--------------------------------------------------------------------------ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the first applicant this morning will be Mr Semi Bernard Mayisela. His application appears on page 157 in the bundle, Lusaka-A. 157, Lusaka-A, Mr Chairman, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you please to settle down, we want to start.

For the record, today is Thursday the 26th of November 1998. It is the continued sitting of the Amnesty Committee in respect of the Thokoza SDU applications.

The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record. We are proceeding to hear the matter of Mr Mayisela.

Mr Mayisela, can you please stand. Can you give your full names?

SEMI BERNARD MAYISELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mayisela, you are an applicant applying for amnesty for the activities that occurred at Lusaka-A, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR MAYISELA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Would you tell us exactly why you are applying for amnesty?

MR MAYISELA: The reason why I am applying for amnesty, the people who were part of the SDU where somehow connected with me. It also appears that I once transported them some point in time, and yet I was transporting them to a funeral.

One other reason why I am ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not quite audible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mayisela, don't you just want to pull that microphone a bit closer to you? Pull it towards you, this thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I think the interpreter had some difficulty in hearing you well so hopefully it will be better now. Will you just repeat what you had just said.

MR MAYISELA: I said the reason why I'm applying for amnesty is that the existence of SDU does implicate me. Why I say that, there were times, as people were dying continuously in our section, there were times that I would transport the comrades, the SDU members to go and monitor us in the cemetery or the graveyard to see how safe we will be and to sort of monitor those who were fully armed.

And also go and check at Kweseni hostel. Since it was closer to the graveyard we would have to check to see that there was safety. Before the funeral procession could take off, headed to the graveyard, we would ensure that the route is clear.

MR SIBEKO: Please correct me if I'm wrong, you say you are applying for amnesty because firstly you were transporting SDU members to and from the cemetery in order to check whether there are police force members who were patrolling the area, so as to avoid a situation where your SDU members' firearms would be taken. Is that what you are saying?

MR MAYISELA: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

MR SIBEKO: And you further say you also transported the SDU members to and from the cemetery in order to check whether the IFP members from the nearby hostel, that is Kweseni, were there to attack any of you who were involved in those burial ceremonies, is that what you are saying?

MR MAYISELA: Yes, that is what I am saying.

MR SIBEKO: Proceed.

MR MAYISELA: One other thing that I remember is that as it has already been heard from the previous applicants, it will so happen that they will come and request me to transport them maybe to Polla Park for example, and I would ask and find out what is it. I don't think I remember anything else but maybe with time I will remember. I have lost memory of so much that transpired.

MR SIBEKO: You were also involved in transporting bullets from Polla Park to Lusaka-A?

MR MAYISELA: Yes, I do agree that I was involved, but then carrying around firearms was so sensitive, you will not just do or administer that anyhow. You will be asked to carry some duty to do something ...(no English translation)

MR SIBEKO: Sir, what - if you can keep this short, what you're saying is even if you were not aware at the time that you were transporting bullets, you later discovered that what you were actually going to fetch from Polla Park to Lusaka-A were bullets and arms?

MR MAYISELA: Actually bullets.

ADV GCABASHE: Can we just get clarity. So it was just transporting people? Transporting people to go and collect things like bullets, it wasn't actually providing them with bullets? Because when I look at your application on page 158 of the application, 9.4, it talks of providing bullets to SDUs or is that a different matter, you also provided? Can you just clarify that?

MR MAYISELA: I would like to explain here. What happened is that I think I should explain how I got involved and then it will emerge as to how it came about that people are saying I brought ammunition.

I was a shop steward for NUMSA and when the civics were set up, I indicated that I am involved in the struggle, I don't mind. And I don't know what was happening in the township where I resided, I was very sceptical about partaking.

When this violence started we were a little mobilised. We knew that - seeing that we were going to the elections, there might be a conflict. So that we were the people who were taking the front seats at meetings. Whatever was discussed at the civic meetings would be referred to the elders in the community, who would then make a decision.

Myself and Dan, the late Dan and some few others were involved in reporting to the community what transpired in the meetings that we had in the civic. That is why my name is implicated in the supply of ammunition.

There is - one other person had an access to the people in Polla Park. Even though a decision was taken, they would come to me and request that I transport them and indicate what they wanted to do. That is why it emerges that I was supplying them. I was not directly involved in supplying them.

MR SIBEKO: And if ...(indistinct) you're saying is, what appears here in your form doesn't necessarily reflect what you actually did. That is, you were fetching, in fact you were transporting those bullets, that is together with whoever would come and ask you but not necessarily supplying bullets to the members of the SDU. Your duty was to transport?

MR MAYISELA: My duties were such that I had to be flexible if they requested me to do whatever. We were the ones who were promoting the civic. We had to be present, we could not leave our section because it was target number one.

One other thing that I also was involved in was to recruit after Dan was killed. I had to recruit membership for the ANC for the election. That is why I got so involved.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, with ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko, can I just come in here? This is all very vague for me.

Mr Mayisela, did you recruit people for SDUs?

MR MAYISELA: I am confused. The volume is disturbing me, I don't understand what the speaker was saying.

ADV SANDI: Yes, let us start again. Did you, Mr Mayisela, recruit membership for SDUs?

MR MAYISELA: No, I was recruiting membership for the ANC, at work and elsewhere.

ADV SANDI: Did people come to you and suggest that you take them to a place where they could fetch ammunition?

MR MAYISELA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Were you at any stage near a place where people were being attacked?

