NAME: NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE

DAY: 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: We're now in session. We are proceeding with the matter of Mvijane which stood down yesterday afternoon. For the purposes of the record, it's Thursday, the 17th of September 1998. There are two applications before this session of the Amnesty Committee. It's the application of Mr Mvijane, number AM7355/94 and the application of Mr Khwankwa, reference number AM3868/96. Presiding, Denzil Potgieter, together with Advocate Sigodi and Mr Lax. Representing the Commission, Mr Mapoma, please put yourself on record.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. I'm Zuko Mapoma, the evidence leader for the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We have been notified, it was brought to our attention that arrangements were made yesterday afternoon and some of that discussion with one of the family members is on record and it was brought to our attention that Miss Cambanis was approached with a possible view to assisting the next-of-kin of the deceased in the application. We are aware of the fact that she has been consulting with the next-of-kin and she is present at the proceedings. Perhaps, Mr Mapoma, just for the purposes of the record you can perhaps just confirm and put on record the position of Miss Cambanis.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Mr Chair. I'm assisted here by Miss Nomsa Magida. We have, it is correct, consulted with the family members present this morning. In essence, regarding the procedure, they persist in their opposition to this application on the grounds that it is neither politically motivated in the sense that this is a continuation of criminal activities of the applicants. And secondly, on the ground of disclosure, that on the papers before this Committee there are material contradictions in the versions and the truth is not being told on the papers before the Committee. We have then consulted with family members, together with Mr Mapoma, and they understand that I have not had opportunity to familiarise myself with the papers to the same extent as my learned friend has, and that he's in fact in a better position to oppose the application at this stage than I am and they are therefore satisfied that he continue acting on their behalf in opposing both applications. Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Cambanis, thank you very much. Can I just express our appreciation for making yourself available at very short notice, and for assisting at least in facilitating the hearing of this particular application. We are indeed indebted to you and to your colleague. Thank you very much.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May we be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ...(inaudible)

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that takes care of that. Mr Mbandazayo, would you want to just go on record first?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicants in this matter. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Mapoma, is there any other preliminary issue that you wish to deal with before we proceed with the application itself?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, save to confirm what Miss Cambanis has said, I don't have any other matter to raise at this point.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, there's not much except to say that as there are the second applicant, I'm did not manage to take down an affidavit when it comes to him. What I will do is that he will, after this first applicant, come and confirm and then he will be subject to questions thereafter on whatever issue which is relevant to this matter. I will handle the matter in that manner, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, thank you. In fact in anticipation we also know that you had taken the instruction to represent Mr Khwankwa also on very short notice. So we are indebted to you as well in that regard. Do you want to proceed with the application of Mr Mvijane first, and you want him sworn in?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, he can be sworn in.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mvijane, would you please stand.

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE (sworn states)

MR LAX: Sworn in, Chairperson. You may be seated, Mr Mvijane.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax. Mr Mbandazayo?

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mvijane, the affidavit in front of you is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, I do. I asked somebody to write it down for me, a person who understands English better, and I explained it to him, then he wrote it down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mvijane, I'm not talking about your application, I'm talking about the paper in front of you.

MR MVIJANE: Yes, I do confirm that whatever is contained therein is from me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, may I proceed then to read the affidavit as usual?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR MBANDAZAYO:

Mr Chairman, the spelling of Moss will be a double "s". Thank you.

Mr Mvijane, can you, with regard to that paragraph, tell the Committee, before you were recruited by Moss what were you doing? What were your activities?

MR MVIJANE: Before I got to know Moss, I grew up being a delinquent and I was involved in gangsterism and stealing cars. I even got arrested for car theft as well as rape, two counts of rape. As time went on Moss came to me. It was the first time I saw him. It was myself, Lulamile as well as Doctor when we were visited by Moss. We were smoking dagga when he got to my place, that is where I was staying with my mother. We were quite surprised as to what his visit entailed, but he wanted us to share the joint with him, that is the dagga joint. We gave it to him. He also requested us to give him some more of the dagga because he was not satisfied with the one that he got from us. We explained to him that it was finished. Then he gave us a R50,00 note to buy some more dagga. Lulamile Kkwankwa took the money and he went to buy some more dagga. Lulamile Khwankwa came back with the dagga and we smoked and also bought food with the money from Moss.

And Moss at that stage started asking me as to which political organisations I belonged to or we belonged to. I told him that we were not involved in any politics, but I had a desire to join or support the PAC. And he asked me as to what we were doing idling in the location. I told him that I was involved in gangsterism and he explained to me that it was not a good idea for me to belong to a gangster or a group of criminals, and he further asked me to stop being a member of the gangster. I agreed with him, because what he was saying to me was quite true and that's when I realised the mistakes that I had committed before as a growing young man, and I was recruited by Moss.

He asked me as to whether I was able to use a firearm and I told him that I was not able to because I had never handled a firearm before. He asked me whether I knew how to handle an AK47. I told him that I'd never seen an AK. And he asked me as to whether I had a desire to see or handle it. I agreed with him and said I wanted to see the AK47.

He further explained to me that he does not have a place to stay and he wanted to stay with me. But I explained it to him that we had hired the place which was not our own place and we shared the house with the people who stayed there, that is the owners of the house. So I was not able to give him a place of abode. Maybe if I could get my own place we could share. I talked to the owners of the house who explained that if he was not a problematic person he could join us in that house. So we stayed together with Moss, though I don't remember as to what the date was when we started staying together and what month it was.

I stayed with Moss and he let me into the secrets of the PAC and also made me politically aware and conscious of the political climate that existed at that time. He told me that the enemies were police, soldiers, as well as all the other people who were working for the previous regime. He explained to me that he wanted myself, Lulamile as well as Doctor to be members of the PAC who were going to fight for the black nation against the oppressive Government rather than being criminals.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Mr Chairman, I will proceed to paragraph 6 as he has already covered also paragraph 5.

MR MVIJANE: Sorry. There is a mistake somewhere somehow. It's not Zinzeni Zulu, it's Mduzeni Zulu. That is the boy who stayed in the same yard where I was staying.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Zinzeni Zulu, Mr Chairman, there was a mistake. It's another Zulu who testified in court. That's Zinzeni that one. This one was Mbuzeni Zulu, the one in this.

MR MVIJANE: ...[no Englsih translation]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, it's Mbuzeni. It's Mbuzeni this one, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

That's a typographical error.

Now, Mr Mvijane, can you take the Commission through the process. What happened after you were arrested and assaulted? What happened thereafter?

MR MVIJANE: After the arrest, the police retrieved the gun that I had thrown under the car seat. They realised that this was the gun that belonged to the traffic officer, and they asked us whose gun this was. Nobody owned up to the gun and that's when they started assaulting the taxi driver who referred them to the passengers and said, "You should ask the people at the back", and there's another guy who was assaulted and he was innocent, but he was just sitting in front of me, that is the seat in front of mine. The person was assaulted until such time that he told the police and he pointed me out as the person who had put the gun underneath the chair and that was true, I'm the one who put that gun underneath the seat. They also told the police that there were the three of us.

They identified us and the three of us were taken and put into a blue Jetta. It was a police car. We were taken to a certain police station. I'm not able to distinguish between the Moroka Police Station and the Jabulani Police Station, but we were taken to one of those police stations. There we were further assaulted and told to tell the police as to where we got this firearm. We ended up confessing and explaining to the police that the gun had been sent to us or we had been sent by Moss to go and get the gun from a certain traffic officer, and the police wanted to know as to what position Moss was in or what was he to send us to go and get a gun. We explained to the police that he was a member of APLA and they required us to do a pointing out.

We proceeded to Pimville. I knew that we could get Moss at a certain place and I pointed the place out. I further requested the police to take me out of the car because I did not want to be seen pointing out and I knew that something was going to happen when we got to Moss' place or Moss' hide-out. And the police were quite shocked by my statement and they never stopped in front of the hide-out, but they went the opposite direction and parked at a certain corner, and they told me that they were not going to release me, they opened up the boot of the car and put myself and Lulamile Khwankwa inside the boot. And the car was started and went slowly down the street and stopped at a certain house. I could hear them shutting the doors after them as they were getting out of the car, together with Doctor.

After a few minutes, though I'm not able to say how many minutes, I could hear gunfire which I could identify as coming from an AK47 and there were some bullets that hit the car as well as the boot of the car whilst we were inside, and I started praying inside the boot because I was scared to death. And I was scared that Moss would probably throw a handgrenade in the car. The gunshots went on and we could hear the police gunfire, because at that stage I was able to differentiate between an AK47 and the police guns. After some relative quiet I heard a big or loud explosion which I thought to be a grenade.

Thereafter I heard some AK gunfire from a distance and at that stage I thought or realised that he was probably running away and they were chasing him, that's why the gunfire was getting fainter and fainter. I realised thereafter that I had been shot on the leg and the police threw me out of the boot. There was a black policeman who is a Sotho speaker, who said, "Here's your person, he's dead now". And the police dragged me and when they dragged me I saw Doctor lying in front of the gate. At that stage I do not know whether he was dead or alive. They dragged me into the ambulance together with one black policeman. I was taken to the Baragwanath Hospital.

When I got to Baragwanath there were already policemen there. They were not more than 10. Some were lying on the stretcher, quite a number of them. The police with whom I arrived told the nursing sisters at Baragwanath that these are the people who are killing the police and the nurses asked me as to why we were killing police. I denied any knowledge of that allegation. I was treated by the nursing sister. I was treated with a certain spray or certain medication and given some tablets. I was dressed and transported to the Kliptown Police Station. I spent the night there. The following morning I was assaulted. I was kicked and I was bleeding at that stage. I tried to put on my left shoe. My foot was swollen. I could not wear any shoes and I was taken to the offices at the second floor. That's where I came across some women from the house or the hide-out where Moss was. As to why they were there I have no idea, but we were put in vacant rooms. Murder and Robbery police from Protea were also present. They asked me from my ...[end of tape]. That is when the severest of the assaults started. We were taken into a Husky police minibus, a blue one.

We were transported to the Protea Police Station where we were put into a certain hall. There were a lot of policemen there, as well as traffic officers. We were questioned and assaulted at the same time. They also used some wheel spanners to assault us. I ultimately had to admit that I shot the traffic officer. They wanted to know as to who took the gun. I told them that it was Doctor, but they did not believe me, they said I was talking "shit", and I was actually painting Doctor black because he could not speak for himself, he was dead. I ended up saying it was Lulamile who had taken the traffic cop's gun. A question from the police with regard to money came. They also questioned us about a wristwatch. I never answered any questions with regard to that because we never robbed the traffic officer.

