have to choose their own target - how does that agree with what you have said because they were told to choose taxi ranks.

MR DU PLESSIS: There could be a few taxi ranks in some of the larger towns - they could choose which one they wanted to attack.

MR BRACHER: They must choose their own taxi ranks?

MR DU PLESSIS: I could not exactly tell him to go to that taxi rank on the corner of that and that - I could not say that pertinently which target to choose.

MR BRACHER: Now if you look on the next page it says three of the pipe bomb missions were a success - now the Pretoria one wasn't at a taxi rank - why was that a success if they disobeyed an order?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know, Mr Chairperson, I do not know why they did not listen to this instruction - the bomb did explode though.

MR BRACHER: But it wasn't a success because they were told to bomb taxi ranks?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would say that it was a success because the bomb did explode.

MR BRACHER: As long as the bomb went off you didn't mind where?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is true yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did the bomb explode, Mr Du Plessis, in Pretoria?

MR DU PLESSIS: The Pretoria bomb, if I can remember correctly, I think it was a beer hall, Timbaraba's Town close to Pretoria.

MR BRACHER: Go back to paragraph 24 - you had a meeting with a General, a Brigadier, a Commandant, a Major, you yourself as a commandant, the question about the throwing of pipe bombs was discussed. Now we are now on Sunday night the 24th April 1994, there's no discussion about car bombs, not so?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: Can I just ask you something that occurs to me, in order to be acquitted in the criminal case, I presume you lied?

MR DU PLESSIS: In the criminal court, I did lie yes, that is correct.

MR BRACHER: You originally made a confession and then you withdrew it didn't you?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did not make a statement, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make a written admittance?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, not at all, I did give evidence yes.

MR BRACHER: Now - Bree Street bombing - all you knew about that bombing was what you saw on television?

MR DU PLESSIS: The Sunday evening yes.

MR BRACHER: That's the same night when you had meetings to discuss pipe bombs? None of your Generals said "well we've got bombing squads out there already with vehicle bombs, car bombs, nobody said that to you?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, nothing.

MR BRACHER: Nobody afterwards said "three cheers we've had a success with the car bomb" the state has begun?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Despite the fact you'd gathered after that as well, didn't you, after the bomb had gone off?

MR DU PLESSIS: Which bomb?

MR BRACHER: The Bree Street bomb.

MR DU PLESSIS: A meeting after the bomb?

MR BRACHER: That was in that - when you were watching TV there was a whole group of AWB people watching, 70 of them probably.

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not think everybody, but I think there was quite a few who watched the T.V.

MR BRACHER: There were many AWB people and nobody says "our bomb has succeeded" or "great guys we've got in Koesterfontein" nothing like that?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, nothing.

MR BRACHER: No General comes and announces the successful beginning of operations?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now move on to paragraph 27 because you've got seven lines about a most significant event and I want details. That first sentence says that Barnard, Le Roux, Koekemoer, built the bomb at Koesterfontein on the Sunday night. Were you there at the time?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now why do you say that in your submission then?

MR DU PLESSIS: The next day, the morning, when we went to Germiston I found that out. Myself and Jan de Wet arrived at Koesterfontein and there we found Etienne Le Roux, Koekemoer and Cliff Barnard. Cliff Barnard told me that the bomb will go to Germiston, that it is a bomb and that it's going to Germiston and that I must drive with Etienne le Roux.

MR BRACHER: When did you arrive there, with whom? Did you come with de Wet and Vlok?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I arrived there with De Wet, coming from the game farm.

MR BRACHER: When the two of you were driving there, did you know that you were going on a bombing mission?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did not know that I'm going on a bomb expedition, no.

MR BRACHER: So the first time you heard was from Barnard?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BRACHER: When you got to the farm was it already - was the bomb complete and covered in sand already or did you help?

MR DU PLESSIS: Some of the people were busy there to use spades and to throw soil on top of it. Not long afterwards they closed it up and the trailer was hooked onto Jan de Wet's vehicle, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you think that you were taken on that mission in order to lock you in so that you could do further bombings because once you've been part of one crime it's in for a penny in for a pound as they say?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now that is not consistent with AWB conduct as you've explained it today. You didn't have to be locked in, you told us that if the AWB gave you an order, you'd perform it, you didn't have to be locked in to anything. You were being locked into a splinter group weren't you?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson, it was not a splinter group.

MR BRACHER: Why did you have to get locked in then when you already have the best obeyer of orders I have ever heard?

