--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Today we have two matters on the role, we will be commencing with the application of Mr Dlamini. Before we start, I would just like to quickly introduce the Committee.

We are all members of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni. He is an attorney from Pretoria. On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg, and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge from the High Court in Transkei.

I would just like to ask the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee, I am John Wills, attorney from Pietermaritzburg. I represent Mr Thulasizwe Raphael Dlamini.

I am representing Mr Dlamini through the auspices of the Legal Aid Board.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETE: I am Ms Thabela Thabete, the Evidence Leader in Cape Town, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I call Mr Dlamini to testify.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before we start Mr Wills, if I could just inform the people attending the hearing that the proceedings are all, all the proceedings are simultaneously interpreted and to benefit from the interpretation, you have to have one of these devices. They are available from the Sound Technician or the person in front of the hall.

The translation will be into English and Zulu, channels 2 and 3 respectively. Mr Wills?

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, you have applied for amnesty be filling out the form, the prescribed annexure, Form 1, and you filled this out on the 8th of May 1997 at Ixopo, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents of this statement?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Sometime later, a certain person who was working for the Truth Commission approached you, and asked you to make a further statement, and this person was a policeman by the name of Mbatha and he took a statement from you which you signed under oath, in August 1998, the 18th of August 1998, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents of this statement?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do confirm it.

MR WILLS: And the purpose of making this statement, was in order to supplement the details that you had given in your application, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Whereabouts were you born Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: I was born at Springvale in Ixopo.

MR WILLS: Where is that? In the Ixopo area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, Springvale.

MR WILLS: You joined the ANC some time, can you tell us when that was?

MR DLAMINI: I joined the UDF in 1982 and I joined the ANC in 1989 when I was still residing in Johannesburg.

MR WILLS: Now, the period for which you - the period in which you committed the acts in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, was after 1990.

Can you tell us what the conditions were like in your home area during this time?

MR DLAMINI: There was a lot of violence, we had a problem with the IFP, who were actually killing and attacking people in the area that I was living in.

They would shoot at us from a very long distance. At some point, they would burn people's homes, steal cattle, shoot at old people and children. Even in the town area of Ixopo, the old people could not go and get their pension money, because they were not free to move around in town.

At that point, SDU's were formed. The community decided that SDU's should be then formed.

MR WILLS: You say that the IFP were attacking people, which people were they attacking?

MR DLAMINI: ANC people.

MR WILLS: Were you still at this stage residing in the Springvale area?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was now at Plainhill, at the Noqwega area of Ixopo, that is where I moved in 1990.

MR WILLS: This area, Plainhill, is this a ward of the Ixopo area?

MR DLAMINI: It is a rural area of Ixopo.

MR LAX: Mr Wills, we have heard about Noqwega already, so we know where the area is. We have had a previous applicant who came from that area. It is fine.

MR WILLS: The Plainhill area that you lived in, what was the political party, what was the main political affiliation of the residents in that area?

MR DLAMINI: There were members of the ANC, but there were members of the IFP in the area.

MR WILLS: You said that the community decided to establish an SDU, what was your position in regard to this SDU?

MR DLAMINI: They were desperately needed, because people were no longer sleeping in their homes, they had fled to Umzimkulu, their houses were being burgled and goods stolen from their homes.

The SDU's were needed. There was no free movement in the Ixopo area, it had been demarcated into two.

MR WILLS: I am asking you Mr Dlamini, were you appointed to serve any particular role within the SDU?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee what that was?

MR DLAMINI: I was the Commander of the SDU's in my area.

I would normally consult with everyone before we actually carried out any activity.

MR WILLS: Yes, and who were the other members of your SDU, if you can recall their names, please give them to the Committee.

MR DLAMINI: Those that I can still remember were Gacha Denza, Bongeni Nkabani, myself and others. In our area there were different wards, therefore people from other areas could come to assist for a short while, but this did not happen all the time.

