-------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Amnesty Committee, comprising of myself as Chairman and on my right, Advocate Chris de Jager SC, and on my left Advocate Leah Gcabashe.

We are met to consider applications for amnesty by Joel Mokoena, Masoba van Rooyen, Abram Maumakwe, Stephen van Rooyen, Gustaff Morupisi, and Butamnuel Selefe.

Are we ready?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, we're ready to start.

MR KOOPEDI: I confirm that we are ready to start Mr Chairman. As the Commission pleases. The first applicant is sitting before this Commission. The procedure to have him sworn in, should I take care of that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it appropriate that I should ask him to do that. Will you ask him to stand please.

JOEL BOYKI MARAPISI MOKOENA: (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: We will then proceed, Chairperson.

Would you state your full names for the record?

MR MOKOENA: Joel Boyki Marapisi Mokoena.

MR KOOPEDI: Where is your home?

MR MOKOENA: Kutsaong township.

MR KOOPEDI: Where do you stay now?

MR MOKOENA: Presently I'm serving a sentence at Potchefstroom Correctional Services.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, I've just been warned by the technicians here that the applicant has to raise his voice. I will ask him to raise his voice so that he can be properly heard.

You were saying where you live at the moment.

MR MOKOENA: Presently I'm serving a sentence at Potchefstroom Correctional Services.

MR KOOPEDI: When and where were you convicted?

MR MOKOENA: I was convicted on the 19th of June 1992, at the Rand Supreme Court in Johannesburg.

MR KOOPEDI: What was the sentence.

MR MOKOENA: The sentence imposed was 13 years imprisonment.

MR KOOPEDI: For what offence or offences?

MR MOKOENA: For two counts of murder.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you have applied for amnesty?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that the amnesty applied for relates to those two convictions?

MR MOKOENA: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you for the record's sake state who the victims were, the people who died?

MR MOKOENA: The victims or the people who died were the members of the criminal gang who were terrorising the community at the time. Their names are KK Nxaku and Boetie Mafino Sedisa.

MR KOOPEDI: Now is it correct, as I've seen in your application for amnesty, that you were a member of the ANC Youth League and the SDU?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Whereabout was this, which branch?

MR MOKOENA: At Kutsaong, Carltonville branch.

MR KOOPEDI: Now from your amnesty application you refer to the fact that this was an era where the community was being terrorised by gangsterism. Would you for the purposes of this sitting, explain to this Honourable Commission what were the deeds of the deceased or the gangsterism rather?

MR MOKOENA: Actually it was during the time when our township was run by gangsters and thugerism. Crime was the order of the day, violence, killing, and the day to day killings, to mostly the supporters, the followers and the ANC Youth League members during that time.

The deceased and other members of their gang were a gang that was terrorising the community, ranking from their senseless attacks and the stabbings mostly to the African National Congress Youth League.

MR KOOPEDI: Is there a particular reason, that is if you know, why these people would mostly target members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: Personally I didn't have any idea why their actions were related to the members of the ANC Youth League, but to my concern that time, they were victimising those who were in favour of delivering what was expected from the ANC Youth League or the ANC in general, because mostly the victims of the very same gang were the members, the followers and the community at large.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you explain what this terrorism was, what exactly did they do, and if you are in a position to do so, perhaps mention incidents?

MR MOKOENA: In most cases the gang activists were, the attacks, they were mostly dealing with attacking the people, mostly the ANC Youth League. Like they have done in the past. Starting in the late 1989, when one of the them KUSCO, being Kutsaong Student Congress member was stabbed to death by the very same criminal gang.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the name of the person?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us the name of the person?

MR MOKOENA: The name of my fellow comrade who died at that time was Mr Lucas Manxgane Bodibe.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it.

MR KOOPEDI: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Lucas Manxgane?

MR MOKOENA: Manxgane Bodibe, the surname is Bodibe.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that B-U-T-I-L-E?

MR MOKOENA: B-O-D-I-B-E.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was he attacked?

MR MOKOENA: He was attacked during the holidays of the September month in 1989, during the school holidays of September month in 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

Now I want you to get the events leading up to the cause of your conviction, is there anything that was done by the gangsters, or in particular the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: Of course yes. 1991 was of course a year of victimisation if I may say so, to all the members of the ANC Youth League and the entire community in Block 7 where I was staying.

January month of that year, one of the comrades was killed by what is believed to be the third force activities or the hit squad activities.

Then in April month during the long-weekend of Good Friday, the then General Secretary of the ANC Youth League, Mr Cassius Mahuma, was held at gunpoint by the deceased and some other members of the gang. He was searched, intimidated and accused of being one of the comrades.

In August month, the very same year of 1991, the family of Matsaba were on their way to the doctor when the deceased and other members of their criminal gang attacked the car on its driveway to the doctor. The car was smashed by the throwing of stones, the house was smashed by throwing of stones, and as a result of that one of the family members sustained injuries from head to body. Then as the car was on its way to the doctor for the child illness, the young boy passed away the very same night. It was hardly a month when Mr John Mokome was stabbed critically on the 7th of September 1991 ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Koopedi, could he go a little bit slower, it's difficult to write down what he is saying because it's not exactly what has been recorded already. We have got to write it down, so I will appreciate it if he could go a little bit slower.

MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases you Honourable Commissioner. We have noted that, we will try and be a little slower.

MR MOKOENA: Can I start all over again?

CHAIRPERSON: You were saying that Mr John Mokome was attacked in September, was it?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it was on the night of the 7th of September 1991, when Mr Mokome was attacked by the deceased and other members of their criminal gang, and it is when all of us as the members of the African National Congress Youth League at Block 7, gathered to trace or follow the information that can help us to get or to find those who were responsible for the attack.

In all the attacks I've given to the Commission, all the matters have been reported to the police and no-one was held responsible for whatever attack and whatever damage to property which were persuaded by the gang that the deceased and other gang members ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: Now you're saying at this stage that there were other incidents that had occurred which you believed related to this gang, which were reported to the police but there hasn't been any action?

MR MOKOENA: Of course yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now for the purpose of our understanding here, and probably for the Honourable Committee Members, would you be able to tell what made you think that the deceased people, or rather their gang was responsible for the number of things you've mentioned? What was the link?

MR MOKOENA: I can say that from the first one in 1991 to Mr Cassius Mahuma who was the then General Secretary of the committee of the ANC Youth League, he came to us as a fellow comrade, we are staying at the very same section, we share almost everything everyday, and he was on his way home from work when it happened to him. The matter was reported the very same day to the police station but no-one was held responsible, every though they were known by both the victim, us and the community. Even the police did know them.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know?

MR MOKOENA: I came to know about the attack on Mr Mahuma the very same day after it happened to him.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm asking you how you knew about the identity of the deceased, that the deceased were amongst those who did the attack?

MR MOKOENA: I can say that I know the deceased and other member of the gang from a long time ago. Some of them I grew up with and we were all at the very same school at the time, during the days of schooling. I know them as residents of Kutsaong and I know them because of their wrong deeds to the community.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but did you see them killing this person?

MR MOKOENA: The attack on Mr Mahuma, I didn't witness it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we are concerned to find out what evidence is there that the deceased and not other members of the gang, I'm talking about the deceased, that the deceased were responsible for that attack.

MR MOKOENA: Yes. As Mr Mahuma was saying at the time, the deceased were also present during the attack.

MR KOOPEDI: So your answer is that you were told by Mr Mahuma?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I was not - at the time he was held at gunpoint.

MR KOOPEDI: That is what the Honourable Committee Members have been trying to establish.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.

MR KOOPEDI: Now there are other incidents where your fellow comrades were terrorised. It is I believe in the interest of this Committee to know the link between the deceased people and the acts of terror in the community, would you be able to tell the Committee how you linked the two people? Was it just a mere suspicion or did you have facts, how did you know?

MR MOKOENA: I know the deceased. Like I've said, I did know them about their attack, which to my political awareness and belief that I have that and I believe in that, that since they are known to the police, they've been reported to the police, they are known to the community, it was to my concern that there was something like maybe being involved with the police because most of the time whenever they have committed a crime, a crime has been reported, but yet nothing happened to the perpetrators of the actions.

MR KOOPEDI: Shall we move on to the Lucas Manxgane Bodibe incident. You said he was attacked, is it true he was attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it is true.

MR KOOPEDI: And what happened to him?

MR MOKOENA: Manxgane was attacked by the most notorious members of the very same gang, including Twala, Big Five, officially the notorious amongst them all, and the late KK Nxaku. He was attacked and hospitalised. He died when he arrived at the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that Manxgane was attacked by members of the gang, including Twala and Big Five, is that the name of a man, Big Five?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's the name of one of the criminal gang members.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else, just Twala and Big Five, or was there somebody else?

MR MOKOENA: And one of the deceased, KK Nxaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR KOOPEDI: It will be in the interest also of this application to perhaps explain how you know that Manxgane was attacked by these people, did you witness that?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I witnessed that. I was with Manxgane during the day of the attack.

MR KOOPEDI: So you saw him being attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I saw him being attacked by the notorious three of them, criminal gang.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. What happened thereafter, after the attack?

MR MOKOENA: After the attack, as fellow comrades of Manxgane we organised transport to rush Manxgane to the hospital where he died on arrival. After that, as Manxgane was one of the Kutsaong Student Congress members, and myself too as my school-mate and my class-mate, it was a mandate which was made by the student to go and search for those who were responsible for the stabbing to Manxgane.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave that mandate?

MR MOKOENA: It was a mandate which was reached by the Executive Committee of the Kutsaong Student Congress ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the mandate?

MR MOKOENA: The mandate was to go and search for those who were responsible for the attack on Mr Manxgane.

MR KOOPEDI: To search and do what? Supposing you searched and found them, then what?

MR MOKOENA: To search and to find those who were responsible and to hand them over to the police as the school was near the police station that time.

MR KOOPEDI: After that mandate was given, what happened?

MR MOKOENA: We did go in search of those who were responsible for the attack on comrade Manxgane, including searching them in their residence or parental homes, but we didn't find any of them.

MR KOOPEDI: And?

MR MOKOENA: And from then on the matter was reported to the police station with identifications of those who were responsible for the attack on Manxgane, but up until now no-one was held responsible for the attack.

MR KOOPEDI: What happened thereafter?

MR MOKOENA: Thereafter they kept on terrorising the community with their actions, ranging from attacking the students, attacking the youth around the township, and mostly victims were the ANC Youth League members.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it there. You're talking about terrorising the community, I'd like you to tell me about that. What do you mean by: "terrorising the community", why were they terrorising the ordinary members of the community?

MR MOKOENA: In fact to my foresee at that time, their actions were meant to terrorise the community because as they were best known with their actions ranging from pick-pocketing, stabbings, stealing and harassing the students without any reason, stabbing comrades and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear what you said.

MR MOKOENA: And stabbings to the Youth League members who were mostly the comrades, and they were students that they attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any of these members of the gang, were they themselves students at the time?

MR MOKOENA: At the time when they attacked Mr Manxgane, some of them were no longer students. Some of them did leave school in 1985/1986, before Manxgane was attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: You said you witnessed the attack on, who was it, Mr Manxgane, did they tell him why they were attacking him?

MR MOKOENA: In fact the matter that led to the attack on Manxgane was one of their actions being pick-pocketing.

MR KOOPEDI: Please explain, deliberate further.

MR MOKOENA: Okay. Manxgane was attacked after he refused to be searched or to be robbed of his money, that is when the perpetrators stabbed him in a manner that doesn't show any feelings for a comrade like Manxgane.

MR KOOPEDI: But was Manxgane attacked as a member of the Youth League or was he attacked just as an ordinary person who had refused to be pick-pocketed?

MR MOKOENA: I'm really sure and I believe that they did know Manxgane as a comrade, they did know Manxgane as one of the Student Congress members, and I think the attack was because he was a member of the Kutsaong Student Congress.

ADV DE JAGER: You told us that they mostly attacked ANC people or Youth League people, did they also attack other people?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, they did attack mostly other people around the section.

ADV DE JAGER: Not being involved with the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: What I can say is that mostly the victims were the followers and supporters of the ANC Youth League.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that because the majority of the people staying there were supporters of the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Definitely.

ADV DE JAGER: But they also attacked other people who were not supporters of the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: To those who have, those who they have committed their crimes to, I know of those who were the members, the supporters and the followers of the ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I understand that. Do you know any people who have been attacked who were not members of the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I got the impression from your evidence that this was a gang that just attacked the community including the members of the student group and the ANC Youth League, in other words they were terrorising the community, not necessarily just members of the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, like I've said, their actions were ranging from pick-pocketing, the stabbings and all that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in other words they were subjecting the entire community to that kind of activity.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Like a group of gangsters?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And among their victims were members of the Youth Congress?

MR MOKOENA: Mostly were the members of the Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you've given us just two or three names.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I can give other names if I may do so.

CHAIRPERSON: If you saw them do it. You see, I don't want you to come and tell us what you heard, others who heard it from somebody else.

