--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: We would like to start, so won't you please settle down. Just take your seats please. For purposes of the record, today is Tuesday, the 8th of December 1998.

This is a continuation of the hearings of the Amnesty Committee in respect of the amnesty applications of members of various Self Defence Units in the former East Rand area. The panel is constituted as placed on record earlier. Adv Steenkamp still appears as the Leader of Evidence, and the first matter for today is that of Jeremia Mbongeni Mabuza, reference number AM7633/97.

Mr Shein, do you want to put yourself on record for the applicant please?

MR SHEIN: I am Lawley Shein, Attorney of Johannesburg, representing the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Mabuza, can you hear me on the headphones? Perhaps we must just ensure that the headset is on the right number.

We will just make sure whether we are actually coming through on the system. We haven't heard anything either. The Technician just wants to look at what is the possible cause or the difficulty. Is it on, okay? Mr Mabuza, hopefully you can hear us now? Is that okay.

Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record, and when you do that, switch on the microphone in front of you.

MR MABUZA: My full names are Jeremia Mbongeni Mabuza.

JEREMIA MBONGENI MABUZA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down. Mr Shein?

EXAMINATION BY MR SHEIN: Thank you Mr Chairman, and learned Commissioners.

Firstly Mr Chairman, the application made by the applicant, I am instructed was signed and completed at 23h00 on the 10th of May last year, just before the deadline, and that is why the actual offences for which amnesty is sought, is not properly dealt with.

Also you will note that the application which has also come to my attention, I believe also the application before you Mr Chairman, has not been attested to before a Commissioner of Oaths.

I don't know if that is - but what I can do is get the applicant to confirm that this is his application, which he certainly does do. This is the application which he made on the 10th of May 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Shein, we know that many of these applications have been completed under very adverse circumstances and in a great rush and hurry and so on. We don't have any difficulty if the applicant, under oath, confirms his application.

We certainly don't have any difficulty in condoning whatever formal defects there might be in this kind of regard. One other thing that we would also require, seeing that we are busy curing the application form, is for your client to possibly give us his identity number, that is important for our purposes.

Perhaps if he has it, he can deal with it, otherwise you can just furnish it to us at a convenient stage.

MR SHEIN: His identity number is 740811 5468 082.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Is there any other formal issue that you want to deal with before you start?

MR SHEIN: That is all the formal issues. Mr Chairman, the offences for which amnesty is sought are, arson, malicious damage to property and sabotage.

The applicant was at all times a member of the ANC, living in Khatlehong. I submit that the war situation and the problems with the IFP, are known and I wonder if I could have an indication whether the Committee would like to hear the applicant on that, on the political motivation for this?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can assume that this panel, having been sitting for the last three weeks, hearing applications from either members of the Self Defence Units in especially Thokoza, but also relating to Khatlehong, as well as various other applicants who were enjoying a leadership position in this area, as well as some witnesses who had shed light on the general situation, and particularly the conflict in this particular area, involving members or supporters of the African National Congress and the Inkatha Freedom Party, has been dealt with quite thoroughly.

For our purposes it will be sufficiently if your client deals simply with the particular incidents that he is applying for and that he wishes to highlight for our purposes. Thank you.

MR SHEIN: Mr Mabuza, we will deal with the first incident for which you seek amnesty, and that is for an act of arson committed by you at house number 256, Khatlehong.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shein, I am sorry to interrupt you. Just for our purposes, perhaps you can just lead him initially on his membership and his participation in either political organisations or Self Defence Units and so on, and then I think you can start dealing with those incidents, so that we have it all on record.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Shein in doing that, you can also cover the whole question of orders. What orders were issued to him, who he was accountable to for whatever functions he had to carry out.

MR SHEIN: Mr Mabuza, firstly you were a member of the ANC and you were also a member of the Khatlehong Self Defence Unit. Is that correct?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: As the Committee knows, the Self Defence Unit's purpose was protection. You were given orders to do certain things, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry again Mr Shein. I know it takes a bit of a while to get into the process, but soon you will have it under control, but just ...

MR SHEIN: Do you agree that you, being a member of a Self Defence Unit in Khatlehong, you were given orders by certain people, is that correct?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: Can you tell who the people who the people who gave you orders in the inner structures that you were in, were?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I can tell you. The people who were giving orders was the community and comrade Joe Sangweni, though sometimes he never issued orders, I had to use my initiative when I see that the situation needs me to do something, and sometimes he wouldn't be next to me. He wouldn't be next to me all the times.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just check, Josam Mweni, is that the name?

MR MABUZA: Josia Sangweni is the name.

ADV GCABASHE: And was he the Commander of your particular SDU?

MR MABUZA: Yes, he was my Commander.

ADV GCABASHE: And were the SDU's in Khatlehong divided into sections or how exactly did those structures work in Khatlehong? We have heard a lot about Thokoza, just tell us a little bit about the Khatlehong structure and how you fitted in, which one you would have fitted into?

MR MABUZA: I belonged to Tanzania section, that was in Zone 4.

ADV SANDI: This Tanzania section, is that where you resided?

MR MABUZA: Tanzania was the name that came from the community, the place used to be called Hlamane Section, but it was later changed to Tanzania Section.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, you can continue, thank you.

MR SHEIN: Mr Mabuza, how old are you today?

MR MABUZA: I am 25 years old.

MR SHEIN: During 1993, you were a scholar at Mpontseng Secondary School, is that correct?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: During that year, you on a certain day when you came out of school in the afternoon, you witnessed something. Will you tell the Commission what you saw when you came out of school?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I was at school, just before lunch time, as we are still busy at school, we were hearing gunshots outside and we were quite uncomfortable and we couldn't go on. We just decided to go home.

On my way home, I was seeing hitsquad and the people were being shot at, but fortunately I managed to get home unharmed, but just before I could get home, I saw a house that was on fire. It was in front of a secondary school called Khatlehong Secondary School. Next to that house, there was a dead body.

I went into the house and I put my books there and I took my pistol and I went out. Just in front of my house, next to the corner, there was a group of people that were known to me. I went to them and I enquired about what was happening in the community. They told me that the fight between the ANC and IFP had started.

They said to me I must stop asking questions because things were bad. We went to house number 256 at Hlongwani, that was the same street where I was residing.

MR SHEIN: You went to house number 256 in your street, for what reason did you do that?

MR MABUZA: There were IFP members that were residing there, we used to see them going to the rallies, IFP rallies and meetings. Those were the same people who nearly killed me. Their names were Oci and Bazuka. That was before we could have firearms as a community.

MR SHEIN: You mentioned Oci and Bazuka, were there other people also in that group that went with Oci and Bazuka?

MR MABUZA: The people were in my company that I can still remember was Aubrey Ngwenya and Muhlodi Mujodi and Tsyetsi and Leonard Radebe.

MR SHEIN: You went to this house at 256, you were looking for Bazuka and Oci and others, is that correct?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: What did you want them for?

MR MABUZA: We had to do something to them, they had to pay back because of what they did to us before we had guns.

MR SHEIN: What did you want to do to them?

MR MABUZA: We wanted to destroy IFP, because it also managed to destroy us in 1990 as we were unarmed as a community.

MR SHEIN: Did you want to kill Bazuka, Oci and other members of their group?

MR MABUZA: Yes, we wanted to do that if we got them there.

MR SHEIN: You went to this house at 256, but Oci and Bazuka and his group were not there, is that right?

MR MABUZA: Yes, they were not there.

MR SHEIN: But who did you find there?

MR MABUZA: We got women there, there were women and children, but I am not a coward, I don't kill women.

MR SHEIN: How many women, can you remember how many women were in the house?

MR MABUZA: Two or three or more than three, I can't remember.

MR SHEIN: Where was Bazuka and Oci, were you told where they were?

MR MABUZA: We were told that Bazuka and Oci were at work.

MR SHEIN: What happened while you were talking to these women in the house, what actually happened outside?

MR MABUZA: The community was very angry, as I was still talking to these people, they started to stone the house, and I had to get out of the house.

When I went out to the group of people, some women followed me and though the community was very angry, they did no harm to women. I know that my community is not composed of cowards, they don't kill women.

MR SHEIN: What happened after that, after these women were escorted out of the house, what happened?

MR MABUZA: That is when the house was set alight and the windows were already broken. I can't remember whether it was Aubrey or someone else who put petrol in one of the bedrooms and the dining room.

MR SHEIN: Is it correct that you are the person that struck the match, that was put to the petrol, setting the house on fire?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I am the one who set the house alight.

MR SHEIN: After this house was set alight, you went back there with your same group the following day, is that correct?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: Why did you do that?

MR MABUZA: We did not want to stay with the people who had pretended to be friends with us during the day and during the night, they would hunt us.

The same thing that we were looking for in 1990, they were the same people who were pointing to their brothers and telling them this is an ANC household, an IFP household and so on.

We were in the Executive, ANC Executive in Zone 4 and my role was on publicity. In front of the particular house, there was a ...(indistinct), so the argument started when we wanted to place our posters there. That is where they wanted to kill me.

MR SHEIN: The following day you took part in the burning of the ...

ADV GCABASHE: Excuse me Mr Shein, I have a bit of a difficulty in the way you are leading him. He's got all the facts, he has given them to you, but we would like to hear the facts from him. If you can just turn the questions around.

MR SHEIN: Will you tell the Commission what happened the following day regarding the shacks?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, maybe even before we go to the next day, whose house was this, the house you say you set alight, you burnt with petrol, who did it belong to?

MR MABUZA: I heard that that was Mr Zwane's house.

ADV SANDI: Was Mr Zwane, who was Mr Zwane?

