TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Today we'll be hearing the applications of Michael Mofokeng and Nkosinathi Nkabinde. Before we start I'd just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Advocate Johnny Motata, he is an advocate member of the Johannesburg bar, on my left is Advocate Francis Bosman, she is from Cape Town and I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a judge of the High Court in the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that court. I'd like please for the legal representatives just to place themselves on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicants in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, I'm Eric van den Berg of the firm Bell, Dewar and Hall. I represent the family of the deceased, Diederick Jacobs. I also represent the family of the Stantons.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, J.M. Mpshe for the Truth Commission, Amnesty in particular, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks Mr Mpshe. Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, the first applicant Mr Chairperson is Nokosinathi Nkabinde. May he be sworn in Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkabinde, do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation of the truth?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson you have the affidavit in front of you and I think you have it marked Mr Chairperson as Exhibit A before he confirms it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes the affidavit that was made available to us this morning by Nkosinathi Nkabinde will be received then as Exhibit A.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nkabinde, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

MR NKABINDE: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg, sorry, do you have a copy of the affidavit?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I do Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe do you also have one?

ADV MPSHE: I do Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I'll start reading it as usual for the record. The affidavit reads as:

Operation A - Parkview, Mr Chairperson, not Parktown View.

Parktownview, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, in the applicants application at page 11 of the record he says that he committed two operations, one at Parkview and the other at Newlands. Page 11 down at the bottom, paragraph 9, A3.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. The second one is a mistake to say Newlands, it's Parkview the second one, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So were they both in Parkview then?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Parktown the first one and the other is Parkview. The first one is Parktown, the second one is Parkview, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, there is nothing I'm going to add, that's the evidence of the applicant. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van den Berg, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nkabinde, you state that all five people involved in what you call operations, you refer to them as operatives, is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do I understand by that, that all five people were members of APLA?

MR NKABINDE: I knew my commander, I did not know the other members but they were known to the commander.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So what you say to me is that your commander was a member of APLA and you were a member of APLA but the other three you do not know?

MR NKABINDE: They were members that were involved in the operation that we undertook. I was a member of APLA.

MR VAN DEN BERG: But from your personal knowledge only you and Monde were members of APLA?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When were you released from prison in 1993?

MR NKABINDE: I think it was in March during the year 1993.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And when did you come into contact with Monde Gadebe?

MR NKABINDE: During 1983 but I don't remember the month quite well. It could have been November/December, somewhere thereabout.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Perhaps Mr Nkabinde, I formulated my question poorly. Once you were released from prison, you say you think it was in March 1993. When thereafter did you first make contact with Monde Gadebe?

MR NKABINDE: I met Monde Gadebe during 1993, it could have been November/December.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And is it correct that you were in constant contact with him from then on, from November/December 1993?

MR NKABINDE: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And is it correct that you saw him on a daily basis from about November/December 1993?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I would see him sometimes but I wouldn't say on a daily basis.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know a Captain Hoed?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please spell that name Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: It's the Afrikaans equivalent of hat.

MR NKABINDE: No, I do not know him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: After your arrest for the murder of Mr Jacobs were you ever taken to Delareyville or to Lichtenburg?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I was taken to Lichtenburg together with the Brixton police. I think it was Phillip Stiet or Stiete. We were from Brixton to Lichtenburg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do I understand your amnesty application correctly that you seek amnesty just for the murder and the armed robbery at the Jacobs' home and for the armed robbery at the Stanton home? There are no other incidents for which you seek amnesty?

MR NKABINDE: Yes these are the operations that I've asked or applied for amnesty, the ones that you've just referred to.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, I have a bundle of documents, mostly press clippings which I would like to hand up to the Committee and to use for purposes of cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got copies, Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I do indeed, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just on that one point while you're handing them out. Mr Nkabinde, you say you've got no other applications other than this one that we are hearing today, applications for amnesty?

MR NKABINDE: No, there is no other application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think Mr van den Berg, we'll receive this bundle of news clippings as Exhibit B and when you refer to them it will be B1 as you've numbered them through to B16.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nkabinde, on page 2 of the bundle B, B2, is a press clipping from the Sunday Times of the 23rd January 1994. It lists a series of incidents. Do you have it in front of you? There's also a picture, a graphic, a map with a series of numbers on it. Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I have consulted telephonically with a former Warrant Officer Tiedt, that's T-i-e-d-t, Mr Chairperson, who was with the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit and with Captain Hoed. Other than items 1 and 2 on the narrative, that's the armed robbery of Brett Hilton Barber and the death of John Dodds, these two gentlemen have personal knowledge of each of the crimes enumerated there. I put it to you that each and every one of those crimes involved Monde Gadebe. Can you comment on that?

CHAIRPERSON: That's from number 3 through to 12?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

MR NKABINDE: I have absolutely no knowledge of these operations that you have just referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: You must have, Mr Nkabinde, because number 10 is Dirk Jacobs and number 11 is K.R. Stanton and number 12 is the car crash in the Stanton's car?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I know of the three, these are the ones for which I've applied for amnesty.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You will see that item 3 is an armed robbery on the 24th December 1993? It was an armed robbery of a service station at which petrol, oil, cigarettes and money was stolen.

CHAIRPERSON: At Sterkspruit?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NKABINDE: I have no knowledge of that, I wasn't present when it took place.

ADV MOTATA: Mr van den Berg may I just intervene here? You had a question that Tiedt and Hoed had personal knowledge that Monde was involved and your question was does he have knowledge of that, I don't think that question was answered?

Am I correct?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

MR NKABINDE: I have no knowledge of that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Perhaps to follow on, the question from Advocate Motata, you can't dispute what Captain Hoed and former Warrant Officer Tiedt would say in this regard, can you?

MR NKABINDE: I wouldn't dispute that because I was not present when these took place, I've submitted an application for the incidents in which I was involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr van den Berg, just a question of clarity here? I see from this B2, it says that the - no it's fine, I see it, they've got the date behind it. It's alright.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nkabinde, I'm not going to take you through each and every one of these incidents save to say that insofar as Tiedt and Hoed are concerned, each and every one of these incidents, that's from item 3 onwards, these were acts of criminality?

MR NKABINDE: I will speak to you with regard to number 10 as well as number 13, the rest you cannot ask me about because I was not involved. I was fighting for my land or we were fighting for our land and repossessing.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now according to you there were five people involved in these two what you've called operations. There was Monde Gadebe who is now deceased, is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: Yes Monde Gadebe is since been deceased.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Kopane Tshabalala is also deceased, he died in that motor vehicle accident?

MR NKABINDE: He died in the Smithfield car accident, in Smithfield.

MR VAN DEN BERG: There is Michael Mofokeng, your co-applicant, is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: What about him?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm just ascertaining from you the five people who were involved in this matter?

MR NKABINDE: Yes he was.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yourself?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And Thabang Tjitja.

MR NKABINDE: That is correct he was present.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know where Mr Tjitja is today?

MR NKABINDE: He is in prison but I don't know which one.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now there are only two applicants today, yourself and Mr Mofokeng. Mr Tjitja is not an applicant today. Can you comment on that?

MR NKABINDE: There's absolutely nothing I can say about Choice, it's up to him whether he does submit an application or he doesn't.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I have consulted with Mr Tjitja, he is in the Zonderwater Prison. When I first spoke with him he denied all knowledge of these two operations. He repeated the evidence that he gave at his criminal trial. Mr Chairperson that evidence is summarised in his judgment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in the judgment which is part of the bundle, yes I have read that thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When I advised Mr Tjitja that both you and Mr Mofokeng had sought amnesty he told me a different story.

MR NKABINDE: Whatever Thabang Tjitja said is up to him. I am telling you things according to my own perspective as I saw them or as they happened, whatever Thabang told you is his own perspective.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now Mr Tjitja is presently serving a life imprisonment sentence and at the time he was involved in the act with yourselves he was on bail pending an application for leave for appeal against a conviction for armed robbery. Do you know about that?

MR NKABINDE: I did hear about that but we were not in the same prison.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Tjitja says that he was never received any military training, that he is not a member of APLA and that this was not an APLA operation.

MR NKABINDE: I did say before that Tjitja was not a member of APLA he was brought to me by Monde. That is why he hasn't submitted an application for amnesty probably because he is not an APLA member.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, you say in your affidavit at paragraph 5 of the affidavit:

When I asked you about that you said you only had personal knowledge in respect of yourself and in respect of Mr Gadebe, you couldn't comment in respect of the other three members.

MR NKABINDE: That is correct. I am still saying that, Thabang was not a member of APLA, the people that I knew were members of APLA was Monde as well as myself because we knew each other. The rest of the members were brought to me by Monde as the commander, he introduced them to me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm going to argue, Mr Nkabinde, that what you've now said is not what you said earlier on?

MR NKABINDE: I'm repeating what I said before, there's nothing that has changed in my statement.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes, I think we can agree to disagree on that. I can refer you to your affidavit, you refer to "Operation A" and that is Parkview. This is the murder of Mr Jacobs.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was first of all Parktownview, then it was Parkview and then lastly it was Parktown. I think if we can clear this up finally, because now you've referred it to Parkview again?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson that is what I'd hoped to do.

CHAIRPERSON: I do know that there's no such place as Parktownview however.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, you were charged with - the first charge at your criminal trial was that of murder and that it was - the charge was formulated as follows and I'm interpreting it from Afrikaans, that on or approximately the 16th January 1994 and at or near 9th Avenue, 5, 9th Avenue, Parktown North, in the District of Johannesburg, you unlawfully killed Diederick Jacobus Jacobs. Was that the charge on which you were convicted?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I think that was how it was formulated and I got convicted.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So you agree with me that this incident took place in Parktown North?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now if we can just deal with the detail of that incident. You say at paragraph 7 that three whites came out of the house. Can you identify those three whites?

I don't expect you to name them by name because from what I understand you don't know them personally, but were they male, were they female, were they young, were they old? Who were those three whites?

MR NKABINDE: I saw a female as well as a young girl and one male settler.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So the three people that came out of the house, there were two females and a male?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkabinde at the time that this occurred what time of the day was it, more or less?

MR NKABINDE: It was late afternoon, I think it was in the evening, it was at about 8 in the evening if I'm not mistaken.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Miss Heloise Jacobs who testified at the criminal trial says that she had gone out for a short period of time to go and put petrol in her car and when she returned to her residence, when she returned to her home and whilst she was still in the car she was confronted by a person brandishing a firearm. Can you comment on that?

MR NKABINDE: When we attacked the household we were attacking the settlers whom we got there. When we got there, there were three people who got out of the house and when we attacked them, there's one who managed to escape and went into the house. The commander went into the house and followed suit. The other one got into the car, that is when we attacked her with Kopane and took her out of the car. I took the keys, the car keys. We took her into the house. Michael and Thabang Tjitja were taking the other ones. We went into the house. When we took the other ones from the car Kopane was attacking the other one, Thabang and Mike. Soon after we had taken the other settler out of the car we heard some gunshot and went into the house to get one of the settlers lying on the ground and we had come with one settler that we had got out of the car. We tied them up, we forced them to lie on the ground and we took the ties and tied their feet as well as their hands. After having done that we heard the bell, somebody was knocking and the commander went out to investigate as to who that was. When the commander came back he said that the security guy had run away and we therefore had to withdraw. Before then, when the commander went out I ransacked the place and I got hold of two guns. We thereafter went out. The commander had got some prior information that there were two guns in the house. We duly got the guns and took them with. We withdrew in accordance with the commander's instructions, so we went back to where we came from.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'd really just asked you about how many people you'd found outside the house and you've now repeated ...(intervention)

MR NKABINDE: There were three that we got outside the house.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You see not that a great deal turns on it, Mr Nkabinde, but there was only Heloise Jacobs who was outside the house and when she was confronted by you, she pressed the panic button which set off the alarm. This alerted her father, the deceased, Dirk Jacobs and he came upstairs. When he realised what was happening, he went back into the house calling for his wife to get a gun so that he could defend himself. He was shot whilst he was unarmed.

MR NKABINDE: Jacobs was outside with his family, that is the two female settlers as well as himself. From there he ran into the house and the commander advanced him. We took the other female out of the car. Mofokeng and Thabang Tjitja attacked the young woman. Kopane and myself took this other white settler out of the car. As we proceeded towards the house we heard some gunshot, that's when we got the other settler on the ground, he had been shot. What you're telling me is new to me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Dirk Jacobs who had been shot, what happened to him after he was shot?

MR NKABINDE: We tied them, they were inside the house at that time. We went through the house, ransacked it and retrieved two guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkabinde, he's asking what happened to the person who was shot, what happened to him. We don't want to hear the whole incident, if you can just listen to the question. He's asking after Mr Jacobs was shot, was anything done to Mr Jacobs? That's the question.

MR NKABINDE: We tied them if I'm not mistaken, I think we tied them.

CHAIRPERSON: You say then did you also tie the man who had been shot?

