--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] reached?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I'm not mistaken, the applicant number 4 will be called by my learned friend this morning.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to taking the oath - sorry, is that working, can you hear?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to taking the oath?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What are you full names?

MR TSHOANE: Stanley Michael Tshoane.

CHAIRPERSON: We are now continuing with this hearing, it is the 19th of August.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Tshoane, you have an affidavit in front of you which is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit which is before the Committee was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, can we just have the correct spelling? Is it Tso or Tsho?

MR TSHOANE: Tshoane.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Tshoane, have a look at page 2 of your affidavit - especially paragraph 5 Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, has he confirmed the affidavit?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, he confirmed it.

MR TSHOANE: It is already confirmed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Tshoane, can you have a look at paragraph 5 and especially line number 2 of your affidavit indicates that you were part of the unit that attacked Wesselsbron Supermarket.

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And that you have read the affidavit of comrade Bhani, it has been read to you?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And that you understand it and you confirm it inasfar as it relates to the part that you took in the Wesselsbron incident?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Tshoane, the evidence before the Committee so far regarding your part is that you were the owner of the car that was used in the operation in Wesselsbron and that you were the driver, do you confirm that?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you also confirm that on the day in question you were not armed yourself, except that you were a driver?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct, I was not armed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, what I want is that you tell the Committee the part you took, starting from Welkom, when did you become aware of this operation, starting when you left Welkom.

MR TSHOANE: I started to know about this mission when we left Welkom. We were four, that is myself, Themba Ngesi, Zuko and Sibanda. We left at half past seven to Wesselsbron. When we arrived, Mr Khotle told me that we should meet Mr Bhani in Wesselsbron who would explain to us about the operation.

When we arrived we met Mr Bhani in Wesselsbron. He said to me I should drive the car and take all those who were taking part to town. I did that, I took my fellow comrades to town in Wesselsbron. When we arrived I stopped the car in front of the supermarket and they entered the supermarket, then they accomplished the mission.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, were you present when Bhani was briefing the comrades about the operation?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct, I was present.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what he said?

MR TSHOANE: Mr Bhani said to those who were responsible that he made reconnaissance about the place and then how the plan should be accomplished and then he asked as to whether they would have problems and they said no, because they know the place. Then we left to that particular place.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how was the plan to be accomplished? That is what you were asked to tell us.

MR TSHOANE: They were supposed to enter there and shoot those who oppressed us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Tshoane, can you - let me put it this way, what role did he give each of you, that is Bhani, that you are going to do this, this one is going to do this and that, the other one is going to do that, can you tell the Committee in that manner?

MR TSHOANE: He informed the colleagues about what should be done, then he said: "Ngesi should enter the supermarket and shoot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, what was the role going to be played by Zuko?

MR TSHOANE: Zuko must also enter and shoot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was the role going to be played by Sibanda?

MR TSHOANE: Spanda was just next to the door, he did not enter inside. He was supposed to look for any people who would interfere with the plan.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee what happened after they came out of the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: After they left the supermarket they entered into the car and then we drove to the location.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, what did you do on your arrival at the location?

MR TSHOANE: When we arrived in the township I left them there, myself and Sibanda went to Tabong, that is Welkom.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what happened to the weapons?

MR TSHOANE: We left the weapons in Wesselsbron.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now do you know a person by the name of Moses?

MR TSHOANE: Moses? Yes, I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was he your friend?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you hear his testimony in court, when he testified in court regarding this incident?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me maybe remind you that he told the court that he was approached by Sibanda and he took Sibanda to you regarding transport.

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also that your refused on the first occasion.

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, were you told what was the purpose of them wanting your transport?

MR TSHOANE: When they wanted transport they - I had a certain duty to do. When he explained that he was sent by Mr Khotle, that is then that I agreed. I remember that Mr Khotle said there will be a parcel which I was supposed to deliver to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It is said that Moses told the court that Sibanda, if I'm not mistaken according to the court Jugement, Sibanda told you that there is a robbery which is going to take place at Wesselsbron.

MR TSHOANE: No, he did not tell me that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also that Moses told the court that after the incident at Wesselsbron, you told him about that but when you were still narrating what actually took place some people came and you stopped.

MR TSHOANE: No, I don't know that. Maybe it is a story which has been fabricated by the police and him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is there anything you want to add to your testimony to the Committee, you want to say in addition to what you have told the Committee?

MR TSHOANE: What I want to explain before this Committee is that oppressors are the ones who have organised those people, that those who are going to testify in court should testify in the way they did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Tshoane, putting aside what happened in court, I'm saying regarding this incident at Wesselsbron, of you taking part in what happened, is there anything you want to add or you want to say to the Committee?

MR TSHOANE: It was supposed that this work should be accomplished in whatever way, the plan which was used by those who were oppressed ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Tshoane, without deferring to what we are saying, let me lead you this way. You know that people died as a result of this incident, is there anything you want to say regarding that?

MR TSHOANE: They were supposed to die because in war people die. We were struggling for liberation and by any means people would die. That many people would die in that kind of an incident, mainly those who oppressed our black people during the previous government.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing to say.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable Members.

Sir, I just want to ask you a question related to yesterday's information given by Mr Khotle, if I pronounce it correctly. Do you agree with the evidence or the statement of Mr Khotle yesterday, when he told the Chairperson that amongst other things the order also was to kill anything that was alive in the store, or words to that effect? Do you agree with his testimony yesterday to this effect?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Was this your specific instructions, or what were your specific instructions regarding the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: I don't understand your question Sir. Will you please repeat it?

MR STEENKAMP: I'll gladly do so. What exactly were your instruction which you received from your commander regarding the supermarket at Wesselsbron?

MR TSHOANE: The instruction I received is to drive the car, to take the participants to the place of the incident.

MR STEENKAMP: Before I turn to your amnesty application itself I just want to ask you another question. Did anybody at any instance give you any orders to attack the white communities, did you get such orders from anybody?

MR TSHOANE: That kind of instruction was not given to me, it was given to those who were my seniors.

MR STEENKAMP: You have never received such orders, am I right? Is that what you are saying?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Well maybe you can help me. I want to refer to your amnesty application, page 3, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, and specifically to paragraph 11 2(b), page 3 Mr Chairperson.

Do you have it Sir?

MR TSHOANE: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: I just want to read what you've actually said there and maybe you can comment on it.

What does this mean?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I see it.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you comment on that Sir, because according to this paragraph it seems to me that you got certain orders to take the armed struggle to the white communities, isn't that correct?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: But why did you deny it? When I asked you the previous question you denied it. Why did you deny it?

MR TSHOANE: You talked about - you are not talking about the paper which is in front of me.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you understand my question Sir?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: I specifically asked whether or not you had any instructions to attack the white communities and you said no. According to your own application it seems ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't your question follow on immediately after your first question, which was: "Was an order given to kill anything that was alive"? And he agreed with that, and then you asked him about orders to attack the white community. Wasn't his attention specifically drawn to the day in question?

MR STEENKAMP: I agree Mr Chairman, there can be some misunderstanding.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood you were asking him what instructions he got on that day.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, the attack on the supermarket, can you indicate to the Committee exactly what the reason was for, your personal reason or the reason you thought to be for attacking the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: The reason for attacking the supermarket was the struggle for liberation.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I refer you to your amnesty application, page 2. This is under paragraph 9 (a) 4, with the heading there reading: Nature and Particulars. Do you see that?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I read this to you?

Are you saying that the owner of the supermarket was the Chairperson of the AWB, is that what you are saying?

MR TSHOANE: Because he was white I would say that.

MR STEENKAMP: Why didn't you include this testimony in your evidence in chief, that the Chairperson according to you, the shop owner at least was the Chairperson of the AWB?

MR TSHOANE: He was an AWB member because he was white, because the struggle was directed against white people.

MR MALAN: Mr Tshoane, the question was: "Why did you say he was the Chairperson of the AWB"? If we heard you correctly you were saying: "Because he was white". Is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Well am I white or not? The reason why I'm asking this, I have a white skin, am I the Chairperson of the AWB? You see your answer doesn't make sense. Won't you reconsider and give us an answer as to why you say that individual was the Chairperson of the AWB?

MR TSHOANE: At that time when we committed this incident we were directing our struggle against white people.

MR MALAN: Yes, the question is, why do you say that the owner was the Chairperson of the AWB?

MR TSHOANE: I would say that because in many instances, according to the information we gathered, gathered by members of APLA and PAC, the AWB used to assemble in that place.

MR MALAN: Would you look at that answer of yours again in the application form. You are saying that the owner of the supermarket was the Chairperson of the Afrikaner Resistance Movement, AWB. The owner was heading up the party of the AWB. There are a lot of white people in South Africa, they're not all the Chairpersons of AWB, why do you say he was the Chairperson. Did you write it or did someone else tell you to put it in there?

MR TSHOANE: That's what I wrote.

MR MALAN: Ja. Who told you to write it?

MR TSHOANE: Nobody told me, I did it myself.

MR MALAN: Now the question is, do you have an answer as to why you say he was the leader of the AWB in that area?

MR TSHOANE: According to the information we gathered he was the one who appeared to be the Chairperson of the AWB.

MR MALAN: You say the information you gathered, "we gathered". Did you get that information yourself, and from whom did you get it?

MR TSHOANE: I was informed by our regional commander who is Mr Khotle.

MR MALAN: Did Mr Khotle tell you that this owner was the Chairperson of the AWB? Is that your answer?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, that is the person who said so.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard his evidence didn't you?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't say it only once in your application. If you look at paragraph 10(a) at the bottom of the same page, you again say that:

Yes, I see it Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were giving this as the main political reason for the attack on this place?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Mr Khotle tell you this?

MR TSHOANE: He told me on Friday, let me say, ja, that is Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the day of the attack?

MR TSHOANE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When was it, when was the attack?

MR TSHOANE: It was on the night of the 3rd of July 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what day was that?

MR TSHOANE: It was on a Saturday.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was the day before the attack he told you this?

MR TSHOANE: It was on a Friday before the Saturday, a week before. It was on a Friday of the week before the week of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: So a week before you were told that this supermarket was owned by the Chairperson of the AWB?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And in what connection were you told this?

MR TSHOANE: We were sitting down discussing the issues of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did the issues of the organisation cover the ownership of the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: He associated this statement together with the investigations he made.

CHAIRPERSON: What investigations?

MR TSHOANE: Those investigations were in regard to the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: His reconnaissance with a view to attacking the supermarket, were those the investigations?

MR TSHOANE: No, it was the information he gathered, that the AWB used to frequent the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: I still don't see why you should be discussing this supermarket with him, that the AWB frequented it. You've told me it was in connection with the investigation he made about the supermarket, what investigation did he make?

MR TSHOANE: About the AWB who used to frequent the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: What investigation did he make?

MR TSHOANE: It was in regard to the movement of the people who used to frequent the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this on the Friday?

MR TSHOANE: It was the Friday of the week before, the week of the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: When on the Friday?

MR TSHOANE: It was around 11 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: In the morning or the evening?

MR TSHOANE: In the morning Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So at 11a.m. on the Friday morning before the attack, a week before, he told you about the investigations he had done at the supermarket, about the people frequenting it?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did he then discuss with you that the supermarket would be a target?

MR TSHOANE: No.

MR MALAN: Did he tell you that it was a possible target?

MR TSHOANE: No, he did not.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us - can you then try to explain to us what he discussed with you, why did he talk about the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: He was talking about the AWB who used to frequent this place.

CHAIRPERSON: But why should he bother to talk about the AWB frequenting a supermarket if it was of no interest to you?

MR TSHOANE: I knew that we were fighting these people.

MR MALAN: Did you know that the AWB was also fighting the government, that they were also planting bombs?

MR TSHOANE: They were not fighting the apartheid government, they were fighting the Africans.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, can I take you to page 3 of your application?

Mr Chairperson, it's under paragraph 10, 10(d), page 3.

Do you have that Sir? It is under the heading: "If so, explain the nature and extent of such benefits", do you see that?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: I just want to read that for you and ask you for your comment.

Where did you get this information from?

MR TSHOANE: I got it from the newspapers.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, since when were you a member of APLA and where were you trained?

MR TSHOANE: I've never been a member of the AWB.

MR STEENKAMP: No, no, I'm saying APLA.

MR TSHOANE: I was trained inside the country in Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you join APLA?

MR TSHOANE: I was a member of the task force.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, what will your comment be if I tell you that according to the police investigation, and at least a police investigating officer who is present here and if needs be he will come and testify, that you were never a member of APLA but you were only recruited by this gang or group because they needed your transportation and your vehicle? What will your comment be to that?

MR TSHOANE: I dispute that at all because I'm a member of the, I'm an African. I was trained with the members of the PAC to engage in the political struggle.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell the Committee, what was taken from the shop, was anything taken from the shop?

MR TSHOANE: We took money.