MR MABUZA: Since I was born, I never saw Mr Zwane, but the only people that we used to see there, were IFP members. But we used to hear that that was Mr Zwane's house, but Mr Zwane was never known to me.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but I thought you told us that when you went there, the intention was to kill the two gentlemen that you have mentioned, Bazuka and Oci and when you didn't find them, you just burnt the house. Why did you burn this house?

MR MABUZA: He had people staying in there, so that those people can identify us.

ADV SANDI: Did you go there as a big group? You say whilst you were talking to the women who were inside the house, you saw that outside there were members of the community who were angry. Were these people part of your group when you proceeded to this house?

MR MABUZA: Yes, they were part of our group.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Shein, continue.

ADV GCABASHE: So that we can just finish off this incident, you had a firearm you said?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I had a firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did you get that from, I will tell you the context I am asking this in. We have heard about community firearms, we have heard about personal firearms. Just tell me which category yours would have fallen into.

MR MABUZA: This was my personal firearm. I confiscated it from one of the criminals while we were patrolling during the night, and it was given to the community.

If, we during patrolling, if we would find anyone with an unlawful firearm, it should be confiscated. Then we would take that firearm and help the community, to protect the community as the police were failing to do so.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Shein, I understand your intend to go into the next day, will that be a new incident, a separate incident?

MR SHEIN: It is in fact a separate incident, but at the same time, it is at the same place, at house 256. It is just a continuation of the previous day's acts.

Mr Mabuza, the following day, just tell the Commission briefly what happened as far as the shacks are concerned, and what you did.

MR MABUZA: On the following day, in the morning, as the fight was still going on, we couldn't sleep in the night, we were safeguarding the community and we were ready for the fight and we were tired of running away to the churches, to the schools and to the hospitals, owning our own houses.

We just told ourselves that we were going to fight, we were going to fight back. At about six or seven o'clock in the morning, the following day, as the previous day we did not get a chance to set their shacks alight, even the group, I was there with the same group that I was with the previous day. We went to the shacks and we broke the doors and we checked, we searched the shacks, but there was no one inside, and we set the shacks alight.

The whole six or seven of them. I cannot remember how many were those shacks, because we were not working as permanent soldiers, and we were not keeping record of anything that was happening. We were not writing down anything, that is why I can't even remember the date, because those were things that would happen randomly.

MR SHEIN: What did you use to set these shacks alight?

MR MABUZA: We used petrol and a match.

MR SHEIN: Still dealing with Bazuka, will you tell this Committee what happened a few days later regarding Bazuka and your sister?

MR MABUZA: When I was in the house, in my house in the kitchen, I was preparing a meal for myself, I heard my sister talking to my mother. I heard my sister talking to my mother about Bazuka, saying that since Bazuka's house was set alight, he ran to Ngema Section and he became a tenant there in my sister's house and he was given a shack temporarily, because that shack was empty.

I went to my sister and asked her what Bazuka are you talking about, are you talking about the same Bazuka? She said yes. I took my comrade, I went to my sister's house at Ngema Section. I think the number was 156 Ngema Section.

MR SHEIN: When you went to Ngema Section, you were armed, correct?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I think the others had pistols, though I did not see them, but I was armed with an AK47 rifle.

MR SHEIN: Where did you get that from?

MR MABUZA: That belonged to the community.

MR SHEIN: All right.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mabuza, that is not clear at all, what do you mean it belonged to the community? Who in the community did it belong to?

MR MABUZA: I am going to explain that the whole community would contribute some moneys and the moneys, that money was used to buy the arms.

That is why I said from the beginning that I used to get my orders, some of the orders from the community and comrade Joe Sangweni. Sometimes he wouldn't, actually he wouldn't issue an order without getting a direction from the community because the community were the people who were responsible for buying the ammunition and the firearms and the community would assist us in a lot of things that we needed.

MR SHEIN: Will you tell the Committee what happened at your sister's place at Ngema Section?

MR MABUZA: When we arrived there, we surrounded the house in all directions. We saw Mr Sibiya standing outside and Mr Sibiya knew me very well, and he asked me what was the problem. I told him that we were looking for Bazuka. I wanted to know where Bazuka was.

He told me that Bazuka was at work, and I asked where Bazuka's bedroom was, and he told me that he is staying in one of the shacks that was outside, that belonged to Mr Sibiya, but the belongings inside was Bazuka's belongings.

We took everything that belonged to Bazuka inside the shack, we took everything to the street and we set everything alight, everything that was in that shack.

After that, we went back to Zone 4.

MR SHEIN: All right, the next incident of arson which you must deal with, is the one at 61 Hlongwani Section, Khatlehong.

Do you remember it, in 1993?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I can still remember that.

MR SHEIN: Can you explain to us what happened there?

MR MABUZA: At number 61 Hlongwani Section, Dumsani who was a policeman, was staying there. We wanted to disarm him.

MR SHEIN: Why did you want to disarm him, what was the reason for that?

MR MABUZA: We wanted to get more arms, we wanted to have more firearms to protect the whole Zone 4.

MR SHEIN: Can you tell the Committee what happened there?

MR MABUZA: We went in as usual, we covered all angles. I went straight to the house, when I got in there, when I tried to handle, to touch the door handle, the door opened easily because it was not locked.

When I got into the house, I saw a table and some chairs and the cupboard, but there was nothing inside the cupboards.

Even in the bedrooms, there was a wardrobe, there was only a mattress, it was clear that no one was sleeping there. I opened the wardrobe, the wardrobe was empty. I went to the dining room, there was no TV, there was just nothing, there was no entertainment.

We went to the outside rooms. We opened the back rooms, even the wardrobes were empty. There was a big old bed and I opened and I looked underneath. I saw a box under the bed. I opened the box, I wanted to see what was inside. I saw a T-shirt with an IFP logo.

There were about three or four T-shirts, I can't remember clearly. We opened the drawers of the headboard, we saw an IFP membership card.

After finding all those things, I checked the other rooms, but there was just nothing. It was just like in the house, there was just nothing.

I took all that I found there, I took it out because there were people outside waiting for me. I showed these things to them, meaning the IFP membership cards and the T-shirts with IFP logo.

Just before I could finish this, they did not want to understand anything thereafter. They stoned the house. The petrol bombs were thrown into the house and the back rooms. That is how the house was burnt down.

After a few days, maybe after a week, a meeting was held at Tanzania Section in Khatlehong. These houses that were burnt down, were in the agenda. They said there were people who were hiding in those burnt down houses and mugging people.

MR SHEIN: Do you refer to criminals when you talk about these people hiding in the houses?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I am referring to criminals. In that meeting, the whole community of Tanzania, including myself, we came to a decision to demolishing those houses completely.

We did not waste time. After the meeting, we had to get some hammers and some powerful objects to demolish those houses that were in Hlongwani Section, including the other houses that I was not present when they were burnt down.

MR SHEIN: Is there anything further you wish to add about that particular incident?

MR MABUZA: There is nothing else.

MR SHEIN: The next incident that we will deal with, is the incident on the 17th of April 1994, at Mshayazafe hostel. Do you recall what happened there, this is regarding shooting with the police and members of the IFP and there was also an incident involving a member of the National Peacekeeping Force, do you remember that, will you please relate that to the Committee?

MR MABUZA: On that particular day, at the time we had our own walkie talkies, we got a message through this two way radio, all the units were called, all the units from Khatlehong were called to go and assist in Thokoza because the situation was bad there.

When we were still at Ncala Section, Ncala Section is actually facing Thokoza, I wonder if I can get something and make a diagram so that you can understand, because I think among the panellists, some of you don't know ...(indistinct).

ADV GCABASHE: No, we actually have been on an inspection in loco, we have been to the area, we've got a big map in the back. If you could remember the new name for Ncala, that would help us, because we are always trying to match the old and the new names, as you have done with your Section for us.

We will be okay, thank you.

MR MABUZA: Okay, I will try and explain. All the units from Khatlehong were out, we were on our home to Mshayazafe hostel. When you move from Khatlehong to Thokoza, you would see if that was Inkatha terrain, because the power stations were painted. If you are working in an ANC terrain, you would see the colours on the power stations.

If you were a youngster, like myself, even if you get lost on walking on the IFP terrain, you would see their colours on the power stations.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean that people would paint the colours of the IFP flag, on some of the structures, the buildings and things and the ANC people would do likewise in their strongholds?

MR MABUZA: Yes, the reason was to make people to be aware where to go if you are an ANC member, you must know where to walk, and then they would see the power stations painted.

If you happen to get lost, and you land at an IFP territory, you would see the buildings were painted in IFP colours. On that particular day we met at Ncala Section and Mavimbela Section.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for my own clarity, was that the colours that were used for those two respective flags, which were fairly close to each other? The IFP flag if I remember it correctly ...

MR MABUZA: Even today, the other places are still painted like that, they are not yet changed. The colours on the power stations, are not yet changed.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was exactly like the colours appear on the IFP flag, which as I have said, to the best of my recollection is fairly close to the black, green and gold of the ANC? I seem to recall that it was a cause of some confusion amongst some people.

Are you saying that they used those colours exactly to indicate which is ANC area, and which is IFP area?

MR MABUZA: Yes, they were using those colours. But no one who is staying in Khatlehong, who doesn't know the ANC colour or IFP colour. You were forced to know it during those days because the situation was very bad.

The people who did not know the colours, would get injured, but the people who knew, I knew very well that if I am going to Thokoza, visiting someone, I know where to go and what route to take.

On that particular day we met at Ncala Section and Mavimbela Section. Those are the Sections that are facing Thokoza. That is where you get a road that is actually demarcating Thokoza from Khatlehong.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us - the one is Ncala, what is the other Section called?

MR MABUZA: Mavimbela Section.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that there is a street that separates Khatlehong from Thokoza?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that road is called Schoeman Road.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you gathering?