MR MAYISELA: Insofar as attacks were concerned I was not involved but we experienced a lot of problems at the cemetery because these comrades, the SDUs that is, used to shout slogans and a funeral would proceed and after that the Stability Unit would start shooting, starting with the teargas and the shootings would continue thereafter, and we would be burying another person before the following week, a person who had been present at the previous funeral. For example, on Vusi's funeral or in Vusi's funeral if I'm not mistaken, teargas canisters were fired, people were injured. These are incidents that I can refer to.

ADV SANDI: I will just make a request, Mr Mayisela, that you try and make your answers as short as you can. Did you take SDU members to places where they were going to attack IFP people?

MR MAYISELA: No, I don't remember anything to that effect.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any cross-examination?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, just one question.

Sir, if you look at your application at page 160, I just want to ask you two questions. The first being, Mr Chairman, basically the second paragraph.

Is this correct, were you a member of the Committee of Seven?

MR MAYISELA: Yes, that is correct, but I was not doing what the committee was doing, I was mostly involved in the civic. Mr Tshabalala was the only person remaining in the civic, so he had to be assisted and therefore I had to work with them taking minutes at their meetings.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: At those meetings of the Committee of Seven, did any discussions take place pertaining to attacking members of the IFP?

MR MAYISELA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: So you were taking minutes, did you take part in the discussions or were you just taking minutes?

MR MAYISELA: I just want to correct this. In the Committee of Seven there were no minutes, the minutes that I'm talking about are minutes with reference to the civic which met every Wednesday. And on Sundays there would be this other meeting where minutes were not taken, we would just discuss. If there were people who were taking minutes they would just be doing it on their own.

ADV SANDI: What was supposed to be your role in those discussions, in the meetings of the Committee of Seven?

MR MAYISELA: Insofar as the Committee of Seven is concerned my role pertained to the fact that I had to make sure that the comrades - I had to monitor. Let me say, reporters would come.

Every weekend we had to meet and we would report back as to what had transpired in the township during the course of the week, indicating each problem per street. And ourselves as the Committee of Seven were supposed to go back to the community and verify the information gathered so that we could come up with guidelines.

Sometimes there would be minor conflicts between comrades, something very trivial, and we had to intervene and indicate or show them that the situation as it were was not as a result of ethnicity between the IFP or amaXhosa and amaZulu. Instead they had to be conscientised about having to be prepared for the votes that were forthcoming or the election that was forthcoming.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

If you have a look at page 160 of your application, Mr Mayisela, the very last few lines you talk about having assisted SDUs attend flashpoints and you assisted when the SDU community members were injured, by taking them to hospital. Two points, flashpoints and hospital. Now I understood you say that you didn't take any SDUs to flashpoints, can you clarify that first one, flashpoints?

MR MAYISELA: The flashpoint issue was such that after every Sunday meeting we would go back home to relax, but I had a transport and therefore I had to be the one who would drive around and identify flashpoints where necessary.

Insofar as taking the comrades to hospitals, I'm trying to think about that. I cannot remember, honestly speaking.

ADV GCABASHE: Tell us just a little more about identifying flashpoints, what do you mean by that? Just explain that to us. What would you do and who would you be travelling with?

MR MAYISELA: In most instances I would be alone. I would drive around moving from a direction that comes from Khatlehong towards the township, and I would proceed towards the Vereeniging circle. I didn't have to ask what was happening, I just had to look around and if people were walking around freely I would then conclude that things were still fine. That is how I operated.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you have a walkie-talkie that you then used to communicate any problem areas to the SDU commanders?

MR MAYISELA: No, I did not have a walkie-talkie.

ADV GCABASHE: If you came across a problem area, who would you communicate that to, the Committee of Seven or the commander, Mosa or what would you do? What was your duty?

MR MAYISELA: In these areas where there were commanders we no longer patrolled there. I used to communicate with comrade Dan and indicate to him that we have heard gunshots etc., and they would take the necessary steps.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Mayisela. Thank you, Chair.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mayisela, this is still very vague to me. It's not clear to me at all what role you played in all this but I'll try and ask you one or two questions, maybe it will help.

Did you attend any meeting where it was decided that members of the IFP should be attacked?

MR MAYISELA: What I can still remember is that the meetings used to be at Kethegelo. The meeting used to be held often in public, so that decisions such as those had to be taken by commanders. But yes, we knew the IFP was our enemy.

ADV SANDI: In short, what is your answer? I'm not sure. Did you attend such meetings, did you not attend? Can you say that again very briefly, Mr Mayisela.

MR MAYISELA: May answer is that I don't remember being present when such a decision was taken.

ADV SANDI: Did you personally have any discussion with any person regarding attacking members of the IFP? Did you ever come across a situation where members of the IFP were attacking people?

MR MAYISELA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you report that to members of the SDU, to come and attack those members of the IFP?

MR MAYISELA: No. That happened before. Some of the things happened before, before the SDUs had commanders. That is the attacks that I can still remember, that is the IFP attack.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mayisela, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next applicant?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Joseph Tshabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: Will Mr Joseph Tshabalala come to the witness stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Which application is that, does it relate to Lusaka-A or what?

MR SIBEKO: It relates to Lusaka-A, Mr Chairman. May apologies - Johannes Tshabalala.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, his application appears on page 149 of the first bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Please put that on and tell me if you hear, Mr Tshabalala.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand and give us your full names.

JOHANNES DINGAAN TSHABALALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko?