MR WILLS: Yes, I am going to get on to the issue of the other SDU's in the area, but I just want you to concentrate on the SDU which you commander at this stage.

Did you have any firearms in this SDU?

MR DLAMINI: No, but we had home made guns, or "uxashu".

MR WILLS: You, yourself, did you ever acquire a firearm?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us how you acquired that firearm?

MR DLAMINI: Because of the situation in the area, where we did not have firearms and Inkatha was attacking us day and night, I was compelled to actually remove a pistol, a 9 mm pistol from one coloured person, so that we could have one firearm in the area.

MR WILLS: What do you mean remove?

MR DLAMINI: When cars entered the area, or came through in the area, we would check exactly who they were, whether they had come to attack or maybe they had come to seek information on what was happening.

We will search the cars and when the man came out of the car, I saw his gun on the holster, and I just removed it because I needed it and we also needed the firearm in the area.

MR WILLS: You mentioned earlier that there were other areas and from your statement it is clear that there were other SDU's in the area. You have mentioned that there was Pat Mbakazi. What was his position?

MR DLAMINI: I knew Pat Mbakazi as a person who was very loyal to the ANC. Although we had not discussed his affiliation at length, I understood him to be a member of the ANC, because he would normally assist ANC members who were in need.

Therefore I knew him to be a member of an SDU.

MR WILLS: Which SDU was he a member of? Where did that SDU come from?

MR DLAMINI: From Donnybrook.

MR WILLS: And you also mention a person by the name of Mnini Dlamini and where did he come from?

MR DLAMINI: From Top, an area very close to where I lived.

MR WILLS: And did he have any relationship with any SDU, and if so, which SDU?

MR DLAMINI: He was very close to mine and also another one from Plain and also the one at Top.

MR WILLS: Sorry, there is something I forgot to mention earlier, to ask you earlier.

What job are you presently doing now?

MR DLAMINI: I am a member of the VIP Protection Unit.

MR WILLS: That is part of the South African Police Services, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: No. I work for a company called Caliba, Executive Protection Services.

MR WILLS: And have you ever had, have you ever been a member of Umkhonto We Sizwe or had any training, military training?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR WILLS: And were there ever any MK persons who assisted your SDU operations or provided weapons for you?

MR DLAMINI: As far as I am aware, I do not know any of them. There may have been. I once heard that there were some who had arrived in the area. At that time I was not residing at that area.

MR WILLS: You have applied for amnesty in respect of three incidents, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: The first incident is one which you refer to on page 3, that is page 42 of the bundle members of the Committee, Mazabkweni, where you say we chased IFP attackers and warding off their attack, and then you say three people were killed, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell, you detail this incident a little bit more fully in your statement in support of your application, and can you tell the Committee about that first incident at Mazabkweni. Tell us exactly what happened and what your involvement was.

MR DLAMINI: As I mentioned earlier on, the IFP would arrive day and night, steal stock and burn people's homes down. We had devised a programme that during the daylight, we would just walk around in the areas, just checking what is going on, and if everything is okay.

After the Macubeni incident where sheep were stolen, in fact his cattle, everything was stolen, I and a person called Tim, went to that area just to check what was going on. We did not have any firearms on us.

As we were walking around and we were on top of a hill, we saw two persons and when we looked at them closely, we could not identify them.

I asked them who they were because they were a distance away. Where we were standing, there was a gumtree forest. These people did not respond, they started shooting and when they did this, we actually ran and hid behind the trees and they fled.

We chased after them for a few paces, and we returned because we did not have any firearms on us. We were just trying to frighten them.

When we returned, we were walking along the road, and we met Pat Mbakazi. He was in a blue or navy Golf and he stopped and he said he was looking for us, because he had heard that we were in that area.

I then told him that we had just been shot at by two persons who had fled, and I pointed the direction in which they fled. And then he got into the car, and took a road into the left. We went into the forest.

