TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

ADV PRIOR: Today what's on the roll is the Amnesty Application of Mr Aggie Shoke - Amnesty Number 8014/97 and Harold Matshididi - Amnesty Number 8007/97. Today is the 3rd August and the Amnesty Committee sits in Johannesburg at the Institute of Social Services, Queens Road, Mayfair.

Mr Chairman, at the appropriate time, the transcribers have requested that the Members of the Committee as well as the legal representatives simply identify their voices before the proceedings start so that any transcription can be properly transcribed attributing the questions and or statements to the voice. Can that be done after I address?

Mr Chairman, before I continue there was some problem with the obtaining of more particulars regarding the events. I have supplied you with a number of documents relating to the correspondence with the former legal representative of the applicants. I do not propose to go into any detail at this stage but should the Committee deem it necessary, obviously it will place that on record. Suffice to say that any delay in the matter has not been caused by Mr Landman at all, he having come into the matter at a very late stage.

May I also place on record that only this morning was it brought to my attention that there are two other names that have been names possibly as implicated or applicants in this matter. One Mr Dumakude and one Mr Dube. They are both however represented by Mr Greg Knott of the firm Bell, Dewar and Hall of Johannesburg. Mr Knott and I have been in communication with each other and I've appraised him of the situation. Given the extent of their complicity or participation of the events of Ellis Park Bombing, he is happy to join in the proceedings tomorrow and to that end will be in attendance tomorrow with his clients, the persons I have mentioned. He will be brought up to speed with the evidence tendered this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to correct you, but I think for the sake of the record perhaps one should, is it's not the extent of their complicity but the minimal extent of their complicity as I understand it.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman yes, may I hasten to add that it's because of their restrictive roles or the limited roles that they played, Mr Knott was happy to agree to that, you know, to that procedure being adopted.

CHAIRPERSON: They are as at the present time not party to the present application, they have not been set down as applicants but in the event of their wishing to make an application tomorrow, that will be considered. I understand that Mr Landman has been also privy to the discussions and that he has no objection to this procedure being followed.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman that is correct. We don't have any objection to the procedure as suggested being followed. There's just one aspect which I wish to clarify and that is that the evidence of both the first and second applicants in this particular hearing is that at least one of the two persons named as implicated/applicants who are not here today, are severely implicated in the incident. The evidence will be that a person by the name of Dumakude in fact assembled the bomb which was placed in the vehicle and that he drove the vehicle to the place where the explosion occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: I had understood that he was only the driver. You say he assembled the bomb as well?

MR LANDMAN: That is so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps - are you going on Mr Prior or perhaps Mr Landman having done some talking could now put himself on record so that they can identify him?

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm Advocate A.P. Landman of the Johannesburg Bar, instructed by Ms Cambanis of Attorneys Nicols Cambanis to appear on behalf of the first and second applicants.

DR TSOTSI: Dr M. Tsotsi, Attorney.

ADV SANDI: I am Advocate N. Sandi from the Amnesty Committee.

ADV PRIOR: Maybe I should also identify myself. Advocate Prior, Paddy Prior from the Amnesty Committee, evidence leader in these proceedings.

Mr Chairman, may I just indicate that the requisite notices in terms of Section 19 were sent out to all the interested parties except the two indicated a short while ago. However their identities were only made known this morning and the attorney has been contacted. Apart from those two all the names of persons implicated and victims were notified in terms of Section 19. I understand there was also an advertisement placed in the local media advertising these hearings. The response to the Ellis Park bombing as a hearing - there are two victims present, Mrs Klukas and Mrs Erasmus. They lost their husbands in this bombing. They have requested myself, evidence leader, to assist them in presenting their submissions to the hearing which I have undertaken to do. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman shall we proceed?

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman if I then might call the first of the applicants. Mr Chairman we have taken the liberty of requesting that the second applicant as listed, Harold Matshididi, be called first?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman sorry, may I just make it abundantly clear, the matters under consideration at this hearing will only be the Ellis Park bombing and no other event. Thank you Mr Chairman.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed? Thank you.

Mr Matshididi, during 1988 were you a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: When did you join uMkhonto weSizwe?

MR MATSHIDIDI: In 1982.

MR LANDMAN: Now the present hearing concerns a bomb blast that occurred in the vicinity of Ellis Park Rugby Stadium on the 2nd July 1988. At that stage were you a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: During July 1988 were you a member of a cell or a unit consisting of members of uMkhonto weSizwe?

MS KHAMPEPE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Who was the commander of that unit?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude was the commander.

MR LANDMAN: And who was second in command?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dube was the second in command.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, may I just for the record purposes at this stage say that the two persons now named are the two implicated/applicants who will be I understand present tomorrow.

Were there any other members of your unit?

CHAIRPERSON: I've been looking and I haven't found it so far. Once again, perhaps for the sake of the record, I don't know if they have a list of these names otherwise could you spell them out for them?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude Mr Chairman is D-u-m-a-k-u-d-e. Dube is D-u-b-e, Dube.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you. Now apart from Dumakude and Dube and yourself were there any other members of the unit?

MR MATSHIDIDI: On that day it was only us.

MR LANDMAN: The other applicant in this matter, Aggie Shoke, do you know him?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I know him, he was also present.

MR LANDMAN: Was he a member of your unit on that occasion?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, how did it come about that you became involved in the bombing at Ellis Park Rugby Stadium. Could you describe your involvement?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I have already indicated that I was part of the unit that took part in the bombing. Dumakude in the company of Dube came to us at our unit where we stayed and they informed us that during that week we were supposed to execute a certain task. They read in the newspaper that there was going to be match at Ellis Park Stadium. Now myself and Aggie Shoke were supposed to go and reconnoitre the place and report back to them as to the structure of Ellis Park and where the car could be parked.

Myself and Aggie Shoke did exactly that. We went back to report, we went the second time and reported. On Friday of that week, the day preceeding the match, we left with the two of them for Ellis Park. We showed them how ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, if I can just ask - if I can ask you to slow down for just a while. When you and Mr Shoke were asked to check the area around Ellis Park, what precisely did you do when checking out the area around Ellis Park?

MR MATSHIDIDI: They requested us to check close to the gate where the car could be parked on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: What car - did you know?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We didn't have a car on that day but there was something that was going to be transported in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: What was to be transported?

MR MATSHIDIDI: He said the bomb will be transported by the car.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi were you told by anybody why a bomb should be planted close to a rugby stadium?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude told us that our sisters and brothers were dying in the township and he said this struggle must also be directed to the whites. That is the explanation that he gave us.

MR LANDMAN: Did he say anything about whether whites at that stage should be killed in the car bomb blast or not?

MR MATSHIDIDI: He said we should send a message to the whites that we can also do a bad thing of killing them if we want to but he didn't specifically mention that the whites must be killed, he said nobody should die.

MR LANDMAN: Could you possibly elaborate on that? How would it happen that whites would not die if a bomb was planted outside a rugby stadium?