...(end of tape)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: ...(inaudible)

MR TSHABALALA: The reason why I am applying for amnesty, I was a person who would collect monies from the community to purchase unlawful firearms and the ammunition as well.

MR SIBEKO: Where did you do that Sir, in which area of Thokoza?

MR TSHABALALA: At Kethlegelo.

MR SIBEKO: Is Kethlegelo within the section of Lusaka-A?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is a school that is located in Lusaka-A.

MR SIBEKO: Under whose instructions were you acting at the time you collected that money?

MR TSHABALALA: I received my instruction from the community of Lusaka-A.

MR SIBEKO: After having collected that money were you directly involved in purchasing those arms and ammunition?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I did not take any part in it. We would forward the money to the Committee of Seven.

MR SIBEKO: Now in your application form, in one of the answers you say you were a member or an office bearer of the ANC Sectional Committee, what did this have to do with the SDUs?

MR TSHABALALA: I was a chairperson under the civic where the community will gather and discuss about the decisions that have to be taken.

MR SIBEKO: After the words:

... there is SDU, and then:

If you don't mind, have a look at your application form. MR TSHABALALA: In actual fact I was a chairperson of the civic. The paper came back to refer to me as an SDU member and I replied and contradicted that.

MR SIBEKO: So in fact what you're saying is that this is all a mistake?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is a mistake for them to refer to me as an SDU member.

MR SIBEKO: But I'm under the impression that this form is yours and it should have been completed by yourself.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, the form is mine, it belongs to me. And these things came back from Cape Town and I discovered that there SDU appearing there and I wrote back to correct that error referring to me as an SDU member.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any of the activities of the Self Defence Units, that is using arms in defence or in attack against any of the then enemies of the SDUs?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I did not partake.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Cross-examination?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The money that you collected, did you know that it was going to be used to buy arms illegally

to be used by the Self Defence Units to defend the community in Lusaka-A?

MR TSHABALALA: There's one part I missed, please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: The money that you collected, did you know that it was to be used to buy arms illegally, which arms were to be used by the SDUs to defend the community in Lusaka-A?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you asking for amnesty in respect of that?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, in respect of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Tshabalala, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next applicant?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Johannes Pheello Nyakama. His application is on page 180.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand. Please give your full names for the record.

JOHANNES PHEELLO NYAKAMA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Nyakama, you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NYAKAMA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: In your application form you indicate that you were either an office bearer, member or supporter of the ANC, what exactly were you at the time?

MR NYAKAMA: I was a secretary in our section, that is Lusaka-A. That is, I was a SANCO secretary. Our duties included listening to people's complaints and we also sat at the SANCO central level where we represented people's complaints.

MR SIBEKO: In your application form again on page 181, paragraph, question 9(a)4 you say you were involved in collecting money from the community for firearms, do you confirm that?

MR NYAKAMA: Yes, I confirm that.

MR SIBEKO: Were those firearms legal or illegal?

MR NYAKAMA: The firearms were not legal.

MR SIBEKO: Were you personally involved in buying those arms?

MR NYAKAMA: No, I was not involved.

MR SIBEKO: After those arms were purchased, were you personally involved in distributing them?

MR NYAKAMA: No, I was not involved.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct then in saying you are applying for amnesty for your role in collecting, in fact for facilitating the purchase of those illegal firearms?

MR NYAKAMA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you ever involved in any of the activities of the Self Defence Units wherein shots were fired?

MR NYAKAMA: No.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Cross-examination?

ADV STEENKAMP: Nothing, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Just one, the clarity on the ANC answer. You were a member of the ANC in 1992, which is what this application is dealing with?

MR NYAKAMA: I was a member of the ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nyakama, thank you for coming, you are excused.

NAME: EMMANUEL BHEKUMUZI TSHABALALA

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, may I be excused for now, Mr Mopedi will take over.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, Mr Sibeko you are excused.

MR MOPEDI: Mr Chairman, the applicant that I am going to call is Bhekumuzi Emmanuel Tshabalala, page 305.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the purposes of the record, the next applicants are being represented by Mr Mopedi.

Mr Tshabalala, can you hear me?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please and just give us your full names for the record.

EMMANUEL BHEKUMUZI TSHABALALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Tshabalala, you are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty as a former member of SDU for Lusaka-A, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Mr Tshabalala, could you tell this forum why you are applying for amnesty.

MR TSHABALALA: I am seeking amnesty because I was involved with the SDUs and I also used to carry an unlicensed or illegal firearm.

MR MOPEDI: You may proceed.

MR TSHABALALA: Would you please repeat.

MR MOPEDI: Do you recall any specific incident in which you were involved as a member of SDU for Lusaka, where you were carrying a firearm, shooting people. If you can relate those instances.

MR TSHABALALA: The one thing that I still remember is that we were patrolling at Lusaka and as we were patrolling Mochatchu contacted us via the hand radio, to the effect that Penduka was under attack and summoned for our help. We then received our orders from our commander, Mosa, and then we went to Penduka.

MR MOPEDI: Right, continue. Tell us what happened at Penduka.

MR TSHABALALA: When we arrived at Mshayazafe in Penduka, we indeed discovered that it was bad. We then partook in the attack, we started shooting.

MR MOPEDI: Who were you fighting at Penduka?

MR TSHABALALA: There were IFP members as well as the members of the Internal Stability Unit.

MR MOPEDI: Were you carrying a firearm?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: What type of firearm?

