TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody, I apologise for the late start today but apparently there were difficulties in getting one of the applicants here today, that was the reason for the delay. Before we start I'd just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Advocate Johnny Motata, he's an advocate from Johannesburg. On my left is Advocate Francis Bosman, she is from the Cape and I'm Selwyn Miller, a Judge from the Eastern Cape attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court there.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll just ask the legal representatives to please place themselves on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo and I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chair and Members of the Committee. J.M. Mpshe for the Commission, Amnesty in particular, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and this is the application of Messrs Mabala, Khotle and Mafanya. Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my first applicant will be Mosuiwa Khotle, Mosuiwa Isiah Khotle, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation of the truth?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Khotle, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee, do you confirm that the affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

MR KHOTLE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, we'll receive this affidavit then as Exhibit A.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I will start to read for the benefit of the Committee, the affidavit. The affidavit reads as:

Mr Chairperson, if I may correct it, it happened in July, just correct it in July, Mr Chairperson.

Signed by the applicant. Mr Chairperson, I'll only ask the applicant only one clarity, to give clarification and after that, that be his case.

Mr Khotle, in the application of the other applicants, they mention a person by the name Jan. Do you know any person by the name Jan and if you know him, how do you know him?

MR KHOTLE: In our unit we had a certain person called Jan, his name is Boysi. The commander called him Jan because he wanted him to be the commander then that Jan is Sipho who is Kuma.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying there were two Jans?

MR KHOTLE: That is correct, in the unit we had only one Jan. Welaleni Kuma, his other name was Jan. Within our unit Boysi called the commander Jan.

CHAIRPERSON: So is that Solly?

MR KHOTLE: That is Boysi.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see in the other application, Mr Khotle, the other applicants say that the commander was Jan, am I wrong? I think if you look at page 6, "Comrade Jan gave the order." If you look at page 6, paragraph 11(b) and then you take a look at page 11, again it says "Comrade Jan gave the order"

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson, that's the question he was trying to explain that there were two Jans, the one is the commander who gave the order, that is Sipho Bulalani Kuma.

CHAIRPERSON: But then who is Solly?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then Solly was the commander of the unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. Yes?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that's all I wanted from the applicant and that's his evidence up to this stage. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Khotle, if you have regard to page 16 of your application, that is the one you submitted to the Amnesty Committee and you have regard to paragraph 9(a)i, you speak of robbery, murder and shoot out with police at Heilbron. You see there?

MR KHOTLE: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: And at 9(a)ii, you were asked about dates and you give 18 February 1992, 22nd March 1993 and 1993? You see that? Now the impression I have is that you are applying at least for three incidents and listening to you I have heard of two in your affidavit?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for the benefit of the Committee, just before he answers Mr Chairperson, if I may chip in on that aspect? With regard to robbery Mr Chairperson, he has already, that's why he is out, he was granted amnesty on that one, he was done in Bloemfontein so that's why he is applying for the other two.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're just concerned with the murder, that is the Vanderbijlpark incident and the shoot out with the police, that is the Heilbron incident?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was dealt with the first one, robbery, at Bloemfontein hearing. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo because without that explanation I was at a loss. Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Khotle, if you have a look at paragraph 13 of your affidavit, it says there:

What was the objective of the shooting? What did you wish to gain by just shooting at a vehicle?

MR KHOTLE: Settlers were people who stole our land therefore we were supposed to shoot them.

ADV BOSMAN: Was the intention to kill them?

MR KHOTLE: The order was that we should kill settlers.

ADV BOSMAN: So if you had to clarify that sentence, it would be "the commander instructed us to shoot at the vehicle and kill the occupants"? Was that the order?

MR KHOTLE: Yes we were going to shoot, that is why there were people who were killed, we were going there to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Advocate Bosman is trying to say, the order was not to shoot at the vehicle, but to shoot at the people inside the vehicle?

MR KHOTLE: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And how did you define settlers, was that just any white person?

MR KHOTLE: A settler is any other person when he arrived at other people's land, he repossessed the land of those people.

ADV BOSMAN: But in terms of your definition in the South African context, was any white person a settler?

MR KHOTLE: Whites were settlers at that time.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV MOTATA: Just to follow up Mr Chairperson.

Mr Khotle, now just taking it from where my fellow Committee Member spoke of paragraph 13 of your affidavit. Was it a command that had to emanate from a commander or was this Pan Africanist Congress policy that settlers should be shot at or you had to get a command before you do it from your commander?

MR KHOTLE: Will you please repeat the question sir?