MR MOKOENA: Yes. As it was known, I think even some of the people who were living there can witness to the fact that they were doing their actions, ranging from pick-pocketing, stabbings and the likes to the community.

ADV DE JAGER: There's also been mention that they raped people.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, some of them, the ones being sentenced to prison for a crime of rape, so raping was one of their objectives if I can say.

ADV DE JAGER: So the police in fact arrested some of them?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, during that time of the crime of rape, it was during the time 1986/'87, that time.

MR KOOPEDI: You have mentioned in your application the name of John Mokome, could you tell the Honourable Committee who he is and what happened to him, if anything?

MR MOKOENA: Mr John Mokome is a friend, he's a comrade and he's been a friend from childhood. We have been to school together and even now we are still on good terms, Mr Mokome, as a friend and a comrade.

MR KOOPEDI: But did anything happen to him, in particular was there any conflict or was he ever attacked by a gang member?

MR MOKOENA: Yes. It was on the night of the 7th of September when he was attacked by the very same criminal gang.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you know why he was attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

MR KOOPEDI: Do you know why he was attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Actually I don't know why he was attacked, but what can be the cause of the attack is what happened just before he left us where we were sitting, left us with the reason of going home. He was accompanied by one of the comrades who was residing at that section, Mr Kadi Sekome, who then came back after what happened to him and Mr Mokome.

He just came to inform us or to alert us about the attack on Mr Mokome and that is when we rushed to the scene and we found Mr Mokome lying in a pool of blood with holes, stabbings all over his body.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, to your knowledge, why was he attacked? After being told by this Mr Sekome, why was Mr Mokome attacked?

MR MOKOENA: As to his explanation about the attack, Mr Mokome just told us that KK, Twala, Big Five, Malgas, Moki and other members of the criminal gang just attacked them when they entered ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: Sorry, you're going to fast, start again with those names, KK?

MR MOKOENA: KK, Twala, Big Five, Moki, Malgas, and other members of the gang who were with one of the girls, two of the girls who were living at the same section with us, attacked Mr Mokome and Mr Sekome as they entered Block 7 where we were staying.

MR KOOPEDI: Now after the attack on Mr Mokome, did you as members of the Youth League take any action?

MR MOKOENA: Of course we did take action as members of the ANC Youth League.

MR KOOPEDI: What was the action? Perhaps let me ask, after this killing, was there a meeting, did people meet and if so, what was discussed in that meeting?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, we did meet just after the attack, as we were trying to follow the information that can lead us to catch or to find those who were responsible, to find or to catch those who were responsible for the attack.

We did have a meeting as comrades of Block 7 at that time, to can trace or to get any information that can lead us to catch or find the perpetrators.

MR KOOPEDI: So it is in this meeting that it was agreed that you were going to follow-up the assailants, the people who attacked your comrade?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, actually in that meeting so many things had been discussed, including the attack to the them General Secretary ...[indistinct], the attack to the family of Matsaba where a young boy lost his life and one of the family members sustained injuries from head to body.

It was now the third attack at our section to Mr Mokome, on the night of the 7th of September 1991. After we have discussed we got the information from one of the girls who were present during the attack on Mr Mokome. From then on ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: What was this information, the information that you got from this person you call a girl?

MR MOKOENA: Okay, the girl's name is Rebecca Silogilwe. Rebecca Silogilwe gave us the information that she witnessed the attack on Mr Mokome, who was stabbed at random by the deceased and other criminal gang members.

From then on, after we had taken her to show us where we can find them, we started to go in search from where they used to go and enjoy themselves. We go there house to house trying to find any information that can lead us to those who were responsible for the attack.

After failing to find one, we proceeded along again to their parental homes, each and everyone where he was staying. Others I didn't know where they were staying but with the help of Rebecca Silogilwe we managed to find their residential homes, and we did ask from their

parents, we did report about what had happened to Mr Mokome and no-one was their. Even their families didn't know about the whereabouts of the victims, of the gang members and what were they doing when they attacked Mr Mokome.

From then on this girl, Rebecca Silogilwe told us that if they're not around the township, they might have gone to Bekkersdal where they were owing a zozo at the X section at Bekkersdal, Westonaria.

CHAIRPERSON: They were owning a what?

MR MOKOENA: A shack, a zozo.

CHAIRPERSON: A zozo?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Zozo means a shack?

MR MOKOENA: A shack. After now getting the information from the girl, Rebecca Silogilwe, we didn't take that information for granted because to us and other comrades in the section it was a new thing to us to know that this criminal gang did have a place not around the township and to my concern it counts that maybe that place is a hiding place for them because most of the time after they committed the crime and even though the crime was reported to the police, they are not being fined for their responsibilities.

So all of us as the comrades of Block 7 did go further with this information we received from the girl, Rebecca Silogilwe. As it was late at night on the night of the 7th, we agreed by saying that we will have to meet tomorrow morning to discuss furthermore about the information we received from the girl, Rebecca Silogilwe.

What happened on Sunday the 8th ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: How many of you met?

MR MOKOENA: Almost the whole comrades at Block 7, we were about 30 to 35 at the time.

So on Sunday morning, as agreed last night, we gathered again at the very same venue where we used to gather, it's on a street like this and it's a four-way stop corner under the street light, we gathered there and some of our comrades who were not with us yesterday, yesterday night were there and some of them did know, did gather information that Mr John Mokome was stabbed by the criminal gang who were terrorising the community. As we were now there, my fellow comrade and co-accused, Steven van Rooyen was trying to explain how we came to know about the attack on Mr Mokome. He was trying to explain to those who were not with us yesterday, and he was further explaining our efforts to find those who were responsible on the night of the attack.

As he was giving, following the information we received from Rebecca Silogilwe, that they might have gone to Bekkersdal where they own a shack at the X section, as now the matter was put on discussion, all the comrades who were there were giving their side, their point of view as to the information and their support as to how we will find those who were responsible for the attack.

After an agreement which was reached that we must find a way to go and trace that hiding place of those who were responsible for the attacks which happened at our section, it's when were discussing the route to Bekkersdal, so as there was no other way which you can get to Bekkersdal except the fact that we must find transport to can go there with the transport, I myself and my co-accused and comrade, Gustaf Morupisi agreed to go and negotiate for transport that can take us to where the deceased and other members of the gang can be.

So we went there to the taxi rank and on arrival at the taxi rank we introduced ourselves to the drivers and the those drivers did know, we did know them and they did know us because they were both staying at the very same section where we were staying. We tried to explain everything that had happened the night before about one of our comrades and to arm, and to some attacks which were committed by the very same criminal gang.

They agreed to take us to Bekkersdal only if we can help them by maybe filling up the petrol tanks. We agreed to that, myself and Mr Gustaf Morupisi. From the

taxi rank we moved with two kombi's and after we arrived where the comrades were gathering ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, these taxi drivers, they were not members of ...[indistinct]

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: The taxi drivers which you negotiated with, were they also members of the Youth League or weren't they members?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, the other one, Mr Sagosi Selabogo was one of the Kutsaong Student Congress at the time of his schooling days, but at that time he was already a full-time taxi driver. He finished his school and he was a full-time taxi driver.

After arriving at the section under that street light where the comrades were gathering, we came by with two kombis from the taxi rank and now we were starting to donate for petrol. We donated the total amount of R90,00 for those two kombis and then from there we were on our way to Bekkersdal.

I did know Bekkersdal, but I never knew where the X sections were. My fellow comrade, Steven van Rooyen and Hendrik van Rooyen have a relative at Bekkersdal, so Steven van Rooyen did have full knowledge of the section of the X's.

As we were on our route to Bekkersdal, from those comrades, those 30 to 35 total, only 17 of us went to Bekkersdal in those two kombis.

CHAIRPERSON: How many?

MR MOKOENA: 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you left for Bekkersdal, 17 as you were, what was your mission, what were you going to do there? Could you explain this to the Honourable Committee?

MR MOKOENA: As concluded in the gathering, the mission to Bekkersdal was to find the perpetrators as to the information we received from the girl, Rebecca Silogilwe. The mission was to go and find the perpetrators of the attack on Mr Mokome, to stand their responsibility and to hand them over to the police if they did agree to what they had done to Mr Mokome ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: There's something I missed. You said something about responsible, one of the things was to then hand them over to the police and what else, what did you want from them? What did you want to do with them?

MR MOKOENA: In fact we wanted to catch the perpetrators since all their actions which they committed were reported to the police but no further actions were taken against what they were busy doing to the community.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. After catching them, supposing you were to catch them, what was the intention, what were you to do? Following from what was said in the meeting, what were you to do?

MR MOKOENA: In fact it was to go and, was to catch them and to hand them over to the family of Mr Mokome and to call the police, because something like to report it was no a thing that we were not believing, that whenever you report them to the police they will be arrested.

There was something like a friendship link between them and the police, because they were known to the police but whenever they've committed a crime they were never arrested. I want to ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: After they committed the previous crimes you went out in search of them.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, we did.

ADV DE JAGER: You went to their houses, to their parental houses, you couldn't find them, so they've disappeared ...[inaudible]

MR MOKOENA: ...[inaudible] the township, they might have gone to Bekkersdal.

ADV DE JAGER: And so you were lucky to find this girl and she knew where they were?

MR MOKOENA: Yes. In fact we didn't travel to Bekkersdal with the girl, she just gave us the information on the night of the attack.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes. How far is Bekkersdal from Kutsaong?

MR MOKOENA: I can't predict the kilometres, but it's not so far away, it's not so far, it's just the next town from Carltonville to Bekkersdal.

ADV DE JAGER: But you collected R90,00 for petrol for the two kombis?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: R45,00 each?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, they did fill up the tanks with that R90,00, both kombis were filled up by that R90,00.

ADV DE JAGER: So was it only the next town, next to Kutsaong?

MR MOKOENA: No, just from here in Carltonville. Bekkersdal, it's a township of Westonaria. I don't know if ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Of Westonaria?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, in Westonaria.

MR KOOPEDI: At the time when I interrupted you, you were still telling the Honourable Committee here that about 17 of you then got into the kombis to Bekkersdal, please go on from there.

MR MOKOENA: Yes. As we were on our way to Bekkersdal, we get to Bekkersdal and on our arrival at Bekkersdal we started at Mandela's Squatter Camp, it's a section of shacks there, where we did know some of our comrades were staying there.

We have gone to Mr White Mpesheni's shack, who was acting as a Chairman of the African National Congress Youth League at Bekkersdal. We did find Mr Mpesheni who was also surprised to see us in the early hours of the morning of the 8th of September. We tried and we explained what brings us to Bekkersdal in the early hours of the morning, and he himself asked whether can he give us, or are we going to need anything that can help us or lead to that information given by Rebecca Silogilwe on the night of the attack.

So now as comrade Steven van Rooyen had a full knowledge of that section of the X, we left Mr Bazuka Mpesheni with, after telling that we have the information of the X section ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: Can I ask you, the reason for going to Mr Mpesheni, what was it? Why did you decide to start there?

MR MOKOENA: In fact Mr Mpesheni's shack was just on a driveway when we entered Bekkersdal, so as a comrade we just entered there to give him what brings us, to give him the information what brings us to Bekkersdal in the early hours of the morning.

After leaving Mr Mpesheni's shack we proceeded along the main road straight to Up-town. There is a section they call Up-town, at Bekkersdal. It is where the van Rooyens have a relative there. So arriving there both kombis parked outside the yard and then myself, the van Rooyen brothers, we get into the house. The family members were there. Even myself I was a familiar friend there, they did know me. Steven van Rooyen was the one who tried to explain to the house what brings us to Bekkersdal in the early hours of the morning.

From then on we divided ourselves into two groups as there were comrades who did know the section of the X's just like Steven van Rooyen as my co-accused. From the yard, from the relative's family of Mr van Rooyen the other comrades travelled along to go and start searching where the X sections end.

So we together with comrade Steven van Rooyen were going to start at the Up-front where the X sections were, where the X sections start. We proceeded along the houses up until the first street of the X sections. We go on that way asking from the residents, trying to give them their names, the names of the criminal gang members, their nicknames, trying to search whether they have any knowledge of the people we are looking for. We found that no-one had any knowledge of where they can be.

As we entered the second street of the X sections of the shacks, proceeding that way, asking from one person to anther about maybe knowing, maybe if they did know or if they did see some of the people, but there was nothing, there was no-one who did know about them.

As we were still proceeding that way, it was likely that the perpetrators or the gang members did realise us from far away because as we were proceeding to our surprise we found that there was a group of people trying to flee, starting to flee from the last street of the section and we were moving in the second street of the X sections.

As they spread up by jumping the fences and by going out of that shack, we tried to locate that shack by following those who were running away from that shack. The two deceased, as the last street of that shack was facing the open veld leading to the Cook Two Mine(?) - as they say, there is a camp of a mine far away from where the zozos, from the last street of the X section, I together with my fellow comrades, Steve and Hendrik, we followed the deceased as they were running from the yard to the open veld of the, to the open veld where the whole thing happened after we reached them to that spot of the mine campers.

