DAY : 2

CHAIRPERSON: Before proceeding this morning, I would like to place on record our sincere disappointment at not being able to commence these proceedings at 9 o'clock as we had arranged yesterday to do.

The applicant was not brought in time by the prison authorities, for various reasons. Whatever the reason was, valuable time has been lost and inconvenience has been caused to a number of people apart from just the Members of the Committee. If anything can be done to avoid loss of time such as this, in future we've got to try and do that and avoid unnecessary waste of time.

Well for the time being I think I have said enough in that regard. Just to once again say that I am thoroughly disappointed that we weren't able to make a beginning.

What is the position this morning? Mr Fortuin?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, the victim's families wanted to call two witnesses who indicated that they will turn up this morning, unfortunately they didn't turn up. It is now my instructions Mr Chairperson, that the victim's will stand with what they have presented to the Commission. As the court pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that this matter must now stand down, that we cannot take this matter any further this morning?

MR FORTUIN: I understand that would correct Mr Chairperson, that we will then proceed as discussed, on Thursday.

MS GOSO: I confirm that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR MAPOMA: I confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter of Mr Maduna will not proceed this morning. It is a pity that it was not possible to take this decision earlier. We might have done all this in the absence of Mr Maduna who has been brought here after all kinds of inconvenience to everybody. Will steps be taken to ensure that he is brought here on time on Thursday, and will it be conveyed to the prison authorities that we would require him here at 9 o'clock on Thursday morning? Will you undertake to do that?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I will do that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, he may be removed and taken back to wherever he is required to be taken to. This matter is now adjourned for the time being until Thursday morning.

You are excused from further attendance if you do not wish to remain here.

MR FORTUIN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

DAY : 2

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, the next matter will that of Andile Shiceka, Walter Tanda and Gcinikhaya Makoma. They are all represented by Mr Norman Arendse. He is available for us to proceed, and the applicants are also here.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear what you said?

MR MAPOMA: He is available Chairperson, he is here.

CHAIRPERSON: He is here.

MR MAPOMA: And the applicants are also here.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we make a beginning?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, Honourable Members of the Committee, I appear together with my colleague, Advocate Vuyani Ngalwana: N-G-A-L-W-A-N-A. Both of us are from the Cape Bar. We appear on behalf of the three applicants in this matter, Andile Shiceka, Walter Tanda and Gcinikhaya Makoma.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, if I may with your leave, just arrange the order in which the matter appears in front of you in the bundle, purely for the sake of convenience. If I may call Walter Tanda first and then Makoma second, and then lastly, Shiceka.

You will notice from the bundle that the matter in respect of which the applicants appear together, either one or both of them, are only in respect of the second, the Khayelitsha Train Station attack, and then the last one, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle attack. Apart from that, Tanda and Shiceka appear very much on their own. I propose dealing with the last one first, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack, where Tanda and Makoma appear together.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Mr Chairman, there is next to me, Mr Warner who appears for one of the victims. I would ask him to place himself on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Warner? I'm sorry I overlooked you Mr Warner.

MR WARNER: I appear on behalf of Miss Amanda Warner, one of the victims in the Claremont Stake Restaurant Shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So the present application, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack is not concerned?

MR WARNER: Not at all Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Very well, thank you very much.

MR WARNER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do proceed Mr Arendse.

MR ARENDSE: Mr Chairperson, if I may call one, Walter Falibango Tanda.

WALTER FALIBANGO TANDA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Will he be given evidence for an interpreter?

EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE: Yes, Chairperson. Thank

you Chairperson.

Mr Tanda, what is your age?

MR TANDA: I am 38 years old.

MR ARENDSE: What are you doing at the moment, are you working, and if so, where are you working?

MR TANDA: I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Walmasdal(?), Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear his answer. I'm sorry about that. Is he speaking in the mike?

MR TANDA: I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what was the answer?

MR ARENDSE: Please repeat the answer.

MR TANDA: I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now? He is serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you.

And you said just before that, that your age was 38?

MR TANDA: Yes, I'm 38 years old.

MR ARENDSE: When you're not in the army, where do you stay?

MR TANDA: I stay at Molteno in the Eastern Cape in number 1184 in New Location.

MR ARENDSE: How long have you now been in the army, in the Defence Force?

MR TANDA: I started on the 1st of July this year, 1998.

MR ARENDSE: Before July 1998, what was your status, what was your position?

MR TANDA: I was in prison. I was released on the 3rd of June. I received amnesty.

MR ARENDSE: In respect of which offence?

MR TANDA: It's about the Newcastle Crazy Disco Attack.

MR ARENDSE: When did that attack happen?

MR TANDA: That was in 1994 on the 14th of February.

MR ARENDSE: That attack is also mentioned by you in your amnesty application, is that correct?

MR TANDA: That is correct.

MR ARENDSE: Just for the record, Chairperson, I refer to page 32 of the record.

Did you go to school Walter?

MR TANDA: A little bit.

MR ARENDSE: What do you mean by a little bit, until what standard did you go to school?

MR TANDA: I went up until standard two. Due to some problems in the family I couldn't go on.

MR ARENDSE: When did you leave school?

MR TANDA: It was in 1972.

MR ARENDSE: In 1972. And since 1972, what did you do?

MR TANDA: I was doing nothing, I was just sitting at home.

MR ARENDSE: Did you become involved in politics at all?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: And when was that? When did you become involved in politics for the first time?

MR TANDA: That was in 1982. In 1990 I became - In 1982 I was involved with the PAC and then in 1990 I became the member of the Azanian People's Liberation Army.

MR ARENDSE: How did you become involved with what is referred to as APLA? How did you become involved? Did you join out of your own, were you asked to join?

MR TANDA: I was recruited and I was also satisfied because I could see that that was a way for me to fight for liberation.

MR ARENDSE: Is the reason why you joined APLA, or tell us why you joined APLA.

MR TANDA: The reason for me to join APLA, I realised that the African land was taken from them and they were victims and they were being oppressed. They were victimised by the South African Police and even the South African Defence Force was victimising them. So I saw the need for me to get involved with the APLA and be part of the people who are going to liberate Africa, to protect, to liberate Africans from the apartheid regime.

MR ARENDSE: And how were you going to do that, how were you going to liberate the African people from the regime?

MR TANDA: I had to obey the orders from the commander of APLA and be involved in the operations.

MR ARENDSE: Okay. Now tell us about the - the operations that you were involved in, we know now you were involved in the New Caste Crazy Beat Disco matter, where you applied for amnesty and you have been granted amnesty. We know about that one. Now the others in respect of which you are applying for amnesty are some of the ones we are going to deal with today.

Now before we do that, can you just perhaps tell the Committee, you were born in the Eastern Cape, did you at any stage come to Cape Town?

MR TANDA: I once came to Cape Town when I was deployed here in 1990 although I was born in the Eastern Cape in Molteno.

MR ARENDSE: Who deployed you?

MR TANDA: The only names that I know is Mzala, Mandla and Jones. Those were the names that I was using, we were using for the comrade who deployed me here in Cape Town.

MR ARENDSE: Are those three different comrades or they one and the same person, this Mandla, Power, Jones or are they different persons?

MR TANDA: It's one person but we were using different code names. For security reasons we were using different code names for one person.

MR ARENDSE: When is the last time that you saw this person who has these various names?

CHAIRPERSON: And by what name are we going to be referring to him here?

MR ARENDSE: When last did you Mandla, Power, Mzala or Jones? You've said they are one and the same person.

MR TANDA: I last saw him in 1994, in 1994 when he was giving me instructions to go to Natal in Newcastle. After that I was arrested, I couldn't see him again.

MR ARENDSE: Now when you were deployed to Cape Town or to come to Cape Town, what were your instructions? Can you tell us what your instructions were?

MR TANDA: The instruction was to recruit Africans and establish APLA units and train comrades for the task force, the task force that would defend the members of the PAC and to ensure no enemies infiltrate the PAC, and to ensure that the APLA soldiers who are coming, I should welcome those and make sure that the operations here in Cape Town are going on.

MR ARENDSE: Were you also instructed to carry out any operations?

MR TANDA: That is so.

MR ARENDSE: When you instructed to carry out operations, who were to be the targets? The operations were to be carried out against whom?

MR TANDA: Our targets were people like the SAP, SADF and whites because those were the people who were oppressing the Africans. As everyone knows about this history of South Africa, that the land of the Africans were taken from the Africans. We never had rights as Africans in South Africa.

MR ARENDSE: The targets, whose task was it to identify the targets?

MR TANDA: The commander of the unit was the one who would take a decision about the target to be attacked and monitor that target.

MR ARENDSE: So these targets which we're going to deal with now, would it be correct that you were responsible for identifying them as targets, in your capacity as unit commander?

MR TANDA: That is so.

MR ARENDSE: Now let's deal with the first one: The Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack in Zolo Budd Road or Drive, I think it's also referred to. This happened towards the end of 1992, is that correct?

MR TANDA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: You were involved in the attack with someone by the name of Mtura: M-T-U-R-A, and together with Gcinikhaya Makoma, is that correct?

MR TANDA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Tell us about the attack, how did it come about?

MR TANDA: The two people here, Mtura and one comrade and the third comrade was Gcinikhaya Makoma. Mtura came in the company of one comrade. When they came I had to contact Mzala as my commander. I wanted to know what was happening. I wanted to know whether these comrades were here to work in Cape Town.

I later realised that they were supposed to work in the area of Transvaal. Mtura said these comrades should go. They were to be involved in an operation and leave Cape Town thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Which comrade was supposed to go?

MR TANDA: It was Mtura and one other comrade, I don't know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you said: "Mtura said that these comrades should go".

MR TANDA: It is Mandla who said I must involve them in an operation. It's Mandla who was my commander.

MR ARENDSE: So do I understand you correctly that Mtura and one other person came to your house and Mandla then instructed you to involve the two of them in this particular operation?

MR TANDA: That is correct, that is so.

MR ARENDSE: So it would have been you, Mtura, the other person who is not known to you, and Makoma. The four of you were involved in this operation?

MR TANDA: That is correct.

MR ARENDSE: Were all of them members of APLA?

MR TANDA: Mtura and the other comrade were a members of APLA and Gcinikhaya Makoma was still receiving training from the task force. He was a very disciplined person and also obedient.

MR ARENDSE: How did Makoma become involved in this operation? Was he also instructed by Mzala or did you instruct him, how did he get involved?

MR TANDA: I'm the person who instructed him to be involved, to get involved because we needed a person who was going to give a signal when the other people would be busy doing something else. Makoma and the other comrade were there to give a signal whenever the police van was coming from the bushes. If it's coming from Makoma's side, therefore he would give a signal and if it was coming from the direction of the other comrade the other comrade would also give a signal because we wouldn't see it coming.

MR ARENDSE: So the operation was to attack a police van, is that correct?

MR TANDA: That is correct.

MR ARENDSE: You attacked the van with weapons?

MR TANDA: Yes, that is correct.

MR ARENDSE: Tell us about the weapons used during this attack.

MR TANDA: I used an R4 rifle, Mtura had an R4 rifle and I gave Gcinikhaya Makoma an AK47 and I gave the other comrade an AK47.

MR ARENDSE: And just tell us about the operation itself, did it take place, what time of the day did it take place?

MR TANDA: It was late in the night. I'm not sure about the time, but it was late in the night.

MR ARENDSE: And did you fire on the van?

MR TANDA: Yes, I shot at the vehicle and Mtura did so, though my firearm locked.

MR ARENDSE: So was it only you and Mtura who shot at the van?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: What was the purpose of the attack, why did you attack the van?

MR TANDA: The purpose, we wanted to hit the police van and when it stops and I would issue an order to those people who were therefore signal, I would order them to disarm these police so as to get more weapons for the other soldiers.

MR ARENDSE: When you shot at the van did the van stop?

MR TANDA: No, it did not stop because my firearm locked when it was supposed to release the third bullet. So the operation was not successful because the van couldn't stop.