MR NKABINDE: I don't remember much with regard to Jacob but I do remember that we did tie the two females, I don't remember what happened to Jacob.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You can't dispute that he was tied up, despite the fact that he had a fatal gunshot wound you tied him up?

MR NKABINDE: I don't remember.

MR VAN DEN BERG: There was a request made to you after Mr Jacobs was shot, that medical help be sought. You refused that, didn't you?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct, he said he wanted to phone the ambulance, I refused flatly and I kicked him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you did what?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I kicked him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: We move on with your affidavit. You say paragraph 10:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Grant me a moment Mr Chairperson, I'm just looking for a reference?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg I see that it's five past 11, would this be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm in your hands, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think it probably would be. We're going to just take a short tea adjournment.

ON RESUMPTION

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: (s.u.o.)

MR VAN DEN BERG: (continues) ...(inaudible) operation, was that to repossess firearms or was it to kill Mr Jacobs?

MR MKABINDE: It was to obtain firearms, repossess them from the settlers because they came into our land having nothing in their hands, they just dispossessed us when they came so we were repossessing whatever we had been dispossessed of.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So if I understand you correctly, the purpose of this operation was to retrieve firearms that were at the Jacobs' home?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It was not the purpose of this operation to kill Mr Jacobs?

MR NKABINDE: He did not die or was not killed by mistake, it's one settler one bullet, that was our policy.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What about the other two settlers in the house?

MR NKABINDE: We tied them up but we did not kill them.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You said that Gadebe had information that there were guns in the house, did he tell you how he got that information or how he came about that?

MR NKABINDE: I'm a soldier, I act upon instructions and I don't ask questions.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Insofar as the Stantons are concerned, it's correct that they live in Parkview and not in Parktown as your affidavit refers to?

MR NKABINDE: Yes it's Parkview.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Here you came across two domestic workers who you tied up and across four members of the Stanton household who you also tied up?

MR NKABINDE: Are we through with the first operation?

CHAIRPERSON: If you can just answer the question, Mr Nkabinde. Well it wasn't a question, it was just a statement. Perhaps you can put a question, Mr van den Berg?

MR NKABINDE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is it correct that at the Stanton household there were two domestic workers who were tied up and then four members of the household who you also tied up?

MR NKABINDE: When we got there, we waited and we saw one black person, we ...(intervention)

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, I don't want you to repeat what's in your affidavit, we've already - that's on the record, I'm just asking you to confirm whether all the people that you found on the premises, that is two domestic workers and four members of the household, whether they were tied up, that's all I'm asking you.

MR NKABINDE: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And one of the people that you tied up was a six year old boy, is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: I do not know his age but he was a kid I should think.

MR VAN DEN BERG: He was a kid. Can I refer you to the bundle of documents, at page 47? It's an extract from the judgment at your criminal trial. There the learned judge summarises and the second paragraph, the evidence of a Mr Andrew Kirk, do you have that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Andrew Kirk was called. Can I just by way of - before we return to this, just out of curiosity, why did you want Mr Kirk to come to the house? I see in your affidavit at paragraph 14 you say towards the end of the sentence:

Why did you do that?

MR NKABINDE: That was said by my commander. The commander said he got this woman speaking on the phone and directed her to tell the person to come to the scene. That is the commander who said that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know the reason?

MR NKABINDE: Yes he called him so that we could also tie him as one of the settlers. We wanted him to be part of the victims.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I can return you to page 47, it says:

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: "There was a threat to kill the child, Timothy, who, as he and Mrs Andrew Kirk puts it, was "knocked around a bit".

Do you see that? And subsequently tied up, do you recall that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now this child was asleep at the time when you arrived at the home? Is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yet you woke him, knocked him around a bit and tied him up?

MR NKABINDE: We were not joking, we were on a mission. We woke him up, we tied him up. We knew what we were doing, we knew exactly what we were doing.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The purpose of this mission was also to recover firearms?

MR NKABINDE: Yes we wanted guns but couldn't get hold of guns, we repossessed whatever we could lay our hands on.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you have information that there were guns at the Stanton household?

MR NKABINDE: The commander told us that he had some information to that effect.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now I put it to you and if it's necessary, I will call one of the members of the Stanton household to testify, there were no guns at that household, there were no firearms whatsoever?

MR NKABINDE: Yes, we did not get any guns, we searched the place but we couldn't get any.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, are you a person who watches television?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You're an APLA cadre you say and do you keep yourself up to date with what is happening in the news and what is happening in the country?

MR NKABINDE: Sometimes I do watch the news, sometimes I don't and as a member of APLA, I have to watch the T.V. so that I can update myself with the current affairs.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you read newspapers?

MR NKABINDE: I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you in bundle B to page 8 and 9 of the bundle? Do you see that? It's a newspaper cutting of the 2nd November 1993. Mr Chairperson, it appears to be an extract from The Citizen but I cannot confirm that but there is written, you'll see in the second column, C.I.T., these clippings are all extracts from the clipping service at the Star and it appears to be a clipping from The Citizen on the 2nd November 1993.

ADV MOTATA: But what is written there, Mr van den Berg, S.A. African PAC, what would that be, is that clippings from The Star or from those people?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Honourable Committee Member, the clippings are filed by way of files and by way of subject headings and so this would have been filed under a file entitled "South African Political Movements - PAC" is where it was extracted from.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you see the press clipping Mr Nkabinde? It's entitled "Moratorium on Violence" and sub-titled "PAC, APLA and Government Agree" and if you look at the first column of the story, it's says the following:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BB2ERG: It goes on to say:

If I can refer you to a further press clipping on page 10, this is a press clipping also of the 2nd November 1993, it's an extract from The Star of that date. Mr Chairperson, I think that yours will be cut and all you will have on yours is "Government/APL" the rest of the heading reads "Government/APLA Breakthrough"

Do you see that Mr Nkabinde?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And there it says:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If you look down at the second paragraph under the word "moratorium" a joint statement said:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It carries on and I'll read it to you ...(intervention)

MR NKABINDE: We as members of APLA were not aware of this, we take instructions or orders from people in authority. We do not go around taking whatever is written in newspapers and act upon them. This is a press clipping, it's got absolutely no bearing on me and my actions what I have to do or refrain from doing. What is written here could be written or reported by anyone and he could report selectively if he wanted to, so I take instructions from my commander or people in authority, I do not take any instructions from newspapers clippings.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm going to continue reading from this extract, Mr Nkabinde. It said:

Can I refer you to a further press clipping? It's on page 12 of the bundle. Again, Mr Chairperson, I think that it may be cut off in the copy that you have. The heading is "APLA to Lay" and that is probably as far as your clipping goes. It's "APLA to Lay down Arms". I can make available the copies I extracted from the library if the Chairperson so requires. This is a press clipping of the 17th January 1994 and reads as follows:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do. As I've already pointed out that they were still liaising with the press, they had not yet spoken to us in that regard.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So you say these decisions made by the PAC and made by APLA had no bearing on you whatsoever?

MR NKABINDE: I did not say that. I said we do not take instructions from press clippings, we take instructions from our commanders. If there was a specific instruction that we should place a moratorium on violence or forget about the armed struggle, newspapers can report anything, journalists can report whatever they want to, whether it's true or not so we could not depend on press clippings or newspaper reports for our instructions.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now can I refer you back to your affidavit? There are two portions firstly at paragraph 10 and you say there:

"We withdrew" and this in respect of the Parktown North incident in which Mr Jacobs was murdered.

And then you set out there what you surrendered and then at paragraph 16 where you deal with the armed robbery on the Stanton household, you say:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you confirm that that is what happened?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do confirm.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And I presume you say that to show that there was no personal gain on your part in respect of these two incidents, is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm asking whether you make those two statements, paragraph 10 and paragraph 16, to demonstrate on of the criteria for amnesty and that criteria is that there was no personal gain, in other words you were not enriched?

MR NKABINDE: No, that was no personal gain because we took orders and instructions, that is why we handed them over to the commander, we never took them for our own personal use or personal gain.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you to page 42 of the bundle of documents? That's again the judgment in your criminal trial and at about line 12, do you have it Mr Nkabinde? It's towards the end of the sentence, it says:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And I'm correct that you were accused number 2 in that matter?

MR NKABINDE: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Alright, it says:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So it's not correct that you handed over everything to your commander, you kept things for yourself?

MR NKABINDE: We repossessed these items and the items that we repossessed were from the settlers who had come into our country without any possessions and when I got injured at that time, it was raining and I told my commander that I needed something to wear. He gave me a jacket, I wore the jacket when we were being taken to Smithfield and when we got to Smithfield they gave me or they said I should undress and I realised that this jacket had some jewellery inside it. These are the things we had given to the commander before. We had not taken them for ourselves, we had given them to the commander and that lumber jacket was given to me by the commander when it was raining.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you see Mr Nkabinde, that's exactly the same thing that you told the criminal court and I want to refer you further on, on page 42 and it's at about line 25. The final paragraph at that page. It says accused one and two were detained, it was Smithfield Hospital. A nurse, Mrs Pansi, found jewellery under the pillow of accused number two. MR NKABINDE: That is not true, these are the things that came out of the lumber jacket that was given to me by my commander. I undressed and took all the items and gave them to the nursing sister. There were no items or jewellery items that were found underneath my pillow and I wouldn't deny that if it happened because I've come here to speak the truth, I've admitted to certain things which you did not have any knowledge of.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So whatever the nurse says it's ...(intervention)

MR NKABINDE: That is a blue lie. These are the people who were being told by the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad as to what to say.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm not going to take that any further Mr Nkabinde. I can take you to page 50 of the record, or 50 of the bundle of documents. About the middle of the page line 14, it's the paragraph which begins at "Johannesburg according to Kok", do you have that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So not only did you have jewellery in your possession but so did members of or family members of the people or family members of members of the gang also have jewellery in their possession as well as a radio.

MR NKABINDE: It's the first time I hear it, my family was never found in possession of any jewellery whatsoever and whatever we retrieved or robbed from the said parties, were not taken to our respective families but were given to the commander. Now what you are saying is totally new to me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It's new, does that mean that you agree with it or that you disagree with it?

MR NKABINDE: I do not agree with it because I never saw it and the fact that there was some jewellery that was found at my home is absolutely not true because whatever we took from these settlers were given to the commander. My family never got anything out of this operation.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Just on that point Mr Nkabinde, when you say the goods were handed over to the commander, were they handed over with everybody present? Did you hand it over at the same time in each other's presence, to Monde Gadebe?

MR NKABINDE: From the operation we take all the items, all the goods and placed them in the possession of the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm saying when you did that were you all together at the same place at the same time or did you do it and then when you weren't there Mr Mofokeng did it and then later somebody else did it or did you all do it at the same time?

MR NKABINDE: We would do it all at the same time when we were coming back from the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, would grant me a short opportunity, I just want to see if there's anything further in the amnesty application itself, the prescribed form, that I want to cover?

Can I just clarify or confirm two things. Firstly, at the time of these two incidents your instructions you say came from Monde Gadebe, is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And the object of both incidents, you say, was to repossess primarily arms for the struggle?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg. Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you.

Mr Nkabinde, two operations, were they planned at a particular meeting?

MR NKABINDE: Our commander came to us and informed us that he said certain information with regard to arms so we should prepare ourselves to embark on the operations.

ADV MPSHE: I'll repeat myself. Were they planned at a meeting?

MR NKABINDE: Yes we met and the commander pointed out that there was some information that he got to the effect that there were some guns at a certain household so we should prepare ourselves to embark on the operation.

ADV MPSHE: I take it there was a meeting, where was the meeting?

MR NKABINDE: We were at Naledi.

ADV MPSHE: At whose place?

MR NKABINDE: I think it was a back room or back rooms that were hired by someone.

ADV MPSHE: Whose place Mr Nkabinde?

MR NKABINDE: I do not know the surname of the household but Kopane was living there, he was leasing the place, he had hired the place.

ADV MPSHE: I'm sure you know the date when the meeting was held, what was the date?

MR NKABINDE: I think it was a week.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean, you think it was a week prior to the 16th January which was the date of the first incident?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct, a week prior. He came to me and told me that we should have this operation and we met at that back room. I don't remember the date.

ADV MPSHE: Who else was at that meeting? Is it everybody who was involved in the operation or yourself and Monde and any other person?

MR NKABINDE: It was Monde, myself, Kopane, Thabang, the commander and myself.

ADV MPSHE: My colleague asked you at a very early stage as to whether all of you were APLA members, do you remember that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

ADV MPSHE: And you answer was you are one as well as Monde, you don't know about the others, the other five as you say?

CHAIRPERSON: The other three.

ADV MPSHE: The other three because you're five, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NKABINDE: Yes that is correct, I did not know the other ones, Monde brought these other three to us.

ADV MPSHE: Were these other three also in that meeting?

MR NKABINDE: Yes they were.

ADV MPSHE: Is it not so Mr Nkabinde that in a structure like APLA members knew very well that you shouldn't just easily trust anybody, actually - actually, cadres did not even trust one another, was that not the position?