MR TSHABALALA: An AK47.

MR MOPEDI: Have you pulled a trigger at Penduka?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And have you injured or killed anyone at Penduka.

MR TSHABALALA: I believe that when a person shoots there must be people who get injured or die.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know who those people were?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I don't know them.

MR MOPEDI: So in other words what you are telling us is that people might have been shot and killed or injured?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And who was your commander as you were launching that attack?

MR TSHABALALA: It was Mosa Msimango.

MR MOPEDI: Do you still remember from your side, that is your co-members, who were with you at Penduka, fighting with you?

MR TSHABALALA: If I am not mistaken I was with Zekele Msimango, Nkosana Tshabalala and our commander.

MR MOPEDI: So those are your members that you could remember now?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: You may proceed. Are there any further instances that you could quote for this panel?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: You may proceed to tell us.

MR TSHABALALA: The one incident that I still remember is that it so happened that in our section, that is Lusaka, if our commander issued out duties in the evening he would go out with some of the SDU members to patrol in the section, and should we come across firearms we would confiscate them and take them to our commander.

MR MOPEDI: Did you find any weapons as you were patrolling?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR TSHABALALA: Could you tell us if you still

remember?

MR TSHABALALA: Would you please repeat the question.

MR MOPEDI: My question is, as you were patrolling you found illegal weapons in possession of other people, so could you tell us about the weapons that you found? Were they knives or firearms or whatever, what kind of weapons were they?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, we came across weapons such as firearms and knives.

MR MOPEDI: So do you know what happened eventually with those weapons?

MR TSHABALALA: These weapons would be taken by the commander and handled it within the Committee of Seven.

MR MOPEDI: You don't know what eventually happened to those weapons, you don't have first-hand information?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mopedi, just for clarity. These weapons the witness is talking about, who were they taking them from? They were patrolling, I follow that, they were confiscating weapons from who, from members of the IFP or from people in the community?

MR MOPEDI: Sir, if I understood the witness very well, he says he has found the weapons from other people, not necessarily members of the IFP but illegal weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you just lead him. Just lead him on that aspect, just ask him who these people were.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Tshabalala, you're telling us that you were confiscating weapons from some other people, who were those people actually?

MR TSHABALALA: These people, some of these people were gangs, gangsters.

MR MOPEDI: So those people were just ordinary people, they were not members of any - to your knowledge, were they members of any political party or any organisation?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: So you're now saying those were members of a gang. Could you specify or clarify us on that aspect?

MR TSHABALALA: Would you please repeat that part?

MR MOPEDI: You say you confiscated weapons from members of a gang, how do you know that those people were members of a gang, could you clarify us on that question?

MR TSHABALALA: We knew some of them, that they were members of the gangsters. We therefore had to frisk them and confiscate their firearms because they were using the firearms to harass the community.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know the name or names of those gangs that you are referring to?

MR TSHABALALA: Some of them are deceased, like Simphiwe and Vusi.

MR MOPEDI: And the gang, you only know the leaders of the gang. If say Simphiwe and Vuzi, were they members of a gang or leaders of a gang or the gang itself was Simphiwe and Vusi?

MR TSHABALALA: They were just members of the gang.

MR MOPEDI: So what I want to know from you is, those gangs that you are referring to, do you perhaps know the names of the gangs?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I know the names.

MR MOPEDI: Could you give us the names?

MR TSHABALALA: There was this one called the Bad Boys.

MR MOPEDI: Bad Boys and which gang, or is that the only one that you remember?

MR TSHABALALA: No, that was not the only gang, the other one was the Khumalo Gang.

MR MOPEDI: Apart from these two incidents that you have quoted, are there any further incidents, specific incidents that you still recall?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there is another one.

MR MOPEDI: You may proceed telling us.

MR TSHABALALA: The one incident in which I was involved is the Mandela section incident.

MR MOPEDI: Right, proceed.

MR TSHABALALA: It so happened that when we were patrolling in our section we received some information from Bonga through the hand radio, to the effect that his place was under attack, being attacked by the IFP. We then met our commander who issued out orders to us, to the effect that we should go up and assist our fellow brothers at Mandela section.

In that instant, as we were moving, we were just about to cross Ligwana and Mandela, we heard gunshots that were directed to us. We then returned fire to the people who were shooting at us until we defeated them. We managed to get into Mandela. We met people such as Bonga there, who gave us orders to the effect that we should go to the place where the conflict was going on.

MR MOPEDI: If you talk about Mandela and earlier talked about Penduka, it's not one and the same place, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: Mandela is in Penduka.

MR MOPEDI: When you started you told us about Penduka, that you were called by radio to Penduka, so are you still referring to the same incident?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I am referring to the same incident.

MR MOPEDI: Yes, my question is, apart from this one, Mandela incident and the incident where you were searching people, are there any further incidents?

MR TSHABALALA: No, these are the only ones that I still remember.

MR MOPEDI: Were you ever involved in a fight at Mazibuko?

MR TSHABALALA: Mazibuko is the very same area to which I referred as Mandela.

MR MOPEDI: Could you clarify for us, Penduka, Mandela and Mazibuko is one and the same place?

MR TSHABALALA: The names were changed at a later stage. Mtabamzimbi is now Lusaka section, Penduka is now called Slovo. In other words Penduka's name changed to Joe Slovo and the Mandela to which I referred, is in Mazibuko. In other words Mazibuko is just the name of the street, the section is Mandela.