MR DU PLESSIS: As I already said, it was not a splinter group and I identified myself with the goals those people strived for and I went along with it.

MR BRACHER: Why did you think then that they would lock you in by taking you as a passenger on the first run?

MR DU PLESSIS: The reason therefore I do not know.

MR BRACHER: Well there's only one reason because that was the way to get your commitment to that group?

MR DU PLESSIS: It might be the case, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they know that you came with De Wet?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, I do not know if they knew it.

Maybe Cliff Barnard and Nico Prinsloo had a meeting, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go with De Wet?

MR DU PLESSIS: Because Nico Prinsloo told me that I must go with De Wet, I must drive with him and go on a mission.

MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, you gave in your evidence what I thought was a terrible answer, an awful answer. You said "I heard that people died" when you were talking about the Germiston bomb. Now you helped take the bomb there, you parked it - you actually armed the bomb, didn't you?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Well you knew it was going to go off in a crowded place?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did drive through with Etienne le Roux, I saw that there were a lot of taxis so I knew about it.

MR BRACHER: Not taxis - people. Real people.

MR DU PLESSIS: If I might say, a lot of the taxis were empty.

MR BRACHER: There were people around there, you killed lots of people in a busy time.

MR DU PLESSIS: There were people, I agree.

MR BRACHER: "I heard people were dead" - you knew you were going to kill people.

MR DU PLESSIS: There was a possibility that people might not have died, Chairperson, a lot of the taxis were empty and the people who were commuted by the taxis early that morning was no longer in the taxis.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but Mr Du Plessis, your instruction was to take the lives of people.

MR DU PLESSIS: That was not - I was not told that pertinently but I assumed that people would lose their lives -that was the tactics, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: If you had looked into the shop you would have seen the Ontong's son working there. There were people working in the shops neighbouring, weren't there?

MR DU PLESSIS: I couldn't see into the shops but I assume that there must have been people working there.

MR BRACHER: You'd seen on the T.V. the night before what a bomb can do in a public place - dead and injured all over the place is that not so?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did see that, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, what worries me, you're still a member of the AWB, you want amnesty, what's to say that you're not going to do the same for the next election? Nothing has changed in your mind - you still subscribe to these aims and objects - you're still a member of the AWB, you're still a person who doesn't care about human life apparently. Why shouldn't you do it at the next election?

MR DU PLESSIS: I can only tell you that I would definitely not do it again. In those specific circumstances which reigned at that time and the instructions we were given and the promises which were made - because of that we thought we would get away with it. What happened in this specific cases we did not get away with it and the law took it's course against us and I definitely will not do it again.

MR BRACHER: You say definitely not?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, definitely not.

MR BRACHER: Under the same circumstances you would do it again. If some leader arises now between now and the next election, that you've got faith in, you would do the same again?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I will not do it again?

MR BRACHER: Why not, what has changed?

MR DU PLESSIS: If I can put it this way, in the Defence Force we were indoctrinated to follow orders and to fight against the communist, physically. I mean to fight physically against them and now after these events I realise we were only used as pawns, that we had to do the dirty work for some or other political organisation and to spread propaganda for them and we got into trouble. I definitely won't do it again.

MR BRACHER: But if you found an organisation which you had confidence in that wasn't going to drop you, you would do it again. The Communist Party is going to be in the next election isn't it?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know.

MR BRACHER: Yes, I'm telling you it is.

MR DU PLESSIS: Then I accept it as such.

MR BRACHER: Will you still treat them as an enemy?

MR DU PLESSIS: I still regard them as an enemy of the Boere people but I would not make war against them in the next election, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Who chose the target in Germiston?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know who gave the general instruction for that bomb.

MR BRACHER: Who chose that spot to blow up people?

MR DU PLESSIS: That place if I remember correctly was indicated by Etienne le Roux, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: What is his rank?

MR DU PLESSIS: At that time I think his rank was that of Lieutenant, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You were senior to him?

MR DU PLESSIS: I was his senior yes.

MR BRACHER: You could have overridden that instruction?

MR DU PLESSIS: Not on that mission.

MR BRACHER: Yes, exactly, exactly. Not in that mission because if you were doing it for the AWB you could override it, if you were in a splinter group that you had just joined, you can't override it, can you?

MR DU PLESSIS: I'd say maybe that was another grouping of the AWB.

MR BRACHER: Yes another grouping, not of the AWB?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes of the AWB.