MR NKABINDE: Yes that is correct, but we do recruit people.

ADV MPSHE: Now if it is the position that you should not trust easily and you want to extend even as it was your policy not to trust one another, how could you have three non-members in an APLA operation where it was planned. How could you trust people who were not even members?

CHAIRPERSON: Who he didn't know to be members.

MR NKABINDE: It the commander trusted them so much as to bring them with I could not gainsay that because the commander did not say we were going to embark on an operation at a certain place, he did not divulge those facts at that time.

ADV MPSHE: Oh, he didn't divulge the facts at the time when you had a meeting?

MR NKABINDE: He said there is an operation that we should undertake. He had some information to the effect that there were guns but he did not specify the place.

ADV MPSHE: There's no difference. Turn to your application page 12 of the bundle, paragraph 10(a), the fourth line. I will read for convenience:

Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

ADV MPSHE: What is a political target?

MR NKABINDE: It's white people who came from Europe in 1652 to come and rob us of our land. Our targets are the settlers.

ADV MPSHE: Now you were asked very lengthily by my learned friend about the suspension of the armed struggle and you gave answers as well as explanations. Was the armed struggle ultimately suspended by the PAC according to your knowledge now?

MR NKABINDE: Yes we have suspended the armed struggle, we are in a process of democracy because that is just what we have been fighting for and dying for, that is why it is like this today because we fought for it, that's why we had to suspend the armed struggle.

ADV MPSHE: When was the suspension called?

MR NKABINDE: I'm not sure about the date because we got arrested at that time and the commander had not yet told us that we were suspending the armed struggle. We got arrested just at that point.

ADV MPSHE: Let's leave the commander, that's what you told my learned friend that you listened to the commander, but I said according to your knowledge was it ever suspended, you said yes. Now on your knowledge, not the commander's knowledge, you don't know the date, the month?

MR NKABINDE: We suspended the armed struggle, I do not know the date because I got arrested and after we got arrested we did not know that the armed struggle had been suspended. We continued attacking the enemies up to the point when I got arrested.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Nkabinde, I want you to understand me, I don't want to confuse you. I know that you were not told by the commander that's why you went on with the operations, that I know, but my question to you about the suspension, you said the suspension did ultimately take place. On your knowledge, are we together?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Now you don't know the date when it was - the armed struggle was suspended? You don't know the month when the armed struggle was suspended, am I correct?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Do you know the year perhaps?

MR NKABINDE: If I'm not mistaken that was during 1984.

ADV MPSHE: 1984?

MR NKABINDE: 1994.

ADV MPSHE: '94 or '84?

MR NKABINDE: 1994.

ADV MPSHE: If I said to you the armed struggle was suspended on the 16th January 1994 would you accept it? The 16th January, precisely on that date and precisely the date when you committed one of the offences?

MR NKABINDE: I've already pointed out that we had not yet received the order. Our commander had not told us that on the 16th or as from the 16th January 1994 we should stop with the armed struggle or place a moratorium.

ADV MPSHE: You told us that you met Monde, that is Monde Gadebe, around December 1993, am I correct?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: Were you meeting him for the first time then?

MR NKABINDE: I knew him through another African with whom we were in exile and we were introduced together with Monde. Then we started phoning each other, that's how we got to know each other.

ADV MPSHE: When did you first meet Monde?

MR NKABINDE: I don't remember whether it was November or December as of the month or the date.

ADV MPSHE: ...(inaudible) December 1993 had you met Monde?

MR NKABINDE: Sorry?

ADV MPSHE: Before December 1993 when had you met him again?

Before the date?

MR NKABINDE: It was my first time to see him in December 1993.

ADV MPSHE: And as you said earlier on that you met him that time in December 1993 and you communicated by telephone, am I right? And then you met in December 1993, in January the very following year you carry out a serious operation together?

MR NKABINDE: Yes we contacted each other over the phone and meet on a consent basis.

ADV MPSHE: Now going back to Exhibit A, that is your affidavit, paragraph 4, that's where you say that you - you state that you joined PAC in 1976 and again in 1976 you left the country to be trained in Tanzania, do you see that portion?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

ADV MPSHE: At that time in 1976 who was the President of PAC?

MR NKABINDE: It was Robert Sobukwe.

ADV MPSHE: Are you sure?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I'm positive.

ADV MPSHE: Who was the acting president in '76?

MR NKABINDE: It was Robert Sobukwe. I'm not sure.

ADV MPSHE: What was Potlako Laballo in 1976? Potlako Laballo what was he in 1976 within the PAC?

MR NKABINDE: I think he was a high commander if I'm not mistaken.

ADV MPSHE: If I say to you he was not, he was actually the acting president, what would you say? Because you're not sure, let's leave it, you're not sure, not so?

In Tanzania, when you were undergoing training, did you belong to any platoon?

MR NKABINDE: I was a foot soldier in Tanzania.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you belong to any platoon?

MR NKABINDE: I went for training as a soldier and I was a soldier.

ADV MPSHE: Do you know what a platoon is? A soldier must know what a platoon is? You don't know? If you don't know we'll pass on, we'll go to other questions.

MR NKABINDE: A platoon is a soldier.

ADV MPSHE: You don't know, let's pass on. If you don't know, you don't know.

MR NKABINDE: No I do not know.

ADV MPSHE: Now in 1976, that was the year APLA, in 1976 who was the commander of APLA in 1976.

MR NKABINDE: Zulu.

ADV MPSHE: Who?

MR NKABINDE: It was Zulu. It was his real name.

ADV MPSHE: And in 1978?

MR NKABINDE: 1978 I was coming back into the country from exile.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was who was the commander of APLA in 1978, do you know?

MR NKABINDE: The commander that I knew was Biza. It was commander ...(inaudible) it was Zulu. During 1976 then it was Biza.

ADV MPSHE: What was Biza's name?

MR NKABINDE: I know his comrade's name. We used to call him Biza at the camp.

ADV MPSHE: Let's take it further. Was Biza in the country or outside the country at that time if any Biza existed?

MR NKABINDE: He was inside the camp.

ADV MPSHE: Do you know a person by the name of Ntandala? T.M. Ntandala? You should be knowing him, do you know him?

MR NKABINDE: No I do not.

ADV MPSHE: Are you sure? If I say to you T.M. Ntandala was the commander of APLA, what would you say to me. At that time when you joined?

MR NKABINDE: I wouldn't dispute that but the commander that I knew was Zulu and Biza.

ADV MPSHE: Alright. Let's move further on in 1978, I going to ask you simple things. The leadership of the PAC in 1978. I will help you. In '78 after Butla Bolibalo and others, PAC formed what they called a triumvirate do you recall that in '78? They made up the leadership.

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

ADV MPSHE: Now who were the members of the triumvirate that made up the actual leadership of PAC, the members, just the names?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what a triumvirate is? It's a committee of three.

MR NKABINDE: I have forgotten their names.

ADV MPSHE: If given time will you remember them? Because to me they are important.

MR NKABINDE: I know of Zulu, Tshabalala the high commander as well as Dan Mofokeng?

ADV MPSHE: Dan Mofokeng?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: The local and the current MEC for Local Government in the Gauteng Province?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Was he PAC? Dan Mofokeng?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Are you sure about it sir? Was Dan Mofokeng not ANC?

MR NKABINDE: I'm not referring to Dan Mofokeng the ANC member, I'm referring Uvumaro, he's comrade name was Ramaro, he was a PAC member, I'm not referring to Dan Mofokeng the ANC member.

ADV MPSHE: So those are the names you know that made up the PAC leadership in 1978?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: I see. Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: What's the answer, Mr Mpshe?

MR NKABINDE: And Sam Palma?

ADV MPSHE: What?

MR NKABINDE: Sabelo Palma.

ADV MPSHE: I'm going to do that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but now you've given us four names. The question was do you know who the members of the triumvirate were in 1978. The triumvirate is three, now you've said it's Zulu, Tshabalala, Dan Mofokeng, his comrade name was Romaro and also Sabelo Palma, that's four?

MR NKABINDE: According to my memory, if it serves me well, these are the people that I do remember.

ADV MPSHE: Okay. Do you know the person by the name of David Sebeko? It was around '78?

MR NKABINDE: I do not remember him, maybe I know him by comrade name.

ADV MPSHE: Do you know the person by the name of Vusi Makhe?

MR NKABINDE: No I don't, I probably know him by the comrade name.

ADV MPSHE: Do you know the person by the name of Mtwedi Beki, he is currently in Mmabatho now?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what was that surname, Beki?

ADV MPSHE: Vusi Makhe.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no the second one, the last one you mentioned?

ADV MPSHE: The last one, Mtwedi Beki. To help you, he is currently in Mmabatho, Council of Mmabatho, City Council?

MR NKABINDE: I do not know him.

ADV MPSHE: Now let me inform you, these three people I have mentioned to you, they formed the leadership of PAC in 1978 and they formed what we called the triumvirate.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Chair, to be fair to the witness, wouldn't you say where these people, the committee of three, the triumvirate were stationed because we must know the evidence before us is that he was in Tanzania and you would recall that at a stage Sebeko was in America, so we must be very clear about that?

ADV MPSHE: I don't know how to put it to him but I can respond to that.

ADV MOTATA: I don't want that, I want you to tell him because the evidence before us is that he was trained in Tanzania. From Tanzania he came back to South Africa so that when you called the triumvirate, the so called leadership, where was this leadership based, that's very important.

ADV MPSHE: Correct. Is it not so that if you are a member, no I won't say if you're a member, as a member of PAC and APLA for that matter, you are to know the leadership of your organisation?

MR NKABINDE: Yes that is correct but I did not know them very well at that time, I only knew my commander.

ADV MPSHE: Is it not so that some of the leadership of PAC, during those times some of them were on the ground in the country and some were based outside the country?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct, some were in Robben Island, some were outside the country.

ADV MPSHE: Yes and some would get you, if you remember, would receive instructions via your commanders coming from Zimbabwe, is it not so, where the leadership would have been?

MR NKABINDE: During 1976 Zimbabwe was still under the leadership of the settlers or under the governance of the settlers so we did not have bases during 1976.

ADV MPSHE: I'll leave it at that. I'll tell you Mr Nkabinde why I'm asking all these questions about the leadership at the time when you joined and even further down after you'd joined, but perhaps before I do that, let me ask you one final question. Did you ever read the doctrine and the beliefs of PAC, do you know them?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: What are the beliefs of PAC, just one?

MR NKABINDE: It's for us to get back our land from the settlers.

ADV MPSHE: Good and I want to put to you that we know of repossession units, not so? You know about repossession units as well?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

ADV MPSHE: Good and the repossession units had commanders, that you know, not so?

MR NKABINDE: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Now to which unit did you belong?

MR NKABINDE: It was the repossession unit, the one I am with at the moment.

ADV MPSHE: What was it's code name?

MR NKABINDE: B2, BB2, Beauty Salon or Platoon.

ADV MPSHE: Let's get clarity, is it platoon unit or BB2 unit or Beauty Salon unit? You mentioned three things?

MR NKABINDE: It was a repossessing unit.

ADV MPSHE: I know and thanks for that. What was it's code name, that's all that I want?

MR NKABINDE: B2 Saloon.

ADV MPSHE: B2 Saloon?

MR NKABINDE: Yes it was B2 Saloon.

ADV MPSHE: I'll leave it at that. No further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the witness?

ADV MOTATA: I've written some down Mr Chairman, could you give me time just to go through my notes again?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps let me ask Advocate Bosman then while you do that if she has any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

Do you know a document called "The Fifteen Points of Understanding"? Is that correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: The Fifteen Points of Attention.

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry. What is that document?

MR NKABINDE: The document is rules and principles that covers us as members of the PAC, it guides us as cadres.

ADV BOSMAN: As a member of this repossessing unit, did you receive firearms, were you armed, were you given arms?

MR NKABINDE: These are the weapons that we had repossessed from the settlers.

ADV BOSMAN: In how many operations prior to these two operations were you involved on behalf of APLA?

MR NKABINDE: It's only these operations for which I've applied for amnesty, that is the Parktown North as well as the Parkview operation.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry. What did you do as an APLA soldier at the time prior to these operations if you were not involved in any?

MR NKABINDE: I would meet with the commanders, discuss certain issues and we would meet up till the time that he told me about this operation that we should undertake.

ADV BOSMAN: Were there absolutely no activities apart from you meeting with the commander?

MR NKABINDE: We would phone each other, meet, phone each other and meet.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't know whether you really understand my question, you were an APLA member since 1976, is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: What did you do from 1976 until 1994 at the time of these incidents as an APLA soldier and an APLA cadre?

MR NKABINDE: I was involved in an operation during 1979, I got arrested and I was involved in another one and I was arrested and got out in 1983. Then in 1994 I got involved in another operation for which I got arrested. This is the operation for which I'm asking amnesty.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you not apply for the other operations?

MR NKABINDE: It's because I had served a sentence with regard to these operations.