MR STEENKAMP: Who took the money and how was it taken, was it taken in bags or what? What happened to the money?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, it was in the bags in our pockets.

MR STEENKAMP: And who removed the money from the shop, did all of you do it or was there a specific individual tasked to do it?

MR TSHOANE: It was taken by those who were inside the shop.

MR MALAN: You say the money was in your pockets, did you have money in your pockets?

MR TSHOANE: No, Sir.

MR MALAN: How do you know the money was in the pockets of others?

MR TSHOANE: According to the evidence given by Ngesi.

MR MALAN: I'm not talking evidence Mr Tshoane, we want you to talk about what you know. We heard what Mr Ngesi said. Did you know that money was put in his pocket? Did you hear from his evidence now or did you know it before?

MR TSHOANE: I heard from his evidence.

MR MALAN: Did you not know that before he gave evidence?

MR TSHOANE: No, I did not know before.

MR MALAN: So you didn't know that money was taken until you heard Mr Ngesi's evidence, is that what you're telling us?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Was it the first time here that you heard that money was taken, when Mr Ngesi gave evidence?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So they didn't tell you at the time, after you drove them away after the shooting, that money was taken?

MR TSHOANE: No, Sir.

MR MALAN: And you got no money from them for driving them there?

MR TSHOANE: Not at all Sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You were tried for this offence weren't you? You've been asked about what was said at the trial.

MR TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't evidence led about the money that was stolen at the trial?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how could you say a minute ago to my colleague here, that you heard about money here for the first time? That was a lie wasn't it, you heard about it at the trial.

MR TSHOANE: Yes, even here. I did not see money at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You weren't asked about seeing money, you were asked if you heard about money.

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: But why did you tell my colleague here that you didn't here about it until you heard the evidence here. He asked you several times to make it quite clear and you said you didn't know about the money before, you heard about the money here.

MR TSHOANE: This thing happened a long time ago, it's five years and I forget some of the things.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now suggesting that you forgot that you were charged with robbery and convicted of robbery which involved the stealing of R4 000, and that evidence was led about this at your trial? Are you seriously suggesting to us that you forgot this?

MR TSHOANE: According to them I was charged with robbery although I did not take part in robbery. We went there to take money which will help to enhance the struggle for liberation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you now say you know you went there to take money?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet you've just a minute ago said you've forgotten about the money because it happened a long time ago.

That is what he said, isn't it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain?

MR TSHOANE: May you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain why, when you've now just told me you went there to get money for the liberation?

MR TSHOANE: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So how could you say before that: "It happened a long time ago, I forgot about the money"? No explanation, carry on.

MR MALAN: May I just take this further please Chair. There may be some misunderstanding. My initial question related to the money being carried in their pockets, you had no knowledge of that, that is what you told me, is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: And if I understood you correctly, you were waiting outside in the car, you didn't know that they took money, is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And your evidence was that the instructions given by Bhani to Ngesi and to Zuko was only to shoot?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: He gave no instructions that money was to be taken at that stage?

MR TSHOANE: Money was part of the mission.

MR MALAN: How did you know that? We know it was part of the mission, from their evidence, my question is, did you know it then?

MR TSHOANE: I did not know anything at that time.

MR MALAN: But this is the point Mr Tshoane, I want you to give evidence only on what you know or knew at the time, don't give us the evidence that we can get from the other people. We want your story and we want your full disclosure of what you know.

You in your evidence in chief said that the instructions while you were driving, the briefing, was to Ngesi to shoot, only instruction, to Zuko, to shoot, only instruction, you now said there was no instruction at the time that you heard of that money was to be taken, is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: The instruction given was to shoot.

MR MALAN: There was no instruction at that time that you heard of, that money was to be taken, is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: The instruction given was to shoot.

MR MALAN: And at the time of the incident you had no knowledge of money, of any money, is that what you're telling us?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You did not know that they had money in their pockets?

MR TSHOANE: I did not see any money and I didn't know about it.

MR MALAN: And when you dropped them at the location, as you gave evidence, and you and Sibanda continued, you had no knowledge of any money.

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I did not know anything about money.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Tshoane, when you were told to drive the others, what were you told was the purpose of going to that supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: The objective of going to that supermarket was going to fight those who were oppressing us in our land.

ADV SIGODI: So you were driving the others to go and fight, was that the purpose of driving the others to the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: My reason for driving them to the supermarket was for going to fight.

ADV SIGODI: That is only shoot the people you would find in the supermarket, do I hear you correctly?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Only?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, to shoot them.

ADV SIGODI: Was that the only purpose?

MR TSHOANE: Because we were involved in the armed struggle our reason was to shoot them and to take money. That is how we were operating then.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you know the purpose was to shoot them and to take money?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: So did you expect the others to have taken money or didn't you expect them to have taken money, when they left the supermarket, after the shooting?

MR TSHOANE: I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you expect them to have done so? You have told us a minute ago that the purpose was to go there to shoot people and to take money, did you expect them to do that?

MR TSHOANE: That is how we were operating then. That is how we were operating during that time of oppression.

CHAIRPERSON: So that it what you expected, for them to shoot and to take money?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you taken part in other such operations?

MR TSHOANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that that is how they operated? - "That is how we operated at the time"

MR TSHOANE: My main function there was just to drive them that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just told me that you knew, or you told the Committee, that to shoot and take money was how you operated during this time, the period of your oppression. Do you remember telling us that a minute or two ago?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know, you'd never been on an operation before, how did you know that this is how they operated?

MR TSHOANE: My superiors told me that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MR TSHOANE: That is Mr Khotle.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you that on this occasion?

MR TSHOANE: He told me many times. He told me about many things that were happening in our organisation.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, I in my possession a statement which you made to the police, which I gladly hand in the moment I'm able to make copies.

According to the statement, your warning statement to the police ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think it will be unfair to put that statement without ourselves also not having an insight to that statement, taken too that we have not been put in possession of that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: So he's being cross-examined on it, you'll see it. I gather Mr Steenkamp has not seen it before now.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, my objection is that also I think even before that we are supposed to be given such information.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you asked for any?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I've asked Mr Steenkamp yesterday. I told him that he must give us everything that is in his possession which he is going to use here. I've told him - he was here, I told him ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you require to read this statement? Five minutes?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Well Mr Chairman, it definitely won't be long. It depends, if it's one page it could be two minutes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Pass it to him. How long is it Mr Steenkamp?

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, it took me five minutes to read. It's about 7 or 8 pages.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on. ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Definitely Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take the short adjournment now and then we can continue uninterrupted I hope.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I had an opportunity to go through it with my client, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you for your indulgence Mr Chairman, Honourable Members. If I may just ask a few questions on this statement, if you would allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well before you do that, let us do a little bit of tidying up. I would suggest that we mark the statement from Mr Pedro Inaquio de Costa: A1, the affidavit made by him: A2 and the statement by Jau Avelina de Castro: A3. And that we now mark this statement, Exhibit B.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, you had the opportunity to read and go through this statement, am I right?

MR TSHOANE: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR TSHOANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, do you agree or do you confirm that this was a statement that you've made to the police, am I correct?

MR TSHOANE: I did this statement under duress. I was beaten, I was assaulted before I made this statement.

MR STEENKAMP: So, can you just explain to us where the police got this information from, the detailed information about the incident?

MR TSHOANE: They got this information from the informer.

MR STEENKAMP: And who was this person, do you know?

MR TSHOANE: Moses Leglogiso.

MR STEENKAMP: Please help me if I'm wrong, this statement was never contested in the Supreme Court in the way you're doing now, am I right?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: So why didn't you contest this statement in the Supreme Court when you had the opportunity to do so? Why didn't you tell the learned Judge, the Presiding Officer, that you were actually assaulted, and that this information came from the informer?

MR TSHOANE: I tried to explain in court but they did not listen to me, they dismissed my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you tried to explain at your trial that you had been assaulted before you made this statement and accordingly it shouldn't be admissible but they just dismissed your statement, paid no regard to it?

MR TSHOANE: That is what I'm saying Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you defended?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Who by?

MR TSHOANE: That is Mr Mavundla.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that the facts in this statement is not true?

MR TSHOANE: Not at all Sir.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us what specifically is not true in this statement?

MR TSHOANE: The statement in total.

MR MALAN: What was the car that you drove with? What make and model?

MR TSHOANE: That is a 1400 Datsun.

MR MALAN: Was it a bakkie or a delivery van or what was it?

MR TSHOANE: It was a van.

MR MALAN: Are you saying in the statement that you drove with a van or are you describing a different car? Is that car correct, the reference to the car in the statement?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct, that is true, I was driving a 1400 Datsun van.

MR MALAN: You referred to Danny going with you?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now why do you say the statement in total is incorrect.

MR TSHOANE: Police asked me about what they already know because if you look on the date, I was arrested on the 19th, then on the 3rd and then they started assaulting me on the 4th. They forced me to make this statement.

MR MALAN: Let's except that for the moment, that they forced you, the question is, what is incorrect in this statement, can you tell us what is not true? What in the statement is not true?

MR TSHOANE: The whole statement.

MR MALAN: Did you not go in the car that you described here? Were you describing a different car?

MR TSHOANE: I was explaining about the same car which I was driving and the police knew that I was driving the same car.

MR MALAN: Did you stop, as you say in your statement, in front of the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you hear gunshots while you were waiting in the car?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you leave the scene when they came out, dropped them off, as you say here?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: Now what is not correct? What in your statement is untrue, can you point out anything that you said in your statement that is not true?

MR TSHOANE: All those things which were said by Leglogiso, told them, they forced me to agree with.

MR MALAN: Which things, mention them.

MR TSHOANE: To make an example - I didn't want to explain to them what happened. If I were to tell them the truth I would be killed.

MR MALAN: But make an example of what was not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did you drive to the supermarket or did Danny?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I drove.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's not true to say Danny drove, as you say in the statement, that was not true?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And did Danny move the car after the shooting to another parking place?

MR TSHOANE: No, I was the one who was driving.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to a corrugated-iron house?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that where the guns were collected?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct, that is where I left the guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the guns collected there before?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, we collected the guns there.

CHAIRPERSON: So the guns weren't brought from Welkom or anything?

MR TSHOANE: We brought three guns from Welkom.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how did they get to the corrugated-iron house, you said you collected them from there?

MR TSHOANE: We took them there when we returned from the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you went to the supermarket, did you collect guns?

MR TSHOANE: We had three guns and then we took two guns from the corrugated-iron house.

MR MALAN: So then you had five guns?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Why did you take five guns?

MR TSHOANE: They were going to be used by the people who were supposed to use them.

MR MALAN: Were there five people supposed to be using guns?

MR TSHOANE: May you please repeat your question Sir?

MR MALAN: You say the five guns were supposed to be used by the people who were participating. Now the question is, were there five people?

MR TSHOANE: The other gun was left in the car.

MR MALAN: So did four people take guns and move in?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Who were they?

MR TSHOANE: That Zuko, Ngesi, Bhani and Khotle.

MR MALAN: Did Mr Khotle also go into the shop, into the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: I don't remember well Sir.

MR MALAN: This is important, surely you know? Did Mr Khotle travel with you to the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: I don't remember Sir, I'm now confused, I don't remember.

MR MALAN: You told us now that four people took guns and went into the shop. You named them freely, you said it was Zuko, Ngesi, Bhani and Khotle.

Can someone please attend to the message here from the interpreters?

Mr Tshoane, you said that five guns were taken in the van.

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I now hear.

MR MALAN: You say five guns were taken in the van?

MR TSHOANE: I don't remember well what exactly happened, it is after a long time.

MR MALAN: Let me take you back. You said that you had three guns, you went to this corrugated-iron house and you took two more guns, so you then had five guns, is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You said the five guns were to be used by the people who would be participating in this exercise, is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Then you said only four people took guns, one gun was left in the van, is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now who were the four people?

MR TSHOANE: That is Ngesi, Zuko and Bhani and Sibande.

MR MALAN: Did Sibande go in?

MR TSHOANE: He was at the door.

MR MALAN: He was at the door.

MR TSHOANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And Khotle, did he stay in the car?

MR TSHOANE: He was not present Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how did you come to say a few minutes ago that he was one of the people who took a gun?

MR TSHOANE: I said before that I was confused.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you didn't, you said you were confused after you were asked about Mr Khotle.

MR TSHOANE: I made a mistake by saying somebody who was not present.

MR MALAN: Did you know Zuko, Ngesi and Bhani from before or did you meet them then?

MR TSHOANE: I knew them before Sir.

MR MALAN: Did you know them well?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, Sir.

MR MALAN: How many of you travelled to the supermarket?

MR TSHOANE: We were five.

MR MALAN: In your statement to the police you said all five the persons got out of the car, now who were: "all five"?

MR TSHOANE: As I've already explained about the statement, I made that statement under pressure because they forced me to make that statement. They were leading me with the information because they knew, therefore I had to write what they knew or what they wanted me to write because I did not have any option, I had to do that.