MR BRACHER: They were all members of the AWB but the ranks had all changed, different people were giving orders to different people. It was all upside down, it had nothing to do with the AWB structure.

MR DU PLESSIS: Seniority on those missions depended not on rank so much but on what they did before. I was a novice in that milieu.

MR BRACHER: Who told you that?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, that's how I understood it.

MR BRACHER: You were not a novice, you were the Commandant of Operations. There wasn't anybody more senior than you there.

MR DU PLESSIS: From before, I never planted any bombs.

MR BRACHER: That had nothing to do with it.

MR DU PLESSIS: I think it's got a lot to do with it.

MR BRACHER: You were a senior officer, if you're on an AWB mission - you don't deny that?

MR DU PLESSIS: I agree with that yes.

MR BRACHER: Now tell me what was the purpose of the Jan Smuts bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: The reason which I was given by Nicolas Barnard with regards to the Jan Smuts bomb was that foreign tourists must be prevented from coming into the country. That was the reason I was given.

MR BRACHER: To prevent tourists from entering the country? Then why did you put it in the parking garage?

MR DU PLESSIS: It would have been difficult to drive the bomb into the airport itself.

MR BRACHER: You could park it outside the front entrance of International Arrivals?

MR DU PLESSIS: In what parking area are you now talking about?

MR BRACHER: There's a thing called a drop off area, you drop people right outside the door when they want to get on an international flight?

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't going to drop people, he was going to drop a bomb.

MR BRACHER: You know when you go to an airport, you go to the front door and the people get out of your car and walk in - your car's parked there all day every day. You could have put your bomb there.

MR DU PLESSIS: Is that not where we put the bomb?

MR BRACHER: But why not there if you wanted to attack overseas tourists? Most overseas tourists don't go and park underground.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not saying he wanted to attack overseas -he wanted to discourage tourists.

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, that specific bomb as far as I know was not aimed at killing people. That specific area - when the bomb exploded, there weren't people there, there were no people around. Inside the building there were people, yes, but the important thing here according to me is that maybe who wanted to cause damage to the building and to focus the media's attention to it and that foreign tourists would be discouraged from coming into the country.

MR BRACHER: There were people injured, weren't there?

MR DU PLESSIS: If I remember correctly, I think two people.

MR BRACHER: Eighteen.

MR DU PLESSIS: Eighteen? I don't know about that Chairperson. It might be the case.

MR BRACHER: Those were also innocent civilians, you weren't targeting any particular state personnel?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson, they were innocent people I agree.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Now you're saying that this bomb at Jan Smuts was not intended to kill people, yes?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, I have understood the evidence generally to be that the idea was to create chaos before the election and as part of that chaos, people had to be killed?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Who changed this instruction, who said people should not be killed?

MR DU PLESSIS: Me personally, placed that bomb in such a way. I had two options, I could either plant the bomb on the middle level next to a tour bus and this bus was full of people or I could have taken the left exit and I could have placed the bomb on top of that where there were no people who were standing around outside and I took the second option to go and place it above the other level. That's where I took the decision not to kill the people in the tour bus.

ADV GCABASHE: Now the question is, were you authorised to change that targeting because as I've understood it, people had to be killed. This was part of the impact of your struggle. Were you authorised in those circumstances to choose one level and not the other and if so who authorised you to do that in those circumstances?

MR DU PLESSIS: I was not specifically told by Clifton Barnard that people had to die therefore I took the decision on my own and I thought that if the bomb explodes and the building is damaged then that would create enough publicity for us, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did you discuss this with Mr le Roux?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did not.

ADV GCABASHE: Because if my memory serves me well, Mr le Roux told us that there was a specific instruction that foreigners should not be killed?

MR DU PLESSIS: I cannot remember that.

ADV GCABASHE: You know nothing at all about that?

MR DU PLESSIS: I cannot remember it. I cannot remember that I was told that, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You see this still doesn't clear up for me when you could use your own discretion and when you had to follow orders strictly, you know considering your last answer the last time I asked you about when you could use your head and when not. This is a reversal of what you said earlier. Here you used your head and put it in a non-lethal sense, not so risky area whereas with the others you didn't seem to have this discretion.

MR DU PLESSIS: At none of the other explosions did I have that discretion. The bomb missions on which I went the first time was to Germiston and there the decision was taken by someone, by Etienne le Roux and this bomb mission to Jan Smuts which the first mission I was on or which I led and therefore Le Roux indicated to me that I must follow that road and physically we did go to the building and I executed the instruction which I had to.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got many more questions?