We heard the car speeding off and we went back and went home. When we arrived, we just sat around at home and we did not see them. After a while he told us that he had caught them.

He did not mention that he had shot at them, but our intention was that because they had shot at us, if we catch them, we would shoot at them too.

After a few days, in fact the following day, I heard on the radio that three people had been killed in that area. I then assumed that it must be the same people, who had actually shot at us because when he told us the story, he actually admitted that he had caught up with them. That is why I have applied for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, Mr Dlamini, did I hear wrong, did you not say that when you and Tim saw them when you were on top of the hill, you saw two people?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct, there were two.

CHAIRPERSON: But then you say that you heard that three people had died?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So, one of the three couldn't have been a person that you saw when you were on top of the hill?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR LAX: If you will allow me, Mr Wills, why have you applied for amnesty in respect of these people? What did you do to them?

MR DLAMINI: It is because when the incident started, I was present and I knew that those people were attackers.

MR LAX: But, you haven't done anything wrong in respect of those people? You didn't assault them, you didn't injure them personally?

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't give an instruction that they be killed?

MR DLAMINI: I said because the fact that those people were killed, had something to do with me, because they had shot at us and I told some people that they had indeed shot at us, and they chased them and killed them.

I don't know with regards to the third person, whether they caught up with him along the way or whether he was with the two, but that is what he told me.

MR LAX: You see, you never saw the three deceased, did you?

CHAIRPERSON: The bodies?

MR DLAMINI: No, I didn't see them.

MR LAX: So in essence, you don't even know if they are the same people that you saw, they may be three completely different people?

MR DLAMINI: It is possible, but from what he had told me, I had a belief that it must be those people whom I had encountered earlier.

MR LAX: Please carry on Mr Wills.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one question, Pat never said he killed them. He only said that he found them, did I understand you correctly?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, but I heard on the radio that people had been killed, and he, Pat, had actually been chasing such people.

MR WILLS: Thank you. You say that you met up with Pat and you indicated to him that these people had shot at you and he went chasing off in his car. Did you hear anything after that in the sense of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Gunfire or anything like that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I heard gunshots, but I was not sure whether it was Pat or them, because there was normally gunfire and there was normally gunshots that were going off in the area, any way.

MR WILLS: But when you heard this gunfire, was it shortly after Pat had gone to chase these people, or - let us know what the position was.

MR DLAMINI: It may have been about ten minutes after he had left.

MR WILLS: I am going to turn now to the second incident that you refer to.

MR LAX: Sorry, before you do Mr Wills. Just if you can assist us Mr Dlamini, do you have from the papers it seems that you are not sure when this happened, and we don't have even a month that it is likely to have happened in.

Can you try and assist us by narrowing the time frame, the time period?

MR DLAMINI: It is difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you start off by giving a year?

MR DLAMINI: It must have been in the middle of the year.

CHAIRPERSON: Which year?

MR DLAMINI: It might have been early 1993, but I am not certain about it.

MR LAX: Well, was it winter, was it summer. If it was winter in Ixopo, you would certainly remember that?

MR DLAMINI: It was actually raining as it is today. It could have been in summer.

MR WILLS: Regarding the second incident, you say in paragraph 9(a)(iv) of your affidavit on page 42 of the bundle, that you refer to Bantam, in a battle between IFP and ANC ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, is that Bantam or Batong?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wills, just one last thing. This person Tim, that you talk about, who was he, Tim, where was he from?

MR DLAMINI: He was one of the people who came from Top and he was also involved in the protection of the community.

But I did not know whether he was a member of the SDU or not.

MR LAX: And you don't know his surname or his family that he came from?

MR DLAMINI: I forget his surname, but I will remember it. It is Weldon.

MR LAX: Weldon?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LAX: One last thing before we move on Mr Wills, the coloured man whose firearm you took, did you know him? Was he from your area?