MR MALAN: Did you tell them that there were not five people but yourself, Sibande and three others? Did you tell them that?

MR TSHOANE: I told them they way I did because they were assaulting me and they were leading me with the information so I had to verify what they told me. They took me to the police station to make a confession statement, then they said I should make this statement.

MR MALAN: So you did not offer any information to them, you didn't tell them anything?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, they told me to write what is in the statement because I didn't co-operate with them.

MR MALAN: And if I heard you correctly you said to Mr Steenkamp that this was not raised in your defence at the court case?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: The question was, why didn't you tell them at the court case that this statement was made, that you were led with this statement, that you didn't co-operate at all?

MR TSHOANE: I briefed my lawyer about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give evidence at your trial?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you questioned about this statement?

MR TSHOANE: I disputed the statement in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you questioned about it when you gave evidence?

MR TSHOANE: Yes. I resisted and I disputed, that this is a statement made by the police whilst they were assaulting me.

MR MALAN: Did the police tell you to put in your statement that Danny drove the vehicle?

MR TSHOANE: I told them because they were assaulting me, I didn't have any other option.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did the police tell you to say that?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, they were leading me with that information because they knew everything about me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if they knew everything about you, does that mean Danny did drive the motorcar?

MR TSHOANE: They were assaulting me, I didn't have any other option. I ended up by saying whatever they say I would agree with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you've just said: "The police were leading me with information because they knew all about me". That would imply that the information they were leading you with was correct.

MR TSHOANE: It was not true because it was received from the third person, not from me.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you have ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So you say the police did tell you that?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you have a driver's licence at that time?

MR TSHOANE: No, I did not.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you have it now?

MR TSHOANE: No, Madam.

MR STEENKAMP: So when you said that you refused to drive because you did not have a driver's licence and you told that Danny should drive, was that true or was that not true?

MR TSHOANE: That was not correct, that was not true. I wanted them to leave because what they were saying came from the informer. ...[no English translation] Moses Leglogiso.

MR MALAN: Did Moses know that you did not have a driver's licence?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: How did he know that?

MR TSHOANE: He was my friend whom I was staying with.

MR MALAN: How did Moses know of the detail?

MR TSHOANE: I don't know Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't there was he?

MR TSHOANE: He was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: So he couldn't have described where you stopped, he wouldn't have known that you went to a corrugated-iron house to collect weapons or matters of that nature, would he?

MR TSHOANE: Maybe he was told by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the police there?

MR TSHOANE: They were not present.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you see ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: You see Mr Tshoane, you must really make up your mind. Either Moses told the police and he was an informer or the police told Moses, now which story do you believe?

MR TSHOANE: It's that there was something which was done by the police and Mohoje about me. So Mohoje sold me to the police. That is the plan they did against me.

MR MALAN: Yes, but you tell us that Moses was not with you when you went to the Supermarket, so Moses would not have known this detail, so Moses could not have been the informer. When that was pointed out to you then you say: "But the police told Moses". Moses didn't make this statement, you made this statement. Where does Moses figure in this whole equation?

MR TSHOANE: I said before that the police led me with the information. Some of the information came from the police, some of the police might come from Moses.

MR MALAN: What information here could have come from Moses, because this statement deals with the shooting and the robbery and the run-up to that but Moses wasn't involved. How would he have known it?

MR TSHOANE: Maybe Moses learnt from Daniso.

MR MALAN: Okay, if Moses learnt from Daniso, Daniso went with you.

MR TSHOANE: That is correct, he went with me.

MR MALAN: So he knew what happened?

MR TSHOANE: Do you mean Mohoje? Maybe they had a conversation about that because they stayed in one place and they met on regular times.

MR MALAN: You're not hearing me. If the source of the information of the police, as you have told us, was indeed Daniso ...[intervention]

MR TSHOANE: He was not arrested. Daniso was never arrested.

MR MALAN: I know he was not arrested but he was there.

MR TSHOANE: Maybe they were, they had a conversation with Mohoje about that issue but I never said that to Mohoje myself.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that this statement was probably a plot against you.

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But as I read the statement, nowhere in it do you admit knowing of the plan, that you drove them there to assist them in the robbery, that you had any part in it. Your statement is, as I understand it, that you were being paid R50 to drive them to a farm and that only as you went along they told you to go further and further and that then Danny took over the driving and drove to the scene of the crime. That is what they statement says isn't it?

MR TSHOANE: What is written on the statement I do not agree with all because I made this statement under duress. These people were leading me into saying what they wanted me to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what I find hard to accept is that nowhere have they led you into saying that you were a party to this robbery, have they? There's nothing in the statement to say they told me what the plan was, they asked me if I could drive them to where they were going to rob and kill people. There's no such mention is there?

MR TSHOANE: It is because that is not my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: They point I'm trying to make is that is it is a police statement which they made to get at you, they would have made you say something that implicated you.

MR TSHOANE: What I was writing and what they asked me to say, I did that because I wanted to get out of trouble. It is true that they were leading me, everything that they were asking. They told me that their informer told them about me.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR STEENKAMP: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Just before - I will start where Mr Chairman left off Mr tshoane. Can you tell the Committee, when you were making this statement you allege that you were led to say what the police were saying. In what language were you communicating with the police?

MR TSHOANE: We were using Sotho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is the person you were giving the statement to, who was taking your statement down, was he a Sotho speaking person?

MR TSHOANE: He was speaking Sotho yes, but not very fluent Sotho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And whilst you were speaking he translated in Afrikaans?

MR TSHOANE: He was not fluent in Sesotho because I could not understand what he was saying. He never translated into Afrikaans.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Let me put is this way, there was no interpreter, it was yourself and de Jongh?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So when you were speaking to him you thought he was writing it in Sesotho, what he was writing?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, I was thinking that he was writing in Sesotho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was the statement read back to you after you have talked to him, finished talking to him about the incident?

MR TSHOANE: He never read that statement to me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You were just made to sign after you had finished talking?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now the other point I want to clear to the Committee is ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, I'm not sure that I understand the leading of this evidence. Is the contention that the contents was not disclosed to him at the time and therefore he didn't even know of this? Because his earlier evidence was saying: yes, this is indeed what was said but this was forced upon him. He did not dispute the contents. He confirmed the contents as he was led, not necessarily as the fact.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Through you Mr Chairman. I don't necessary mean that what I'm trying to put across to the Committee is that though the statement is before the Committee, he admits that is so. There may be a possibility that that's not what actually ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: There may be a possibility of a slight error in translation, but hasn't he agreed with the bulk of what was said, and his explanation each time was: "That is what the police said, that is what the informer told them". He hasn't once suggested that wasn't what was said at all. You are now trying to find another basis on which to attack this statement.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it is not necessary that I want to attack the statement, but even so, as he admitted, that indeed is what transpired. But definitely even if it is, there was a problem of communication, the statement. That is what I'm trying to put across.

I'm not necessarily saying that he disputes what is in the statement. He has already told the Committee that. I was led to make that, I was told that they know about that. I'm not saying that he did not say that Mr Chairman, I'm in no way disputing that Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Sorry, if I may just ask Mr Tshoane, did Mr de Jongh, the investigative officer, did he speak Sotho to you?

MR TSHOANE: He was speaking Sotho but he was not fluent in Sesotho.

MR MALAN: But he could speak Sotho, he could speak Sesotho?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, he could speak Sotho.

MR MALAN: And you understood what he was saying?

MR TSHOANE: I didn't understand everything what he was saying.

MR MALAN: But you said he led you on this statement and you haven't disputed the contents on the basis of which he supposedly had led you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr de Jongh lead you on this statement or did the other policemen lead you before they took you to Mr de Jongh?

MR TSHOANE: That is de Jongh himself.

CHAIRPERSON: He led you, he told you what to say?

MR TSHOANE: Yes, that is correct. The other policemen were also present. When I refused they were assaulting me.

MR MALAN: Mr Tshoane, when you refused what?

MR TSHOANE: When they wanted the whole information.

MR MALAN: And did you then give them the whole information?

MR TSHOANE: The information did not come from me, I never gave them any information.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure that I understand you. Either they gave you information which you agreed to because you were led or refused when they assaulted you.

MR TSHOANE: I refused some of the things that they were telling me, so when I refused they will assault me. Then I decided that it will be better for me if I agree with everything that they were doing, in order to stop the assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what did you mean when you said: "They wanted the whole information"?

MR TSHOANE: They wanted to know what happened at the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Tshoane, I was on the part of your trial. You told the Committee that you disputed this statement in the trial, and you were asked by Mr Chairman where you gave evidence in your trial, did you give evidence in your trial?

MR TSHOANE: I don't understand your question well, can you please repeat your question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way; you were charged in the High Court here in Bloemfontein, and there were many of you, together with the applicants, Bhani, Ngesi, yourself and Mohape, four of you. You stood trial for the Wesselsbron incident, is that correct?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did any of you give evidence in the trial?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you still remember clearly what happened in the High Court?

MR TSHOANE: Many things happened, some of them I don't remember well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The reason why I'm asking you is that according to the judgment of the case is that none of you gave evidence in the trial, in your trial. That is why I'm asking you whether you still remember what actually happened in your trial.

MR TSHOANE: That is what I'm saying, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: But when I asked you you said that you did give evidence at your trial. In fact you went on to say more than that. You said that you disputed the statement at your trial but the court rejected it, as I understand you said. Do you remember telling us that this morning, not a long time ago?

MR TSHOANE: I am now confused because you have asked me so many questions and so many things happened in the past, I can't remember them very well. I'm getting confused now.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In fact Mr Tshoane, it is true what is said by Mr Chairman, that you said that you gave trial and you also disputed your statement in the trial. That is what you told Mr Chairman when he was asking you. Now that is why I was asking you whether you still remember so that you're clear. And also the Judge in his judgment says that none of you gave evidence in the trial, that is why I'm asking you.

MR TSHOANE: ...[no English translation]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you give evidence in your trial? Okay let me put it this way, maybe you don't understand what I mean when I'm saying you gave evidence.

Were you taken to a stand and you were sworn in as it has been done here, after all the state has led its evidence in the court and told to give your version of the events at the supermarket, was that done?

MR TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You've got your answer.

MR MALAN: May I just ask, sorry, I want to ask it now so that you can follow on if necessary.

When you drove them to the supermarket it was your van, it was quite a way that you had to drive, did you pay for your own petrol or did they pay for the petrol? Did they give you money for the petrol?

MR TSHOANE: My car already had petrol, enough to drive there, and then when we arrived at Odendaal I put in some petrol again.

MR MALAN: Who paid for that petrol?

MR TSHOANE: Sibanda paid for the petrol.

MR MALAN: Can you remember what the petrol cost you when you came back, that Sibanda paid for?

MR TSHOANE: He paid about R50,00.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, maybe in the meantime I beg leave to submit another statement, the statement of Mr Stefanus Johannes Hugo who was the investigating officer. He is present here today. It's a statement of his regarding this issue, and can that be marked Exhibit C?

CHAIRPERSON: C1.

MR STEENKAMP: C1. I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. I've handed a copy to my learned colleague here. The original is in your possession Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I said C1, because we were in fact handed - oh, one is a copy, well then C. Sorry, I thought we'd been handed two statements.

MR STEENKAMP: It's only the original and a copy for yourself Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR STEENKAMP: Sure Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you've had a chance of reading it either. I think we can all take a minute or two to read it.

MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, the exhibit is only two pages. The document appears to be an affidavit but it's not dated or taken under oath.

MR STEENKAMP: That is correct Mr Chairman, if necessary I can call the investigating officer to confirm this statement. It was actually drafted today, a few minutes back but that can be amended if necessary.

MR MALAN: When was this statement made?

MR STEENKAMP: It was made today Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Today.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] to Stanley Mohale. I take it that is Stanley Tshoane who has just given evidence?

MR STEENKAMP: That's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, unless there is anything more?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we have finished with this applicant.

DAY : 3

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'm now going to call Malusi Morrison.

Mr Chairman, I would like just before he takes the stand, because there is no affidavit except his application, just to explain to the Committee the reason why when it comes to him there is no affidavit.

Mr Chairman, I had problems in getting him from Ermelo in the Defence Force, in releasing him. I have been fighting until he came here on Monday, released to be here on Monday. So that is the reason I couldn't obtain an affidavit and prepare properly for him. Mr Chairman, his evidence will only be the supply of weapons from Umtata to Welkom.

CHAIRPERSON: A further problem I think that you may have to meet was that despite the fact that Mr Morrison in his application refers to this incident, he was not

set down as one of the applicants, he was set down as an applicant in another matter and he was only joined as an applicant in this matter I think, on Monday which would also put you at somewhat of a disadvantage in preparing for this application. The same holds good with the next doesn't it? Mr Mazete was also originally not put down as an applicant here. Carry on, we'll call Mr Morrison.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to taking the oath?