We followed them from their shack. We tried - as comrade Steve was moving in front of me, we tried to talk to them to stop, we are not fighting with them but they proceeded. As the mission was to go and catch them or to catch them to find them, we followed them up until the campers of the mine.

There was a fence which was covering the premises of the mine. They did jump that fence into the campus of the mine. We followed them the very same way and we get ...[indistinct], there was a main gate far from where they have jumped that fence, we get along with that gate and now there was no way for them to can run away again because now we were in the premises of the mine and there was nowhere where they could go.

As they took - as they stand, I took it to mind that maybe they give up or they have no way now to can go. Comrade Steve as he was in the forefront, he was the one who was trying to talk to Mr KK Nxaku while I was still on my way to where Steve was trying to talk with them.

As Steve was trying to get closer to Mr KK Nxaku, Mr KK Nxaku drew the gun and I screamed to Steve: "Steve, be alert, the guy is having a gun in his hand". He tried to shoot but the gun refused to shoot, and it is when we pick up the stones and we throw them with the stones. He tried to run away, he tried to shoot again but the gun never, no shot went off from the gun and we managed to grab him now.

Steve managed to hit him with a brick on the head, and as he fell down our aim was to grab him. The gun was far away from where he fell down. I kicked the gun as he was trying to grab the gun again. I kicked it to that grass and it's when we started to kick him, when he was struggling to stand up. He managed again to stand up and he pulled out the jungle knife and it was when we started to hit him with the stones. We hit him with the stones and he tried to fight back that jungle knife. We hit where - as it was not in the campus of the mine, it's was like a dump inside there, there were iron bars there, zincs and all that, so Steve hit him with an iron bar on the head and as he fell down I managed to take his jungle knife and it's when we started to stab him. I found that Mr Abram Maumakwe was already there when it happened, and it's when we hit him and we stabbed him, as Steve was hitting him with an iron bar.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now this is one of the deceased persons, do you know what happened to the other?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, they were not too far from each other when they ran away, so as to the forefront it was Steven van Rooyen and myself and Hendrik van Rooyen. At the time Steve tried to talk to KK Nxaku, Hendrik van Rooyen was trying to talk to Boetie Sedisa. I never had the full insight to what happened to Mr Sedisa but I finally came to see that it was ...[indistinct] that Mr van Rooyen and Mr Gustaff Morupisi ...[indistinct], the late comrade Tebogo, to attack Mr Sedisa.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Like I've said, that during the time Mr van Rooyen pleads for a peace-talk with Mr Sedisa, I lost touch that time when he tried to talk to him because now I was near Mr KK Nxaku together with comrade Steven van Rooyen, so what happened there totally I don't have any knowledge but I have seen him after he was stabbed.

MS GCABASHE: Did his attack take place in the same mining camp, as you call it, you know at that dump? Was it for both of them at the same place?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, they were there at the same camp and they were not far from each other, it was just a distance like this one, from here, from this table to that table there, the one there at the back.

MS GCABASHE: Now you earlier told us you had divided into two groups and you were in one group with Steven.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

MS GCABASHE: Was Hendrik with the other group?

MR MOKOENA: Hendrik was with us to the same group.

MS GCABASHE: So is it just the one group that essentially attacked both, the second group that had started at the end of the X section was not involved in this attack?

MR MOKOENA: They were not involved, they came after we have already attacked the deceased. During the time when that attack was still taking place they were still coming from behind. And those who have gone to start at the end of the X sections with a kombi, the kombi did get into the open veld but it was blocked by that fence that divided the township and the mine campers.

MS GCABASHE: And then how many of you, in terms of numbers, were in this group that attacked both gang members?

MR MOKOENA: Actually we were eleven but the six of us did reach the deceased before the other five came by.

CHAIRPERSON: And how were you armed, you and your friends?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course we were armed, starting from where we were, from our township, specifically myself I had a knife when to went to Bekkersdal.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody have a firearm?

MR MOKOENA: No, we didn't have the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the actual attack on the second deceased, who was responsible for that?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: The attack on the second deceased, the second person, who was involved in that attack?

MR MOKOENA: After a long fighting with Mr KK Nxaku whom we defeated until he never fought back, when I raised my head I found that Mr Hendrik van Rooyen, the late comrade Tebogo and Mr Gustaff Morupisi were there where Mr Sedisa was lying.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment at this stage and resume in fifteen minutes.

JOEL MARAPISI MOKOENA: (s.u.o.)

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Now before we had this short tea adjournment, you were still explaining how the two people died and especially the one deceased named KK. That appears to be where you were involved. Now, I would want to know as to how did it happen that after your mandate was to go and arrest or to go and catch, as you said, these people, why were they then assaulted or killed? Why were you then killing them?

MR MOKOENA: In fact I may say that it was a self-defence matter at that time but from the first instance as the mission and the agreement was concluded by the comrades, the mission was to go and catch the perpetrators. As a member of the ANC at the time and my fellow comrades, we did this as comrades. It was not something we were doing only for us, it was a thing that we agreed upon, that as members of the ANC Youth League we came to the decision that we are going to trace the perpetrators as the information we received on the night of the attack.

I would say that it was not meant to attack the perpetrators in the first place but the assaults and the attack took place after Mr KK Nxaku drew a gun. We thought we can get the gun off his hand. Now as he pulled out the knife it just happened that it's now a fight, it was no longer in the ...[indistinct] of now, having to can get him in our hands because he was having a knife at that time.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now in your application you refer to two gentlemen, one Nzeku and Ramagotedi and this is under instruction where you were asked if there were any orders given. Now, did these two gentlemen give any orders inasfar as this operation was concerned, did they give you any orders?

MR MOKOENA: No, they didn't give us the orders.

MR KOOPEDI: Why did you mention them, why are you referring to them in your application?

MR MOKOENA: In fact like I've stated in my application form, I was referring to the leadership part in fact because Mr Ramagotedi was in the Youth League Leadership and Mr Nzeku was Secretary General of the ANC Youth League.

Both Mr Nzeku and Mr Ramagotedi did know about the then tense situation in our area, they did know about the gang activities which were troubling the community at that time and of course they did know that the Youth League or the entire youth in our area were mostly the victims of the then situation of the day to day killings, attacks and the likes.

MR KOOPEDI: Before we sum up, is there anything that you want to say to this Committee, that we have not spoken about?

MR MOKOENA: In fact what I wanted to say that I want to thank first the Commission for the entire time they have given to me to have to can come up here and give the side of the story because ever since it happened seven years ago, I never had the chance like this one to can tell the whole truth of what had happened on the 8th of September 1991.

So as a member of the ANC Youth League and as a member of the ANC, I know the whole thing about this Commission since it was to established, and now I thank the Commission and the Commissioner for giving me this opportunity to reveal what had happened during that day of the 8th of September 1991.

MR KOOPEDI: Is that all?

MR MOKOENA: Furthermore I want to say that since the Commission's objective is to give, to hear all the truth about the past atrocities, the atrocities of the past which were pressurised by the past regime, I myself say that today as I'm sitting here before the Commissioners, what I'm giving now is only the truth about what happened during that day, about the deceased and now I'm asking from the deceased's family, the entire community Kutsaong, my family too and all those who have, whom I have caused a great pain because of my actions to all what had happened on the day of the 8th of September.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, that will be the case for the applicant for now.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: What standard of education have you had?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: What standard of education have you had?

MR MOKOENA: Standard 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR MOKOENA: Actually when I left school I was doing standard nine but I've now matriculated during my stay at prison.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of this occurrence, were you still a student?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the occurrence, were you still a student?

MR MOKOENA: No, I was employed.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing?

MR MOKOENA: What?

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing?

MR MOKOENA: I was employed at Golden West Engineering as a profile cutter operator.

CHAIRPERSON: You have mentioned the ANC Youth League, you mentioned the Kutsaong Youth Congress, is there any difference between these two bodies or are they the same?

MR MOKOENA: Actually I'll explain it this way: during the formation of Kutsaong Student Congress which was aligned with Kutsaong Youth Congress, KYCO in abbreviation. KYCO and KUSCO were the two bodies which gathered the entire youth of Kutsaong. KUSCO, as it was with the ideals of the Congress of South African Students, came after the unbanning of the organisations that it should be COSAS. And of course, KUSCO and KYCO are now the present ANC Youth League at Kutsaong. Mostly the members are still the ones from Kutsaong Student Congress and Kutsaong Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, are there any questions you wish to put to this applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman, if you would allow me a few questions.

Mr Mokoena, on your own version you have indicated that on the day of the incident the first deceased and the second deceased were basically trapped, they couldn't go anywhere, there were in the mine premises and they couldn't escape, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Of course it was correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And on your own version, after, it seems to me that after you had disarmed the first deceased you then embarked on stabbing the deceased, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: The stabbing of the deceased came after we disarmed him first of the gun and he drew out a knife, a jungle knife. That time it was during the course of what I can call, what I can describe as a fiction(?) fight between us and Mr KK Nxaku.

MR STEENKAMP: But please help me if I'm wrong, I understood your evidence to be that at the time when the deceased was killed he was not armed at all, you took the knife from him, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: As we were fighting I fought to get the knife out of his hand and then as he was trying to fight back I finally stabbed him.

MR STEENKAMP: Were you the only person that was stabbing the deceased or were there other people involved as well?

MR MOKOENA: During the stabbings I was with Mr Abram Maumakwe whilst Mr Steven van Rooyen was still hitting the deceased with an iron bar.

ADV DE JAGER: Just repeat the second name please, Mr Abram?

MR MOKOENA: Abram Maumakwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I hear you correctly to say that Abram Maumakwe struck the deceased with an iron bar?

MR MOKOENA: During the stabbings I was with Mr Abram Maumakwe while comrade Steven van Rooyen was still hitting the deceased with an iron bar.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, it's not quite clear to me, you say during the stabbing you were with Abram, did Abram also stab?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, Abram came at the time I started to stab Mr KK Nxaku. As he was still trying to fight back Abram was already there and we stabbed him.

ADV DE JAGER: What did Abram do?

MR MOKOENA: He did stab Mr KK Nxaku too.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did he get a knife?

MR MOKOENA: I don't know but as to my realisation he was armed with a knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, coming back to your political motivation, do you know if any of the deceased were ever members of any political organisation?

MR MOKOENA: From the two deceased I never have any knowledge of them being members of political organisations.

MR STEENKAMP: So they were not political enemies or had a contrary view at all, to your knowledge now, correct?

MR MOKOENA: Actually to my knowledge I won't say they were the enemy but what I can say is, they were the obstacles towards what was the aim of the entire youth of the township at that time.

MR STEENKAMP: So it seems to me, and please help me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that the only motive for this killing was pure revenge, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: I don't think so and I won't say that it was a revenge as I have never avenged or revenged in such a manner.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm sorry but I don't understand. What other motive did you have at that stage and accept - what was your motive then at that stage for killing the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: As concluded during the meeting, the motive was to go and catch the perpetrators and hand them over to the police since then all what they had done to the community and to the comrades was reported to the police but no further steps or maybe actions were taken against the perpetrators, thus giving us a doubt that maybe there was a link between the police and the criminal gang.

MR STEENKAMP: When you planned these actions did you discuss or consult this incident or the position of the two deceased at the stage with any of the ANC Youth League chairpersons or with any of the ANC leadership in the township?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, actually before leaving for Bekkersdal, like I have, like my co-accused, Mr Hendrik van Rooyen who was the Secretary Organiser and membership office of the ANC Youth League Interim Committee that time, according to him he did report the attack on Mr Mokome and our way forward to Bekkersdal with the aim to catch the perpetrators as it was concluded.

MR STEENKAMP: Just to pick up on your motive again, you see the difficulty I have of your evidence, dealing with your motive, is that both in the court a quo when you were convicted as in both the statements as contained the bundles of Mr Nzeku - Mr Chairman, page 70 to page 73 of the bundle, and Mr Jeremiah Ramagotedi, in both of those statements they state very clearly that your actions were purely criminal and there was no political content of motive whatsoever for your actions.

What is your reaction to that?

MR MOKOENA: I won't agree with what they're saying. I won't agree with what they're saying because my actions and my fellow comrade's actions came as we were the members of the ANC Youth League in the township.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you maybe just briefly, very briefly, explain to me what do you understand by political motive?

MR MOKOENA: Briefly what I can say is that to my concern, to my awareness about the political motive, it is clear that there must have been a reason aligned with political or maybe being in the interest of the political organisation or maybe whatever it can be, but on the side of the politics.

MR STEENKAMP: Just to follow on that, can you explain to me or the Committee how did the killing of the deceased further your political aims as you saw it?

MR MOKOENA: Sorry?

MR STEENKAMP: How could the killing of the deceased further your political aim at that stage? How did they benefit your political views at the stage when they were killed?

MR MOKOENA: In fact, as a Youth League member at that time and during the then tense situation around the township, the ...[indistinct] of the entire youth was to combat on all sorts of crime and to defend the community wherever it is needed.

CHAIRPERSON: All that really means is that you're fighting against criminals and crime, that's the emphasis. Criminals were harassing the community, terrorising the students, these gangsters.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is uppermost in your mind. My question really is, how is that connected with politics?