MR DLAMINI: I did not know him, and he did not come from our area.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Right, you say in relation to the Batong incident, that in a battle between the IFP and the ANC near Nkalu river, there were three casualties from the IFP and some injured from the ANC.

From the latter part of your statement, you know that three people were killed in this battle, is that right? Three IFP people were killed in the battle, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us in detail what occurred in this incident?

MR DLAMINI: During this war between the ANC and the IFP, Pat Mbakazi together with someone called Xude, I am not sure whether this was his real name or a nickname, they came to me. We usually worked together, assisting each other in the protection of communities around Ixopo when such people were attacked by the IFP.

Pat arrived at Plainhill and he enquired how things were going. This took place before - the incident at Batong took place before the one at Mazabkweni. Pat enquired just where these people stayed or where they stood or where they attacked from.

I showed them where they stayed and I also told him that sometimes they would come and get into the forest or come up from the river's side to attack us.

He then requested that these people should be attacked, so that they should stop attacking us and he suggested that he will come with his colleagues and we should also assist him when he goes to that area.

I then consulted with Mnini, whom I saw first. I told him that Pat was requesting that a group of people should accompany him to attack that area.

Mnini was opposed to that idea. I then did not consult anybody else, because we were actually not together all the time. We did not meet all the time, so I did not see the others.

MR WILLS: This person you consulted with Mnini, was this Mnini Dlamini from Top?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Okay, carry on.

MR DLAMINI: Pat left and said he would return with his group, and I told him that Mnini and them would not involve themselves to assist in that fight.

They just wanted the fight to be only in our area, that is defending ourselves if we were attacked. The following day Pat returned, he was in his Golf, I was not around at that time. I had left with Gacha Denza. We were just walking around the area.

It was in the late afternoon, I saw the Golf and although I did not tell Gacha where these people were going, I knew where they were proceeding to.

MR WILLS: Where were they, what direction were they travelling?

MR DLAMINI: They were on a route towards the Roman Catholic mission, which is actually across the Batong area. There are roads and forests, SAPPI forests around that area.

MR WILLS: Where did you think they were going to?

MR DLAMINI: I assumed that they were actually going to that area, because Pat normally did not travel towards that area.

MR WILLS: Which area did you think they were going to and what did you think they were going to do?

MR DLAMINI: I thought they were going to Batong, just as he had told me what he planned on doing, that is attacking these people.

MR WILLS: Was he travelling in the same direction as the places that you had pointed out?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Carry on.

MR DLAMINI: Later on we went to enquire what was happening, because we heard gunshots and we saw the Golf approaching. We did not head in that direction, and they passed by.

I am not sure whether I saw him at Ixopo or near my home, but he then said that there were three people who had been killed and he also said that they had been fighting with these people.

I did see somebody who was actually bleeding from the arm.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, in this matter, Mr Dlamini, you have told us that it was Pat who asked where the people who used to attack your area, came from and you had pointed out that area. Pat then asked you and your people from your area for assistance, that was declined.

You didn't go on the attack at all, why do you apply for amnesty in respect of that incident?

MR DLAMINI: I had pointed the area to Pat, that is showing him where the attackers came from, and that is how they came about to be attacked.

MR LAX: So you are saying you were instrumental in the attack taking place and therefore you are applying for amnesty?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you help us again, just with the time frame when this happened? You said this happened before the last incident you described.

We have established that that first incident was early 1993. So this was before early 1993, either during early 1993 but before the last incident? Was it summer, was it winter, was it 1993?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us any idea as to how many days or weeks before the previous incident you described, it took place?

MR DLAMINI: I think that maybe it was about three weeks or a month after the first incident. I am not very sure of the year.

MR LAX: Sorry, it was interpreted as after, three weeks or a month after, but you told us this was before the previous incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I think it was a mistake, an interpretation mistake, it happened before.

MR LAX: Thank you for that.

MR WILLS: You say that you actually went to investigate this issue and you actually saw some dead bodies? Three dead bodies, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, I saw these three dead bodies.