MR ARENDSE: So you regarded this as an unsuccessful operation?

MR TANDA: Yes, that's correct.

MR ARENDSE: Did you report the operation to the APLA High Command?

MR TANDA: Yes, after that I phoned Mzala and I told him about this operation and I told him that the operation was not successful. I told him that Mtura and the other comrade left Cape Town. They left Cape Town the following day.

MR ARENDSE: And what happened to Makoma?

MR TANDA: After the operation I released Gcinikhaya Makoma to go back to his family.

MR ARENDSE: Was Makoma from Cape Town?

MR TANDA: Yes, he was residing at Site C.

MR ARENDSE: Do you know what happened - you shot at the van, do you know whether - I take it you hit the van?

MR TANDA: Yes, though I'm not sure whether anyone was injured but I'm sure that no-one died there during that attack.

MR ARENDSE: Okay.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Arendse.

Mr Tanda, did the shots hit the body of the police vehicle?

MR TANDA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You fired two shots, then you AK47 locked, is that what you said?

MR TANDA: It locked when it was supposed to release the third bullet, my firearm locked.

ADV SANDI: Mtura had also fired a shot at the vehicle?

MR TANDA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR ARENDSE: Walter, were you charged criminally with this particular offence?

MR TANDA: No.

MR ARENDSE: Did you go to court for it?

MR TANDA: No, I never appeared but I am the one who released that information when I was filling in the application form. I was never charged for the offence.

MR ARENDSE: Maybe we can just move on then to the next offence in respect of which you seek amnesty. This is the Cross Roads Police Attack.

Now your orders you received from Mzala, is that correct? Directly?

MR TANDA: Yes, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For this particular attack?

MR TANDA: I got order from Mzala because I used to connect with him telephonically and he said I must involve Africans in operations.

MR ARENDSE: Did it also include the Cross Roads Police Attack?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: Now is it correct that you carried out this particular attack?

MR TANDA: I do not want to say the attack was successfully carried out but I must say that there were people who were killed because the intention of the attack was to disarm those people.

MR ARENDSE: Now you were accompanied during this attack by other persons, who were they?

MR TANDA: I was with Simon and Graham.

MR ARENDSE: Do you know them by any other name?

MR TANDA: No.

MR ARENDSE: When is the last time you saw either or both of them?

MR TANDA: After that I used to meet them and I last saw them in 1993 when I left Cape Town.

MR ARENDSE: They're not here today, just for the record? They're not here today?

MR TANDA: Yes, they are not here.

MR ARENDSE: Where did you meet them? I'm coming back to before the attack now, where did you meet them?

MR TANDA: They were Africans that I used to work with, that is Graham and another member. We used to train under ...[inaudible]

MR ARENDSE: Were they members of your unit or were they from some other unit or were they deployed to Cape Town to assist you?

MR TANDA: No, they were under my command.

MR ARENDSE: In your unit?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: When - you said earlier that you were, as commander of the unit you were responsible for identifying the targets, was this particular attack also as a result of your identification of the target?

MR TANDA: It is I who identified the target.

MR ARENDSE: Now the target in this case were two policeman or what you thought were policemen, is that right?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: And this particular incident happened not far from the Cross Roads police Station, is that correct?

MR TANDA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Why did you think that the two person you attacked were policemen?

MR TANDA: You see policemen use a uniform and their uniform is different to other uniforms. The general public do not wear uniforms.

MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, just for the record, if the Committee peruses the police docket in this matter, it appears from the photographs in the docket that both the deceased were wearing blue coloured uniforms.

Now these two policemen, they were not in a vehicle, they were walking, they were on foot, is that right?

MR TANDA: Yes, correct.

MR ARENDSE: Where were they walking?

MR TANDA: In front of other some shacks, moving from the direction of the police station of Cross Roads. When I saw them I said we must go between the shacks and Graham and Simon must be on the side of the police station with the intention to have someone giving me some firing cover, in order to prevent policemen who might appear later, from assassinating me.

They came on as they were moving on foot and they were within reach of my fire. When they were within reach I then shot at them with an AK47. When they fell I said to Graham he must disarm them. We gave Graham firing cover and when that happened a kombi appeared and it lit directly in our direction, that is where I said: "Let us withdraw", because I was avoiding a situation of us being identified.

MR ARENDSE: Now ...[intervention]

MR TANDA: ...[no English translation] to avoid the people in the kombi identifying us because it had lit on us at the time.

MR ARENDSE: Why did you shoot at these policemen, were they armed?

MR TANDA: You see a policeman in uniform, it becomes a very unusual thing that he walks around without his weapon whilst he is in uniform. The uniform is also - you wear a uniform plus your firearm generally, that's what I know.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, you told Graham to disarm them, did Graham disarm them? Did he recover or get any arms from them?

MR TANDA: No, he could not get any weapons from them because when that happened a kombi appeared and then I said we must retreat.

MR ARENDSE: So you don't know whether they were in fact armed or not?

MR TANDA: That is correct. As I've said, to a policeman his uniform is together with his firearm and I saw that there were people coming from the police station in uniform, I thought they must be armed as they are on duty. They were on duty at the time.

MR ARENDSE: Now after the attack you, Graham was unable to search them and find out whether in fact they had arms, what did you do then?

MR TANDA: We returned to the house we used. If I want to see somebody I would use that house as a shack(?) point. That is where we returned to.

MR ARENDSE: Where was this house?

MR TANDA: At Site C.

MR ARENDSE: At Site C in Khayelitsha?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: I'm not sure whether it's still the case, but at the time it was a squatter camp, is that right?

MR TANDA: It is still a shack place.

MR ARENDSE: Now do you know what happened to these policemen or these two persons?

MR TANDA: You see, the following day I woke up the following morning and went to where this attack occurred and I looked around and I noticed that indeed two policemen were lying there and the public had gathered there and investigation officers were on the scene. After that I reported the matter, the whole operation to Mzala.

MR ARENDSE: What did you say to Mzala?

MR TANDA: I told him that two policemen had passed away in that operation and that that operation can be claimed under APLA, though the weapons and the ammunition used could not be retrieved from the policemen because we were disturbed by that kombi that lit on us.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Arendse.

That kombi, the kombi you're talking about, did it come and stop there at the scene where these police were shot?

MR TANDA: It was on the road. The driver stopped the kombi and lit directly at the area where this whole operation was on.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but it came and passed?

MR TANDA: No, it did not pass, it stopped.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: A bit strange isn't it? This happened late at night, the kombi arrives, they see policemen shot, they do nothing about it, because the next morning you go there and the policemen are still lying there. That is strange isn't it?

MR TANDA: Yes, it may surprise you, though I do not know why those people did not go and report this matter and why those policemen were still lying on the road even the following morning. I would not know.

ADV SANDI: This shack Mr Tanda, you say you went back to, was some sort of a hide-out for you?

MR TANDA: Yes, it was a place I used. Even before we go on operations, that is where we meet to discuss and then from there we move to whatever scene of operation.

ADV SANDI: How far was that shack from the place where the police had been shot?

MR TANDA: Site C is at Khayelitsha and the policemen were attacked at Cross Roads, next to the Cross Roads Police Station.

ADV SANDI: You mean to say that the - I want to be sure that I understand you clearly, you mean to say that the shack was far from the scene where the police had been shot?

MR TANDA: Yes, far.

DR TSOTSI: The place where the police fell, was that a public road? The road where you shot the policemen, was that a public road or a private road?

MR TANDA: Yes, it was a footpath but where you could use a car also because it was an open veld of sorts.

ADV SANDI: Did it have lights or was it dark in that area?

MR TANDA: There are lights at Cross Roads, that's why I could see them from a distance and said we must hide, using a shack as our cover. And where we were there was no bright lighting. It was darkish but you could see someone from a distance.

ADV SANDI: How did you see the colour and type of uniform these two people were wearing?

MR TANDA: I saw it when these people were in the street between the houses made of bricks, going towards the direction of the shacks.

CHAIRPERSON: You say: "street", is that the same thing that you talked about as a footpath?

MR TANDA: If you can see the police station at Cross Roads there is a street from the police station and then a street going this way towards the houses made of bricks. There is a street that crosses towards the shacks.

CHAIRPERSON: The point was this that I heard the word: "footpath" being given as the place where the shooting was done. Was it a footpath which was sometimes used by motorcars as you said, or is it a street that is well lit?

MR TANDA: I said when I answered this question, that people on foot can walk on it, even a person can use a car to drive because it's an open field of sort.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is not a street?

MR TANDA: No, it is not a street.

MR ARENDSE: Mr Tanda, were you watching these two persons for while, and if so for how long were you watching them?

MR TANDA: I saw them when they were approaching, going over this open veld like place. As I had my weapon on my body when they were coming I took cover with the shacks with the intent to position myself properly so that when they appear nearer to us I can then use my weapon.

MR ARENDSE: When you saw them for the first time, were they walking in a street where you could see them?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: And the street itself, was it, did it have lights?

MR TANDA: Yes, there are very long poles at Cross Roads that light up the location. Where they were coming from they have those lights, that's how I could see they were wearing police uniforms, and then I positioned myself between the shacks.

MR ARENDSE: So would it be correct to say that you observed them for a good few minutes before you decided to attack them at or near the footpath which the Chairperson is referring to and to which you referred to?

MR TANDA: Yes, I did look at them for some time but it is not a long time. I could then prepare myself to tell these Africans how they must position themselves in preparation of an attack.

MR ARENDSE: Were you the only one who shot at the two persons involved?

MR TANDA: Yes, myself alone.

MR ARENDSE: Are you sure that none of Simon or Graham shot at them?

MR TANDA: Yes, I'm certain.

ADV SANDI: Did they tell you that Mr Tanda, did they say to you they did not open fire at these two policemen?

MR TANDA: As I say, they gave me firing cover. This means they were keeping watch over my back. It is - the target was in front of me alone, it was I who was in close range with the target.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the identities of these two victims ever revealed to you?

MR TANDA: You mean, what do you mean Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Their names, where they come from, details of that kind.

MR TANDA: No, I only got to know that they were policemen.

MR ARENDSE: Mr Tanda, is it correct that we also know now that of the two, only one was a policeman and the other one was an employee of Spoornet and that information you got from your legal representatives after they went through the police docket?

MR TANDA: Correct, I got that information from my attorney.

MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, just for the record, it also appears from the photographs that the deceased is still clothed in a Spoornet uniform which is also a blue uniform but which has a distinctive yellow Spoornet marking on the left shoulder.

Mr Tanda, were you arrested at all in connection with this particular incident?

MR TANDA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Did you appear in court in connection with the incident?

MR TANDA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How soon after this incident were you arrested?

MR TANDA: I was arrested in 1994, in February 1994 during the attack of Crazy Disco at Newcastle.

MR ARENDSE: Now you appeared in court in connection with this case several times in Mitchells Plain Court, is that correct?

MR TANDA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: And the case was withdrawn against you?

MR TANDA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What about your two colleagues, were they also arrested?

MR TANDA: No, they were not arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was the case withdrawn?

MR TANDA: I cannot remember the date but it was during 1995.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in custody throughout that period or where you on bail?

MR TANDA: I had been sentenced for 25 years for the case I had done at Newcastle and the case at Cape Town was a further charge.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. So what you're really saying is whilst that other case involved you, you were making appearances in this matter here and the case was withdrawn. I see. Alright, carry on.

DR TSOTSI: Why was it withdrawn?

MR TANDA: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Why?

MR TANDA: I cannot answer the question on behalf of the one who acquitted me, who withdrew the case. I'm sorry.

DR TSOTSI: You were not given a reason why the case was withdrawn?

MR TANDA: What I noticed during the whole time of my appearance in court was that those who led the case, the investigators and so on, they did not go to court. I think therefore that that could be the reason why the case was withdrawn.

DR TSOTSI: Maybe Mr Arendse can help us there.