ADV BOSMAN: And then just a final question, when you went out on this first operation, you went with people who appear not to have been APLA members and yet you were the only one not to be armed, I find that a bit difficult to understand. Can you shed some light on that?

MR NKABINDE: When we went there we did not have arms. We had gone there to repossess arms.

CHAIRPERSON: If you take a look at what you say in your affidavit, Mr Nkabinde. You say here on paragraph 5 of your affidavit Exhibit A:

Now the question is, you say of the people that you know of those five there was only you and Monde to be APLA cadres, the question is why were you not armed bearing in mind that you were a training APLA soldier? That's the question.

MR NKABINDE: We did not have guns, we were in the process of repossessing guns. We only had two guns. Kopane himself, as I had already point out, that I did not know him, he was known to Monde and we had gone to repossess arms because our unit did not have arms. We were not given any arms by the organisations and there was no way we could get guns except by repossessing them from the settlers.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson, that will be all from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Advocate Bosman. Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.

We accept - let's accept that you were introduced to Gadebe, the commander. Did you tell him you were trained as an APLA cadre, militarily in other words?

MR NKABINDE: Who are you referring to?

ADV MOTATA: Monde the commander, who was the commander, Monde wasn't it?

MR NKABINDE: Yes Monde knew because when I met him there was also another cadre from Tanzania who related to him about me, that's how we got to know each other.

ADV MOTATA: Were you told whether he was also trained militarily?

MR NKABINDE: No he did not tell me about his training but I knew that he was a cadre.

ADV MOTATA: Were you told by the cadre who introduced you that Monde was also trained?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I was told by this cadre who introduced me to Monde. He introduced us to each other as Africans. This African told me that Monde is a cadre, he introduced us to each other as such.

ADV MOTATA: May we just correct the interpretation, "moafrika" means a member of the Pan Africanist congress, not an African. Now when you were trained militarily in Tanzania, what did you do?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what - do you mean when you were trained, what did he do when he was being trained?

ADV MOTATA: In what training, what training he received.

MR NKABINDE: The use of guns and they used to give us some political lectures in Tanzania.

ADV MOTATA: What did those political lectures entail, precisely what?

MR NKABINDE: That the settlers came during the year 1652 to rob us of our land and they came to divide us in Africa.

ADV MOTATA: Not the policy of the PAC?

MR NKABINDE: And that we should fight for our land and repossess it from the settlers.

ADV MOTATA: About the leadership of PAC, were you told in the political training?

MR NKABINDE: The commissar used to conduct political lectures or political classes.

ADV MOTATA: No, no, what I want to know from you, were you told who the structure, the leadership of PAC was? That is between 1976 and 1978?

MR NKABINDE: My leader was Robert Sobukwe, that's what I was told.

ADV MOTATA: Only?

MR NKABINDE: They told us about our commander Zulu and Sam Pam.

ADV MOTATA: Okay let's return to - you say when you returned, you were arrested during the riots. What did you do during the riots? Precisely for what were you arrested?

MR NKABINDE: We attacked a Johnson delivery van.

ADV MOTATA: And in 1983 you said "we were arrested for armed repossession and sentenced for 14 years". Where were you repossessing these arms?

CHAIRPERSON: Armed repossession as such I suppose armed robbery.

ADV MOTATA: Where was this armed repossession done, where?

MR NKABINDE: 1983?

ADV MOTATA: '83.

MR NKABINDE: During 1983 in Springs.

ADV MOTATA: The joining of the PAC underground structures in 1976, do you have an idea which month or during which months were you recruited by the underground structures?

MR NKABINDE: Could you repeat your question please?

ADV MOTATA: When you joined PAC under structures in 1976, which month was it?

MR NKABINDE: If I'm not mistaken, I think it was during July, the month of July.

ADV MOTATA: And when did you leave the country, in 1976?

MR NKABINDE: I think it was during August.

ADV MOTATA: These taxis, this taxi you used to go to repossess firstly at Parktown, you say "as we were moving around", my first question would be, that would be paragraph 6 of the affidavit, my question is was it a private taxi?

MR NKABINDE: Yes it was a private taxi. Maxi taxi.

ADV MOTATA: Was there anybody showing it where to go?

MR NKABINDE: Yes, the commander was directing.

ADV MOTATA: Why was it, because you were there, maxi taxi, you were all together, why was it moving around and not going to the place where you were to repossess?

MR NKABINDE: The maxi taxi never moved around, it just took us straight to where we were going, then we alighted from the maxi taxi and proceeded to where we were going but we did not require the driver to drop us off at the gate because we did not want him to see where we were going so he dropped us off and we went around the corner.

ADV MOTATA: So this moving around in your affidavit it's wrong, the second sentence?

MR NKABINDE: Yes this is a mistake, it never actually moved around. There probably was a misunderstanding between myself and the person who transcribed the statement.

ADV MOTATA: And when you were testifying about paragraph 15, there's something I missed, I just want to fill in, that's my last question. You say "myself and Monde went to open a door and a white person" - what was the sex of this white person?

MR NKABINDE: It was a male.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Nkabinde you say in your affidavit, I refer you yet again to your affidavit, paragraph 16. You say that you came back in both cars. You went with Monde in the Mercedes and the other three went in the Toyota. You say:

What happened to the Toyota?

MR NKABINDE: When I asked my commander, my commander used the phone in Bloemfontein and I wanted to find out as to where the members were, he told me that the car was left in the Free State because there were other cadres who wanted to make use of the car at the Free State so he was phoning those particular cadres to tell them that he had left the car at a certain spot, they should pick it up.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a code name or a contact name?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your code name.

MR NKABINDE: My name was Tami.

CHAIRPERSON: And Monde?

MR NKABINDE: Monde was Luka.

CHAIRPERSON: And any of the other three that went with on the 16th and 18th January at Parkview and Parktown North, did they have any code name?

MR NKABINDE: They referred to them with the very same names that I mentioned here in the affidavit, I do not know their code names.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to get something clear. Are you saying that the five of you were a unit? When I mean a unit, an APLA unit? A repossession unit?

MR NKABINDE: I've already pointed it out that I did not know the three members. I knew Monde and myself as members of the APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Because isn't it so that with the units, the units were the group of people who usually operated together and knew each other, even if they didn't know each other's real names, they knew each other's combat names, they had a commander, they usually had a deputy commander, they were usually four maybe going up to six in number depending on the unit, sometimes even three, but they operated as a team?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct but I knew them by those names, as to whether these were combat names or their real names, these people were brought to me by the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who Monde reported to?

MR NKABINDE: I think he was reporting to his own commander but I don't know who his commander was.

CHAIRPERSON: Now as you sit here today, those other three persons, Thabang, Mofokeng and Kopane, do you know whether they are members of - or that they were members of APLA at that time today, your present knowledge?

MR NKABINDE: I've already explained that I do not know the other three. They were brought to me by Monde. They were, probably they could have been potential recruits or whatever, I don't know, I think Monde could answer that question better.

CHAIRPERSON: But weren't you co-accused in a trial, didn't you have to spend a great deal in each other's company during the course of the trial? I'm asking as you sit here now, didn't you speak about it, didn't you ask them whether they were APLA members after the event?

MR NKABINDE: The person who was close to me was Mike Mofokeng who told me that he was also a member and he was going to be trained in the Transkei when we were crossing into Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Just a single aspect, Mr Chairperson.

You say that the Toyota which was taken from the Stantons was left somewhere so that another unit could make use of it, did I understand you correctly?

MR NKABINDE: Yes my commander was saying that as he was speaking on the phone when he told them that the car had been parked at a certain spot and they had to go and pick the car up.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you recall the spot?

MR NKABINDE: According to what I hear because I was asleep in the car but I think they left it under a certain bridge, according to the description that he gave over the phone, he described a certain bridge and that he had left the car under the bridge. I think it was in the Free State.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, my instructions are, that motor car was left at one of the toll plazas, unlocked with the keys on the roof. Can you comment on that?

MR NKABINDE: I've already told you that I was asleep at that time. I only heard that when my commander was speaking to the people who he was speaking to over the phone. I never saw the car being parked there.

MR VAN DEN BERG: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nkabinde, that concludes your testimony. Thank you, you may stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment, I see it's just before 1 o'clock, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn for the lunch adjournment and try to reconvene as soon as possible. I won't make it for a specific time but as soon as we're ready after if we could recommence, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I've talked to the legal representative of the victims, I think they wanted the applicant again. There's something I want to put, that's why I've called him back so you can enquire from him?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, over the lunch interval we were handed a copy of the applicant's criminal record which I want to submit does not tie in with what he has told this Committee and I would like a chance to recall him to put the contents of his criminal record to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may go ahead.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkabinde, just to inform you, you're still under your former oath?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: (s.u.o.)

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, when you returned to South Africa on your version, when you returned to South Africa having received training in Tanzania, were you armed?

MR NKABINDE: No we were not armed.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You were not armed. I have before me the contents of your criminal record and I want to put the contents to you.

Mr Chairperson, I have copies of the record which I'd like to hand up.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection? This will be Exhibit C.

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Exhibit C.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, can I refer you to paragraph 4 of Exhibit A? You say there:

Do you recall that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If you look at Exhibit C you will see that on the 28th February 1979 you were sentenced to five years imprisonment for armed robbery, apparently involving the use of a panga, do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is that correct?

MR NKABINDE: Yes it is.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then in 1983 on the 12th September 1983 you received two prison sentences, the first one of four years for the theft of a motor vehicle and the second of ten years for another armed robbery, this time it appears that knives were used. Do you see that?

MR NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now it seems to me, Mr Nkabinde that these were acts of pure criminality and they were nothing to do with your alleged operations as an APLA cadre?

MR NKABINDE: These were political matters not criminal matters.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So I think it's a matter for argument, Mr Nkabinde. I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions on this aspect?

ADV MPSHE: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination on this aspect?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions on this latest aspect?

ADV BOSMAN: None thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: I've got none.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Nkabinde, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the next applicant is Michael Mofokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mofokeng do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation to tell the truth?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mofokeng, you have heard the first applicant, Mr Nkabinde, giving evidence before this Committee with regard to the two incidents?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you confirm what has been said by Mr Nkabinde in as far as your role in the two incidents?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes that is where I confirm his evidence, that is where I want to correct him, maybe he forgot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Oh, okay. I understand that, but what I want generally do you confirm what has been said by him with the exception of the incidents where you are going to make corrections?

MR MOFOKENG: The way I heard his evidence, yes I did hear his evidence, I confirm what he said.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you already indicated that there are certain parts of his evidence which you feel that he is not correct or he must have forgotten. Is there anything you want to add, subtract or delete from his evidence with regard to your role in the two incidents? Start with the first one at Parktown.

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I will.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue.

MR MOFOKENG: What I wanted to say to correct Nkosinathi Nkabinde is about the Jacobs incident. When we arrived at that place of the incident, we did not meet three people. At Jacobs house we met a girl called Heloise Jacobs inside the car. We asked her the whereabouts of her father then she said her father's in the house. We took this girl and took her inside the house. Before we came next to the door, the father appeared then before he could try to close the door, comrade shot him. When we entered the house we were on the steps and then Jacobs fell on the floor. After he fell he asked us as to whether "Who sent you here?" Comrade told him that "This is an APLA mission, if you survive you must tell the police that APLA was here." That's what I wanted to correct or add to his evidence. That the first person we met inside the yard is Heloise Jacobs.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay just on that point, sorry Mr Mbandazayo, when you say that Mr Jacobs asked who you were and someone responded by saying we are from APLA and if you survive you must tell the people, did anybody else of the victims, would any of the other victims have heard that being said to him?

MR MOFOKENG: Do you mean the Jacobs family or those who were with me?

CHAIRPERSON: The Jacobs family, I mean from the Jacobs family.

MR MOFOKENG: The person who was in front of me was Heloise Jacobs. I hope he - I believe he heard what was said.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Is there anything you want to add with regard to the late Mr Jacobs incident before we proceed to the second part?

MR MOFOKENG: No there's nothing I want to add further.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let's go to the Parkview incident, the second one. Is there anything you want to correct or subtract or add to what has been said by the first applicant?

MR MOFOKENG: At Mr Stanton's place I will just mention a few issues on that incident. We arrived there, we held them hostage then Comrade ...(indistinct) addressed them. There was a certain lady who was on the phone. When we called them, he addressed them the same way as he did at Jacob's place by saying this is an APLA mission, if you survive you must tell the police that it's APLA. Then he asked them as to whether they have guns then they said they are Christians, they don't hold guns in the place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No other thing you want to add or subtract with regard to the second incident?

MR MOFOKENG: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(inaudible) within PAC or APLA?

MR MOFOKENG: I'm not a member but a supporter of PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the present or during January 1994?

MR MOFOKENG: From when I was - before this incident, even now, I'm a supporter of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee if you were a supporter of the PAC how was it possible that you were involved with people who are alleged, that is Monde, if you confirm it, do you know that he is a trained APLA cadre?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I did. Let me put it this way, I don't know Monde, I know the late Kopane. That is the one who introduced me to comrade Monde.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was his position within PAC or APLA or was he a member of APLA or PAC, Kopane?