MR LAX: Hang on a second, his earlier evidence was that Pat told him that there were three people that were killed, and he only saw one guy that had been injured? He didn't say that he himself went there.

I know he says it in his statement.

MR WILLS: Let me clear that up. How did you find out about this incident? How did you find out that people had been killed?

You might have found, can you just explain the circumstances surrounding that?

MR DLAMINI: Pat told me about that.

MR WILLS: Yes, and then did anything else happen? Did you go and investigate the matter or not?

MR DLAMINI: I went after he had told me and I actually saw the dead bodies.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, so you actually went and saw the dead bodies at Batong?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it was actually along the river that demarcated Batong area and Plain area.

MR LAX: And you say you don't know who those people were?

MR DLAMINI: No. I was seeing them for the first time.

MR WILLS: The last incident you applied for amnesty for, is the incident where you say you were involved where you shot a person, is that right, in Ixopo?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: You say one person was killed in this incident, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you know the name of this person?

MR DLAMINI: I only discovered this year what his surname was, it was Sithole. But I do not know what his name was.

MR WILLS: Can you explain to us exactly what happened in this incident?

MR DLAMINI: On that day there had been a lot of violence, there were Security Force soldiers and they were travelling in about 15 vehicles in Ixopo.

The IFP was actually busy stabbing people. There is one boy from Hlungelwa family who was caught by the soldiers, and he was stabbed.

The soldiers were actually not protecting ANC members. They might as well not have been present. Such a person called Dindelwa Poswa was caught and they removed his jacket. The soldiers were actually not performing their duties.

The Ixopo area had been demarcated into two, there was an IFP rank and shops and also ANC rank and shops in the (indistinct) area. On that day, we were actually walking around. I wanted to go to my sister's house, it was around two o'clock in the afternoon.

My sister resided in a shack settlement in Ixopo. On my way when I was just about to cross the main road outside the Ixopo area, I met two or three girls and they were walking very briskly and I enquired what was going on.

They said they are not sure what is going on, but somebody must be dead at a certain spot where a van was parked. On that day I had an AK47, which I had exchanged with that pistol which I had removed from the coloured man.

I had on a long coat and before I approached the spot, I was about 100 meters away from the spot, I removed the AK47 from the safe and put it on the ground and I covered it with a cardboard box. It was just alongside the road.

I put the AK about the distance that is from my table to the Committee's table, that is the distance between the AK and the road.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying the table where Mr Wills is sitting, that distance?

MR DLAMINI: Where the Committee is sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: Where we are sitting? That is about six paces?

MR WILLS: Yes, I accept that.

MR SIBANYONI: The question was, is the distance you are estimating from you are sitting to where your attorney is sitting?

MR DLAMINI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: The distance that the gun was from the road?

MR DLAMINI: Let me explain it, I left the main road and the distance where I was from the main road, would be from here to the shops outside.

I actually approached, or I was approaching the spot where the van was parked. On that road where I was travelling, I removed the AK and I just put it next to that foot path and I actually covered it with a cardboard box and I continued on my way.

I actually met, when I arrived there, there were four policemen and I asked them what was going on because the van's siren was on. I thought that maybe one of the ANC members had been injured or killed, and I would have to contact that victim's family to inform them or assist them.

The policemen said nothing had happened. I then proceeded to leave. There was a group of IFP people, there may have been more than 30 and they were calling out at me. They were actually whistling at me. I actually told the police that these people were calling me and they said I should actually get into the van and they would actually take me to the ANC rank.

I told them that I was actually going to my sister's house, and they said the were leaving. I then went on my way. As I was walking, a distance from about there to the road, I just saw people running after me, a group of people running after me. I then thought that these people are armed because I would sometimes see them armed with assegai's and the likes.

I then thought that I would run away and hide, because there was a long grass, along there. I ran very fast and when I actually passed on that spot where I had hidden my AK, I picked it up and they were very close to me. I then turned and asked them what was going on. They just stopped.