ADV MOTATA: I say - let me rephrase it in this manner - that was it your commander who had to choose the target or the settlers, as I understand you, was that PAC policy that every white person who found himself in this land was a settler?

MR KHOTLE: All whites were settlers at that time when we were engaged in the armed struggle.

ADV MOTATA: Ja now what I want to know, was that general policy of the Pan Africanist Congress?

MR KHOTLE: Which one sir?

ADV MOTATA: That the whites were settlers and they should be eliminated or you had to wait for a commander in your unit to say shoot those settlers in particular in that vehicle or where your reconnaissance took you to?

MR KHOTLE: As a soldier I was instructed to shoot any car which is occupied by settlers and the PAC's definition of settlers are those who oppressed the black masses.

ADV MOTATA: But before you could do so, you had to get the instructions from a commander of your unit?

MR KHOTLE: Yes, as a soldier I should wait for an instruction.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle on paragraph 13 of your affidavit you said you:

The information that I have on the papers is that only one other was injured, not others, so what do you mean by others, what did you learn after the operation?

MR KHOTLE: I learnt from the papers, I knew that only one person died then I learnt that others were injured, I did not verify as to whether how many were injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then according to the paper cuttings that we have there was only two people in the car. Do you see more than two people in the car that you shot at? How many people did you see in the car that you shot at?

MR KHOTLE: If I'm not mistaken there were three, if I remember well. I'm not quite sure, maybe there could have been two or three but what I know is that one person died.

CHAIRPERSON: And just for clarity here again, in your affidavit, paragraph 10, who is Solly, what is Solly's name?

MR KHOTLE: It's Zola Mabala.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? Zola Mabala.

MR KHOTLE: Zola Mabala. M-a-b-a-l-a.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and who is Boysi?

MR KHOTLE: I only know him by that name, I don't know his full names.

CHAIRPERSON: And then if you go to the Heilbron attack, the last page of your affidavit, who is Muleme?

MR KHOTLE: It's Washington Mafanya.

CHAIRPERSON: Your co-applicant?

MR KHOTLE: That is correct, he is present.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever arrested or tried in respect of these two incidents that you've related now?

MR KHOTLE: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: Before he does Mr Chairperson, may I again come in and refer to page 20? Before I do so, this operation was in the evening?

CHAIRPERSON: Which one are you talking about?

ADV MOTATA: The shooting of the settlers, the police.

Because I'll tell you why I'm asking that question and will ask for translation into English because I'll read it in Sotho as written.

What was the lighting like if you could see the people in the evening what they looked like? Let's start with the lighting where you were standing to ambush the vehicle which had to deliver police who had knocked off from work? How clear was it at that time? I want you to help me, sir.

MR KHOTLE: It was at night during that time.

ADV MOTATA: Is that correct? Maybe you have a problem that you are combining these two operations?

MR KHOTLE: The Boipatong operation happened in the morning when the commander ordered us to shoot any settler who passes there. The one I'm talking about happened at night. Those people were police.

ADV MOTATA: June 1993 attack at SAP at Heilbron, when did that one happen, what time of the day?

MR KHOTLE: It happened at night, sir.

ADV MOTATA: I have no problem then because when I read your affidavit, I'll repeat, "On Wednesday" I want you to read it with me. The seventh line from the top.

You see, now my question is, you were saying it was in the evening and you had to ambush a police van. Either it took another direction or you came after it had gone past. Would I be understanding this correctly?

MR KHOTLE: I requesting that you repeat your question, maybe I don't understand you clearly?

ADV MOTATA: So let's put it crisply, because it was in the evening, what was the visibility like where you were standing at the kerb?

MR KHOTLE: We did not have light.

ADV MOTATA: But you were able to identify a police car?

MR KHOTLE: If I remember well, it had the SAP registration, if I remember well.

ADV MOTATA: But you were able to identify that it was a police car? Could you see the occupants of that car?

MR KHOTLE: Even if they were black policemen we would attack them.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: None Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Khotle, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, my next - I'll try to call them in a sequence Mr Chairperson since two are involved in two incidents. I'll call Zola Prince Mabala, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, just before he is sworn in to testify Mr Chairperson, I want to put it on record that he is the person we have been waiting for the whole of this morning. Mr Chairperson, Mr Mabala, I've received information also myself I've consulted with him, is not well. He's - if I may put it this way, he is suffering from memory loss, we have a problem even in communicating with him and he was in prison hospital, he's been kept in prison hospital because he can't, whatever he is saying you can't make sense from it, but he's trying if you are patient with him. What I'm trying to, I'm calling him to confirm the affidavit. That's why I didn't start with him though he's a commander, we are supposed to start with him concerning the affidavit of Mr Khotle.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mabala, do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation of the truth?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabala, while you're testifying if you have any problems with your health just let Mr Mbandazayo know and he'll let us know and if necessary we can take an adjournment.