MR MOPEDI: Yes, but my question is, Sir, Penduka, Mandela and Mazibuko, are you referring to one and the same place or are they three different places?

MR TSHABALALA: No, it's the same place, it's one place.

MR MOPEDI: So were you ever involved in a fight at Mshayazafe?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: When was it?

MR TSHABALALA: If I still remember very well, it was on the 19th of April 1994.

MR MOPEDI: You may proceed, tell us fully what happened there.

ADV GCABASHE: Isn't that first incident the applicant testified to?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Tshabalala, tell me if I'm wrong. You have told us that you were involved in the Mshayazafe incident, yes?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: You have also told us that you were involved in the Mandela section incident where Bonga communicated that he needed help?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And then you have also touched on a third incident where, I think you said it Mchacho had contacted you. I seem to have three incidents here, am I right or have I got too many incidents here?

MR TSHABALALA: No, that one, the Mchacho incident is associated with the Mshayazafe incident.

ADV GCABASHE: The Bonga incident is the Penduka incident? I'm just totally confused about the incidents now that you have give us. How many incidents and at which places? Maybe if you gave us the years if you can, maybe that would help us. 1993, 1994, maybe that will help us a little bit.

MR TSHABALALA: The Mchacho incident in which I said we were contacted through red phone or radio, it happened in 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: The Bonga incident?

MR TSHABALALA: If I am not mistaken the Mshayazafe one, if I'm not mistaken, was in 1994 and the Bonga incident was in 1993. I think I mixed them up.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us, Mr Tshabalala, in how many incidents were you involved?

MR TSHABALALA: The Mshayazafe incident and the Mazibuko incident.

CHAIRPERSON: You were involved in two incidents?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, these are the incidents that I have touched on here.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's take number one, incident number one, which year did that happen and which month, the first incident?

MR TSHABALALA: The first incident as I have explained, happened in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did it happen?

MR TSHABALALA: This happened at Mshayazafe.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this, where is Mshayazafe?

MR TSHABALALA: As I have explained, Mshayazafe is in Penduka.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is Mshayazafe, is it a street, is it a school, what is it?

MR TSHABALALA: It is a hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were involved as an SDU member, in a fight at this hostel in 1993, is that right?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you fighting against?

MR TSHABALALA: We were attacking the IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were living at this hostel?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you armed with an AK47 rifle?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you fire this AK47 rifle?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did fire.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you fire at?

MR TSHABALALA: I fired at the IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you shoot to kill them?

MR TSHABALALA: I think everybody who was shooting using a gun, knows the results that death is a possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about yourself. Did you shoot to kill?

MR TSHABALALA: I fired these shots with an intention to defend the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I realise that because you were acting as a member of the SDU, but what did you intend, did you intend to kill these people?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you accept that there is a possibility that you might have killed or injured some of them?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I think it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can't tell us exactly who or how many people you might have killed or injured in that incident?

MR TSHABALALA: I cannot say. I did not see people who died or got injured when I shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us go to incident number two, when did that happen?

MR TSHABALALA: This incident happened at Mandela section.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, before you explain where, when did it happen, when? Give us a date.

MR TSHABALALA: I think this happened in 1993, if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give any other indication, perhaps the month possibly?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not quite remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it early in 1993 or in the middle of 1993 or towards the end of 1993, if you can help?

MR TSHABALALA: It was in the middle of 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did this happen?

MR TSHABALALA: As I have explained earlier on, I did state that we went to Mandela after having received information from Bonga, wherein he was telling us that they were under attack and they wanted our assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that this incident took place in Mandela section in Thokoza?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us where in Mandela section this happened?

MR TSHABALALA: At Mazibuko Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it at a particular place, at a house, at a hostel, at a school, at a church, can you help?

MR TSHABALALA: It happened in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you fighting with in this incident?

MR TSHABALALA: We were fighting the IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you again armed with your AK47 rifle?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you fire it again at these people, at these people you were fighting with, the IFP people?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you have the same intention as in the incident number one?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And again, you can't say if you have killed or injured anybody?

MR TSHABALALA: As I have stated before yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these the only two incidents that you can remember?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're asking for amnesty for your participation in these two incidents?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I am seeking amnesty insofar as these two incidents are concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Now there is some indication that the first incident that you referred to, that it happened in 1994, is it possible that you are mistaken with the year? Because you said you think it is in 1993

MR TSHABALALA: Which incident are you referring to, would you please explain to me?

CHAIRPERSON: Incident number one that you referred to at the hostel in Penduka section.

ADV GCABASHE: Mshayazafe.

MR TSHABALALA: As I have stated earlier that it might as well be that I confused the dates and the years etc., I do not quite remember very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Tshabalala. Mr Mopedi?

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just very quickly.

Is it possible that you had two attacks at Mshayazafe at different times, or more than that in fact?

MR TSHABALALA: We only attacked once.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Tshabalala, the AK47 that you were using, what happened to it?

MR TSHABALALA: This AK was taken by my commander, Mosa, and he took it to the stadium on the day when firearms were to be brought to the stadium.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi. Cross-examination?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Mr Tshabalala, just one question. The Bad Boys and members of the Khumalo gang, you say you confiscated weapons from them, did you do anything to those people?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

ADV SANDI: You are not making any application in regard to your treatment of those people?

MR TSHABALALA: As I have explained earlier on, I am just seeking amnesty insofar as the things that I did.

ADV SANDI: Members of the ISU, you say you saw then at Mshayazafe, did you aim any shot at members of the ISU?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Are you not making an application for amnesty in regard to that as well?