MR MOKOENA: Totally it was disturbing, the process of finally getting the formal launching of the ANC Youth League and to attend to the aims and objectives of the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why, if those who were apposing you had a political organisation of their own which opposed you politically then you were political rivals, do you understand?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: There hasn't been a word that has been uttered by you or in the papers to suggest that as far as the gangsters were concerned, that there was any politics at all in what they did. Do I make myself clear?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think that is the question that Mr Steenkamp is really trying to ...[intervention]

MR MOKOENA: Can you repeat the question again Mr Strydom?

MR STEENKAMP: I'll try to make it as easy as possible for you to understand. The question is this: it seems to me that there was basically a gang war in Kutsaong, is that correct, at the time of the killing?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, there were rival gangsters fighting each other.

MR STEENKAMP: And there was revenge attacks between the different gangs on each other, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, to those who were known to the township that time.

MR STEENKAMP: And on your own evidence, the killing of both the deceased was done because of the killing of the person you mentioned, I think you said, Mr - can you just help me with that name, how do you pronounce that name, the deceased? The deceased that was killed according by both the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: Manxgane.

MR STEENKAMP: Manxgane.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it was in 1989 that time.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that was the primary reason why both these deceased were killed by yourself?

MR MOKOENA: I won't agree with that because it happened in 1989 and they were still around after the matter was left in the hands of the police, so if it was meant to be revenge we would have revenged it if it was to be, but I won't say the aim was to revenge.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that you never received any mandate, directly or indirectly, from any ANC leader or organiser or member of the Youth League who was in charge of the youth at that stage, to kill anybody, am I right in saying that?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, you're right, we never received any mandate from anyone, but now since then we were the Youth League members and we were with one of the executive members within ourselves, of which whom I won't say he gave the mandate but it was a mandate from all the comrades who were gathered there during that meeting.

MR STEENKAMP: Maybe my ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get this clear. You see, when you decide among yourselves, a group of you, you might call that a mandate.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, not mandate but instructions. Nobody who was your senior in the ANC or in the Youth League gave you instructions to do what you did, that is the question isn't it?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was a mandate in the sense that it was a common decision taken by you among yourselves.

MR MOKOENA: Of course yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I'm informed Sir, that there was basically two big gangs operating in Kutsaong, the one being called the Kadafis and the other one being called the Zim Zims, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And were you a member of any of these gangs?

MR MOKOENA: Not at all, I was a member of the ANC Youth League.

MR STEENKAMP: And the deceased, were they members of any of these gangs?

MR MOKOENA: I don't have any knowledge. They were a gang which were known mostly by their activities ranging from pick-pocketing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they have a name, were they known by any name?

MR MOKOENA: Just as to myself I took them as criminal gang.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Nzeku states that the members who applied for amnesty - I refer to page 70, paragraph 3 of his affidavit, Mr Mokoena, Maumakwe, van Rooyen and Morupisi used to be members of the ANC Youth League but at the time of the commission of the offence were no longer members but belonged to a break-away group, is that correct or isn't it correct?

MR MOKOENA: It's not correct, I was still a member of the ANC at the time of that attack.

ADV DE JAGER: At that stage he was the General Secretary of the ANC, for Carltonville.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, Mr Nzeku was the General Secretary.

ADV DE JAGER: Wouldn't he know or could ascertain who were members at the time? Was there a member list or something?

MR MOKOENA: I don't know how to answer to that because now Mr Nzeku was in the above leadership, we did have the then General Secretary of the Youth League of which is Mr Cassius Mahuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Just spell that name again.

MR MOKOENA: Cassius: C-A-S-S-I-U-S, surname: Mahuma:

M-A-H-U-M-A.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he was the General Secretary of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was he?

MR MOKOENA: Where was he?

CHAIRPERSON: Where was his office or where did he work from as General Secretary of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: He was within the Executive Committee, they didn't have an office at the time but he was working alongside with my co-accused, who was the then Secretary Organiser of the ANC Youth League.

ADV DE JAGER: After you stabbed the deceased and after he was killed, did you come back and report to your organisation what has happened?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course. What we did on Monday the 9th of September, because on Sunday, the day of the attack, it was said that the comrades secretary was not present as the then ...[indistinct] committee of the Youth League had attended a West Rand general meeting of the ANC Youth League at Krugersdorp, so on Monday the matter did reach the entire committee and Mr Nzeku too who was at the time having an office at National Union of Mine Workers offices.

I did go there by myself, as the comrades did contact him before. I got there - as I was employed, after work I did go to the office the National Union of Mine Workers.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you speak to Mr Nzeku?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course I did.

ADV DE JAGER: Now he says in his affidavit further in paragraph 5:

Did you tell him why you killed the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: Just as I'm trying to give the full truth to the Commission, I explained it that way and each and every one of the members involved in the Executive Committee ...[inaudible] deceased on the 8th of September.

ADV DE JAGER: And after you'd been arrested and at your trial, did you ask for legal assistance from the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, as to what has been reported, actually the then General Secretary, Mr Cassius Mahuma before we stood trial at the Supreme Court, but after we had been arrested by the Westonaria Murder and Robbery Unit, we pleaded for a bail application but we were denied bail by the court until such time that we found the attorneys from Janse van Rensburg, Janse van Rensburg attorneys from Westonaria, with the help of our families.

We then appealed to the Youth League to help us since we were not in a position to be able to afford the costs of the advocates to stand trial in the Supreme Court. They did by him, the then Secretary General at the time, who gave us the application form of the Legal Aid for legal representation. We did fill in the applications but nothing came to our side ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I'm not asking about Legal Aid, I'm asking whether you've asked the ANC to assist you financially in your defence, because as members of the ANC you acted, or of the Youth League, you acted in searching or doing something about the deceased.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, we did ask for help, more especially the help to get the proper representation before court. According to Mr Secretary, the only way they could have helped us was for them to get us the advocates to stand trial with us at the Supreme Court and in that way they supplied us with the application forms of the legal aid.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes. Do you know Mr Jeremiah Ramagotedi?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I know comrade Ramagotedi.

ADV DE JAGER: He was the Secretary of the Youth League at that stage, in September 1991, of ANSIL.

MR MOKOENA: I know Mr Ramagotedi as one of the Executive Committee members but the guy whom I know as the Secretary was Mr Cassius Mahuma.

ADV DE JAGER: Now he's also made an affidavit, I think you must be aware of it, it appears on page 72 of the papers, and in paragraph 6 and 7 he says:

And then in paragraph 7:

Did they tell you why they refused to arrange and pay for your defence?

MR MOKOENA: Actually I won't say they refused because if they refused they would not have given us the application forms of the Legal Aid. We tried to persuade that this matter be given the proper representation but only what they could have done that time, they gave us the application forms of the Legal Aid.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any time break away and belong to another group, at the time of this trouble?

MR MOKOENA: Not at all, I was still a member and I'm still willing to be a member for my entire life, of the ANC Youth League and after then of the ANC.

MS GCABASHE: Can you just help me understand the way the ANC Youth League functioned as a structure, how it related to the ANC, the mother body, as you understood it?

MR MOKOENA: Okay what I can say is that the youth, as during the time of the struggle had played a major role in trying to organise and educate each other amongst any other thing that can maybe destroy the aims of reaching what the broad aim of the ANC as the mother body. To my point of view, the ANC Youth League played the major role in recruiting and mobilising the entire youth with the aims and the ideals of the ANC.

MS GCABASHE: To what extent were you then accountable to the mother body, the ANC, for the things you decided to do? What did the mother body expect from you?

MR MOKOENA: Actually during that time, during the then situation of the offences, the Youth League was trying its level best to establish or to implement a peace settlement amongst those who were killing each other during the time, and to finally have a formally launched ANC Youth League branch at Kutsaong.

MS GCABASHE: Yes, but what I really want to know is, were you operating fairly independently of the ANC itself, in terms of the way you conducted yourselves? You know you had the ANC Youth League, you had the Women's League, then you had the mother body, so I'm just trying to understand how you related to the mother body, nevermind what the things you actually did but how did you have to answer to them for the things you were doing?

CHAIRPERSON: Organisationally.

MR MOKOENA: In fact as to the organise was it was that time, we were acting, there was a closed communication link between ourselves as the Youth League and the mother body of the ANC, particularly moreover the fact that at the time we were the youth and our township was reigned by violence and all sorts of those things, so we as the Youth League at that time were there to upgrade or maybe maintain amongst other things, peace amongst the entire youth of Kutsaong and to forecast all the long and ongoing struggle of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, there is no difficulty in understanding that. I think my colleague here wants to know how you were connected organisationally, did the Youth League function on its own, independent of the ANC? You told us that you were in close contact, I can understand close contact but organisationally was there anything, any structures that met and took decisions jointly with the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, the ANC did have the mother body and the Youth League too as an Executive Committee, but what we did as members that time, I'm sure that the mother body too did understand what was happening between the ANC Youth League and the mother body. So we were not there by ourselves, the mother body too was there. So anything we did that time as members of the Youth League, the mother body too had a full knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS GCABASHE: Now in the context of that, why is it that you had two secretary generals? You had Jeremiah Ramagotedi and you have Mahuma, you knew of Mahuma.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I knew of Mahuma.

MS GCABASHE: Now explain having the two secretary generals for the one ANC Youth League, just to help me understand how that worked.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, like I've said, that comrade Oupa Ramagotedi, I knew him as one of the interim Executive Committee, even though I did not know what his portfolio was but Mr Cassius Mahuma was the General Secretary. If then he was not the General Secretary, then he could have been the Minute Secretary because most of that time during the meetings, Mr Mahuma was the one who was drafting the minutes in the meeting.

MS GCABASHE: So in terms of membership lists, it's Makuma who would know that you were active members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: Actually the entire committee did know. Right now, Mr Hendrik van Rooyen who is my co-accused was serving within the Interim Committee as a Secretary Organiser and a membership officer.

MS GCABASHE: Okay. Now one last aspect on this. Your own position, did you hold a particular position, even if it's in Block 7. in your area?

MR MOKOENA: Not just in the area of Block 7 but around the township.

MS GCABASHE: What was your position?

MR MOKOENA: I was acting as a self-defence unit member.

MS GCABASHE: But you were not here of the local branch or of the Street Committee or anything like that, you didn't have an official position within the organisation?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, as the SDU structure was not constituently launched that time.

MS GCABASHE: Now you have told us about three different incidents, starting from 1989 up to the time that these particular deceased were killed by you. Now before the 7th of September 1991, what discussions had you held with the ANC mother body about the problems you were experiencing in Block 7? Had you strategised, had you discussed, had you found a plan of action, can you explain that to me?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course I can. Actually, since the then situation was a violent one, it was not just from the ANC Youth League but from the entire community, the supporters and the followers of the ANC, that there was a need that the community

should be protected and now that they Youth League members of the Youth League, the entire Youth League around the township were totally disturbed by what was going on as violence was the order of the day, breaking and stopping the day to day schooling, hurting and destroying the minds of those who were with the ideals of the ANC at the time.

MS GCABASHE: But did you discuss a plan of action with the ANC leadership: "This is what we are going to as the ANC in Kutsaong", did you do that?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, in fact, what was planned that time, what was about to be a plan which was proposed by the ANC Youth League, was first to establish or to reach a peace settlement as violence was the order of the day and finally to have a formally launched ANC Youth League branch around the township.

MS GCABASHE: A slightly different aspect, that of the political affiliation of these gangs, these gangsters, that includes the deceased, KK and Sedisa, now you have said that you don't know of their political affiliation, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

MS GCABASHE: But you have also talked about police assistance being given to these particular gangs, you specifically talk about the police not following up on reports that were made to them.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, on crimes that were reported to them.

MS GCABASHE: Yes. Now were there other activities that the police were involved in, apart from not following up the criminal acts that you reported, were there other ways in which the police assisted these gangs?

MR MOKOENA: Actually from the gang the one where the two deceased were affiliated, I won't say much except the fact that to our concern that time, it was clear that there was a link if not a relationship with the police officers that time.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you are excused.

MR KOOPEDI: May I find out if you would prefer calling the next applicant now?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases the Commission. We will call the next applicant.

MR VAN ROOYEN: (sworn states)

MR KOOPEDI: May I explain, Honourable Chair, that the applicant prefers to give evidence in Sotho and that is why you may have missed: "So help me God", it was said in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: What are his full names?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: It's Masoba Khuntwana Hendrik van Rooyen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that you may not have to cover the entire ground that was covered by the previous applicant, except to the extent that he may have a version which might in some way be different from what the previous applicant has said.

MR KOOPEDI: May I take the Honourable Commission into my confidence, that we in fact discussed this matter with Advocate Steenkamp, my learned friend, and I did advise him that I do not intend repeating what is not necessary and most probably what one would do will be to deal with his personal details and then get to the events of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases.

Where do you stay?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I'm staying in Kutsaong, in Carltonville.

MR KOOPEDI: At the moment where are you?