Even if I knew something about it, I wouldn't have admitted it because I had been a criminal before and have been involved in criminal activity. We were taken, that is myself and Lulamile who had also confessed to having taken the gun, we were put into different cells. A few days thereafter I was taken. I was tubed, electrocuted so that I could submit a statement to the police. The first statement that I submitted was true, but in the middle of the statement they rejected whatever was said. They kept on saying that I was talking "shit", and I was going to speak the truth. That's when I started lying because I wanted to satisfy them as well as save my life, because we were being assaulted severely.

In that statement I also said I had shot a traffic officer because I had been promised some money and they asked me as to who promised me money. I told them that Moss had promised us a sum of R1 800 for killing the traffic officer. When I told that lie I could see that the police were not satisfied that I was a hired assassin. I was taken to the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad where they told me that I was going to submit a statement to the Chief Magistrate. He was a white person and I don't know whether he was an Englishman or an Afrikaans-speaking person. This person reprimanded me that I was to speak the truth and only the truth.

I started off with the truth and when I got to the middle of the statement with regard to the payment, I tried to avoid the payment portion and this Chief Magistrate said, "You are now starting to speak 'shit', and I'm still going to call the people who assaulted you before to come and deal with you", and that dawned on me that he had already been told about me. I continued with the lie of being paid or having been promised a sum of R1 800. And I continued to submit a lie of a statement. Thereafter I was transported to Protea where I was put in a cell.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Mvijane. Mr Chairman, that's the evidence of the applicant. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Thank you. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, thank you. Mr Mvijane, in actual fact at which standard did you leave school?

MR MVIJANE: Standard six.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that in court, in the criminal court, for the murder of the deceased person in this matter you said that you left standard two?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that is correct, I did say that, because whatever I was saying in court was not true. I was telling lies in court. And I was even denying the crime or the offence itself.

MR MAPOMA: I understand that, but why did you - what was the reason for you to lie and say you left at standard two and not standard six? For that particular lying, what was the reason? What was the reason?

MR MVIJANE: All in all I was denying the statement that I had made to the Chief Magistrate, because what was said to me or the question that was posed to me was whether I could read. In order to be able to avoid the statement or the Chief Magistrate's statement, I said I had got out of school at standard two level. I was avoiding the statement or being accused of having been able to read the statement that I submitted before.

MR MAPOMA: Now, you have told the Committee that before you were recruited by Moss you were an ordinary member of the PAC. Do you remember that?

MR MVIJANE: No, I never said that. I never said I was a member of the PAC. I was a supporter, but not a card carrying member.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, thank you. I'm sorry, I made a mistake there. And as a supporter of the PAC you were a gangster, is that correct?

MR MVIJANE: When I grew up I was a delinquent or a problematic child. That I cannot deny.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying you were both a gangster, yet a supporter of the PAC?

MR MVIJANE: That is not correct. I was a member of the gangster. I wished to support the PAC, but at that time I was mainly concentrating on criminal activities. I didn't know much about the PAC at that stage.

MR MAPOMA: What did you mean when you said you were not interested in politics when you met Moss whereas you were a PAC supporter?

MR MVIJANE: I did not say I was not interested in politics, but what I explained to Moss was that I was not involved in any political group at that stage, but I had a desire to be a member of the PAC. That is what I said.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you shot the deceased, were you instructed by any PAC member to do that?

MR MVIJANE: As I had already explained before, that was my duty. I had already been told to identify the enemies who were oppressing the Africans and killing them. So, I was a soldier and I was carrying out my duty. When we saw this traffic officer we discussed it amongst ourselves with Doctor, that here is the target, now all that is left with us is to carry the duty. We got the traffic officer and explained to the traffic officer or told him not to move. We wanted his gun. But what made me shoot him was that his hand was rushing to his pocket and I realised that the was going to shoot first.

MR MAPOMA: Were you a member of APLA?

MR MVIJANE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When did you join APLA?

MR MVIJANE: During 1991, even though I'm not sure as to the date or the month.

MR MAPOMA: Who was your commander in APLA?

MR MVIJANE: The one I was receiving instructions from was Moss. He was a cadre, but I'm not sure as to his surname and his other names.

MR MAPOMA: And you say Moss is the commander from whom you take all the orders?

MR MVIJANE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: But you were not instructed by Moss to kill the deceased, is that so?

MR MVIJANE: I've already explained it, that I had been given instructions before that we should identify enemies. That was my primary duty as a soldier of the PAC or APLA, that I should identify these people. These were soldiers, traffic officers, as well as police who were working with the previous system. That's why when I saw this traffic officer I identified him as a target. I attacked him. I explained that before.

MR MAPOMA: No, what I want to understand, let me make this clear to you. I understand that APLA had a policy to attack certain targets, but what I want to find out from you, were you instructed by Moss specifically to kill the deceased? Remember you said that you were carrying - all orders which you were carrying you received from Moss as an APLA trained cadre and you were not instructed by Moss to go and kill the deceased. What is your explanation to that?

MR MVIJANE: I will repeat myself, I've said it before that anyone who works under or supported the previous Government, that is the police, the traffic officers, the soldiers were enemies to the PAC. So when I identified a traffic officer I decided that we should attack him and retrieve his gun.

MR MAPOMA: Naturally the deceased was not the first policeman for you to see, isn't it so?

MR MAPOMA: At that time he was the first person that we met who supported the previous regime.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, what I'm saying is that after you received your orders from Moss the deceased was not the first policeman for you to see. You had seen other policemen, you have not killed them. If you are saying what you did was a carrying out of a general order from Moss, why did you kill this one? He was not the first person for you to see, he was not the first policeman for you to see.

MR MVIJANE: I'll explain in this manner. Anyone who was working under the previous Government, when I was accompanying Doctor this very person that we are referring to or the deceased is the first person that I saw that we identified as the target, that is the traffic officer.

MR MAPOMA: Prior to the killing of the deceased, did you ever stop your acts of gangsterism?

MR MVIJANE: I was no longer involved in any criminal activities. I shed the friends that I had who were members of the gangster when I joined the PAC and we led totally separate lives thereafter.

MR MAPOMA: Which year did you stop gangsterism? When exactly did you stop the acts?

MR MVIJANE: The very same year, that is 1991 when Moss spoke to me about stopping my gangster activities, because he said to me I should try by all means to stop the criminal acts because they were leading me astray, the other gang members.

MR MAPOMA: And do you confirm that at the time when you killed the deceased you were standing charged for rape?

MR MVIJANE: No, the charges that I spoke about before, that is the two rape counts, were all in the past. They had nothing to do with that particular time frame and period in which Moss and I were involved.

MR MAPOMA: Who actually shot the deceased?

MR MVIJANE: I did.

MR MAPOMA: Would you turn to page two of the bundle there. In the paragraph that appears as the first paragraph there, that is paragraph (iv), you say there:

You go on to say, and I quote:

And then you carry on. Why do you tell this Committee today that you shot the deceased whereas you told this Committee in your application form that Doctor shot the deceased? Which one is the truth?

MR MVIJANE: I did. All that is written in here I think there's a mistake from the person who was filling in my application. I explained to him that I shot and Doctor retrieved or took the gun.

MR MAPOMA: Who completed this application form?

MR MVIJANE: David.

MR MAPOMA: David who?

MR MVIJANE: I've forgotten David's surname, but we were in the same prison with him at Leeukop.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Lulamile when you shot the deceased?

MR MVIJANE: Lulamile Khwankwa was not present.

MR MAPOMA: Was Lulamile present in the planning of the killing of the deceased?

MR MVIJANE: He wasn't.

MR MAPOMA: Where is Moss now?

MR MVIJANE: I've got no idea because even on that day I did the pointing out. We never got him.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Any questions? Questions, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson. Mr Mvijane, what jobs do traffic officers do in your understanding of things?

MR MVIJANE: According to the explanation that was given to me was that the traffic cops were members of the Government that oppressed us or they supported the Government in its oppression of the black nation.

MR LAX: I see. So would you have killed anyone who supported the Government or who worked for the Government?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that is what I had been told, that that person is a potential target and an enemy of the African nation or African people.

MR LAX: So pension clerks and social workers and nurses, all of them who worked for the Government were potential enemies, as far as you were concerned?

MR MVIJANE: It was explained to me as to who were enemies, as I had explained it before, that it was soldiers, policemen as well as traffic officers and other trained people who were trained and even given arms to attack the African people. I never mentioned clerks.

MR LAX: Well, how do traffic cops uphold apartheid? How did they in the carrying out of their duties of regulating traffic, of catching people for speeding, how does that uphold apartheid?

MR MVIJANE: As I'd already explained, my commander Moss told me that the traffic cop had been given a gun, the soldier had been given a gun and they had been instructed that they had the right to use those guns in any manner that they pleased, and he explained it to me that all the guns that they possessed were not used to kill white but to kill black people.

MR LAX: You see, I'm asking you to use your own intelligence. As a human being you have your own mind. I'm asking you to use it. I'm asking you how the duties of a traffic officer uphold apartheid? How the duties of a traffic officer oppress anybody? It's a simple question really.

MR MVIJANE: When I was growing up in the location I would see traffic officers and ask myself why were they armed if they were only dealing with cars and the streets, and that was never clear to me as to why they had to be armed until Moss enlightened me as to why they were given the guns, because they were enemies and they were given those guns in order to kill black people.

MR LAX: Isn't it really a bit more obvious to you that traffic officers have to arrest people for offences in connection with traffic, and if those people want to avoid it they may shoot at them or they may be required to be arrested and that's why they would need a gun? Isn't that an equally valid explanation?

MR MVIJANE: I wouldn't say it's particularly true or false because I've never worked under the previous Government or under the Traffic Department or soldiers. I know absolutely nothing of the workings of the traffic cops, the police as well as the soldiers. I would be telling a lie if I say I knew or know something about the specific duties of the traffic cops.

MR LAX: You see, what I'm asking you and the reason I'm asking this is I can understand that policemen and soldiers would be pillars of apartheid. It's in the nature of their work to deal with that kind of thing. But traffic officers deal with traffic matters, they don't deal with enforcing the laws of apartheid. No single other APLA person that's ever appeared before me has said that a traffic cop was a valid target.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I perhaps for - just a minute, just a minute. Just for the sake of fairness. Mr Lax had put to you a position or a view which I think he's made clear is a personal view and he's referring to a personal experience on this Committee, but perhaps just for the sake of objectivity, it's not the first time where a matter has been heard by this Committee relating to disarming or killing traffic officers. So bear that in mind as well when you respond to the question.