MOALUSI MORRISON: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

MR MORRISON: Malusi Morrison.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Morrison, you were here when Abel Lerato Khotle gave evidence before the Committee and he made mention that the arms came from Umtata and that they were brought by yourself though he did not see you and together with Sebenzile. Now I want you to tell the Committee your role regarding the Wesselsbron attack with regard to the arms, what part did you play?

MR MORRISON: What happened is, the Deputy Director of Operations from Umtata, Sipho, sent me and he told me to take Sebenzile to Welkom in Tabong where we were going to meet Abel Khotle, the Regional Commander of the Free State. We would then hand over the weapons to him and the ammunition.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee whether he told you Sipho - am I correct to say that the Sipho you are talking about is Sipho Xuma, Bulelani Xuma?

MR MORRISON: I won't dispute that. I knew him by his code name, Sipho. I don't know his original name and surname.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for the benefit of the Committee, Mr Chairman the Deputy Director of Operations in APLA was Sipho Bulelani Xuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Spell the last name.

MR MBANDAZAYO: X-U-M-A, Mr Chairman.

Did he tell you what the purpose was for these arms, did he tell you why you had to take these arms to Welkom to Khotle?

MR MORRISON: No, but because I was an APLA soldier, he didn't tell me exactly what these arms and ammunition were going to do but as a soldier I knew what the weapons were about. I was working in a logistics department. I knew that when I was bringing arms to the Free State there was going to be war or they were going to fight.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you for the benefit of the Committee tell, you have already told them just now that you were in the logistics department, what was the role you were playing in the logistic department yourself? What were your duties in that department?

MR MORRISON: The role of the logistics was to supply them with ammunition, to store ammunition and to collect ammunition and arms, and I was also involved in transportation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It is therefore your evidence before this Committee that you took these arms to Welkom and you knew that they were going to be used by the APLA cadres in the Free State?

MR MORRISON: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also your evidence that you did not know the specific target or you knew about the specific target which was going to be attacked or used against?

MR MORRISON: No, I didn't know the specific target.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you meet Khotle at Welkom when you arrived with the arms with Sebenzile?

MR MORRISON: No, I didn't meet him that day personally.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee, what was the transport you were using to transport the arms, was it transport from APLA or anywhere? Where did you get the transport and what type of transport were you using?

MR MORRISON: The transport I was using was the APLA transport here in Free State when I was deployed in Botshabelo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee how then did you know that these arms were used at Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MR MORRISON: We read from the newspapers. There was an article about Wesselsbron, and it happened that I was arrested in 1993 and the police said that they ballistic tests and they had information that I took the weapons to Welkom together with Sebenzile. They said that the weapons that we brought to Welkom were the ones which were used in Wesselsbron.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you still remember the quantity of these arms and ammunition? How many were there, what type of weapons were they?

MR MORRISON: I don't remember well but there were R4's, rifle grenades, the grenades and ammunition and a lot of magazines fully loaded and some spare R4 ammunition.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all for this witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Morrison, can you tell the Committee what your political motivation is for your part in this incident?

MR MORRISON: Please repeat the question.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you please tell the Committee or inform the Committee what your political motivation was for your part in this incident, your part being the supply of weapons.

MR MORRISON: First of all, when I joined APLA I wanted to further the aspirations of the Africans to bring back the land of the Africans that was taken. A lot of things happened. If you can remember even here in the Free State.

In 1993 there was a stage when the Boers had a slogan that was saying: "One taxi, one bullet", where they African were killed. Even in Ficksburg Africans were killed by Boers in that "One taxi, one bullet" and the taxi was shot at. And another thing, children who were working very hard on the farms from their mother's wombs, working very hard, pregnant women working very hard. Until labour they were working very hard, during pregnancy until labour.

She never got a chance to go to school and get educated just like other people. The life of people here in the Free State, more especially in the farms that belonged to the Boers, and these Boers were members of the AWB on the farms.

In 1992 in the Transkei, 1990 if I can remember well, where AWB members were training people to overthrow the Transkei Government. We were also there in that Transkei Government, we were really affected by what was happening there. Those are the things that made me realise that the Boers are really prepared to harass the Africans.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, in this instance, not a farm but a supermarket was attacked and there were no AWB members present there at all. Are you familiar with this detail?

MR MORRISON: First of all the Wesselsbron is next to the farms and the farmers are buying there at Wesselsbron, that you cannot dispute.

MR STEENKAMP: Evidence will be led by myself that 90% of the people buying at the supermarket were the local black people staying there. Can you dispute this?

MR MORRISON: Did you hear me? I said, at Wesselsbron Supermarket, the Wesselsbron Supermarket is surrounded by farms, the whites used to buy there at that supermarket.

MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, I don't know whether this is taking us much further. Mr Morrison's evidence is that he had know knowledge that the Wesselsbron Supermarket would be attacked.

MR MORRISON: Correct.

MR MALAN: You only brought the weapons to Welkom.

MR MORRISON: Correct.

MR MALAN: And you brought in order to make it available to people to, in terms of police, continue attacks?

MR MORRISON: Correct.

MR MALAN: I don't think this questioning can lead us any further Mr Steenkamp.

MR STEENKAMP: Maybe just one last question Mr Chairperson, if you would allow me.

Sir, are you aware what the PAC policy was at that stage, regarding the identification of targets, do you know what it was?

MR MORRISON: As a soldier I know that.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you please then tell us what the policy was?

MR MORRISON: The majority of the whites, if we happened to sport a place that is actually frequented by a majority of whites we had to target that place and attack them. Even the petrol deports, we had to target them so as to cripple the economy. The farmers were also targets, police.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No re-examination Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, the next applicant will be George Thabang Mazete.

CHAIRPERSON: What language do you speak?

MR MAZETE: Sotho Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR MAZETE: What is your question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

MR MAZETE: George Thabang Mazete.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mazete, you have an affidavit in front of you which is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit which is before you was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR MAZETE: That is correct Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I will go to paragraph 6 of the affidavit.

Mr Mazete, I'll read the second line, the third line of paragraph 6:

I want you Mr Mazete, to take the Committee starting when you started drawing up the map, your role you played, the circumstances which led you to drawing the map of the Wesselsbron Supermarket.

MR MAZETE: As a member of the task force within the PAC, many things which we were taught as members of the task force is that we should know to do reconnaissance and that is why I was able to draw the map. I think that is all.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee the reason why you drew up this map?

MR MAZETE: To add on what I already said, as a member of the task force in every operation or in any work which you're supposed to do as a member of the task force which the organisation wanted to do, that is why I was able to do the map for them, of the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer the question once again. Why did you draw up this map?

MR MAZETE: It is because I was instructed by comrade Bhani.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know the reason why - did he tell you the reason why he instructed you to draw up the map?

MR MAZETE: No, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you ask him: "Why are you saying I must draw up the map of Wesselsbron Supermarket, yet you know it" - I take it that you were all in Wesselsbron. Didn't you ask him: "Why should I draw up a map when you know the supermarket"?

MR MAZETE: No, I did not.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think you knew why?

MR MAZETE: After that I thought that he wanted to do something about the map, even if I did not know exactly what.

CHAIRPERSON: Well about the map or about the Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MR MAZETE: About the map.

MR MBANDAZAYO: After the - let me ask you this way first, did you know that the Wesselsbron Supermarket is to be attacked?

MR MAZETE: No, I did not.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I understand that the weapons, according to your affidavit, is that they dropped weapons after the incident at Wesselsbron Supermarket. Did you know that when they were dropping the weapons that they were coming from attacking Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MR MAZETE: No, I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they tell you the reason why they were dropping weapons at your place?

MR MAZETE: They did not tell me, they just request me that I should put those weapons in my house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee at what stage you realised that the map and the weapons were used at Wesselsbron?

MR MAZETE: After they were arrested and I was arrested, when we were in the police station, that is when I started to know. That is when I started to know that those things were used for the attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At what stage did you hear about the news of the attack at the Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MR MAZETE: On a Sunday the following day.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you not, after you heard the news, think that this map and the weapons which were dropped were used in the attack, were the ones which were used in the attack? Did you not suspect that or think about that?

MR MAZETE: Yes, I did suspect that they were used for this attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you became sure after the arrest, that indeed they were used in the attack?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if there are no further questions I will proceed to paragraph 7.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I have a few questions that I think in the interest of your client we might get.

You have told us that comrade Bhani instructed you to draw up this map.

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was comrade Bhani a member of any organisation that you knew of?

MR MAZETE: He was a member of the PAC and APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: And who dropped the weapons at your house?

MR MAZETE: That is Bhani, comrade Bhani.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. I will proceed to paragraph 7 as I indicated Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, do you know - was it discussed with you later, after the attack, how the map which you drew up was of assistance to the people who attacked the supermarket?

MR MAZETE: No, I was not.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you, the map of the supermarket that you drew up, was that a map of the supermarket inside or was it the location of the supermarket on the streets? What was this map consisting of?

MR MAZETE: The inside of the supermarket.

MR MALAN: When did he ask you to draw this?

MR MAZETE: If I remember well I think it was around March or towards the end of March or maybe the beginning of April, towards the end of April.

MR MALAN: So it was long before the attack, is that what you are saying?

MR MAZETE: Yes, not that much. It's not that long.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, almost three months.

MR MAZETE: It might be even in May because it was not a long time. I don't remember well but I don't think it was such a long time, the duration between the drawing of the map and the attack.

MR MALAN: Did comrade Bhani know the supermarket then?

MR MAZETE: I don't know, but he asked me to draw that map. I don't know whether he knew the supermarket.

MR MALAN: Did you assist you in drawing up the map? Did you do it in his presence in other words?

MR MAZETE: Yes, he was present.

MR MALAN: Did he discuss with you and give you directions while you were drawing the map?

MR MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: He didn't comment at all, is that what you are saying?

MR MAZETE: No, he was quiet whilst I was drawing the map.

MR MALAN: Do you know whether he had been into that supermarket himself before?

MR MAZETE: No, I don't know.

MR MALAN: Did he not tell you?

MR MAZETE: He did not.

MR MALAN: Before you drew up the map did you go into the supermarket to check?

MR MAZETE: You mean myself or him?

MR MALAN: No, yourself.

MR MAZETE: No, Sir.

MR MALAN: On what basis did you know the supermarket that well?

MR MAZETE: I knew it well because I'm a resident there in the nearby township.

MR MALAN: Do you yourself often buy at the supermarket or did you then?

MR MAZETE: Yes, mostly.

MR MALAN: Regularly?

MR MAZETE: Yes, many times.

MR MALAN: And other comrades of yours, did they buy there?

MR MAZETE: Yes, because they were residents there in Monyake.

MR MALAN: So the supermarket was frequented also by APLA and PAC supporters?

MR MAZETE: I don't know members of APLA but members of the PAC used to go, many of them used to go to that supermarkets as it's one of the supermarkets in the surrounding area in Wesselsbron.

MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp indicated that he would be leading evidence that almost 90% of the shoppers at that supermarket were black people, can you confirm that?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: The other 10% I assume would then not be black. Did you ever see people in uniform at the supermarket when you were shopping?

MR MAZETE: Sometimes yes, I used to see them during the day and during the night.

MR MALAN: In the supermarket is the question?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: What uniforms are you talking about?

MR MAZETE: You'd find that those are white people who would dress in khaki uniform.

MR MALAN: Police uniform?

MR MAZETE: That is correct, they used to come in their uniform to come and buy.

MR MALAN: The khaki, was that uniforms or khaki clothes?

MR MAZETE: Those are normal clothes but the way I knew is that they were specific people who used to dress in khaki clothes, that is white people.

MR MALAN: You're not talking of uniforms, like official police uniforms or officers uniforms? When you talk about khaki uniforms you're talking about khaki clothes? Am I hearing you correctly, I don't want to lead you on this, I'm asking.

MR MAZETE: I spoke of normal khaki clothes.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you that this was a busy supermarket, most of the customers were black who lived in the area and there were also some white customers, some in khaki, some policemen, who went there to do their shopping?

MR MAZETE: Those blacks who used to come there with khaki clothes on are students but many of those who used to clad in khaki clothes are white people.

CHAIRPERSON: White students?

MR MAZETE: I mean black students.

CHAIRPERSON: They were black students? And they were there to do their shopping?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct, they used to come there and buy, maybe after school.

CHAIRPERSON: And the whites came to buy as you did?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: This supermarket, was it near a taxi rank?

MR MAZETE: Please repeat.

ADV SIGODI: Was it near a taxi rank?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know the last time the taxi would leave for the township?

MR MAZETE: Around 7 o'clock at night.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed?

MR MALAN: Sorry, just one last question.

Do you know what time the supermarket closed?

MR MAZETE: Yes.

MR MALAN: What time was that?

MR MAZETE: Around 8 o'clock at night.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. I move to paragraph 7, Mr Chairman.