MR VAN ROOYEN: At this time I'm in the Potchefstroom Prison.

MR KOOPEDI: Why are you at the prison, have you been convicted of any offence?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I was sentenced for two accounts of murder.

MR KOOPEDI: It appears you're battling Mr Chair?

Would you name the two deceased persons?

MR VAN ROOYEN: It was KK Nxaku and Sedisa.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?

MR KOOPEDI: I think we're having problems with the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now, the interpretation?

Is the interpretation coming through?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: We will proceed.

Now you say you have been convicted for two counts of murder, I had asked who are the two victims, who are the two people who died?

MR VAN ROOYEN: It's KK Nxaku and Sedisa.

MR KOOPEDI: Where and when were you convicted?

MR VAN ROOYEN: It was on the 19th of June in 1992 in Johannesburg Supreme Court in Pritchard Street.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you have applied for amnesty?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: For what offences have you applied for amnesty?

MR VAN ROOYEN: On these two accounts of murder.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the amnesty was applied for for the two murders referring to the KK Nxaku and the Sedisa matters?

MR VAN ROOYEN: That's correct Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you've heard what your co-applicant, Mr Mokoena has told this Honourable Committee inasfar as the background relating to the gangsters, is there anything you think you want to add to that?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, I would like to add something.

MR KOOPEDI: ...[indistinct] would you want to confirm what he said or perhaps deny it?

MR VAN ROOYEN: There is just one thing I want to add on what he has already said. I heard him - I want to tell them exactly who killed who.

MR KOOPEDI: My point now was in relation to the background on the gangsters which it's alleged that the two deceased persons belonged to. We will get to the stage where we speak about the actual killing of the two deceased. What we need to know is, on the background, on the events before perhaps the assault on your comrade, Mokome, is there anything that you want to add or bring to the attention of the Honourable Committee here?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, there is.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, please do that.

MR VAN ROOYEN: In 1989 I was not a student then, I was just a member of the youth in the township. On a Monday I saw children returning from school and Mokoena told me that one of their colleagues was stabbed by a gangster member. I asked him which gang was responsible for this and he told me about KK, Twala and Big Five's gang.

This gang was well-known in the township and the students said that this group must be hunted down and handed over to the police. The community of Kutsaong at large went out on this search but in vain, we never found them. We reported this matter to the police and it was just left with the police.

In 1991, the very same gang - I was with my fellow colleagues in the Interim Committee of the ANC Youth League there and Cassius Mahuma was the General Secretary and I was the Organiser Secretary. He told me that the very same gang robbed him and pointed at him with a gun.

At the very same year in August 1991, Matsaba's family were attacked by the very same gang and that is when a child died in this event.

In September before ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Please let the speaker slow down, we cannot get the interpretation clearly.

MR KOOPEDI: We've noted the interpreters comment, thank you.

Perhaps let's centre on the issues around your comrade Mokome, do you know what happened to him and if you can take us through that.

MR VAN ROOYEN: It was on a Saturday, I was with him, comrade Mokome and comrade Gustaff. We were in Block 8 at comrade Magadi's place. Comrade Mokome - it was about 6 o'clock in the evening, he told us that he had somewhere to go.

We asked to accompany him and he agreed because it was his friend's place and there was a party there and we went with comrade Mokome there. As we were sitting there there was this other group in this other room and there were some girls from the same section who were in the other room.

As we were sitting there this comrade went to see this friend of his who had invited us to the party, and when he came back he came back with three drinks and put them on the table and comrade Mokome who was stabbed, he left our table and joined this group of girls.

As he was sitting amongst these girls, Big Five and Malgas arrived, and when they got there they went straight through to talk to Mr Mokome. As they were talking to Mr Mokome, Big Five drew a knife. As he did that I stood, myself and Gustaff and approached, we approached Big Five and disarmed him, we took his knife from him and we wanted to know why he was doing this. He just said that comrade Mokome shouldn't talk to their girlfriends and comrade Mokome is a very forward person, he shouldn't talk to their girlfriends.

We took comrade Mokome away from them and let him join us at our table again. As he was sitting there these gang took these girls away. As we were sitting here in this party, comrade Boyki and comrade Steve van Rooyen came in and Mr Mokome told them about this incident that had just occurred.

It was about half an hour as we were sitting there, Mr Mokome told us that he had to go home and we let him go. He was with comrade Kati ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could you kindly go a little bit slower.

MR VAN ROOYEN: Comrade Mokome left with comrade Sekome and this was in Block 8 but we are staying in Block 7. Comrade Mokome left with Sekome to Block 7. We were still at the party that was being thrown by comrade Mokome's friend. Myself, comrade Steve and comrade Boyki and comrade Gustaff had remained. The four of us had remained in the party, comrade Mokome and Sekome had left to comrade Mokome's house.

As we were sitting there, comrade Sekome came back and when he arrived he told us about the attack of comrade Mokome. Having heard that we left to see where this happened. When we got there we found comrade Mokome covered with a blanket and he was in a pool of blood. I uncovered him to see how much injuries had he sustained. He wasn't saying anything, he was just lying in this pool of blood. We covered him again.

We were busy looking for a car and other comrades were there already. His family were looking for a car to take him to the hospital and we were standing by as comrades. We discussed this matter and the issue of this gang, that they have committed so many crimes in the township and in the section and all of these have been reported to the police but they are not taking any action, therefore it is better for us as comrades of the ANC Youth League and the comrades in Block 7, to go out and search for these criminal gangs so that we would hand them over to the community that would in turn hand them over to the police.

We got information that this gang was being accompanied by the two girls that Mokome was chatting to at the party. The one was a border at Mokome's house. We discussed this and we decided that we should find this lady and she should show us where this gang stays in the township.

We went to Joel's place and when we got there, Joel himself is the one who - when we entered Joel's yard we proceeded straight to the shack where Rebecca and her parents were staying. Joel is the one who knocked in that shack and Bafadile is the one who opened the door and explained exactly what happened and even asked her that we needed to buy Bafadile's help to go and show us where this gang stayed. It's her mother who opened the door and who Joel was talking to, and she gave us the permission to take her with.

We left with her and went to the tavern called: "White House" where they used to drink, and another tavern which is Lebitsos, when we got there, and when we got to the taxi rank we met, we found a kombi and comrade Steve asked the driver to help us but he can only help us until 11 o'clock because he knocks off.

He helped us, he took us with this girl and we went to a tavern called: "Blue Lagoon". When we got to the Blue Lagoon tavern we were told that this gang has just stabbed another comrade called Darkie, who was staying in the Xhosa section in the township, they have just stabbed him.

They started with comrade Darkie and that is when we decided or we saw that this gang is quite determined to terrorise all the comrades in the township. From the tavern we proceeded to Spurs Tavern and we found nobody there. We came back to search for this gang at their homes, their families and relatives, but we never found them.

On our way, still in this kombi, we were intimidated by BafAdile and told her that she will take full responsibility for comrade Mokome's death: "You'll be the one who will be arrested unless you help us or tell us". That is when she told us that these people when they are not here in Kutsaong they are in Bekkersdal, they've got a shack there in the X section.

We took her back home. We did nothing to her and even her mother was happy with her. Having taken her back home, we thanked the driver of the kombi and we went to Leboneng at the same night of the 7th and we had to discuss what to do further, as we got the information that these people, if they are not here they run to Bekkersdal because nobody seems to be able to arrest them. Therefore we must meet the following day at 8 o'clock in the morning and we should go and search for these people in Bekkersdal. Yes, we went separate ways to sleep there.

The following day I had to go with the Interim Committee of the ANC Youth League as we had a meeting that we had to attend in Gagiso in Krugersdorp. I did not go there because Gordon Mahuma who is the comrade's secretary, came to me and said that we had to go, but I told him exactly what happened yesterday. I told him what happened the previous night and what our intention, as the comrades of Block 7, have decided to do. We were going to catch those people and bring them to the community that will decide whether they hand them to the police or not.

I told comrade Mahuma to put in an apology for me in the meeting. He did so but he never told me what the response was of the committee. I went where the comrades had gathered and I found comrade Steven van Rooyen who was telling the other comrades that were not there the previous day, as to what happened.

On my arrival I told them that I've met comrade General Secretary, Gordon Mahuma and I told him everything that happened yesterday and our intentions as comrades of Block 7 and he will in turn report this to the Interim Committee when he meets. That is when we decided - as the comrade has already mentioned, we were between 30 and 35 in number, we decided to go to Bekkersdal and we could not all go, only 17 could go.

We were 12 ANC Youth League members and we had five young pioneers. That is when Joel Mokoena and Morupisi went to negotiate at the taxi rank two kombis which they came with but he told us that the drivers just wanted petrol ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can stop him about that because we've had that version. We've heard that so that is quite alright.

Just proceed further.

MR KOOPEDI: Like it has been indicated by the Chair, we have heard about the negotiations about the taxi and that 17 people left. Now if you could lead us to when you get to Bekkersdal, what happens when you get to Bekkersdal?

MR VAN ROOYEN: When we arrived at Bekkersdal, we went to Mandela Section. That is where I knew comrade Bazuka who was the President of the ANC Youth League at that time in Mandela Section.

At Bekkersdal we went straight to him with our two kombis. Comrade Boyki alighted from the kombi. Comrade Bazuka asked him: "What are you here for"?, then he explained to him that: "We are here in Bekkersdal because we are looking for gangsters who have committed a crime in our township, and we learnt that they escaped to your place". He asked us as to what kind of help he can give ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you skip those details considering that we've got them already?

MR KOOPEDI: We have travelled that path with the first applicant and basically that is why earlier on when I was trying to get you to confirm certain things, you know what he said. Now I believe you will agree that after leaving Bazuka's place people went to search and further that you went into two groups, do you agree with that, can you confirm that?

Now after being into two groups and you went searching for these people, what happened? In which group were you?

ADV DE JAGER: You could actually lead him. If you go too far we will object to leading questions but you could lead him in order to come to the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Especially where the issues that have already been - we've heard re-version already. You're putting it rightly as far as he is concerned: "There were two group, which group did you belong to"? Let's get that.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chair, I will take it from there.

Now there were these two groups, in one group we had the first applicant, Mr Mokoena, were you in the same group with him or in the other group?

MR VAN ROOYEN: In our group we were working on foot.

MR KOOPEDI: And were you in the same group with Mr Mokoena or were you with the other group?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I was in the same group with Mr Mokoena and Mokoena is the first applicant.

MR KOOPEDI: You were in the same group with Mokoena. Mokoena is the first applicant, Mr Chair.

Now when was the first time you saw the deceased people, the two deceased person, that is on that day, when did you see them, or did you see them at all?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I saw them at the time when we were in the veld when we were fighting and then I started to see who they were.

When we arrived there these people dispersed, then these two ran away to the veld. Steve and Boyki and myself, that's whilst we started to chase them and Steve was in front. Whilst we were chasing them they jumped the fence.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you started to give chase, did you know whom you were chasing?

MR VAN ROOYEN: When we started to chase them ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: That is when your group which included the first applicant, when you started to give chase, you personally did you know whom you were chasing or were you just following?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I knew which people we were chasing ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: Which means you had seen the people you were looking for, you knew that these were the people. Alright, now we've heard evidence that the chase went through the veld into a mine premises. Now when you got into the mine premises, could you tell the Commission what happened then and if you could try and restrict yourself to what you did.

MR VAN ROOYEN: When we arrived at the mine, those people started fighting. Comrade Steve and Joel were fighting them. Bafino drew a knife. I had a knife with me on my person and when he drew a knife I drew a knife. I tried to talk to him that: "We are not going to fight you, we are just coming to fetch you so that you can explain to us what happened yesterday". That is when he drew a knife and started attacking, and that's when I began to stab him.

MR KOOPEDI: Now who is Bafino?

MR VAN ROOYEN: ...(no English translation)

MR KOOPEDI: That's right. When the first applicant, Mokoena was involved with KK, you were involved with the other deceased person?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now this is what I think the Honourable Commission has not heard and would like to take you through that. Now when you got to Bafino inside these mine premises, did you speak to him at all?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, I did.

MR KOOPEDI: What did you say to him?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I said to him: "Bafino, we are not here to fight ...[inaudible] yesterday in the township". He said: "We are not going to listen to you" and then he drew a knife and I drew my knife also.

From there he approached me, he wanted to run away and then I stabbed him on the back of the shoulder. Gustaff was present at that time. Then he approached again, then I swerved away. I could see that this person was fighting and then I stabbed him again. After I stabbed him he fell on the ground with his knife, then we continued to stab him.

MR KOOPEDI: Now who, other than you and your co-applicant Morupisi, can you remember anyone else who was involved with this deceased?

MR VAN ROOYEN: The late comrade Tebogo was present.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. What did Tebogo do to the deceased?

MR VAN ROOYEN: He kicked him.

MR KOOPEDI: Now who else stabbed the deceased? We're talking about the second deceased.

MR VAN ROOYEN: The second deceased?

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, the one that you were involved with. Other than you, is there anyone else who stabbed him?

