--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to start. Mr Mapoma, I assume that we're dealing with the matter of Phila Martin Dolo?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, that is the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Just then for the purposes of this record. It is Tuesday, the 15th of September 1998. It's a sitting of the Amnesty Committee hearing the application of Phila Martin Dolo, case number 3485 of 1996. My name is Denzil Potgieter presiding, with Advocate Sigodi and Mr Lax. Mr Mapoma, would you place yourself on record please?

MR MAPOMA: I'm Zuko Mapoma, the evidence leader for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. And for Mr Dolo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, representing Mr Phila Dolo in this matter. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mapoma, is there anything that needs to be placed on record before we proceed?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman. What I would like to announce is that we are dealing with incidents here where in one incident a policeman was killed and another policeman injured.

In that incident, Chairperson, we have notified the next-of-kin of the deceased, in the person of Khanyise Chawuke. And the father of Khanyise Chawuke, the deceased, is - no, no, no. Sorry, Chairperson. Khanyise Chawuke is the father of the deceased. The deceased was Constable Mabaso. And then we have notified Sergeant Edward Nelushi who survived the shooting. There's an application for attempted murder on his life. He is here attending the proceedings. The next-of-kin of Mr Mabaso have indicated that they will not be coming to the proceedings. They will not be attending the hearing.

Then there is Mr E N Veldman on whose life an attempt was made. Also he was a policeman. At the time they went to arrest the applicant a shootout ensued. He is also here attending the proceedings as notified. That is the position, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. The family of the late Constable Mabaso, they are aware of the proceedings but have elected not to participate or to be present, is that correct?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And, is it Sergeant Nedushi?

MR MAPOMA: Sergeant Nelushi.

CHAIRPERSON: Nelushi, sorry. Nelushi in respect of the attempted murder count is present. Has he indicated any particular approach towards the matter? Is he simply attending to listen in or does he wish to oppose or does he wish anything in particular to be recorded from his perspective?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, he has indicated to me that he is not opposing the application, but he would like at some point to be considered as a victim, and to that end he would like to say something, address the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. But he is present? He is here?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, he's present here.

CHAIRPERSON: We can deal with that when we come to that point. And then Ian Veldman is also present you say. And what is his attitude?

MR MAPOMA: He is also present, Chairperson, and he is not opposing the application, but he's here to listen. But he has indicated to me that should any matter arise which he's not happy with, he will raise it with me. So I would bring it to the attention of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We'll bear that in mind. Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything that you wish to raise before we get into the application proper?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, there's none except to, as usually as yesterday, that the Committee has unsigned affidavits in the bundles, and that the signed affidavit, the original, is with the applicant, Mr Chairman.

As I indicated, that I will hand them when we have finalised the matter, the signed affidavit to the Committee. And also, Mr Chairman, maybe my colleague has forgotten the implicated persons, some of them, which appear here are also present here. I understand they have been notified to Godfrey, let me - Peter Mathebula and Godfrey Mochundu. They are present, Mr Chairman, in the proceeding.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Can you just give me that last surname? Godfrey?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Godfrey Mochundu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mochundu.

MR LAX: Are the names not the other way around, Mr Mbandazayo? It's Patrick Peter Mochundu and Godfrey Mathebula.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, yes. Thank you, thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I notice it is actually part of the papers. There are documents relating to those two. But you say they are present.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, they are present.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to proceed with the application? Do you wish us to swear in your client?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman. He may be sworn in, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Dolo. Would you please rise.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO (sworn states)

MR LAX: Thank you. Sworn in, Chairperson. You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I'll do as we did yesterday. I'll go through it for the benefit, if my colleague has - I think that will be the trend, Mr Chairman. I'll go through the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt you for a minute. In what language would your client be testifying? Before I explain, I want to explain just again the channels bit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, applicant is Xhosa-speaking, but I think he will be testifying in English, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. It doesn't matter. There is a translation as well. So, it's entirely up to him. He can make use of that. I think you can proceed, Mr Mbandazayo.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Dolo, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR DOLO: I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll proceed for the purposes of the record to read the affidavit. Mr Chairman, this time as I proceed I'll ask in some of the paragraphs to the applicant to expatiate and give clarification in some. I'll be glad if the Committee feels that way will stop me and ask questions on that. If it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Dolo, I would like in that paragraph just to tell the Committee if you know the name of this person who was the director of operation and who was also deputy director of - who was director of special operation and also deputy director of operation? The name of the person who deployed you in the Gauteng area.

MR DOLO: His alias name is Polite. I don't know his real name. Normally known as Sipho. Whether is it his real name, I don't know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just for the record, I would like to confirm that the real name is Sipho Bulelani Quma.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now also, Mr Chairman, just to go back. Now, just to go back, Mr Chairman, to paragraph 9. I've just forgotten, I wanted the applicant to tell the Committee in detail how they attacked the vehicle at Diepkloof which the police who happened, one of them, lost his life as a result of the attack. Can you tell the Committee how did this happen, this whole operation happened?