MR MABUZA: On that particular day we were supposed to meet there, because we couldn't just go to Thokoza, jump to Thokoza that is next to Penduga Section. Penduga is in Thokoza and we had to fight, we had to confront this people from Schoeman Road, and we would push them backwards until we get straight to the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: On your way to the hostel, you had to move ...

MR MABUZA: Just before you get to the hostel, you have to pass a few streets. The street that I have mentioned. Between Schoeman Road, the Schoeman Road was the boundary between the ANC and the IFP, we had to fight the people who were nearer to the boundary.

If they ran to another street, the following street, we had to occupy that area also and try to fight them, until they leave, they run away from that street. That is when the 20 houses were set alight, were burnt down. That was on that particular day.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just clarify this for me? So you confronted the IFP on Schoeman Street and you pushed them back and as you pushed them back, you burnt the houses which you came across, which were their houses, and you kept pushing them back towards the hostel, is that what you are saying?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Were their houses in Penduga, the houses that you burnt, those 20 that were on that border with Schoeman, is that the beginning of Penduga?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct. That is where we started burning their houses, we started with the first row. The other thing that I want to explain is this, where I used to stay is a bit far from the hostel. The people who were staying in the houses that were next to the hostel, just opposite the hostel, they ran away, they left their houses and went to a place where I was staying, because at least we were not yet hound.

Those were the people who were helping us in identifying the IFP members. If they said this house belongs to an IFP member, then we would set that house alight.

After having pushed these people, we were now right in the middle of Thokoza, their stronghold. Whilst we were there, we heard gunshots coming from the direction of the hostel, because we were now very much nearer, approaching the hostel.

This is when the hostel residents, as well as the people who were occupying the neighbouring houses, were shooting the National Peacekeeping Forces.

They were exchanging gunshots, or should I say shooting at the National Peacekeeping Forces, and the National Peacekeeping Force, was seemingly running out of steam as it were. We heard on television that there were members of MK and APLA within the Peace Keeping Force, we did not shoot at that group, we assisted them to attack the people who were shooting us from the houses and the neighbouring hostel.

We were now shooting alongside the National Peacekeeping Force, whom we had won their trust, or the trust of whom we had already won, and we proceeded shooting at the people from the hostel. I happened to run out of ammunition for my AK.

After that, I was standing in front of another Peacekeeping Force soldier, pointing to him where to shoot. This soldier ended up giving me his firearm, because he was not able to see the people that I was pointing out.

MR SHEIN: What kind of firearm was it?

MR MABUZA: It was a rifle.

MR SHEIN: Just give a better description of that, what type of rifle? Was it an AK47 or what type was it?

MR MABUZA: It was an R4. I used this rifle to fire a few shots.

MR SHEIN: What happened to the rifle after you fired these few shots? Did you give it to somebody?

MR MABUZA: I fled with this rifle after shooting.

ADV SANDI: Who were you shooting at?

MR MABUZA: I was shooting towards the Stability Unit as well as the IFP.

ADV SANDI: Did anything happen to those you were shooting at?

MR MABUZA: I wouldn't know because I would not have crossed to the other side from where they were shooting us.

ADV SANDI: That is not very clear to me. Did you bullets, the bullets that were flowing out of your rifle, did they hit, did they injure or kill anyone of the members of the IFP or the Stability Unit?

MR MABUZA: I am trying to explain exactly that Chairperson. I was shooting, I could not have seen them or I didn't see them clearly, they were shooting. One would not take notice of everything that was happening every minute.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on please.

MR SHEIN: Can you remember what happened to that R4 rifle which you got from the member of the National Peacekeeping Force?

MR MABUZA: I used that R4 for quite a while, and it so happened on our way to the funeral of one of our comrades, we happened to be surrounded by soldiers, because we were shooting in the air for a gun salute, and after surrounding us, they opened only one exit through which all of us had to go.

I happened to drop this firearm in one of the graves that were unused. Later this incident was flighted on television during the news bulletins, indicating how many firearms were found and they did not specify how many shotguns and different kinds of firearms were found, but yes, they did indicate that firearms were found during an ANC member funeral, or during the funeral of a member of the ANC.

MR SHEIN: Of these weapons, is it correct that some of these weapons were confiscated by soldiers from the SADF?

MR MABUZA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Hold on. Some of which weapons, I am a little lost. Which ones are you talking about?

MR MABUZA: Here I am referring to the firearms that we were using, myself, Tsyetsi and others whose names I have mentioned.

The one firearm that I had, was not the only one. On taking receipt of the second rifle, or second firearm, I already had a firearm.

ADV SANDI: Was that the AK47?

MR MABUZA: That is correct. These people used to raid the township round about three o'clock in the morning, and they would search houses. This is where some of these firearms were found. We took some, if not most of these firearms to the police station when a call was made to that effect.

ADV SANDI: Just to ensure that we follow you correctly, you were in possession and control of two firearms. At first you had an AK47 which you used at the shooting at Mshayazafe hostel and on that day you were given an R4 rifle by one of the members of the National Peacekeeping Force. In relation to you, we are only talking about two rifles, is that so?

MR MABUZA: Would you please repeat your question, it is not quite clear to me.

When I took receipt of the R4, I already had a firearm that had run out of bullets or ammunition, and I then was given this second one and I explained how I lost possession of this R4 and I also explained how I also lost possession of the AK47 assault rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you lose the AK47?

MR MABUZA: We went to school, to Pumlani School one day and when we arrived there, each one of us had their own firearms so to speak.

We handed these to our commanders, all of us.

CHAIRPERSON: So the AK47 was handed in as part of that call to hand in arms, and the R4 rifle was dropped in an unused grave and what happened to the pistol that was confiscated from the criminals?

MR MABUZA: The pistol was taken from Tsyetsi by the police. I used to use the pistol during the day sometimes, and I would use the AK47 assault rifle or the R4 during the night. We did not trust one another as the community, because it so happened sometimes that the information within the community, would be leaked to the enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: So, the pistol and that AK47, was that handed out to different members of the SDU at different times, so it wasn't permanently in your possession, it was used by other members of the SDU as well?

MR MABUZA: I would be patrolling during the night with the AK47 and in the morning, I would hand it over to the ones who would be patrolling through the day. The fighting was continuous in the township.

Then I would be using the pistol. Coming back for a second round of patrol during the night, we would swop these firearms. I did indicate that we were not a fully armed group.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, that is more clear to me. All right, we interrupted you. You can carry on with your evidence?

MR SHEIN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mabuza, we are going back to 1973 and will you please first of all give details of the problems regarding the train which travelled from kwaZihne station through to Pylot station, can you just briefly tell the Committee what happened with that train, and then we will deal with what you did about it.

ADV GCABASHE: Can we just correct this, 1993 not 1973?

MR SHEIN: This is going back to 1993, the problems with the train travelling to kwaZihne hostel. If you can just relate that to the Committee.

MR MABUZA: In so far as the train is concerned, you would have Hlongwani Section here and followed by Ndlasi Section. I will try to explain this, I don't know how to put this, but I will give you examples to be able to figure out how far I stay from the station.

The train would be for example travelling on the rail as far as where these people are sitting, and you would have houses here on the stage. I think the station was closed around 1990 and 1992 and each time the train came passed Pylot station, one would be stopped by this Inkatha people and when the train was near Ndlasi or Hlongwani Section, one would be thrown out of the train window by these people.

We would see this happening after every two days, people being thrown out of the moving train, through the windows.

ADV SANDI: You say that would happen each time the train comes nearer to Ndlasi?

MR MABUZA: When the train came passed Hlongwani Section, that is my section, that is actually the last Section before the train can actually arrive to kwaZihne. These Sections are both in Zone 4.

These people actually knew that Hlongwani and Ndlasi are strongholds of the ANC and the PAC and the ANC are in good relations because the PAC would also assist the ANC. Every boy in the township would come and assist and these were the targets of the IFP.

We would hear stories about people being thrown out of the moving trains. I was within the Executive in Zone 4 and I was therefore well known. We would summon help or call for the ambulance, and we would also ask for the community to assist by taking the people or such a person to hospital.

We came to a conclusion as a community, that this has gone too far. We then started shooting the train each time it came passed.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just clarify this to me, it was Hlongwani, then Ndlasi station and after that, it would be going to kwaZihne?

MR MABUZA: No. That is why I said earlier on that this would be easier illustrated using a map, so that you better understand the Section. Ndlasi and Hlongwani Sections were our Sections, the train would travel passed Ndlasi and Hlongwani Section.

ADV GCABASHE: But which would be the next station, I am just trying to understand who you were shooting at? If you were shooting from an ANC stronghold and the train is passing, who are the people who would be left in that train, because those are the people you would be shooting at?

MR MABUZA: The train would come from Germiston and stop at Khatlehong and Lindela stations, followed by Pylot station and you would have a bridge soon thereafter, a bridge that would lead to Hlongwani Section. These are the houses that are facing the railroad.

We know that each time the train would come passed, there is a likelihood that they would throw a person out of the moving train. It was the IFP that would be using the remaining distance.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, we are relying on your verbal explanation of this. You say that this train came from Germiston and then it would stop at Thokoza station and then, just go slow, where does it go to then?

MR MABUZA: I will try to explain this. The train would come from Germiston, so that the last station in Khatlehong is kwaZihne station, and this station is surrounded by hostels. When the train comes to a halt at kwaZihne station, obviously we would know that these are IFP members, the train was now being used by the IFP members only.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that is very clear. Just a minute, kwaZihne station would be the last one in Khatlehong, but you were explaining that there was a Thokoza station and then what other stations were there between Thokoza station and kwaZihne station? You had mentioned some names there, just repeat that.