MR TSHABALALA: As I have stated earlier on that yes, I am seeking amnesty concerning all the things that I did.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Tshabalala, there are obviously other incidents that you were involved in that you can't remember, am I right?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

ADV GCABASHE: There are no other incidents at all, be they minor incidents or very serious attacks, between 1993 and 1994, that you may have forgotten about?

MR TSHABALALA: These are the only incidents that I remember and I know, there are no others.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Mopedi?

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabalala, thank you very much, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi, or Mr Sibeko?

MR MOPEDI: Mr Chairman, the next applicant is ...(indistinct) Mako. I think I have it here as James Sompele Masoka.

CHAIRPERSON: Which page?

ADV SANDI: It's 91, Mr Mopedi, page 91.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Masoka, can you hear?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and give us your full names?

JAMES SOMPELE MASOKA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Mopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Masoka, you are the applicant in this matter and you have brought this application for amnesty as a former member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A, am I correct?

MR MASOKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASOKA: I joined SDU in 1993.

MR MOPEDI: And who was your commander?

MR MASOKA: Mosa Msimango was my commander.

MR MOPEDI: As a member of the Self Defence Unit, what were your duties?

MR MASOKA: As a member of the Self Defence Unit my duty was to patrol around the section, carry around my weapon, AK47 and inspect and monitor the situation around our section, and also monitor other sections.

MR MOPEDI: Were you ever involved in a fight as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASOKA: Yes, that's true.

MR MOPEDI: Tell us about those specific incidents in which you were involved in.

MR MASOKA: The first incident that I remember took place in 1993 at Mazibuko Street, as the previous explained about that incident.

MR MOPEDI: So you confirm what he said?

MR MASOKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: So in which incidents were you involved apart from that one in Mazibuko?

MR MASOKA: One other incident I remember or I recall took place at Mshayazafe in 1994. I was present.

MR MOPEDI: Were you also involved with Mr Tshabalala, the one who has just testified?

MR MASOKA: Yes, I was present even there.

MR MOPEDI: Do you also confirm his testimony in that respect?

MR MASOKA: Please repeat your question.

MR MOPEDI: You say you were involved also at Mshayazafe Hostel with Mr Tshabalala.

MR MASOKA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MOPEDI: So my next question is, do you confirm what he has told us here?

MR MASOKA: Yes, I concur with what he has rendered to this Commission.

MR MOPEDI: Are there any further instances that you would like to tell us about?

MR MASOKA: One other incident that I remember he did touch, with regards to the gangsters, the Bad Boys that is, and the Khumalo gang, that is. I have nothing further, other than that.

MR MOPEDI: So you were also involved in disarming the gangs, confiscating arms from the gangs?

MR MASOKA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MOPEDI: In those instances that you have referred us to, did you shoot or have you ever shot anyone?

MR MASOKA: Yes, at Mandela I shot and even at Mazibuko Street, as well as Mshayazafe incident. I did shoot at those two incidents.

MR MOPEDI: You shot. My question is, did you shoot anyone that you can tell us about?

MR MASOKA: In actual fact I won't be in a position to have the knowledge as to what happened after I shot. I know for a fact that I did pull the trigger. And as I prepared myself to shoot, I intended to kill because the person who will be shooting at me, it was also his intention to kill me.

MR MOPEDI: But now you cannot say with certainty that you killed someone or you injured someone, what you know is that you shot?

MR MASOKA: Yes, that's true.

MR MOPEDI: And the possibility is that you might have shot someone or even injured someone?

MR MASOKA: Yes, that I will not repudiate.

MR MOPEDI: And the people that you were fighting, that you were shooting at, who were they, were those people IFP people?

MR MASOKA: Yes, those were IFP members and colluding with the ISU in their deeds.

MR MOPEDI: So you are applying for amnesty in respect of those acts that you have committed?

MR MASOKA: Yes, that is so, I am applying for amnesty for all the heinous deeds I committed in the past and also being found with an unlicensed firearm and the activities that I took part in with regards to the Bad Boys and Khumalo gang.

MR MOPEDI: And do were you given a firearm, an AK47, is that correct?

MR MASOKA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MOPEDI: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

What did you eventually do with the firearm?

MR MASOKA: In 1994 I took my, or rather we took our firearms to Thokoza stadium where we were being called to take them to. I was with my commander by the name of Mosa.

MR MOPEDI: When you shot, what was your intention? Was your intention to kill or what was your intention?

MR MASOKA: Yes, I would agree and say my intention as I shot was to kill because they were also maintaining the same intention, to shoot to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any further questions?

MR MOPEDI: No further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Cross-examination?

ADV STEENKAMP: No cross-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I assume you don't have anything else?

MR MOPEDI: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Masoka, thank you for coming, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any further applicants?

MR MOPEDI: I do have one, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How many have you got?

MR MOPEDI: It's only one for now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: One left. Alright, I think call him before we adjourn.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Goodman Montlem Motaung. It's page 98.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear, Mr Motaung?

MR MOTAUNG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you stand and give us your full names?

GOODMAN MONTLEM MOTAUNG: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down, Mr Motaung. Mr Mopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Motaung, you have also got an application for amnesty and could you tell us why you are applying for amnesty?

MR MOTAUNG: The reason why I came forward to apply for amnesty is because there are incidents that I took part in.

MR MOPEDI: Can you tell us about those instances, tell us about those incidents.