MR MATSHIDIDI: He said he would try by all means to set the bomb so that the people while still in the stadium can hear it and they will intervene and talk to their leaders warning them against the anger of the blacks.

MR LANDMAN: Now you've said that you met again on Friday, is that correct?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Who did you meet?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was myself, Aggie, Dube and Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: After you had met where did you go to?

MR MATSHIDIDI: After we've met we went to Orlando. We went with them to Ellis Park, after Ellis Park we went to Orlando.

MR LANDMAN: What did you do at Ellis Park on the Friday?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We were going to show them what they requested us to do, the parking and the structure of the stadium.

MR LANDMAN: Did you identify any particular place where the car could be parked?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Myself and Aggie Shoke did not identify any place but while all of us were still there, there was an old house in a short street. We spent quite some time there and he came with an idea, he said where we are presently is a quiet area, there are not many cars passing, this is the right place to set a bomb.

MR LANDMAN: Is that the same street where the bomb was in fact planted the next day?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Who said that this was a quiet street?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, why would it have been important for Dumakude to find a quiet street?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was a street towards the entrance of Ellis Park. He must have realised that there were not many cars passing in that street. The cars were passing in other directions but not in the same street that we were. It was not a busy street and there were no people moving around.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say a little earlier in your evidence that you were asked to check close to the gate where the car was to be parked?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I said in front of the gate, I didn't say close to the gate.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, why did you have to look for a place near the entrance to Ellis Park?

CHAIRPERSON: It was in front of the gate they had to look.

MR LANDMAN: Why did you have to look for a place close to the gate?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That was according to his plan, I do not know the reason why.

MR LANDMAN: Were you in a position to question his plan?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We were taught not to question the orders from your commander.

MR LANDMAN: Now having been to Ellis Park on the Friday in the company of Dumakude and others, did you meet again on Saturday morning, the day of the blast?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct, we met.

MR LANDMAN: And what did you do in connection with the planning of that bomb that particular Saturday?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We were driving in a Kombi, it was myself, Aggie, Dumakude and Dube and we drove to town, we bought two big gas cylinders, we bought a battery, we bought a clock watch. We went back to Diepkloof Zone 5, that is were we put the bomb - we placed the bomb in the boot of the car.

MR LANDMAN: Who assembled the bomb, who physically assembled it in the boot of the car?

MR MATSHIDIDI: The person who assembled the bomb was Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: Did anybody assist him?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I was close to him.

MR LANDMAN: Were any members of your unit explosive experts?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude was.

MR LANDMAN: What did Aggie Shoke and Dube do at the time that Dumakude was assembling the bomb in the boot of the car?

MR MATSHIDIDI: They were behind us, keeping an eye so that nobody sees us.

MR LANDMAN: Now by what time had the bomb been assembled?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was just about after twelve to one o'clock.

MR LANDMAN: What were the arrangements in regard to the time that the bomb was to explode?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Commander Dumakude told us that the bomb would explode at five o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude. We were together.

CHAIRPERSON: You never mentioned him so far as being there?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I understand that that is the case. Dumakude is the person who assembled the bomb in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR LANDMAN: Thank you. At what point did Dumakude tell you that the bomb was to explode at five o'clock?

MR MATSHIDIDI: As he was busy attacking the wires to the clock watch he said the bomb would explode at five o'clock.

MR LANDMAN: And where were you at that time, were you still in Diepkloof or were you at the stadium?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We were still in Diepkloof.

MR LANDMAN: What was the significance of five o'clock?

MR MATSHIDIDI: According to his plan he wanted the bomb to explode before everybody dispersed from the stadium.

MR LANDMAN: And why did he choose five o'clock?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I never enquired about that.

MR LANDMAN: Now was the vehicle laden with the bomb later driven to Ellis Park?

MR MATSHIDIDI: After the bomb was placed in the boot we spend some time in Zone 5. Towards the afternoon I got into the car with him, that is myself and Dumakude, into the car that had a bomb in the boot and Aggie and Dube drove in a Kombi. We drove on M2, we took an off-ramp to Harrow Road. After crossing the train bridge we stopped and we talked to Aggie and them as to where we would meet after dropping the car at Ellis Park. They said we should - we will get them at Hillbrow. I left with Dumakude, we parked the car next to a house in the street that was identified by Dumakude. There was a bus. He parked the car behind the bus, he closed the doors and he left. We went back to Checkers. Just before we got into the Kombi at Checkers we hear a sound from the bomb and we drove off to Diepkloof.

MR LANDMAN: When Dumakude parked the car in the street were you in the car?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Sir, when he turned into that short street facing Ellis Park, I got out of the car at the corner but I could see from where I was. When he parked the car I was already out of the car.

MR LANDMAN: At what stage would Dumakude have set the timer so that the bomb would go off at a particular time? Was it at Diepkloof or would it have been after he had parked the car in that small street?

MR MATSHIDIDI: When we left Diepkloof he disconnected the wires. He connected them again after parking the car. He told me that he set the clock for five o'clock, the watch for five o'clock.

MR LANDMAN: Were you able to check whether he in fact had set the clock for five o'clock?

MR MATSHIDIDI: He was already out of the car coming towards me, I didn't have time to go back and check. After he told me about five o'clock, we left.

MR LANDMAN: Now Mr Matshididi, in the ensuing explosion two men were killed and a number of others were injured according to the police reports. Was it your intention to cause the deaths of anybody on that day?

MR MATSHIDIDI: My lord, it was not our intention to kill, it was just a mistake for those people to die.

MR LANDMAN: Was it your intention that the bomb should go off whilst people were leaving the stadium and walking back to their vehicles?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was not our intention. The intention was for the bomb to explode before people could leave the stadium.

MR LANDMAN: And how did you feel about the fact that people had been killed and others injured in the explosion?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We felt very bad, we didn't intend to kill, it was not meant to be that way.

MR LANDMAN: When you participated in the planting of the bomb at Ellis Park Stadium, were you acting in your capacity as a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Did you consider that you were carrying out the orders given to you by your commander who was also a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct. I was executing the orders given to me by my commander.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, would you have known what orders had been given to Mr Dumakude by his commander?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was difficult to know.

MR LANDMAN: Could you explain to the Committee why it would have been difficult to know?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I have explained already that as a member you do not question orders. At that given moment when instructions or orders are taken out, you just accept them. Who the orders come from you do not enquire.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Landman, can I interpose for a moment here? You say, Mr Matshididi, as a member you do not question orders. Where did you think Mr Dumakude got his orders from?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I think he got the orders from his superiors. He could not take a decision by himself.

ADV SANDI: Who did you think were his superiors?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I do not know.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, you and Mr Dumakude were both members of uMkhonto weSizwe. As members of uMkhonto weSizwe where would your commander have received his instructions from?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Commander Dumakude never told us where he got the instructions from but he knew that there were many seniors, many of his seniors within uMkhonto weSizwe.