MR MABUZA: Chairperson, I did not say Thokoza station, I am referring to Khatlehong station followed by Lindela station, followed by Pylot station, which is very much nearer where I stayed. Then would come kwaZihne station. That is the last station, which is next to the station, so that all the residents of the township would alight in the earlier stations, not the last one. No one who is a resident of the community, would proceed as far as the last station.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute sorry, so you shoot at this train between Pylot and kwaZihne stations, because you then gathered that whoever remained in that train, must be IFP people?

MR MABUZA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that is clear. Mr Shein?

MR SHEIN: You have now given an outline that, and it is quite clear that anyone on the train between Pylot and kwaZihne or anybody getting on the train at kwaZihne, up until Pylot, will only be members of IFP because they were hostel dwellers?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is what I said.

MR SHEIN: Right. Now, will you carry on and explain to the Committee what was decided, you would do about this problem with the train?

MR MABUZA: First of all, we concluded that the solution to the problem is that we know that from round about three o'clock when these people come back from work or from town, they would each time they came passed Pylot station, they would start their activities.

If they did not shoot from within that distance, they would throw a person out of the moving train. We as the community resolved that we too, should start shooting at the train.

MR SHEIN: Do you remember if the community complained to your SDU or to you being a member of the SDU, about this train and about your lack of any success in dealing with the train?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I was coming to that and I was stopped. We had a meeting one morning. They would wake up to dead bodies in the morning, these people were the ones whose houses were facing the railroad, and we decided to come up with a strategy to stop this from continuing.

We did not come up with a solution to the problem that day and shortly after the meeting, just when we were dispersing, the train appeared. As the train was approaching, the shooting from the train was continuing randomly. Elders of the community were now afraid of going to meetings at schools, because they were afraid of soldiers.

The train continued shooting and others like Aubrey and others who came to assist, members of the ANC from Soweto, they had come from Dube, that is the Dube office in Soweto, they came to assist us, and they had been posted in different areas.

They continued shooting at the train as it travelled passed.

ADV SANDI: Are you not really saying here these people from your side, were returning fire to those who were firing from the train?

MR MABUZA: Exactly.

MR SHEIN: Mr Mabuza, for this problem with the train, could the community at the time not get the assistance of the authorities, that is the police and the Defence Force? What was the problem there?

MR MABUZA: The police as well as the soldiers came to harass instead of assisting us. That is the only thing they did. We did not get any help from them, and that is why as a result, the community decided that the SDU's should be assisted by the community itself.

The SDU's were protecting the community and therefore the community would purchase firearms for the SDU's. I was still explaining to you about the meeting, the end of the meeting. The train travelled or moved passed shortly after the meeting, and we exchanged gunfire. The community was angry.

We decided to go to the railroad as a community, myself included. We counted three times and we pushed the railroad and we bent it.

MR SHEIN: Will you please give a bit more detail on how you managed to actually cause this damage or destruction to the railway line, what you and your comrades actually did?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I would take my time explaining because the panel is taking notes.

We went to the railroad as the community and we took the first line, we also used hammers. We counted three times, and we bent the railroad or the rail itself, but that didn't help us in any way.

That did not help because there are two rail lines, so that the rail lines, are such that trains can travel from opposite directions at the same time, without interfering with each other, but yes, the throwing of people out of moving trains, continued incessantly.

The train was now using only one rail line, to and from kwaZihne and this shooting and the throwing of people, continued.

It so happened one day, I was at Ndlasi Section, the Section in Zone 4. The people at Ndlasi were discussing the same problem and trying to come up with a solution. It was decided that the rail line should be broken.

On taking that resolve, we took a cutting torch from some of the Shangaan speaking or Tsonga speaking group and we went straight to the rail line. We used this cutting torch to break down this rail line, or to cut this rail line.

We did not remove the one piece that we had cut from the line, we just left it there to appear as if there was nothing wrong with the line.

This piece remained, the train came as usual and when the train came to the spot, two coaches were derailed, and as this was happening, the shooting was going on.

ADV SANDI: Who was shooting?

MR MABUZA: The people in the train started shooting from Hlongwani Section and when they came to Ndlasi, and started experiencing the problem with the train, they stopped shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on please.

MR MABUZA: Two coaches were derailed, that is the driver's engine and the ticket examiner's coach. They were completely derailed. The Stability Unit as well as soldiers were on the scene within an hour.

When the Stability Unit as well as the soldiers arrived, there was an exchange of gunfire between ourselves and this didn't take long, but we fled and went back to where we came from.

ADV SANDI: Who was the first to shoot at the other between the two groups, your group on the one hand and members of the ISU and soldiers?

MR MABUZA: The soldiers as well as the Stability Unit came at a time when the gunshots were continuing, directed at the train. When they arrived, we also directed the shots towards them.

After that, we went to Hlongwani Section and we watched over as the soldiers were now guarding the two coaches that had been derailed. After a while, a steam train came and tried to pull these derailed coaches, and when this steam train moved passed Hlongwani Section, is that there were many police inside the coaches and this really disturbed me, we started wondering why there were not so many police when people were thrown out of the trains.

This steam train managed to pull these trains from the wreckage, except for the two coaches. These coaches stayed there day and night and they were always under guard. The members of the Stability Unit as well as the soldiers were the ones who would normally guard these two coaches.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, you can carry on.

MR MABUZA: The community for which we were working, was excited, it was thrilled that day. Excited and thrilled with the knowledge that the train would no longer travel that route again.

After a few days, yes, I think it was after a few days, there was this ANC march, a march which was headed for Enyoni Park and when people came back from the march, that is the entire community, the soldiers had been posted to guard, to watch over the two coaches, they left these two coaches and rushed for the people who were coming from the march, people who were shooting in the air.

And when they went to the marchers, we instead went to the two coaches and we set them alight.

MR SHEIN: How did you set them alight?

MR MABUZA: We poured petrol and one would set the two coaches alight from this end, and the other one from the other end.

MR SHEIN: Can you remember who assisted you in that?

MR MABUZA: If I think, if I remember very well, I think I was assisted by Aubrey Ngwenya.

MR SHEIN: Was it just the two of you who burnt that train down or were there others?

MR MABUZA: As I have indicated earlier on, trying to show you how the situation was, there were others whom I know, whom I can point out, but others are the ones who had fled from the houses neighbouring the hostel to my Section.

These are people who were very, very angry about the whole situation.

MR SHEIN: The last incident Mr Mabuza, which you wish to relate is the incident with the police on the way to the funeral of the late Chris Hani.

MR MABUZA: We were from the FNB stadium that day, even though I can't remember very well what cemeteries we went to, but the cemeteries are in the ...(indistinct). We travelled in a bus and when we arrived at the cemetery, we alighted, but I did not manage to get to the side of the grave itself.

We saw a police van which we pelted with stones. It ultimately came to a halt. The police got off and ran away and on opening the door, I saw this tear gas gun. I then found this gun and I took it.

There were papers in the vehicle, there were many of us who had opened the rear side and everybody was opening everywhere, and I set these papers alight.

After that, I ran away, by which time the vehicle was really catching fire.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, you can proceed.

MR SHEIN: After the Hani funeral, what was the mood of yourself and people that you were with?

MR MABUZA: We were extremely angry, we could have done anything.

MR SHEIN: Mr Mabuza, in all these incidents in which you took part, are you aware of any individual who as a result of what you did, of your actions, lost their life or suffered from injuries?

MR MABUZA: In all the incidents in which I was involved, I would not say there is anybody that I can point to as having died or got injured as a result of my hand. I would not go into the train to see if there was anybody injured, dying, I would not have taken that chance, it was too risky.

MR SHEIN: You do agree that there is a chance that it is possible that people were injured or even lost their lives as a result of what you did? The possibility exists?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I would agree with that even though I have no knowledge to that effect.

MR SHEIN: In so far as possible victims of your victims, we know that there are victims who suffered damage to property, whose houses were burnt, and we also know of this person Bazuka whose clothing and possessions you destroyed by fire, have you got anything now to say to these people?

MR MABUZA: To those whose belongings I burnt down, and many others who may suffer trauma as a result of my hand, to them I would like to ask for forgiveness.

I am not asking for forgiveness in so far as my duties in my effort to keep my community safe, so that it should not suffer at the hands of apartheid, I am not asking for forgiveness in so far as that is concerned.

MR SHEIN: Mr Mabuza, is it correct that you are now serving the community of Khatlehong and will you tell the Committee in what way you are serving the Khatlehong community, that is what you do for a living today?

MR MABUZA: I would like to explain to the Commission that I am a police as Khatlehong and I was prompted to be a police at Khatlehong, because I realised that the older police or the then police, were not doing as well as they were expected by the community. They did not protect the community.

MR SHEIN: That is evidence in chief Mr Chairman and learned Commissioners.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mabuza, is it correct that you submitted an application form for amnesty to the Amnesty Committee?

MR MABUZA: Chairperson, would you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that you have submitted an amnesty application, applying for amnesty, to the Amnesty Committee?

MR MABUZA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And a copy of that application form is placed before this panel, do you confirm that that is in fact your application form?

MR MABUZA: Yes, I would confirm that if it is the one that is in possession of my lawyer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is one copies of which have been handed to us. Are you asking for us to consider your application in spite of the fact that one of the formalities, namely that the form should be signed by a Commissioner of Oaths, have not been complied with?

Have you followed that question?

MR MABUZA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, I will repeat it. Are you asking that your application should be considered in spite of the fact that one of the formalities, namely that the form should be signed by a Commissioner of Oaths, have not been complied with?

MR MABUZA: Yes, it is as you put it. My appeal to you is that you as the Commission, be kind enough to consider my application.