MR LAX: Fair enough, Chairperson, I accept that. Let me rephrase the question in a different way. The way I put it to you initially was to say, as I said earlier, that I can understand that the work of policemen and soldiers entails supporting apartheid. What I don't understand is how the work of a traffic officer entails supporting apartheid. And are you simply relying on what Moss told you or are you willing to think about what I put to you in the context of how I put it to you?

MR MVIJANE: I would not say I personally know about the duties or primary duties of a traffic officer. All I know is the instructions that I had been given that a traffic officer, a policeman as well a soldiers are supporters of the previous - or were supporters of the previous regime.

MR LAX: Now, at the point you were heading when you saw the traffic officer on that day, you had actually been ordered to go home, is that not correct?

MR MVIJANE: I could say during that night we were on a patrolling mission to look for our targets, but after not having been able to identify any we decided to go home. But that did not preclude me from carrying out the instruction thereafter, after I had met a potential target whom I regarded as an enemy of the African people. So when I saw this traffic officer I saw an enemy.

MR LAX: You see, in your affidavit you don't say that you decided to go home, you say you were ordered to go home. That means the operation was over and you were ordered to go home, correct?

MR MVIJANE: No, that's not correct, as I had already explained that it was a general instruction and I did not take the fact that I should go home as an instruction that I could not do any other thing besides go home, because I had to take the ammunition. There was absolutely no need for me to go back to Moss and say, "Moss, I had seen a traffic issue out a new instruction as to whether I should kill or take the gun from the traffic officer". There was a general instruction that was out.

MR LAX: Now, at the time that you saw this traffic officer, did you decide that you should do something about him and then discuss it with Doctor and then proceed?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that is correct. When we saw this traffic officer we discussed it amongst ourselves and identified him as a target, and we decided that we were going to disarm him.

MR LAX: And according to your evidence, Lulamile took no part in this whatsoever, the shooting of this man and the removing of his firearm?

MR MVIJANE: That is correct.

MR LAX: When you shot him where did you shoot him?

MR MVIJANE: I wouldn't be able to say because when I got to him he had his back towards me and as I was speaking to him he half turned to face me, that's when I shot him.

MR LAX: How far were you from him when you spoke to him?

MR MVIJANE: I could say three to four feet. I wasn't very far from him.

MR LAX: Why didn't you just grab him and put your gun into his back and say, "Give me your gun", finished?

MR MVIJANE: A person like a traffic officer is a trained individual and during that time I was a bit young, I could not have been able to do what you are asking me. He was well trained and he was of big build, that's why I asked him not to move. I wouldn't have been able to manhandle him or do anything of that sort.

MR LAX: There were two of you though and one of him.

MR MVIJANE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So why didn't you both grab him rather than kill him?

MR MVIJANE: Even if we could try to do that, that person was a mature person and that place was alongside the road and there was a flow of traffic. We wanted to speed up things.

MR LAX: So did you shoot him because to try and grab him and keep him quiet and stop him from doing anything would have taken too long?

MR MVIJANE: No, the reason why I shot him, because I had already explained to him that he should not move so that Doctor could come closer to him and take the gun out from him. But he reached out for his gun, that is the reason why I shot him. There was nothing else I could have done.

MR LAX: Where was his gun?

MR MVIJANE: It was on the left-hand side inside a holster.

MR LAX: Had he taken it out of its holster?

MR MVIJANE: What made him to shoot me was that I saw his hand reaching for his gun and I shot him.

MR LAX: Do you remember how many times you shot him?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Please tell us.

MR MVIJANE: Once.

MR LAX: In court you mentioned that your brother was present during this incident.

MR MVIJANE: No, I never said that. I don't remember having said that.

MR LAX: You said your brother introduced you to Moss.

MR MVIJANE: Yes, I did say that, but that was not true.

MR LAX: And then you spoke about your brother coming on this mission. Was that also not true?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that wasn't true.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo? Yes, Ms Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: You mentioned that you were, in your affidavit - in fact let me just ask you this way. What kind of training did you get as an APLA member?

MR MVIJANE: I was trained by my commander in the use of weapons, the cleaning thereof, how to handle bombs and how to use them.

ADV SIGODI: And where did this training take place?

MR MVIJANE: Where I was staying together with Moss, my commander. We were staying at an outside room or backyard room.

ADV SIGODI: So this training took place in that backyard room, is that what you're telling us?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that's where it took place, in the room where we were staying.

ADV SIGODI: No, I thought he said "qha". I don't know if ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: No, I said didn't it take place anywhere else besides the room. So he said, "No, it took place only in the room"

ADV SIGODI: Oh. And was it only Moss who was training you or were there other people who were training you?

MR MVIJANE: It was Moss only.

ADV SIGODI: And was it only Moss who told you who were the enemies of the PAC?

MR MVIJANE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Did you attend any meetings with the PAC?

MR MVIJANE: No, we never did.

ADV SIGODI: Were you educated about the strategy of APLA and how it's going to operate?

MR MVIJANE: No, I wasn't. A number of things hadn't yet been told to me besides the ones that I've already explained.

ADV SIGODI: And at the time that you killed this traffic officer how long had you been staying with Moss?

MR MVIJANE: It could have been a month or more, but it was quite some time.

ADV SIGODI: In other words, you only stayed with him a month and at the time you knew what the general order was and what was expected of you?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, as I had already explained, that I cannot pin myself down as to the length of time that we had stayed with my commander before the execution of this order.

ADV SIGODI: And your commander didn't have his own place, he actually asked for accommodation from you?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that is correct. That is what he relayed to me, that he had a problem with regard to accommodation and I sympathised with him and pointed out to him that I would talk to the owners of the yard so that we could stay together in that yard.

ADV SIGODI: Did he tell you where he came from?

MR MVIJANE: He never explained as to where he was coming from within South Africa, but he had told me that he was from the African States.

ADV SIGODI: Did he say which African State he came from?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, he did.

ADV SIGODI: Which one?

MR MVIJANE: He said he was from Tanzania.

ADV SIGODI: Did he say where he came from before he came to stay with you?

MR MVIJANE: No, he never explained to me.

ADV SIGODI: And you had never seen him before?

MR MVIJANE: No.

ADV SIGODI: So after shooting the - okay, I just want to understand this. When you say you went home because you could not find the target, you say that, "Moss ordered us to go to our respective places". Where did Moss go?

MR MVIJANE: As I was staying with Moss at my place, he went to where we were staying, that is the two of us.

ADV SIGODI: So after you finished shooting the traffic cop and you went home where was Moss?

MR MVIJANE: He was in the room and I told him what we had done.

ADV SIGODI: And what did he do? What did he say to you after that?

MR MVIJANE: He asked me as to whether there was anyone who identified us. I told him that I did not take notice of that as to whether there was any eyewitness or any person who had seen what had happened.

ADV SIGODI: All right. Where was the gun which you took from the traffic officer at that time?

MR MVIJANE: As we were running from the scene of the crime, the gun was with Doctor. When we got to the room Doctor handed the gun to the commander.

ADV SIGODI: And after he handed the gun to the commander what did the commander do with the gun?

MR MVIJANE: Immediately thereafter Lulamile Khwankwa arrived and he told us that we should not keep the gun there because he had seen a young boy who was talking to the police and he suspected that within a few minutes the police would be coming. We collected all the arms that we had and put them inside a sports bag and we left the place.

ADV SIGODI: Who left the place?

MR MVIJANE: It was myself, Lulamile Khwankwa, Doctor, as well as the commander Moss, Mbuzeni Zulu.

ADV SIGODI: Why didn't Mbuzeni Zulu go with you?

MR MVIJANE: Mbuzeni Zulu was going to give us a place of abode or some hide-out so that we could evade the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me check that. Mr Mapoma, I assume that this person that's being referred to, his name only arose now in the course of this testimony.

MR MAPOMA: Pardon, Chair, I didn't hear?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Mr Zulu.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I didn't get you well now. What is the position?

CHAIRPERSON: He's not somebody whose name had arisen at an earlier stage and who had been given notice?

MR MAPOMA: No, sir, he has not been notified. In fact he just crops up in this testimony, his name.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. We can deal with that.

ADV SIGODI: Of what interest was this to Mbuzeni Zulu? Was he also an APLA member?

MR MVIJANE: No, he wasn't. He wasn't a member of the PAC or APLA, but he offered to give us a place or a hide-out where we could stay in order to evade arrest.

ADV SIGODI: So he became aware of what you had done? He was aware that you had shot somebody?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, I could say that. I could say that he knew what we had done, because when we arrived, that is myself and Doctor, he saw us and he saw us rushing into the room. He even asked us as to what was wrong and he wanted to know. I explained to him that things were bad and police could come in any time.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Did Mr Zulu just offer to assist you?

MR MVIJANE: Mbuzeni Zulu stayed in the same yard as us. He was not my brother, but I think he sort of sympathised with me because I regarded him as my elder brother or my older brother.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he do anything else apart from saying that he could help you to find a place, a hide-out?

MR MVIJANE: No, there is nothing else that he did.

CHAIRPERSON: So he has never done anything to assist you in evading arrest or anything like that? It was just a discussion that you were having?

MR MVIJANE: No, he never helped us in any other manner besides finding a place for us to stay.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but I just want to ascertain what he actually did, Mr Zulu. Did he just say he will - well let me put it this way. Did he actually help you to find a place to stay or did he just made that offer to you and said, "I could help you to find a place to stay"?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, when we went out, we went out with Mbuzeni Zulu. He accompanied us.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did he actually do? Did he help you find a place to hide away or what did he do?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that is correct, he did help us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is it, as you say in paragraph 11 of your affidavit, in that first paragraph you say he promised to provide you with accommodation and then you went to Klipspruit. I suppose to the house of his relative?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he introduce you to that relative of his?

MR MVIJANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he ask the relative to give you any assistance or what did he actually do?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, Mbuzeni went into the house and spoke to the owner of the house. They came outside, that is himself and the owner. I also approached the owner of the house who invited us inside his house.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't hear what Mr Zulu said to the owner of that house?