MR DOLO: As it is also stipulated in this chapter 3, number 10, whereby the police, through its security forces, they launch a sweep, a national sweep on the PAC offices and a lot of its members were apprehended. The following day, that I think was on the 26th, I think this police sweep was on the 25th, then the following day, the 26th I have the contact with Sipho telephonically. And he encouraged me that we have to intensify our operations in response to this aggression which was committed to the PAC. In that same a unit, I ordered a unit under the leadership of Kenny to go out and attack the police. But I learnt the following day that nothing crop up.

The same following day, that is on the 27th I again ordered him with the same unit to go out and attack the police station, the police, whether on their police van or whether moving on foot. They again, out of a lot of dilly-dallyings caused by one of the operatives names Musa. They were using Musa's car. So, Musa was having problems. That's the information I get from Kenny, that he was having problems with his cars. That led my involvement now, to be practically involved in these operations, that would be on the 28th.

Then on the 28, with the information from Peter Patrick Mochundu about the movement of the police in that area of Diepkloof and Orlando it was then that we decided to attack the police in questions. To the attack itself, in the morning, I think it was Friday, on the 28th, in the morning of that 28th, Friday, I was with Kenny at Diepkloof, Zone 2. Peter, Musa and Godfrey came to my place as we agreed the previous day to go and launch this attack.

The attack or an ambush was going to be carried out in the T-junction area of Orlando East and Diepkloof. Godfrey and Peter will be acting as warning group, will be giving me signals when the car is approaching. I deployed Godfrey to the area likely the car will use and Peter to the opposite direction. Myself, I will be - I acted as an assault group. I would be the one who will carry out the attack whilst Kenny will act as my security. We waited there and we got the signal from Godfrey and then I attacked the car and we withdraw.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee in your opinion, as you were there, you were the only one who attacked the car or did the other one also fired at the vehicle?

MR DOLO: I noticed when we retreated that Kenny was also firing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Can you, Mr Dolo, tell the Committee, was this operation a general operation or did it, this one, fall under the special operations?

MR DOLO: I was deployed there under special ops. All the operation I have to embark upon will be specifically for special operations. It also means the same one. It was in conjunction with the swept that was conducted against the PAC members' offices. That's how it come about.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Just for the benefit of the Committee, just to give them a clear picture. Is there any other operation which you are involved in or you ordered people to undertake as part of special operations when you were deployed in Gauteng?

MR DOLO: I also once ordered an operation that was carried out in the area of, I think Vereeniging, again of attack or ambush. I ordered that attack.

CHAIRPERSON: You say the Eikenhof issue?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You ordered that one?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that executed by your men?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, just give me a minute. Perhaps just for the purpose of the record, I can indicate that this particular incident that Mr Dolo is referring to, the Eikenhof incident, was due to have been heard in this session, but it is standing over pending the finalisation of certain court proceedings that will result pursuant to that particular matter. So, we won't be dealing with that incident in this application, but at a more appropriate stage we will in fact deal with that and finalise that particular one. Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. If there are no other questions, Mr Chairman, I will proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 13, Mr Chairman, I was about to quote:

Now, Mr Dolo, there's this person you have forgotten his name and I understand that when you were explaining you mentioned the name Kenny which it does not involve. Is this the person now, Kenny?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you remember?

MR DOLO: Yes, that's the one.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you only know the person by the name Kenny?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 14, Mr Chairman:

That's Kenny, Mr Chairman.

The date, Mr Chairman, has already been given, it was the 28th of May. Paragraph 19:

Mr Dolo, can you tell the Committee what happened when the police came to arrest you and who was with you? Were you with any other person when the police came to arrest you?

MR DOLO: I think that will be on the 30th or the 31st when this incident took place. It was on a Sunday. I was with Kenny, the one who was also involved in the Diepkloof attack, who was also involved in Eikenhof incident. The police came, I think it was early in the morning, very early in the morning after all. We hear the sound or the bricks caused by Nyala, one of the police van. We wake up and I told him that we have to fight. Normally the guns will be positioned in the position whereby we won't be caught napping, but in this time they were behind the mattress. That is the R4 and an AK which was in my room.

Whilst I was busy searching for the guns my friend who was with me, Kenny, jump out of the window. Then I took the R4 and whilst I was approaching the same window, I was approached or startled when I saw that there was a light directed to my face. I pointed the firearm to that direction and when I shoot it could not. The person who pointed that firearm I think was very shocked and perplexed because he cried, made some sound. He didn't shoot. After those few seconds trying to figure out what is the cause of the firearm, then he shoot me. Then I fell inside. I came out again trying to fight my way out. I was shot again.

Again on the third occasion I sort out the question of the firearm. I find out it was locked and this time my left hand was badly caught. I have to position the firearm in my elbow. When I came out again on the third occasion, I think I only manage if I shoot not more than one bullet. Then I was caught again from both of my hands. When I fell back again I was closely to the - there was a case, I was on top of it next to the bed. There were shots from all directions. I was then on top of the bed, then the shot caught me on both of my legs above the knee. Then I fell down.

They continue shooting until at some stage whereby they thought maybe it's over, because they found out maybe they are the only ones who were shooting. They kick off - open the door to my room. They drag me out of the house. I was only wearing an underwear at that stage. Outside the house I was positioned to lie with my back. They throw stand grenades to the adjacent house. I think two stand grenades were thrown and out of the explosion of those stand grenades a window debris fall in my body and cause some scar.