MR SHEIN: I would also submit with the greatest respect sir, that there has been full compliance with the provisions of Section 29(1)(a), (b) and (c) and that this Committee see fit to grant amnesty to the applicant sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take that argument as soon as we have finished with the evidence. Is there any questions Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mabuza, on the first day you went to look for Bazuka and Oci, what happened to those women and children who were in that house? You say they got out of the house?

MR MABUZA: The women and children went out of the house and they stood in the street. The community was very furious, nothing happened to them, they are still alive.

ADV SANDI: I notice that you keep on saying whenever you relate all these incidents, you keep on saying we did this, you go on to say we went on to do this and that. Can I assume that whenever you say we, you are referring to yourselves as a mob, were you a mob? Were you operating as a mob during all the time you were doing all these things?

MR MABUZA: My apology. I would like for the Chairperson to ask me questions per item, so that I will be in the position to relate which persons were present when which incident occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before that happens, it depends on my colleague whether he wants to do that, would it be correct to understand your evidence that all of these things that you did, that you related to us, you have done in your capacity as a member of the Khatlehong Self Defence Unit?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The Self Defence Unit, as you had indicated, was it acting on instructions either from the community and or from the Commander of the Unit?

MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Okay, let us go to the day when, the day of the funeral of the late Mr Chris Hani, what happened to the police who were in that vehicle, did they run away, were they shot at, were they attacked?

MR MABUZA: Some yes, were running after them, but I remained behind and took care of the car, I don't know what happened to the police eventually.

ADV SANDI: You said the two coaches were burnt with petrol. Can I assume that you used petrol to burn the railway line?

MR MABUZA: We used petrol to burn down the coaches.

ADV SANDI: What did you use to burn down the railway line, that was before you burnt down the coaches?

MR MABUZA: We did not burn the railway line, we broke it, using the cutting torch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I also - I am not sure exactly what you were saying, I obviously cannot understand the original language that you are using, but I couldn't say whether the Interpreter was saying that you bent the line or that you burnt the line?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, as a matter of correction, bent, not burnt.

MR MABUZA: The person who is asking me the question says what did I use to burn the railway line, and he earlier on asked me what I used to burn the two coaches.

I used petrol and matches. We did not burn the rail line, we broke it down, using the cutting torch and we bent it.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Interpreter. Mr Mabuza, that was not your problem, he has explained it. Thank you very much. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any re-examination Mr Shein?

MR SHEIN: I have nothing, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to address us on the merits of the application Mr Shein?

MR SHEIN IN ARGUMENT: I am Mr Chairman. Sir, I would submit that firstly the application now clearly, it has been cured, and it is now in compliance with the requirements of the Act.

Mr Chairman, the acts for which the applicant or to which this application relates, associated with a political objective committed in the course of the conflicts of the past, and also in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) and (3).

I submit clearly as well that, the applicant has made a complete full disclosure of everything that is relevant. He hasn't left anything out, he has openly given a full account of everything, and lastly although this is not a requirement, he has also clearly shown his remorse to the victims.

I submit that in this circumstances, amnesty should be granted to this applicant. If there is anything else that the Commission would like me to address it on, in specific to any act, I would do so gladly sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please, can I ask you just to by way of very brief summary, just run through the incidents that you submit the applicant should be given amnesty for.

Just give us the date and just the very briefest of circumstances.

MR SHEIN: Firstly sir, the crime of either arson or alternatively malicious damage to property, committed during 1993, at house 256 Khatlehong.

According to the applicant, the house was an IFP house. He honestly gives his intentions, his intentions were to go to that house, and if he found any male IFP members, to kill them.

They had very shortly before that, viewed a house being burnt down and quite clearly political tensions between the applicant and his political enemies, the IFP, were high. What is also further significant is that no injuries were inflicted on the women and children who were occupying that house.

They were looking for a certain person, or for certain people amongst them, Bazuka and Oci. Even though this house was burnt down, and Bazuka wasn't found there, the quest for him didn't end and he has related the incident later at the place where Bazuka was living and where the applicant took Bazuka's possessions and burnt them in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that address again Mr Shein?

MR SHEIN: It was a house in Ngema Section, the house where applicant's sister resided. The owner of the house, in fact, what was going to happen was applicant and his group would have burnt down the shack occupied by Bazuka, but because the owner of the shack was well known to the applicant, he took the clothing and possessions of Bazuka and burnt them in the street.

Then Mr Chairman, the second incident of either arson or malicious damage to property, would be the incident at 61 Hlongwani Section, Khatlehong. This is clearly I submit an action with every political intention. The intention was to disarm a member of the police and clearly the community for protection, needed weapons.

In that incident, IFP cards and paraphernalia were discovered. The applicant in that incident, I would submit, clearly played a major role in inciting this mob to burn down the house and outside rooms.

The applicant for the same political motive, went later with a hammer and completed the demolition which they believed was keeping a criminal element out.

The applicant's account of the incident on the 17th of April, very shortly before the election, the third incident sir, the one at Mshayazafe hostel, I submit with respect, the applicant shows a clear biased on the part of the authorities or the authority forces, being the SADF and the SAP or the Internal Stability Unit. It also highlights the tensions at the time, and the alignment or possible alignment that the National Peacekeeping Force could have taken. He was given a weapon, had no authority to possess this weapon, given an R4 by a member of the National Peacekeeping Force and that weapon was used I submit with the greatest respect, by the applicant in protection of the community and in furthering the interests and aims of the particular Self Defence Unit.

I also at this juncture wish to state that the applicant would deserve amnesty for the offence of possession of an unlicensed firearm or firearms and ammunitions for those firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: So you submit that is an independent act for which amnesty is sought?

MR SHEIN: It is an additional act Mr Chairman, although not constituting any violation of human rights. It would also be an act for which the applicant should be entitled to receive amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just list those arms.

MR SHEIN: Sir, it was an AK47, an unknown amount of ammunition that can be fired from an AK47, and various pistols, possibly included in that would be revolvers.

I would submit that the applicant cannot give or even be expected in the circumstances, to give very detailed, accurate account of these weapons, because it is quite clear in the period of time, there were numerous weapons involved.

Ii would submit that he has made a full disclosure as he could possibly make in the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there ammunition possessed together with the assortment of pistols or and revolvers?

MR SHEIN: There was ammunition possessed for the various weapons that were possessed.

CHAIRPERSON: And you want the possession of the R4 weapon as well?

MR SHEIN: For the time that he had it, certainly sir.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems with ammunition, because he had fired from that weapon?

MR SHEIN: Clearly there was ammunition in the weapon that was given to him.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, what other incidents are there?

MR SHEIN: Mr Chairman, lastly the incident regarding the train from kwaZihne hostel.

Quite clearly, the motive has been established, it is a political motive. I would go further sir, to ask you to find the significant factor that the Self Defence Unit, the community who were in a war situation, who were being shot at by a train, could do absolutely nothing that any community could expect to do, and that is to enlist the help of the authorities.

Quite clearly sir, the community wee under the impression, I would go further and say, the justified impression that the authorities were in fact their enemies. This train had to be stopped and I submit that from his account, amnesty for either sabotage, malicious damage to property or any other statutory offence, which might exist, relating to Spoornet, amnesty for any of those offences should be granted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it does appear that although the conduct in a sense, one could say, was directed at a train and at a railway line, it seems to be really in furtherance of that ongoing conflict with the opposing forces, because it seems as if all of this was aimed at somehow eliminating the attacks, that were coming from the opposing forces.

MR SHEIN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I would submit the applicant saw this train, this was the vehicle that brought their attackers and I would submit that the belief was then that this vehicle, the train, should be stopped, clearly shows political motive.

The fact that shots were fired at the train, the fact that people might have, we don't know, might have been injured, lives might have been lost, I would submit that further to these acts, the possible amnesty for attempted murder should also apply here, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be in respect of all those incidents where shots were fired from a firearm?

MR SHEIN: In respect of all the incidents where shots were fired, sir. Lastly Mr Chairman, I submit that the applicant has also made full disclosure for the incident after the funeral of the late Chris Hani.

It must be noted that passions, political tensions, political passions on that day, were possibly amongst the highest of all days during the run up to the elections sir.

I submit that factor would also be significant.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the offences that are involved here, in this incident?

MR MABUZA: The possible offences here would be the malicious damage to property and possibly statutory offences relating to the police, the old Police Act, would have applied at the time. I would submit that the throwing of stones at the police vehicle would have amounted to a malicious damage to property as well. The stones probably did cause damage.

And also I would submit offences under the Firearms Act, relating to the teargas pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: That would have been an unlawful possession, would it?

MR SHEIN: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that stoning possibly entail a public violence offence as well?

MR SHEIN: Sir, I would concede that public violence is the offence that the throwing of stones would have been.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else?

MR SHEIN: Sir, I would submit that there has been full compliance with Sections 20(1)(a), (b) and (c) and that the applicant ought to be granted amnesty. Thank you sir, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Shein. Adv Steenkamp, any submissions?

ADV STEENKAMP IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, maybe just for the record, regarding the victims' position, I have neglected to inform you that houses 256 and 61 was actually visited in order to get further information of the existence of the victims and what has happened to them.

I am informed that both those houses are fully destroyed, and none of those victims could be traced at all. This is house 256 and house 61. Thank you sir. I have no further submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Well, that concludes this application. We will consider the matter and indicate to Mr Shein as soon as we are in a position to release our decision on this particular matter.

The decision would accordingly be reserved. We will now adjourn for lunch and then we will reconvene at two o'clock.

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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonkalane Moses Mabena, it is application AM7760/97. The applicant is represented by Mr Shein. Are there any formalities that we have to deal with or can we proceed and take the testimony?