MR MVIJANE: No, I did not hear the exact words that they exchanged.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. Now, just one other thing. After you had reported to Moss that you had disarmed and shot this traffic officer, did Moss reprimand you at all?

MR MVIJANE: No, he did not reprimand us. He accepted that and he regarded that as a mission accomplished.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Some of the points have been raised by Advocate Sigodi I wanted to raise. It's just that on a few aspect. Mr Mvijane, is it correct that you were still a recruit, you were newly recruited at the time of this incident?

MR MVIJANE: Yes, that is correct. I was still a newly recruited soldier.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct if I say that you were not yet well versed with PAC and APLA policies in detail?

MR MVIJANE: That is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And Moss has just given you basics?

MR MVIJANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Is that all that you want to present in respect of the first applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Yes, Mr Chairman, that's all in respect. I will wait the second applicant, then the person I'm going to call. I'm calling after the last witness to cover both in respect of this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: And so for the moment that concludes the testimony of the first applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case we will adjourn.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me. Excuse me, Chairperson. I'm sorry, sir. I just have one point to converse here.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly. Go ahead, Mr Mapoma.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Mr Mvijane, there is a view that what you did was not an act associated with political objective, but was an act in carrying out of your acts of gangsterism. What is your response to this suggestion?

MR MVIJANE: I know absolutely nothing. Anyone can say anything he likes, but what I have put before this Committee is the truth.

MR MAPOMA: Now, with the benefit of hindsight, how do you feel about the act that you did, bearing in mind that there are family members who lost their loved ones as a result of your action? What is your feeling?

MR MVIJANE: What I can say to the members of the family is that whatever happened was not meant to carry out a certain vendetta against the family or against the deceased himself, but all that I did, I did in furtherance of the struggle for freedom. I had no personal malice, I had no vendetta. I did not know him. I had not seen him before. I was seeing him for the very first time when I killed him. So it was nothing personal.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Any further aspect? Yes, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: It's been suggested to you by Mr Mbandazayo that you were a new recruit and had you been on other operations before this one?

MR MVIJANE: No, I had not been involved in any other operations. That was my first operation.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any further questions in the light of the questions that were posed to the applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll adjourn until 2 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My next applicant, Mr Chairman, is George Lulamile Khwankwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him sworn in?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman. If he can be sworn in.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Khwankwa, will you please stand.

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA (sworn states)

MR LAX: Sworn in, Chairperson. You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax. Mr Mbandazayo?

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Khwankwa, do you confirm that the affidavit of Nkosinathi Mpumelelo Mvijane has been read to you?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, as far as I am implicated, I do confirm it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Now, can you then, Mr Khwankwa, tell the Committee what were your activities before you met Moss?

MR KHWANKWA: Before I met Moss I was a delinquent. I was involved in car stealing and other criminal activities.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, you have told the Committee that you confirm what is contained in the affidavit of Nkosinathi Mvijane. Now, Nkosinathi Mvijane, in his affidavit, tells the Committee and also under oath that you were not involved in this incident and your application for amnesty indicates that you were involved in this incident. Can you tell the Committee what is the truth about this whole matter? What actually happened?

MR KHWANKWA: With regards to my application, indeed I was not present when the incident occurred, but I was arrested and sentenced for twenty five (25) years in prison for something that I did not commit. I made this application because I have been sentenced and I am aware of who committed the crime and I believe that it was a politically motivated crime which is why I eventually made the application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you tell the Committee what Mr Mvijane told the Committee, that he instructed you to go to the place of the incident. Can you tell the Committee what did you see when you arrived there?

MR KHWANKWA: As Mpumelelo asked me to go and survey the place, I did go and I found other people standing around the deceased. There was a small boy that I met, a person called Mphekeni who stayed near Mpumelelo's place and he was telling the police that he actually saw the people who committed the crime. I went back to Mpumelelo and told him that there was an eyewitness and he knows them and that the police would indeed be arriving shortly or at any time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How far were you when this young boy was telling the police that he knew the people who committed the offence?

MR KHWANKWA: I was not very far. I could estimate maybe from here to the guy in the white shirt.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That, Mr Chairman, would be about two metres?

CHAIRPERSON: Which guy is it?

MR LAX: That guy over there.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MR LAX: Three metres.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, that would be about three metres.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can you tell the Committee whether this young boy - did this young boy saw you?

MR KHWANKWA: I am certain that he did see me because I was very close. I am sure that he did see me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also true that he told the court that you were not there when he testified in court? That you were not there when this offence was committed?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, he did testify that he did see the people who had committed the crime and he identified Mpumelelo and could not or did not see the other one, but he did mention that I was not there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman, at this stage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Mr Khwankwa, were you a member of the PAC?

MR KHWANKWA: I was a newly recruited member in the PAC.

MR MAPOMA: When did you join the PAC?

MR KHWANKWA: In 1991.

MR MAPOMA: How did you join the PAC?

MR KHWANKWA: Somebody called Moss came to me and he recruited us to join the PAC and he also encouraged us to stop criminal activities and he also advised us on the ...(indistinct) way in which our country was being governed by white people and he convinced me to instead fight for the liberation of our country is that of engaging in criminal activities and I agreed with him.

MR MAPOMA: In the PAC is there any position that you occupied?

MR KHWANKWA: No, I did not hold any position because, as I've mentioned, I was a new recruit and I had not received proper military training.

MR MAPOMA: Were you a card carrying member of the ANC - of PAC? Sorry, of PAC.

MR KHWANKWA: As I have just mentioned, Moss convinced us to join and he said everything that we did he will report to the offices so we will just continue to carry out our activities.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, just answer my question. My question is, were you a card carrying member of the PAC?

MR KHWANKWA: No, I had not received a card.

MR MAPOMA: You will agree with me that the members of the PAC, I mean after the PAC was unbanned, it was joined by getting the card, the joining card, the membership card of the PAC. How did you join the PAC without getting a membership card?

MR KHWANKWA: As I have mentioned, Moss had not taught us everything about the PAC and I did not have proper information that I should obtain a membership card, but what we learnt was from Moss about membership in the PAC.

MR MAPOMA: Were you the member of APLA?

MR KHWANKWA: I can say that I was, although I did not have a card, but Moss had already recruited me and I had agreed to become a member of his unit in the township, and we would work together until such time that we obtained full membership.

MR MAPOMA: I see in your application form for amnesty, in paragraph 8(b) you say you were a member of APLA Secret Service. What is that?

MR KHWANKWA: This application was written by somebody else, and I explained to him that I was not a card carrying member of the APLA because of time constraints and we served as a secret force because we were not yet card carrying members of APLA.

MR MAPOMA: What was the secret force? What is that? Is there something like that in the PAC, secret force?

MR KHWANKWA: I can say that it is part of the PAC because I regard myself as a member of the secret force, because there were a lot of other members who did not know me and I had not as yet attended any meeting.

MR MAPOMA: What activities were you engaged in as this secret force?

MR KHWANKWA: Our duty was to disarm Government members who had lawful weapons.

MR MAPOMA: Now, in the murder of the deceased, Simon Khungwane, you say you were not involved?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I was not involved.

MR MAPOMA: Is there any role that you played as a person?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: What is it?

MR KHWANKWA: The role that I played was to go and survey the place as I was asked to gather information if there had been no eyewitness or if nobody had witnessed the incident or if anybody knew about it.

MR MAPOMA: Now, after your survey did you suggest that - did you play any role in encouraging the culprits to flee?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I informed them that somebody had indeed seen them doing this act.

MR MAPOMA: Now that you were not involved in the actual murder of Mr Khungwane, why do you apply for amnesty?

MR KHWANKWA: I am seeking amnesty because I was arrested, prosecuted and sentenced for a confession that I - for a crime that I did not commit and I was sentenced thirty five (35) years for this crime and I know that it was Mpumelelo and Doctor who had shot the person and disarmed him, and my only role was to go and check out the place thereafter. I have sought amnesty for this and I am only seeking amnesty because I am in prison sentenced and serving time for something I did not do.

MR MAPOMA: Were you in the same unit as Mr Mvijane?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Do you associate yourself with the act that was committed by Mr Mvijane and another?

MR KHWANKWA: I would not say whether I do or I do not because I did not shoot the person, I did not take that gun, I did not participate in the crime, I only went to survey the place and I thereafter informed him that there was an eyewitness.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Questions?

ADV SIGODI: After you were arrested did you see Moss again?

MR KHWANKWA: No, I did not see him again.

ADV SIGODI: He never came to see you in prison?

MR KHWANKWA: No, he did not come.

ADV SIGODI: Did any PAC people come to see you in prison?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, some of them did.

ADV SIGODI: And who came to see you?

MR KHWANKWA: Some I do not remember their names, I do not know their names well.

ADV SIGODI: How do you know that they were PAC?

MR KHWANKWA: Because they would come to see us as a group of PAC inmates.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions?

MR LAX: Just one, Chairperson. I'm still not sure or not clear in my own mind on this issue of whey in your application you say you participated in this thing when in fact you didn't. If you say you didn't participate in this thing and you're applying because you knew about it, why didn't you say that in your application? Instead you say that you did participate in this thing. Please explain that to me, because I'm really not clear on this explanation.

MR KHWANKWA: As far as the application is concerned, I have applied for everything that I've been sentenced for. What is contained in the application is in there and I'm seeking amnesty for it because I did not fully participate in the actual incident, but I have been sentenced for it.

MR LAX: Well, you see, you say here that Moss asked you to go and disarm this traffic cop of his service pistol. Moss did no such thing. You say that here. Those are your very words here in Clause 4 of the application form, right at the very top, see?

Etcetera.

MR KHWANKWA: I explained that I made the application because of the sentence that I'm serving and because of the confession that I made before the trial.

MR LAX: But in the trial it was never disclosed that you were on a mission.

MR KHWANKWA: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Was the trial run on the basis that you were an APLA unit carrying out a command of Moss?

MR KHWANKWA: At court we denied our involvement in the crime and we did not mention anything about APLA.

MR LAX: Exactly. So nowhere in the court case did Moss' instruction to you come up. Why then do you say Moss ordered you to take this gun from this traffic cop when Moss didn't do any such thing?

MR KHWANKWA: I don't think we understand each other. I explained that the application is because of that confession that I made to the police which wrongfully got me sentenced about this crime.

MR LAX: Are you saying that in your confession you said that Moss ordered you to go and take that firearm from the traffic cop?