After that they came to me and started their interrogation. I was beaten up. They were kicking at me. Some will extinguish their cigarette butts on my face. They will make their interrogation asking me a lot of things. I was in pains. I don't think I even managed to answer them. I was in pains and I think I was crying up to an extent I lost consciousness. I awake at the hospital.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed, Mr Chairman, if no question?

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 21:

Mr Chairman, at this stage the applicant is finished with his submission. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the testimony?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. Now, just one thing, Mr Dolo, in paragraph 21 of your affidavit, the Yeoville attack, that Saturday that you refer to, was that the day before your arrest?

MR DOLO: That's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson. During the attack in Diepkloof against the policemen, how were you armed?

MR DOLO: Myself, I was armed with an R4 automatic weapon. Kenny was having an AK47. I learnt yesterday that Godfrey was having two grenades with him. I think Chinese stick grenades and Pat was not armed. Musa remained in the car.

MR MAPOMA: Now, in your evidence-in-chief you have indicated that you did the shooting and you believe that Kenny also shot. Are you the only people who attacked?

MR DOLO: For attack or for an assault group, I was the one who attacked the car. Whilst I was withdrawing I saw him also shooting. He was not far away from the car. I think not more than 30cms - not more than 30 metres from it.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that some handgrenades were thrown at the motor vehicle?

MR DOLO: I learnt from Godfrey who was having grenades that he lost one of the grenades. I don't know how he lost it. He was not supposed to use them. He was not supposed to take part in the assault unit.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying he possibly did throw it to the motor vehicle?

MR DOLO: I believe him when he say he lost it, that he didn't throw it to the police van.

MR LAX: Mr Mapoma, just for the record. That handgrenade you're referring to, had it exploded? Was it still unexploded when that was found? Are you able to elucidate that? Just so that we put the correct version to the witness.

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately, sir, I can't say whether it did explode or not at this stage, unless I can verify it. Thanks. Now, on the Sunday when you were to be arrested by these two policemen - I mean by the police group, is it your evidence that you shot once at those policemen?

MR DOLO: I believe so. I think I release one bullet. I think so, in my last attempt.

MR MAPOMA: And in your evidence-in-chief that bullet of yours was after some shots were fired at you?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying therefore that you shot in response to the shooting that was made by the police against you?

MR DOLO: Not per se. I shot because I had to shoot them. I came out that house to shoot them, and also to fight my way out.

MR MAPOMA: So, is it not the position that you shot in defence against the attack that was launched by the police against you?

MR DOLO: To fight my way out it means I shot in defence.

CHAIRPERSON: But, Mr Dolo, did I understand you correctly, you had a problem with your firearm, it was locked I think you said.

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So, if it wasn't locked you would have initiated the attack? You would have been shooting earlier than you did?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: If I could just put it another way. I mean you were basically resisting arrest. You wanted to get away. You would have done what was required to try and escape?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: That's obvious.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Thank you, sir. Now, at the Yeoville attack which you instructed some forces to attack there. What exactly was your target there?

MR DOLO: The information about the target or the reconnaissance was conducted by Pat and Godfrey, I believe also Musa was familiar with that area. They were the three people who knew that area very much, or area of Yeoville. So, they told me that they were going to attack a police station. I have to provide them with explosives. Then I give them the explosives and then I order them then to carry on with their mission.

MR MAPOMA: So, is it your evidence that your order was to attack the police station at Yeoville?

MR DOLO: They were going to plant an explosive there.

MR MAPOMA: I would just like your comment on this one. It transpires in the court judgment against you that the attack was aimed at the Polish Club at Yeoville, and not the police station as such, and the Polish Club was an attack on civilians so to speak, was intended to be an attack on civilians. What is your comment on this one?

MR DOLO: Well, I agree with you, that that was the statement from the police. That's what they wanted the court to believe. But from the unit and from my knowledge, the attack was going to be the police station.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.

Any questions? Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Mr Dolo, we've spoken before, as you know, and just on the issue of what would have happened, this is just asking you as a commander, if subsequent to this attack the cadres under your command had in fact placed that bomb say at the Polish Club instead of the police station, that, as I understand it, would have still be in line with PAC policy at that time. There was no distinction between civilian and military targets in terms of APLA's policy. Certainly from the matters I've heard, that seems to be the case, but you may want to correct me on that.

MR DOLO: Well, we are talking here about people who are trained to follow orders, not to do what they are pleased to do. If they say they were ordered to go and attack a police station then they will do so. I don't think in such incident we'll come across such cases whereby people will be ordered to carry this particular mission then they carry their own mission. It's a ...(indistinct), you won't get it.

MR LAX: So, do you think that's very, very unlikely, that that was their intended objective in spite of what the police may have said?

MR DOLO: It will not have happened.

MR LAX: Where is Kenny now?

MR DOLO: I don't know. I'm in gaol. I don't know what is happening outside. I don't know where is he.

MR LAX: And as I understand it, the people that were with you that you commanded, Patrick and Godfrey who were convicted with you, have also applied for amnesty, is that correct?

MR DOLO: For which case?