MR BRACHER: I've got about three more.

Now this bomb at the airport had nothing to do with stopping the election?

MR DU PLESSIS: I think in a way it did have to do with the election. There were several observers from abroad who had to come through the airport but the reason I was given was to discourage foreigners from entering the country.

MR BRACHER: The election was just about begun by then?

MR DU PLESSIS: What day was the Jan Smuts bomb - was it the Wednesday?

MR BRACHER: It was the day of the election.

MR DU PLESSIS: The same day? In a sense, in a way it could have served as a way maybe stopping the elections but I don't think it would have done that.

MR BRACHER: What was the purpose in relation to your aims and motivation, what did you have to achieve for your motivations by this bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: By planting this bomb, I thought that we could gain publicity for our Volkstaat idea.

MR BRACHER: Killing and causing damage does that give you the publicity you want?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, the strife for a Volkstaat is something that's come a very long way, a long time and it always fell on deaf ears and I'd say that these bomb explosions was a desperate attempt from our side to focus attention on our political strife.

MR BRACHER: You see you're the second witness who has used the word desperate. I'm putting to you that what happened at the end here, you'd failed and you were just letting off bombs in some desperate show of force by your little splinter group as an ultimate frustration of a totally failed plan or your whole organisation had disbanded just about?

MR DU PLESSIS: In a way it's correct - we did feel that the Volksfront and the National Party and even the AWB left us in the lurch.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's ask the question in a different fashion. At that time several arrests were being made. Your war was finished and as things looked, there was no chance of stopping the election, because it was already in progress, why did you then plant a bomb at the airport?

MR DU PLESSIS: The airport bomb was the last bomb before the people were arrested at the shooting range.

CHAIRPERSON: Beforehand?

MR DU PLESSIS: That morning we left the shooting range with the car bomb and I do not know specifically when the police arrested the people at the shooting range but I thought it was before we planted the bomb. That's when they got arrested.

MR BRACHER: When the pipe bombs were sent out, you were the Commandant of Operations for that operation?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct?

MR BRACHER: That is the first time you've been a Commandant of Operations for a pipe bomb operation?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, just a few questions.

Mr Du Plessis, did you know that during January 1994 in the State Gazette it was announced that the establishment of a Volkstaat Council in order to discuss the idea of this Volkstaat at a very high level. In other words, the proposition was that there would be 20 members, that the people would be in parliament and that the people there who supported this idea in parliament would be included in this council?

MR DU PLESSIS: I was aware that there was a Volkstaat Council in order to investigate the idea of a Volkstaat and I think it was presented in parliament.

MR MALAN: That information, did that get to you or did you receive that information?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I knew that they did establish such a council.

MR MALAN: And what was the reaction of the AWB towards this suggestion in the State Gazette?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I do not know what the reaction of the AWB was but I thought that it was just another way to deter.

MR MALAN: Did you not think that it was a positive step to deal with this very difficult question so close to the elections in order to defuse the situation. Terreblanche called for a war and if the government of the day went over to this positive step in order to establish a council for those who supported the idea of a Volkstaat, was that not enough?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I do not know if the people who served on that committee did support that idea. What I know is that they were appointed to investigate it. What I thought was that the government of the day established such a council because they saw that certain rightwing groups became militant and they wanted to calm down or quiet down the rightwing.

MR MALAN: Is it correct if I put it to you as follows that Mr Eugene Terreblanche refused that concept?

MR DU PLESSIS: I cannot positively answer on that but I think that is what he would have done, yes.

MR MALAN: It is interesting that you mention that the groupings of the Germiston bomb group and the Jan Smuts bomb group was differently grouped as the other members at the game farm. That was your evidence?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, the Germiston bomb group originally came from Koesterfontein and that grouping of the members who were at the game farm, they wanted to include them in their activities as in the Jan Smuts bomb, an extra person was included who had to drive the vehicle.

ADV MALAN: The judge, on page 95 of Bundle 2, in his statement talked about the Bree Street bomb and how it was built and how it was executed and he said that the offence could have been done by the BKA of which applicants 1 - 4 were members, i.e. Myburgh, Le Roux and De Wet. Was that when you talked about a different grouping Ystergarde or AWB members? Did you not maybe indicate towards the BKA who built these bombs and planted them?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, as far as I know, those four members were not members of the BKA.

ADV MALAN: And you yourself?

MR DU PLESSIS: No I'm not a member of the BKA.