MR SHEIN: There is no formalities Mr Chairman, save to say that I am Lawley Shein, Attorney from Johannesburg, representing the applicant and the applicant can be sworn in, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I be so rude, I am sorry, I apologise, Mr Chairman, there is the question of the Section 19(4) notices.

Because this application did not form part of the original hearing material, I think I have to inform you that one of the interested parties, if you can call him that, Mr Van Zyl, at the time was a Sergeant, his statement does appear in the bundle, I think he was a complainant in this matter if I am not mistaken, we did manage to get hold of Mr Van Zyl, he informed me that he has no objection for the application of Mr Mabena, and he is not prepared at this stage to either testify or oppose the application as it stands.

Furthermore, as far as we could establish Mr Chairman, there was no human rights violations, well, no victims were present at this incident at all, so as far as we are concerned Mr Chairman, the requirement of Section 19(4) was then met, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Adv Steenkamp. To the extent that it is necessary to do so, the Act vests a discretion in the Committee to decide whether or not to hear matters which don't concern a gross violation of human rights, at a public hearing or not.

In the particular circumstances of this matter, Adv Steenkamp has indicated that as things stand at this stage, there does not appear to have been any gross violation of human rights in this incident, but in all the circumstances, we are satisfied that we ought to exercise our discretion to deal with this matter at this session, and to dispose of it as promptly as possible, given the fact that the applicant appears to be serving a sentence of imprisonment, arising from the subject matter of this amnesty application.

Under those circumstances, we are proceeding to hear the matter at this public hearing. Mr Mabena, won't you please rise and then give your full names for the record? Can you give us your full names?

MR MABENA: Sonkalane Moses Mabena.

SONKALANE MOSES MABENA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down. Mr Shein?

EXAMINATION BY MR SHEIN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mabena, you are making application for amnesty for the following, that is for attempted murder, the unlawful possession of a firearm and ammunition, is that correct?

MR MABENA: That is correct.

MR SHEIN: Furthermore, Mr Mabena you were tried and found guilty on a charge of attempted murder. The complainant in that particular case was a Sergeant at the time, Jan van Zyl, and also you were convicted of the unlawful possession of a firearm and ammunition, is that correct?

MR MABENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: You were sentenced as follows, according to your instructions, you were sentenced to five years for the charge of attempted murder, two years imprisonment for the possession of the unlicensed firearm and one year imprisonment for the ammunition. You are serving a total of eight years at the Modabi prison.

MR MABENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: Just to add further background, you did appeal against your conviction. The appeal was not successful and you have been serving your sentence since March last year?

MR MABENA: That is correct.

MR SHEIN: Dealing with the incident as such, is it correct that you were a member of the ANC as well as the Self Defence Unit?

MR MABENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: Now, can you just briefly, at the time, in the early 1990's, you agree that there was great political tension, political violence and as a member of the ANC, you regarded members of the IFP as being your political enemies?

MR MABENA: That is correct.

MR SHEIN: Will you tell this Committee also what your attitude was at the time, to members of the South African Police?

MR MABENA: They were not able to set us apart, instead, they were taking sides, siding with the IFP members, so that our community found ourselves, or found itself in a difficult position, and each time we went to the police to appeal for help or complain, they did not seem to be sympathetic. They would pretend to be sympathetic, but later, do nothing about that.

I later on decided to join the SDU's seeing that the police were not being helpful.

MR SHEIN: As a result of what you have said, would you say that the community and yourself, also regarded the police at the time, as your enemy?

MR MABENA: That is correct.

MR SHEIN: In your own words, could you please relate to this Committee the incident that occurred on the 5th of November 1992?

MR MABENA: On the 5th of November 1992, I was with my colleagues, patrolling in the township. We normally used to have our bases where we would leave certain people behind, who would take care of the situation in our absence, such as in attacks.

I happened to receive a phone call from Mr Mgoni, to the effect that the Emasimini base had been attacked, and our members injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabena, just a minute, I am just trying to take down the information that you are giving. You are saying that you received a telephone call, from whom did you receive that call?

MR MABENA: It was Mr Mgoni, Sam Mgoni.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did Mr Mgoni tell you?

MR MABENA: He told me that our members had been attacked by members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that your members, which members are you referring to?

MR MABENA: I am referring to members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: Which particular SDU was that?

MR MABENA: It is the kwaThema branch of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So you received this telephone call, what then happened?

MR MABENA: I rushed to the scene and on arrival indeed, our members were injured. I had to rush them to hospital to Polisong, that is the Polisong Hospital in Tsakani.

I think the time was about roundabout seven o'clock or thereabouts, I took them to hospital and I waited for them, to make sure that they were given attention.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this seven in the evening, or seven in the morning?

MR MABENA: It was in the evening. On arrival at the hospital, I waited for them, to make sure that they were attended to and soon thereafter I left. I think I spent quite a while at the hospital, I left the hospital at about twenty to eleven.

I was in the company of other two of our members, Daniel Randla is one of them, as well as Debugo Mudle. On my way back from the hospital, I dropped these two members at Vergenoeg, one of our Sections, it is also known as Pelindaba.

On my way home, I noticed a car that was tailing me with its headlamps off. I tried to speed up and it followed closer. I wanted to make sure, satisfy myself that this car was tailing me. I took a corner, I took the Gelitsani Road and indeed, the car pursued me.

I stopped the vehicle at the corner of Gatswana and Gelitsani and I went to a certain house and on entering the premises of the house, I started shooting towards the vehicle that was pursuing me.

When I looked behind me, I realised that there was no escape. That is when I realised that the people whom I was shooting at, were police. As a result of my being cornered, I handed myself over, because they could have easily killed me. I handed myself over.

MR SHEIN: Mr Mabena, is it correct that when you fired the shot, your life as such, was not in danger from anybody?

MR MABENA: That is correct.

MR SHEIN: Do you concede that by firing a shot, the way you did, you in fact did commit the crime of attempted murder because the purpose was to try and kill someone?

MR MABENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHEIN: Even though you felt threatened by Inkatha, you were of the opinion that there were people following you from Inkatha who were intent on killing you. Even though you considered the police to be your enemy, is it correct that this, these particular police in the vehicle that was following you without lights, they themselves were as such no threat t your life or to your safety?

MR MABENA: In so far as we knew, the police were our enemy as well. They too were within the same bunch of our enemies.

MR SHEIN: All right, but from the actual members of the police that were pursuing you, was there actually any attempt made by them against you, either to shoot you or to harm you in anyway? Had there been any attempt, besides them following you?

MR MABENA: The speed at which they were tailing me, put me in a very difficult position. I thought they were coming to attack me.

MR SHEIN: But it was later, you were satisfied that those thoughts that you had, were not correct?

MR MABENA: Yes, that is correct. I ended up submitting this application for amnesty.

MR SHEIN: We have already heard that the complainant in your case, Inspector Jan van Zyl, does not wish to oppose your application for amnesty. Is there anything which you would like to say to Jan van Zyl, even though you did not actually harm him because your shot at him did not harm him?

MR MABENA: I would like to profusely apologise to him. It was because of the circumstances in which we lived.

MR SHEIN: Is there anything further that you wish to add to this?

MR MABENA: No, I think that suffices.

MR SHEIN: That is the evidence in chief of this applicant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Shein. Mr Mabena, what kind of firearm did you have in your possession?

MR MABENA: I had two firearms actually. I had a Z88 and a revolver, a 357.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those firearms the property of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MABENA: One of these firearms was mine, and the other one, was supposed to have been given to one of our members, because that one was illegal. I had a legal firearm that belonged to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one was your legal firearm of those two?

MR MABENA: It was the revolver, the 357 revolver.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you charged for having possessed the Z88 without a licence?

MR MABENA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was there ammunition in that Z88 as well that you possessed?

MR MABENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand you correctly, you say you possessed the Z88 and the ammunition in connection with the Self Defence Unit activities?

MR MABENA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The vehicle that was behind you, was it an ordinary vehicle, it was not a police van or a vehicle with a blue light on that identified it as a police vehicle?

MR MABENA: No, it was an ordinary vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, thank you. Any questions Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Yes, just one. Mr Mabena, when you saw this vehicle following you, who did you think was following you?

MR MABENA: I thought I was being pursued or followed by members of the IFP.

ADV SANDI: When you opened fire on these people, which direction did you fire in?

MR MABENA: I shot towards the enemies.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: And did they fire back at any stage before they arrested you?

MR MABENA: No, they didn't.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Mabena, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Shein, any re-examination?

MR SHEIN: I have no re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any submissions on the merits, Mr Shein?

MR SHEIN IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, I would submit that very significant in this application, is the fact that the so-called victim or complainant, Jan van Zyl, a member of the police, has chosen, he says he does not oppose, he will not attend this hearing to oppose and I submit in those circumstances, this Commission should regard that if a member of the police does decide to do that, then I would ask this Commission to regard that action as an approval of his application for amnesty.

It is more, I submit with the greatest respect, than just a passive not going to take part in the proceedings, which might be suggested. If a member of the police decides to embark on that, it should be clear that he in fact agrees that the applicant before you, should be granted amnesty.

I will further submit that the actions or the action, the actual attempt to shoot at his pursuer, quite clearly, he was correctly convicted. It is clearly attempted murder on the part of the applicant, but that action is coupled with, it is a political action, it is fully in accordance with the provisions of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, it is clearly I submit associated with a political objective, and I submit with the greatest respect, that the applicant has made full disclosure of it.

We already mentioned the significance of the complainant's attitude and I submit that because the applicant is serving a sentence for this offence, that he should be granted amnesty as soon as possible. I have nothing further to add sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any submissions Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, I am informed by the Investigation Unit, that the facts that was submitted by the applicant, is consistent with the findings of the Investigation Unit, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a brief adjournment.