MR LAX: For this case. For the Yeoville attack.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just for the record, I want to place on record that I've been trying since June this year, making endeavours to talk to the police. I've spoken also to the Minister of Police. We are trying to get hold of the documents which were confiscated in Lesotho and Umtata of the PAC. We are having problem with the names.

The information I received was that from the commanders and the director of operation that it's very difficult to them to tell me who was Kenny, because most of the cases you find that there were five Kennys. If somebody goes to another and they remove from that particular area, they give him another name and they give to another person. So, they will make - they will say so-and-so yet it was not so-and-so. They have a record where they were keeping the names that this one, so-and-so was given this name when he was moving to that area. The Minister has responded to me, has said he is looking at the matter. I have not yet managed to get the information. We are trying our best to get that information to assist us in some of these cases. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: If it's any consolation, Mr Mbandazayo, we're trying to get the same information to see whether we can process those applications that we can't identify the individuals. You will remember there was a problem with those matters. So, we're also looking for the very same information that you're looking for. Obviously if we get it we'll let you know, and make it available to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Dolo, in your first application, the first one in the bundle, at page 5, you make reference to a man who gave you orders in paragraph 11(b), by the name of Carl Zimbiri. Now I understand that's a Timarangan(?) name, but you've mentioned a different person, someone called Polite as being the person who gave you the instructions. Who was Carl Zimbiri?

MR DOLO: The name Carl Zimbiri was adopted by the high command to be used as one of the names whereby APLA commanders will claim responsibility under it. So, in this incident I was referring to Sipho.

MR LAX: Okay. So, that was just another alias of Sipho then?

MR DOLO: Not per se. I may use it, even myself.

MR LAX: Okay. When did you come back into the country?

MR DOLO: '92. Around June, I think so. June/July '92.

MR LAX: And where were you deployed initially at that time?

MR DOLO: Transkei.

MR LAX: In the Transkei.

MR DOLO: Sterkspruit.

MR LAX: It was only later that you then moved to - when did you move to the Johannesburg area, Soweto?

MR DOLO: Now lately, '93.

MR LAX: Only in '93. Can you remember more or less when in '93?

MR DOLO: I think around February, earlier in the year.

MR LAX: Who else formed part of the unit that Kenny and Godfrey and Peter were involved in?

MR DOLO: It was Musa.

MR LAX: Was it Musa. Just the four of them?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: And did you command any other units in addition to that?

MR DOLO: There will be units having their own commanders. I would be in charge myself as original commander. They will report to me.

MR LAX: Yes, that's precisely what I'm asking.

MR DOLO: Like the unit that carried out the operation in Eikenhof. It was their reporting to me.

MR LAX: I'm just interested how many other units may have operated under you as regional commander?

MR DOLO: There were many units, and I don't know how many were there. I don't want to guess.

MR LAX: And did you report the individual operations through to the directorate on a regular basis? I understand it was practice to report, to send reports of operations through to the director either by courier or by telephone.

MR DOLO: Yes, I did report reports if there were attacks or whatever.

MR LAX: And did you report this attack in Diepkloof?

MR DOLO: I've done it I think telephonically, if my memory still serve me well.

MR LAX: Ja, no, that's correct, telephonic. So it was this particular attack. Did the Eikenhof attack take place before this one, this Diepkloof attack?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: And did you do that report on that attack?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Now, where did you get these explosives from?

MR DOLO: I get them in Transkei.

MR LAX: And did you personally go to the Transkei to collect them and courier them up, or did you get someone else to do that?

MR DOLO: No, it was my courier.

MR LAX: And where and who in the Transkei would they have come from?

MR DOLO: From Sipho.

MR LAX: Who was your courier?

MR DOLO: It was Jojo Manqgela.

MR LAX: Jojo. Sorry, just repeat the surname.

MR DOLO: Manqgela or Manqdela. I think so.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman, it was Lawrence Manqdela. They call him - other name was that it was General. He's the late, he died in a car accident, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: In the Yeoville attack, apart from Godfrey, Musa and Patrick, who else formed part of that group?

MR DOLO: I think they were the only three people who were there.

MR LAX: Ja. Because in the judgment of that trial there is mention of a fourth person who joined them and met with them and then disappeared again.

MR DOLO: In my knowledge there were only three. I heard it also in court, whilst we were sitting in court.

MR LAX: Ja. Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dolo, the Yeoville attack happened on the Saturday. You've already told me that. But was it planned a few days prior to that?

MR DOLO: I know about the incident or the question of this police station to be attacked prior the attack at Diepkloof. I think it was on Saturday, early in the morning, whereby Patrick Mochundu and Musa came to my place and they wanted to discuss this matter. So I told them that I will met them later after 10 minutes or 20 minutes at Godfrey's place. Then I went to their place with the explosives and I showed them how to work them out, and they said they were going to proceed to attack the police station. Then I left them there.

CHAIRPERSON: This appears to have been a set up. You said that Musa turned out to be a police informer?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In the group?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that the police then, one assumes, must have been tipped off that this is what was going to happen?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So in a sense it was really a set up in a way?