MR LANDMAN: Have you at any stage doubted that uMkhonto weSizwe had instructed in some fashion Dumakude to carry out this attack?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I have never had that feeling Sir.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. That's the evidence at this stage.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, as we have done in other hearings after cross-examination, the two victims present have indicated that they may wish to also ask a few questions if that may be permitted? Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Matshididi, if I understand you correctly, your participation on that day on the 2nd July 1988, you were acting under orders of Mr Dumakude, is that right?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: He was your immediate superior within the unit to which you belonged?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: When you were made aware that you were to go on a bombing operation, was there any room for discussion of this operation within your unit? In other words, did you discuss the operation before you set out on the Saturday morning?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We discussed this operation, as I've indicated earlier on, by going out and checking the place in front of Ellis Park. That is the only discussion we had.

ADV PRIOR: Was it ever discussed what the effect of the bomb once exploded would be, what effect that might be?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I never asked questions of that kind.

ADV PRIOR: Let me put it this way - were you aware of the size of the bomb that was to be used on that Saturday? In other words did you know how much explosives there were, the effect, how far the effect would be or the radius of the blast, did you know anything about that or did you ask about that?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I did not ask.

ADV PRIOR: What did you mean and please if you could explain for us, when you said when Dumakude approached you about assisting with this bomb, he said that the struggle must be directed towards the white people because you brothers and sisters, presumably black people, were being killed in the townships?

MR MATSHIDIDI: By that I understood that people were dying in the township and we could not fight white people because they did not live in the township now. But that I understood the order to me we can reach the town and apply the struggle to the whites so that they can understand what we are going through.

ADV PRIOR: Well correct me if I'm mistaken, wasn't the essence of what he's told you was that because black people were dying in the townships, so too white people should be killed where they found themselves?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I did not understand the order to mean that.

ADV PRIOR: And you say special - well certain precautions were taken not to injure human life? That is when you parked the car behind the bus?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: When you parked the vehicle with the bomb behind the bus were there any persons in that vicinity that you saw, either walking past or standing nearby?

MR MATSHIDIDI: When we drove into that street there were no people. There was no one in the bus either. There were traffic cops and policemen but far away from the vicinity.

ADV PRIOR: What precautions did you take if any to preclude injury or loss of life?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We were just assured that we placed a bomb there where people were not moving around. So that is the only precaution we took because the instruction was that we should put the bomb there before people could get out of the stadium.

ADV PRIOR: According to the document put up in the bundle at page - that's the first indexed bundle, Mr Chairman, that includes the application of the applicant. At page 21 and 22 there were 31 persons who were slightly injured, there were four persons who were seriously injured and two persons who died as a result of the bomb blast. What I want to suggest to you that that would necessarily imply that those persons were sufficiently close to the bomb to sustain injuries.

MR MATSHIDIDI: I have already indicated that when we placed the bomb there were no people and there were still noises inside the stadium. Whether the people passed through the car after we have planted the bomb I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take any steps whatsoever to find out what time the rugby match stopped?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I don't know what time the match was going to stop, he only said the bomb will explode at five o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: And after the match had stopped everybody would be streaming out of the stadium, wouldn't they?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Yes at the end of each match people get out of the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: I repeat my question. Did you yourself take any steps to find out what time the match ended?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I personally did not take any step whatsoever.

ADV PRIOR: According to a statement made by the investigating officer at the time, a certain Mr Britz, Mr Chairman that appears at page 23 and 24 of the bundle, that is the index bundle, the first bundle. He indicates at paragraph 7 of his statement that the referee blew his final whistle at 17.01, that was one minute past five and the bomb exploded it is by estimation at about 17.10. Are you able to comment on that?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I don't have evidence to that effect.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Matshididi in the nature of setting off a bomb of what would appear to be enormous proportions, a very powerful bomb in a built up area, next to a sports stadium, at the time when the match would have been close either to finishing or almost finished, surely you would have realised that some people may have been killed or injured?

MR MATSHIDIDI: The reason that I am applying amnesty for is that people were lost, people died unintentionally. I mentioned that when we planted the bomb the people were still inside the stadium making noise. When we planted the bomb there were no movements at all.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Matshididi, were you - this unit of yours was it a special unit within the M.K. structure?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And what was the unit's speciality?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Special operations were it's speciality.

ADV PRIOR: Just give us an example of special operations?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Operations such as going to Government buildings, Police Stations and such buildings.

ADV PRIOR: And blowing them up or planting explosive devices in those buildings?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It depended on the building.

ADV PRIOR: Now do you agree ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do at the buildings if you didn't blow them up? Was your special unit just to go stand and admire the building? What did you do?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was not only buildings. Policemen on the streets - that is why I am saying it was not bombs and bombs every time.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked what your special unit did and you said your special operations were such as going to Government buildings, Police Stations and such buildings. You gave that as an example of your special operations. I want to know what you did at those buildings.

MR MATSHIDIDI: We would go with weapons that are supposed to be used at such buildings, sometimes carrying AK47'S.

CHAIRPERSON: You attacked the people in the buildings?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Matshididi, would you agree with my suggestion to you that targeting the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium as it then was that that was a departure from the operations that your unit was tasked to carry out or usually carried out at that time? In other words it was a departure from attacking Government buildings or buildings associated with the Government of the day?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Our cell had been involved in other operations as well, operations prior to this one, fighting the policemen for an example.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you understood Mr Prior's question as I understood it. What he was suggesting was this was a deviation from attacking what is sometimes called hard targets and this was an attack on a soft target.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR MATSHIDIDI: I have mentioned that we did not deviate as such. We were sending a signal to the white people that we've had enough, talk to your leaders, tell that we are people as well, human beings, we want to live. We went there to send a signal, not that it was a soft target.

ADV PRIOR: But as a military person or military trained person surely that distinction comes to mind that if you go to plant a bomb in a built up area where there are civilians either to be present there or gathering in that area, that is different from a military type target, hence the distinction -soft and hard target.

MR MATSHIDIDI: I don't quite understand your question.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Matshididi, I don't want to belabour the point, but let me put to you the historical development of the M.K. bombing campaign as we know it or understand it. Sorry I don't have all the dates but we know that there were several bomb attacks or car bombs on for example places like the Witwatersrand Commando Building. There was an attack, a bomb blast at the Irish Regiment in Johannesburg. There was bomb blast in Church Street which was directed at the S.A.D.F. Headquarters. We know that there was an attack on the Magistrates Court in Johannesburg where policemen were in attendance and they were the people that were killed. I'm suggesting to you that those targets, if we talk about them in military terms because of their association with the military or the police, were called hard targets. Yet the Ellis Park matter, there seems to be a deviation from that strategy and a bomb is placed in such a position near Ellis Park Rugby Stadium and it seems to be directed at civilian people. My question is - did you not appreciate that as a departure from the strategy of your unit, that is your special operations, that now you were moving away from hard targets and now you were targeting civilians, soft targets. Do you understand the questions now?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I now understand your question but this will be my response. Advocate Prior, I am saying to you if we deviated from hard target to soft target we would have driven the car very close to the stadium. We would have parked it until half past or even twenty past five. If you were putting your question that way, if you were saying our intention was to kill civilians I would agree with you but seeing that we parked it far, I do not agree with you.