MR ARENDSE: I'm afraid I can't. Presumably because by that time Mr Tanda had already been found guilty and sentenced to 25 years in connection with the Newcastle matter and I take it the investigators didn't think that it's worthwhile pursuing the matter any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed please.

MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, just for the record, it also appears from the docket that an inquest was held into the deaths of the two persons involved and the finding was that the inquest court couldn't find on the evidence who the person or person responsible was or were for the deaths of these two persons.

Mr Tanda, how do you - you're now sitting here in 1998, this incident happened towards the end of 1992, you killed human beings, two persons, one a policeman and one an employee of Spoornet. We don't know but presumably they had family, wives, children, dependants, how do you feel about the fact that you killed these two persons?

MR TANDA: Firstly, I want to say, regarding the victim who was walking with the policeman, if his family members or his dependants or wife or whosoever that I'm feeling very remorseful because the clothes he was wearing at the time looked very much like that of a policeman. And to the family and his relatives I want to apologise. The incident happened more because he was walking with a policeman. I want to apologise to his family.

Also to the policeman, although we know that the police during the time of apartheid, their families even though they were working, doing things against their nation, they understand that but I want to apologise to them and want to say that that time was a time of conflict, we were fighting against the government. I think this time is a time of reconciliation and would ask their families to hold hands with us, and this is no more a time of conflict, thank you.

MR ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, with your leave if I could move onto the next incident. The next incident is the Khayelitsha Train Station Attack, with appears from pages 9 through to 23 of the bundle, Mr Chairman.

Were you involved in this attack at all Mr Tanda?

MR TANDA: No.

MR ARENDSE: You are mentioned as part of this attack, did you know about it?

MR TANDA: No, I was not involved.

MR ARENDSE: Did you know who was involved or who were involved?

MR TANDA: You see, I was not part of the planning. Even in the execution of the attack I was not there.

MR ARENDSE: Did you know the persons involved in the attack?

MR TANDA: Yes, I knew Andile as Thabo, and I knew Chicken Licken as Chicken Licken, and I knew Maka Songe as DK. I want to confirm that I know them as APLA members.

MR ARENDSE: The last matter that I want to refer to is the one involving the Guguletu Police Attack at NY108. Chairperson, it is not referred to specifically as one of the incidents before you. If you look at the index on the front page, it is not one of the four incidents but it is mentioned by Mr Tanda in his application on page 32, paragraph 9(a) III. There's reference there to Newcastle, which is the Newcastle Crazy Beat Disco matter, then the Khayelitsha, Zola Budd Road or Drive matter which we've dealt with, and then one sees 108 Road (Guguletu), and then plus Old Cross Road, which is the one which we've also dealt with already.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR ARENDSE: Just for the record Mr Tanda, I'm just showing you a copy of your application, is that in your handwriting?

MR TANDA: No, I was assisted by Mpahlele.

MR ARENDSE: Is the 108 Road that you see there, and in brackets (Guguletu), is the incident involving the attack on the police at NY108?

MR TANDA: The 108 issue - oh, the 108 is the road from Guguletu and connected the one to the airport through Nyanga Cross Roads and so on.

MR ARENDSE: Now is it correct that this particular attack or operation was carried out in January 1993?

MR TANDA: That's correct.

MR ARENDSE: You were in charge of a unit which comprised Shiceka, the person referred to by you as Chicken Licken and one, DK, and also a person by the name of Scorpion, is that correct?

MR TANDA: The commander of the unit was Chicken Licken. Oh, the one commanding Chicken Licken, DK and Scorpion was Andile Shiceka, the one I knew as Thabo at the time and Scorpion are involved in the operation because at the time I did not want to use people who were based in Cape Town in my unit. So that when any person is wanted by the police that person would not be able to leave Cape Town easily. So it is Andile Shiceka who ran the unit.

MR ARENDSE: But in the operation itself in January 1993, it was only you and Scorpion that were involved in the operation?

MR TANDA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the other names that he mentioned, why are they mentioned then?

MR ARENDSE: Perhaps Mr Tanda, you can just repeat why the other names are mentioned to you, Shiceka, Chicken Licken and DK, why were they not involved in the actual operation?

MR TANDA: The reason, I only wanted someone to assist me as part of my manpower, I did not want a unit. You see, the reason why all of these words are mentioned is because, so as to explain where Scorpion was coming from, which unit he was coming from. All of them were my visitors.

CHAIRPERSON: So to say that in January 1993, yourself, Shiceka, Chicken Licken, DK and Scorpion were involved, that's not correct?

MR TANDA: DK, Chicken Licken and Andile were not there, it was myself and Scorpion.

MR ARENDSE: Is it - just to correct that because I probably put it wrongly to you, you were together as a group, you yourself, Shiceka, Chicken Licken and DK and Scorpion, you were together as a group but in terms of carrying out the operation it was only you and Scorpion who were involved in this particular operation?

MR TANDA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Now, during this operation you attacked a yellow police van, is that correct, in NY108?

MR TANDA: That is correct.

MR ARENDSE: What time of the day was it?

MR TANDA: It was late in the night. I'm not sure about the time and the date.

MR ARENDSE: Why did you attack the van?

MR TANDA: The intention was to get arms as we knew that police were patrolling with arms.

MR ARENDSE: Did you decide to attack the van?

MR TANDA: Yes. I am the one who took that decision, though I got the mandate from Mzala. As I've already explained I was responsible for APLA soldiers who were coming.

I was there to welcome them and train them so as to be ready for the operation and I had to ensure that they were armed. I would select the target to be disarmed. I later heard that one policeman died, the one who was driving.

MR ARENDSE: You were armed, were you armed with an AK47 or with an R4 rifle?

MR TANDA: I was armed with an R4 rifle and I gave another R4 rifle to Scorpion.

MR ARENDSE: Did both of you shoot at the van?

MR TANDA: No, I'm the only one who shot at the van. He was there to assist me if there was any resistance or shooting back. Because in such an operation it is important not to act at the same time if it's not necessary.

MR ARENDSE: So would it be correct to say that you take sole responsibility for the death of this one policeman during this attack?

MR TANDA: Yes, that is correct. Though the APLA have taken all the responsibility for any actions of APLA, but as the commander on that particular day, on this particular operation I'm taking the responsibility. I am even prepared to meet with the families of the victims.

MR ARENDSE: How do you feel about what happened during this attack, now that you know that one policeman, probably a black policeman, was killed during that attack?

MR TANDA: As I've already said initially, I heard that something happened during apartheid regime but now it's a new era. I am prepared to shake hands with the families of the victims because I know now that we are in the new era, we are no longer fighting.

MR ARENDSE: Were you arrested in connection with this incident?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: When were you arrested and where were you when you were arrested?

MR TANDA: I was arrested in 1994 during the attack at Newcastle. That was one of the cases that we used to appear in the Mitchell's Plain Court.

MR ARENDSE: So you also appeared in court in connection with this case on several occasions?

MR TANDA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: And this case too was withdrawn against you?

MR TANDA: Yes, that is correct.

MR ARENDSE: Do you know why it was withdrawn against you?

MR TANDA: As I was not in a position to explain that before, I can only speculate. During the times of apartheid the lives of the black people didn't have any value. Maybe that was one of the reasons because the police who were involved in that case didn't attend the court.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that even black policemen didn't attach any value to black life?

MR TANDA: The reason for me to say that, in this case of Newcastle ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please be requested to speak a little bit louder and in front of the mike. It is very difficult for the interpreters to hear.

MR TANDA: The reason for me to say that, in most cases that affected whites at the time were fully attended easily but those that were affecting the black people, they were not even there to attend. They were just using the black policemen to defend the apartheid regime.

MR ARENDSE: Mr Tanda, just tell us again. At the moment you serve in the SANDF, in the Defence Force?

MR TANDA: That's correct.

MR ARENDSE: How do you - this is a general question, how do you see your life at present, currently? How do you see your life at the moment and where do you see yourself going?

MR TANDA: I'll try and respond to your question although it is a very difficult question.

I look like a child who is just born and I was in prison, involved in other things, and to me it's like a new life. I'm not yet prepared to say whether I'm going forward or backwards but I am prepared. I wish to go on and lead a normal life just like other people.

MR ARENDSE: I just want to comment on this. There is a general criticism from certain members of the public that where amnesty is granted to people like yourself, where you've killed other people, that you are being let loose on the public and that you are likely to commit the same offences again, do you want to comment on that?

MR TANDA: I can say the people of South Africa must know that we were involved in the struggle because I was mentally disturbed but I was there to liberate the nation that was oppressed.

As I'm saying, the times of conflict is gone now and we are living with people. Wherever we live, we live just like other normal people. And secondly, they mustn't think that a revolution wasn't there, we were just pushing a revolution, because even the liberation that the people are talking about today, no matter who can say what, we've got to admit that those were the bullets of APLA, AZAPO and MK that managed to put us where we are today.

We must not forget that because everyone knows that there are members of APLA who are in jails today and the members of Azania and ANC and MK. They are there because they wanted to liberate their nation and therefore they see us as people who are troublesome by trying to liberate our nation.

MR ARENDSE: Then just lastly, did you gain materially, did you gain anything, did you profit, did you make a profit from committing these offences?

MR TANDA: In APLA everyone was a volunteer. We were not benefitting anything after an operation. We were involved in the operations because we loved our nation so much. The only people who benefitted is the nation that was oppressed at the time.

MR ARENDSE: Just like lastly and finally, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How many times is that final?

MR ARENDSE: Just this once.

What is your attitude towards white people in this country, who live in this country, your compatriots?

MR TANDA: In politics here in South Africa we never hated white people because of their colour as the other people were deceiving, people saying so. We regard white people as our brothers and sisters, but the problem is the system that they were using, the system that the government was using at the time. We don't have any attitude towards them, any bad attitude.

Even now we are with them, we are working with them in the National Defence Force and there is no problem. Even in places where we live we do visit friends who are staying with whites but we don't hate them because of their colour but it's because of their actions during the apartheid regime.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this applicant not involved in the other matters?

MR ARENDSE: I speak under correction, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

Have the identities of your victims, the people that you killed, has that ever been made known to you?

MR TANDA: No, I haven't seen them. I only saw them when I met with my legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand that. I've said the identities of the people that you killed. You say you saw them when you met your legal representative? Just clear that up.

MR ARENDSE: I think he's referring to the information which we got out of the police docket but the names and details of the deceased doesn't appear from there, we just discussed it with Mr Tanda.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to ask?

ADV SANDI: Mr Tanda, just to go back to the Cross Roads Police Attack where you killed those two people, one of whom was a policeman and the other one was an employee of Spoornet. Now you mentioned two names there, that is Graham and Simon. Did you know Graham and Simon before you called them to the house where you were staying at Site C?

MR TANDA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: I notice that in your statement you say that you briefed them in full about the operation, what did you tell them?

MR TANDA: I told them that I want to get an order from comrade Power to start involving people in the operations. I chose Graham and Simon and I told them that we would be going to Cross Roads to check the target that we can disarm with the aim of getting more arms.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the purposes of clearing up the record, you mentioned the word Power, that's the same person as Mzala?

MR TANDA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should one name throughout these proceedings otherwise the record, if it is read by somebody, might be confusing.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairman.

So when you saw these two people you were not really expecting to see them walking in that area, were you?

MR TANDA: As I say the attack didn't take place far from the Cross Road Police Station. I knew that police are patrolling in the community.

ADV SANDI: If you had not come across these two people, what would you have done that evening?

MR TANDA: As I'm talking about the people who were patrolling, I knew that I would get some policemen patrolling in the area. I knew that for sure.

ADV SANDI: Why were the police patrolling the area? Were there any incidents happening in that area?

MR TANDA: If you'd notice that from 1986 up until today, the Cross Roads, time and again there are conflicts among the African people in that area and because of those conflicts the police are there to patrol the areas where the Africans are residing. As in the white areas the police would be there, even if they are there to check on thugs or for whatever reasons but they are there. They are always there patrolling all the time.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Tata.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to put any questions to the applicant?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are excused.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may step down.