MR MOFOKENG: I knew him as a PAC supporter as I am a supporter of PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, he introduced you to Monde, what did he say Monde is?

MR MOFOKENG: He told me that he's an APLA soldier.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know the first applicant that is also an APLA cadre?

MR MOFOKENG: No sir, I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that also accused Thabang Tjitja was APLA or PAC member?

MR MOFOKENG: No I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now going to my first question which you have not answered that, now what were you doing with them when you were involved in the accident in Smithfield?

MR MOFOKENG: In the company I usually visit Kopane, there where Kopane and Monde used to discuss, they used to discuss about general politics then I was interested in those politics. I wanted to be informed and again to receive military training.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now when you went to Smithfield is that anything to do with military training?

MR MOFOKENG: Can you repeat your question sir?

MR MBANDAZAYO: When you were involved in the accident in Smithfield, what had that to do with military training?

MR MOFOKENG: When we encountered the accident there, we were going to Transkei because Monde said there is a base in Transkei where I would get training.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At the time, you have told the Committee that you were a supporter of PAC I take it that you were following the activities of PAC. Did you know at that stage what PAC was doing during that time when you went to training?

MR MOFOKENG: I knew very little about PAC at that time, I did not have in depth knowledge about PAC but I knew a little bit about what it was against in South Africa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way, as you are South African, you knew at the time when you went, you were saying you were going to Transkei, that election will be help in April that year. Did you know that?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also that PAC will be participating in the election?

MR MOFOKENG: When it comes to the participation of PAC in the joint elections I had a little bit of knowledge in January that PAC suspended the armed struggle on the 16th January that year but within PAC there was an unclear statement. I remember Clarence Makwetu said people should go to vote. Before he said that Sabelo Palma said 1994 would be the year of the great storm meaning that there those who wanted to take part in elections and there were those who were against elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't the year of the great storm earlier than 1994?

MR MOFOKENG: I don't remember well, I just remember a little bit that there was something that caused the division that there were those who wanted to take part in elections, there were those who were against elections.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson I can confirm it was 1993, the year of the great storm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I have no further evidence led with regard to this applicant, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van den Berg do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Can I refer you to your amnesty application that's in the bundle of papers? Before I do that, what was the target in respect of - or what was the purpose of the mission at the Jacobs' house?

MR MOFOKENG: The objective was that we should get a car which will take us to Transkei and then we knew that Mr Jacobs was a member of the right-wing and therefore the right-wing members were targets of the PAC. To go there we were supposed to get a car, we must get guns and then again to target the enemy of the PAC and get money so that we will be able to enhance the objectives of the PAC.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What information did you have that supports what you have just said that Mr Jacobs was a member of a right-wing organisation?

MR MOFOKENG: Well I didn't have concrete facts to that regard to verify as to whether he was a member but from Monde I learned that Mr Jacobs was a member of the right-wing organisation. He knew the house. From where we left we went straight to Mr Jacobs' house which means he had knowledge about him and his place.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now Mr Mofokeng, can I refer you to the bundle of press clippings, that's bundle B and page 1 of that bundle? Now if you look at page 1 you will see that Mr Jacobs was Chief Executive of a large corporation known as Foodcor, it's a big business. You didn't know that, did you?

MR MOFOKENG: No I did not know, I did not know where he was employed, I knew only that he was a member of the right-wing organisation.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now if you have a look at the second column of that article, it's an article entitled "The Giant of Foodcor" and it's an article written after Mr Jacobs was murdered. The eighth line of the second column, do you have that? There's a paragraph and I'm going to read it to you and ask you whether you can dispute this:

Can you deny that?

MR MOFOKENG: I would not dispute about what is written, it is the view of that person or the writer. It's not what Monde told me, that he was a manager of the Foodcorp. He told me that he was a member of the right-wing organisation. I was not told what you have just read.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Jacobs was involved in the food industry, he was a prominent businessman in South Africa, he was not involved in politics. Can you dispute that?

MR MOFOKENG: I would not dispute of what you're saying. What I would dispute is that I did not know Mr Jacobs and his movements and his political affiliation. I was told that he was a member of the right-wing organisation therefore he was an enemy of the PAC.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What investigations did you made to determine whether Mr Jacobs was a member of a right-wing organisation?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking "you" singular or plural?

MR VAN DEN BERG: You singular, Mr Chairperson.

MR MOFOKENG: I did not do any investigations or did not verify. What I wanted was to be trained, militarily. I had no purpose to investigate. What I knew is that right-wing members were oppressors of the Black South Africans.

MR VAN DEN BERG: But you had no personal knowledge that Mr Jacobs was a member of a right-wing organisation, none whatsoever?

MR MOFOKENG: No I don't have personal knowledge that he's a member of the right-wing organisation. I don't have evidence, what I know is that Mr Jacobs was a target of the PAC.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When did you first meet Monde Gadebe?

MR MOFOKENG: I met him in June 1993.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And were you in regular contact with him from June 1993 onwards?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes we used to meet. We used to meet together with Kopane.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You heard me put it to your co-applicant that according to two Senior police officers, Gadebe was involved in a series of criminal activities during December and January. December 1993 and January 1994. You have no personal knowledge of that, do you?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I did.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you to the bundle B and page 2? The third item is an armed robbery which took place at Sterkspruit, do you have personal knowledge of that?

MR MOFOKENG: No I don't have knowledge.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The fourth item is the murder of two farmers on the 24th December at Van Stadensrus, a Mr Wilkin and Mr Bekker, do you have personal knowledge of that?

MR MOFOKENG: No I don't.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I presume the only items that you have any personal knowledge of are the murder of Mr Jacobs and the armed robbery of the Stanton family?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you cannot comment, you cannot confirm or deny that Gadebe was involved in other acts of criminality?

MR MOFOKENG: I wouldn't say he was involved in criminality activities. Why I say that, because he was a cadre and in terms of my knowledge and my experience encountered with him, there was a process which was saying we should overthrow the white domination therefore Monde in his political activities was pursuing that objective.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you testified earlier that you were aware of a cease fire or of a moratorium on violence by APLA and the PAC. Did I understand you correctly?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, I said so.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And yet after that moratorium, you were involved in two acts of violence?

MR MOFOKENG: I want to put it this way, my involvement in these two incidents, I wanted to go for training, I would not be able to go to training without going with Monde, therefore I should do everything which Monde instructed me to do so that I'll be able to go for training. As the armed struggle was suspended in 1994 according to my knowledge they would not just say let us suspend the armed struggle and then it starts immediately. I want to make an example that in 1994 there were elections and then the people said apartheid is gone. I was trying to say therefore, that when they said the armed struggle is suspended, we should lay arms, we did not lay arms immediately when it was announced, it went within stages, step by step until at the end of the day the armed struggle was really suspended in reality therefore was never - never existed in the country thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on this point Mr van den Berg?

Why did you have such a passion to be trained so late in the day, if I could put it that way, you knew that there was a moratorium or a cease fire, you knew that the elections were a matter of three months away and I'm sure everybody, most people at that stage believed that the elections would certainly be the ending of organised violence between the political movements in the country. Why then did you have this great passion to be trained so late and at that stage of the political development?

MR MOFOKENG: At the time when I wanted to go for training, my problem was that I did not trust that whites want peace in South Africa. During the CODESA negotiations and those which came thereafter, the right-wing invaded the World Trade Centre and stopped negotiations there. It's then that I was convinced that whites are not prepared that there should be peace in South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I look at your amnesty application, that's page 2 of the bundle, paragraph 9(a)iv. You state there:

Do you confirm that?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now I want to suggest to you that that is not what Mr Nkabinde told this Committee. If I understand Mr Nkabinde's evidence correctly, the purpose of the - you use the word operation - was for repossession, was to obtain arms. Can you explain why there's a difference?

MR MOFOKENG: There's no difference between the two statements. To go there, we were going to look for arms and look for a car and money and again Mr Diederick Jacobs. Nkabinde said we were going to look for arms, it doesn't mean that after we got those arms we should leave, we should leave PAC's target behind.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You obtained arms and you took money from the Jacobs family, why didn't you then go to the Transkei?

MR MOFOKENG: Whilst we were at Jacobs house, when he tried to run he touched a button, maybe it was for secret reasons because we heard alarms outside which said to us that we are not able to take the car so that we'll be able to go to Transkei, so the mission was aborted because of that particular reason on that day. Then we stayed until the following day. On the third day we started with the second operation to look for transport.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Right, we'll get to the second operation shortly. Why didn't you kill Mrs Jacobs and the young woman that you found there, Heloise Jacobs?

MR MOFOKENG: There was no order that Mr Stanton was a member of the right-wing organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think the question was why didn't you kill the rest of the Jacobs family, not the Stanton family. The question was why didn't you kill the wife and the children of Mr Jacobs?

MR MOFOKENG: Monde said Diederick Jacobs is a target so I know in politics that we won't all belong to the same organisation if we are from the same family.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I want to suggest to you that Mr Jacobs was killed because when he was confronted by you, he shouted to his wife, he said to his wife "get a gun", that's why you killed him?

MR MOFOKENG: It is not like that. When he said bring the gun, where were we at the time? What I want to add again, I want to inform you that the person who was close to Mr Jacobs was myself together with her child. It was Heloise and the father and myself. I don't know when did he say that.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr van den Berg, can I just clarify something here please?

Mr Mofokeng, was there a meeting, a planning meeting before you went out on this first operation?

MR MOFOKENG: Before we left I had promises which I had received from Monde that he will take me for military training therefore there was a day where I met with Kopane and Thabang and Monde. We met.

ADV BOSMAN: And did you attend a meeting where the first applicant was also present, before you went out, did you also meet with the first applicant?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it at this meeting that you were told that Mr Jacobs is a right-wing member?

MR MOFOKENG: No.

ADV BOSMAN: At what stage were you told that Mr Jacobs was a target because he belongs to the right-wing?

MR MOFOKENG: In the morning of that day of the incident I was together with Monde. I knew, I was with him only.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If we move to the armed robbery involving the Stantons. If we have a look at paragraph 11 of Exhibit A, that's the affidavit by Mr Nkabinde, is it correct that you were armed with a shotgun?

MR MOFOKENG: Do you mean when we went to Stanton's place? Yes I had a gun but I don't remember what kind of a gun it was.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Was it a handgun, was it a rifle, what was it?

MR MOFOKENG: It was a handgun, sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So then what Mr Nkabinde says here that you were armed with a shotgun, that's incorrect?

MR MOFOKENG: Can you please explain the difference between the two?

CHAIRPERSON: A shotgun is usually a rifle and it shoots cartridges as opposed to bullets.

MR MOFOKENG: It was a handgun therefore.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Where did you get the handgun from?

MR MOFOKENG: It came from Diederick Jacobs house.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Between the time that you murdered Mr Jacobs and committed an armed robbery at the Jacobs' house and at the time when the armed robbery was committed at the Stanton's residence, did you receive any training in the use of that handgun?

MR MOFOKENG: No.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So you had absolutely no idea how it worked?

MR MOFOKENG: I knew how you can operate a gun.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Presumably like me, you had seen it on television?

MR MOFOKENG: No, not that way. From 1976 we had riots in Soweto. At times there were many guns, where you would have friends who owned guns, then they would just show me how to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not very difficult, Mr van den Berg, I'm not a shotist but if you know how to get the safety catch off then don't you just have to pull the trigger? I mean it's not very complicated.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm in your hands, Mr Chairperson, I've absolutely no idea.

At the Stanton residence, if I understand correctly, you were in the lounge when Mrs Stanton and one of her daughters was, where you tied them up, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Who brought the young boy into the lounge?

MR MOFOKENG: That's myself.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you were the person who assaulted him?

MR MOFOKENG: I did not assault him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you to the bundle of documents, page 47?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's a question - when you say you didn't assault him, you didn't hit him or beat him? Because I think if I was lying asleep in bed and somebody came and picked me up and carried me to the lounge, I would consider that an assault? Did you do nothing else but other than to carry him, make him walk?

MR MOFOKENG: At Stanton's child, I was inside the yard. When I returned in the house, I heard that boy screaming and he was alone and it was dark. Then quickly for to relieve him I should bring him closer to his or her parents, so I took that boy next to his parents, from the bedroom to the lounge.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Was the boy threatened in any way?

MR MOFOKENG: According to my observation the person who was in the house was not able to handle that situation so what I did, I decided to take the child and bring him closer to the parents.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I refer you to the bundle of documents, page 47, this is an extract of the criminal trial of the judgment in your criminal trial and here the following appears:

Do you know about that?

MR MOFOKENG: I know nothing about that, sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You were not the person who tied him up?

MR MOFOKENG: That's not myself, sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: We have reference again to your amnesty application, on page 5 of the application, paragraph 10(c). To the question which is asked there:

The answer is "no". do you see that?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If you refer to Exhibit A and that's the affidavit of Mr Nkabinde, paragraph 10, the portion there says:

Do you see that? That was after the Jacobs murder.