EXAMINATION BY MR MABANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mabala, you have heard the evidence of Mr Khotle. Do you confirm the evidence of Mr Khotle inasfar as it relates to yourself?

MR MABALA: Yes I do confirm it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you abide by that evidence by Mr Khotle?

MR MABALA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I'm not going to lead any further evidence, this witness is open to questions of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: No questions thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: I've got none Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me see if there's anything here? Mr Mabala were you ever arrested or charged in respect of either the Vanderbijlpark incident or the Heilbron incident, the two that are the subject of this hearing?

MR MABALA: Yes because I'm involved in a court case.

CHAIRPERSON: And that court case is still pending?

MR MABALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Has it been pended pending the outcome of this application?

MR MABALA: Yes I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: If you take a look at paragraph 10 of Mr Khotle's affidavit. You see Mr Khotle, the previous witness says that the unit which shot at the Vanderbijl ambush, which shot at the people inside a motor car was himself, Solly, that's Zola Mabala which is yourself, the commander and Boysi. Now the commander there is that Jan, do you confirm that it was Jan?

MR MABALA: I was the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who is Tabang?

MR MABALA: Tabang is the one who just testified.

CHAIRPERSON: And - I can't read this properly - Masidwa?

MR MABALA: He's the one who just testified.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Mabala, were you the commander of the unit that conducted these operations?

MR MABALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you in turn receive orders from anybody with regard to these operations?

MR MABALA: Yes I got them from Cuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I notice from your application form that you're applying for a variety of incidents beyond these two that we are dealing with today. Mr Mbandazayo, have those others been dealt with or will be dealt with in the future?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson, if I may clarify, all the others were, the operation in Cape Town, Heidelberg Tavern and Khayelitsha Police Station ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Have these been dealt with?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, already been granted amnesty in respect of all the others. It's the only two which is remaining in his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and Mr Mabala, on the conclusion of these incidents, the Vanderbijl incident and the Heilbron incident, did you report back to anybody?

MR MABALA: We went back to where we came from. I gave back a report to the person who gave me this order.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman.

ADV MPSHE: I have none Mr Chairman save on what the Chair has asked the applicant to confirm that he is awaiting trial on the two incidents. I was phoned this very Monday by the State Advocate, he actually appeared in court on Monday and I was told by the State Advocate that the case will be postponed to next year pending the decision of amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe. I'm sorry, just before I finish, because of the brevity of the evidence and his condition, with regard to the question of full disclosure, Mr Mbandazayo, do you confirm the contents of your application forms, Mr Mabala, namely that you were a member of the Pan Africanist Congress and also that you were a trained cadre in the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army at the time of these incidents?

MR MABALA: Yes I do confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you may stand down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the next applicant will be Mr Mafanya, Mr Chairperson and in relation to the Heilbron incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mafanya, do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation of the truth?

TSEKO WASHINGTON MAFANYA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just before I start Mr Chairperson, with regard to this applicant he will confirm the affidavit of Mr Khotle as well as his own affidavit which was at that time submitted to the State President for indemnity before the coming to operation of the said amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the one that is on page 31?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Page 31 to page 37, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

Mr Mafanya, do you confirm the affidavit of Mr Khotle inasfar as it relates to you and you abide by it's contents as far as it relates to yourself?

MR MAFANYA: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you also confirm that the affidavit at page 31 of the bundle, Mr Chairperson, to page 37 in relation to application for indemnity was made by yourself and also that you abide by these contents?

MR MAFANYA: I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead with regard to this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions?

ADV MPSHE: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: I've got none, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mafanya, if you take a look at page 31, is that a mistake down at the bottom? You say count 1 and count 2 and they happen a month apart from each other, was it not at the same time that those count 1 and count 2 took place?

I think 13th June is wrong, should it read 13th July?

MR MAFANYA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And I see from your application form that you were in fact arrested and charged in respect of this incident?

MR MAFANYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were convicted and you're currently serving an effective term of 15 years imprisonment?

MR MAFANYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you confirm, also just for the record here, that at the time of the incident you were a member of the Pan Africanist Congress and a trained member of APLA?

MR MAFANYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you injured in this incident?

MR MAFANYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the extent of your injuries?