AMNESTY HEARING

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling Mr Makoma?

MR ARENDSE: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Makoma, where are you staying at the moment?

MR MAKOMA: I stay at Khayelitsha, Site C.

MR ARENDSE: Do you work?

MR MAKOMA: No, I'm unemployed.

MR ARENDSE: Are you doing anything useful?

MR MAKOMA: I'm studying, I'm corresponding standard ten with a certain college.

MR ARENDSE: What is that college's name?

MR MAKOMA: It's Lyceum College.

MR ARENDSE: How old are you now?

MR MAKOMA: I'm 22 years old.

MR ARENDSE: Now you were involved in an incident with Walter Tanda.

MR MAKOMA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: In 1992, is that right?

MR MAKOMA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: At that time you would have been 16, is that right?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, that's correct.

MR ARENDSE: At the time, were you a member of the PAC?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR ARENDSE: Were you a member of APLA?

MR MAKOMA: No, I was only a member of the task force.

MR ARENDSE: The PAC task force or APLA task force?

MR MAKOMA: The PAC task force, that was the defence unit of the PAC that was being trained by the members of APLA.

MR ARENDSE: Who was the commander of the task force you were a member of?

MR MAKOMA: It was Tanda.

MR ARENDSE: Did he recruit you to join this task force?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, I was recruited by him.

MR ARENDSE: Were you - tell us about, were you at school at the time?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, I was still at school, I was doing standard seven.

MR ARENDSE: Now, this particular incident at Khayelitsha, when did you first become involved in it and how did you become involved in it?

MR MAKOMA: Tanda came at my home, he asked me to go with him as a member of the PAC and as a person who was in the leadership, that was the normal thing for me to do. We went to a certain house at Site C where we found two comrades. He introduced them as PAC members and he told them that I was also a member of PAC.

MR ARENDSE: Did they have names and if so, what were their names? Did he introduce them to you by name or code-name?

MR MAKOMA: He introduced them as members of PAC, he never mentioned their names.

MR ARENDSE: Did you ask their names?

MR MAKOMA: No, I never asked.

MR ARENDSE: Why not, isn't that odd?

MR MAKOMA: It is not a normal thing to do, to know the people with their names. If you are told that these comrades are members of PAC, that should satisfy you. I was not interested in knowing their names.

MR ARENDSE: After you were introduced, what happened then?

MR MAKOMA: Tanda left the house and he said he was coming back.

MR ARENDSE: And he came back?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, he came back.

MR ARENDSE: Did he come back with anything?

MR MAKOMA: He came with a bag, a blue bag with firearms inside.

MR ARENDSE: Did you get a firearm?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, I got an AK47.

MR ARENDSE: Were you going to do anything with this AK47?

MR MAKOMA: He told us after some time that we are going to do something because we checked these firearms, if they were working properly.

MR ARENDSE: Before this, did you handle a firearm before this particular or before he gave the AK47 to you?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, I once handled a firearm.

MR ARENDSE: And that was during training I take it?

MR MAKOMA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: This particular operation, had you been on one like this before or was this your first operation?

MR MAKOMA: That was my first operation.

MR ARENDSE: Did he tell you that you were now going to carry out an operation, this is now Tanda?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, he told us that there is a work that we are going to do.

MR ARENDSE: Did he tell you when it was going to happen, where it was going to happen, who was going to be the object of this operation? Did he give you any details?

MR MAKOMA: No, he never gave details.

MR ARENDSE: So what did you do then, did you leave the place?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, he told us to leave the house and we all left together.

MR ARENDSE: And where did you go to?

MR MAKOMA: We went - we took a direction to Site B, we took the road coming from Site B, we went to Site C. We took a road from Site B to Site C.

MR ARENDSE: Were you on foot or did you drive?

MR MAKOMA: We were on foot.

MR ARENDSE: And when you got to Site C, what happened?

MR MAKOMA: He instructed me - as I was standing next to this road from Site C to Site B on the left-hand site, he instructed me to stand there and if I see the police van I was to give a warning by shooting only once with this AK47.

MR ARENDSE: And did you do so, did you shoot once?

MR MAKOMA: The van never appeared from my direction, it appeared from another direction.

MR ARENDSE: And what happened?

MR MAKOMA: There were gunshots, a lot of them followed, a lot of gunshots and a van passed next to me and it stopped at a distance and Tanda gave an instruction for us to leave the place. We went back to the veld and through the veld we went to Site C.

MR ARENDSE: Did you fire any shots?

MR MAKOMA: No.

MR ARENDSE: Do you know who fired the shots?

MR MAKOMA: It's Tanda and the other comrades, but I don't know among them who shot but I know that they were the people who were shooting because they also had firearms.

MR ARENDSE: Do you know whether anyone was injured or killed during the attack or as a result of the attack?

MR MAKOMA: No, I do not know.

MR ARENDSE: Why did you form part of the attack, why did you become part of the operation? What motivated you to become part of the operation?

MR MAKOMA: As Tanda was the leader of the task and as a member of the PAC, when he came to me and instructed me to do something I went there willingly because I knew that I had a perception that this is done to further the aims of PAC.

MR ARENDSE: Now you - and I'm referring here Chairperson, to page 39 of the bundle.

You also applied for amnesty in respect of the attack on the St James Church in July 1993, is that correct?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, that is so.

MR ARENDSE: You made an application there and also a full disclosure and also motivated why you were involved in that attack, you can remember that?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, I do remember.

MR ARENDSE: And you've been granted amnesty in respect of that incident?

MR MAKOMA: Yes, that is so.

MR ARENDSE: This particular incident, were you arrested at all? Did you appear in court?

MR MAKOMA: No, I was never arrested and I never appeared in court.

MR ARENDSE: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just one Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Makoma, why do you apply for amnesty for this incident, you never shot anyone?

MR MAKOMA: I'm applying for amnesty because I was there, even though I didn't shoot anyone.

MR MAPOMA: Do you associate yourself with the shooting that took place on that day?

MR MAKOMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.

ADV SANDI: Has anyone been able to ascertain what the police docket has got to say about this, what is contained in it? Were there any victims?

MR ARENDSE: Advocate Sandi, no.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I confirm Chairperson, there appears to be no victim in this matter.

DR TSOTSI: Did I understand you to say that you belong to APLA task force, not the PAC task force?

MR MAKOMA: I said, at the time I was a member of PAC and I was also a member of the task force that was being trained by the APLA members in order to defend PAC members.

DR TSOTSI: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you draw a distinction between being a member of the task force of the PAC on the one hand and of APLA on the other? Is there a difference between the task force of the PAC and the task force of APLA?

MR MAKOMA: PAC is a political organisation and APLA is a military wing and a task force is a defence unit but all of them consists of members of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that you're a member of the task force, it would be the task force of APLA or PAC, it's one and the same thing, is that it?

MR MAKOMA: It is a task force of PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.

Unless you have questions to put?

MR ARENDSE: No, I don't.

MR MAKOMA: Thank you.

MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, is this perhaps a convenient point to adjourn before we begin with Mr Shiceka, it's four incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can we make an early beginning please. I've lost a lot of time in this matter. I'd like to have a shorter break for lunch.

MR ARENDSE: As you please Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll break for 45 minutes, Mr Zuko.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Arendse?

MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson, Honourable Members of the Committee. The next applicant is Mr Andile Shiceka, for the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shiceka, are you prepared to take the oath?

ANDILE SHICEKA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: The is a matter in which you are concerned?

MR WARNER: Mr Chairman, I am concerned with the attack on the restaurant in Claremont.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right.

EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.

Andile, where do you stay when you are here in Cape Town, your address?

MR SHICEKA: Guguletu NY72 at 11.

MR ARENDSE: Presently what are you doing, are you working?

MR SHICEKA: I'm undergoing training, South African Airforce at flight 6 in Pretoria.

MR ARENDSE: In which department or which section?

MR SHICEKA: Mustering of personnel.

MR ARENDSE: Did you have any schooling and if so, up to which standard did you go? Did you complete your schooling?

MR SHICEKA: I passed my standard 10. Right now I'm busy with my BA Public Administration Degree.

MR ARENDSE: Through correspondence, is it through correspondence Unisa?

MR SHICEKA: Unisa.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you.

MR WARNER: Mr Chairman, if I may interject, I'm sorry. I believe the Committee has not got a copy of the opposing affidavit. May I hand it in to the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR WARNER: Thank you.

MR ARENDSE: Where were you born?

MR SHICEKA: Here in Cape Town.

MR ARENDSE: Have you always lived here in Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Did you leave Cape Town at any stage, and if so, when was that?

MR SHICEKA: I left Cape Town at the time I left for exile in 1989, June.

MR ARENDSE: And you went into exile you say, where did you go?

MR SHICEKA: Tanzania and Uganda.

MR ARENDSE: Why did you go into exile?

MR SHICEKA: Because I saw that African people are oppressed, therefore I wanted to go and join a liberation movement to liberate them.

MR ARENDSE: Did you join one of the liberation armies when you went into exile and if so, which of the two liberation armies?

MR SHICEKA: APLA.

MR ARENDSE: Would it be correct to assume that when you went into exile, joined APLA, you also underwent military training when you were in exile?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: How old were you when you went into exile, that would have been in 1989?

MR SHICEKA: I was 20 years old.

MR ARENDSE: How old are you now?

MR SHICEKA: 29 years now.

MR ARENDSE: Did you return to South African at any stage?

MR SHICEKA: Yes, I returned.

MR ARENDSE: When was that?

MR SHICEKA: 1992.

MR ARENDSE: Did you return to Cape Town or did you return to somewhere else in the country?

MR SHICEKA: I went to Transkei.

MR ARENDSE: Is there any particular reason why you went to the Transkei?

MR SHICEKA: It was because most of the APLA High Command was based in Transkei.

MR ARENDSE: Now you had already gone into exile in 1989, you underwent military training there, would it be correct to say that you at that stage, in April 1992 when you went to the Transkei, you were already regarded as an APLA soldier or combatant?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Now, you are applying - or let's just for the record, you had also been involved in the Newcastle Crazy Beat Disco incident and you applied for amnesty and you were granted amnesty in respect of that incident, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: You are now applying for amnesty in respect of two incidents, the one at Khayelitsha Train Station and the one at the Claremont restaurant, is that right?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Now obviously both these attacks took place in Cape Town.

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: You had gone from exile into Transkei, at what stage did you then get to Cape Town? How did you get to Cape Town? Did you come so out of your own or did someone tell you to come here to Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: I was sent by a member of the High Command called Power.

MR ARENDSE: Just for the record, this is the same person that has been referred to by your other comrades, Power, Mzala, Jones, is this one and the same person?

MR SHICEKA: I cannot confirm nor can I deny because what happens most times, at the time when they were involved with Mzala, as they called Mzala, I was not there. So most of the times comrades use combat names. I would not know whether it was Power because at the time they were talking with him I was not there.

MR ARENDSE: But the person who sent you was code-named Power?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you since then learnt whether Power and Mzala are the same person? Do you now know whether that is so?

MR SHICEKA: I know so.

CHAIRPERSON: That Power and Mzala are the same person?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.

Now when did Power send you to Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: 1992, late 1992, I cannot remember the precise dates but it was late in 1992.

MR ARENDSE: Why were you sent to Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: To come and attack white people and policemen and state security officials or the state machinery generally.

MR ARENDSE: Was that a general instruction or did he specifically say to you you must attack Khayelitsha Station, Claremont restaurant, Heidelberg Tavern or whatever? In other words, did he send you here with specific targets in mind or was the instruction to you just a general one?

MR SHICEKA: General.

MR ARENDSE: Whose responsibility was it to identify the targets?

MR SHICEKA: It was mine and my unit.

MR ARENDSE: Your unit, is it correct to assume that you were a commander of a unit, an APLA unit?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Who were the other persons in your unit?

MR SHICEKA: Chicken Licken, DK, he's called Mokasong Kadaki ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What name did you say?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is off.