Now can you tell the Committee, after how long did you give these weapons to Mohape, after the incident? How long after the incident did you give them to him?

MR MAZETE: Around a month.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you tell him about these weapons, anything about them, that maybe they were used, the operation or what?

MR MAZETE: No, I only told him about these weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] told him about?

MR MBANDAZAYO: He only told him about the weapons.

Now you told him, what did you him about the weapons?

MR MAZETE: I said to him that he should help me to keep them safe because there were people who would be coming.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How long after the incident at Wesselsbron Supermarket were you arrested?

MR MAZETE: Approximately four months.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete, it transpired during evidence before the court, if I'm not mistaken, that a certain amount was left with you after this incident, after the attack at Wesselsbron Supermarket.

MR MAZETE: That is not true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Also can you confirm, were you paid a certain amount of money for keeping the weapons or for assisting in the whole operation at Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MR MAZETE: That is not correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, did you hear about this evidence - coming to my first point, did you hear anything in court about the evidence that an amount of about R9 000 was left with you after the incident?

MR MAZETE: Yes, I did hear, I made that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You did what?

MR MBANDAZAYO: You just said now in your evidence that you made that statement and that an amount of R9 000 was left with you ...[intervention]

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also if I'm not mistaken you also said that you were given an amount, you received R50 after it has been counted ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that to us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I was - thank you, Mr Chairman it was myself who mixed it with the - I'm just looking at the court record, I wanted him to answer both of them.

You have not yet said that, so I wanted to know whether you did make this statement again, that you were given R50 after the amount has been counted?

MR MAZETE: That was under certain circumstances, that is why I made those statements.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what I want from you, now that you confirmed that this transpired during the court proceedings ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was this during your trial that you said this?

MR MAZETE: That is before I was tried in court, after I was arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have just told the Committee just before this, that the only that was left with you were arms and nothing else. Now can you tell the Committee, why did you now make a statement to say that an amount of R9 000 was left with you and you were also give R50 after the amount was counted?

MR MAZETE: Because I was tortured by the police. I spoke about this money so that they would leave me alone.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: It's now 1 o'clock. Have you had a copy of this statement?

MR STEENKAMP: No Sir, I haven't seen this statement at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it it will be supplied to you in the same way as you have supplied copies?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before that I was reading the court record Mr Chairman. I indicated that it transpired during the court - it's from the court record Mr Chairman. I indicated that according to judge there is an amount of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I understood you put to the last witness that nobody gave evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, definitely I put it that way but I said that it transpired during the court proceedings, that this evidence transpired during the court evidence, the court proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] it was being be put by him, the statements made by him?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: You gentlemen can investigate the position.

Would a quarter to two suit you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, it would suit me.

CHAIRPERSON: A quarter to two.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: ...[inaudible] colleague during the break. Apparently there is no sworn statement that was made or that is available by the applicant. I'll just continue the questioning of the applicant Mr Chairperson.

Sir, if I look at your amnesty application, to start there, according to my documents, page 19 or at least it's marked page 19, this is the application of George Thabang Mazete, and to paragraph 9(a) there, I see you're referring to an incident which happened on the 22nd of October 1993. Can I repeat the question for you?

MR MAZETE: Yes, would you repeat please?

MR STEENKAMP: Looking at your amnesty application, page 19 which is the first page of your amnesty application, I see there paragraph 9(a) you say this incident apparently occurred on the 22nd of October 1993, is this a mistake?

MR MAZETE: No, that is not so.

MR STEENKAMP: So according to you this incident occurred on the 22nd of October 1993, do I understand you correctly?

MR MAZETE: It did not happen on that day.

MR STEENKAMP: So that is my question.

MR MAZETE: Sorry?

MR STEENKAMP: Is this a mistake?

MR MAZETE: That is so.

MR STEENKAMP: Is this the only mistake in your amnesty application or is there anything else you want to point out which is wrong, or is the rest of your application correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if I can just be of help not necessarily on the question, if the applicant can be told that the bundle is before him, take the bundle in front of him and open it, the bundle, not the affidavit. Take the bundle, turn to page 19.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 19 of the bundle is part of the old application of Khotle, isn't it? Oh, you're looking at the other bundle?

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman for the inconvenience.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] not the Wesselsbron Attack but the attack that is marked: "Wesselsbron/Thabu'Nchu Police"?

MR STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman.

Do you have your application in front of you now?

MR MAZETE: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just answer my question if possible? Is there anything else you would like to amend or point the Committee's attention to that is wrong in your application or do you still stick to your application as it is?

MR MAZETE: I don't know. The way I filled this application form I'm satisfied.

MR STEENKAMP: Well if we can go to page 20 ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: May I just ask, the handwriting there, is that yours? Did you write this?

MR MAZETE: No, it's not myself.

MR MALAN: Who wrote it?

MR MAZETE: I don't know.

MR MALAN: Were you present when this form was filled out?

MR MAZETE: Yes, I was present.

MR MALAN: But you don't know the person who wrote it?

MR MAZETE: I know him because he was present when the form was filled.

MR MALAN: Where was this done?

MR MAZETE: In Bloemfontein.

MR MALAN: Where in Bloemfontein?

MR MAZETE: Grootvlei Maximum Prison.

MR MALAN: Who was the Commissioner before whom you signed this?

MR MAZETE: There was no Commissioner who made us taken an oath.

MR MALAN: Do you someone, Sizane?

MR MAZETE: It might be the one who filled this form but I don't remember his name well. I don't know the name of the person who filled this form.

MR MALAN: Do you know a member of parliament?

MR MAZETE: No, I don't.

MR MALAN: Was a member of Parliament present when you signed this form?

MR MAZETE: It might be those lawyers who helped us to fill those forms, maybe that person from parliament was present.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears to be signed by somebody who alleges he's a member of parliament but the copies that I have seen are not dated.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I continue Mr Chairperson?

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, can we just have a look at paragraph 10 on page 20, which is the second page of your application. Can you just turn to that page please, marked page 20? Do you have that in front of you?

MR MAZETE: Yes, I have it.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm just going to read from your own application and I just want your comment. Do you have it in front of you now?

MR MAZETE: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Under the heading: "State Political Objective Sought to be Achieved", you said:

Do you still stick to this version?

MR MAZETE: No, what I know about this is that we were carrying forward the armed struggle for liberation. As to whether the owner of the shop was the AWB, I do not know.

MR STEENKAMP: Why did you put it in your amnesty application Sir?

MR MAZETE: When I filling this application I didn't include this aspect to say, I only talked about my objective, I did not include that the owner of the shop was a member of the AWB.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you please tell us what your political objective was?

MR MAZETE: It was to achieve total liberation for the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when you filled this form in this paragraph wasn't filled in?

MR MAZETE: I did fill it in?

CHAIRPERSON: Well what did you say?

MR MAZETE: I told them about my objective, that is was to achieve total liberation for the people.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is not what is in the form here. You say that is what was filled in in the form that you signed, that you prepared, as I understand you. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

MR MAZETE: I don't know who put that addition, under which circumstances or reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what else has been put into this form that you don't know about?

MR MAZETE: The way it was filled I'm satisfied. There is nowhere where I have doubts.

CHAIRPERSON: But the problem is you have told us it was filled in a certain way, the form we have is filled in and they are completely different in context.

MR MAZETE: To explain shortly before this Commission, at the time when we were filling these application forms those people who represented us at that time, we were telling them orally and those people were writing or filling those forms. I did not fill this form by myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell those people who were filling in the form:

MR MAZETE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Because that has been written in the form and then scratched out.

MR MAZETE: Yes, I see that.

MR MALAN: Do you have your bundle open on page 20?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't think it has the same number, the one application he is using as yours Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Sorry, the copy of the statement that you have before you, I assume it's on the second page at the top, there is a IV and it says: "Nature and Particulars", do you have that before you?

MR MAZETE: That is correct, I see it.

MR MALAN: And you can read what is written there?

MR MAZETE: Do you mean the way it was scratched?

MR MALAN: You can see that it's scratched out with a diagonal line there.

MR MAZETE: Yes, I see that.

MR MALAN: And then there's some initial on the left of that scratched our paragraph. Is that your mark?

MR MAZETE: It's not myself.

MR MALAN: It's not your mark.

MR MAZETE: No, it's not my mark.

MR MALAN: If you turn over the page you see your name at the bottom: Deponent: George Mazete.

MR MAZETE: Yes, I see that.

MR MALAN: Is that your mark?

MR MAZETE: No, it's not myself.

MR MALAN: That's not how you write your name?

MR MAZETE: That is the way I write it.

MR MALAN: Did you write this?

MR MAZETE: No, it's not myself.

MR MALAN: Who wrote this?

MR MAZETE: It's the TRC lawyers.

CHAIRPERSON: You say TRC lawyers?

MR MAZETE: Those who represented the Truth Commission, who consulted people who wanted to apply for amnesty in this province.

ADV SIGODI: When you were interviewed or when you were being assisted in filling in this form, were you alone?

MR MAZETE: No, I was not alone.

ADV SIGODI: Was it you and the lawyer or was it you, was it a whole group of people and the person who came to take your statements?

MR MALAN: It was myself and the lawyer and many other people who were filling their forms for amnesty.

ADV SIGODI: Was Mr Morrison present when this form was filled, Malusi Morrison?

MR MAZETE: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And of the other applicants, who else was there?

MR MAZETE: My co-accused were present, who are my co-applicants now.

ADV SIGODI: Were you all held in the same prison?

MR MAZETE: Yes, we were in the same prison.

ADV SIGODI: So were you relating the story as a group to the person who was taking down your statements or were you just giving your statements individually to the person who was taking your statements?

MR MAZETE: Individually.

MR MALAN: Individually to the same person in succession or to different persons?

MR MAZETE: It was the same person.

MR MALAN: You see Mr Mazete, the difficulty I have is that if I look at your application, the handwriting in which this was filled out I cannot find in any of the other forms. The handwriting in the other forms, all of them, are totally different. So it looks as if your document was filled out either by someone with knowledge, on your behalf or directly under your direction by an individual who certainly had by then not taken any of the other statements, not so?

Sorry, let me just put this on record. It's been shown to me that Tshoane's application is in the same handwriting. That may explain the information that was scratched out, thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Can the Committee attach any value to the information that has been submitted to the Committee in your application?

MR MAZETE: Yes, they are obliged to do so.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you discuss this application, your specific application with your lawyer before coming to the hearing?

MR MAZETE: Yes, we did.

MR STEENKAMP: And did you go through the application, did he go through the application with you?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And you were then satisfied that this is actually - you were actually satisfied that this information is correct as far as you were then concerned, am I right?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know if any AWB members were killed in this incident?

MR MAZETE: No, I don't know.

MR STEENKAMP: May I just have that answer again please, I didn't hear it.

MR MAZETE: No.

MR STEENKAMP: You see Sir, according to paragraph 10(d) you're saying there, I read to you:

How should we understand this now?

MR MAZETE: It shows the way he filled that. He knew and then we agreed that that is how it happened and those people who were affected were like that, so that is the way I did not dispute that.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, isn't it correct that you were never a member of APLA at all? Because this is what the investigating officer will tell the Committee if he is called. You were never a member of APLA, you were only there to assist the gang in providing safe housing or a place to store the weapons away, is that correct?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: So you were never a member of APLA, because this is what you've just said.

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: So maybe I'm wrong but according to the previous applicants the amount of R4 000 was stolen or taken, robbed, at the supermarket. You said you received R9 000, do you know where this money came from and who gave it to you?

MR MAZETE: No. As I've already explained before that I didn't know as to whether there was money which was taken there. And again I was forced by the police to talk about that money so that they would leave me alone.

MR STEENKAMP: Just one question I forgot to ask you, you just said you were never a member of APLA but in your amnesty application in paragraph 7 you stated that you were a member of APLA, why is that?

MR MAZETE: I don't know, that is the way it was written.

MR STEENKAMP: Returning to the money, do you know what happened to the money, the bulk of the money?

MR MAZETE: No, I don't know.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know for what purposes money was taken?

MR MAZETE: No, I do not know.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, were you ever a member of PAC? Am I right to say you were never a member of PAC?

MR MAZETE: That is not true.

ADV SIGODI: I don't understand, what is not true? Are you saying you were never a member of PAC or you were a member of PAC? I don't understand.

MR MAZETE: I was a member of PAC.

ADV SIGODI: Were you a member of APLA?

MR MAZETE: No, not at all.

ADV SIGODI: What was your role in PAC?

MR MAZETE: I was the General Secretary of the Student Wing, that is PASO.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of the task force?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell me exactly what your role was in this whole incident? What exactly was required from you to do, in this incident? Exactly what was your responsibility?

MR MAZETE: In the first place I drew the map of the supermarket and from there I hid their weapons which were used in that operation.