ADV PRIOR: Well isn't the reason for that is that there was a stronger police or city police or presence at the gate or around the gates of the stadium and you couldn't get close without being detected although that possibility certainly existed?

MR MATSHIDIDI: If we wanted to park the car anywhere we would have done that. When we arrived the police were not even at the gate, they were down there far from the gate. If we wanted we would have parked it close to the gate.

ADV PRIOR: So your final reply to my question is that in your mind there was no distinction with the Ellis Park bomb as in the - as regards the other operations that your unit carried out. In other words in your mind there was no distinction between hard and soft targets?

MR MATSHIDIDI: The distinction between soft and hard target that you are referring to, let me tell you. When we target a hard target we put a bomb very close. In this case the bomb was planted far from the civilians, the stadium was far from the bomb.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior. In terms of distance how far was the - I know you would be estimating - how far would you say the car was from where the people were?

ADV PRIOR: I think I can assist. If the Committee would turn to page 53 of the bundle there is a road map. In the middle of the page on the right hand side there is a circle and you'll see the words "upper" and then "Meyer" further up on the page. That is where the blast - that is where the car was parked in Upper Meyer Street. It was almost with the intersection of Byte Street and then the Ellis Park Stadium you will see in bold letters a little distance up.

CHAIRPERSON: So this one was literally right outside what appears to be the Ellis Park tennis ground?

ADV PRIOR: And as the applicant says a distance from the main gate at the rugby stadium which was certainly not near the gate.

Thank you Mr Chairman. Chairman has indicated on the - have you seen this sketched plan? Sorry I beg your pardon.

DR TSOTSI: Matshididi, can you hear me?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Yes I can hear you.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

DR TSOTSI: If this bomb was not intended to kill people what effect actually was it intended to have on the people at the stadium?

MR MATSHIDIDI: The sound that was going to be produced by the bomb would be heard by the people and this would be a message directed for them.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

DR TSOTSI: Why was it specially placed near a - why did you specially choose the stadium?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude explained that there was going to be a match and many white people are going to be there and when we placed that in the vicinity of the stadium, white people would get the message clear.

DR TSOTSI: Was the stadium attended by white people only?

MR MATSHIDIDI: According to our history we knew white people to be the ones attending rugby.

DR TSOTSI: So you did not anticipate that there might be black people as well in the stadium?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We never anticipated that.

DR TSTOTSI: Was the stadium fenced in, do you know?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Could any people within the stadium have been injured or killed by the blast of the bomb?

MR MATSHIDIDI: The car was parked quite a distance from the stadium. It was impossible for the blast to effect people.

DR TSOTSI: So you are saying the manner of the people who were killed or injured, sustained injuries or killed inside the stadium itself, is that correct? Perhaps I should get assistance here from Advocate Prior?

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence available is that all the people who were injured had left the stadium and were in the streets. I think that is common cause, isn't it?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, we haven't considered that carefully but it would appear to be the case from the affidavits and statements at least, yes.

DR TSOTSI: Are you yourself trained in the use of bombs?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I don't have.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

DR TSOTSI: Must I hold it on? Did - was Dumakude the only one among you who had knowledge of use of bombs?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct, my lord.

DR TSOTSI: You yourselves didn't have any say, you yourself did not have anything to say, you just carried out his instructions in a sort of blind fashion?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct. We were only executing the orders.

DR TSOTSI: Did you at any time anticipate that the bomb might go off while you and Dumakude were still handling it or before you left the precincts of the stadium?

MR MATSHIDIDI: When you agree to become a member of the M.K. you are saying yes to death as well as life. When death has arrived it has arrived.

DR TSOTSI: If you can avoid death even if you're in the M.K. you avoid it? For instance you got out of the car with the bomb before it got to the place where it was set. Why was that? You've told the court that you got out of the car that was carrying the bomb before it got to the place where it was set. Why did you do that?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was part of our plan.

DR TSOTSI: What was the purpose of the plan?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We didn't want to be seen getting out of the car simultaneously.

DR TSOTSI: Were there people around there to see you?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I have explained that there were policemen and traffic cops but standing a little bit far.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. But Mr Matshididi, do you accept that the role that you played in the assistance you gave to Mr Dumakude, it seems to be very little, you just seem to have accompanied him on this operation. You don't seem to have any input yourself apart from the reconnaissance on the Friday. But do you accept that your conduct in so far as you associated yourself with Dumakude's actions of constructing and planting a bomb as it was planted at Ellis Park that that led eventually to the deaths of the two persons, Mr Klukas and Marais and to the injury to the other 31 persons who were in fact injured?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I accept that it was unintentionally done. It is a set thing that happened, it was not my intention.

ADV PRIOR: Are you saying that all you expected to happen was the bomb to have exploded, there would be loud noise that would then send a message to the white people attending that particular sporting function. Is that what you intended?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That was my vision Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it he is saying that the killing was accidental, there was no intent and in so far as it is anything it might be culpable homicide.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Matshididi is there anything you would like to say to the victims present today?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Yes I want to say something. I want to say to those who lost their loved ones, it was not my intention or the group that I was with on that day, but I know it would be difficult for them to forgive us but we are really sorry for the loss of life that occurred on that day. We really are sorry.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there's one final matter on my side. I need to ask this question. Does the name Hein Groskopf mean anything to you or the M.K. name Acquina - Acquilla, sorry.

MR MATSHIDIDI: I've heard of the name Groskopf but I've never seen him.

ADV PRIOR: In this particular operation I need to know are you able to assist this Committee, did this person as far as you are concerned, to your knowledge, have anything to do with the Ellis Park bomb?

MR MATSHIDIDI: No Sir, not at all.

ADV PRIOR: And finally, are you aware of who within the structure of M.K. gave Mr Dumakude his instructions?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I do not bear that knowledge Sir.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman it may be appropriate at this time to ask the victims whether there are any questions from their side? I believe Mrs Klukas has a few questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MRS KLUKAS: You killed my husband, an innocent man, who went to watch a rugby match. He never returned home. He did nobody any harm. He wasn't involved in any political party at all. We've got two children. Why? Okay you say it was the whites but he had nothing against anybody.

MR MATSHIDIDI: Mrs Klukas, this was not intentionally done, it was not my intention to kill your husband. I know how sad it is to lose your loved one, just like you, but I am saying this again - it was not our intention.

MRS KLUKAS: To plant a bomb that did that damage you must have known that somebody would be killed?

MR MATSHIDIDI: The death was accidental it was not intentional, we did not plant the bomb with the intention of killing people. I have said already that if it was our intention to kill people, we would have planted the bomb inside the stadium but we placed it far away from the stadium.

MRS KLUKAS: People had to walk past that car.

MR MATSHIDIDI: At the time of planting the bomb there was no one close to the car.