MR KHWANKWA: With regards to the confession, I was told what Mpumelelo had already said and that I should actually compliment what he said so that I would not be tortured further and that he had said that we had been ordered to go do this crime, and therefore I made the confession accordingly.

MR LAX: You see, the confession doesn't say anything about Moss ordering you to do this. I've read it before. It's here on page 62 of the bundle, the relevant portion of it. Page 62. Now, if you read it or someone reads it to you, you will see very clearly there's no mention of instructions of APLA, of anything of that kind. There's just the three of you involved in this thing, according to this confession.

MR KHWANKWA: I do not know, but as I have already explained, I was told what to write in the confession and that is how I came to apply for amnesty.

MR LAX: Yes, I know, but you've just told us what you remembered about being told to write here and it's not the same. Now, when you apply for amnesty you understand that you were telling us the truth. Did you not understand that?

MR KHWANKWA: I do know that, but with regards to the application I actually explained everything to the person who wrote the application for me and he did indeed write. He wrote as I was telling him. So I do not know if he wrote what I was indeed telling him. I think I made three or four statements, therefore I do not know which one is indeed before us today.

MR LAX: When you say you made three or four statements, are you referring to the trial or are you referring to your amnesty application?

MR KHWANKWA: The statement that I have in the application form is the statement that ...[end of tape]

MR LAX: I'm talking to you about your application for amnesty now, and I'm talking in particular about paragraph 4 which is on the second page of that application at the top, which you've read already, correct?

MR KHWANKWA: I was told what to say. I don't think I understand you fully now, maybe I'm losing you.

MR LAX: Okay. I think you are losing me. I'm referring to your amnesty application form which is different to the statement that I've referred you to previously. It's a handwritten form. Is that the one in front of you now?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes.

MR LAX: When you had this form filled out on your behalf, you understood that you were supposed to be telling us the story you would rely on to apply for amnesty, is that right?

MR KHWANKWA: When I made the application what I knew was that I should mention what was actually said at the trial and how the trial progressed. That is what I wrote in the application form.

MR LAX: So the question that you answered was, "Furnish particulars of the acts or omissions associated with the political objective in respect of which amnesty is sought, including dates, places, names and any other persons involved". That's what you were asked to fill in there, and then you filled in the offences. Can you see, under acts, omissions and offences? Sorry, it's on page one, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR KHWANKWA: ...[no English translation]

MR LAX: Okay. Then you filled out the date, and you filled out the place. Do you see that?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes.

MR LAX: And then you were asked, "Nature and particulars".

MR KHWANKWA: I can see it.

MR LAX: Now there you say you filled out what you were convicted for?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just see if we don't misunderstand one another here. There is a section in the application form that ask you about what happened at the trial, what happened to you where you've got to say where you appeared and what happened to you, you were convicted and you were sentenced and so on. Are you aware of that, that there is a section in the form that deals with that? Towards the end of the form there is something that talks about what happened at the court case.

MR KHWANKWA: I can see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Now, this form, just tell us, did you get the form personally from the prison officials or where did the form come from that the person filled in for you?

MR KHWANKWA: I fetched the form from the offices of the Correctional Services authorities.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what did you do with it?

MR KHWANKWA: I asked for an isiZulu version and I could not get it, so I took the English version. I went back to my cell and I asked one inmate and told him that I was making this application and I requested him to write it for me.

CHAIRPERSON: So, you had to get assistance to be able to have the English version of this form completed for you because you couldn't a Zulu version of it?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I had to ask for assistance from this other person.

CHAIRPERSON: So, did you give the form to this person?

MR KHWANKWA: We sat down and I gave him the form.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And did you know that he would be able to assist you?

MR KHWANKWA: I asked him if he understood English and if he could assist me in writing and he said yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Then he was sitting with the form. Was he asking you specific questions which would appear from the form or how did you go about doing this thing, or did you tell him one long story or what?

MR KHWANKWA: Sometimes I would give him details about addresses and names and with regards to statements regarding the trial I told him the entire story and asked him to write it down.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you speaking Zulu, the two of you?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I would tell him in isiZulu and he would actually translate it into English.

CHAIRPERSON: And whatever he ask you he also ask you in Zulu?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, he would ask me in isiZulu.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, thank you. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: When you then began to fill out the nature and the particulars of the offence as a follow on from the earlier questions, you with me on that?

MR KHWANKWA: Please repeat.

MR LAX: Okay. Just to help you. I was asking you before the Chairperson asked you some questions about this form and how you were filling it out and I was taking you through the questions, can you see that? And we went through all the different questions and you wrote down dates, places, what the offences were etcetera. And so where it says, "Nature and particulars", that refers to the offences, you understood that. Do you understand that now and did you understand it then?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I do understand.

MR LAX: And did you understand it at the time you were filling out the form?

MR KHWANKWA: I understood that particulars of what happened on the 20th and I told the person who was writing about what I said to the police who were taking the statement, who made me confess.

MR LAX: So you put things here that are not the truth?

MR KHWANKWA: ...[no English translation]

MR LAX: Yes.

MR KHWANKWA: It was the truth as far as the police who were taking the statement are concerned.

MR LAX: But you knew that not to be - sorry, carry on.

MR KHWANKWA: The way I understood this section was as regards to the details of the case or of the trial, and that the truth would eventually actually come out when I came here.

MR LAX: But you knew that what was being written here was not the truth, correct?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I did know that it is not the truth because I did not commit the crime.

MR LAX: Now, when you signed this form on the 2nd of December 1996, you signed it as if it was the truth.

MR KHWANKWA: I did not take an oath about the contents of the form and I wrote this form with regards to what actually happened and as to how I was informed, and after completing it I actually signed it and it was sent to the TRC.

MR LAX: Well, from the form itself it appears as if you signed and swore to it. Signed by a Commissioner of Oaths. It has a stamp on it from the prison commander and the date. Did you not sign it before the prison commander?

MR KHWANKWA: I signed it before a prison official, but I don't know if it was a commander.

MR LAX: Well, did you not take the oath as it is mentioned here in the document as you were required to have done?

MR KHWANKWA: They asked me if I knew the contents of the form and I said yes, and then they told me to sign it and I did so.

MR LAX: So you yourself took no part in this shooting or the removal of the firearm?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I did not take part in any of that.

MR LAX: And all you did was go and check to see what was happening at the scene?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And then warn your comrades?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes.

MR LAX: You see, you go on to talk about your political objective and your justification in paragraph 10(b). Now how could you be justifying politically a lie?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, without interfering with the question of the honourable member, I don't think they managed to get each regarding the reason for him filling the nature and particulars. I think he made it clear that the way he understood the nature and particulars was that he must say exactly what he told the police in his confession. So, what he filled there he understood in that way and it is in that sense that it was a lie, because what he told the police was a lie, and he understood the question what is wanted in the form as what he'd also told the police, because it's what also transpired in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. No, no, no, Mr Mbandazayo, that much is very clear. I mean if we're presented with an English form, English application form under the circumstances which the applicant was trying to explain to us here, we were speaking Zulu to some other person who was completing the form, speaking for myself, I'm afraid one has to judge the value of that form in the light of those particular circumstances. Now, I know he was trying to explain this whole thing about the information that apparently appears in English on the English form and there was a lot of to and fro about this, and about whether there were lies and where the lies were and so on.

And I tend to agree with you that there is certainly no clear indication that what the applicant was saying was that in here he was lying intentionally to the Commission. It was certainly linked to what was said to the police. In fact at one stage I made a note here, he says that, "I wrote the form as to what actually happened and what the police informed me". And I saw there is obviously no clarity, certainly in my mind, on the issue or the point that the applicant had intended when he completed this form to lie to the Commission.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: With respect, Chairperson, the part you've just referred to was in relation to his statement to the police and he canvassed that at that stage. But leave it as it may, I don't wish to nitpick here. I'm just trying to be clear. So, you see, you then go on to answer the questions about whether anyone was killed or suffered damage to property as a result of this offence. That's question (b) towards the middle of page 2. And it's a continuation of the offences. Then you talk about people who were wounded and killed and you say one was your friend and a house was damaged by bullets. Did that form part of the offences for which you were convicted, houses being damaged by bullets?

MR KHWANKWA: No, I was not sentenced for that.

MR LAX: Well, then why is it here if that's what you understood you were filling in this form at this point?

MR KHWANKWA: As I've mentioned before, I asked somebody to fill in the form for me. He asked for details about what happened and I told him the entire story and he filled in the form from what I had told him.

MR LAX: So you don't know why that's there?

MR KHWANKWA: As I mentioned before, he was asking me about what happened at the trial and I told him what happened, that a friend of mine died when we went to identify a person and after the death of the traffic cop. I think that is why maybe he wrote it.

MR LAX: When we go over the next page, you talk about your orders. Did you think you were talking about what you had told the court again?

MR KHWANKWA: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: I say over the page you start talking about your orders. What approval you had from which liberation movement etcetera, and who gave those orders. And then you filled that out. Did you think you were talking about what happened at court? Were you wanting to tell the truth at that point, what really happened?

MR KHWANKWA: This is some of what happened or rather what was contained in the confession.

MR LAX: Well, nowhere in your confession does it say you did this on behalf of the PAC.

MR KHWANKWA: But the police who were taking the statement encouraged me to say so.

MR LAX: Well, it's not here in the statement we can see.

MR KHWANKWA: As I've mentioned before, I made a number of statements and I don't know which went where.

MR LAX: Ja. Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khwankwa, what standard did you complete at school?

MR KHWANKWA: I passed standard six.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you say that part of your instruction or duty was to disarm Government members in possession of weapons?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, that was one of our duties.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mvijane had told us in his testimony and in his affidavit that the night before the shooting happened you were patrolling the streets looking for targets to attack, is that correct?

MR KHWANKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, from what you understood, would it have been part of your duty, as you understood it, to disarm a traffic cop who had a firearm?

MR KHWANKWA: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The way you understood your duties, to disarm the Government members who had weapons, would you have been expected to disarm a traffic cop who had a weapon?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, it would have been expected.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you heard that subsequent to the actual incident that your fellow members of this unit had attacked and disarmed a traffic cop, is that correct?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you agree with that action?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, I did because they did what they were expected to do.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you subsequently joined them and you went to survey the scene and so forth, did you do that to help your fellow members in the unit?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, it was my intention to assist them to evade arrest.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you in fact leave with them to go to the house where the weapon was stored?