MR STEENKAMP: And that's all, am I right?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Did any of the other people who were involved in the shooting inside the supermarket, some of your co-applicants, did they report back to you what happened in the supermarket?

MR MAZETE: Not at all.

MR STEENKAMP: When did you realise that the shooting incident occurred in the supermarket, when for the first time did you realise something happened in the supermarket?

MR MAZETE: The following day, that is on Sunday.

MR STEENKAMP: How did you get to know this?

MR MAZETE: By rumours, that such an incident happened in town and by seeing many policemen within the township, then I believed that that kind of an incident happened.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you have any idea why the supermarket was attacked?

MR MAZETE: No, I don't have knowledge.

MR STEENKAMP: Would you say, as a PAC member, that this was a legitimate target?

MR MAZETE: I don't know.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know what the PAC police was on identification of targets?

MR MAZETE: No.

MR STEENKAMP: You joined - according to your statement you joined the PAC or PASO in 1990/1991, did anybody inform you what the function or the policy of the PAC was at all?

MR MAZETE: Since I joined the PAC in 1990, some of the people I joined with or I joined by or through them, told me all about PAC.

MR STEENKAMP: But you're not able today to tell us what the policy of the PAC was, am I right?

MR MALAN: Your question was whether he had any knowledge of the PAC's policy in terms of targets.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you concluded your questioning?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've got one or two, just basically one question left. I was just trying to ...

Sir, my last question to you. Can you just briefly tell the Committee what your political motivation was for your part in this incident?

MR MAZETE: My political motivation on this incident was because the PAC was engaged in war for liberation at that time, the work of the Military Wing which is APLA, was that to bring the PAC close to liberation for the people.

MR STEENKAMP: But what was your personal political motivation?

MR MAZETE: To fight for liberation for the people.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Mr Mazete, may I just ask you, you say the arms that were used when brought back to you stayed with you for about a month, is that correct?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Was it ever used for any other project, other attack during that month?

MR MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: Did nobody come to ask the weapons of you?

MR MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: So to the best of your knowledge after this incident those who attacked the supermarket as part of the liberation struggle did not carry out any other action for at least a month and for as long as the arms were with Mr Mohape?

MR MAZETE: I don't remember well, but I don't think they were used.

MR MALAN: Well you would certainly remember whether they were used while in your possession?

MR MAZETE: They were not used at all for another operation whilst they were with me.

MR MALAN: That's between the attack of the supermarket and your giving it to Mr Paulos Mohape?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one matter I'm a little confused about. Do you remember during the course of your evidence your counsel asked you about evidence that

R9 000 was left with you and you replied: "I made that statement"?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you make that statement?

MR MAZETE: To the Chief Magistrate of Welkom.

CHAIRPERSON: You made a statement to the Chief Magistrate of Welkom?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In which you said that you had been given R9 000?

MR MAZETE: I told him so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also tell him you had been given R50 after the money was counted?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do this?

MR MAZETE: Because I was forced to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Who by?

MR MAZETE: Even before I made this statement the police threatened me that I should tell the Magistrate that I was tortured. So things like that I would not say if I was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you said even before you made this statement: "I was threatened by the police that I should tell the Magistrate I was tortured", is that what you said?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean that you were threatened by the police if you told the Magistrate you were tortured?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you taken to the Magistrate to make a statement to him?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he ask you if you were making it freely and voluntarily?

MR MAZETE: It was myself who gave that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this, do you know?

MR MAZETE: It was on the 27th of October if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he record the statement?

MR MAZETE: I don't understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he write it down, record it?

MR MAZETE: I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Weren't you asked to sign it?

MR MAZETE: No, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean you were taken to the Chief Magistrate to make a statement, you can't say if he wrote it down and you weren't asked to sign it?

MR MAZETE: Yes, they took me to the Magistrate. It is true that I was taken to the Magistrate, that is the police. Where I remember that he said to me to sign is where he made mistakes what I was telling him about.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say he made you(?) to sign it?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this statement referred to at your trial?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That is your trial in the Supreme Court?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

ADV SIGODI: Can I just clarify something?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV SIGODI: The contents of the statement, what you told the Magistrate, was it something that had happened, was it something that you knew or what?

MR MAZETE: Yes, it was the truth.

ADV SIGODI: So the aspect about the R9 000 and the R50, was that the truth?

MR MAZETE: No, it was not truth.

ADV SIGODI: Then I don't understand because you have just told us that what you told the Magistrate was the truth, how do you explain the discrepancy?

MR MAZETE: To make an example, as I was able to help those people who took part in that operation, I was able to hide their guns, those are the kinds of elements I put in the statement.

ADV SIGODI: ...[inaudible] R50?

MR MAZETE: I said that because I've already told the police. I knew that it would give me a problem if I don't include that in my statement whilst I did tell the police about the R9 000 and the R50. That is why I included that in that statement.

ADV SIGODI: And so when you told the police about the R9 000 was it the truth?

MR MAZETE: No, it was not the truth.

ADV SIGODI: Why did you tell them that?

MR MAZETE: I wanted them to release me because maybe I would be killed because of that so I wanted to satisfy them.

ADV SIGODI: Did they tell you to tell the Magistrate about the R9 000 or did you tell them about the R9 000 because you wanted to get them off your back?

MR MAZETE: I told them about the R9 000 because I wanted them to leave me alone. So to the Magistrate I saw that it was risky that I should leave that element in the statement I did before the Magistrate because those are the people who would handle the docket and they would ask my why I didn't tell the Magistrate about the R9 000 whilst I did tell them about the R9 000. So I was protecting myself.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you, on what basis did you believe that if you would tell the police a lie that you received R9 000 plus R50, that they would suddenly leave you?

MR MAZETE: Because I heard from the news the following day that they talked about the money that was involved there and I thought that by so saying I will make them satisfied about the investigations they were doing in this regard.

MR MALAN: Did they ask you where the R9 000 was?

MR MAZETE: No, they did not.

MR MALAN: You earlier said when you were asked: "How did you learn of the attack"?, you said: "By rumour and by the police in the streets and the township", now you tell us you also heard it on the news. Where did you hear it on the news?

MR MAZETE: At home we have a radio, so we listened to the news on a daily basis and so I listened to the radio when they broadcast the news. So I learnt that from the radio, and then about the disappearance of the money.

MR MALAN: What did you hear on the news? What did they say about the money on the news?

MR MAZETE: They said a certain amount of money disappeared.

MR MALAN: Did they say how much?

MR MAZETE: I don't remember as to whether they said the amount but they said there is the disappearance of money.

MR MALAN: So why did you choose R9 000 as a figure?

MR MAZETE: It just came from my head so that they should be satisfied.

MR MALAN: And this was four months after the incident, after your arrest?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: By then, when you were arrested and before you made this statement to the police, did you have any contact with your then co-accused?

MR MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: So when the police took you in you didn't know whether any of your co-accused had been apprehended?

MR MAZETE: I knew because we used to go to Low Court whilst the first accused was prosecuted.

MR MALAN: Did you speak to him then?

MR MAZETE: No, I did not know him.

MR MALAN: What do you mean you did not know him?

MR MAZETE: It was for the first time I saw him.

MR MALAN: Who is the first accused that you're talking about?

MR MAZETE: That is Stanley Tshoane.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

Mr Mbandazayo, may I just ask you to, in re-examination, canvass the issue of the signature. We may be in the position here where we don't have a valid application.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mazete, just on the point which has been raised by the Committee, let me start by - you have been asked regarding the application which is in front of you, the application which was submitted to the Truth Commission, and you indicated to the Committee that it was not filled by yourself, is that correct?

MR MAZETE: That is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, what I want to know from you, you have been asked by the Committee about the signature, whether after the application was filled and you have been assisted by whoever assisted you during the filling of the application form, were you asked to append your signature at the end of the application form?

MR MAZETE: Can you please repeat your question, I don't understand your question.

MR MBANDAZAYO: After you have completed the application form with the person who was assisting you in filling it, you have already told the Committee that you were asked and this person was filling the application form on your behalf, now I'm asking were you made to sign at the end after he has completed filling the application form on your behalf? Were you asked to sign the application form?

MR MAZETE: Yes, in the application that I filled.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you sign the application that you filled?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you were asked by the Committee - in fact let me ask you this way, is the application which is in front of you they application that you filled when you were assisted by those persons who came to the Grootvlei Prison?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you indicate where did you sign the application form?

MR MAZETE: I signed on that space where it is written: "Deponent".

MR MBANDAZAYO: But you've told us that the signature there is not yours.

MR MAZETE: I would like to ask for pardon before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: What for?

MR MAZETE: Because this application, I see this application is printed. When I was filling this application it was not printed and I used a blue pen but now I see a black pen. That is why I was confused.

MR MALAN: In what language did you fill it out? This may be the problem

MR MAZETE: I was using Sotho.

MR MALAN: Now then this may be explaining it. We can check on our records whether we have the original and that simply a translated version has been put before us. But even that would be difficult to understand because the signature is affixed here or what pretends to be a signature in a different pen, a different writing.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is not your signature you've told us, where it says: "Deponent". You signed your own signature on the form you filled in in ordinary hand-writing, is that what you are telling us?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete, let me go back to this question of your signature, are you sure that the application you filled was in your own language, Sesotho? Was it also written in your own language, Sesotho?

MR MAZETE: I was not given the form that was written in Sesotho, I was only speaking Sesotho and the person who was filling the form was busy writing as I was speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the form written in English?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: In hand-writing, not in print?

MR MAZETE: It was printed.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it this form or another form?

MR MAZETE: It means it is the same form.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you come not to sign it, how did you sign another form

MR MAZETE: Like I have already explained to this Committee, the form that I filled, they person asked me to sign that form after he has filled the form. So I don't know afterwards what happened to that form.

MR MALAN: Are you saying it's not this form before you, the one that you have there?

MR MAZETE: I do agree that it is the same form.

CHAIRPERSON: But you've told us repeatedly it's not the one you signed.

MR MAZETE: I don't know whether the person who filled this form wanted to change it or I don't know whether this is the same form that I filled or not but they look similar.

CHAIRPERSON: But the signature you have told us repeatedly is not your signature.

MR MAZETE: I can fill the form and put the signature and then take that form and make photocopies of it. My signature will definitely appear on that photocopied document.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the signature on this form a photocopy of your signature?

MR MAZETE: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you sign this piece of paper please?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, we will undertake in the meantime to see if we can find any other applications in our office in Cape Town, that may be related to this applicant and which may probably be in Sesotho.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Chairperson, can I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm marking this Exhibit D. ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

Just on that aspect I'm going to your affidavit. Just look at your affidavit Mr Mazete - let me ask you this way before you look at your affidavit, is that what you have done when you have been requested by the Chairman to put down your signature, is that your signature?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is my signature.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Mazete, I want you to look at the affidavit which is before the Committee and which I started using before we started these proceedings regarding this matter and look at the paragraph 7, below paragraph 7 where it says: "Deponent".

MR MAZETE: Yes, I do see.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is that your signature which is there at the bottom of that?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears to be very similar to the signature he has just signed. The M is the same with a loop in the middle, the g is similar. ...[inaudible] very unlike the signature on the application.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, I've been placed in the possession of the warning statement of the applicant which was signed in 1993. It is his original hand-writing, original document where he signed three times, and it will help you in any way I would like to show it to you and hand it in to you. I would like to beg leave to just hand it in Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: If the Committee can bear with me, I just want to go to the applicant and check the papers in front.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I can take another opportunity? Mr Chairman, I just want to place on record that I was also informed that the accused did actually complete a Section 217 statement which was handed in as an informal(?) confession in the Supreme Court on which he was convicted and found guilty. Unfortunately there is no copies of those documents in existence anymore and the original is part and parcel of the exhibit list which was handed in in the Supreme Court. So in actual fact the Section 217 statement was ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What has happened to the exhibits?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, as I understand it was handed in in the Supreme Court. The investigating officer is here. We're trying to establish what happened to that exhibit list.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Exhibit V.

Have you got any further questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There are certain matters I would like to clarify with you please.

Mr Mazete, you said that you kept the weapons and then you gave them to Mr Mohape for safekeeping.

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have anything to do with the weapons after that?

MR MAZETE: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them again?

MR MAZETE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have anything to do with any other weapons?

MR MAZETE: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You were accused number 3 weren't you, at the trial?

MR MAZETE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Now evidence was led at the trial that on the 22nd of October you took Major Hugo to a sink structure and dug up three R4 rifles, eight magazines and 197 bullets, do you remember that?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What weapons were these?

MR MAZETE: If they were the same weapons that we hid there then they were R4's.

CHAIRPERSON: What weapons did you hide there? I asked you if you saw any other weapons, you said: "No", now you say you hid weapons there, what weapons did you hide there?

MR MAZETE: That is the same weapons that Bhani asked me to go and hide them for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Who asked you to go and hide them for him?