MR SHICEKA: Chicken Licken, DK, who were the first I came to Cape Town with.

MR ARENDSE: So when you came to Cape Town you came with Chicken Licken and DK? Did they have any other names?

MR SHICEKA: It was Chicken Licken and DK.

MR ARENDSE: When is the last time that you saw Chicken Licken and DK? Have you seen them recently

MR SHICEKA: No.

MR ARENDSE: Were they - well, they were then also in the unit.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he didn't answer the first part of the question. When last did you see them?

MR SHICEKA: In 1993 when I left Cape Town in January.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR ARENDSE: Now when you came to Cape Town, were you provided with any food, clothing, money, arms, ammunition and if so, who provided you with these means?

MR SHICEKA: I was not given clothes or money, what I was given was money to travel with and money to eat, for refreshments and food because the road is long between Cape Town and Transkei.

MR ARENDSE: This money, was it for your use or was it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear the translation of that.

MR ARENDSE: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the witness say?

INTERPRETER: He said he used the money for food and to pay for transport as the road is long between Cape Town and Transkei.

MR ARENDSE: They money, was it for you personally or also for members of your unit?

MR SHICEKA: It was money for the unit, all of it.

MR ARENDSE: How much money was it?

MR SHICEKA: R1 000.

MR ARENDSE: Who gave you the money?

MR SHICEKA: Power.

MR ARENDSE: Now you left the Transkei in a bus, is that right, in a Translux bus?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: And while you were on the bus or on the bus, you also had arms and ammunition with you, is that right?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Tell us about that, just describe the arms and ammunition you had on you.

MR SHICEKA: Two R4's, magazine cassettes, a hand-grenade and a rifle-grenade.

MR ARENDSE: When you came to Cape Town, where did you go?

MR SHICEKA: I went to Tembani at Khayelitsha, at 19 April Close Street(?), Khayelitsha, Tembani. That is where I was told I was going to meet Tanda.

MR ARENDSE: Did you meet him there?

MR SHICEKA: No, he found us there because when we got there we found ladies and a number of people. When we got there we asked as to whether he was there and we were told that no, he was not there but he was soon to arrive, and he did. In a couple of minutes time, it should be less than one hour, he did arrive.

MR ARENDSE: When Tanda arrived there had you seen him before then? Did you know who he was?

MR SHICEKA: No.

MR ARENDSE: So you met him for the first time?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Did he introduce himself to you as Tanda or did he introduce himself to you by some other name?

MR SHICEKA: He gave himself the name Tanda.

MR ARENDSE: And you and your other comrades introduced yourselves to him, by which names did you introduce yourselves to him?

MR SHICEKA: I was Thabo, DK and Chicken Licken.

MR ARENDSE: So Chicken Licken is the constant in the equation here, he kept his name. Then what happened after you met Tanda?

MR SHICEKA: I told him as to what our mission was because when I left there having talked with Power, he told me that I was going to meet Tanda, whom I then met and I told him what the plan was. We stayed at April Close Street for some days until we left.

MR ARENDSE: Then how long after you arrived and met Tanda did the Khayelitsha Train Station operation take place? How long after that? Was it days, weeks, months?

MR SHICEKA: I think it was days. Yes.

MR ARENDSE: Tell us who was responsible for planning the Khayelitsha Train Station operation? Firstly, who identified that as a target and then who planned the operation?

MR SHICEKA: It was DK. He came with information that there were policemen at the station, let us go there an carry out an operation. After that what happened, I told him at this time at the station there are a lot of people and if we can go there right now a lot of people could get hurt who were African, so can we not use another time later because it was at about sevenish, late, or eight. I told him we could not go there then, we had to wait a little so that we can make sure that no people get affected, that the ordinary public is not affected.

MR ARENDSE: So you went a little later in the evening? You can't remember what time?

MR SHICEKA: No, I cannot remember but it was late then.

CHAIRPERSON: A month are we talking about?

MR SHICEKA: In 1992, late in 1992. I cannot remember the date precisely. I think it was late in that year.

MR ARENDSE: You eventually went to the station to do the operation, is that right?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Give us the names of your other comrades involved. You were involved, who else was involved in the operation?

MR SHICEKA: Myself, DK, Shaun and Chicken Licken, Shauna and Chicken Licken.

MR ARENDSE: Where does - we know now you said that DK and Chicken Licken had arrived with you from the Transkei, Shauna, who is Shauna? Where does Shauna come into the picture?

MR SHICEKA: Shauna is another member. You see when I was staying at Tembani, I stayed for some few days there. As I saw that our security at that house was not safe, how, that house belonged to a PAC member. A lot of PAC members used to visit that house and sometimes we would hold meetings.

I then decided that we must leave this house because at the end of the day we would be caught. That is where I had to meet Shauna, a person that I know as a person who stays here in Cape Town. We used to be at school together. That is the person I approached. When I approached him we then left that house. Other people - I had to stay at Shauna and others had to find their own places, places I had already secured.

Shauna I know because we had grown up together. He was an old PAC member, even before I left and most of the times we use his place.

MR ARENDSE: So there were then four of you in a group?

MR SHICEKA: Yes, we were four.

MR ARENDSE: You eventually went to the station, you were armed?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: By you you're meaning him collectively or him?

MR ARENDSE: Collectively, sorry Mr Chairperson.

All of you in a group, is that right?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: What were you armed with?

MR SHICEKA: R4, one R5, one AK47.

MR ARENDSE: You went to the station, what were you going to do there at the station?

MR SHICEKA: To attack and disarm those policemen.

MR ARENDSE: Do you know whether there were any policemen at the station or on the station?

MR SHICEKA: The information brought by DK was that there were policemen there.

MR ARENDSE: Just tell us what happened, how did you go about the operation?

MR SHICEKA: We went there. When we got there at the ...[indistinct] Station, it has a bush area. We stayed behind those bushes and we sent DK to go again and to check whether those policemen are still there. DK did go there, he went to look. When he returned he ...[indistinct] all the things are okay.

When we went there we saw someone running. Apparently he saw us when we went up holding weapons. Apparently when he ran towards the other policemen he was going to report that there are people who are coming to attack them.

When we reached the area it was some time after he had gone in and we saw that that policeman was inside a room. The door of the room was closed. We shot through the door. What happened was, the door was locked and we could not go into that room. We withdrew after having shot through that door.

MR ARENDSE: Did you shoot through the door?

MR SHICEKA: Yes, it was I and DK, others were holding firing cover.

MR ARENDSE: Now we know that there was someone behind the door, in the room. You know there was a person there and that person died as a result of the shooting?

MR SHICEKA: We knew that there were people inside that room but that a person was killed at that time we only got to hear about that the following day.

MR ARENDSE: Do you know whether any policemen went into that room or ran into that room?

MR SHICEKA: No, I cannot confirm that I know that they went into that room but what DK came to tell us after having checked was that those policemen were inside that room. When we went to go and attack there, when we got there the door was closed. Apparently that person who had ran had also gone into that room. That is when we started shooting through that door.

MR ARENDSE: Were you - would it be correct to say that you were under the impression, based on what DK had told you, that there were policemen in that room?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Is that the reason why you shot through the door?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: After the attack, after you finished shooting, what happened?

MR SHICEKA: We withdrew. After withdrawing we went to Shauna's house.

MR ARENDSE: This attack, would you describe it as having been successful or unsuccessful?

MR SHICEKA: Unsuccessful.

MR ARENDSE: Why do you say that?

MR SHICEKA: Because when we heard over the news, we only heard that it was not the right person who had died. By implication it was not the correct person who had died.

MR ARENDSE: How do you feel about the fact that someone died that you intend to kill or disarm or injure?

MR SHICEKA: It is a very, very hurtful thing.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew, you knew when you fired into the room that there were people and the wrong people might get shot?

MR SHICEKA: Yes, I shot. After having received information that there were policemen in that room, and the person had told us so was my own comrade whom I trusted. That he told us that there were policemen was my reason why I went to go and attack there.

MR ARENDSE: Do you know the identify of the security guard who was killed in the attack?

MR SHICEKA: No.

MR ARENDSE: How do you feel about the fact that as security guard was killed instead of a policeman?

MR SHICEKA: It is - I'm hurt. That is why I applied for amnesty, to enable those who were there to know what actually happened. I then decided to come and explain what all happened there.

MR ARENDSE: Were you arrested at all in connection with this operation?

MR SHICEKA: No, I was not arrested. What happened, when I was arrested at Newcastle, I was charged simultaneously for this case in Cape Town but after some time the case was withdrawn.

MR ARENDSE: Did you stay in Cape Town after this operation or did you go back to Transkei?

MR SHICEKA: I went back to Transkei.

MR ARENDSE: On a bus?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Did you return to Cape Town at all after that?

MR SHICEKA: When I went to Transkei, after having heard what had happened, I was forced to come back to come and explain what actually happened and how all of these things happened.

MR ARENDSE: When you came back ...[intervention]

MR SHICEKA: I went to Transkei firstly to go and explain what happened here at Khayelitsha Station, to Power as the member of the High Command, that is mistake has happened. After that I moved from Transkei to Cape Town.

MR ARENDSE: Were you told to come back to Cape Town or did you just return to Cape Town on your own?

MR SHICEKA: I was told to come back to Cape Town.

MR ARENDSE: Who told you to come back to Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: Power.

MR ARENDSE: Why did you have to come back to Cape Town? Did you come to Cape Town with any orders or instructions?

MR SHICEKA: They were orders.

MR ARENDSE: What were they?

MR SHICEKA: To come and attack white people.

MR ARENDSE: Where? Did they mention any names of any white people or was it again a general instruction?

MR SHICEKA: Where white people are congregated we must attack.

MR ARENDSE: When you were given this instruction, did you ask any questions? Did you say: "But you know, should we just attack any white people, are all the same, are they all bad"? Just to use an example, Joe Slovo may have been one of these white people congregating with other white people. Did you question the instruction at all?

MR SHICEKA: No, I did not ask.

MR ARENDSE: Why not?

MR SHICEKA: At APLA you do not question an order, you carry it out as is. You carry the operation out and then you ask questions later.

MR ARENDSE: Because it seems to me that, and you must correct me if I'm wrong here, this order or instruction now differs from the previous one where you are attacking the police, army and the purpose being to disarm them and to get arms and ammunition, is that right? Is this now a different instruction?

MR SHICEKA: They are the same.

MR ARENDSE: They are the same?

MR SHICEKA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: Can you explain?

MR SHICEKA: I'll explain this way. Police and SADF are part of the state machinery. The government protects its own interests by using the police and automatically they are our targets as APLA.

White people because of their position materially, being oppressed by them. Nobody knows in this meeting that white people oppressed us, everyone knows so. You could then not be able to determine who is bad or who is not bad. All of them stay in the same place. I do not see any difference.

APLA has been hitting at white people. It is not a new thing that white people have been hit, it's been a longstanding thing for APLA to attack white people. I do not see any difference.

MR ARENDSE: Now when you returned to Cape Town on the 25th - sorry, you returned to Cape Town on the 25th of December, that's on Xmas day, is that right, 1992?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Were you alone or did you have company?

MR SHICEKA: I was with Scorpion.

MR ARENDSE: Does Scorpion have another name?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: What is his other name?

MR SHICEKA: It is Gadluma or Vuyisile.

MR ARENDSE: When was the last time you saw him?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR ARENDSE: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that name, the first one. Could you spell that for me?

MR SHICEKA: Gadluma.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell that?

MR SHICEKA: G-A-D-L-U-M-A.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his full names?

MR SHICEKA: I do not know his full names because his name that he used in Transkei was Vuyisile. Here in Cape Town he did not use that Vuyisile name, he used Gadluma.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you.

The two of you came together from Transkei in a bus I take it?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Where did you go to when you arrived in Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: We went to Shauna's place.

MR ARENDSE: And at Shauna's place, was anyone else there at Shauna's place?

MR SHICEKA: Yes, there was.

MR ARENDSE: Who was that?