MR DOLO: It was after all a set up. Even in court, it was revealed even in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Does this Yeoville attack also fall under the special operations?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That you referred to earlier?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you testified that was part of response to the swoop on the PAC/APLA by the police?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it would have been in line with the general approach to those special operations that you've referred to?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But was most of this you knew that there was this plan to attack a police station, but was most of that done by the unit and they just approached you when they were on the verge of actually executing the attack, and they wanted the explosives to use in the attack?

MR DOLO: The attack of that police station at Yeoville, it was supposed to be done prior the one at Diepkloof. Then after the incident of Diepkloof then we decided then to continue with this one of Yeoville.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So, you were kept abreast, you were kept informed?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume there was reconnaissance.

MR DOLO: The accused used to go to that area. I think every weekend they used to go there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: So, do I understand you correctly from what you've just said, that in fact when you started your evidence you spoke of an attack on a police station in response to the swoop, and you spoke about that being aborted for various reasons and Musa's vehicle breaking down, and just seemed to be dilly and dallying, that's the way you put it, if I remember your words correctly. At which point you then took charge and pushed the operation a bit harder. Is that the attack that was supposed to happen on Yeoville that didn't happen until after the Diepkloof attack? Have I understood you correctly?

MR DOLO: No, the ones that happened prior the one at Diepkloof were the one that took place on the 26th.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR DOLO: And also on the 27th. The one of Yeoville was known even prior those attacks, but it was also added now as part of this campaign but the APLA to respond to this aggression. That's how I acted.

MR LAX: Okay. So, that's what I was wanting to clarify. It was in fact not a special operation initially, it was one you were planning before that?

MR DOLO: All operations that were under my command were part of special operations.

MR LAX: Okay. Let me put it differently then. It wasn't an operation in response to the swoop initially?

MR DOLO: Yes, initially.

MR LAX: But it was then brought under that ambit.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Once the swoop had happened and once those instructions were given?

MR DOLO: That's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just if the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: If the Committee would, I think the applicant would like to say something now that he has given evidence to especially the victims and the families, those who are present. He would like to say something with that.

CHAIRPERSON: That's in order. Please go ahead, Mr Dolo.

MR DOLO: To start with after all with our struggle as the PAC. Throughout history people have demonstrated their rebelliousness against oppression, against exploitation forced upon them by the avaricious, the greedy and the ...(indistinct) vile systems or Governments.

The people also demonstrated their commitment to world history, a stepping stone to the emancipation of mankind under the vanguard body, that is PAC whereby they call, inter alia, for the overthrowal of the white domination. That was the images of the APLA. The APLA images to carry forward the people's mandate, that is of the defending of Azania, its wealth and its people. And in that struggle the police and the army were regarded as the pillars of white domination of the settler colonialism and that distinguished them to be the prime targets of our bullets.

And further to that, police have been seen by the masses as the instrument for protecting their property and the political order of the haves. So, our struggle therefore, it has nothing personally or in whatever action I was involved in it, it has nothing to do personally with the victims that we are dealing with in this matter. It was part and parcel of the mandate to carry forward. So personally I had no vendetta against the family or the one who passed away. It's a pity that people have to die. After all, death I believe it is supposed to be a universal taboo, something to be treated, but it has to be. It has been taking place for centuries and on our part if you happened to be involved as it is demonstrated by history, we carried it out in self-defence and as a mean to an end. And after all it's a law of killing that the law of killing is to end killing. That's what I could say.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Is there any other evidence that you wish to present?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, that's the applicant's case, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, I've one witness, but as I indicated earlier on, I mean the evidence of him will not be addressing the merits of the application as such, but he would like to give evidence as a victim. So, I wonder if I can call him at this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we would like to deal with all of the evidence and then we would prefer to hear addresses and see if we can finalise the matter. So, although it appears not to be on the merits of the matter, we'll hear the witness as this stage as part of finalising the testimony and then we can proceed into the next phase of the hearing. So, please go ahead.

MR MAPOMA: Sir, can I just get a short adjournment so that I can arrange a sitting?

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for a short while, and you will indicate to us when you are ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I'm calling Mr Edward Nelushi.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him sworn in?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, please.

MR LAX: Mr Nelushi, will you please stand.

MOLALO EDWARD NELUSHI (sworn states)

MR LAX: Sworn in, Chairperson. You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax. Mr Mapoma?

EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Would you place your full names on the record?

MR NELUSHI: My full names is Molalo Edward Nelushi.

MR MAPOMA: Is it correct that you are a policeman stationed at Meadowlands?

MR NELUSHI: Ja, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Is it correct that on the 26th of May 1993 you were stationed at Meadowlands Police Station?

MR NELUSHI: Ja, correct.

MR MAPOMA: Do you recall the incident which happened on that day when you were on duty?

MR NELUSHI: Ja, I do.

MR MAPOMA: And do you confirm that that incident is what is the subject of this hearing today?

MR NELUSHI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And you were one of the policemen who were attacked on that day, is that correct?

MR NELUSHI: Ja, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Would you please tell the Committee how this happened?

MR NELUSHI: I was actually the passenger in the police van that was driven by the late Constable Jacob Mabaso. We were conveying members who just went off duty from Meadowlands to Orlando, and on our way back we took the road that led us to the Soweto freeway which was at the intersection between Diepkloof and Orlando.