MR MAZETE: That is Mangalisekile Bhani.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told us you gave them to Mohape and never saw them again. You told me that, you confirmed it again a few minutes ago, do you remember that?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that happened after that.

CHAIRPERSON: After what? You told us you were given the weapons to keep and you kept them till people came to stay and you then gave them to Mohape.

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the last you saw of them?

MR MAZETE: I saw them again when we went there with the police to dig them up.

CHAIRPERSON: But when were they buried there?

MR MAZETE: We hid them in August.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you gave them to Mohape?

MR MAZETE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: After you gave them to Mohape?

MR MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you tell me that you never saw them again after you gave them to Mohape? Had you forgotten that there was this evidence?

MR MAZETE: That time when we were digging them up they were just a parcel, a wrapped parcel so I was not quite sure whether they were the same weapons that were used or we hid there.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us nothing whatsoever about hiding weapons, you told us on more than one occasion that you gave them to Mohape and when I've just asked you you said that you never saw them again. Now, because I've questioned you about the evidence at your trial, you say, oh yes, after you gave them to Mohape you went along and buried them. Why are you lying to us?

MR MAZETE: I'm am not telling a lie.

CHAIRPERSON: You said you never saw them again after you gave them to Mohape, now you say that is not true, you went and buried them.

MR MAZETE: Like I've already explained in court, the time when we went with the police it was just a wrapped parcel but I did not see them with my eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your explanation?

MR MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there's one other matter which I don't know if counsel can help me with, as to what Exhibit D was at the trial. I've glanced through the Judgment but I haven't been able to find it.

It may be that we will have to re-call this applicant tomorrow to clarify that point.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've endeavoured now to get hold of the register of the Supreme Court so that we can at least get a list of the exhibits and probably all the exhibits itself if needed.

CHAIRPERSON: If we can have that by tomorrow morning.

MR STEENKAMP: As you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you can get this statement that was handed in.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, apparently that was also an exhibit.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] referred to in the Judgment.

Right, any questions?

Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, the last person I'm going to call is Paulos Mohape and he is the one Mr Chairman, his application would be held tentatively, provisionally until the confirmation that he did apply.

CHAIRPERSON: The same might apply to the one we have just completed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to taking the oath?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names please?

MR MOHAPE: Mohlolo Paulos Mohape.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the document handed in and signed by the applicant on a number of sheets? That is a statement from him, is that common cause?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't know about the statement, it's just that it came up during the questioning when the Committee was trying to verify the signature of the applicant and there was a statement handed in. He also signed the statement. I haven't had a sight of it except when it was passed.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should have a sight of it. I've just glanced at it now and it appears to deal in some detail with how the weapons were hidden, where they were hidden and when they were hidden. And it's a matter which I think should be investigated fully and compared with the other statement he has made. I am now going to entrust the copy to you, the original document to you. Perhaps it would be preferable to have photostat copies made and the photostat be given.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, will that then be admitted as Exhibit D?

CHAIRPERSON: It is Exhibit D as far as the - no, Exhibit E, as far as the - Exhibit D is the specimen signature we obtained here. This will be Exhibit E as far as the signatures are concerned and then I think counsel should be given an opportunity to consider what is contained in it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before I proceed with this applicant, I was looking at the time, maybe the Committee would make a ruling. This morning when the applicants came to court they came to me and they told me that they had problems yesterday, they didn't have a place to sleep until this morning they were able to wash, even this morning. That is why they also came late to court and they were treated badly yesterday because they were told that they came late and everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, is this in a prison?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible] prison Mr Chairman. So now that problem, because they did not sleep yesterday because they didn't have a place to sleep. In fact ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This unfortunately is a problem that I have met up with before, that there appear to be arrangements made to cope with accused persons who are returned from court, that the prisons make arrangement to receive them but it does appear that in certain prisons, and this may be one of them, there are not satisfactory arrangements to receive other people who arrive there later. Do you know what time they have to be there by?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Could you perhaps enquire?

MR STEENKAMP: I will enquire quickly Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because last time, yesterday we sat till half past four which is very much later than usual.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've arranged that the prison will be able to admit or take care of these people at any time, it's in your hands Mr Chairperson but I've spoken to the person of Correctional Services now. Yesterday apparently there was a logistical difficulty but that's been taken car of for today.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we will go on until 4 o'clock but we won't sit later than four. I think that is the time courts normally adjourn and that's when the logistics appear to be adjusted to.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Please assure your clients that if they have any further problems of this nature they are to inform you as soon as possible and then you will please inform me and I will take what steps we can to make sure it doesn't happen again.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Sorry Mr Chairman, it seems as if I want to make sure whether they have the copy of the - Mr Chairman, it seems as if there is a problem regarding the affidavit of the applicant. I don't know what happened because they were done together with those which are in front of the Committee. I don't know what happened. Sorry Mr Chair, it seems as if they managed to get hold the affidavit, thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mohape, there is an affidavit in front of you and the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Which one?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll use this. The other one relates to the application, the submission of the application. I will use the other one which is the shorter one.

CHAIRPERSON: The shorter one? Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mohape, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit in front of you was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, that is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I would like you to go to paragraph 5 of your affidavit:

Now can you tell the Committee how did it come that you were in possession of these arms and ammunition that you were convicted of?

MR MOHAPE: I will explain it this way. These weapons belonged to ...[indistinct], that is the People's Liberation Army. I got hold of them because we could not give them to Mazete because there were many people living with Mazete, that is his sisters. So he asked me where we can put these weapons because he was the person who was involved the task force like myself.

I decided that I would take these weapons to my shack because I was living alone in that shack. So we went to fetch those weapons and we took them to my shack. That is where I hid them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: As a follow-up to that point, when you took the firearms, were you together with Mazete?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I was together with Mazete.

MR MBANDAZAYO: With whom did you hide the weapons in your shack?

MR MOHAPE: I was together with Mazete.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know these weapons or did he tell you where they were coming from and how did they come into his possession?

MR MOHAPE: As the person who had already had information regarding the task force I asked him, I asked him about the whereabouts of these weapons, where they come from and then he said they were brought by the members of APLA. They were given to him - as I've already explained I was living alone, then I accepted and then I agreed that I would go and hide them at my place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that these weapons were used in the attack at Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MR MOHAPE: I did not know but I was suspicious because I heard from the radios, from the television, that this must have been APLA's actions because that supermarket was near to the township where we live.

MR MBANDAZAYO: All what you are telling the Committee is that you did not know that, you only suspected?

MR MOHAPE: That is true, I only suspected, I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, you were never a member of APLA I take it?

MR MOHAPE: I was a member of the task force.

MR STEENKAMP: What was the role of Mr Mazete in the task force, do you know?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I know because he was a commander in our branch in Monyake.

MR STEENKAMP: But Mr Mazete never told the Committee this, he said he was also a task force member, he never said he was a commander. Do you know why this is?

MR MOHAPE: I agree that he didn't say that because himself, as far as I know he was a member of the task force. Really, I don't know why he didn't tell the Committee about this.

MR STEENKAMP: What was his function as a task force commander, do you know?

MR MOHAPE: As far as I know we had the same function. Our function was to fight. We were both involved in the armed struggle to liberate the African people who were oppressed at that time.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just tell the Committee what exactly was your political motive for your part in this incident?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for purposes of clarity, if my learned colleague can clarify which incident he is referring to, the possession of arms or the Wesselsbron incident?

MR STEENKAMP: Well I think we can stick to the Wesselsbron incident for one.

MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, the applicant gave evidence that he wasn't involved, that he had simply a suspicion at a later stage and that he was only involved in safekeeping arms.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm sorry about that, I read the wrong paragraph here.

Can you tell me what your political motive was for the possession of firearms, as you testified?

MR MOHAPE: My political motive as far as the weapons are concerned was to carry forward the armed struggle in our country. So I saw it important that it was necessary for me to be involved in the liberation fight so I hid them where I hid them so that we can carry forward all the aspirations of the African people so that they can be liberated in their own land.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MR MALAN: Mr Mohape - I'm sorry, Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you have no re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Mr Mohape, you stated now that you had the same function as Mr Mazete, that function was to fight, you say you were involved in the armed struggle. What was the fighting, how did you fight?

MR MOHAPE: Even though I did not carry some of the responsibility that I was given inside APLA I was also involved in carrying out some of the aspirations of APLA like any other members who are the members of the PAC.

MR MALAN: No, that I understand, but you gave evidence and you said that you were not a member of APLA but you were a member of the task force, you had the same role as Mazete, and the role in the task force was to fight, can you just give us an indication what that was about? How did you fight?

MR MOHAPE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I will explain it in this way. During the time when I was trained I was trained to come and fight to liberate the people. I never received an instruction to go and fight although I was involved orally by educating our people, the people who did not know how to participate in liberating our country.

So that was the way that I was using because I already had the education and I was also getting education from other members of APLA.

MR MALAN: But you were at no stage yourself involved in armed struggle in the sense of physically carrying guns and partaking in projects or actions?

MR MOHAPE: Not at all, that never happened.

MR MALAN: So was this the only occasion when you had guns in your possession?

MR MOHAPE: That is correct, that is the only occasion that I had arms with me.

MR MALAN: So then you will recall the circumstances fairly well I assume? Is that correct?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I still remember, even though I do not remember that much.

MR MALAN: You knew Mr Mazete well?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, that is correct, I knew him well.

MR MALAN: You said that a lot of his family were living with him, his sister and others, is that correct?

MR MOHAPE: He was living alone but sometimes it happened that the people will come and rent his shack. He was using that same shack with other two people who came to rent in that shack. They were actually accepted by Mazete's sister. So we were forced to take out the weapons from that shack to my shack.

MR MALAN: Can you just tell me, when it was put it your shack was it ever removed again and put in another shack?

MR MOHAPE: No, they were never removed from my shack.

MR MALAN: You made a statement to the Magistrate Brown, did you?

MR MOHAPE: That is true.

MR MALAN: In terms of that statement you told him that you, a few days after the incident, were taken to the house of Shemi, is that correct?

MR MOHAPE: If I remember well, that is true.

MR MALAN: Now who is Shemi?

MR MOHAPE: He was the Chairman of the Monyake branch.

MR MALAN: And you told the Magistrate that there were four R4 guns, magazines and rounds of ammunition as well as three handgrenades. That's what you said in your statement, is that correct?

MR MOHAPE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And that then you assisted to take it to a corrugated-iron shack where it was buried again or where it was buried. Let me just read out to you, this is the summary of the Judge in his Judgment. He says:

This shack was your own. So it was moved on a number of occasions and apparently you were involved in this moving of the weapons, is that correct?

MR MOHAPE: That is correct, that is what I said.

MR MALAN: Was it true?

MR MOHAPE: That was not true.

MR MALAN: Now why did you tell the Magistrate that you had more involvement than you indeed had? If you only received it and put it away once in your own shack, why did you tell the Magistrate that you were involved on more occasions?

MR MOHAPE: Chairperson, I will explain it this way. When I was arrested conditions were very bad. Some of the things that I said are things that I did not do. I wanted the police to sympathise with me because those police who came to arrest me were assaulting me, they chocking me, they were doing all these bad things to me. So everything that I said, those lies that I said in that statement I think they would continue beating me if I didn't make those statements. That is the way that I was using with the intention of forcing them to release me. That is why I told the Magistrate those lies.

CHAIRPERSON: But why should the police be interested in saying: "I took the guns and I buried them in one spot and then I buried them in another spot and then I buried them in a third spot"? The police were interested in finding the guns weren't they?

MR MOHAPE: It is true because those weapons that they got, they never believed that those were the only guns that were used. For example, during the interrogation while they were asking me questions they were asking me about APLA, they wanted to know: "Who is APLA"? They were referring to it as if it was a person. So they did not believe that these were the only weapons that we had.

I was surprised by their attitude, that is why I decided that I would tell lies they way I said it, so that they could stop assaulting me.

MR MALAN: When you made this statement, this specific statement, that was made to the Magistrate and not to the police. Can you remember when you made the statement to the Magistrate?

MR MOHAPE: Mr Chairperson, I do not remember well but I think it's a day after that I was arrested because they went to fetch me from jail and they took me to their offices. That is where they instructed me that everything that I've written in the statement, because they had already written everything that is in that statement.

They said to me, if I'm not going to tell the Chief Magistrate about this thing that I've already written they are going to assault me until I make what they want me to do because it was their duty, because they already assaulted me. Because I was in great pain, then I agreed that I will say so at the Chief Magistrate's offices and that is what I did.

MR MALAN: Can you explain to us why the police would want you to state that it was buried at three different places and not only at two?

MR MOHAPE: I told the lies because I was protecting myself because I realised what I was telling them they did not accept as the truth. They forced me to tell them the way I told them because after telling them those lies, that is when they stopped assaulting me..

MR MALAN: No, but I can't understand that. You're telling them the truth, which is that it was first buried in comrade Mazete's shack and from there moved to your shack and they keep on beating you, and then you tell them, oh, but inbetween it was buried at another shack too, and then they are happy. Is that what you are telling us?