MR SHICEKA: DK.

MR ARENDSE: Did DK talk to you, did he speak to you, did he say anything to you?

MR SHICEKA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: What was that?

MR SHICEKA: When I arrived he said: "Commander there is a place I saw that I have been visiting from time to time to check out".

MR ARENDSE: And which place was that?

MR SHICEKA: Steakhouse at Claremont.

MR ARENDSE: And after he told you that - so this is a target which DK had identified, is that right?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Had you been there before?

MR SHICEKA: No, I had never gone there before.

MR ARENDSE: Before then, did you know where Claremont was?

MR SHICEKA: I know Claremont.

MR ARENDSE: Did you go to the restaurant just after he told you that he had identified the restaurant as a target or was it only later that you went? Did you go that same day or did you go the following day or the following week?

MR SHICEKA: The same day I went there.

MR ARENDSE: The same day?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: How did you get there?

MR SHICEKA: We used public transport to check it out. I too saw that it was a proper place. We went inside and bought tobacco and I saw white people frequent the place. We went back with the intent that at night we would return.

MR ARENDSE: Did you return?

MR SHICEKA: We did.

MR ARENDSE: How did you return, how did you come back to the restaurant later that night?

MR SHICEKA: We stole a car, a Datsun. We stole a yellow 1400 Datsun and went with it.

MR ARENDSE: Who drove?

MR SHICEKA: DK.

MR ARENDSE: And where were - so DK's driving, are you in the vehicle, anyone else in the vehicle?

MR SHICEKA: Scorpion, Chicken Licken.

MR ARENDSE: Where are you sitting?

MR SHICEKA: Behind the driver.

MR ARENDSE: Where is Chicken Licken sitting?

MR SHICEKA: Front seat next to the driver.

MR ARENDSE: And Scorpion?

MR SHICEKA: At the back of Chicken Licken.

MR ARENDSE: Did DK drive to the restaurant directly?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: He stopped the vehicle at some point, where did he stop the vehicle?

MR SHICEKA: At a corner.

MR ARENDSE: Then tell us what happened after that.

MR SHICEKA: I told him to go inside to see if everything is still okay. He did and he returned telling us ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You told who to go inside?

MR SHICEKA: DK.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SHICEKA: After that he returned and said everything is okay. When he did so I said: "Let's go ...[indistinct]. We went inside, myself and Scorpion stood at the door. We did not go inside, we stood at the doors, we shot inside. After having done so we went back to our car, we drove back to Shauna's place.

MR ARENDSE: Did you - you stood at the door and you just shot, you just shot indiscriminately, you didn't look at who or what you were shooting at?

MR SHICEKA: DK had already checked that everything is okay. When we went there we did not go to check again, we went there to shoot. As to who was inside, we knew that it was white people and we had gone there to shoot them.

MR ARENDSE: What was the objective?

MR SHICEKA: To fulfil the aims and objectives of the PAC.

MR ARENDSE: Which was?

MR SHICEKA: To liberate the African masses from the white oppressors.

MR ARENDSE: How were you going to do that by standing at the entrance of a restaurant in Claremont and shooting at people inside the restaurant?

MR SHICEKA: We saw those people inside the restaurant. The restaurant has windows, you can see who is inside.

MR ARENDSE: My question is, how were you going to achieve the objectives of the PAC and APLA by shooting at people sitting inside the restaurant?

MR SHICEKA: We would achieve these aims and objectives in this fashion: A white person is an oppressor, nobody does not know this then. If we hit white people hard, clearly white people are going to go to their leaders, de Klerk or whoever was leading them in parliament and say: "Gents you can see it is difficult, these people are attacking us, please give the land back to its own people". We must put pressure on the white public to show that we are very serious about what we want.

MR ARENDSE: So would it be correct to say then that it is not as if that evening or during that operation you were going to immediately achieve your objective, but it was a form of applying pressure on the government of the day, the apartheid government of the day? You're nodding, the machine can't pick up your - what is your answer to that?

MR SHICEKA: Can you please repeat?

MR ARENDSE: Would it be correct to say that operation that day or that night, you weren't going to achieve your objectives immediately. The operation was a form of applying pressure on the apartheid government of the day, for them to realise that you are serious about liberating the black masses?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: If I may just deal with this also. There were also a number of attacks around that period, St James, Heidelberg, the Newcastle Disco, was that part of a pattern? Was that part of the same pattern of attacks that were now being launched by APLA?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: You were involved in the Newcastle Disco shootings.

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: You applied for amnesty and you were granted amnesty in respect of that incident.

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: The objective, was the objective in that attack the same as with this one, the Claremont restaurant attack?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: After the - the attack, did it last a matter of minutes, seconds, how long did it last?

MR SHICEKA: Seconds.

MR ARENDSE: Can you remember how many rounds you fired?

MR SHICEKA: No.

MR ARENDSE: After the attack was finished you obviously ran back to the bakkie and you drove off, what happened to the bakkie?

MR SHICEKA: We abandoned it at Downto(?).

MR ARENDSE: Do you know what happened as a result of the attack, have you learnt subsequently what happened?

MR SHICEKA: Yes, we got to hear.

MR ARENDSE: Did you make a report on the attack?

MR SHICEKA: Yes, I did make a report and the operation was claimed by APLA.

MR ARENDSE: Who did you report to?

MR SHICEKA: Power.

MR ARENDSE: After the attack, did you stay on in Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: For some time, yes. I stayed for some time, yes. I stayed for a short period.

MR ARENDSE: You left Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: I only left Cape Town the following year because this happened on the 26th of December and then I left in January 1993.

MR ARENDSE: So it wasn't long after the attack that you left Cape Town?

MR SHICEKA: I'm sure I stayed three to four weeks. I'm sure I left at the end of January.

MR ARENDSE: Were you arrested at all in connection with this attack?

MR SHICEKA: No, I was not arrested for this case. What happened I was arrested for the one at Newcastle and the police as a further charge, charged me for the one at Claremont. They charged me for the one at Claremont but through the lack of evidence the case was withdrawn.

MR ARENDSE: You were arrested subsequently in connection with the Newcastle matter, is that right?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: And there you were convicted and sentenced to 25 years?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: But this case was withdrawn, the Claremont case?

MR SHICEKA: Correct.

MR ARENDSE: Just in retrospect. Now it's 1998 in September and this attack happened in December of 1992, how do you now feel about what happened, about the attack? And that it could have been worse, a number of people could have been killed as a result of the attack.

MR SHICEKA: We do not complain today about that. What happens, for the part of reconciliation, let us forgive each other and not accuse each other about this or that. All wars are not exciting because people die, especially those who are not guilty. Those who are involved as perpetrators do not die. This is very sad. I feel very sad. What could we do? We could not allow our people getting killed whilst we were there and allow ...[intervention]

MR ARENDSE: What happened about the attack? It could have been worse, a number of people could have been killed because of the attack, fortunately no-one was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a question or is that a fact?

MR ARENDSE: I speak under correction but it is a fact that no-one was killed as a result of the attack. Some people were injured.

MR SHICEKA: ...[inaudible]

MR ARENDSE: The people who were in the restaurant at the time - Mr Chairman, just for the record, I'm referring not to page number 2 of the bundle, but the second page after the index of your bundle. There is a short summary of the attack and there is also a list of names.

It will be said that these people whose names appear here as victims, Mr Malcolm Visser, owner of the restaurant, Lizette Theunissen, Dennis Smith, Jason Collie, Alan Williams, Amanda Warner, that these persons were innocent and unarmed. You were armed with an AK47 or with an R4 rifle, whatever it was, standing in front of a restaurant or shooting at them. Do you want to comment, that the attack was launched on innocent unarmed people, white people?

MR SHICEKA: What I can say is that a white person, all of them, all of them who underwent compulsory military training. When people say they are innocent civilians I may not understand, because when you undergo military training that person is a complete soldier.

What I want to say in relation to what is written there, all of those people must come together with us and let us talk reconciliation so that what happened in the years past can never happen again, and all of us build our country together.

MR ARENDSE: Now Chairperson, I take it that by now you have a copy of this affidavit in front of you, it's by Amanda Warner. She is represented here today. It looks like the date is 7, at the back here: 7.09.1998, I'm not sure. 7 September '98 ja, is the date of this affidavit.

Andile, you've also had a look at this affidavit, is that correct, the one by Amanda Warner?

MR SHICEKA: I've seen it already.

MR ARENDSE: Now I just want to raise a few things with you in the affidavit. It appears from this affidavit, and we've got no reason to question the factual correctness of it Chairperson, there are a number of submissions, conclusions and so on. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR ARENDSE: Yes, but it would appear, and we accept, that she was a waitress on the evening of the 26th of December 1992, at this restaurant. She says that she was sitting in the restaurant round about 10H30 when she heard a series of explosions. Now she had to help a number of people who had apparently got injured as a result of the attack, including Mr Visser who is the owner of the restaurant.

Now what I want to ask you about is, she says she suffers or she suffered severe emotional trauma as a result of this attack and she also says that she harbours a fear that her attackers, which would include you, would hunt her down and kill her. Do you want to comment on that? She's afraid that you will hunt her down and kill her.

MR SHICEKA: I cannot do such a thing, I do not hate her. I cannot do such a thing. You see, what made us fight is no more, we are now one people.

MR ARENDSE: Are her fears well-founded or grounded, or doesn't she have any basis to fear anything from you?

MR SHICEKA: There is no reason for her to fear anything. Even if I can meet her I can sit down with her so that I can explain everything and to explain to her why everything happened the way it did.

MR ARENDSE: I take it you don't know her, you haven't seen her, you don't know what she looks like?

MR SHICEKA: I never saw her, I do not know her.

MR ARENDSE: She said that is why she is now living in the United Kingdom, just as a matter of interest. Now she opposes your application for amnesty on a number of grounds, and I just want to run through them with you. She says that what you did, the act which you perpetrated that night, was not a good faith act associated with a political objective. Do you want to comment on that?

MR SHICEKA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: Sorry, just before you - to put it another way around, this was a purely criminal act. You decided with your cronies to go there, open up fire and to shoot them. This has got nothing to do with politics, it has nothing to do with the conflicts of the past. That is what she is saying.

MR SHICEKA: Let me tell it this way. In the way she explains, you see that operation was claimed by APLA under the code name Kabambata.

When she says it was a simple criminal act from the PAC principles, the PAC do not hate white people. They believe that there is only one race, the human race. We did not hit white people because we hate them. There is only one thing we wanted from them, to allow us freedom to respect human beings, us as human beings. We did not hit them because we hated them. We do not hate white people because they are white, even from PAC principles. What happened is that they did not recognise us as human beings.

MR ARENDSE: Now you have already told us that you were a member of the PAC and of APLA, but she says that you did not commit this particular offence in furtherance of your struggle against the state. This was an attack on innocent unarmed civilians and had nothing to do with your struggle against the state at the time.

MR SHICEKA: This we did as members of APLA. APLA has accepted responsibility for the operation. In your thoughts, how can I go and kill people without anticipating any gains? I cannot move from Transkei and go and shoot people I do not know just for the fun of it. All of this was planned by APLA and us as operatives of APLA executed that job.

MR ARENDSE: Just to take your last point, you say you executed this job. Did you have reason to believe that the job that you were carrying out was within the scope of your duties as an APLA soldier, as an APLA combatant? Because she also claims that you did not have reasonable grounds to believe that you were doing this within the scope of your job as a combatant.

MR SHICEKA: I am an APLA soldier, I did this, I'm not denying anything. I was only executing the orders that were given to me as a disciplined member of APLA. You carry an order as it is and then you ask questions later.

MR ARENDSE: Then she also goes on to say that you also - the offence in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, this is the Claremont restaurant, cannot be associated with a political objective because firstly she says you were motivated by malice and a hatred of white people in general.

MR SHICEKA: We never hated white people, we regarded them as human beings like us but we had a problem in terms of their attitude, they were oppressing the Africans. We were joining the political organisations so as to liberate the Africans.