Just on the intersection we were forced to stop by a robot that turned red and a couple of seconds after we stopped there actually I personally heard a sound, sort of a banging thing at the back and I tried to look out of the window, only to find - actually when I looked out of the window I saw these guys who were like firing towards our van. I didn't know what exactly was going on, but I remember I screamed for Jacob and I just said, "Jakes", and I tried to pull out my firearm but I was struck by the first bullet on my shoulder, on my right shoulder and my hand went limp. And I went down between the dashboard and the seat just in the passage into the car trying to duck the bullets that were like showering at us. I was shot several times while lying inside the car until I lost consciousness, and I only woke up I think after the car hit the railings on the other side of the road, because we were standing in the robot and apparently when Jakes was shot he lost control of the vehicle and it was in some kind of a steep slope. So, the vehicle went down until it hit the railings on the other side of the road. And that's when I woke up. When I woke up I looked at Jakes who was then sitting in the driver's seat and I tried to call him, but unfortunately my voice didn't come out and at that point in time his head went like down like this and I think he was gone. I tried to get up and I realised that my whole body was sort of stiff, I couldn't move. The only part of my body that I could move then was my left hand, and with my left hand I pulled the door and when I pulled the door all the glasses from the bullet that broke the glasses, all the glasses like fell on me and my whole weight went to the left side of my body and I was like - I actually fell to the ground from the car. On the ground I realised that my gun was actually in my right hand, but the trigger gun had hanged in my small finger. That was the time when I tried to pull out my gun, it only landed up in my left finger and I couldn't move my hands, I couldn't move anything except for my left hand and I tried to scream but my voice didn't come out.

I realised that I was shot, but at the stage I didn't even know where was I hit because I had blood all over from the top of my head down to my legs. I lied on the ground for several minutes which I can't remember how long exactly, and in a while someone came. I didn't know who the person was. That person came very close to me and I thought he was like one of those guys and he was just going to shoot me and kill me, because maybe he realised I was still alive. And the person came to me. He pulled out my right hand which had my gun in it and he took my gun and he pulled - I had on a jersey, he pulled my jersey and put the gun under my jersey and covered it. Then he untied my boots and he pulled off my boots and untied my field dress trouser as it was like tied and he took off I think socks, if I remember well. Then he lied me on my back on the ground. He was talking, but I couldn't make out what he was saying because I was like almost half dead and in a while I opened my eyes and realised that there was a car standing, I think it was an ambulance because I heard the little sound of this ambulance, the sirens. I was put into that car and that was the last time I was conscious at the scene of crime.

MR MAPOMA: So, were you taken to the hospital?

MR NELUSHI: ...to the hospital.

MR MAPOMA: Are there any bodily injuries that you suffered?

MR NELUSHI: Yes. I suffered several gunshot wounds. I had two shots on my right shoulder. Actually three from the back, one from the front and I had another three shots on my lower back and I think four, if not five on my right buttock that went through into the stomach.

As a result I had several operations and leading to the impairment of the nerves in my right foot, and a colostomy being inserted in my stomach for a couple of months, I think for five or six months which was only removed, I think it's on 1994 late. And like a lot of things that happened to my body is, they can be maybe explained by the doctor, but the fact is at this point in time I'm still undergoing treatment due to those injuries, and as a matter of fact in the past two weeks when I was contacted by your offices that I was lying in hospital.

I had a gastroscopy due to some pains that were from the insertion of the colostomy and the operations that I have. And I also have a permanent deficit on the right leg which is described by my doctor as a 39% disability on my right of foot. As a matter of fact I cannot get involved in any active duties like I used to before.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Now, you've heard the applicant applying for amnesty, telling why he did it and what did he do. What is your attitude regarding this application for amnesty?

MR NELUSHI: What I can say about the application of amnesty by the aforesaid person here, Mr Phila Dolo, that I don't have any negativity against him as a person because in the first place I don't think he knew me and secondly, I don't know him too. I only started seeing him in a couple of days, actually hearing from him because the whole thing is I don't know if maybe I would have been at some stage back in his shoes, maybe I could have done the same thing.

I don't know, but the fact is I don't have anything in person against him and I, to that point, don't have any problem in him applying for amnesty in the incident that happened. Yes, of course, I personally lost a friend in the whole thing and some people did lose families and as much as I am still a sick man due to those things that happened there, but the whole thing is I cannot turn back the clock and say let's redo things again, but there's nothing I can do at this stage, but I don't have anything in person, I don't have any negativity in him applying for amnesty.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Is there anything which you want to raise to the Committee perhaps?

MR NELUSHI: What I would like to say to the Committee is the fact that I was actually victimised and it was then that it happened and what I actually would like to put straight is that I don't know what the Committee will say to the whole issue of this amnesty application, but from my point of view as a victim I still repeat it, I don't have anything against the people who did this, and the Committee should only consider me as a victim, as one of those victims that has actually suffered. Unfortunately the family of my other colleague did not turn up today, but maybe what I could say is that if he means it that he was acting upon orders from his organisation, as we call it, then it means had it been maybe a personal thing I don't think he could have done it. That's basically what I can say.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Nelushi, what is your date of birth?

MR NELUSHI: I was born in 1968, October 20.