CHAIRPERSON: That was not the time that the clock was set for, was it?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I would not answer that question because I don't know what time those people passed close to the car whether it was before or after, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: You know very well the bomb was not timed to go off when you left the car because it would have blown you up, don't you? You know that the time that you left the bomb there it was not timed to go off at that time?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct, it was set for the time it was supposed to go off.

MRS KLUKAS: You've shattered our lives, we can never go on with our lives again. Losing a father, a husband, who would never have harmed anybody.

MR MATSHIDIDI: Mrs Klukas, it is sad that it happened.

MRS KLUKAS: Do you think it was worth it now? Did it gain anything?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Many things happened in those years and many of us are still saying they were not necessary.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mrs Erasmus who was the widow of Mr Marais, that's the other victim, has declined thank you. That concludes my questioning and the victims' questioning of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Landman?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, may I ask for a short adjournment? My instructing attorney wishes to give me certain instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: I remember this morning telling you that in the light of the short time you had to prepare that if you ask for adjournments it would be granted. Very well.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: (s.u.o.)

MR LANDMAN: I don't have any re-examination but Mr Prior I understand has one or two questions.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman I apologise. It was brought to my attention when the Committee adjourned to just put to Mr Matshididi, the applicant, the aerial photograph that appears at page 35 of the bundle. Unfortunately we were only able to get a photocopy of the photograph. Point A according to the key in respect of the photographs, that's at page 33, indicates the crater in Upper Meyer Street and at the top of the photograph to the right hand side one clearly sees the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium. That photograph is being shown to Mr Matshididi and a pink line was drawn - obviously the Committee hasn't seen it, if I may just show you Mr Chairman? And along that perimeter I'm instructed by the people who were at the scene of that evening looking for Mr Klukas and I don't really want to make an issue of it at this state, if it's material enough it will be clarified but along that pink line apparently was the perimeter and somewhere along that line was the entrance gate. Would you please show Mr Chairman the entrance to the stadium, in other words persons passed through a ticket gate as it were somewhere along that line and then they proceeded on foot further into the premises to the stadium and what I've been asked to put to Mr Matshididi is that if Point A is the craters where the bomb exploded, then from that aerial photograph one sees that the distance is not very great to the perimeter of the stadium. In other words it's not a great distance it's a fairly close distance. May I just indicate that the original photographs I understand are with the Attorney General, Mr D'Oliveira, and obviously we are presently making efforts to get the originals to the hearing. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Although in that regard I'm quite sure if contact is made directly with Mr D'Oliveira arrangements could be made, if you could request they be made available on the basis that some member of his department can bring them here, make them available and take them back so there is no danger of them becoming lost in transit, in post or anything else.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. May Mr Matshididi just comment on that photograph? What's being suggested, Mr Matshididi, is that to the contrary the car was parked in fact close to where people enter the premises of the stadium, in other words they present or buy their tickets or present their tickets at that point. In other words a close distance from where the car was parked.

MR MATSHIDIDI: (s.u.o.) I still say and maintain that the car was far from the gate. Where the car was parked is quite a distance from the gate, there was a street and you have to go a distance across the street, get to the pavement and get into the gate. It was quite a distance.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you. Mr Chairman may I just place on record that contact has been made, the original colour photographs will be present tomorrow morning. Thank you Sir.

MR LANDMAN: No re-examination.

ADV SANDI: Mr Matshididi, do you have any knowledge who was the owner of the vehicle? Do you know where it came from?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It belonged to a certain boy called Boykie who resided in Orlando.

ADV SANDI: How was this vehicle obtained from him?

MR MATSHIDIDI: We bought the car - we took the car from him, he told us that it was a stolen car.

ADV SANDI: Did you personally take part in obtaining this vehicle from Boykie?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was myself and Aggie.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I assist - the owner of that vehicle, it was a BMW vehicle, it was a Mr Hans Dieter Beaumay. There is a statement but it wasn't put up in the bundle and he was notified of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It was a stolen vehicle?

ADV PRIOR: It was a stolen vehicle, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I have a few questions I would like to ask you. Firstly, it is clear I think from your evidence that your commanders had read about the rugby match in the newspaper some days before?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct, my lord.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would have ample opportunity to ascertain the starting time?

MR MATSHIDIDI: I do not know, I did not discuss that issue with them.

CHAIRPERSON: The next point is as I understand it I think, I just wanted to clarify something, you and Aggie went on a reconnaissance by yourself to Ellis Park first?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was only after that you took Dumakude, you took him on the Friday afternoon?

MR MATSHIDIDI: It was Dumakude and Dube.

CHAIRPERSON: On the Friday afternoon?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And finally you've told us how you went shopping on the Saturday morning. You bought two large gas cylinders as I understand it, a battery and a clock?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you take this back with you?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To Diepkloof?

MR MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was done there?

MR MATSHIDIDI: The bomb was assembled at Zone 5, Diepkloof.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you use the gas cylinders to make the bomb?

MR MATSHIDIDI: The gas cylinders were used.

CHAIRPERSON: Were explosives put into them?

MR MATSHIDIDI: They were put, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did the explosives come from?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude brought them with.

CHAIRPERSON: Two of them, two large gas cylinders primed with explosives?

MR MATSHIDIDI: No, all of us - we were together when the cylinders were bought.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry, but when you came back to Diepkloof when you filled these two large gas cylinders with explosives?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Yes Dumakude produced those explosives.

CHAIRPERSON: And you must have realised that when the explosives went off when they were ignited the cylinders would burst into shrapnel or burst into pieces?

MR MATSHIDIDI: You are correct but it was my first time to see a bomb of that kind on that day. I didn't know the radius that it would take when it explodes.

CHAIRPERSON: No but you realised that it would explode and shatter, pieces of metal all round it?

MR MATSHIDIDI: Yes I had that idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, might I then call the person who is the first applicant, Aggie Shoke?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry there's one other question I meant to ask the previous applicant but you can perhaps apply the answer. How old is he?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, he was born in 1947 so that would make him 50.

AGGIE SHOKE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: To place it on record before your counsel starts, when were you born?

MR SHOKE: I was born in 1954.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke, is it correct that in 1988 you were a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: When did you become of member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

MR SHOKE: In 1982.

MR LANDMAN: Who were members of your unit in 1988?

MR SHOKE: It was myself, Harold, Dumakude and Dube - Captain Dube.

MR LANDMAN: You refer to him as Captain Dube, is he presently a Captain in the Defence Force?

MR SHOKE: Yes he is a Captain.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you. Who was the commander of the unit?

MR SHOKE: It was Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: And who was second in command?

MR SHOKE: It was Captain Dube.

MR LANDMAN: Was Mr Matshididi and yourself as it were the lower ranks in the unit? Foot soldiers as it were?

MR SHOKE: He was low when it comes to ranks.

MR LANDMAN: And yourself as well?

MR SHOKE: Myself as well.

MR LANDMAN: Now Mr Shoke is it correct that you were requested to participate in an operation involving the planting of a bomb at Ellis Park Rugby Stadium?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: How did you become involved?