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then paragraph 16, the first two lines:

Do you see that? Is that correct? Everything that you took you gave to Monde?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct that we handed everything to the commander except the watch, it belonged to one of the victims.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The watch and you kept that for yourself?

MR MOFOKENG: The reason for not handing over the watch to the commander at that time, when we offloaded at Kopane's house, there was a person who was watching outside. The car which was outside was a 16 valve Conquest and the Mercedes Benz parked and it's a new one and then in that yard the value of those cars did not suit to be parked next to the place and the police were passing through. Therefore the person who was outside came to report that the police were there, then therefore we had to get inside the cars so that we'll be able to leave. The police would not just leave the Mercedes Benz in that kind of a yard.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's that got to do about with keeping the watch?

MR MOFOKENG: When I took the watch from the owner I had my watch on my arms then I put that watch on my other hand, then when we were busy offloading, when the person came to report that the police parked at the fourth house, I left everything there, then I entered into the car and I forgot about the watch until we were arrested.

MR VAN DEN BERG: After you were arrested, you pointed out certain things to the police, do you recall that? Inter alia you took them to Kopane's house?

MR MOFOKENG: When I was arrested, the reason for me to go with the police to my place and Kopane's house, it was because I wanted a bail application then they told me that they will not give me a bail application if they don't know where I stay, then I had to direct them everywhere where I went with them and then we immediately arrived they would start searching the property.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Where were the goods offloaded, Mr Mofokeng?

MR MOFOKENG: We offloaded at Kopane's house.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And so it's correct then if you look at page 50 of the bundle of documents and about line 19 of that page

"and there accused number one"

that's yourself

"pointed out a distinctive pink Blaupunkt radio identified by the Stantons as theirs."

Do you see that?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I do. I want to put it this way, Brixton wanted to know where Kopane was staying. When they arrived at Kopane's place they took a radio which belonged to Kopane's family and they made it an exhibit.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that this pink radio referred to here on page 50 was Kopane's radio or some relative of Kopane's?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, it belonged to Kopane's family. For them to take the tape, they explained that this doesn't belong to anybody else but belongs to his family.

ADV MOTATA: Just there - but further, Mr Mofokeng, if you read, it says a pink Blaupunkt radio shown at Exhibit F6 and identified by the Stantons as theirs.

MR MOFOKENG: I wanted to ask as to whether when they identified that that radio is theirs, where did they identify that radio because it was not taken to court.

ADV MOTATA: You can take it from there, Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It seems to me, Mr Mofokeng, that this was one of the findings in your trial that in fact that radio belonged to the Stantons.

CHAIRPERSON: But it also had an exhibit number, you say it wasn't at court?

MR MOFOKENG: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you don't know where this Exhibit F6 comes from? Shown on exhibit - no that's right.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I don't think I can take it very much further, Mr Chairperson.

When I was cross-examining Mr Nkabinde, I advised him that I consulted with Mr Tjitja who is a prisoner at the Zonderwater prison, do you remember that?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now initially Mr Tjitja denied any involvement in these two acts, he said that he had merely got a lift with Gadebe and yourself to the Transkei, he knew nothing about the attack on the Jacobs house and the armed robbery at the Stanton house. Now you can't comment on that because you don't know what he told me. When I advised him that you and Mr Nkabinde had applied for amnesty, he then advised me that he was in fact involved in these two acts, that he was not a member of APLA, that he had not received any military training and that as far as he was concerned, this was an act of criminality. He was going to share in the proceeds of these two acts. Can you comment on that?

MR MOFOKENG: I'll not say much about Thabang because firstly I don't know him and as I don't know him, what he said to you, firstly he told a lie then you take the second statement as true. I don't know what to say in that regard. Firstly you asked him then he denied taking part, then you asked him for the second time then he agreed. Therefore I don't know as to whether you accept the first lie or the second lie.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mofokeng, how did Thabang become part of the group of five? When did you meet him for the first time?

MR MOFOKENG: I met him for the first time on that day when we went to Monde. It was myself, Thabang, all of us, the five of us. As to whether he was a member or not a member I did not know because I was a supporter and I was part of that group. I did not know as to whether there were other members or supporters of the PAC in that group.

ADV MOTATA: Did you know where Thabang lived?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I did.

ADV MOTATA: Where is that?

MR MOFOKENG: That is Central.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Well you say that Tjitja then told me two lies but you confirm that he was involved?

CHAIRPERSON: What he's saying is that Tjitja told you two conflicting versions and he doesn't know which one you accept to be lie and which one you accept to be the truth.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Well can I put it to you this way, Mr Mofokeng, one of the criteria to qualify for amnesty is that you make full disclosure. You're aware of that?

MR MOFOKENG: May you please repeat your question sir?

MR VAN DEN BERG: One of the things that you need to do to qualify for amnesty is that you must make full disclosure, you must tell this Committee all the facts that you know about.

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I do, I do know.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And one of the facts is that Tjitja was involved in these incidents?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I just find it strange that a person who is not an APLA member, not an APLA cadre, is involved in an act like this? I want to suggest to you that this an act of pure criminality. Do you want to comment?

MR MOFOKENG: You can take it that way that it was a criminal act because you have the right to do so because you did not know as to when I met Monde what did I want.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg. Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you.

Mr Jacobs you said he belonged to the right-wing organisation. Which organisation was that?

MR MOFOKENG: I don't know which organisation which he belonged but according to the information I received, when they speak of a person who is a member of the right-wing organisation, that is Conservative Party and AWB, so I didn't know as to whether which one of the two he belonged.

MR MOFOKENG: You say when the speak of a person belonging to a right-wing organisation that is Conservative Party? I didn't get you clearly I sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: He said the Conservative Party or the AWB, but he's not sure which one he belonged, he says when he talks about right-wing, what he considers right-wing is Conservative Party or AWB?

ADV MPSHE: I see, thank you Mr Chairman.

I take it that this operation was carried out by yourselves as a unit?

MR MOFOKENG: ...(inaudible) because when we went there we were a unit.

ADV MPSHE: And you heard me put a question to Nkabinde as to what was the code name of your unit. He couldn't assist us. Can you assist us?

MR MOFOKENG: I would not tell a lie, I don't know the code name of that particular unit.

ADV MPSHE: For how long were you a member of this unit?

MR MOFOKENG: It was for the first time on the incident of the Jacob's incident and then it was for a second time during the Stanton incident.

ADV MPSHE: So this operation was your first operation inside the unit?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes that is correct.

ADV MPSHE: Your commander I think it was said to be Monde Gadebe, he was a commander not so?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: Before you could get yourself involved in this unit did he explain to you what the unit was all about, what are you looking for?

MR MOFOKENG: No sir, he did not tell you anything.

ADV MPSHE: He just co-opted you and he said now we are going to carry out an operation?

MR MOFOKENG: I explained earlier that I asked Monde, I requested Monde that I wanted to go for military training. When I'd requested him about going for military training I did not ...(indistinct) to him or I did not expect him to take me to Diederick Jacobs house. I wanted to go for military training so before I underwent military training we went through Jacobs incident before - these two operations before I could go to military training.

ADV MPSHE: Would you say this operation was an APLA operation?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I will say so.

ADV MPSHE: How far had you gone to school? Your highest standard or qualification?

MR MOFOKENG: Standard 7. I was not able to go further in my studies.

ADV MPSHE: Would you understand the difference between defensive and offensive?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I do.

ADV MPSHE: Good. Now was APLA an offensive or defensive unit?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean army?

ADV MPSHE: APLA Mr Chairman, APLA as the liberation movement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think because APLA consisted of hundreds of units and I think to refer to APLA as a unit is a bit misleading, it was an army.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Was APLA a defensive or offensive structure?

MR MOFOKENG: In terms of my knowledge and observation, APLA was an organisation which was fighting for the return of the land to the rightful owners by the whites. Therefore APLA was against those people who robbed us of the land.

ADV MPSHE: Do you want me to repeat the question?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes sir.

ADV MPSHE: Was APLA as a structure within PAC an offensive or a defensive structure?

MR MOFOKENG: I would say it was an offensive organisation because APLA's acts were those of attacking the enemy.

ADV MPSHE: What was the "year of the great storm" all about, what was to be done, what was declared when in 1993 you said that now we're entering the year of the great storm? What did that entail?

MR MOFOKENG: I don't have any in depth knowledge about that but the operation great storm, when Sabelo Palma informed us about that he was telling us that the situation is going to be bad.

ADV MPSHE: Made bad by whom and how?

MR MOFOKENG: By APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Mpshe, the witness has said that he didn't really know too much about the PAC, he was a supporter but he had little knowledge, in his own words, so now whether he does or doesn't know what the great storm was, not too much is going to swing on it because of his own admission that he knew very little. He said he was a supporter and wanted to get military training but he didn't know much about the organisation.

ADV MPSHE: I agree very much Mr Chairman and I didn't intend to make any follow up, I was satisfied with his answer, Mr Chairman, I agree.

Finally, Mr Mofokeng, will you tell us what APLA means, the meaning of the words A-P-L-A?

MR MOFOKENG: Do you mean when I say the whole - it stands for? African Peoples Liberation Army.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MR MOFOKENG: I beg your pardon, Azanian Peoples Liberation Army.

ADV MPSHE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I don't want to interrupt unduly, there was one question I neglected to ask and I thought it would only be fair if I asked it?

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you could ask it now before re-examination it would be more convenient.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Mofokeng, you said that at both the incidents at the Jacobs home and at the incident at the Stanton home, the victims were told this was an APLA attack. Do you remember that?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now I put it to you that that was never said to them, they were never advised that you were members of APLA and that this was an attack carried out by APLA?

MR MOFOKENG: When victims say that they were not informed that it's an APLA attack, I wanted to know as to whether how did they know it is APLA because they knew that it was APLA which attacked there?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, I don't intend to debate it with the applicant. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, only a few which arise from, regarding accused number three who has not applied for amnesty.

Were you at any stage during your, after your arrest, come to your knowledge that accused number three was an APLA cadre?

CHAIRPERSON: That's Thabang?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you.

MR MOFOKENG: No, I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying to this Committee that it never even transpired during the trial that there's an allegation that he's an APLA cadre, you never heard about that?

MR MOFOKENG: No. In court the way they gave evidence because we were together with Monde and Monde was a trained APLA member. We were going to Transkei to be trained, that is the way it was stated in court. I would say that in papers or in newspapers it transpired that a highly trained APLA cadre was arrested on his way to - around Bloemfontein.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Just for completeness Mr Chairperson, page 20 of the bundle, third paragraph from the top. I just want to read out, I would like you to comment on that:

CHAIRPERSON: What line would it be more or less?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, more or less starting from line 19.

CHAIRPERSON: 19 yes, that's on page 20?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Page 20, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: My line 19 says "the version of accused number three was put to Tiedt"

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson, that's what I want to read:

I take it was the investigating officer or policeman involved that he alleged that - then I'll read as it is in the judgment:

Did you at any stage hear that during the trial?

MR MOFOKENG: When Thabang was speaking about Section 29, I was threatened with Section 29. When he testified about Section 29, the police said to him they will put him under Section 29 if he does not co-operate with them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mofokeng, what I wanted to know, did it come to your knowledge at that particular stage that he alleges that he was a member of APLA?

MR MOFOKENG: No, I don't know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I won't take it any further. The other point I would like, although it is not arising Mr Chairperson, but for the completeness of this matter I would like it, to canvassss, maybe he can be asked, the other members will ask about it.

When you were going to Transkei what happened to the items that you repossessed, put it from the two families, Jacobs and - with the exception of the motor vehicles and other items which were found during the accident? What happened, we have heard that the Toyota Corolla was dumped somewhere. What happened to the other items, T.V., Hi-Fi if I'm not mistaken, quite a number of them. Do you know what happened to those items?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I know what happened to it. That property was taken by Brixton because it was put together at Kopane's house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying that it was found at Kopane's house, all those goods that you took from the two families?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes it was found at Kopane's house, then I want the Committee to understand it this way, Kopane stays at Molatani. Where the property was found was where Kopane was renting. When I say that it was found at Kopane's house I mean it is where he rented a room there so it was found at Kopane's house where he was renting.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, if I may follow up, I wouldn't like to abuse this chance.

CHAIRPERSON: You can follow up, I'll give the other's a chance to ask questions on this new point.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did Monde tell you what is going to be done by these repossessed items?

MR MOFOKENG: No he did not tell me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You also, you didn't ask about them?

MR MOFOKENG: As I said before, when I testified, I have little knowledge about PAC and APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you ask him what was going to happen with the items that were taken?

MR MOFOKENG: I did not ask him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But as your evidence, what you know is that you went there because you wanted a motor vehicle to go to Transkei, when you went to Mr Jacobs house, the first incident?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you did not manage to get it because they pressed alarm buttons, that's why you went to Mr Stanton's house on the 18th?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct, sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr van den Berg, do you have any questions arising out of this last point raised by Mr Mbandazayo which wasn't really re-examination?