We were to fight with the government to show the government that we don't like the manner in which we were being regarded. That doesn't imply that we hated white people. You can also find that in our preamble of the PAC, that all of us belonged to one race and that is the human race. We never hated white people, we hated oppression. No-one like oppression in the whole world.

MR ARENDSE: She also alleges that the Claremont restaurant attack was not committed within the context of a political uprising or disturbance, or in reaction to a political uprising or disturbance.

MR SHICEKA: APLA only suspended its armed struggle on the 16th of January 1994. The operation took place in 1992. That proves that we were in the battle with the whites up until the time when the armed struggle was suspended.

MR ARENDSE: She also claims that the offence wasn't even directed primarily at white people because half of the people who worked at the restaurant were 50% black. She doesn't say, interesting enough, how many white people were in the restaurant. I take it that most people who work at any place are mostly black. Do you want to comment on that? Did you take into account that there were not only white people there but there were also black people there, whether they were working there or whether they were eating there?

MR SHICEKA: There were only white people there.

MR ARENDSE: Now she also says that you failed to disclose why the Claremont restaurant was selected as a target or why it was selected as a legitimate target.

MR SHICEKA: That restaurant at Claremont was frequented by white people. We targeted it because we knew that it was frequented by white people. Even the other places that were frequented by white people were being hit. We couldn't hit all of them all at once. On that particular day we identified it as our target and that is why we had to hit that restaurant.

MR ARENDSE: She also says that neither the PAC nor APLA were aware of this target or that you had selected this restaurant as a target.

MR SHICEKA: I have a question now. How did APLA claim the responsibility of that operation, if it wasn't approved by APLA? How can APLA claim responsibility? That operation was claimed under the code name Kambambata. If she says that that was not approved by APLA, I don't know what that means because I know that APLA claimed responsibility.

MR ARENDSE: She also alleges that you gained personally from this, from the commission of this offence because you were paid R1 000, R150 of which you spent on alcohol in a shebeen and also to buy clothes.

MR SHICEKA: We got R1 000 from Transkei. When we were leaving Transkei we were given that money to use it for transport because if you have to take a bus you have to pay and buy food. We were not given R1 000 because we were hired, we were not mercenaries. APLA was not a mercenary organisation. We were given that money so that we don't encounter problems on the way. We needed transport, we needed money to pay the bus and buy food until we reach our destination safely.

MR ARENDSE: Now I don't think it's quite legitimate, but let me ask you anyway. She seems to equate what you did then in December 1992, she seems to equate that with what has been happening recently, for example at Planet Hollywood and some other such, what is regarded as terrorist attacks. Are they the same?

MR SHICEKA: No.

MR ARENDSE: Why do you say they're not the same?

MR SHICEKA: In that there is a difference between a terrorist and a guerilla fighter. I'm not a terrorist, I'm an indigenous South African and I'm a guerilla fighter. For me to liberate the African people from the oppressors I have to come to the people who were born in South Africa.

What happened in Plant Hollywood, as you call it, it is a terrorism action. It is about people who live somewhere else and they go to another place and terrorise people there. I'm not a terrorist, I'm a guerilla fighter. As I've told you, there is a difference between the two. The people who committed that act in the Plant Hollywood, they've got their own problems with America and of which we are, I'm not part of that, I'm just a guerilla fighter. I have all the rights to fight for liberation, to fight for liberation of the African people.

MR ARENDSE: The conditions in 1992, December 1992, did they differ from the conditions now in September 1998? I'm referring particularly to the political conditions.

MR SHICEKA: There is a big difference.

MR ARENDSE: Just explain briefly what that difference is, or what you understand the difference to be.

MR SHICEKA: I'm a member of the airforce, I have white friends and they accept me as much as I accept them. In most places you will find white people visiting us and even in Guguletu you will find white people there visiting friends, there are not problems but previously that never used to be the case. Whether we like it or not we have problems but today it looks like everyone is happy. The situation is different from the previous one.

MR ARENDSE: Just lastly, you - I may have dealt with it but let me just, just in case I didn't, she says that you were, you just did this out of spite. You were just spiteful to take this gun, stand in front of a restaurant and just shoot at them. It's just because it was a white person that you did this out of spite.

MR SHICEKA: I'm a full member of PAC. I am a member of PAC and as a member of PAC, PAC doesn't hate white people. I also don't hate white people. A white person is a human being just like myself. The problem that we had was this, one was the oppressor and the other one was the oppressed. I was part of those who were oppressed.

For me to free myself from this oppression, I had no alternative, I had to free myself. If I hated white men, why can't I kill them right now? I'm staying with them, we have friends, we do things together, how do I hate a white person? He is also a human being. I don't hate a white man.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions you wish to put to this witness, or the applicant rather?

MR WARNER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do have some questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARNER: Andile, when you got to Cape Town, you said you told the other members what your mission was and you told them what your plan was, what was that? What was your plan that you'd come down from Transkei with? What were the details of your plan?

MR SHICEKA: Will you please repeat your question Sir?

MR WARNER: You were asked when you arrived in Cape Town, who was there? You said there was Thabo, DK and Chicken Licken. Then you were asked: "What happened after that"?, and you said that you told those people what their mission was and you also told them what your plan was. Now I'm asking you what was your plan.

MR SHICEKA: I had one plan, to execute orders that were given to me. Together with all those people who were in my company we had one purpose, no-one had a different purpose because whatever I was going to do I was going to do it with those people.

MR WARNER: I'm sorry I still don't understand what it was that you told them that you were, you briefed them on what you were going to do, you briefed them on what your instructions were from the High Command, what were those instructions, what did you tell them you were going to do?

MR SHICEKA: To attack the police, attack government and attack white people.

MR WARNER: And do I understand that they also didn't question the general statement of: "Attack white people"? They didn't question that, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: So no discussion ensued on what it meant to attack white people and who was included in the term: "white people", is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: A little while after that you were asked: "Who planned the train attack"? and you said that is was DK. You went on to say that DK had said that you must, that it was a good idea for you to attack the train station, and the reason he gave for that was that there were policemen there, in other words, there was a target for you there, the policemen were there, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: You then said to him that you didn't want to do it at the time of the day which he had suggested and your reason for that was that you did not want to hurt innocent civilian African people, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: Did your statements there come from your own personal moral convictions or is it a policy of APLA not to kill innocent people?

MR SHICEKA: Africans.

MR WARNER: So you are saying that it is the policy of APLA to kill white people?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: Even though you do not hate them?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: If I can just draw your attention to the station attack. You went on to say that you went to attack the station and your purpose in attacking the station was to attack and disarm the policemen, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: You see what I am seeing here, from what we have heard today, is a common thread in that it would appear that the APLA attacks which we have heard about today have all, with the exception of this one, had as their aim the acquiring of weapons for APLA, would you agree with that?

MR SHICEKA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR WARNER: Okay. Toady we've heard applications in terms of a number of offences, applications for amnesty. I'm putting it to you that the common thread in all of those application, with the exception of this one, is that the purpose behind them was to attack police and military installations in order to acquire weapons to arm APLA soldiers, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is not true.

MR WARNER: Could you point me to one of the other attacks that we have heard of today, amnesty applications in terms of those attacks, where the purpose was something other than to acquire arms?

MR SHICEKA: I don't want to talk about something that was said or mentioned by other people, let us stick to my case.

MR WARNER: Okay. Would you agree with me that you carried out two operations in Cape Town in December of 1992? The first one, what was the purpose of that one, the direct purpose, the attack on the police at the Khayelitsha station? What was the main purpose of that attack?

MR SHICEKA: Well it was to attack and disarm.

MR WARNER: Okay, so in other words, because you were unable to disarm and acquire weapons you viewed that operation as being unsuccessful, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: But there was also a further reason why you viewed the operation as being unsuccessful, isn't there? You viewed it as being unsuccessful because you killed an innocent person instead of a policeman, is that correct as well?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: Now why did you not want to kill this other person, is it because - did you know if this was a black or a white person, first of all?

MR SHICEKA: Will you please repeat that question?

MR WARNER: Okay. In the police station attack, sorry, the train station attack, you fired through a locked door. Now you knew there were people inside there, you thought they were policemen, did you know as a fact that they were all white people or black people or policemen? You didn't know that, so what I'm putting to you is that there may well have been a white person in there. If that white person had got killed, would you then have changed your opinion as to whether the attack was successful or not?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: Thank you. You also went on to state that your main reason for attacking the room as such, was that you believed, you genuinely believed and had no reason to disbelieve that there were policemen inside the room. Do I understand that correct?

MR SHICEKA: Yes, I understand that.

MR WARNER: So your target there was the policemen, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: You made two affidavits which I'm in possession of, the one the official affidavit, the other one is a sworn statement. Do you remember making those statements?

MR SHICEKA: Excuse me?

MR WARNER: Do you remember making any statements in connection with your amnesty application?

CHAIRPERSON: If it's part of the bundle, just refer him to the page please.

MR WARNER: Mr Chairman, I don't know if I have the same bundle as the Committee but I have a page 8, a statement made by Andile, and the surname appears to be spelt incorrectly, and in brackets (Thabo).

CHAIRPERSON: Just place that before him. Yes?

MR WARNER: Do you admit that is a statement which you've made?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: You refer there to a yellow Datsun 1200, is that a car or a bakkie?

MR SHICEKA: It is a car.

MR WARNER: Thank you.

MR WARNER: I'd now like to turn to your statement which you made, your affidavit. In paragraph 6.1 thereof you said that Power, also known as Mzala, gave you orders to come to Cape Town and carry on operations in which you were to attack members of the then racist South African Police, South African Defence Force and other white people. You said that you were told that the purpose was to take the war to white areas and to steal by force weapons from the police and from members of the Defence Force, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: In your evidence which you gave earlier on today you mentioned something which differs from that affidavit in that you said you were ordered to attack places where white people congregated. Could you explain why you didn't word it in that way in your affidavit?

MR ARENDSE: Just a correction Chairperson, it's not an affidavit it's just a signed statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this contradiction, this difference is there nevertheless. What is the point?

MR WARNER: I'd like to put it to you that what your commander actually told you was that you were to come and attack white members of the South African Police and white members of the South African Defence Force. What is your comment on that?

MR SHICEKA: If you take a look at this statement, at 6.1 number 6, it is written there that in 1992 a member known as Power or generally known as Mzala gave me an order to carry operations in Cape Town where I was to attack racist South African Police and South African Defence Force and other white people. He didn't mention that I have to hit only South African Defence Force and South African Police alone. It is added there: "and white people".

MR WARNER: Okay. So would you have this Commission believe then that what is written in 6.1 is the truth?

MR SHICEKA: I am not trying to say that, because now when you are talking to me you are talking about two things only, the SADF and SAP, you omit the third one and that is why I read all of that portion there.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think the question is you accept paragraph 6.1 is correct?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: So then it must follow by necessary implication, that what you've said today is not true, is that not correct?

CHAIRPERSON: In what way?

MR SHICEKA: Mr Chair, in that the reference to attacking places where white people gather was not part of their order.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] instructions are to attack white people, does it matter where?

MR WARNER: Mr Chair, what I would like to put to the applicant is that this part about attacking white people generally is something which he conceived on his own and that that was never part of his orders, it was something he took upon himself. And if one looks at the generality of that statement, it seems unlikely that he would be given such a wide and generalised order or that that would fulfil the meaning of the word: "order".

CHAIRPERSON: You'll recall his evidence where he said the attack on all whites because all whites underwent compulsory military training. So the direction was that all whites because they all underwent military training. Do you recall that sentence in his evidence?

MR WARNER: Mr Chair, I do recall that sentence, and if that may lead me on to my next question.

Are you not aware that female white persons were not obliged to do compulsory military training, firstly. Secondly, that full-time students did not do compulsory military training and thirdly, that the persons working at that particular restaurant were all either female or full-time students, what is your comment on that?

MR SHICEKA: I don't know that. All I know is that each and every white person undergoes training.