MR SHOKE: Dumakude came to us, he told us that there was a certain mission to fulfil at Ellis Park. He said that the mission should be carried out on Saturday when a rugby match would be in place. He requested myself and Harold to go and check up the place which we did. ...[indistinct] twice and on Friday the day before the match all of us went to the place to see where the bomb could be planted.

MR LANDMAN: When you say all of us, who was present on the Friday?

MR SHOKE: It was myself, Dube, Dumakude and Harold.

MR LANDMAN: What was the purpose of going to Ellis Park on the Friday?

MR SHOKE: It was for them to see the place as well, how it was structured.

MR LANDMAN: Did Dumakude say anything about the area around Ellis Park on the Friday?

MR SHOKE: He said the next day we were supposed to bring a bomb that was to be planted at Ellis Park.

MR LANDMAN: Were you ever told why a bomb should be planted at Ellis Park?

MR SHOKE: Yes. It was to send the message to the whites that the struggle was now heading towards them.

MR LANDMAN: At that particular stage had you received any directions from uMkhonto weSizwe leadership as to whether you were allowed to attack civilian targets?

MR SHOKE: No.

MR LANDMAN: What happened on Saturday morning, the morning of the rugby match?

MR SHOKE: It was myself, Dumakude, Harold and Dube. We went to buy the two cylinders, battery and a clock watch and that car, the BMW.

MR LANDMAN: Who paid for the equipment?

MR SHOKE: It was Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: Did he pay for the car as well?

MR SHOKE: Yes he paid for the car as well.

MR LANDMAN: And where did you go to after you had collected the car as well as the equipment?

MR SHOKE: We went to Diepkloof, Zone 5.

MR LANDMAN: And what happened there?

MR SHOKE: They assembled the bomb in Zone 5 so that they can transport it to Ellis Park.

MR LANDMAN: What did you do whilst the bomb was being assembled?

MR SHOKE: I was standing a little bit far from the car keeping watch.

MR LANDMAN: Were you aware at that stage that a car bomb was being built?

MR SHOKE: I knew.

MR LANDMAN: Did you know what the intended target was?

MR SHOKE: It was to drive the car to Ellis Park.

MR LANDMAN: What sort of damage was to be caused by this car bomb according to the plan?

MR SHOKE: The bomb was meant to take the message to the white people.

MR LANDMAN: Was it intended that people should be killed?

MR SHOKE: No it was not our intention to kill people.

MR LANDMAN: Was it your intention to injure people that day?

MR SHOKE: It was not our intention either.

MR LANDMAN: Did you know what time the car bomb was to explode?

MR SHOKE: I was not told of that, I was not with them when they set the bomb.

MR LANDMAN: Now did you leave Diepkloof later and travel in the direction of Ellis Park Rugby Stadium?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: In what vehicle were you?

MR SHOKE: I was in a Kombi.

MR LANDMAN: Who drove that Kombi?

MR SHOKE: I was the driver of the Kombi.

MR LANDMAN: Was anybody with you?

MR SHOKE: Yes, I was with Dube.

MR LANDMAN: And who was driving the vehicle in which the car bomb had been placed?

MR SHOKE: Dumakude was driving the car bomb.

MR LANDMAN: And was Harold with him?

MR SHOKE: Yes he was with him.

MR LANDMAN: Now when you arrived in the vicinity of Ellis Park what happened?

MR SHOKE: I did not even reach the vicinity. When they took the right turn I took the left turn to go and wait for them at a spot agreed upon that after setting the bomb they would meet us.

MR LANDMAN: And where was that spot?

MR SHOKE: I was going to wait for them at Checkers in Hillbrow.

MR LANDMAN: Did you in fact wait for them at Checkers?

MR SHOKE: Yes I waited for them.

MR LANDMAN: Did Dumakude and Harold later come to the vehicle, to the Kombi?

MR SHOKE: Yes, they arrived.

MR LANDMAN: Did you hear the explosion?

MR SHOKE: Yes I heard the explosion.

MR LANDMAN: Do you know what time the explosion was?

MR SHOKE: I think it was round about five o'clock. Yes, round about five o'clock.

MR LANDMAN: Now when you participated in the activities that week and in particular on the Saturday, were you acting under any instructions or orders?

MR SHOKE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Whose orders?

MR SHOKE: Dumakude's orders.

MR LANDMAN: Did you consider Dumakude to be a commander in uMkhonto weSizwe?

MR SHOKE: He was our commander.

MR LANDMAN: Did you believe that Dumakude was carrying out instructions that had been given to him?

MR SHOKE: Yes he was also executing orders given to him.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke, now that you know that the car bomb caused the loss of two lives as well as a number of injuries, would you describe to the Committee how you feel about that?

MR SHOKE: I regret the injury of the injured ones and those who died. It was not our intention to go and kill people. I will stop there.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you, that's the evidence in chief.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shoke, you refer to Dube, Mr Dube as Captain Dube. Is he presently in the SANDF?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Are you also employed in the SANDF?

MR SHOKE: No I'm not employed within the SANDF. I am not working for the force.

ADV PRIOR: And Mr Matshididi, do you know where he is employed?

MR SHOKE: He is a policeman.

ADV PRIOR: Now M.K., uMkhonto weSizwe, was the military wing of the ANC. The ANC formed a political body is that correct and the M.K. the military arm?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: At the time of the Ellis Park Bomb, were you politically aware, in other words were you up to speed and up to date on the political decisions made by the ANC or the policies made by the ANC at the time?

MR SHOKE: Yes I knew the policy.

ADV PRIOR: I just never caught the reply to a question by your counsel - did you say there was no order from the M.K. to attack civilian targets or there was an order from M.K. to attack civilian targets?

MR SHOKE: Repeat your question Sir?

ADV PRIOR: I just want to get clarity, was there an order or an instruction that came to your attention that civilian targets like the one at Ellis Park Stadium, rugby stadium, was to be attacked?

MR SHOKE: No there is no such order.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell us whether as far as you were concerned, were you aware that it was policy of uMkhonto weSizwe in fact to attack civilian targets at the time, that is soft targets?

MR SHOKE: It was never the policy.

ADV PRIOR: So would you agree in the light of what we've heard from Mr Matshididi and what I put to him in questioning and your own knowledge, the planting of a bomb in such a soft area if I may put it that way, was a departure, was a moving away, was something different to what M.K. had been involved in up until that time? Let me be more specific, your targets up to that time were hard targets in the sense they were either military installations, police stations and the like, institutions closely linked to the Government of the day?

MR SHOKE: It was not our intention to kill people, to injure people, civilians.

ADV PRIOR: Yes I hear what you saying but I just want to get the distinction in your mind if such a distinction is made by yourself. Up until that stage uMkhonto weSizwe and the unit that you were a member of, we've heard that from Mr Matshididi or co-applicant, the type of missions that you went on were to attack government buildings, installations, police stations and the such, the like?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: We've heard evidence over the many months and years of the TRC that there was a reference in military terms to hard and soft targets. The targets that you now talk about, the military and the police stations were hard targets as opposed to unarmed civilians being soft targets. Was that distinction clear in your mind at the time?