MR VAN DEN BERG: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Just one Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mofokeng, part of the loot was found at Kopane's place and the other, that is the jewellery and other things were found in the possession of Mr Nkabinde, after the accident in Bloemfontein. Am I correct?

MR MOFOKENG: No it's not like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkabinde said that after the accident certain of the stolen goods were recovered in his possession. He had a jacket, a lumber jacket and he had certain pieces of jewellery which he says was in the pocket of the jacket, that's what Mr Nkabinde said, at Smithfield?

MR MOFOKENG: He said on the lumber jacket he wore had some jewellery inside. I agree with him.

ADV MPSHE: Would you agree with me then if I say there was already a division of the loot, it was not kept at one place or given to one person?

MR MOFOKENG: I dispute that sir. I dispute that because of the following reason. If you say the part of the loot, the loot was divided it means the police were supposed to get something from me or from each of us, so it was found in - at Kopane's house only.

ADV MPSHE: No, no, no, it's not Kopane's house only. Mr Nkabinde, as the Chair has explained to you, testified that part of the jewellery and other things were found in his possession when he had the jacket on and he said further on this jacket belonged to Monde, it was given to him when he was cold. Now this was at two different places.

CHAIRPERSON: And it must have therefore have been in the vehicle because he only asked for it once the journey had commenced.

ADV MPSHE: That's correct Mr Chairman, it was never only at Kopane it was two different places.

MR MOFOKENG: I thought you're asking about various places, that it was found at various places or within houses, various houses that at my place and other people's places, some part of the loot was found. I thought you're asking that way.

ADV MPSHE: Would you then agree after understanding what I am saying that there was a division of the loot?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I agree with what you say now.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV MOTATA: I have none Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

When did you leave school? How old were you? How old were you when you left school?

MR MOFOKENG: I don't remember well when I - how old I was when I left school.

ADV BOSMAN: Approximately?

MR MOFOKENG: I think I was 17, about 17 years old.

ADV BOSMAN: And at the time of the incident, how old were you then?

MR MOFOKENG: I was 28 years old at the time.

ADV BOSMAN: And when did you develop this interest in politics?

MR MOFOKENG: I'd say in 1991, somewhere there.

ADV BOSMAN: And what political activities did you participate in?

MR MOFOKENG: I did not play any role or take any part in political activity, I would only support PAC.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you for the first time become interested in the PAC?

MR MOFOKENG: It was around 1991. During the time of Zeph Mothopeng.

ADV BOSMAN: Had you lived in Johannesburg all that time, in the area, in Johannesburg area?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now during which years was the political activity of the young people at it's height in the Johannesburg area, during which period?

MR MOFOKENG: I know about 1976/1977, around there.

ADV BOSMAN: Now I wonder if you could just explain why there was no interest shown by you until 1991 when you were quite a mature person? Only then did you develop this passion for being trained as a military cadre. Why was that, what triggered it?

MR MOFOKENG: Around 1976 I knew what was happening around me and as I knew what was happening, there was nobody next to ...(indistinct) any light about politics or who will take me for military training, I did not know anybody.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you live in a township?

MR MOFOKENG: I was living in a township.

ADV BOSMAN: And there was nobody you knew who would perhaps assist you in getting military training and to get you out of the country or to tell you about contacts, no one at all?

MR MOFOKENG: There was nobody whom I was close, whom I discussed with him or give him reasons why I have an urge to go for military training. At the time I did not know anything about PAC and ANC or any other political organisation which was for liberation.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know on what date or what year the present President of the country was released from prison? When was Mr Nelson Mandela released?

MR MOFOKENG: If I'm not mistaken, it was in 1990 or 1991, that's when he was released.

ADV BOSMAN: Now was that not the stage in South Africa when people started to think well at least now we are going in the right direction, apart from the right-wing?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, that was the time but I explained before that there was - word had come from President Makwetu that people should ...(indistinct) to vote and then before Sabelo Palma said that there's going to be Operation Great Storm.

There were people who wanted to go for elections and there were those who were not prepared to go for elections.

ADV BOSMAN: Just in conclusion, you say your passion for the military developed after the release of the present State President and after negotiations had started, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: No. After AWB disturbed the negotiations at the World Trade Centre, that is where I saw that white people are not prepared that there should be peace in South Africa. That is what made me ...(indistinct) to go for military training.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did at that stage, where did Monde live?

MR MOFOKENG: I don't know where he was staying.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you used to get to meet him regularly and speak to him regularly during the period June '93 until the occurrence of these incidents in January? You said you met him regularly and used to meet with him?

MR MOFOKENG: My friend is Kopane. One day when I visited Kopane, I found him together with Monde. They were discussing political issues, then with the bit I had I contributed. That is where Monde explained to me in full about the political realities in our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you hand all the loot, save for the watch that you forgot about, to Monde?

MR MOFOKENG: In terms of my knowledge, the commander is a senior of a particular group. That is the person who is responsible for every issue or for every property which has been found anywhere as a commander he is responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you think of any reason why the commander would then have left the greater proportion of the loot, the T.V's, the electrical appliances etc at the rented premises of somebody who is not a member of APLA or the PAC who he's taking down to Transkei for training for no doubt a lengthy period of time?

MR MOFOKENG: As Kopane was a supporter of the PAC, therefore Monde had to trust in him, that is why he did that.

CHAIRPERSON: No but what I'm saying is, wasn't Kopane with you in the car going for training to Transkei?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes he was present in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Which means that Kopane was going to be away from the place where he stayed, not his home, the place which he rented, the room which he rented, for a long period of time?

MR MOFOKENG: I would say that.

CHAIRPERSON: So why leave the loot in that room where it would no doubt be most vulnerable when the landlord could probably could get access to it at any time, you don't know when you're going to go back to it? Why leave it there? Do you have any idea? If you don't just tell me.

MR MOFOKENG: That place is not in a house, it was a shack house within the yard so he was staying in a separate house therefore Kopane was staying with his wife. Then what I would say that in their absence the wife, Kopane's wife would take care of the property or of the loot.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know of any reason why the loot wasn't taken in the vehicles that were on there way to Transkei or at least the Mercedes which was going through to Transkei?

MR MOFOKENG: No I have no knowledge or reason.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left to go to Transkei, is it correct that Monde and Nkabinde, the first applicant, were in the Mercedes and you, Thabang and the fifth member were in the Toyota?

MR MOFOKENG: I remember that I was in - there was a Conquest and there was a Mercedes Benz. I don't remember well as to whether in which car I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the first applicant says you were in the Toyota, the Conquest.

MR MOFOKENG: I would say that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what happened to the Conquest?

MR MOFOKENG: On the road we found the Mercedes Benz waiting for us on the road. Then Monde and he informed us that we should get out of the Conquest and go inside the Mercedes Benz.

CHAIRPERSON: So where about was the Conquest left? Because what we've heard, you must have heard it yourself, it could have been in two different places. Where about was it, can you describe the place where it was left?

MR MOFOKENG: It's not far from the tollgate. After passing the tollgate, just a distance after that. What I remember is a tollgate then there is a place because it was dark, there's a place after the tollgate, that's where we left the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Who drove the Toyota? Did you drive it?

MR MOFOKENG: No, it was driven by Thabang.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Thabang also going to Transkei for training?

MR MOFOKENG: No Chairperson, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we see from the affidavit from the first applicant when we're talking about the incident that occurred in Parkview, the Stanton's home, where he said that you were armed with a shotgun and you said "no I had a handgun". Did you see a shotgun, was anybody armed with a firearm other than a handgun, with a rifle type of firearm?

MR MOFOKENG: We had guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Handguns?

MR MOFOKENG: Handguns.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of the questions being put by the panel?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I have no questions really arising but I would like Mr Chairperson to give me another opportunity for the sake of truth, go to the truth of the whole thing. I'm sorry to ...(indistinct) my learned friend that side, also the Committee, I'll pick up something which I thought that I'd raised earlier on. At page 48, Mr Chairperson, of the bundle, judgment. I'll think it will be starting from line 6. I'm reading:

Now my first question would be, did you have any money with you when you went to Transkei and if you had money, how much money did you have and where did you get it?

MR MOFOKENG: The money I had on my person, I don't remember whether it was R100 or R110.

MR MOFOKENG: Where did you get the money?

MR MOFOKENG: That is the money I took from the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let me interpose, Mr Mbandazayo, at that time January '94, were you employed at all? Did you have a job?

MR MOFOKENG: No, I was doing part time jobs.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So when you say that the money that you took from the house are you meaning the Jacobs or Stanton's house or from your home?

MR MOFOKENG: I requested that money at home.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now next point is, Mrs Pansi's saying that you asked her to phone home so that everything should be removed, whatever is in your home. What do you say to that and she passed that information on to the police?

MR MOFOKENG: Who is that person you are talking about?

MR MBANDAZAYO: The nurse in the hospital at Smithfield. Mrs Pansi was a nurse.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it's just been read out to you, this is the nurse, a Mrs Pansi at the Smithfield Hospital where you were and she said that you asked her to telephone your home and to leave a message and say that they must remove everything from the house?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you - sorry Mr Chair - were you not accused number one in the trial?

MR MOFOKENG: Accused number one was Monde.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Monde at the trial? When did Monde die?

MR MOFOKENG: The accused number one was Monde then I became the first accused after Monde has died.

CHAIRPERSON: This document, this is contained in the judgment, if you look at page 14 where you described as being accused number one, Michael Mofokeng and Nkabinde is number two and Tjitja is number three and in this following judgment, one, two and three you refer to those people, namely you and Nkabinde and Tjitja, nothing to do with Monde.

So now this nurse says, said at the trial that you spoke to her and said "look, phone my home, leave a message there and tell them to take everything out of the house." Now what Mr Mbandazayo is asking you is, did that happen, did she say that?

MR MOFOKENG: That is not true because what I had explained about the ...(indistinct) is that if at home we didn't have a phone in 1994.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, I'll go to page 63. You told the Committee that you did not know where Monde was staying, am I correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said that in a response to a question put by myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman. Did you know where Thabang was staying?

MR MOFOKENG: Maybe I did not put it through correctly. The person whom I knew is Kopane. Then Kopane is the one who introduced me to Monde. Then I later knew where Monde was staying and then and even where Thabang Tjitja was staying. He rented a house at Thabang's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not understand my question when I asked you did you know where Monde lived?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes I did not understand correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think I was trying to elicit from you when I asked you where he lived, how did you misunderstand that question?

MR MOFOKENG: I ask for forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say he rented a place where Thabang stayed, but where was that? Where about?

MR MOFOKENG: It was at Central.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say Central you mean Johannesburg?

MR MOFOKENG: Around Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Soweto.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it has been answered, I was going to refer to that at page 63 because it appears that Monde was renting, that I was driving that, he has already answered that. Thank you Mr Chairperson, that's what I wanted to raise.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr van den Berg do you have any questions arising, also arising out of the latest questions put by Mr Mbandazayo?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Just to take it one step further, if you have a reference to page 43 of the bundle of documents, the third line, Mr Mofokeng. You remember earlier you explained to us about the watch that was found in your possession? That was on page 42, if you look on page 43?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The third line says:

Did you forget about that watch as well?

MR MOFOKENG: I want to explain. This statement is wrong which is put by Mr van den Berg. I explained that I had my own watch then Lindy's watch was on the other hand so it was my watch together with Lindy's watch, not that all those watches we took them from the place.

CHAIRPERSON: He's saying that when you were travelling in those motor vehicles going towards Transkei you had two watches in your possession, your own watch and one of the watches that you got from the Stantons' house, not three?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes there were two.

ADV MOTATA: No, but Mr van den Berg, look at that section closing:

"A chain identified by Heloise Jacobs as being belonging

MR VAN DEN BERG: Through you, Mr Chairperson, page 42 deals with - let me just find the reference - there's a reference earlier to a watch which belonged to a Mr Andrew Kirk which was found in the possession of accused number one who is the applicant here and then on page 43 there's then a reference to a further watch found in the presence of accused number one which is the watch belonging to Lindy Stanton. There are three watches that he had on his person.

ADV MOTATA: I was looking at the wrong page, I beg your pardon.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions arising?

ADV MPSHE: I have no questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mofokeng, that then concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that's the evidence for the applicants, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, I'm of the view that there's sufficient evidence before you to determine this matter. I don't intend to call any of the victims or to call either of the police officers to whom reference was made. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: No evidence to lead Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you gentlemen in a position to argue?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: No Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, just to clarify that I, in such instance where there's a lawyer ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you prefer not to but I always give you the opportunity, you might want to make something that you feel was important.

ADV MPSHE: It's appreciated Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to proceed right now Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes Mr Chairperson, I'll start now. Mr Chairperson, I wouldn't like to bore you with my argument expect to say that as I was asking many times, go and refer back to the evidence, I wanted to canvassss almost every aspect, I wanted to canvass so that this Committee can be in a position to reach a fair decision regarding this matter.