MR WARNER: Sir, as an APLA ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Which is strictly speaking not correct, is it? There was a woman who is a waitress working in that place, at the restaurant. You said: "all whites underwent military training". That is a general statement and I'm sure you must concede that that is not what you intend to convey or is it?

MR SHICEKA: What I was told is this. All the South African white people were trained militarily.

MR WARNER: So you Sir, as an APLA soldier, not only a soldier but also a commander of your unit knew your enemy so badly that you were under the mistaken belief that your enemy was 50% female, how can that be?

MR SHICEKA: If we hit white people we don't check whether they are women or men.

MR WARNER: Are you telling this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't check whether they have had military training or not?

MR SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: Sir, isn't that one of the characteristics of racism, is that a particular group of people are seen as being all the same just because they are white? In other words, just because they are white they all had military training, they were all oppressors, is that not racist?

MR SHICEKA: We must also remember this, a white man is an oppressor, we were oppressed by white people and that is why we were hitting white people.

MR WARNER: What about the white people who were in violent opposition to the apartheid regime, would you hit them as well? Would you hit comrade Slovo for example, as a white person?

MR SHICEKA: If he happened to be among the people that I was attacking, I wouldn't differentiate, I would hit him, it's obvious.

MR WARNER: Okay, thank you. On the night when you went to see this particular restaurant, to attack the restaurant, you said just now that you first went there earlier in the day and checked the place out and decided that it was a good target. It would appear that DK was a subordinate to you and you first had to approve the target, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: I'm a commander and DK is a commissar. In APLA we didn't operate as individuals, we operated collectively. I can also select a target and bring it to them and we discuss about this target but the last person to take the final decision is myself, the commander. That is why when DK came to me and he told me to go to the restaurant I went to that restaurant also and I confirmed and I approved that this is a real target, and late in the evening we went there to hit the restaurant.

MR WARNER: It is my information and I put it to you that there were, as alleged in the affidavit, at least 50% of the staff members were actually black and not white. It so happens that at the time of the attack the black staff had for some or other reason left earlier than they usually do. Was this part of the plan, was this actually organised, that the black staff would not be there?

MR SHICEKA: I don't know. I can't respond to that because I do not know that, because we don't plan with people who work in the restaurants.

MR WARNER: Okay. So then what you're saying is that is was unlikely that they would have been warned of attack and left early for that reason?

MR SHICEKA: Who could have given them a warning?

MR WARNER: Okay, I accept that there was no warning. Now what I put to you is that you went there earlier in the day during the daytime and you said that you went inside and bought tobacco, by the way, what tobacco was it that you bought?

MR SHICEKA: I can't remember, the reason being this, I don't smoke. I went inside, I bought something. Even if I wasn't going to use that but I bought it because I wanted to check thoroughly. Even if I had thrown that cigarette away but I went there to check inside. For me to check inside I had to do something, I had to pretend as if I was buying something.

MR WARNER: So you went inside the restaurant, being the same one which you later that evening attacked, is that correct?

MR SHICEKA: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: What was his answer?

MR WARNER: Then I want to ask you, when you went inside you looked around, what did you see, who was in the restaurant at the time you looked around to see what sort of people frequented that restaurant?

MR SHICEKA: I saw white people.

MR WARNER: Are you telling the Commission that you did not see any black people in the restaurant?

MR SHICEKA: I saw white people. If he or she was there I didn't see him or her but I saw white people.

MR WARNER: Did it occur to you that there may have been black people either working or eating in the restaurant?

MR SHICEKA: No, I didn't think about that.

MR WARNER: Alright, let me take you to the evening of the attack, did you first drive past the restaurant or how did you get to the place where you parked your car?

MR SHICEKA: Have you been to that restaurant, because I want to explain to you so that you can get a proper picture. It's next to the robots. As DK was driving we stopped next to it and I alighted from the vehicle and I went inside, I bought tobacco. There's a first street, I'm not sure whether it is a pre-school but there is something there next to the restaurant.

When I went inside the car took a turn so that when I went back, I came out of the restaurant, I would find the car on the road.

MR WARNER: Can I show you a map of the two roads and you can perhaps draw with a pen on there where the car parked and where the restaurant is. If I can show that to you. Could you just make the marks on both please. Could you put an "A" for where the car was parked and a "B" for where the restaurant is please.

MR SHICEKA: ...[no English translation] I can see the Landsdowne Road. Will you please come closer to me because I want to be sure, I want to tick at the right place. Will you please come closer to me because I can't see where the robot is here.

MR WARNER: Are you able to make those marks on the map?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this crucial to the application or is it just a matter of side interest?

MR WARNER: I believe that it may be. I wish to point out the, whether the vehicle passed the restaurant first or whether it went through the back street, because from where the vehicle was, I believe, parked ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. The event occurred, they were there, they got back. Now is this crucial to know how they went there and how they got back?

MR WARNER: What I'm trying to show is that this reconnaissance trip to the restaurant didn't happen as it is being said it happened.

MR WARNER: Okay, but they went there nevertheless?

MR WARNER: I don't think they went to that restaurant.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's another matter.

MR WARNER: The restaurant doesn't sell cigarettes, the shop next door sells cigarettes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now put it along those lines, if you are saying that they never went to this restaurant at all. Please carry on.

MR WARNER: I put it to you then that your colleague, your comrade, did not go to the Stake's Restaurant to check the restaurant out because apparently, according to the police report, somebody came and bought cigarettes at the shop next door. Now can you tell us, this restaurant, was it right on the corner or was the shop(?) next to the shop on the corner?

MR SHICEKA: There is a shop at the corner with a machine. The restaurant was next to the shop. There is a shop at - the fist building is a shop and there is a restaurant, and there's only a passage where one can park a car. There is nothing after the restaurant.

MR WARNER: Okay, thank you. No further questions on that point. Your counsel said that it was not possible for, or you said that it was not possible for APLA not to have known about this operation beforehand because they approved it afterwards.

Now I put it to you that that doesn't follow. APLA approved the operation after you reported it to Power. I put it to you that APLA was not aware prior to this operation, that you were going to attack the restaurant or this particular restaurant.

MR SHICEKA: Do you expect an answer?

MR WARNER: Can you comment on that please? I'm putting it to you that APLA did not know before the attack took place, that you were going to attack a restaurant filled with civilians, is that true?

MR SHICEKA: You say APLA didn't knowledge prior. Let me explain this to you. If you are given an order and you are told what type of targets are to be attacked, and then what will happen thereafter, I won't say before an attack today, I won't tell people that I'm going to attack people before that could take place. What if that information will land to the wrong hands, will land to the enemies before the attack.

APLA has given me a target. What I'm supposed to do is to execute the orders and report after the operation. They know very well everything about my whereabouts, they know very well that I'm involved in an operation. Even if I hid this or that, they know very well that the order was given but I can't tell people beforehand. I can't tell Mzala, what if Mzala has changed his mind and now he's collaborating with the enemy and we would be killed during the operation? That means that I'll never tell before the attack, I will never tell the people before the attack.

MR WARNER: Okay. So then do we have to understand it was within your authority to decide on what kind of target to hit?

MR SHICEKA: As I've already mentioned what type of targets were described to us, no matter what I do it has to fall under that category, I mustn't do my own thing.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there were general instructions and the commander of a unit then selects the target. The entire organisation of APLA doesn't select specific targets and say go and hit this target or the other, they are given general instructions and the commander then picks the target. That is how I understand the evidence to be.

MR WARNER: Can it then be said Sir, that the commander had a discretion in picking the target?

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously he selects the target.

MR WARNER: Thank you, thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That's how I understand his evidence.

Mr Arendse, am I wrong?

MR ARENDSE: No, Mr Chairman, that's correct.

MR WARNER: I want to ask you also, this attack on the restaurant, is it not true that this was your first attack on a civilian or so-called soft target? Your attacks prior to that had all been on military installations, is that not correct?

MR SHICEKA: You see APLA was formed long ago in 1960 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] your first soft target, not APLA. It's the first soft target in which you were involved, that's the question.

MR SHICEKA: That was my first attack.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the answer.

MR WARNER: Did you not therefore feel that you were entering unfamiliar territory? Did it not strike you as something you were not used to doing?

CHAIRPERSON: He's now got to express to you how he felt about it? Mr Warner, what is it that you're really after?

MR WARNER: I would like him to tell me whether or not he felt this was a different operation from his previous operations, or was it just the same as all of the rest.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the differences are so obvious, even to me.

MR WARNER: Sir, he made a comment earlier on that there was no difference whatsoever between a soft target and a military target.

CHAIRPERSON: No, what they mean is that they don't draw a distinction.

MR WARNER: What I'm trying to establish Sir, is that there is indeed a distinction there and that he must have been aware of that distinction.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, they said that they don't draw a distinction. In other words, as far as APLA is concerned, they don't say: "We will only attack hard targets, military targets, we will not attack soft targets". They don't draw that distinction. They're not saying that there is no distinction, they don't draw that distinction. That is as I understand it.

MR WARNER: So can I understand that it follows from that, that as an APLA soldier, he himself did not feel that this was, there was any significance whatsoever in that this was his first soft target? Is that how we should understand it?

CHAIRPERSON: That there was no significance?

MR WARNER: No significance, it wasn't a moment for him, it wasn't a special time for him where he'd crossed over the line from soft targets, from hard targets to soft targets?

CHAIRPERSON: Listen carefully please. You attacked police stations, you attacked policemen at railway stations, with a view to getting their arms, that's one kind of activity. Now you are attacking a restaurant, not to get guns from the people but just to attack the people. In your mind, counsel wants to know, did you not have any difficulty in drawing a distinction that you're attacking unarmed people in a restaurant, as distinct from attacking policemen and soldiers?

MR SHICEKA: No.

MR WARNER: I put it to you finally that the target that you attacked was not a legitimate target, what is your comment?

MR SHICEKA: You say that was not a legitimate target, the one that we attacked? Is that what you are saying?

MR WARNER: That is correct yes, the restaurant.

MR SHICEKA: To me it was a legitimate target.

MR WARNER: Thank you Sir, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any re-examination Mr Arendse?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE: Just one Mr Chairperson.

In your written statement, Andile, you say in paragraph 6.1, just referring to your orders, in paragraph 6.1 you say the order was for you to come to Cape Town:

Now in your written application on page 20 of the bundle you also say that comrade, and I'm referring to paragraph 11(b), there's a question: "If so, state particulars of such an order and the persons who gave you the order". You say:

Now, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Arendse, what page are you reading from?

MR ARENDSE: Page 20 of the bundle, paragraph 11(b).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR ARENDSE: Is that the same thing that you were saying in paragraph 6.1 of your written statement?

MR SHICEKA: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you can stand down.

MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, we've got no other witnesses, that is the case for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, do you know whether the people who were his companions have applied for amnesty, people whose names have been mentioned here?

MR ARENDSE: No, Chairperson, they definitely haven't applied for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: They haven't?

MR ARENDSE: They haven't.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you proposing to call any witnesses?

MR WARNER: No, Sir, I have no witnesses.

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, no witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Where in Claremont is this restaurant, or is it no longer there?

MR WARNER: Sir, it is no longer there. Apparently the owner went bankrupt as a result of crippling medical expenses following the act. There is another restaurant in its place. This is on the corner of Landsdowne Road and Belvedere Road. I have a map if the Commission would like to have sight of such.

CHAIRPERSON: No, this is sufficient. And under what name was this restaurant at that time?

MR WARNER: It was called: "Stakes": S-T-A-K-E-S.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

Mr Arendse, will you address us now, or do you want a little time until tomorrow morning to do so?

MR ARENDSE: Can we have some time until tomorrow morning Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Some time, meaning early in the morning?

MR ARENDSE: First thing in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR ARENDSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be available? If you propose to address us, you may do so now.

MR WARNER: I would prefer to do so also in the morning if I may Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn the hearing until half past nine tomorrow morning.

MR ARENDSE: As you please Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.