MR MOTAUNG: There is an incident that I took part in in 1993, although I don't have the finer details inasfar as the dates and time is concerned. We had gone to attack after some boys were shot at Mtagane Street, attacked by the IFP members.

Now in that particular incident the commander in charge was Sipho Ngubane and Mr Msimango was the chief commander at the time. When he met Mchacho, Slovo commander that is, they discussed about the incident that transpired in Mtagane Street and then we planned to launch a counter-attack.

MR MOPEDI: If I may come in, where were you going to launch an attack?

MR MOTAUNG: This attack was to be launched or was launched at Penduka. We were attacking Penduka people in actual fact.

MR MOPEDI: Were you together with Mr Tshabalala and Mr Masoka?

MR MOTAUNG: No, that particular attack I'm referring to was in the company of Simphiwe Ndlovu, Plegase Mhambi as well. One other person who was in our company was Kambule but he is in prison.

MR MOPEDI: Right, you may proceed.

MR MOTAUNG: Sipho Ngubane met with the Thambo commander and decided on day of attack, that it should happen on - the shooting of the small boys happened on a Friday in 1993 at night, and Sipho Ngubane came back to give us the report that he had already had a meeting with the other commander and the attack will be launched on Monday.

Sunday we went to Sipho Ngubane's home to gather there as a base so we would be able to wake up early in the morning and get ready for the attack. Indeed we went to Slovo. Now Slovo and Thambo are close to each other.

We found the soldiers from Slovo and their commander Nchacha, and we divided ourselves according to streets. Some were in - one group went to Khumalo Street, Ndagane Street, Shabango Street, Dube Street and Tshabalala Street.

We were grouped to this street known as Dube Street. That is where we were deployed. We waited for the shooting to emanate from Khumalo Street. We were very much alert for the response that will follow thereafter.

Now when we arrived we were waiting for the shooting to emanate from Khumalo Street, so that when people wake up they will find out that we are already there, ready to attack them but unfortunately it did not happen for those people to wake up and come to the streets where we were. The shooting did not start at Khumalo Street.

We started knocking at their doors and when they opened the doors we would assault them using sticks. We fled to Khatlehong, Nxala section because there were soldiers who were patrolling by foot. We saw those soldiers coming towards the street and we insulted them as they tried to call us. We fled the scene and we went to Nxala section in Khatlehong.

When we got to Nxala there was a furrow we had to cross and we got in a certain house and we were provided with clothes to wear and some soldiers were already there, trying to search if there were any street patrols patrolling the streets so that we would be able to go back ...(end of tape)

... already were mingling there and Mosa Msimango was already there. He commanded us to go back to our homes, respective homes, because it was no longer safe for us to be found around this scene. Sipho Ngubane that day was the commander on duty.

MR MOPEDI: Now this house in Dube Street ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

MR MOPEDI: And this house in Dube Street, did you shoot people there?

MR MOTAUNG: At that particular house, yes we did shoot. Some people died, some survived and escaped but I'm not in a position to furnish you with an estimation or a number as to how many were injured but one thing for sure, the area is predominantly IFP. That house was covered with corrugated iron on the windows.

MR MOPEDI: So the people who were possibly shot, you don't know their names, you don't know who those people were?

MR MOTAUNG: The people who were shot there, I don't really know their names, I don't even know them facially but one thing I know is that they are IFP members.

MR MOPEDI: You in particular, you specifically, you also shot people there?

MR MOTAUNG: That I won't deny because I did have a firearm that was loaded.

MR MOPEDI: Why was it necessary for you to go and shoot those people?

MR MOTAUNG: What necessitated my action to shoot those people was that firstly I was an SDU member, secondly I was in this call of defending the community. So when that incident took place at Ndagane Street, when the little boys were shot, I took it upon my shoulders that I should do something as well and take part because our small boys were shot and I felt therefore obliged to do something towards this effect.

MR MOPEDI: So when you went there to shoot, what was your intention?

MR MOTAUNG: It was to kill and injure, possibly.

MR MOPEDI: So apart from the incident that you have told us about now, are there any other incidents that you still remember?

MR MOTAUNG: Another incident that I recall is the one Bheki Tshabalala referred to, when we would search unlawful firearms and knives that would be in the possession of people and we will confiscate such and we will taken them to the Committee of Seven.

MR MOPEDI: So on that aspect you confirm what Mr Tshabalala has already told this hearing?

MR MOTAUNG: Yes, I strongly agree with him.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone was not on.

MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add?

MR MOTAUNG: It's the Mshayazafe incident that I would like to dwell upon now, next to Khumalo Street. But what I emphasise about that particular incident is that I was not armed, I did not have an AK47 in my possession. I did take part though together with other soldiers to sort of check if there were police and if the condition was clear.

MR MOPEDI: So when was it when you went to Khumalo, when you launched an attack at Khumalo?

MR MOTAUNG: It was a fight at Khumalo as such, it was not an attack. It was a war type of a situation and that started at about nine, at about ten/eleven in the morning. That's when that war started.

MR MOPEDI: So you did not shoot there, you only participated by helping the members of the SDU with information?

MR MOTAUNG: Yes, I would say so, I did not shoot on that day because I did not have a firearm with me. I will only assist in checking the conditions for them as far as police were concerned, to ensure that the area was clear of any police.

MR MOPEDI: You were also allocated an AK47, is that correct? You were also given an AK47, is that correct?

MR MOTAUNG: On that particular day I did not have an AK47.