Mr Chairperson, it's my submission that this Committee has been placed with enough evidence before itself to reach a fair decision without myself adding anything in this matter. I'm therefore leaving it to the hands of the Committee. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

The criteria for the granting of amnesty is set out in Section 20 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act of 1995. It seems to me, Mr Chairperson, that the applications themself comply with the requirements.

CHAIRPERSON: The technical - are you referring to Section 21(a) that is the three points, yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The technical requirements, that is correct. However, Mr Chairperson, I would submit that no political motive has been made out in this matter.

...(inaudible) and two, where they need to show they are a member or supporter of a publicly known political organisation or liberation movement. Mr Nkabinde was not able to tell this Committee details of crucial figures in the structure of the PAC and the structure of APLA. He was asked questions by Mr Mpshe to which he gave answers and the answers were wrong.

Mr Mofokeng, realising that the trap had been set, said he was merely a supporter of the PAC. Yet in response to questions by a member of the panel, he could not explain what he had done between 1977 and 1991. There was no indication of political activity whatsoever.

ADV MOTATA: Mr van den Berg are you aware that the period you're referring to, for instance 1977, that he was a toddler, 12 years old, born 1965?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is so. That is so, but even during the height of the struggle in the 1980's when the townships were ablaze, there is no evidence of any sort.

I want to submit that the applicants cannot lift themselves up by their own bootstraps, there was no person on behalf of the PAC or on behalf of the APLA who has testified on their behalf to say that these are bona fide members or supporters of the PAC.

ADV MOTATA: Is that accession possible, Mr van den Berg, that with millions of people around that the APLA structure of PAC can pinpoint their supporters? I don't think that's a fair argument, can you?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, the other applications which I have been involved in have involved command structures, have involved an indication of where a particular unit was on the ground, how it was tasked, how it was trained. I accept that the applicants here have a difficulty in that their - the person they allege was their unit commander is dead, I accept that, but in response to questions about what kind of unit were they, there's reference made to repossession unit. I understand that there's been evidence before this Committee previously this week relating to repossession units and referring to them by different names. In any event, perhaps to take it further, it strikes me as highly unusual and highly improbable that a unit would comprise of five people who apparently are unknown to each other, there only seems to be one or two common threads. Both of the applicants are members of the unit through Monde, there is a link through Mofokeng and the deceased Kopane Tshabalala, but other than that they seem to be unknown to each other and it would seem that in what we know of these types of units, that there would need to be some form of trust, that there would be need to be some form of intimacy for security reasons and that they seemed to be a diverse group without any particular links to each other. I don't intend to take it any further than that, Mr Chairperson.

If one has reference to the acts themselves, there is a material contradiction I want to submit between the amnesty application of the applicant Mofokeng and the testimony which he seeks to embrace, given by Mr Nkabinde. His amnesty application is quite explicit, he says that Jacobs was identified as a target because he was a member of a right-wing organisation. Now the assertion that he is a member of a right-wing organisation he cannot substantiate and in Nkabinde's version is that they were out to get arms, to get money in support or in furtherance of the struggle.

The actions happened at a time when the PAC and APLA had declared a moratorium on violence. Both of the applicants agreed that they kept up with the daily happenings to the press, radio, television and newspapers. This thing of crucial significance in the history of the country passed them by, the moratorium and then later the cease fire.

ADV MOTATA: I have interest in the first incident because if we have regard to what Makwetu said in the newspaper and accepting it, that was on the 16th and he made the announcement the following day, the 17th.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It places - there may be an explanation for the first incident, for the murder of Dirk Jacobs. The explanation by Nkabinde, that explanation may hold some water but the continuance thereafter of the activities of this gang for political cause, there can be no weight attached to that.

ADV MOTATA: If for instance we say there is an announcement on the 17th that they have agreed, there's no way where I glean from the newspaper clippings that immediately all operatives were informed of that cease fire?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, I attempted to lay the foundations on the basis of what the applicants knew and what they kept up to date with, I accept that in the case of a genuine APLA unit and I'm not making the concession that this was an APLA, that in the case of a genuine APLA unit, with little or no access to modern telecommunications, it is possible that they may have continued with their activities for a period until such time as they were advised by their structures. I accept that but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think the situation is that if you had a situation where it was - where a unit was aware of a moratorium, even through the press, before it, one would expect it reasonable that before it would conduct an operation, having that knowledge, they would then get a direct order from somebody above in the hierarchy before they would conduct that operation.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I think if one has reference to the evidence, it's clear that both of these applicants were in possession of items taken from the two homes, there was jewellery, there was a sum of money, Mofokeng was in possession of two watches and the manner in which they have dealt with that, I want to suggest is disingenuous. It's clear, as Mr Mpshe put it to Mofokeng, that there had been a division of the spoils, of the loot.

The newspaper clippings suggest that Gadebe was involved in a series of criminal activities.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we can place too much emphasis on that, I mean we can't really accept newspaper reports as evidence.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Indeed so.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr van den Berg, perhaps you could then deal with the relevance of the two applicants' criminal records perhaps to the possible ...(inaudible)

MR VAN DEN BERG: ...(inaudible) Mofokeng was not asked about that but ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: One.

CHAIRPERSON: Just the one applicant I think, we've only got the record for one.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct. I understand that Mofokeng was the first defender, that's certainly what the press clippings suggest but insofar as Nkabinde is concerned, there are two previous convictions of armed robbery. One in 1979 and one in 1983 and they both involve - well the one involves a panga and the other involves knives.

ADV MOTATA: Let's be careful about that because if you look at the record it says date of conviction and not date of when the offence was committed. We should be careful when you come to that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes, knowing the criminal justice system, it's possible that these offences were committed some period before the actual dates of conviction and ...(intervention)

ADV MOTATA: I'm saying that you should look at it because he talks of 1978 and when we look at the date of conviction, it's early 1979. We should trample just a little lighter there but ....(inaudible) that is actually.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It's difficult to argue and one needs to argue carefully in respect of previous convictions but the suggestion here is that there was previous involvement in this type of activity and this type of criminal activity. The first armed robbery involves the paltry sum of R25. The second serious offence relates to the theft of a motor vehicle and then armed robbery of clothing, it would appear, "kleurasie besigheid", I don't know whether the value there of R2000 relates to the clothing or whether it was cash that was taken.

CHAIRPERSON: It usually refers to the value of the goods stolen so it probably relates to the value of the clothing taken from the business.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes. Now whilst the evidence is not before you, Tjitja, the third surviving member of the gang is also serving a period of imprisonment, a life sentence and he also has a previous conviction for armed robbery so I want to suggest that if one has reference to the manner in which these acts were carried out, if one has reference to the background of the - certainly of the first applicant, then these are acts of criminality.

If one has a look at what happened at the Jacobs' home, it would appear that Jacobs was shot only when he called out and when he asked for his wife to assist him by procuring a firearm. It seems that that was when he was shot. It goes further that, in that after Jacobs has been shot, he is then assaulted by the first applicants. When Jacobs requests medical assistance, he is assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you know, when you've got armed robbers in your house pointing guns at you and you ask to phone the ambulance or the police the chances of getting a positive answer are remote to say the least.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It's not so much the lack of a positive answer Mr Chairperson but the fact that further violence was then used, that's the submission.

In so far as the Stanton's are concerned, six people are tied up, a further person is lured into the house, that's Mr Kirk, he is then also tied up. There is - assault may be too strong a word, but there is certainly the physical manhandling of a six year old boy who is then tied up and then a great amount of goods are removed from the home. This apparently on the applicant's version was an operation to procure firearms and no firearms were found.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the Stanton's one they said the main aim, firearms was there as well, but was to get transport because they had to abort their earlier incident.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes. But there are four series of inconsistencies in what is said by the applicants and what is contained by the judgment by the judge who then presided, I think it was Mr Marais, Judge Marais. There is the fact that they are in possession of items taken from the home. I would submit that if one has reference to the motive, if one has reference to the context in which the act took place, bearing in mind Advocate Motata's reservations, if one has reference to the legal and factual nature of the act, the use of violence, the assault of a man who is fatally wounded, the assault of a six year old child, that these are not acts which can be clothed with political immunity.

There's further the criteria which requires that there must have been no personal gain and there is the evidence in respect of the money, the watches, the jewellery. And then the omission, for what it's worth, of a third applicant before this panel. I want to suggest Mr Chairperson, that the criteria as set out in Sections 20 sub 2 and sub 3, particularly with reference to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) sub section 3 now?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I simply want to wind up by saying that if one has reference to the criteria in Section 20, sub-section 2 and sub-section 3, particularly with reference to the sub-clause dealing with personal gain that these applicants do not qualify. This was an act of criminality and that in the circumstances their application should be refused and that they should see out the period of their imprisonment.

ADV MOTATA: I want to return to you and say, ask a few things which would clarify our minds. You've referred to the previous convictions and you mentioned that there was two of robbery and I say now taking into account the testimony before us that APLA or PAC's policy was repossession, as they referred to the robberies as repossession and quite honestly, because I want you to assist me, if we look at the document before us, it does not tell us who was robbed, it merely tells us of robbery.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now are you making reference to the previous convictions purely?

ADV MOTATA: Exhibit C.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Exhibit C. That is indeed so, there is no reference to specific incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Well though it would seem unlikely that the robbing of R25 in the Soweto with use of a panga would amount to an APLA repossession mission.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Well that case seems to have it's reference in Soweto, I'm precisely sure where in Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: The Magistrates Court was in Soweto.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes but there are both Protea and Orlando and one or two other police stations.

CHAIRPERSON: In that jurisdiction.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So it's in that jurisdiction and then the second seems to be in Springs but again it's difficult to tell, you know precisely where the actual incident took place but we have the theft of a motor vehicle, we have the armed robbery of clothing. I'm not sure that - well the motor vehicle I suppose there's an argument for but I don't know about the clothing. I would seem to me that if we're dealing with repossession, it's for purposes of equipping the army for the carrying out of it's activities. I doesn't seem to me that this is certainly what happened in respect of these two previous convictions but one is arguing from a piece of paper.

ADV MOTATA: And the last one is that the evidence before us is that they were on their way to Lesotho and that the Mercedes at the time ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Transkei.

ADV MOTATA: Transkei, I beg your pardon, to the Transkei and we look at the Exhibit B2 and we look at Smithfield is far from Johannesburg and all the two applicants, and both the two applicants are living Soweto, that if they wanted to enrich themselves, have personal gain, why go that far? Wouldn't that be something telling they were on their way somewhere, not suggesting it is Transkei, but were they not in a way going somewhere?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Except Mr Chairperson that they were in a stolen motor vehicle, having committed a murder and probably, I would suggest, wanted to make as much distance between themselves and the scene of the crime as they could. There was also, if my memory serves me correctly and I'm sure that the Chairperson has a more accurate recollection, there was also this business of whether the Transkei was still an independent State at that time and whether - the back of my memory says to me that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It was still at that stage.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It was still at that stage and there was a difficulty with the extradition of known criminals and known APLA cadres, so it may well have been that that was an easy place in which to hide.

ADV MOTATA: Just for information, Lesotho - I mean Transkei is the first country, so-called independent, to unban all political organisations and it was a hive of these liberation movements and in particular APLA, I mean PAC.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes, I understand so. I have no further submissions, Mr Chairperson.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mpshe are you making any submissions?

ADV MPSHE: No Mr Chairman thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any reply?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I wouldn't like to make any reply of that unless the Committee wants me to assist, well I'll do that, on any specific point I'll do that with pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no nothing in particular. Thank you.

That concludes the hearing, we'll hand down a written decision in this matter as soon as possible, we'll have to decide it and that also, Mr Mpshe, brings us to the end of our role for hearings at this venue, is that correct?

ADV MPSHE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we adjourn then, I would like to just thank everybody who made the hearings here possible this week. I'd like to thank the translators for the wonderful job that they've done, it was very arduous translating simultaneously. I would like to thank the sound technician, the television man, I would also like to thank Mrs Hendricks the caterer and those who assisted her, who spoilt us, fed us very well this week and I'd also like to thank Mr Jaftha who set this whole thing up, was involved in the logistics and the security provided here, I'd like to thank those people and I also, last but not least like to thank Mr Mpshe the evidence leader and Mr Mbandazayo who has appeared before us every day this week in various matters and I'd like to thank them for the professional manner in which they handled the matters. Thank you very much indeed, we'll then now adjourn and as I say a decision in this matter will be handed down in the near future.

Sorry Mr Mpshe, could you please give us a list of the victims?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman I was attempting to elicit this from my learned friend, he does not have the full particulars but he promised that he will write them down for me and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg would you please because we have to in terms of the Act when we make a decision, we've got to state that in our opinion the following persons are victims and we've got to stipulate them and if possible give an address, any address where they can be contactable and then we refer those names to the Reparations Committee for consideration in terms of Section 26.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we'll now adjourn.

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