CHAIRPERSON: October 20?

MR NELUSHI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your marital status?

MR NELUSHI: I am single.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have your contact address?

MR NELUSHI: Yes, sir, I supplied my address to the officials.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're still stationed, is it at Meadowlands you said?

MR NELUSHI: Ja, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what sort of duty do you do nowadays?

MR NELUSHI: I'm actually in the detective department, but not very active duties like before. What I usually do is most of the inside office and supply maybe knowledge to the newly appointed members of the detective unit, if I should call it that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that as a result of the injuries and the consequences of the injuries?

MR NELUSHI: Ja, that's correct. Since I got shot I never was involved in any active duties again, because I actually couldn't stand on my right foot for over maybe two/three minutes without changing positions. I cannot run like I used to. I cannot play soccer, I used to play soccer before. I used to get involved in a lot of sports things, but I cannot due to the injuries, I cannot do that any longer. And I am actually only an office man for now. And that is actually permanent because it is also stated in my medical reports that I won't be able to do what I used to do before the 28th of May 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any dependants?

MR NELUSHI: Yes, I do. I'm actually a sole breadwinner in my family. We are six in my family. I'm the eldest of the boys and I've got my mother who's a widow. I have two younger brothers and I have three older sisters and I've got two children. The abovementioned are all dependant on me.

CHAIRPERSON: What are their ages and the sex of the children? Are they boys or girls?

MR NELUSHI: My two children are boys. The oldest is 10 and the youngest is 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Mbandazayo, questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I have no questions, except I just want just to say something to him, to the victim on behalf of the applicant. Mr Nelushi, I know that you spoke to Mr Dolo yesterday and I also spoke to you, but I want to say that on my behalf and also on his behalf again to say that we sympathise with what you went through during that day and what you are still suffering from, and as you also correctly put it, that he did not know you and he had nothing personal against you. And on those words I want to say that we appreciate your remarks regarding the whole incident and your understanding of the circumstances under which it happened. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any questions? Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just a comment, Chairperson. That as Mr Mbandazayo has said, we find your understanding of the circumstances incredibly heartening and we think very positive for the promotion of reconciliation in this country, and we want to thank you for your strength and the character that you've shown here, and for your bravery in coming forward and speaking here. Thank you for coming.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, is there anything else?

MR MAPOMA: That is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nelushi. Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready to address us?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm ready. Mr Chairman, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm sorry. Of course, Mr Nelushi, you're excused from where you are. Of course you're free to be present if you wish, but you are excused from further testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO ADDRESSES: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I won't be long in my address, sir, but I'll only touch on a few aspects, Mr Chairman. Some have been covered in the judgment. Mr Chairman, the only aspect I will deal with is the question of disclosure extensively, but I want just for the purpose of the completeness of this matter. Mr Chairman, there's no doubt that Phila Dolo was a member of APLA, and as such a member of PAC, and that at Gauteng he was not familiar with this area. He's originally from the Eastern Cape. He only came to Gauteng only for a specific mission and that mission was on behalf of his organisation, that is APLA, and this incident was part of his action as a member of APLA.

Mr Chairman, as I indicated, I don't want to waste time. The court judgment also - normally in cases of this nature, Mr Chairman, earlier you find people denying even if they were members of political organisation, let alone of being APLA. I know that they deny they are APLA. Of course, one knows that everybody wants to get away with whatever he's charged of, but also it's also clear in the judgment, also even the Judge accepted that his actions in particular, because the others were acquitted, that is Peter and Godfrey, that his action with regard to this incident were political. And also it transpired during the mitigation of sentence when the Deputy Secretary of PAC then, Carter Sliga, came and gave evidence and he also confirmed that they were members of APLA, though also the Judge said that it's clear though they were denying it. Then it covers now that portion that they belong to a recognised political organisation, because also the court accepted that, and also the political motive it was also accepted by the court.

Now, Mr Chairman, the point which is left is that whether the applicant has made full disclosure before this Committee. Mr Chairman, it is my submission that the applicant has made full disclosure regarding his participation in these incidents. The Diepkloof attack and the incident regarding surrounding his arrest what he did, Mr Chairman. He forthrightly told the Committee what actually took place, even went to the extent of telling the Committee about even that there were delays, which even the Committee would not have been aware that he was not going to participate initially, would not have been aware of that. But the way he put it, he wanted the Committee to have a fuller picture of what was happening. He took the Committee to his confidence and told the Committee what actually took place. And he did not lie to say that somebody else did the shooting. He told the Committee that, "I was in the assault group. I'm the person who did the shooting, and I was supposed to do the shooting".

And as such, Mr Chairman - and also he went further even before his arrest that, "I was the person who was going to initiate the person because I was going to avoid arrest. That was the reason, I wanted to get away. I was going to shoot the police, but unfortunately my firearm jammed". So, he does not deny or hide any role he played in this matter, regarding the whole issue of Diepkloof and surrounding his arrest.