MR KHWANKWA: I actually met them on the way. I went to survey the place, I returned and I told them what had happened and then we left together to go to Klipspruit.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were with them all the time after that?

MR KHWANKWA: Yes, after the incident, after I had informed them that there was an eyewitness, we left together.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I think Mr Chairman has almost covered some of the aspects. I won't do any re-examination. That's all for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. So that is the testimony that you wanted to present in respect of the second applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman. I want to proceed, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you then call the next witness?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'm calling Jabulani Khumalo, the member of NEC of PAC, Secretary for Sports and Culture. Mr Chairman, just as a sort of introduction in the suspect. His testimony will be based on the incident, regarding the incident and also regarding the commander and what he knows about the incident itself. It will not be necessary on a personal basis of the applicant, knowing them personally during the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it relates to the incident and to the commander in question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Moss?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Do you want him sworn in?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, if he can be sworn in, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO (AKA) ACE (sworn states)

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax. Mr Mbandazayo?

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Khumalo, just for the record, can you tell the Committee what is your position in the PAC?

MR KHUMALO: I'm the member of the National Executive of the PAC and I'm not just an ordinary member of the NEC, but I am in the Cabinet of the PAC in the sport and culture and recreation as the secretary.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible] heard what has been said by the two applicants regarding the incident of the 20th of August 1991. Can you tell the Committee whether you have knowledge of this incident, and if you have knowledge of the incident, how did you know about this incident?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I can truly do so. At the time of 1991, during the time the incident happened, I was the chairman of the PAC in Katlehong. I receive a call at work, I'm sure it was the 22nd or the 21st of August, that there is something that happened operationally in Soweto, I had to come to the rescue because one of the APLA members have been injured. So it is very much important that I jump in for the assistance before the police could track him down, because the police were all over Soweto in looking for him. Can I continue leading the evidence?

MR LAX: Can you just move that mike back a tiny bit. That's fine, thank you.

MR KHUMALO: So, I left work after receiving that message from one of the Soweto leaders politically, by the name of Comrade Nzi Mhlowayi who was the National Executive of the Youth League of the PAC. I drive to Soweto in the place where he directed me with another comrade which I went to collect.

Arriving at the place they took me to another house where a member of APLA by the name of Moss and known code name by Moerapapa in the APLA circle. Then I could not ask many question as the matter is being of sensitive. My role there was to pick up the comrade and take him to the safety place. I took it to my own place. It was very painful. I never saw a person in this colour. He had no blood, he was look greyish, pale, I believe he lost a lot of blood because of the operation during the night of raid. He was injured right here. He had a big hole here. I took him to my place.

In my place I organised a member of the PAC then who was a matron at a Natalspruit clinic, and through her we got hold of the doctor. We also got another comrade and ask him to look after him for the full time of recovery because he could not stand up, he could not even go and wake up from bed. He was to be assisted all the time. So I had a comrade who assisted on that one. Fortunately he's around here in this room as well, who was a full time aide. We didn't ask Moss in the first two days of what happened because according to doctor instruction we were to let him relax.

After two or three days we asked him of what actually happened, because we were to account to the leadership of APLA if being asked. That's how I came to know about this case actually. With Moss' word, he said he had just recruited the lumpins. The lumpins in revolutionary terms are criminals, the people known as "tsotsis". He said, "I have recruited the lumpins into units of the Azanian People's Liberation Army and I've gave them instructions that they should go to disarm in order that they arm their unit. Because of their lumpinism, that's how I got injured, because if they were clear on the code of conduct, they wouldn't have went along with the stolen gun as an exhibit and attract the trace of clue of what happened. So because of them being not knowing they leaded the police to where he was and then there was a shootout in that place".

So, I am here just to confirm that this particular case is the case that has the PAC link and PAC blessing because of the cadre of the PAC who was sent through infiltration to home here and find some units, build units and carry on the operations as APLA demand. Although we were politically leaders, we were to assist only the forces on the time like this, logistics and things like that. We were not involved in their practicalities, but we were just to assist on the top where they like us to assist. So that's where we got involved.

So, as of Moss, I believe that the comrades, they only know that he died on that operation on that confrontation, but Moss survived because he was shifted from that area to East Rand and we managed to let him heal to an extent whereby we had to take him outside Azania to Zimbabwe where he was fully treated at the military hospital of Zimbabwe, because the hole needed a fully attention of hospitals where they should run the stitch and things like that. So, we could not send him to hospital because of the attitude. So, after he recovered a little bit we sent him outside to Zimbabwe through APLA means of escaping.

So, I'm just here to confirm that this case, because of Moss' involvement and Moss gave a short information about it, it was an APLA operation and Moss unfortunately he died in 1994 in Pietersburg operation of APLA. I will not know exactly the time, but I do know that he was buried the time when Sabelo Pama landed here in Jan Smuts Airport for burial in that weekend. The very same day Moss was buried in Alexander - in Pietersburg, I'm sorry, where his home was. I don't know if there's anything.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. That's the evidence I wanted to lead. It's up to the Committee to ask any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just one, Chairperson. Mr Khumalo, after this incident occurred did the PAC claim responsibility for it?

MR KHUMALO: APLA did claim the responsibilities. It was the military wing that had to do with the claimings of operations. It did claim responsibility through its commander.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir, no questions.

ADV SIGODI: Just one question. Mr Khwankwa mentions that he was a member of the Secret Service. Just for you to throw light so that we can understand, do you know anything about Secret Service?

MR KHUMALO: I think he was talking of the units. APLA had units not Secret Services. I'm sure somehow he left as he was a new recruitee, but I'm sure he meant the unit.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Would the unit normally under these circumstances have operated in circumstances of confidence of what you can call secrecy?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, a unit operates underground, not above board. So it is secret in a sense that I personally myself I would not know the members of that unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Just one question, Mr Khumalo. Did you actually report this matter, after you'd spoken to Moss, to APLA higher-ups?

MR KHUMALO: Apparently Moss did that himself after he has recovered. We had no links with the military formations.

MR LAX: Okay. I just thought from your evidence you'd indicated that you wanted to know what happened in case you had to account for it. So I thought maybe you had actually been the person who had then reported it on.

MR KHUMALO: Yes, it is true, because although above board we did know the high commanders, even those who were outside Azania at the time. So they could come and pose up the question. So we were making the safety of it.

MR LAX: Ja, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, any questions further?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the case for the applicant, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

MR KHUMALO: Can I be excused here?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're excused, Mr Khumalo. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Chair, I would like at this stage to request for a short adjournment so that I can consult with the members of the family.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. We'll take a short adjournment. You will notify us when you are ready to reconvene. We're adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, for the victims, I would like to call a witness by the name of Johanna Khungwane.

CHAIRPERSON: That's in order. Can she come forward. Do you want her sworn in, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Miss Khungwane, would you please rise.

JOHANNA KHUNGWANE (sworn states)

MR LAX: Thank you, you may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?

EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Miss Khungwane, is it correct that you are a sister to ...(inaudible). That is correct.

MS KHUNGWANE: That's true, I'm a sister to the deceased.

MR MAPOMA: And does the deceased have parents?

MS KHUNGWANE: Yes, he does.

MR MAPOMA: Would you tell the Committee the names of the parents?

MS KHUNGWANE: My mother's name is Lettie and then my father's name is Elias.

MR MAPOMA: And they are still alive, is it so?

MS KHUNGWANE: Yes, they do.

MR MAPOMA: Was the deceased married?

MS KHUNGWANE: Yes, he was.

MR MAPOMA: What is the name of the widow?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MS KHUNGWANE: Beauty Thembi Ngubane, that is the surname of the maiden.

MR MAPOMA: Did he have any child?

MS KHUNGWANE: Yes, he did.

MR MAPOMA: What's the name of the child?

MS KHUNGWANE: Sipho.

MR MAPOMA: You have listened to the applicants applying for amnesty for the murder of the late Simon. What is your attitude of that application?

MS KHUNGWANE: Well, what I would say is that, what I heard them saying I don't agree with them because within our family we have lost a breadwinner. I think you did saw my father, he was here yesterday. Since the death of my brother my father was struck by the stroke and then he was paralysed, because my brother, he was a person who did help him with everything.

Whenever he was sick he did take him to the doctors and then at this juncture my mother is sick too. And then when we tried to comfort her because of the death of our brother, those people who have killed my brother on behalf of the family, we do not accept the application for amnesty. They were hurt by the death of my brother.

Even when I told them that those people have asked for amnesty they were shocked, because that act was not politically motivated and because my brother was not a politician. He was interested with his children. When he was shot he was busy helping small kids to cross a road. So I don't know why did they do such a terrible thing.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Yes, Miss Khangwane, we understand that the death of your brother caused a terrible harm to the members of your family and for that we sympathise fully. But now let us go to the amnesty application which is being made by these two gentlemen. I just want to briefly explain to you that for this honourable Committee to grant them amnesty, they must show this Committee that their act was an act associated with a political objective, and number two, they must make full disclosure to this Committee. Do you understand that?

MS KHUNGWANE: Yes, I understand.

MR MAPOMA: Now, what I want you to tell the Committee regarding those grounds for which amnesty is sought, I want you to tell the Committee what is your view as the family.

MS KHUNGWANE: Because they say they were members of APLA, what I want to know from APLA what is their motto? Is their motto that they should recruit and kill at the same time? That's what I want to know from APLA members. If you are a soldier you must go for training. Thereafter you must be taught. Even members of the South African Defence Force members would, before he become a soldier, you must be taught how to handle a gun and the ammunitions and the mines and the grenades. They did this thing and they're hiding themselves behind APLA. They should not tell us that they would succeed because they're hiding behind APLA. What I want to know from APLA members is that what is their motto, what is the motto of APLA, because you cannot recruit at the same time and the same time you send people to kill.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Now, is it your evidence that you do not accept that the applicants were trained cadres of APLA?

MS KHUNGWANE: I don't believe that they were trained APLA members. I don't even believe that they were APLA members. They were criminals, because they have bad criminal records, especially Mvijane. Before he went to gaol, before he shot my brother, he was on trial to point an old man and old woman with a screwdriver. I read his evidence in court. What happened even before he was given a judgment, I read all those things. Even the standard which he said he has passed is a low standard. Even a standard two child, he wouldn't do what he did. What I read from his records and the judgment, he's hiding behind APLA. He must not come and say APLA has recruited him.