MR MOHAPE: That is correct Mr Chairperson, because as they continued assaulting me, after I told them they were in my shack they did not accept and that is why I was forced to tell lies and say they were also taken to another shack. That is when I realised that they were now stopping to assault me, because they accepted that is was so.

MR MALAN: But your statement Mr Mohape says that the last time it was placed in your shack, and that indeed was so, that is where the weapons were discovered, not so?

MR MOHAPE: That is correct, they were found in my shack.

MR MALAN: So I still fail to understand why it was important to tell a lie as to the route the weapons followed until they landed in your shack, because you start in your statement to the Magistrate, with the shack of Mr Mazete. You say in your statement that he had family and that you therefore decided to move it, but then you say you moved it to another spot and eventually to your house.

I can't understand why the police would be happy with that, simply because you also talk about another place where there was a temporary stay of the weapons. What was the importance thereof, why would they be happy with that?

MR MOHAPE: I will say they were happy about that because the way I explained it to them, when I said I took them to my shack until my arrest, they did not accept that as the truth, they continued assaulting me. That is what forced me to tell them the lies and then I realised that after lying to them, after saying I moved it to other places as well, that is when they accepted. Although I knew it was not the truth, but they stopped assaulting me.

MR MALAN: Were you not - you never knew that the weapons were buried in the shack of Mr Mazete, you didn't know that? Is that what you're telling us?

MR MOHAPE: I did not know. I only knew when were taking them to my shack.

MR MALAN: Alright. So he was your commander, he kept the weapons for a month but he never told you about it, is that what you are saying?

MR MOHAPE: During that month while they were still at his place I don't know, I only knew about them when he told me that we have to take them and get them another place and then we agreed that we would take them to my shack. That was the first time that I knew about the weapons, that is the time when we were taking them to my shack.

MR MALAN: Did you assist him to take it out from under the ground at his shack?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say they were under the ground at his shack.

MR MALAN: No, no, I'm asking that because that was in the statement, it was buried he says, in the statement to the ...[inaudible]

Did you assist him in removing the weapons from his shack, taking it to yours?

MR MOHAPE: That is correct, I helped him.

MR MALAN: Where did you find the weapons in his shack?

MR MOHAPE: They were buried inside the shack under the mat, they were wrapped. So we took them to my shack and then we wrapped them and buried them and they were safe there.

MR MALAN: So you helped him to take it out from his shack?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I helped him and he also helped me to bury them at my shack and then we separated after that.

MR MALAN: And you didn't ask him about the origin of the weapons and the use?

MR MOHAPE: I asked him where these weapons came from and he said to me: "They belong to the organisations". Then I accepted it was not necessary for me to ask further questions because I was trained as a member of the task force that I should not ask unnecessary questions to another comrade. If he gave me an answer I must be satisfied. So I was satisfied with the answer that he gave me, that they belonged to the organisation. So we took them and ...[indistinct]

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one point I'd like to clarify so that you can't be criticised on the same basis as the previous applicant. Were you also - did you also hold an office where you were branch organiser?

MR MOHAPE: In the youth arm of the PAC I was an organiser, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, no further questions. That is my applicant's case at this stage Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've handed in a new statement, or not a new statement but just an attested statement of Pedro Ignacio de Castro. The previous one you had in your possession was not attested to, this one is attested to.

Mr Chairman, if you would allow me, there are certain statements I made to some of the witnesses which I said will be testified to and to this cause I would like to call Pedro Ignacio de Castro, the owner of the shop.

Mr Chairman, Mr de Castro's statement is in Afrikaans. I don't know if he wants to speak Afrikaans or English but his statement is in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you want to talk English or Afrikaans?

MR P DE CASTRO: It doesn't matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Are prepared to take an oath?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

MR P DE CASTRO: Pedro Ignacio de Castro.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR P DE CASTRO: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, you were and you still are the owner of the Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR STEENKAMP: At the time of the incident you were still then the owner, am I right?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell me, am I right in saying that one of the victims was your wife?

MR P DE CASTRO: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just state her full names for the record please?

MR P DE CASTRO: Maria Fatima de Castro.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying you are also opposing, as the other victims are, the applications of all the applicants?

MR P DE CASTRO: That is one hundred percent.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you briefly give the Chairperson an overview of exactly what happened on the night in questions?

MR P DE CASTRO: It was a Saturday evening. It was about two minutes to 9 o'clock. I was on the back of the supermarket. I was attending to one of my workers who was ask me for money ...[intervention]

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry, who was this, do you know?

MR P DE CASTRO: Poelie was his name.

MR STEENKAMP: Poelie? Do you know his full names?

MR P DE CASTRO: Solomon Setsuro.

MR STEENKAMP: And was he one of your employees?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR STEENKAMP: You may continue.

MR P DE CASTRO: I was attending to his pledge to me that he wanted to borrow some money for the weekend and all of a sudden I just heard people screaming in the front of the shop. At the same time I heard one gunshot going off. We both quickly ran to the door which is from the bakery side onto the supermarket ...[intervention]

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry to interrupt again. Can you maybe speak a bit slower so that the translators can get through?

MR P DE CASTRO: Okay, sorry. And I saw some men. One which was carrying an R, it looked like an R4, an AK47 and he had a briefcase in the other arm at the same time.

MR STEENKAMP: Is it possible for you to identify this person here today, is that person here today?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes, he's here.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you please identify that person? Is it possible?

MR P DE CASTRO: His name is Bhani.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you point him out?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes, the first one on my left sitting down.

MR STEENKAMP: Can that person just stand up please?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you said his name was what?

MR P DE CASTRO: Bhani.

MR STEENKAMP: And you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please tell us your name for the record? The person who was sitting in the front row of the audience who was identified has now come up to put his name on record. Please give us your full name.

MR BHANI: I'm Mangalisekile Bhani.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That is the first applicant.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr de Castro, you were saying this person was carrying a bag or can you describe this container?

MR P DE CASTRO: He was carrying this briefcase, a black briefcase and at the same time he was handling a firearm, which I presume was an AK47 or an R4 or whatever. It was very long.

MR STEENKAMP: You may continue.

MR P DE CASTRO: But you know, I got into such a state of shock you know, things were happening so fast. Then I just saw some people standing against some our fruit and veg that we had stacked behind the tills. Behind our cashier's tills we had some apples and tomatoes stacked up to about, just a bit higher than a person's height and I just saw, I saw Mr Giovani, he's sitting over there.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know his full names Sir, and is he related to you?

MR P DE CASTRO: He's related to my brother. His names is Giovani Kleynhans(?). He was standing against the boxes with his arms up in the air and I saw his late father, Mr Kleynhans and I saw his brother-in-law, Mr Sparkham, all with their arms in the air. And they were being ...[indistinct] because they were like pushing themselves into a flat, into a piece of paper against those boxes you know.

And this chappie that was with me, Poelie, he got into a state and he started shouting and then they started shooting at us to the back of the bakery. The shots were so much that we didn't have an option, we had to run out of the shop on the back door.

While we were trying to get out of the shop we had to climb a high wall on the back of the shop, then we just heard shots going off and I quickly ran for help and when I came back I just saw everybody lying down and killed and injured and ...

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, can you give an indication of how many people were in your shop at the stage of this incident?

MR P DE CASTRO: At that stage, when I got back into the shop, there was five people killed, which was my wife, Mr Kleynhans senior, Mr Sparkham and two employees of Telkom which were doing shopping at that time at the supermarket. I've got no idea what their names are, I've forgotten. And I found my brother, John, he was injured. He had been shot several times on his leg and Susan and Henk Viljoen. They were apparently on their way out of the supermarket and they pushed back into the supermarket and they were shot just like that you know.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, as far as you can remember when these people were shot, the victims, where were they, were they standing up, were they running away or where were they?

MR P DE CASTRO: Excuse me? Can you repeat?

MR STEENKAMP: When the victims were shot, people were shot, do you know where they were? Were they standing, were they running away, were they hiding, where were they?

MR P DE CASTRO: No, when I got back into the shop they had been shot just there where they were, or when I last saw them alive with their hands in the air, they had been shot on that same place.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, can you give any explanation why your shop or your supermarket was attacked at that specific time and place?

MR P DE CASTRO: I don't for a second believe this was politically, I think this was done for the purpose of getting money or financial gains for their own gain, because if you want to create havoc under a community you choose the busiest time when that place or business or whatever is frequented by a large amount of customers.

MR STEENKAMP: And was this such a time? Can you elaborate on that?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes, we had been - from round about that same day, on the Saturday of the 3rd of July, we had been busy from round about 8 o'clock up until about seven in the evening and our main business was about 90% black. And that was the end of the month as well, it's when everybody gets paid and that is the busiest time of the month.

We usually used to close, on a Saturday evening we usually close five to nine, ten to nine but that day we were unfortunately still open because some of my brother's family which were present there, were waiting for him to go home because they were going to have a braai and that's why that specific day there was so much people, or that time there was so much people in the shop. At that time normally there would only be myself and my brother to close the business and there would be nobody else at the shop at that specific time.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, do you know how much money you had in the shop at that stage?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell the Committee?

MR P DE CASTRO: Plus minus R200 000.

MR STEENKAMP: And where was this money kept?

MR P DE CASTRO: The money was kept on the, some on the safe and some under the tills.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know if any person in your shop was armed? Do you normally carry any firearms?

MR P DE CASTRO: At that stage I didn't even have a licence for a gun, nor did my brother.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, you heard the evidence of some of the applicants, that apparently you were the Chairperson of the AWB, or at least you belonged to the AWB. Did anybody, including yourself, ever belong to any right-wing organisations, as far as you are aware of?

MR P DE CASTRO: At no stage did I belong to any political organisation. That is the last thing I would ever do as a businessman. That would be very detrimental to my business. So I never got involved in politics and that's proven, that's why we had so much support from the black community. I mean the black wouldn't have bought from Wesselsbron Supermarket if I was an AWB or involved with the AWB.

MR STEENKAMP: That was my next question. Can you describe just briefly, what was your relationship with the local community there? Did you have any problems previously and how long had you had this shop before this incident?

MR P DE CASTRO: By then I'd had the shop for six years and we never had any problems whatsoever in that business.

MR STEENKAMP: I know this is maybe a difficult question, but as far as you know, did any AWB members ever visit your shop, or people that looked like AWB supporters, as far as you know?

MR P DE CASTRO: I don't know what the difference is between AWB and another human being. I was never involved in politics and I don't want to know about politics. My concern was to make a living and to survive at the end of the day, and to see that my business would run smooth. I had no time to differentiate people. Whether he was AWB or PAC or NP, I wouldn't know.

MR STEENKAMP: When the attackers attacked your shop did they indicate whether they are PAC or APLA people? Did they wear clothes or did they shout slogans, anything like this?

MR P DE CASTRO: Not at all, they were actually very smartly dressed that day. Mr Bhani was dressed, had a leather jacket on, a black leather jacket with smart trousers on. And I mean, if he was an army fighter or a soldier like he said here in front of the Commission, he should have had an army uniform or an APLA fighting uniform on you know, to show the people that they were soldiers. So to my mind they were never soldiers, they were doing it for the purpose of robbing money for their own use.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, can you tell what the effect of this attack was on you and your family?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well it's been very much detrimental to us because I mean, we had a, myself and my wife we had two kids, one being a six month's baby and one a three year old and that's, you know I've lost my kids now because now they're permanently staying at my in-laws because I cannot cope with the kids and the business. And you know, I mean I loved my wife and you know I've lost my loved one and I'll never forget that you know.

MR STEENKAMP: Anything else you would like to add Mr de Castro, and tell the Committee?

MR P DE CASTRO: I'd actually like to tell the Committee that these guys are all lying to us because from their evidence which I've been listening to since yesterday, nothing that they say makes sense. If they were soldiers and fighting for the freedom of people, they should have done it in another manner. There's no use or there's no need to take other people's lives for liberating a country or whatever.

Another thing that I'd like to make clear is that if they were fighting for the PAC or APLA, whatever, and they wanted to cause havoc within a community, why do they come to place where usually or 99.9% there would only be two people closing that business. That clearly states that they were coming to that supermarket with the intention to rob, because at that time it wasn't trading time, it was closing time. Normally at that time we were already closed. So that clearly shows to everybody that their intention was to come and rob money.

Thirdly I'd like to contest their amnesty applications. I don't think they really deserve amnesty for what they did. They clearly stated here to the Commission that their main objective was money but then come on and they talk about politics. I don't even know if they know what politics is, I really don't.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr de Castro. No further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to start cross-examining?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't think I would like to start now. If I'm going to be I wouldn't like to stop in the middle and then we adjourn. I would rather start ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, in the light of the possible difficulties of getting back to the prison we will adjourn now until half nine tomorrow.