I asked again what is going on and there was this one person near the foot path, and I asked him again and he was proceeding towards me with an assegai.

I asked for three times, for about three times what was going on and when I asked for the third time, I cocked the AK47 and he proceeded towards me. I realised that he was actually wanting to stab me and I shot him.

I realised that he was dead because he just fell. I had actually shot him on the head. The rest then fled and I didn't fire the gun again. I also ran away.

MR WILLS: In respect of all the incidents that you have mentioned, you have never been prosecuted or arrested and questioned apart from your processes with the Truth Commission?

MR DLAMINI: No, I have never been prosecuted.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask Mr Dlamini?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman. If Mr Chair would bear with me, Mr Dlamini, you say you were appointed, were you appointed or elected as a leader of the SDU's?

MR DLAMINI: I was elected by the people from the area.

MS THABETE: Did you undertake any training of any sort in handling or the use of firearms?

MR DLAMINI: No. When I grew up I used to actually have a...

MS THABETE: So you learned to use a firearm through your experience, you were never trained?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he was saying when he grew up?

MR LAX: Sorry, we didn't hear the rest of the translation, it didn't finish. If you wouldn't mind repeating it please.

He said when he grew up, and then it just went dead after that.

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, he said he had been using a firearm to shoot birds.

MS THABETE: What evidence did you have or how did you know that the people who were stealing cattle, were IFP members and not criminals?

MR DLAMINI: This they would do in broad daylight, when we would see them. Because we did not have firearms, we were actually afraid or scared to follow or apprehend them.

MS THABETE: Regarding the first incident at Mazabkweni, you say you never saw the bodies, but you heard from the radio that there were three people who were killed, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MS THABETE: After you had heard from the radio that there were three people killed, didn't you ask Pat whether he killed them?

MR DLAMINI: I asked him.

MS THABETE: What did he say?

MR DLAMINI: He actually told me after a while, because where he came from, Donnybrook is far from where I stay, he told me that he had actually caught up with them.

And from the way he said it, I realised that they had actually killed them, because he just laughed. They would have not have chased them for nothing because even if I had caught up with them, I would have killed them too.

MS THABETE: I am a bit confused, I thought you said in your evidence earlier on, he did not say whether he killed them or not, and you did not ask at that time. So you are saying you asked later on, after you had heard from the radio and he laughed, so you assumed that he had killed them, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: When he returned from that area, he did not tell me that he had killed them. I actually heard on the radio the following day and I also saw him later on and I asked him how their mission had gone.

MS THABETE: Regarding the third incident, you say that you later found, you didn't know who the victim was, but you later found out that he was from the Sithole family? My question to you is when did you find out and how did you find out that he was from the Sithole family?

MR DLAMINI: Although I do not remember exactly, I once worked at the Ixopo rank, as a Rank Manager. We would sometimes discuss about the past, just what the violence was like in the area.

I don't remember who said it, but somebody mentioned that a person was from the Sithole family and he also said that he also played for a team owned by Bongeni Mzizi.

MS THABETE: What I was trying to find out is that you wrote a statement, assisted by one Mr Mbatha from the TRC, which was on the 18th of August 1998, which is this year, so what I was trying to find out is why didn't you include it in your statement or didn't you know at that time that the person was from the Sithole family?

MR DLAMINI: I had not found out by that time.

MS THABETE: You spoke about an AK rifle, where did you obtain that rifle from?

MR DLAMINI: There is some person from Johannesburg, who would sometimes arrive to deliver guns to those people who had actually bought them. When he arrived, I had this pistol from the coloured man.

We then discussed that with regards to the situation in the area, I should actually exchange with him, that he gives me the AK and I give him the pistol. I owed him, there was a balance of R200-00 which I had to pay for the AK, but unfortunately I did not have money at that time, so I didn't pay it.

MS THABETE: The last question, you say you sold your firearm. Why did you sell it, if I may ask?