MR SHOKE: I knew the distinction between the two.

ADV PRIOR: So not having a general instruction to attack soft targets, do I then understand, am I correct in saying to you that the planing of a bomb at Ellis Park, even though it wasn't your intention to kill or injure anybody, it was planted in a civilian area, that that was a departure, it was something different to what your unit as an M.K. unit was used to doing? It was a different type of operation?

MR SHOKE: We did not deviate.

ADV PRIOR: Let me try and simplify it. You were a member of the M.K. unit. To attack a police station in a military fashion with weapons and attack the policemen in that unit who were also armed was a target that we know, we've heard evidence about as referred to loosely as a hard target. Are you saying the planting of a bomb in a street outside a rugby stadium is the same type of target you were used to attacking and you had orders to attack?

MR SHOKE: We were taking a message across to the white people.

ADV PRIOR: And that message was what?

MR SHOKE: That the killing of people in the townships can also happen to them. We were sending the message to the white area.

ADV PRIOR: In other words that white people gathered together for example at a rugby match, were also capable of being killed like the black people who were dying in the townships. Is that the message you wanted to convey?

MR SHOKE: Repeat your question Sir?

ADV PRIOR: The message that you wanted to convey was that white people could also be killed just as black people were being killed in the townships?

MR SHOKE: No, they were supposed to intervene and talk to their leadership about what was happening in the townships.

ADV PRIOR: Do I understand your evidence to be that when Dumakude came to you and said as I understand Mr Matshididi's evidence, a message has to be sent out to the white people of this country, they must understand that their position is also vulnerable, they can also be killed because our brothers and sisters in the townships were being killed. Are you say that the fact that he bomb would explode that the white people would the have to make representations to the Government to change their ways? Is that your evidence?

MR SHOKE: That is what I want to tell you.

ADV PRIOR: Couldn't that statement have been made if the bomb was planted away from where so many people would be gathered?

In other words in a deserted car park where for example at a shopping complex where there was nobody at all? Or at a deserted sports field or at a deserted stadium? Could that message have not been got across in that way?

MR SHOKE: Dumakude instructed us to take the bomb to that place.

ADV PRIOR: I want to know from you, I hear that you were acting under orders but as far as you were concerned did you possibly think that maybe the message we could get across to the white people in a different way, we didn't have to plant a bomb near a rugby stadium where many people were gathered or didn't you think like that at all?

MR SHOKE: Sir, that's how we thought of this, we thought that the message would reach the white people.

ADV PRIOR: And you didn't think that people could be injured or killed, placing this powerful bomb in a vehicle so close to the stadium?

MR SHOKE: We did not go there with the intention of killing people. It was placed far from the gates. I was not there but I was told that it was not placed close to the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: How far was it from the houses in the street?

MR SHOKE: I did not see them when they planted the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you go there the night before and pick a place to park the bomb, to plant the bomb?

MR SHOKE: Yes, we went but he did not say where the bomb would be placed, he was actually checking the place.

CHAIRPERSON: You say there was no suggestion the night before of where the bomb would be placed?

MR SHOKE: He said he would place it there but I don't know where he placed the bomb because at that time I was not present, I was not with them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we were told it was in front of an old house, weren't we?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, if I could just intervene for a moment? I don't know whether there's common cause between myself and Mr Prior but my instructions are that the houses in that area were derelict and abandoned and it was a very old part of Johannesburg, part of Doornfontein.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I indicate to the Committee a bit later on whether that is in fact common cause, I can't give that assurance at this stage but we'll certainly revert to the Committee whether anyone was resident there at the time but certainly they were very old houses.

Did you not - when you reconnoitred the street where, that was on the Friday, did you see there were old houses there?

MR SHOKE: Yes, there were old houses nearby.

ADV PRIOR: But you didn't know that people were not staying there or lived there, did you?

MR SHOKE: Those were just walls without roofs, it look like people did not stay in.

ADV PRIOR: And when you went there on the Friday did cars drive past you, was there any movement in that street? Did you see people walking around there?

MR SHOKE: It was a quiet area, there were no cars driving by, no movements.

ADV PRIOR: From where you reconnoitred, that street where you decided on the Friday that this would be a good place, you could see the Ellis Park Stadium, is that correct?

MR SHOKE: I do not remember but I think the stadium was far.

ADV PRIOR: I know you say you drove on and possibly never saw where the bomb, the car bomb was planted and if you look at the bundle page 43, that is the third bundle at page 43. According to Mr Matshididi they parked the vehicle he says behind a bus. There's a bus in that photograph, can you see that?

MR SHOKE: Yes I see.

ADV PRIOR: Unfortunately it's not a very clear - well it's a photocopy but one sees in the background the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium.

MR SHOKE: I don't see quite clearly but yes I see something here.

ADV PRIOR: Well maybe your attorney can maybe just point out the stands that one sees in the background behind the bus?

MR SHOKE: I can see that.

ADV PRIOR: Alright. But in any event your intention was to explode this bomb near the rugby stadium where many people were watching the game in such a manner that they would be effected in what ever degree to approach the Government or approach whatever political party belonged to, to do something about the situation in the country, is that correct?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And you accept now today that you, apart from selecting this quiet street on the Friday, you took no steps to prevent any other person being injured or killed by this bomb exploding as it did on the Saturday?

MR SHOKE: The person who assembled the bomb is the relevant person to answer that question, I know nothing about bombs.

ADV PRIOR: But you knew that when bombs explode people can be killed, especially bombs placed in the street or near buildings, is that right?

MR SHOKE: Yes you are right.

ADV PRIOR: Before you planted this Ellis Park bomb there had been other bombings that M.K. had done, is that correct?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: You knew about those bomb blasts, is that right?

MR SHOKE: No.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Shoke, did you say you went to - you drove to Hillbrow and waited at Checkers. Are you able to tell the Committee how long you waited before Mr Dumakude and Mr Matshididi arrived?

MR SHOKE: I did not wait a long time before they arrived, it was just a short time. When they were close enough we heard a sound and we got into the car and drove off.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell the Committee how far you drove away from the Ellis Park Stadium, in other words how far that stadium was from where you parked at Hillbrow?

MR SHOKE: I did not even reach the stadium, when they turned right I turned left towards Hillbrow.

ADV PRIOR: Would one have to travel more than five minutes by car or are you unable to tell us? I just need to try and get a sense of how long it was from the time that they put the bomb there until it went off, I'm trying to establish that.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it be possible to obtain the distance Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: My feeling which is vague is that it's quite a long way for - to walk?

MR LANDMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, what I'll do is I'll drive that distance at night and hopefully I'll get out of Hillbrow.

CHAIRPERSON: If it's not too much trouble for you if it's approximately in your way we would be obliged. Thank you Mr Landman.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.