SONKALANE MOSES MABENA : AM7760/97

CHAIRPERSON: The following is the decision of the Committee in respect of the application of Sonkalane Moses Mabena:

The applicant is Sonkalane Moses Mabena, who is presently serving a sentence of an effective seven years' imprisonment, in the Modabi prison in respect of an incident which happened on the 5th of November 1992, which has been described more fully in the applicant's testimony before us today and to which reference is made in the papers before us, relating to the amnesty application.

Apart from the amnesty application form, we have also been furnished with relevant extracts from the police docket in respect of this matter, which amongst other things, contains the statement of one Sergeant Jan Albert van Zyl, who was a member of the then South African Police.

The incident in question happened in kwaThema and the circumstances surrounding the particular incident, are common cause between both Mr Van Zyl, who was the applicant in a criminal trial that resulted from the incident, as well as the applicant.

Very briefly, on the day in question, at approximately 19H00 the applicant was contacted telephonically by Mr Sam Mgoni, who informed him that members of his Self Defence Unit, kwaThema of which the applicant is also a member, have been attacked by members or supporters of the Inkatha Freedom Party.

The applicant rushed to the scene of the incident, where he discovered that some of these fellow members of the Self Defence Unit, have in fact been injured as reported to him, and he assisted in having them hospitalised and assisted in getting medical treatment for their injuries.

Applicant indicated that he had spent a considerable period of time at the hospital, where the injured were being attended to. And he left the hospital later that evening, at approximately 22H40. On his way home, together with two other members of the Self Defence Unit, whom he had dropped on his way, as he was travelling home, after having dropped off the persons who had been riding with him, he noticed that a private vehicle without headlights or the headlights not switched on, was following him at a considerable speed, which alarmed him, and led him to the belief that he was being pursued by members of the Inkatha Freedom Party, who were about to launch an attack on him.

After having in fact, satisfied himself that the vehicle was in fact following him, he stopped his own vehicle, got out, entered a nearby premises and fired a shot at the attackers.

He realised at some subsequent stage that the people in the vehicle that had been following him, were in fact members of the police, and given the fact that he was cornered, he handed himself over and he was arrested.

Pursuant to this incident, the applicant was charged with one count of attempted murder in respect of which Sergeant Van Zyl was the complainant, as well as with one count of the unlawful possession of a firearm, in this instance, a Z88 pistol, as well as the unlawful possession of ammunition, intended to be fired from the Z88 pistol.

The applicant was convicted as charged, and he was given the effective eight years' imprisonment that I have referred to earlier.

In fact, according to the papers before us, he has been sentenced to what appears on the face of it, to be a heavy sentence of seven years' imprisonment in respect of the attempted murder count, two years' imprisonment in respect of the unlawful possession of the Z88 pistol and six months' imprisonment in respect of the unlawful possession of ammunition.

One year, it appears, of the sentence in respect of the firearm and ammunition, was added to the sentence in respect of the attempted murder count, the remainder of the sentence in respect of these two counts, running concurrently with the sentence on the attempted murder, resulting in the eight years' effective imprisonment.

What could be regarded as the possible victim or interested party in this application, Sergeant Van Zyl, was contacted and notified of this application, and the fact that it was being heard by this panel. It was placed on record by Adv Steenkamp who appears as the Leader of Evidence at these proceedings, that Sergeant Van Zyl has effectively indicated that he has no wish to attend these proceedings, to testify or in fact to oppose the applicant's application for amnesty in this matter.

As I have indicated in any event, it appears quite abundantly that there is no real material factual dispute between the versions of Sergeant Van Zyl or the applicant in respect of the particular incident.

It is also clear that this incident happened at a stage when the particular area where all this happened, was gripped in very severe and intense violence and a political conflict which involved members or supporters of the African National Congress and members or supporters of the Inkatha Freedom Party.

This panel has been in session for the past approximately two and a half weeks, and have been hearing applications from various people who had been somehow or the other, engaged in this particular conflict and has through that testimony been given an indication of the extent and the destruction and havoc that was reeked in the area in question, by this conflict.

We are satisfied on the evidence and on the material that has been placed before us, that the incident in question arose entirely within the context of that political conflict. It is quite clear on the evidence that the possession of the Z88 pistol and the ammunition were directly linked to the activities of the kwaThema Self Defence Unit, and it was possessed by the applicant as a member of that Self Defence Unit, for use for the purposes and the objectives of the Self Defence Unit.

The shooting incident itself, is clearly directly linked to the prevailing situation of political conflict. The applicant having reasonably believed under the circumstances, where not so long before he was followed by this particular vehicle, members of this Self Defence Unit were attacked and injured by, on the information, members or supporters of the IFP, it is quite clear that the applicant under those circumstances, reasonably believed that he was about to be subjected to a similar attack by the same opposing forces.

We are accordingly satisfied in all the circumstances and having considered the evidence that was presented to us as well as the application and the documentary material, that the applicant should be granted amnesty as applied in respect of the counts for which he was convicted, namely attempted murder, the unlawful possession of a firearm and the unlawful possession of ammunition for which convictions he is serving his present term of imprisonment.

AMNESTY is then accordingly GRANTED to the applicant in respect of those counts.

ADV STEENKAMP: As you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, I assume that takes care of Mr Shein's matters?

ADV STEENKAMP: That is correct Mr Chairman. If you will allow, Mr Sibeko will be taking over from Mr Shein, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. You are excused Mr Shein and Mr Mabena as well, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we give Mr Sibeko an opportunity just to organise himself?

ADV STEENKAMP: If you would allow that Mr Chairman, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: The next matter is the application of Mr Buli David Gumbi. It is application AM7577/97. It appears at page 104 in the Lusaka B bundle, and Mr Sibeko is appearing for the applicant.

Mr Gumbi, can you hear me?

MR GUMBI: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gumbi, won't you just stand and give us your full names?

MR GUMBI: My name is Buli David Gumbi.

BULI DAVID GUMBI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you sir, you may sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Gumbi, you have made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka B?

MR GUMBI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR GUMBI: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your Commander?

MR GUMBI: It was Makasonke Mhlope.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have any incidents where you were involved in before the year 1993?

MR GUMBI: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about those incidents?

MR GUMBI: In 1993, I do not remember the date ...

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Gumbi, your Counsel wants you to start with the ones before 1993.

MR GUMBI: Maybe I do not understand the question.

MR SIBEKO: You only joined the Self Defence Unit in 1993, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Before joining the Self Defence Unit, were there any acts where you were defending your community which occurred before 1993, that is before you joined the Self Defence Unit in 1993? Are there incidents where you were involved before that date?

MR GUMBI: No.

MR SIBEKO: You have already stated that there are incidents after 1993. Tell us about those incidents.

MR GUMBI: In 1993, there was a fight already between the people who were staying in the townships and the IFP members. I remember very well about an incident where I was involved.

There were IFP members who were residing at my home. As I knew these people, and they were also aware that there was a conflict between the ANC members and the IFP members, they left my home and they went to stay at Nqaki Street. As we knew these people that they were problematic in the community, Makasonke issued an order, an instruction, because there were other IFP members in our Section, he issued an order that those people should be removed.

We divided ourselves into groups and we had different mandates. I was in the group that was going to Nqaki Street, where these IFP members who used to reside at my place, were staying.

MR SIBEKO: Those people who were staying at your place, I am under the impression that you are in a position to tell us about them. Do you know those people? Do you know maybe the surname?

MR GUMBI: Yes, I know them. It is Mr Matebula the one that I can still remember.

MR SIBEKO: Is Mr Matebula the one who moved and stayed at Nqaki Street?

MR GUMBI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Did he move with his family or did he stay alone?

MR GUMBI: He was not staying with his family at my home. His family was in Natal, he was staying all alone.

MR SIBEKO: What happened when you arrived at Nqaki?

MR GUMBI: We went to Nqaki Street, it was myself, Stambu, Dumisani, Rambo.

ADV GCABASHE: Stambu, Dumisani, Rambo and yourself?

MR GUMBI: Yes. When we arrived there, Mr Matebula was staying in a shack. Stambu knocked at his door. Mr Matebula did not ask who was at the door, he just opened the door.

When he opened the door, if my memory serves me well, I was unarmed. I had a container with petrol inside, the only person who was armed, was Stambu. When Mr Matebula opened the door, Stambu started firing. When Mr Matebula fell, I poured petrol over his body and in the shack. Rambo lit a match, the whole place was on fire and Mr Matebula inside.

MR SIBEKO: You will correct me if I am wrong, you were carrying a five litre container containing petrol? Who was carrying a firearm, and which type of firearm?

MR GUMBI: The person who had a firearm, was Stambu. It was an AK47 rifle.

MR SIBEKO: Was Dumisani carrying anything?

MR GUMBI: If my memory serves me well, Dumisani had a knife. All of us, the four of us, each and every person had something.

MR SIBEKO: And then Rambo?

MR GUMBI: Rambo had a knife and a match.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct then that before you went to Nqaki Street, to this house where you attacked Mr Matebula, you knew exactly what you were going to do if you found him, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Then you when Makasonke shot at him, you poured petrol over his body and you also poured your petrol in the shack and you set it alight, that is Rambo set it alight? By that time, was he still alive or was he already dead, that is Mr Matebula?

MR GUMBI: As far as I am concerned, because the firearm was loaded, I think about eight rounds were fired, I think at that time he was already dead.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just check on one thing? It is Stambu, not Makasonke who fired?

MR GUMBI: Makasonke was a Commander who instructed us and Stambu fired.

ADV GCABASHE: But Makasonke was not there at the time, or was he there? I have just missed his name if he was there.

MR GUMBI: No, Makasonke was not there at Nqaki Street.