MR MAFANYA: They shot me on the ...(indistinct) bone and it went through on the outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you hospitalised?

MR MAFANYA: Yes I was operated on.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you recovered now?

MR MAFANYA: Not fully but yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you may stand down. Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: None thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that's the applicants' evidence thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, that is the - I don't know whether to say evidence because I led no evidence, there is no evidence to lead Mr Chairman, but to call one of the victims in the Heilbron operation, Captain Snyman is available.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: He does not intend to testify but he says there is something he wants to put on record?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly. Is it Captain Snyman?

Captain Snyman, do you wish to take an oath or do you wish to make an affirmation of the truth?

CAPTAIN SNYMAN: I just want to read something.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't want to give evidence as such?

CAPTAIN SNYMAN: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You just want to make a statement, like a "verklaring"? Okay, you may continue.

CAPTAIN SNYMAN: I just wish to say on thing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you start Captain, can I have your full names please?

CAPTAIN SNYMAN: My name is Pieter Daniel Snyman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

CAPTAIN SNYMAN: I just wish to say that it was difficult to forget this incident and my family went through difficult times but all is well now. My christian belief says that I cannot judge anybody else because since we are forgiven I also have forgiven and I have to tell the applicants that they have to realise that there are other ways to solve these problems. I wish that they would change their lives and they would not act in a similar manner. That is all I wish to say, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Snyman. Is it correct that at the time of the incident you were the driver of - I mean you were a passenger in the vehicle that was driven?

CAPTAIN SNYMAN: That is correct, I was a passenger.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. No thank you, seeing that you haven't given evidence, there won't be any cross-examination but it's been noted what you've said and it's always appreciated by the Committee to hear from victims to receive statements from them. Thank you very much for coming, Captain Snyman, we appreciate what you've said.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, Captain Snyman was in the company of Captain Rossouw who also was injured in the shoot out, actually he was more injured than Captain Snyman, the eye and the brains he's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I noticed that from the paper that Captain Rossouw received serious injuries.

ADV MPSHE: Indeed yes and Captain Rossouw, I spoke to him last week and I spoke to him again this morning and his lawyer has faxed me a letter, I'll just put a copy in front of the Chair. If the Chair allows, I can read the contents of his affidavit onto the record?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've got this affidavit received as said by Mr Mpshe from one Michael Antonie Rossouw who was one of the victims in the Heilbron incident which will be received as Exhibit B and Mr Mpshe will just read the contents of this affidavit sent by Mr Rossouw to this Committee.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe. That then will be all the evidence received in this hearing. Mr Mbandazayo, do you wish to make submissions?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if I may, that was the Heilbron attack. In respect of Vanderbijlpark attack, the attack on the civilians, there were also victims in there. Mr Chairman, the driver of the vehicle, Mr de Bruin, I communicated with him last week in Cape Town on Tuesday and he promised that he would be here today and that he would contact the other family members, Mr Concer's family. This morning I called him at 09H10 and he said he's so sorry, he cannot make it, he's got too much work he cannot come. I can convey this to the Committee. And he asked me again to convey this to the Committee that Mr Concer's family, that is Mr Concer is the gentleman who was killed in the car, his family is scattered all over, the wife is in P.E., the daughter is in East London, the son is in Vanderbijlpark. He has tried all the means at his disposal to inform them, he has actually done so but they have not responded but they know that the matter is taking place today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, I'll get the details at the end of the submissions, with regard to victims, from you for purposes of notification to the Reparations Committee.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Just before, Mr Chairperson, I address the Committee which I'll be short, I'd like to say something with regard to what has been - statement by Captain Snyman and the other victim. I wish just to say to them that on behalf of the applicants, I've spoken to them, they've spoken to me that they wish to say that he must accept that they did not have anything personal against him, it's just because at the time they were involved in the liberation struggle and they were regarded then as targets and they accept the new dispensation and they're also accept him as part of the African society and also as South Africans together and also on my behalf, I say to him that what he has said today goes a long way to everybody who is here, to very process to which this Committee itself is involved, which is truth and reconciliation. It's fulfilling when you hear people like him to come and say what he has said and also his colleague who has just sent his statement or affidavit to this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, I agree fully with what you say. You know we sit in many, many applications and we only get it in a few where we get this sort of interrelation between people who are on the opposing side in the old days and it's very heartwarming as you say when there is this meeting of the mind now and this forgiveness shown and understanding that we are all now together and we must pull together as it were for the good of the whole community and the whole of society. Thank you very much and it's appreciated from both from what the victims have said and also what the applicants have responded in this regard. Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairperson, having said that I've no intention to detain this Committee for a long time with my long argument on this matter except to say that, Mr Chairperson, it's clear on the evidence that it's not in dispute, Mr Chairperson, that the three applicants were members of APLA and that at the time the political organisation to which they belonged was involved in the armed struggle and at the time they committed these incidents were in pursuance of that armed struggle.