MR VAN ROOYEN: That's comrade Morupisi. ...[no English translation] which was owned by the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Give us that name again, comrade who also stabbed the deceased?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Comrade Morupisi, that is Gustaff.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Other than the two of you, did anyone else stab him?

MR VAN ROOYEN: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he present, this comrade Morupisi? Is he present, is one of the applicants or isn't he an applicant?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, he's among us, he is an applicant.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: Applicant number 5?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: What stopped the stabbing on the deceased, what stopped the stabbing and the assault, what made you to stop?

MR VAN ROOYEN: What made me to stop is when I saw that he was lying on the ground, therefore we stopped stabbing. That is the reason why we stopped, because he was on the ground.

MR KOOPEDI: What happened thereafter?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Other comrades arrived and saw them lying, then be boarded our kombis and others went on foot because we went to the other kombi which was parked on the other side, then we went back to the township.

In the evening, as the organisation's secretary, I was supposed to report to the Committee and on Monday we reported to the General Secretary about what happened in Bekkersdal.

MR KOOPEDI: Who is this secretary that you talk about?

MR VAN ROOYEN: That is Mr Mahuma.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. You have, like you co-applicant, the first applicant, mentioned one Mr Nzeku and Mr Ramagotedi and on a section where you are asked whether any orders were given, now I would like to take you through that. Were you given any orders by anyone to go and search for these people or even kill them?

MR VAN ROOYEN: To tell the truth, comrade Nzeku and comrade Ramagotedi never gave us orders, we were given those mandates by the comrades.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now why did you mention their names, why did you refer to them?

MR VAN ROOYEN: The reason for me to mention those two names is because I wanted them to come and tell the Commission about the situation which prevailed in our area, which affected our youth, the situation which we lived under in our area during that time and as to whether they know about this incident. That is why I mentioned their names in my application.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now your actions, the ones for which you are applying for amnesty, do you consider that as having been motivated by a political objective?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, they are politically motivated.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you explain why you think this was politically motivated?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Because this gang, it was not the first time they did those things, to stab people, to rob people and to rape. Because of those reasons which we stated in there, those were the reasons which influenced us to the extent that we came to a point where we killed those people because they had a gun.

MR KOOPEDI: Now is there anything that you have not told this Honourable Committee, in relation to this matter? Have you disclosed all the truth in this matter?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I haven't left out any bit of the truth about this incident.

MR KOOPEDI: Other than what we have asked you and perhaps what the fist applicant has said, is there anything that you would wish to bring to the attention of this Honourable Committee or say to the Committee?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes. Firstly what I want to say is that I want to thank the Committee of the TRC to give me this opportunity to state before this Committee. Mainly members of the families, friends and the community at large, that what I did is a mistake. I want to thank this Committee, if it wasn't because of this Committee what I'm saying today could not have been known.

To this Committee I want to thank them and together with the parent of Bafino and KK, I want to ask them for forgiveness because it was not my intention to do what I did with their children even though I understand their pain.

MR KOOPEDI: That will be the case for the applicant for now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the adjournment now and resume at 2 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: May he reminded that he is still under oath.

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, do I understand you correctly, that the killing of the deceased was a decision made among yourselves, you did have any orders to do so at all?

MR VAN ROOYEN: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] any decision taken to kill.

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the situation developed which resulted in the stabbing or the killing, without there being any formal decision to do so.

MR STEENKAMP: I'll leave it at that Sir.

MR VAN ROOYEN: May we proceed?

MR STEENKAMP: Can you maybe explain to the Committee, how do you link or how can you link your actions to any kind of political motive? Is it possible to do that, can you explain to us?

MR VAN ROOYEN: What we did was political because this gang that we are talking about and to which these two people belonged, did atrocities to the community. As I've already said, I was an Organising Secretary of the Youth League, I knew these people. I knew them because of their horrible deeds that I've already mentioned in front of the TRC.

MR STEENKAMP: Than I'm also asked to ask you, can you tell the Committee what happened to the bodies of the deceased? Did you just leave them there or what happened to them, do you know?

MR VAN ROOYEN: We left them there where we stabbed them.

MR STEENKAMP: Would you agree with applicant number 1 that this attack or killing that you embarked on was an act of self-defence?

MR VAN ROOYEN: According to me this was not done for revenge but to defend ourselves because these people were fighting but our intention was to catch them.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just give me the proper names or can you indicate to us who exactly was involved in the killing of the first deceased and who exactly was involved in the killing of the second deceased?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Deceased number 1 - I'm the one who killed deceased number 2, but deceased number 1 was comrade Steve and the comrade who has just spoken here and comrade Maumakwe who had a role in his death. As I've already said, I was busy with Bafino, the second one, myself and comrade Maumakwe.

MR STEENKAMP: And when you reported - did you report this back to the ANC Youth League?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As I've already said, on Sunday I was supposed to report back as the Organising Secretary but I could not because the committee was not back from the meeting, therefore I reported to the comrade's secretary on Monday as to what happened in Bekkersdal.

MR STEENKAMP: And what was his reaction?

MR VAN ROOYEN: He told us that what we have done is an offence and I told him that I do agree with him because we were to catch these people, not kill them.

MR STEENKAMP: Did he indicate to you whether or not this action which you committed or the deed which you committed was not within the framework of the ANC Youth League's police, or guidelines or mandate?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As I've already said, I was the Organising Secretary of the ANC Youth League, the Interim Committee in the township. According to the constitution we were not allowed to kill, therefore that is why I came here today to say that I made a mistake and we committed an offence, it was not the wish of the organisation to kill.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

ADV DE JAGER: Why was Mr Mokome attacked by the gang? I'm going back to his home or wherever he was going at that stage.

MR VAN ROOYEN: I don't know why they attacked him, but what I heard about this gang is that they were terrorising youth in the township that were against their deeds and as the organisation members. I think that is why they stabbed him.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't they earlier that evening have an argument with him about girls?

MR VAN ROOYEN: This very same thug, he did say that this gentleman should not talk to his girlfriend. We didn't argue with him, we just disarmed him, took his knife, and then they went away.

ADV DE JAGER: And then it seems as though they had been waiting for Mr Mokome to come out, and attack him on his way home, after leaving?

MR VAN ROOYEN: What I know is, we took their knife in Block A and comrade Mokome was stabbed in our Block 7. As to whether they were lying in wait for him, that I'm not sure of.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he at any stage tell you why they attacked him?

MR VAN ROOYEN: What he just said to me is that they said he is a comrade and he is interfering with their duties in the township, of robbing spaza shops and terrorising everybody.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are excused, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: (sworn states)

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry, the application of this applicant can be found on page 24 to 33 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: May we proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do go ahead.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chair.

You have heard the evidence of two of your co-applicants inasfar as the background leading to the death of the two deceased persons, do you confirm that?

MR MAUMAKWE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let us take this Honourable Committee through what you did on that day. We agree that you went to Bekkersdal with the group, is that correct?

Now when you got to Bekkersdal and there were two groups, is it correct that you were in the one group which consisted of the first two applicants and others?

MR MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when was it when you first saw the two deceased on that day? At what stage did you see them?

MR MAUMAKWE: ...[no English translation]

MR KOOPEDI: The deceased persons.

MR MAUMAKWE: I began to see them for the first time where we stabbed them, that was for the first time I saw them.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now, do you remember that from the X section there was a chase through a veld and into the mine premises?

MR MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when this chase was ensuing, where were you?

MR MAUMAKWE: I was together with Morupisi at the back.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's go into the mine premises, what happened when you arrived in the mine?

MR MAUMAKWE: When they entered the mine premises I saw them stopping and started fighting with comrade Boyki, comrade Steve, comrade Kontwani(?).

MR KOOPEDI: And when you saw them starting to fight, what did you do?

MR MAUMAKWE: I went there to help comrade Boyki to fight KK, whilst comrade Mela(?) went to fight ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not audible enough.

MR MAUMAKWE: When I arrived I helped comrade Steve and Boyki to fight KK whilst comrade Chaba was fighting comrade Bafino. I stabbed him and I kicked him while Steve was stabbing also and kicking.

MR KOOPEDI: With what did you stab him?

MR MAUMAKWE: I stabbed him with a fish knife.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you get this knife? Were you armed with it all along?

MR MAUMAKWE: Whilst we were together before we went to Bekkersdal, as I was a member of the SDU and the ANC Youth League, I went home to fetch this fish knife so that I would be able to defend myself against these criminals.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you use any other weapon other than the knife?

MR MAUMAKWE: No, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you tell the Honourable Committee here who else participated on what we have now termed the second deceased, Bafino? Who was involved in Bafino, yourself and who?

MR MAUMAKWE: I did not watch, I saw them fighting him but I did not see who stabbed him and kicked him before I came.

MR KOOPEDI: My apologies, you were involved with the first deceased and not the second deceased, KK?

MR MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's concentrate on KK. Other than yourself, who else was involved with KK?

MR MAUMAKWE: It was Steve and Boyki.

MR KOOPEDI: And no other persons?

MR MAUMAKWE: Tebogo came later, after we had finished with him but he started to kick KK.

MR KOOPEDI: Tebogo is the deceased person, the person who we've been told died?

MR MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now it is of paramount importance to this Honourable Committee to understand the political motivation you had when you killed the deceased people. Will you tell the Committee what political motive you had?

MR MAUMAKWE: The political motivation that we had is that those people were terrorising the community and they were robbing the community, they were assaulting the youth which was staying in the location and that is why we took steps as member of the ANC Youth League, so that we will be able to resolve this problem because when we lay charges against these people, the police would not take steps. That is why we assembled and discussed this problem and the solutions to this problem, until we decided to organise kombis so that those should go to Bekkersdal.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, did you have anything personal to gain by killing these people?

MR MAUMAKWE: Pardon?

MR KOOPEDI: ...[inaudible]

MR MAUMAKWE: No, Sir, I didn't have any personal gain.

MR KOOPEDI: To your recollection, have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth, have you fully disclosed the facts of that day?

MR MAUMAKWE: I would say that because I've already said is what has been said by the previous two applicants, that is Mokoena and van Rooyen.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Other than what we've discussed, is there anything that you think we've left behind and is there anything that you would want to add?

MR MAUMAKWE: No, Sir, I have nothing to add. I think I've said a mouthful and all points which I wanted to tell this Committee.

MR KOOPEDI: You mentioned something earlier to me about an apology, do you recall that?

MR MAUMAKWE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Could you take this Honourable Committee into your confidence about what you said re the apologies?

MR MAUMAKWE: I want this community - I'm apologising before this Committee and together with the members of the family of the deceased, their friends, that they should understand why they were killed. I'm asking for forgiveness before this Committee. I will not repeat this kind of an incident.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chair, that will be the case for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Sir, if I look at your amnesty application, specifically at page 27, and I read there from the second paragraph, I'll just read it to you to refresh your memory:

Is this why you killed both the deceased?

MR MAUMAKWE: I did not kill them because they started or they did what they did, we did that because of their criminal activities in the township. That is the reason why we ended up killing these two people.

MR STEENKAMP: The last question, the statements of Nzeku and Mr Ramagotedi indicated that your actions were purely criminal and no political motive was involved, would you agree to that? What is your submission in this regard?

MR MAUMAKWE: I dispute that. I dispute what they are saying. I agree with them when they are saying they did not give us the orders. It is ourselves who started to discuss this issue and try to resolve this problem and how we should go to Bekkersdal.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Were any of these thugs ever arrested and brought before court, for instance for rape or robbery?

MR MAUMAKWE: No, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: I understood the first applicant to say that one of their members were in jail for some offence, for rape?

MR MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So how can you then say nobody was arrested, here we had one being arrested and being in jail?

MR MAUMAKWE: I did not say that.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but did you know that he was arrested for rape and sentenced to jail?

MR MAUMAKWE: Yes, I knew.

ADV DE JAGER: What was his name?

MR MAUMAKWE: That is Bafino Sedisa.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he a leader of the gang or only an ordinary member?

MR MAUMAKWE: I don't know their leader, I knew them only as members of that gang.

ADV DE JAGER: Anybody else that you know of that has been arrested, of the gang?

MR MAUMAKWE: I only know Bafino, I don't as to whether others were detained or arrested because of their activities.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that to your knowledge, Bafino Sedisa had been convicted for having raped a girl?

MR MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the same Bafino Sedisa who is the second deceased in this matter?

MR MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So had he not been sent to jail for the rape?

MR MAUMAKWE: He went to jail but I did not know the duration of his sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what year it was in which he had been sentenced?

MR MAUMAKWE: I don't remember Sir.

MS GCABASHE: Was this the first time you actually followed through with trying to catch perpetrators and take them to the police? I know you had reported incidents before but was this the first time you actually decided to actually go and look for these people and take them to the community?

MR MAUMAKWE: You mean to them? Yes, it was the first time, when we started to give chase and tried to catch them. We did try to catch the members of the Kadafi gang who stabbed one member of the young pioneers. We caught them and took them to the police.

MS GCABASHE: So previously you had been trying to co-operate by taking people to the police and it just didn't work, nothing was done?

MR MAUMAKWE: You mean the deceased?