Were you aware at any stage that the ANC after the Ellis Park bomb was not claiming responsibility for that and I tell you on what I based that. There was a report in a press statement that at a meeting at Harare after the Ellis Park bomb, it was a delegation of various politicians and businessmen and I understand Mr Louis Luyt or Dr Louis Luyt was also part of that delegation and the ANC had indicated there that they were unaware who had done that and because of that they couldn't claim responsibility?

CHAIRPERSON: They couldn't claim responsibility not that they were in any way condemning the attack.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, the impact of my question or the purport of it is that at time it seems from the press clipping and obviously one must be careful but just for his comment, it seems that the ANC were unaware at that time of who had carried out that attack. Are you able to comment?

MR SHOKE: The most relevant person to answer to that question is Dumakude who was the commander of the unit.

ADV PRIOR: I just get a sense from your evidence that your participation was just purely perfunctory, you could quite easily have stayed at home? The fact that you drove the vehicle - Dube could have driven the vehicle. Is that correct?

MR SHOKE: Dube cannot drive.

ADV PRIOR: Oh I see. The unit that you referred to was a four man unit, is that right?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And when operations were carried out on orders did the unit normally perform those or carry out those orders as a unit and not as individuals?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Shoke, is there anything you wish to say to the victims who are present today?

MR SHOKE: I want to say to them I am sorry, it was not our intention to kill people or to injure anyone.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you. Mr Chairman, just for the record I have a statement of a Mrs Mary Magdalene Bothma who at the time was residing at No. 3a Upper Meyer Street, Doornfontein. So there may well have been, and at this stage we do not want to make an issue of it but there may well have been derelict houses but certainly from the statement that I have it's a damage bundle which hasn't been put before the Committee because of it's volume and I'll make that statement available for whatever worth it is, that she certainly was resident at No. 3a. So there may well have been derelict houses but certainly it seems one or two may have been occupied although she ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The photograph you showed us, the house 43, does not look to be derelict. It's got a roof on it and what have you, the house behind the blown up car.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman I'll certainly make enquiries.

CHAIRPERSON: Well when we see the proper coloured photographs tomorrow, it might be possible to ascertain from them without the necessity of - because these photographs, it's very difficult to make any clear conclusion.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR LANDMAN: No re-examination.

ADV PRIOR: I just want to ascertain from the victims if they wanted? - thank you Mr Chairman, there's no questions from them.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Shoke did you receive any military training?

MR SHOKE: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Where?

MR SHOKE: In Botswana.

DR TSOTSI: What kind of military training was it?

MR SHOKE: It was a crash course.

DR TSOTSI: A crash course. Did you use explosives in that crash course?

MR SHOKE: No we did not use explosives.

DR TSOTSI: This unit that you refer to, by whom was it formed, your unit, by whom was it formed and when?

MR SHOKE: The unit was formed by Dumakude.

DR TSOTSI: Where?

MR SHOKE: In the country, inside South Africa.

DR TSOTSI: And did Dumakude not go abroad ...[inaudible] or for training?

MR SHOKE: He went for training.

DR TSOTSI: At what stage did he form the unit?

MR SHOKE: When he came back to the country.

DR TSOTSI: So he formed the unit here in South Africa after he returned from military training?

MR SHOKE: He came in and go, came in and go.

DR TSOTSI: Did he have the authority to form a unit?

MR SHOKE: Yes, he was the commander.

DR TSOTSI: He was a commander but he had the authority to form a unit, is that right?

MR SHOKE: He had the authority.

DR TSOTSI: Now you say that you did not yourself participate in the laying of the bomb, you did not participate when the bomb was placed?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

DR TSOTSI: I'd like to refer you to your statement on page 2 of the - right at the bottom there - car bomb at Ellis Park. The second line where you say the car containing the explosives was placed near the gates of Ellis Park and the timing device was set. Did you make that statement from your own knowledge?

MR SHOKE: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Yes and how do you know where the car was - where the car containing the explosives was placed if you did not in fact attend the scene?

MR SHOKE: When they assembled the bomb I was with them.

DR TSOTSI: Where did they assemble the bomb?

MR SHOKE: We were at Zone 5, Diepkloof.

DR TSOTSI: Yes but I want to know about the place near the gates of Ellis Park, were you present when the car containing the bomb was stationed near Ellis Park?

MR SHOKE: When the placed the car, I was not with them. I drove to Hillbrow to wait for them.

DR TSOTSI: So it's not correct that you say that as far as you know from your knowledge that a car containing the explosives was placed near the gates at Ellis Park and the timing was set? Of your own knowledge unless you heard that from somebody else?

MR SHOKE: I don't understand your question Sir?

DR TSOTSI: The question is simple. Were you present when the car containing the explosives was placed outside Ellis Park?

MR SHOKE: I was not present.

DR TSOTSI: So why then do you say in your statement that the car was in fact placed near the gates of Ellis Park? It says he was not present.

MR SHOKE: I was part and parcel of the people who went to place the bomb but I did not reach the final place where the bomb was planted.

DR TSOTSI: You see the evidence says that the bomb was not placed at the gates ...[inaudible] it was a distance away but in your statement you say it was at the gates?

CHAIRPERSON: The passage that has been read to you is that from paragraph 9(a)i of your application for amnesty - do you agree - under the heading "Car Bomb at Ellis Park 1988" and is it absolutely identical with the same paragraph in your co-applicants application at page 8?

MR SHOKE: Yes, they are.

CHAIRPERSON: Who filled in the applications for you?

MR SHOKE: If I'm not mistaken it was Patience.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Patience?

MR SHOKE: She is our consultant.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chair maybe I can explain. She works at the ANC Truth Desk.

CHAIRPERSON: One point I think I would like to ask you about. Yes, you talked about the message to the white people or a message to the whites, do you remember that, that is the purpose of the bomb?

MR SHOKE: I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: By that did you mean a message to those people who were governing the country at the time?

MR SHOKE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman do you have any further evidence?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I don't have any further evidence, I just want to place on record that we do intend relying upon the contents of the submissions made by the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not trying to bring you to an end at the moment, I merely as you may recollect Mr Prior said that the victims might wish to make a statement and if they could do so today it would be convenient that one of them has come from a long way away, so I merely thought if you're not calling any further evidence at this stage could we dispose of that now?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I can confirm we will not going to be calling any more evidence at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior you can now call the victims who wish to come forward and make statements.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I might indicate that because of the development of the other persons appearing tomorrow, both victims have said that they would remain in attendance but notwithstanding that I think we should use the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Do they wish to do so now or would they rather do it when they've heard all the evidence regarding the applicants. It may be that tomorrow they have a somewhat different approach to the matter. It would be fairer to them to make any statement they wish to after the matter has been concluded. In the light of the understanding, I will not call it agreement, about a possible appearance tomorrow, it would seem it would be convenient to take the adjournment at this stage and we consider our position at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning if that suits you Mr Landman?

MR LANDMAN: ...[inaudible]

ADV PRIOR: Yes that would be a prudent course to adopt.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn and I hope that we will be able to commence at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.