And also, Mr Chairman, even his part in the Yeoville incident, that he supplied the weapons that were going to be used in the Yeoville Police Station attack. Though I think, Mr Chairman, if I'm correct in reading the judgment, also that he was not, I don't think he was charged for that offence initially. He was only convicted of possession of arms which were found in the house. But he went further to tell the Committee that, "I was also involved in that incident, because I'm the person who supplied and who gave the order that they can go and carry out the operation". And, Mr Chairman, as I indicated that I don't want to waste the time of this Committee regarding this part, suffice to say that I submit that the applicant have complied with the requirements of Section 20(1) and (3) and it is quite clear that he was acting on behalf of APLA, a publicly known political organisation and the liberation movement, which was engaged in the political struggle against the State at that time. And also, Mr Chairman, that the applicant did not act for personal gain or out of personal malice or ill-will or spite directed against the deceased and the victims. It is quite clear that he had no personal knowledge of these people and that he merely carried out the instructions, and he acted within the course and scope of his activities as a member of APLA and also as a commander of APLA.

And on that basis, Mr Chairman, we are submitting and requesting that this Committee grant the amnesty to Phila Dolo as he applied for it. Unless the Committee wants me to address on any point, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. You're asking for amnesty in respect of Diepkloof and the Yeoville incidence?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Diepkloof, Mr Chairman, and also the attempted murder on the ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, I'll repeat it. Mr Chairman, in respect of Diepkloof, also the possession of arms and ammunition as he was convicted.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, can you refer to page 22 of the record. They list a number of counts. Do you want to just take us through that or refer to your application with reference to those incidents.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, let me thank you for the assistance. Mr Chairman, as I indicated that we would like to apply for the amnesty to be granted for the incident which was in terms of the case, count one which was the murder of the Mabaso. That is the incident at Diepkloof. And also, Mr Chairman, the attempted murder of the victim Mr Nelushi who was also here, and also, Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that count two, Mr Mbandazayo, the attempted murder?

MR MBANDAZAYO: The attempted murder of Mr Nelushi which is count two, this is there. Also, Mr Chairman, the count three which was the contravention of Section 32, which is unlawful possession of machine guns which was AK, R4. And also count four, Mr Chairman, which was also a contravention, possession of ammunition intended to be fired from a machine gun, machine rifle or any similar ornament which is the ammunition which was going to be used, and AK and R4.

CHAIRPERSON: At Diepkloof?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Diepkloof, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: If I could assist you, Mr Mbandazayo. If you look at page 38, on page 2 of the judgment you will see that the Judge describes these counts in quite a lot of detail. He goes through all the counts quite carefully.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Ja.

MR LAX: And if you look at page 23, you'll see what Mr Dolo was actually convicted of, which of those counts specifically.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Or 22, if you read the sentence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

MR LAX: Are those the matters for which your client is applying?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, the one which he was convicted of, Mr Chairman. Which also include the attempted murder, which was count eight (8), Mr Chairman, on the policemen who went to arrest him on the day of his arrest, where they were the shooting ensued.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to clarify it. Your client was not convicted in respect of the Yeoville incident, but you have included it in your application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman. He was not convicted, but we applied for amnesty because he was definitely - though there was no evidence in court of his involvement, he was definitely involved in some way because he gave an order and he also supplied to them with the ammunition. So that was the reason we put it.

CHAIRPERSON: So, what we have is the application in respect of all of these counts as listed on page 22 of our record in respect of which he was convicted, including the Yeoville incident?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Well, that concludes the evidence and the arguments in this matter. We would need to take a bit of time to consider our decision in the matter. We are hopeful of giving a decision as quickly as possible.

We know that you are still involved in the rest of the proceedings and hopefully we might be able to deal with the matter in this particular session, but we will inform both yourself and Mr Mapoma about how we intend and when we intend to present the decision. So, for the purposes of this particular application we will adjourn the matter at this stage to consider our decision, and we will notify you when we are in a position to actually give that. I know, Mr Mbandazayo, you are also involved in the remaining two matters on our role, which I understand you actually kindly agreed to take the instruction on at a very late stage, in fact I think at the beginning of this week only. So, I accept that you obviously are not in a position to proceed with those matters immediately, you would obviously need a bit of time to prepare for those two matters.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would appreciate that time if I can be given this afternoon so that to facilitate the whole thing, because definitely if we start without proper consultation it can take us a very long time. So, if I can be given this time of this afternoon and consult with them. Yesterday I tried but the Correctional Services have to rush with them to gaol. So, now that we've finished earlier in this matter, I can have time with them here and consult with them and make full preparation for tomorrow. So, hopefully that will enable to fit them tomorrow if everything goes well.

CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you very much. We do appreciate your assistance and your willingness to assist those two applicants as well. And hopefully you are in a position to make the preparations in respect of both those two matters so that we might be able to deal with them consecutively if it is possible. So, under those circumstances we will adjourn the proceedings today and we will reconvene at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning in order to deal with the remaining two matters on our role, and as I've indicated, we will notify you what we intend doing in respect of the judgment, the decisions.

Can I just ask the Correctional Service's representatives just to please take note that we won't be sitting this afternoon, but the time will be used to prepare for the remaining two matters which are on our roll. So, would you ensure that those two persons are made available to Mr Mbandazayo so that he can prepare for the rest of the afternoon and you don't remove them immediately to prison. So please do that so that we can try and conclude our proceedings without any further interruption. Thank you very much. We will then adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

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