MR SIBEKO: Now that you say he was already dead, what was the reason for you to set him alight?

MR GUMBI: The reason for us to set him alight, we had a belief that, we knew that these IFP members, most of them, they believed in muti, we did not want to find ourselves in trouble.

His family could take his body and perform something, so that we can get into trouble. That is why we decided to set him alight, because we wanted to prevent his family from doing something, from performing something on his dead body that would lead us into trouble.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know what ultimately happened to the burning shack and Mr Matebula?

MR GUMBI: The body was burnt down and the shack itself, everything was just destroyed.

MR SIBEKO: Is this the only incident that you were involved in?

MR GUMBI: Yes, this is the only incident.

MR SIBEKO: We have heard evidence to the effect that there were patrols and barricades that were made now and then, during those days, were you never involved in those activities?

MR GUMBI: Yes, I was once involved during the barricading and patrolling in our Section.

MR SIBEKO: In your patrols and barricades, are there specific incidents where you found yourself having to deal with individual members of the community who were found with illegal firearms or whatever sort of weapon? Did you have to interact with any member of the public?

MR GUMBI: Yes, I used to find myself in such situations.

MR SIBEKO: What happened to the weapons that you found from those people?

MR GUMBI: We would take the firearms and hand them to the Commander and the Commander would decide on what to do with the firearms, and distribute it to the other people who were patrolling.

MR SIBEKO: And what happened to the people from whom those weapons were found? Would you just leave them as they are, nothing happened to them?

MR GUMBI: If we got arms from the members in the community, and if we knew that this person was from our own community, that person would be disciplined with a sjambok.

If the person did not belong to the SDU or did not belong to our Section, maybe that particular person would be an enemy, that person would die.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have a specific incident and if possible, give us the name of any person, where you were involved, maybe that person was found with that weapon and disciplined as you say.

MR GUMBI: No.

MR SIBEKO: What you have just explained is what normally happened, not that you were specifically involved in such incidents where people were found?

MR GUMBI: This is something that used to happen, it is not that I was involved.

MR SIBEKO: In other words, I will be correct if I say you are applying for amnesty with respect to the incident that happened at Nqaki Street, where Mr Matebula was set alight and his property was also set alight, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions, Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson, none, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Mr Gumbi, Mr Matebula, was he a tenant at your parents' premises?

MR GUMBI: Yes, he was a tenant.

ADV SANDI: Was he getting on well with your family, without any frictions?

MR GUMBI: Everything was just normal among my family. There were no problems between my family and Mr Matebula.

ADV SANDI: I will ask you to listen very carefully to this question. Were you personally ever present at a time when someone was being beaten up with a sjambok, were you ever present during such occasions?

MR GUMBI: No.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Gumbi. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Gumbi, just to confirm Nqaki Street is in Lusaka A, isn't it?

MR GUMBI: Nqaki Street, yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Now the Commander at Lusaka A, was Musang Msimango?

MR GUMBI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Two questions, did he know that you were coming into his area to execute a particular operation, if he didn't, were you supposed to tell him? I just want to understand how this worked?

MR GUMBI: As far as I am concerned, the commanders were working together and the commanders would give one another information on something that would happen, the attacks that would take place in the future.

ADV GCABASHE: As far as you are concerned, Musang Msimango would have heard from Mhlope, Makasonke Mhlope, that you would be coming in to do a particular thing in that area?

MR GUMBI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gumbi, thank you very much, you are excused.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, is there anything else that is lined up for today or have we reached the end of the list?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, there is one light in the tunnel, and this is that the application from my side of Mr Julius Mganiso, his application appears in Lusaka B, his application is page 148, his application number 7041/97, Mr Chairman, I am requesting with respect that this application also be postponed or removed from the roll because this application also deals with the Sisulu Section, and that it also be heard on the next roll, which means there is four applications left on the roll for today.

I understand there is one or two applicants left, I am not sure what Mr Sibeko's position is regarding that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Adv Steenkamp, so that is removed for the moment, and to be re-enrolled for the later hearing?

ADV STEENKAMP: That is correct Mr Chairman, I am sure if you look at Lusaka B, there is four applications left.

The one of Mr Mkhize Zwayi which appears on page 183 in the bundle, it is the last person on the list of applications appearing in the index, this person was taken back to prison today for logistical purposes. He will be back tomorrow, which means there are three applicants left, Mr Oscar Msibi, Doctor Nkonyane and Mr Sibiya. I think they are all still present.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, what is your position?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I have about three applicants who are present here, and whom I have already consulted.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. Which is the one that was with the gentleman that we heard yesterday, I think it was?

ADV GCABASHE: Ngwengwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Ngwengwa?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I can help there, it was Doctor Nkonyane, his application appears on page 169. That was the third individual, 7267 Mr Chairman, he is on the last page of the index of Lusaka B, the last applicant.

You will see on the first page of Lusaka B, Doctor Nkonyane, that was the last person that was present of the three yesterday. That is the one Mr Chairman, who stood down actually yesterday after we postponed.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that one of the ones that you have ready?

MR SIBEKO: It is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we, without wanting to prescribe to you, but is it possible for us to take that application?

MR SIBEKO: It is very much possible.

CHAIRPERSON: We will then proceed with the application of Doctor Nkonyane, AM7267/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, can you hear me?

MR NKONYANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record?

MR NKONYANE: My name is Doctor Nkonyane.

DOCTOR NKONYANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nkonyane, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, or were you an office bearer in any organised structure?

MR NKONYANE: I was a member of a community organisation that was called Thokoza Civic Association.

I was a General Secretary. That was from 1990 up to 1991, mid 1991. Because of the problems, I had to leave the place and I had to go and reside at Polla Park. I just stayed there like any other resident, but because of harassment or being accused of something as a person who was known as a member of the Civic Association, I was elected as a Coordinator or Organiser under the Commander of the time.

MR SIBEKO: In other words you were not a member of the Self Defence Units, but you were sort of a Coordinator between - Coordinator of the Self Defence Units liaising with the commanders, is that what you are saying?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Will I then be correct to say that you never possessed or carried any arm or ammunition during this period 1990 to 1994?

MR NKONYANE: I never carried anything of that sort, of that nature.

MR SIBEKO: Will I further be correct if I say that you never participated in any attack whatsoever, that occurred or that might have occurred during that period, is that correct?

MR NKONYANE: I was never involved in those things.

MR SIBEKO: What is the reason for your application for amnesty?

MR NKONYANE: The reason for me to apply for amnesty is as a General Secretary of Thokoza Civic, as the then General Secretary of Thokoza Civic Association, because of the state of emergency that started in 1990, it started our neighbours who were in Khatlehong, where the taxi groups were fighting, we learnt a lesson there.

It happened on a Friday ...

MR SIBEKO: Sir, firstly you are proceeding too fast and then secondly, we have already heard evidence about how violence started in Khatlehong and Thokoza. What we are actually looking for here is your actual involvement in the activities of the Self Defence Unit.

The reason why you applied for amnesty, not the historical background, as to how the violence started?

MR NKONYANE: The reason for me to apply for amnesty, it is because I was the one who encouraged the people to form the Self Defence Units.

MR SIBEKO: In your application sir, on page 170, you state that you as a Coordinator, you were responsible for amongst other things, collecting money from people to buy arms. Did you buy those arms personally?

MR NKONYANE: What I was doing was whenever there was a decision of collecting the money, there were people who were appointed to do that, collect those money and they would bring that money to me, and I would be told to give people some amounts of money in order to buy arms. That is what I used to do.

MR SIBEKO: Am I understanding you correctly if I say that after the money has been collected, it would be given over to you and then you would keep that money and give it to whoever, when the resolution is taken that arms should be bought? In other words you were supplying cash in order to purchase arms and ammunition?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And you knew that that conduct was unlawful, is that correct, that is the purchasing of illegal arms and ammunition?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other thing, apart from supplying cash that you were involved in during those times, that has to do with your application?

MR NKONYANE: There is no other role that I played.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, any questions Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nkonyane, maybe I did not follow you very well, did you personally go around, collecting money from people so that arms could be purchased?

MR NKONYANE: I never collected the money, there were people who were mandated to do that and they would give that money to me, and I would count that money and I had to make a report back at some stage, if there was no more money.

ADV SANDI: And the report back, that would be done at a meeting where everyone from the community would come and discuss?

MR NKONYANE: The report back would be done at a meeting where only males were allowed to attend.

ADV SANDI: I understand you attended those meetings as one of the leaders in the community, you played a prominent role in the taking of decisions?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Were you at any stage aware of an attack that was going to be launched on members of the IFP?

MR NKONYANE: Such things wouldn't be discussed in front of us as people who were wearing suits and people who were communicating with the police. Those discussions would be held secretly.

ADV SANDI: As one of the influential, leading figures in the community, would you subsequently become aware once attacks had been carried out?

MR NKONYANE: As I have told that such things, such discussions were only for commanders who were involved in the fight, we would not get anything, we would not get any information concerning such things.

Such discussions would be held secretly.

ADV SANDI: What I am trying to find out from you Mr Nkonyane is, whether you played any role to try and frustrate the arm of the law so that the people who had carried out such attacks, could not be arrested?

MR NKONYANE: Will you please rephrase your question sir?

ADV SANDI: You did not personally have to do anything to protect the people who were carrying out these attacks?

MR NKONYANE: There was no way for me to protect the people who came to attack.

ADV SANDI: But nevertheless you supported those attacks, because they were carried out in the name of defending your community?

MR NKONYANE: I could not support anything that I did not hear or understand. I was never told that people were going out to attack. The only thing that I witnessed was the people coming to attack in our community.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Nkonyane, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Sibeko?

MR NKONYANE: None, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn the proceedings at this stage until tomorrow morning at half past nine.