MS GCABASHE: The gangsters, including the deceased but the other gangsters, people who went with these chaps?

MR MAUMAKWE: Yes, that is correct. You know it's not for the first time we tried to catch them in the township. We were able to catch other member who have raped, and we handed them over to the police but they did not stay long in the cells, we saw them around again in the township. We stopped there, we didn't continue with our effort to catch them again because we would hand them to the police and the police would release them.

MS GCABASHE: What were you hoping the community would do with these people, had you been able to bring them back?

MR MAUMAKWE: We wanted them to account for their parents so that they will be known, their identity would be known to the parents of those who were their victims.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Your full names please?

MR VAN ROOYEN: My name is Stephen Lebogang van Rooyen.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand to take the oath.

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: (sworn states)

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the application is on page 35 to 43.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chair.

You have heard the evidence of three of your - excuse me, I'm having a bad sound feedback, I'm not sure what is wrong.

You've listened to the evidence of three of your co-applicants inasfar as the background leading to the events that culminated in the death of the two deceased persons, do you confirm that?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, I do.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's got to Bekkersdal. When you got to Bekkersdal you separated yourselves into two groups, there was a group in which the first applicant was in, I would like you to tell this Committee in which group you were.

MR VAN ROOYEN: I was in the first group.

MR KOOPEDI: In the first group, that is the group that was with the first applicant, is that correct?

MR VAN ROOYEN: That's correct Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's get to the mine premises. When you got to the mine premises, where were the two deceased persons, where were they standing in relation to you as you come into the premises?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As we were chasing them, myself and comrade Lacosta and comrade Masoba in front. We told them to stop because: "We are not here to fight but we've just come to take you back to the community of Kutsaong, so that you should account for what you have done".

As I was in front, they pretended to stop, the deceased and KK took out a firearm and he attempted to shoot me. I heard one of the comrades shouting to be careful because he had a gun and when I looked at him he had pointed at me with the gun and I swerved, but the firearm jammed. When that happened I took a stone and hit him with that on his head and he fell and the firearm fell as well.

When the firearm fell we started stoning him. Comrade Lacosta wanted to go for the firearm but the deceased took out a jungle knife and when he did that we started stoning him. Comrade Didi had already arrived and had started stabbing him.

I picked up an iron rod in the nearby, in that same camp, and started hitting him with it and the other comrades started stabbing him. In the nearby it was comrade Chaba who was busy arguing with one of the deceased, being Bafino Sedisa.

As we were busy, I'm not sure as to what happened eventually. Comrade Gustaff Morupisi came with comrade Didi. When they arrived, Gustaff Morupisi assisted comrade Chaba to find Bafino. There I don't know who did what in killing comrade Bafino but I know that comrade Tebogo came to assist comrade Chaba. I didn't see exactly what happened as I was also very busy fighting the late KK.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, can you tell this Honourable Committee what could have been your political motive, if you had any, to attack these people, the two deceased?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As the comrades have already indicated about the criminal offences that were being committed mainly by these gangsters in the township, the comrades finally decided that the things that were happening in the township due to this group that was against the community, was no longer acceptable and the ANC was not - what they did was not acceptable by the community and the ANC, thus the comrades decided to go out and search for the deceased.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, to your recollection, have you told this Honourable Committee everything that you know in relation to this incident?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As I've already said, that is the absolute truth that I've presented in front of this Commission.

MR KOOPEDI: Is there anything that you would want to add?

MR VAN ROOYEN: There's nothing further to add Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chair, that will be the case for this applicant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: After you hit KK with the iron rod, did you do anything further, did you do anything else to him?

MR VAN ROOYEN: After having hit him with the rod, because he was still fighting back and the situation that was prevailing at that time, I continued hitting him with the iron rod constantly as we were fighting with him.

CHAIRPERSON: You were fighting with him and he wasn't fighting with you because there were three of you or four of you, he was alone, you had taken away his knife so he wasn't fighting?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As I've already explained, the deceased, I tried to talk to him but to show that he was keen to fight he took out his firearm and thus I say that he was fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: I know you said he was fighting because he pulled out his firearm and you hit him on the head because his firearm wouldn't go off. There was no fight left in the man after that, was there fight left in him?

MR VAN ROOYEN: He had the courage to fight ...[indistinct] because he drew a knife thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on. You took his knife away from him and then ...[intervention]

MR VAN ROOYEN: His knife fell and comrade Mokoena picked it up.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage did you decide to stop hitting this man?

MR VAN ROOYEN: When he could not fight back I stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: Explain to me how he fought. After his knife was taken away from him, what did he do to show that he was fighting?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As I've already explained, after having hit him with the stone he drew a jungle knife and that is when I hit him with the iron rod. When I hit him, the comrades were already stabbing him and that is when he was fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he fighting when he was being stabbed by the comrades, what was he doing?

MR VAN ROOYEN: He tried to stab back with the jungle knife.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that. I'm talking about the time when they took his knife away from him.

MR VAN ROOYEN: He had already fallen down and we had stabbed him already, that is when we left him, after having stabbed him.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: What happened to his gun?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Comrade Mokoena picked it up and on our way back ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Yes? Did he take it home?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, we did.

ADV DE JAGER: And his knife, the jungle knife?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I don't know what happened to it because I know comrade Lacosta was using it to stab him.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, comrade Lacosta, is that Mr Mokoena?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Yes, Sir, Mr Mokoena.

CHAIRPERSON: Please correct that, this is the first time I hear this name. Lacosta, is it the same person as the first applicant?

MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So just to avoid confusion, instead of using the word: "Lacosta", will we say that in this case the knife was taken away by Mokoena?

MR VAN ROOYEN: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] says KK's gun was picked up by Mokoena, he took it home. "And what happened to the knife"? He says: "I don't know, but I saw Lacosta stabbing him with a knife", to create an impression it was two different people.

MR VAN ROOYEN: We are talking about the same person Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So why do you use two different names?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As he is my friend I am used to calling him Lacosta.

MS GCABASHE: Because you've also used Didi which is a name we are not familiar with, you'd better tell us who that is. Earlier on you used Lacosta, you used ...[intervention]

MR VAN ROOYEN: That is Mr Maumakwe, Didi. Maumakwe is Didi.

MS GCABASHE: Chaba?

MR VAN ROOYEN: That is Hendrik van Rooyen, Chaba.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell Chaba.

MS GCABASHE: Chaba Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Who is he?

MS GCABASHE: Hendrik van Rooyen.

ADV DE JAGER: And is that the same person as Masoba or who is Hendrik van Rooyen?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Masoba is Hendrik van Rooyen.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, would you agree with me that there was no real reason for Mr Mokoena to stab and subsequently kill the deceased, because he was totally unarmed? Do you agree with me?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I would disagree with you because the deceased tried two times to fight back.

MR STEENKAMP: I got the distinct impression that after his gun was taken away the knife was taken away and then he was stabbed, or am I wrong?

MR VAN ROOYEN: When he fell for the second time he could not fight back and we were finishing off fighting with him, we left him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer the question please. I think it is being suggested to you that after the deceased's knife was taken away from him, what was the need to stab him?

MR VAN ROOYEN: The situation that prevailed at that time led to what happened to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What situation was it?

MR VAN ROOYEN: A fight situation.

CHAIRPERSON: You know you use the word fight, please. The word fight means two people are engaged in fighting. When one man's knife is taken away from him he is no longer fighting.

MR VAN ROOYEN: The situations that were prevailing at that time were such that we were angry and enraged and that is why I'm saying there was a fight going on because we were enraged.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, can I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, was Mr Mokoena also armed with his own knife or did he use the deceased's knife, to kill and stab the deceased, can you remember?

MR VAN ROOYEN: What I remember, he had it right from the township but I saw him taking the deceased's knife.

MR STEENKAMP: And stabbing the deceased with his own knife, or is that wrong?

MR VAN ROOYEN: That's correct Sir.

MR STEENKAMP: In other words the deceased was killed and stabbed with his own knife by the first applicant, while he was totally unarmed? Do you understand the question?

MR VAN ROOYEN: The deceased was stabbed by his own knife and the iron rod and also stabbed by comrade Maumakwe's knife.

MR STEENKAMP: Now my real question is, why was it necessary for all of you, after the deceased was unarmed, to still continue to kill him, why was it necessary?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As to whether he was dead when we left him I was not sure, but what I know is we injured him and he was hit many a times. This did not last but as soon as we took his armoury from him we used it on him and we left him there.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you want to kill him?

MR VAN ROOYEN: That was not our aim.

MR STEENKAMP: Except the weapon and the knife that was taken, was anything else taken from any of the deceased? Was money taken, was clothing or any personal belongings taken from them?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Not as far as I can recall, I saw nothing of the sort happening. I didn't see any money or watches taken from him.

MR STEENKAMP: Were they body-searched by any of you after they were killed, before you left?

MR VAN ROOYEN: No, I never saw that, I saw nobody searching him.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, just clarify for the Committee and for me as well, can you explain to me how this action, the killing of both the deceased, how can you describe that killing as being with a political motive? Can you explain that to me?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As other comrades have testified, they have already explained. I would explain again and emphasise what they have emphasised. Because the township was under seige by these criminals, the community was not able to stand on its own to fight. We as the youth members of the ANC Youth League came to an agreement that we should try to expunge criminal activity from the township and hand them over to the police so that they will be brought before the community and account for their actions.

MR STEENKAMP: Then lastly, isn't it true that you actually engaged in the same actions as the other criminal people in the area, by killing both the deceased?

MR VAN ROOYEN: As I've already explained, our intention to go and look for the deceased was not to kill them but to catch them and bring them before the community and the community would make them account and hand them over to the police, because what we did was not the same as what they did.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: If that was your intention, why then when he was lying helpless on the ground didn't you take him, hand him over to the community and thereafter to the police?

MR VAN ROOYEN: In terms of my explanation, the deceased were injured to an extent that we thought that we should take them to the kombis, what is left is for the police to come and detain us, that is why we decided to leave them there. We saw that the intentions which we came there with we did not accomplish.

ADV DE JAGER: You mentioned it before, in the end you killed them because you became very angry with them and were enraged and that was the real reason why you didn't arrest them but killed them.

MR VAN ROOYEN: I would ...[indistinct] say that because the deceased were already injured. If we took them to the kombis we were inviting the police.

ADV DE JAGER: So isn't it then true that you didn't take them to the police because you were afraid that you yourselves would be arrested, and it was in your own interest then not to take them to the police?

MR VAN ROOYEN: The way the situation was, if we took them to the police we were going to be detained and then we were afraid to be arrested.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall precisely what you saw insofar as the attack on the second deceased was concerned, step by step?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I did not see what happened to the second deceased, he was fighting together with the other three comrades. They were in a struggle, fighting. Because I was not concentrating on what was happening to the second one, I was concentrating on KK, I did not know or see what happened to Bafino.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't even know whether he was armed?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I did not see well because he was struggling with comrade Chaba and comrade Chaba was armed with a knife, so therefore it shows that he was also armed.

CHAIRPERSON: How did he die?

MR VAN ROOYEN: I don't have the knowledge how he died, we just left them there being injured.

CHAIRPERSON: You know now, after having been through the trail and after having been with your colleagues you must know now how he died?

MR VAN ROOYEN: After we stabbed him the police told us that he died because of multiple ...[indistinct] injuries.

CHAIRPERSON: What has happened to the rest of the gang?

MR VAN ROOYEN: Do you mean in Bekkersdal or in our township?

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about this particular gang, whether it was in Bekkersdal or in the township, the gang that was terrorising the community according to you. What happened to that gang?

MR VAN ROOYEN: After the incident of this one, I don't have knowledge because I was detained, after the deceased were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, the next application is on page 44 till 59.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names please?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sit down.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you are presently serving a prison sentence and are housed at the Potchefstroom prison?

MR MORUPISI: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: You've had the benefit of listening to your co-applicants' evidence, do you confirm what they said inasfar as the background leading to the death of the two deceased persons?

MR MORUPISI: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, let us go to the mine premises at Bekkersdal, is it correct that you were present also?

MR MORUPISI: I was present Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now can you tell this Honourable Committee what you found when you got into the yard and what you did?

MR MORUPISI: We chased them right towards the mine. In front was Steven van Rooyen and Joel Mokoena and Hendrik van Rooyen. When I arrived there they had already started fighting and I went to Chaba to help him, who was fighting with KK and both drew their knives.

He tried to fight until Chaba was able to stab him and then when he tried to stab Chaba I kicked him and then he stabbed him again until he couldn't fight.

MR KOOPEDI: Who is Chaba, for the benefit of the Honourable Committee?

MR MORUPISI: That is Hendrik van Rooyen.

MR KOOPEDI: Honourable Chairperson, you will note that we have many names but we are trying very hard to limit the use of other names.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.

Now on this deceased person, the one that you were involved with, how many of you were there? How many of you were fighting or assaulting him?

MR MORUPISI: Whilst we continued Tebogo arrived and we became three. We kicked until we say that he was not fighting anymore.

MR KOOPEDI: Now his knife, that is the deceased's knife, what happened to it?