ADV MALAN: Page 85 - just for your comment - the judge in the second or third paragraph said the following: "In general, it is the interpretation that the Jan Smuts Airport Bombing stands alone and was executed by a conspiracy, an independent conspiracy. Evidence shows that later that evening at the shooting range that someone took a decision to make a last bomb seemingly out of frustration in order to illustrate something to the security police." What is your comment on that?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would not say that it was a separate grouping - the grouping was still Mr Cliff Barnard, Koekemoer still built the bomb and Cliff Barnard gave me the order to go and detonate the bomb.

ADV MALAN: As you understood it from Prinsloo, did you still understand the favour or as the Judge discussed it that in the end out of frustration to go out on a last mission. Did you do it out of frustration?

MR DU PLESSIS: Nico Prinsloo was present at the shooting range. Later that evening he left. I'm also sure that he was aware that Cliff Barnard was present there. I'm also sure that he knew that explosives were there, I think he's got the blessing.

ADV MALAN: I understand it was a broader part of the instruction that you got initially to execute these operations?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MALAN: Can you say Mr Randall, Mr Fred Randall, did you know him?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I did not know him up and to that stage - I did meet him in court, at the High Court.

ADV MALAN: During your court case did he give evidence or testify?

MR DU PLESSIS: He was at the court case yes. I cannot remember if he testified or not.

ADV MALAN: At page 13 of Bundle A, that is at the Annexure file that was submitted, words were ascribed to Mr Randall and amongst others I quote: "According to Mr Randall the AWB plans to" - I would just like to say the date, this is the 22nd April 1994, that was now before the court case. He was quoted as follows: "According to Mr Randall the AWB plan to protect people on farms within the area, their property, the offices of town councils will also be protected" and this is the part that is important: "we are not planning to act aggressively but if our people are attacked they'll have to face the force of the whole AWB and furthermore we will not disrupt the elections. What must we do to prevent them to get to the voting polls, we will not do it because we are not kaffirs." It seems to us out of this article while the AWB was busy saying that on the 22nd, especially the 22nd April before you started with your bomb attacks that the AWB will not go over to aggression, they were not planning to do it.

MR DU PLESSIS: It was definitely not true, the AWB did go over to aggression. I do not remember in what capacity Mr Randall made those utterances, I heard in this hearing that he was the spokesperson of the AWB but I do not see him as the spokesperson of the leader of the AWB or of the Generals in Staff.

MR MALAN: A last quote, there was an article in the Citizen on the 2nd April 1996 and that was just after your court case. The headline reads as follows: "AWB never gave orders for bombings - leaders of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging had never issued instructions to members to plant bombs to derail the April 1994 general election, AWB media spokesman, Mr Randall told the Rand Supreme Court in Germiston yesterday."

Did you hear that evidence?

MR DU PLESSIS: I'm not aware of it no.

MR MALAN: It seems that in mitigating ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I was found not guilty.

MR MALAN: Did you then leave?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know if I was present then, no.

MR MALAN: But you do identify or you don't identify yourself with that utterance of Mr Randall if it would be the truth?

MR DU PLESSIS: I assume that it is the truth but I do not identify or reconcile myself with that, that is not how it was conveyed to us.

MR MALAN: Thank you, I've got no further questions.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just clarify something, you said that you do identify yourself that it is the truth, what do you mean by saying that it was the truth?

MR DU PLESSIS: I assume, Mr Chairperson, that Mr Randall made those utterances at the court but I'm not saying that it is the truth that it was the AWB's viewpoint.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. In Annexure A you said to the Committee it will be that orally certain things were discussed with your advocate?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you sign your statement?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, it was a day before the Application for Amnesty had to be in, it was typed in Bloemfontein. What I can add there is that it could have been possible that I have seen that typed version, I cannot remember at this stage.

ADV BOSMAN: So you say it was a day before the closing, it would be then the 9th May, although it's not very clear on my copy on page 103, I don't know about your copy. So it was the 9th May in Bloemfontein where you signed it?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I did.

ADV BOSMAN: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We adjourn till tomorrow morning at half past nine.

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible] certainty over Mr Barnard's application be obtained. Unfortunately, all the investigators in Gauteng have gone down to Cape Town to a meeting. The prison authorities have indicated they are very loathe to get involved and take statements so we're at an impasse until I have an investigator to go and visit Mr Barnard at the jail. That is in the pipeline and we hope to have an answer tomorrow.