Mr Chairperson, it's borne out by the fact that if you're take Mr Mabala, he is not even from this area, he comes from the Eastern Cape, especially East London in the township Mdantsane.

CHAIRPERSON: From your territory?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson and if you take that Mr Chairperson, it's clear that nobody can come all the way from Mdantsane to come and settle a personal vendetta, it's clear that what he did, he came here with specific orders and after he has carried out those orders, he went back, they went back to Umtata to report what had happened and as such Mr Chairperson, it is my submission that applicants have complied with all the requirements of Section 20 and sub-section 1 as well as sub-section 2, that they were clearly acting on behalf of APLA, a publicly known political organisation, liberation, in which it was engaged in a political struggle against the day, at the time and that when they acted, they did not act for any personal gain or out of malice or out of personal vendetta against the victims and it's therefore, Mr Chairperson, my submission that the applicants should be granted amnesty as applied. Mr Chairperson, but I would like to go to the question of the ambush at Vereeniging. The question was raised that civilians were attacked, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, if the Committee has the submission of PAC which wanted to clarify the question of victims - of civilians being targets and where they used, they extracted a speech from the speech of the founding president of PAC which forms as their basic document, that speech, as one of the basic document of the PAC which is always referred to, whatever they did. Where they use an analogy of a sjambok in that speech, they also in their submission use that analogy of a sjambok, Mr Chairperson. Just if the Committee can allow me to quote it in full?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to explain the question of - Mr Chairperson - the question was asked from Sobuke by Janus where I'll quote from the beginning, the book itself, Mr Chairperson, Manaliso Robert Sobukwe:

That closes my quotes, Mr Chairperson, and on that basis, Mr Chairperson, anybody, ordinary person will ...(indistinct) that simple saying that every white person is an oppressor. If you take it, an intellectual like that one who was a university lecturer, their leader, founding president put it that way that it's not because he's white, it's because we associate it with our oppression and therefore we hate, therefore we cannot fight the system, we have to fight the person who is wielding. It's plain dishonesty to say I hate the sjambok, not the person whose wielding the sjambok because the sjambok did not just take itself and hit me. It's just like to say, Mr Chairperson, when people say look I hate guns as if the gun is doing all the job on it's own, yet he is the person who is holding the gun who is wrong. That completes my argument Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have no submission to make.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: The decision will be handed down later, it will just be put in writing but it will be handed down, it will be in the very near future. Mr Mpshe, victims?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, it will only be with regard to the Vanderbijl operation. It will be the wife to the deceased, Mr Concer, it is Mrs Concer.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got an initial there?

ADV MPSHE: No initial, just Mrs Concer and children. Their address is 146 Villiers Road, Walmer, Port Elizabeth.

The driver of the vehicle, Mr Daniel de Bruin, 55 Livingstone Boulevard, Vanderbijlpark.

That is all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Captain Snyman and Rossouw?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Captain Rossouw's it is in the affidavit, Mr Chairman, the Exhibit B.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I just want to have it on the list because when I do the decision, I've got to put it there and if - but's it's now, is Rossouw still in the police force? Is it just Mr Rossouw.

ADV MPSHE: No more in the police force. It's only Captain Snyman who is still in the force, that is the gentleman who testified, he is still in the force.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I've got the address for Mr Rossouw here on the affidavit and the other one is Captain P.D. Snyman. Do you have the address there?

ADV MPSHE: I don't have his full address expect SAPS Heilbron.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's fine, any place that he can be contacted at. What's it SAPS, Heilbron? Yes.

ADV MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairman and that concludes the hearing for today, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, Mr Mpshe. We'll then adjourn until tomorrow. Tomorrow we have the last of this weeks hearings on the roll and Mr Mpshe what will be a convenient time to commence that?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we can still start tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV MPSHE: This I've conveyed to even the lawyer for the victims, they are aware of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Good and then I hope that all the applicants will be here on time and don't have to come from Vereeniging and start after lunch.

ADV MPSHE: My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not blaming anyone it's just these things happen but I'm just saying I hope it doesn't happen again. Thank you, that brings us to the end of today's hearing. We will be resuming with a fresh hearing tomorrow at the same venue. We'll be starting that at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. So we'll now adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning, thank you.