When I look carefully, my brother was working for the Traffic Department. Even members of APLA wanted to jump the border. Before he jumped he would meet a traffic cop then he would ask him for help to cross the road. Then that traffic cop would help him to cross the road, unlike for a person to come and shoot at traffic officers, because he is looking after the safety of people to cross the road. Traffic officers don't participate in politics. He didn't associate himself with politics. At the time he was shot, at that time there was PAC and ANC and they were busy negotiating in CODESA. They did not say they were sent by Moss. They invented that version by themselves. I don't blame PAC, what I blame is Mvijane and Lulamile.

I don't know as to whether Lulamile was there or not, because he doesn't come up straight to explain his position, instead to give us a straightforward position, maybe he's afraid of Mvijane. My elder brother used to communicate with Mvijane's place where they meet. Mvijane was not able to communicate well with Mvijane. They fought. He sought people to come and kill Mvijane in prison. Then they requested that Lulamile must go to Bloemfontein. I don't know how to classify Mvijane, under which group of people.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. When I had a consultation with you, this is exactly what you expressed that you want to address to the applicants.

MS KHUNGWANE: What I wanted to know is that what is the motto of APLA? If they can tell me what is the APLA's motto that when they recruit a person they cannot send him to do an operation or to shoot a person. That person must undergo military training. He must know his commander, his identify and then he must know the leadership structures of that particular organisation. That's what I want to know from APLA, as to whether is it a practice that they would recruit the person now and send him to do some operations?

MR MAPOMA: Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Miss Johanna Khungwane.

MS KHUNGWANE: Thank you very much.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Miss Khungwane. Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I have no questions except that I want to say to Miss Khungwane that they must accept my condolences for the death of their brother and the pain which they went through for the whole process. Also that I understand the anger of the family. We understand that you are angry for the death of your brother and everybody, also myself, it's not easy to lose a loved one, especially somebody who's a breadwinner. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson. Miss Khungwane, it may help you just to understand, I sat through the submission that APLA made to the Truth Commission, and I heard it, and in that submission APLA did concede that in some cases some of their recruits were not as well trained or as well disciplined as they may have been, and they acknowledged that. And they indicated that some things happened that they may not have wished to happen, but that's what happens when people are engaged in an armed struggle. So just to let you know that APLA did make that statement before the Commission. So that you can understand, they did admit that there were some mistakes that they made as well.

CHAIRPERSON: No questions. Mr Mapoma, have you got any further questions?

MR MAPOMA: No, no further questions, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Khungwane, thank you very much for your testimony and for having participated in the proceedings. We have noted all of the points that you have made and we sincerely hope that at least having been present at this session, at the hearing, that you at least have heard firsthand what case it is that the applicants have presented to us. I think Mr Mapoma has explained to you what the legal requirements are, and of course our duty as a panel is to test the case that was placed before us against those requirements, and that is really, you know, the duty that we have. But thank you very much for having come and having at least participated and shared your views with us. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are there any other witnesses?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson. I would like to call Leonard Khungwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him sworn in?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I would like him to be sworn in.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Khungwane, will you please stand. If you can just switch on your microphone please. Sorry, it's going to go off. If you can just put it on again. Right.

LEONARD KHUNGWANE (sworn states)

MR LAX: You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, will you try to get those two microphones working together again?

EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Khungwane, is it correct that you are the brother of the deceased Simon Khungwane?

MR KHUNGWANE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And that you were present at these proceedings and listened to the applicants applying for amnesty for the killing of your brother, is that correct?

MR KHUNGWANE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And that having listened to the application being made by the applicants, you would like to say something, is that correct?

MR KHUNGWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Khungwane, if you can try not to drop your pen on the table.

MR KHUNGWANE: Okay.

MR LAX: The microphone picks up the noise and it's creating a bit of a problem for the interpreter.

MR KHUNGWANE: All right. Okay. First, what I would like to say, at the PAC I've got a friend in the lady, she works at there. I once ask her if do they know their cadres. Then she said to me, "We know them". Then I said to her, "Just go and find out if you know about this Mvijane", because I had his first application amnesty at home. Then unfortunately I didn't follow the procedure because of the problems which I'm having at the farm. Secondly, what I would like to say, I would say to the Committee and the members of PAC.

Firstly, Mvijane has not shown any remorse or any regrets. He's proud, and I would say to you people of PAC, don't mould youngsters to be criminal if it's not like that - if it's like that, don't mould youngsters to be criminals. Mould youngsters to be the people of the next generation, because the minute you mould these youngster to become criminals it's where you're spoiling the country. Whatever is happening now recently in Congo is going to happen here in South Africa. I'm telling you people. You can say whatever you like, it's coming here. It's coming here.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, just a minute. Just a minute, just a minute, just a minute. Can I please ask, one understands that when we have to deal with this kind of matter that there are different views expressed. Some that one agrees with, some that one disagrees with. But we have to do our work. We have to hear all of the information that can assist us in coming to a fair decision on a matter that we have to decide upon. So, please can I ask you to ensure at least that we are able to take note of everything that is said here and even if you disagree with a point that is made, the person is entitled to make the point. That is part of our democracy that we have now at present.

So can I please just ask everybody just to restrain yourselves so that we can hear what the witness says. Give him an opportunity. We've given everybody else opportunities to put their case. So, Mr Khungwane, please just carry on where you stopped.

MR KHUNGWANE: I said to Mvijane, he doesn't show any remorse or regrets and I said to the PAC members, mould youngsters to be the future of the next coming generation. Let them build the country. Let them not destroy the country. Secondly, when I come to Lulamile. Lulamile, today you have disappointed me very much because I had faith on you because I believe your family once told us about you, and it's a pity you went to gaol for the thing which you were not there. You were not even present. The only thing you were only sentenced in gaol because of being in a bad company. And I believe you have destroyed your future up to now. And all I can say to you, I'm very disappointed because you never told the truth. I don't know if you are afraid of Mvijane or whatever, because ever I've known Mvijane and what I would like to tell you, the place where you shot my brother it's where he attended school, because he used to attend school at Muzi High, and any person, even his friends who stays next to the place where you shot him, they were surprised because he attended school there and he had lots of friends in Pimville.

So, to you, on behalf of my family and I'm standing here because my father was supposed to sit here or my mother was supposed to sit here, on behalf of my family, we are not prepared to give you, I know because of the Act which Mr Mandela produced, but on behalf of my family we are not prepared to give both of you any amnesty. Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. That is it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Mbandazayo, any questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, I assume that you don't have anything else that you want to add?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. There's no further evidence now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khungwane, thank you very much for having come and for having presented your views to us. We have taken note of that and we hope all the best for you and your family. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, I suppose that ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just, Mr Chairman, it's just a request, Mr Chairman. I happen to have a note, but I don't want it to be something of counter accusation. The honourable gentleman, Mr Khumalo, wanted just to say something to the family of the deceased on behalf of the PAC. But I'm in the hands of the Committee. He wanted just to talk to the family please.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. One assumes it is something that is constructive.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, it's something that is constructive, Mr Chairman. It's not something to down, he just want to say something to the family on behalf of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I have consulted with my colleagues on the panel here. Of course, in the normal course of events that would not really form part of a process of this nature, but we are aware that there are bigger and more important objectives and that the process of which the Amnesty Committee is part of is trying to achieve in the country, and it might very well be that there is no other similarly suitable situation where an exchange can occur. And under those circumstances I would grant your request and get Mr Khumalo to perhaps say a word or two to the family.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Khumalo, can you come to the mike.

MR KHUMALO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, and the Committee, to give this opportunity to the PAC in order to make a comment in fact on what has transpired in this hearing. I must say that I was taken by the comment and the statement made by Mr Lax on the APLA presentation, that regard the question of the mistake that were conducted during the time of the armed struggle.

The PAC, when it conducted its arm struggle through APLA, we never had opportunity to make a lot of workshops and things like that. We have made a great mistake. I think it is on record that the PAC on the Amy Biehl case, they even went to an extent to visit the family and make reconciliation. It's even far from the Africans themselves. We went above that because we realised that at the end of the day we had to reconcile as a nation. So, we feel very bitterly of what is happening during the time of the struggle which was not our option.

We didn't choose as the PAC to engage on armed struggle, but we were forced to take up arms. So, to members of the families that suffered the casualties during the time of war as the PAC, we are not proud of that. We really don't enjoy any proud of it, of the casualties and the victims. Although we suffered as well as the PAC the same equal question of casualties within the PAC itself, but we are not happy of the armed struggle that has been taken on in this country. We said if the politicians at the time could come to understand of talking and negotiate, the political settlement as it lastly happened we would have avoided all these unnecessary casualties.

So, to the family of the present here, I am conveying this message on behalf of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania that we didn't meant to, but it happened because it was at the time the only option and unfortunately the PAC never had time, APLA didn't have time to train people. We didn't have camps in that matter, as my sister have put it forth. The PAC was conducting the guerilla warfare. We had to use a smaller portion that we can get in order to train these forces. But we really apologise to the pains that we have caused to the whole nation, because the PAC, on its formation was a peaceful organisation. So, for that we are taking no exception, but we are also making sure that we can reconcile with the African people and we can reconcile to whoever that has suffered the pain because of the struggle that was forcefully to the Africans. So, members of the family, I know that we cannot take your member back, your family, your brother, your uncle back to life, but he's one of those that will be counted in the history of the struggle, that there was that sacrifice. He was sacrificed for the benefit of the new dispensation. I just wanted to say that we are truly sorry on what happened. It was not on our intention, but we were forced to take up that action. So for that we appeal to the family that let it happen. It passed, it's gone and passed. We know that we cannot return him back, but we can still reconcile and together, as the statement put by the brother there, that we need to build this nation for future, we can together build it without any grudges. Let it happen. It happens, let us shake hands, let us move forward and build one nation, a happy nation of Azania. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Khumalo. Gentlemen, I assume that what remains for us is to hear argument on this matter and I trust that you are able to present that? Mr Mbandazayo, what is your position?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman. I think so. I'm in a position to present it, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we will appreciate it.

MR MBANDAZAYO ADDRESSES: Mr Chairman, the two applicants are applying for amnesty in respect of the death of Mr Khungwane. Mr Chairman, there is no dispute that on the 20th Mr Khungwane was shot dead by Mr Mvijane. Now, the point has to be decided by the Committee as to whether what was done by Mr Mvijane was associated with political objective or was it politically motivated.