MR MOPEDI: What I mean, during the other attacks that you have referred to earlier, you had an Ak47 that you were using?

MR MOTAUNG: Yes, indeed.

MR MOPEDI: So could you tell us where that AK47 is, what happened to it?

MR MOTAUNG: In 1993, 1994, I beg your pardon, when there was peace and stability in the location our commander Mosa took it to the stadium when they were calling for firearms to be handed over.

MR MOPEDI: So you're also asking for amnesty?

MR MOTAUNG: Yes, I am applying for amnesty.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Cross-examination?

ADV STEENKAMP: No cross-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: This incident at Mshayazafe, Mr Motaung, at Mshayazafe, you say you had no firearm, why were you not armed?

MR MOTAUNG: What happened that day is, there was one firearm from our section, the other was in proper, that was not functioning properly. You had to keep cocking it before you pulled the trigger, so the commander declared that firearm as not in proper function. So that particular day I did not have a firearm in my possession, due to that.

ADV SANDI: Where was your usual firearm?

MR MOTAUNG: That was the firearm I'm referring to, I'm talking about. That day the firearm was not operating smoothly, you had to keep cocking and pulling the trigger and it was a bit cumbersome to use that particular firearm that day.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Motaung, the Mshayazafe incident, you say it was a war, how long did it last? You've told us it started at about ten/eleven in the morning, how long did that incident go on for?

MR MOTAUNG: This war was quelled by the ISU and the soldiers. The soldiers I'm remembering were the National Peace-keeping Force and the SANDF as well were there. They helped to quell the fight but it was late by then because people had already been killed.

ADV GCABASHE: So it went on all day, over two days? Just give us an idea.

MR MOTAUNG: It went on for that day.

ADV GCABASHE: To go back to the Dube Street incident. I understood you to say that because the shooting didn't start at Khumalo Street as you had planned, you then had to knock on people's doors to alert them that you were there, for one, and then attack once they opened the doors, is that correct?

MR MOTAUNG: Yes, that's what happened.

ADV GCABASHE: I also understood you to say at the time that you were armed with other weapons, I didn't think you had firearms at the time. Just correct me, because later on you indicated that you had your AK47 and you did shoot. Just help me, how many people had firearms and how many had knives or sticks or hit people with their fists?

MR MOTAUNG: You see on that particular day, amongst the people I was with no-one had sticks or knives, the only weapons we had were AK47s.

ADV GCABASHE: How many houses did you go into, just one or a number of houses on that street?

MR MOTAUNG: As I've already explained, we went to this particular house which was covered with corrugated iron on the windows. We fled after we attacked the people in that particular house. That is when the soldiers appeared and called on us. In actual fact they disturbed us in our mission because once they appeared we had to run away and we fled towards Khatlehong.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr Mopedi?

MR MOPEDI: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Motaung, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp, what is the position now?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I had a request from both my learned colleagues over there, Mr Sibeko and Mr Mopedi, that they are currently not in a position to proceed merely because they were not afforded the opportunity to consult and to prepare themselves for the rest of the applicants who are present here. They have only prepared those six applicants who testified today. The suggestion is from them as well that time can be bought in if they had an opportunity to prepare and consult with the remaining applicants, which will practically and logistically also make sense I would agree, because that would also save time later on. But I am sure Mr Mopedi and Mr Sibeko can fill you in on the details. As you please, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Gentlemen, Advocate Steenkamp has sketched part of the situation to us. Is that in fact your position at this stage?

MR SIBEKO: It's correct so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And is the understanding that you would be placed in a position should the proceedings at this stage be postponed to start preparing further applications which you haven't had the opportunity to prepare on previously?

MR SIBEKO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sorry, I just want to indicate for record purposes, that these applicants are coming from very far and because they are present here today, we might as well consult with them and prepare them as well.

There's also the question of dealing with the logistical arrangements regarding legal aid and transport, although that is not the real issue. The other reason is, Mr Chairman, we have the majority of applicants here present today, which are applicants from Lusaka-B as well and for that we have to thank our investigators for them to be present. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So with the result that the legal representatives will be placed in a position to do most of the consultations in order to be able to proceed with the remaining applications once we reconvene?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that is exactly what is envisaged for the whole of next week in any event. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, under those circumstances it appears as if we have listened to the testimony of the witnesses who were originally scheduled to appear today. It appears as if there are other applicants present but in respect of whose applications the legal representatives have not had adequate opportunity to prepare and to consult. And it appears as if whatever time might become available through the matters being postponed at this stage, it could be utilised by the legal representatives to engage in preparing for the remaining applications.

Under those circumstances it appears as if it would be sensible to adjourn the hearing. There have been indications earlier that the session would not be able to continue tomorrow for the reason that the registration for voters for the elections would interfere with these proceedings, and that is was clear earlier on that we would not be able to sit in any event in this venue tomorrow and it didn't make much sense to up everything and try and secure a different venue just for the day tomorrow, simply to come back to the venue over here.

So under those circumstances we will adjourn the session until Monday, the date escapes me for the moment but coming Monday, and we will commence the hearings at 10 o'clock in this venue. So we will adjourn and Monday, the 30th of November 1998. Our staff will do whatever is necessary to enable Mr Sibeko and Mr Mopedi and whoever else representing applicants, to be able to consult with their clients and to prepare to enable us to commence and to continue hearing applications next week, with the least possible interruption.

So under those circumstances we will then adjourn until Monday at 10 o'clock.