MR MORUPISI: After we stabbed him we took it.

MR KOOPEDI: Now he ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You say: "We stabbed him", how many of you stabbed him with that particular knife?

MR MORUPISI: Those who stabbed him, we were two.

CHAIRPERSON: How many stabbed him with that particular knife belonging to KK?

MR MORUPISI: I had my own knife and Chaba had his own knife and he was fighting with his own knife. We took his knife after we finished with him.

MR KOOPEDI: It is your evidence before this Committee that you did not disarm him first, you fought with him and it was only after he had fell down that one of you took his knife?

MR MORUPISI: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the act at the mine premises, what political motivation can you attribute to that?

MR MORUPISI: Can you repeat your question again?

MR KOOPEDI: The attack on this deceased person, can you attribute any political motive or objective to it?

MR MORUPISI: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And what is that?

MR MORUPISI: Our intention was not to kill these people, it was to take these people and bring them back to the community where they stayed because they were not staying in Bekkersdal, they were staying in Carltonville.

After they had done their criminal act they ran to Burgersdorp and we went there to chase them because we got the information and we wanted to bring them back to our township in Carltonville. Our intention never materialised because those people were armed, then we started fighting with them.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now inasfar as you can recollect, is there anything that you have not brought to the attention of this Committee? Have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth?

MR MORUPISI: All has been said by my fellow applicants and then I've already said my bit and that is all.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now just to wrap up, is there anything that you would want to say to the Honourable Committee?

MR MORUPISI: Sorry, I can't understand you.

MR KOOPEDI: I will lead you to it. When we spoke before we started this morning, there was something mentioned to me about forgiveness, do you remember that?

MR MORUPISI: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you say that yourself and tell this Honourable Committee about what forgiveness you were talking about?

MR MORUPISI: Firstly, I thank the Committee for giving me this opportunity to state my case about what I've done together with my comrades. We were compelled by the situation. I'm directing this mainly to the families of the deceased and together with their friends. We did not do a good thing and that is why I am before this Committee to ask for forgiveness.

MR KOOPEDI: Chair, that will be this applicants case for now.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR STEENKAMP: Just two questions Mr Chairman.

Sir, we've hear how you kicked the deceased, how you attacked him with an iron bar and how you stabbed him until he wasn't moving anymore and you are saying today your intention was not to kill him, are you still sticking to that version?

MR MORUPISI: I don't know whether you are talking about the first deceased or the second deceased.

MR STEENKAMP: Both of them.

MR MORUPISI: I'll put it this way, our intention to go to Bekkersdal was disturbed after he drew a gun and drew the knife, that is when we started to fight until we were able to injure them.

MR STEENKAMP: And them maybe, please help me if I'm wrong, but it sounded to me that your version about the stabbing is totally the opposite to what the previous applicant testified. He testified that the first deceased was killed with his own knife and the stabbing only started when his knife was taken from him. You indicated now he was only stabbed with his own knife after or during the assault or the fight with him ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: He's indicating he wasn't stabbed with his own knife, he was stabbed with the persons who went to arrest him, his co-applicants had their own knives.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.

MR STEENKAMP: If I'm wrong I'm ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] clear.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you clear - sorry, Mr Chairman.

Can you clear that up? As I understood the previous applicant, he testified that after the deceased's knife was taken from him he was basically stabbed with his own knife, do you agree with that?

MR MORUPISI: Whilst they were fighting there I was not present, on the first applicant, on the first deceased. I was on Bafino. I saw later, after they had finished.

MR STEENKAMP: I know you were not present at the killing of first deceased but you were present at the scene, and on your own version you gave us an account of what you saw, didn't you see anything that happened to the first deceased at all or what exactly did you see?

MR MORUPISI: I saw him at the time whilst he was still fighting with Steven and Joel. I was concentrating on Bafino, I didn't see what happened later on the first deceased. I saw him lying on the ground.

MR STEENKAMP: Was anything taken from any of the deceased of the fighting stopped or after they were killed?

MR MORUPISI: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell us what that was?

MR MORUPISI: That is a jungle knife.

MR STEENKAMP: Anything else that was taken?

MR MORUPISI: On the first one we took a gun and a knife and on the second one, when he fell on the ground we took his knife.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know what happened to the gun and the knife? Was it destroyed, what happened to it?

MR MORUPISI: The gun was taken by Joel and he gave it to a certain comrade, I don't know what happened to it later.

MR STEENKAMP: Why was that done, was it done in an attempt to cover up the scene or to move the evidence from the scene, why was that done?

MR MORUPISI: We were not trying to destroy the evidence, we took them with us.

MR STEENKAMP: But why Sir, why was there a reason to do so?

MR MORUPISI: We just ended up taking them with us.

MR STEENKAMP: But you can't give an explanation for that?

MR MORUPISI: No, Sir.

MR STEENKAMP: So then the question I've asked the other applicants, can you explain to the Committee what you understand about the political motive, seen in the context of this incident?

MR MORUPISI: May you repeat your question Sir?

MR STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me what was the political motive for the killing of both the deceased? Do you understand the question Sir?

MR MORUPISI: Firstly we wanted to stop crime in our township, we wanted to establish peace in our township. We wanted everybody to come forward so that we would be able to run the affairs of the ANC Youth League the way it is acceptable, so that we will be able to have anything which we did not have before.

MR STEENKAMP: And by killing both the deceased, that was the way to do it? Do I understand you correctly?

MR MORUPISI: Politics don't allow us to kill. We did not want to achieve our political objective by killing, it happened accidentally because of the situation which we were in.

MR STEENKAMP: My last question to you Sir is that clearly, at least that's the way I understand it, at least deceased number 1 was killed while he was totally unarmed, he actually tried to get away from his pursuers who chased him, hunted him down, unarmed him and then killed him. Is that what happened?

MR MORUPISI: No.

MR STEENKAMP: Why are you saying: "No", can you explain that to us?

MR MORUPISI: Yes, we chased after them when they were running away. Whilst I was still at the back I saw them stopping. After that I saw them start fighting.

When I arrived there Bafino and Chaba drew knives and started fighting. I was helping comrade Chaba up to the time we started to stab him and then when he fell on the ground we started kicking him and then we took his knife and left him there because he was injured.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I may not have taken your evidence down correctly, I'm not too clear whether you were engaged in the attack on the first deceased or on Bafino. I get the impression that you joined the group that attacked the first deceased and at the same time I find you saying that you were with Bafino when he was attacked. Which is the position?

MR MORUPISI: I was fighting with Bafino. I never got involved with the first deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you armed with a knife?

MR MORUPISI: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else was with you in the attack on Bafino?

MR MORUPISI: It was myself and Hendrik van Rooyen and Tebogo came afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: There was some evidence that Hendrik van Rooyen was engaged in the attack of the first deceased, is that not correct?

MR MORUPISI: That's not correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. So now you and Hendrik van Rooyen were joined by who?

MR MORUPISI: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: You and Hendrik van Rooyen and who was the third person?

MR MORUPISI: It's Tebogo.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he known by any other name?

MR MORUPISI: That is the only name we know, Tebogo.

CHAIRPERSON: And how were Tebogo and Hendrik armed?

MR MORUPISI: Hendrik had a knife, I also had a knife and Tebogo had no knife, he just stoned him and kicked him.

MS GCABASHE: The evidence is that Tebogo is late, he passed away, what happened to him?

MR MORUPISI: I don't know, he died in prison. Oh, he died whilst we were in prison, I don't know what happened to him.

MS GCABASHE: So he was arrested with you and he died in prison?

MR MORUPISI: No, he was never arrested.

MS GCABASHE: He wasn't arrested for this particular incident?

MR MORUPISI: No, he was never arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Tebogo died while they were in prison.

MS GCABASHE: Oh, thank you.

Then just one other question. On page 54 in your application, about seven lines from the bottom you say:

Now what evidence did you have of this?

MR MORUPISI: I will try and explain it in this way. Mostly the crimes that occurred in the community and among the comrades who reported at the police station but the culprits were never arrested, thus convinced me that the policemen befriended these people.

MS GCABASHE: You have no other evidence?

MR MORUPISI: No, Sir.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: You went there, all of you were armed when you left Carltonville?

MR MORUPISI: Some were armed, some were not.

ADV DE JAGER: Well the present applicants, your co-applicants here, were they all armed?

MR MORUPISI: That's correct Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you take arms with you?

MR MORUPISI: We know the kind of people we are dealing with, they stab and kill, thus we wanted to be able to defend ourselves in case anything forced us to.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes. So beforehand you knew that you should expect a fight with them?

MR MORUPISI: We never thought of that.

ADV DE JAGER: No but that was the reason why you took your weapons with you, because you knew they were gangsters and they would resist, isn't that so?

MR MORUPISI: We were armed in case they fight back, with the intention to protect ourselves.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes. And that's exactly what happened, they indeed fought back.

MR MORUPISI: Yes, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: So you weren't surprised when they fought back?

MR MORUPISI: Yes, we were not surprised because we know their activities.

ADV DE JAGER: Now how did you plan to re-act on their resistance?

MR MORUPISI: We were going to defend ourselves in response to their behaviour.

ADV DE JAGER: And if you could manage to overwhelm them after resistance you will bring them back to Carltonville?

MR MORUPISI: Yes, we believed that if they had not drawn the firearm we would have brought them back.

ADV DE JAGER: And the reason why you then didn't bring them back is because the one started drawing the firearm?

MR MORUPISI: That's correct Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you then come to a decision to kill them because he drew the firearm?

MR MORUPISI: Our intention was not to kill them.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any other?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, there is a sixth applicant here ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, it is not and I wanted to say that I'm not going to be able to deal with him now, although it appears that it should be my responsibility.

From the evidence that has been brought before your Honourable selves, it has struck me that it would only be proper

to sum up by calling a witness, Cassius Gordon Mahuma. I've tried to get this witness and I'm advised that he is at work somewhere.

If I will be permitted by this Committee I will ask for an adjournment and that we lead the evidence of just this only witness tomorrow and perhaps give summing up argument. As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the prospects of him coming?

MR KOOPEDI: Well ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What are the prospects, does he know that you are looking for him?

MR KOOPEDI: For now he doesn't know because we tried to send someone who has not come back but I am advised he works in this area, he lives in Kutsaong township and I have a number of people who have undertaken to try and find him and get him here tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Steenkamp, is there anything you wish to say on that request?

MR STEENKAMP: I've got nothing to say on that request Mr Chairman. I was not aware of the witness but from my side I will also assist wherever possible to get the witness here and make sure that we are ready by tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you proposing to call any witnesses?

MR STEENKAMP: I'm not calling any witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will stand this matter down at your request and can we make an earlier beginning than we did yesterday?

MR KOOPEDI: I suppose the Chair wanted to say earlier than we did today?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: I hope that the prison authorities are sitting in and are listening because our main delay was them getting the applicants here. I will talk to my learned friend and we will try and emphasise the need to have the applicants come here earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] present here?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: In charge of the prisoners?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the prison authorities actually are here. I would request them to just come forward quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I speak to the person who is in command? Thank you.

What is your name please?

SERGEANT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant?

SERGEANT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: You are from Potchefstroom?

SERGEANT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Are the applicants going to be taken away again to Potchefstroom this evening?

SERGEANT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: It is the function of this Committee to commence its hearings not later than half past nine. Yes. And there are time when we even begin at 9 o'clock when it is possible to do so.

Now I would like to know from you whether I can get an undertaking from you that we can make a beginning at half past nine tomorrow?

SERGEANT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you do that?

SERGEANT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you very, very much, my Committee will be indebted to you if you can do that. Thank you.

This matter will stand adjourned until half past nine tomorrow morning. May I enquire whether there is any likelihood of the matter of Boetie Selepe being heard tomorrow morning?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, as far as I am concerned, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, Mr Selepe is here and I spoke to him earlier this morning. My learned friend I think will be in a better position to advise, but I think he still has to consult with Mr Selepe. Mr Selepe is present as are the victims or the family of the deceased, today.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had a chance of talking to Mr Selepe?

MR KOOPEDI: We just got introduced Honourable Chair, and that's the only thing we did. I hope to consult with him as soon as we adjourn and if possible we will proceed with his application tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should make use of the time that is available to you just now whilst Mr Selepe is here. Will Mr Selepe come forward please? Is Mr Selepe here?

MR STEENKAMP: He is present Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selepe, your matter will only be heard tomorrow morning, will you make sure that you are here in time tomorrow morning please, can you do that?

MR SELEPE: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Steenkamp, as you know we should make recommendations if amnesty is granted or even if it's not about the names of victims ...[inaudible] case is concerned.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, there's actually nine next of kin and family members present in the first matter. I've already informed the proper authorities about the correct and full names of the victims that are here present.

I've also spoken to a family representative of the families and all the names were given to me earlier this morning. I will make sure that they are formally registered on the TRC's formal list of victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Well ladies and gentlemen, the Committee will now adjourn unit 09H30 tomorrow morning.

MR STEENKAMP: As you please Mr Chairman.