Mr Chairman, I submit that Mr Mvijane has taken the Committee to his confidence. He told the Committee of his past, that he was indeed a criminal and he was not a very good child from the beginning. He did not listen to his parents and as a result he has been convicted twice for very serious offences before he met this Moss, this APLA cadre. And, Mr Chairman, he does not hide it that he was still new and he did not know a lot, but he was just told elementary things which of course is clear from him that he did not even understand them fully, but he was told who the enemy is. And as a result of that he acted on the 20th and it resulted to the death of Mr Khungwane. And they took the firearm and they left with the firearm, and they gave it to Moss.

And finally, Mr Chairman, it ended up to the tragic incident where even Doctor, who was with him, ended up dying when they went to the house where Moss was with the police which, Mr Chairman, Mr Khumalo has come and testified that indeed Moss did exist and in fact he was known as Moerapapa within the PAC circles and within APLA. Mr Chairman, taking that and linking the whole incident up to the incident where Mr Moss was cornered, it becomes, Mr Chairman, very clear that though Mr Mvijane, the applicant, was a criminal, but in this instance, but in this instance, he acted with another motive other than the motive of a criminal. If one would accept the evidence and also what has been said by the family of the deceased, that the deceased was always in that spot helping children to cross the street, if he was such a criminal that there was nothing more than that he should have killed him long time ago, because it's clear that this person is known according to the family, and that he's always helping there and he was studying around there. So, he was known that he's a traffic cop. If that's the case, I submit, Mr Chairman, that if he had that criminal mind, motive, he should have killed him long time ago. And to his favour, as he told the Committee that he was a criminal, but it was the first time, this is remarkable, the first time that he killed somebody. It was for the first time, and first time that he realised that he had also a gun with him. That in itself, Mr Chairman, I submit that it shows that on the day in question he acted with a different motive, which was a political motive.

Mr Chairman, he does not hide that he is the person who killed the deceased and how he killed him, and I submit that in that respect and what happened thereafter in that respect he has made full and proper disclosure regarding the incident.

Mr Chairman, I would like to tie it with Mr Khwankwa. Mr Mvijane testified before this Committee that he was not there. He said it many a times, and also himself, he testified and to extent if one listened to the family, the brother, it's clear that he knows that he was not there, but unfortunately he was in a bad company. And also, Mr Chairman, if you look at the record, the witness, the young boy who knew Mvijane said also in court that he was not there. Though of course the outcome of the case were different. The Judge take into account that he's a young boy and took into account what was said by Mr Zulu, that they came to his house and said that they did that. But, Mr Chairman, if you take it in conjunction with what the brother of the deceased has told this Committee, that he was not there and also what was said in Court by the eyewitness who was there, and also what has been said by him that, "I went there". Definitely if he was there, the young boy would have said, "Here is the other person who committed this offence".

And as such, I want this Committee to accept it, his version, that he understood the filling the application for amnesty that he has to say that what has transpired in court, that he was involved, not that what he put in the application form was to mislead the Committee about what happened. And he has also put it clear that he associated himself with what had happened, because they have been told by Moss that those people are the targets. Though he was not there, he associated himself and he assisted them in evading the arrest, because had he not gone there to check who was there, who noticed them, they would have been caught napping in that house with those arms, all of them. But unfortunately, because of his efforts, he told them that, "We have to move", and they moved.

And, Mr Chairman, on that basis, that it has been canvassed and Mr Khumalo, as he also came before this Committee and testified that indeed what Mr Mvijane and Mr Khwankwa are saying is true, because he was told by Moss that he recruited, as he put it, lumpins, that is criminals, and that they were involved in this mission, and because they did not understand, they were not well versed with everything within APLA, they led to police where he was. And I want the Committee to accept that if there is no contrary evidence to what has been led by the applicants, that indeed Moss was an APLA cadre and indeed he recruited them being criminals and he was still teaching them about the PAC and he recruited them to APLA units, which was the underground - it was an underground structure then. They were still operating as they have not yet suspended the armed struggle.

And taking that, Mr Chairman, in totality, the whole evidence which has been led here, I submit that the applicants have complied with the requirements of section 20 and subsection 1 and subsection 2, that on the day in question, on the 20th of August 1991, they were acting on behalf of APLA, a publicly known political organisation in the liberation movement which was engaged in the political struggle against the State at the time. And I submit, Mr Chairman, that also that the applicants did not act for personal gain or out of personal malice, ill-will or spite directed against the deceased. It is quite clear also, according to them, the evidence they led, that they have no personal knowledge of him and that when they saw him they merely acted because of the information and the instruction they have, that they have to repossess arms to be used by APLA. And on that basis, Mr Chairman, I request that the applicants be granted amnesty in terms of the Act. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, I will leave it to the hands of the Committee. I have nothing to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Gentlemen, that concludes the evidence and the argument. We would want to consider the matter and formulate a decision as soon as circumstances permit. This particular session is scheduled for the entire week. So, in terms of that arrangement, we've got some time tomorrow and if the circumstances do permit, we would like to at least endeavour to formulate a decision hopefully in the course of this particular session. So, we're hopeful of doing that. For that purpose I will for the moment let this matter stand down until tomorrow at 9 o'clock or as soon thereafter as we can deal with the matter, hopefully for the purpose of giving our decision. So this one will stand down. There is a further matter which the panel would like to deal with, and that is the matter of Mr Sibiya. We would like to recall that matter and to use the opportunity given Mr Khumalo's presence and his position to call him as a witness to deal with just one issue in that particular application which we feel could assist us in finalising that decision. So for those purposes I recall the Sibiya matter and I want to call Mr Khumalo to come to the witness stand please.

MR LAX: Must I swear him in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, please do that.

MR LAX: Mr Khumalo, please stand.

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO (sworn states)

MR LAX: Thank you. You may be seated. Sworn in, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax. Mr Khumalo, thank you for making yourself available to the panel. We have taken the liberty of calling you up to the witness stand to assist us, if you are in a position to do so, on a matter which we have heard in the course of the week. It's the amnesty application of Mr Sibiya.

There is one particular issue in that application which we would like to hear if you could comment on, which would be of assistance to the panel in finalising that particular matter. Now, during the course of that hearing which relates to the Bethal area, there was testimony about a conflict which involved members of the African National Congress and the Pan Africanist Congress in that particular area. Roughly in the period 1991 to '92, in that particular time period. So, it really relates to the period say roughly between 1990 and 1992. Now, given your position within the PAC, are you at all in a position to assist the panel in either confirming the existence of that conflict which is referred to or if you can comment on that in any way?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I am, sir. Chairman, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please do so, Mr Khumalo?

MR KHUMALO: Ja. Members of the Committee, this political struggle between the two organisation in that area started in 1990, not 1991. I remember at that time that not only in the Emzinoni in Bethal, but we had a problem of similarly political fighting space in Vosloorus, at Kwaguqua in Witbank, in Ermelo at Umlomo. As that time I was not a national leader of the PAC, but I was a leader in the region of the PAC in the East Rand. We were getting these reports that members of the PAC have been under attack and we needed to assist if there is any way that we can, especially at Bethal. I thought maybe the person in question here, when he talk about attending the meetings and the workshop he will go to an extent that there were people in those meetings that he will not know, they were not known to him. Because we were sending people all over these areas in order to assist wherever possible in the way of trying to bring the political settlement and negotiate with the opposition if it's possible. Where it was not possible, those people would come and say that that area it's more, there is no tolerance, there is no option that we can engage ourselves politically. In fact it's at high risk for any member of the PAC, like the area in KwaTema, there was a time when members of PAC could not wear even T-shirts.

So in areas like that, we were to recommend to those who were linked to the underground structure of the PAC to intervene. So at that area at Emzinoni I know it was affected by the political confrontation between the PAC and the ANC, and we did indeed receive a report that houses were burnt. Even the members, those who were killed during the time, burnt during the time of the shack being burnt as means of retaliation by the ANC or attack by the ANC, we did get the report that there is such incident in that area.

So what I can say is that not only at Bethal at the time, but throughout many areas that I counted, but especially in Bethal there was that political conflict between the PAC and the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, thank you. Any questions, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Mr Khumalo, how long did this tension, this conflict go on for? You said it started it about 1990. One would have expected that's when the political parties were unbanned, the political movements, the liberation movements were unbanned and that's when the above board vying for political space would have started.

MR KHUMALO: To some areas it didn't take too long. Some areas it's still existing today. In the area of Kwaguqua in Witbank the tension was closed during the time of 1992/93. At Bethal as well, I would say during that time of 1992/1993 early, this question of conflict were coming to ease, were coming to ease but to some other areas it still exist even today. I'm sure you are reading of what is happening in KwaTema and I'm fully involved in KwaTema, to try to make sure that there is a political settlement.

I was also involved in the Peace Accord between PASO and COSAS. It starts sometimes at school, not at PAC level and then it rises up to PAC. We are involved in trying to sort out these things, and with the new dispensation it does help now because there is an understanding with that. We had to move towards peace and reconciliation. It's only that the fear that it might arise now because of political campaign of election again, but between 1992 and 1993 there was a realisation of this confrontation.

MR LAX: Thank you very much, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, we have called Mr Khumalo as a witness. So you're, of course, entitled to an opportunity to pose any questions you wish. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. No, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo? Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Khumalo, do you still remember who were the ANC leaders in Bethal at that time?

MR KHUMALO: I can't really know the names of the leaders of other areas except maybe the members of the PAC. I know at that time the chairman of the PAC was Ben Mazibuko. And the secretary there, if I'm not mistaken, was Jafta Sibisi.

ADV SIGODI: Do you if this chairman - you say he was the chairman of the PAC, Ben Mazibuko?

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know if there were any negotiations between the PAC and the ANC, particularly in the Bethal area to try and resolve the conflict?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, there was an approach of political settlement in that area. I think that is the one that resulted in the relaxation of confrontation, because after the death of an ANC member there was this that the ANC also was seeking for political settlement on this issue, because it was viewed that APLA is now advancing in that area.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know who this ANC member was?

MR KHUMALO: I don't know the name of this person.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No questions, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, thank you very much for assisting.

MR KHUMALO: Appreciation, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, again in this matter we intend to follow a similar course of action to let this matter stand down further until tomorrow morning also at 9 o'clock or as soon after that as we can deal with the matter in order to give us an opportunity to consider whether we might be in a position to also deliver a decision in this particular matter. So, under those circumstances, I am adjourning the proceedings until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock or as soon thereafter as we can commence. We're adjourned.