MR DLAMINI: I had no further need for it because the violence had subsided.

MS THABETE: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?

MS THABETE: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills, any re-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, did you tell Pat that you are applying for amnesty for the incident at Mazabkweni and Batong?

MR DLAMINI: No. I did not tell him because I would have not been able to tell him, because he died.

The person who I could have told, was Xude. Pat is already deceased, so I could not have told him.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you tell Xude?

MR DLAMINI: I haven't been able to see him. I don't know whether he is still residing in the area that he was before because I knew Xude through Pat.

MR SIBANYONI: You said as you were leaving the taxi rank at Ixopo, people started chasing you. Did they know that you are a member of the ANC?

MR DLAMINI: They knew me very well.

MR SIBANYONI: Why were they chasing you?

MR DLAMINI: It was obvious that they wanted to kill me. That was normally what they did to attack people, injure them, kill them. I also knew that what was going to happen to me as they are chasing me.

People who were armed, would not just chase me for nothing. Although I did not see guns, I knew that they would have them.

MR SIBANYONI: When you were shooting at these person at Ixopo, were you defending yourself or were you furthering any political aim?

MR DLAMINI: I was defending myself. If I had wanted to just kill the IFP, I would have actually shot at all of them, because I actually had 36 bullets in the magazine.

I specifically shot at him, because he was going to stab me.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you report to your SDU about that incident, did you tell them what happened?

MR DLAMINI: We discussed it.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Just one question Chairperson. When did you become Commander of the SDU in your particular part of (indistinct)?

MR DLAMINI: It was in 1983.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean 1993 or 1983?

MR DLAMINI: Sorry, sorry, excuse me, it was 1993, I made a mistake.

MR LAX: How many people were part of your Unit?

MR DLAMINI: There were other people who would just assist.

MR LAX: I am not interested in people from other areas. I am aware that there were people from other areas, I am saying in your Unit.

MR DLAMINI: I am trying to explain, there was Gacha, Bongeni, myself and Lindelwa, those are the people that I remember quite well. The four of us.

There would be others who would just assist.

MR LAX: With regard to the second incident you described, that was actually the first one in chronological sequence, the Batong incident, you basically wanted to launch an attack on Batong in, if I could put it bluntly, in retaliation for their attacks on you? Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is not what I wanted. We wanted to actually attack them when they came into the area in broad daylight, but when the people were attacking them, or when they went to attack them, I also supported them because they were responsible for attacks on us.

Even though I did not participate in the attack, because I had no firearm, I just supported them.

MR LAX: But you wanted to get people to go and attack that area. That was your evidence in the beginning. You said you discussed with Mnini Dlamini from Top which was another SDU in your area, you wanted them to come and assist you with this attack. That is how you described it, you didn't describe it as waiting for them to come across the river to attack you and then defend you.

You described it as an attack on that area. The fact that you then spoke to Mbakazi and you pointed out the area that should, where the boundaries were so that he would know the correct place to go and attack, and you knew he was going to drive there with his vehicle and attack, how can you say you were waiting for them to come and attack you and then you would defend yourselves?

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, my recollection of the evidence was slightly different to that that the Committee member, Mr Lax has put to the witness. My understanding of the evidence was that it was Pat who wanted to initiate the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think it was Pat who, my recollection is that it was Pat who suggested that and who asked where these people who are attacking, come from and it was pointed out and then it was the other Dlamini, Mnini, was approached and he said he is not in favour of it because he would rather fight on their territory and defend, rather than attack, and that is why Dlamini didn't want to go and that is why he couldn't gather people from his area to support the attack because they preferred to defend. That is what my understanding was.

MR WILLS: Yes, that was my understanding and also, a slight difference from what was put by Mr Lax, but it might have an importance when it is put to the witness, my understanding was that the witness communicated Pat's request to Mnini, as opposed to planning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he communicated it, then Mnini said no, he preferred to fight in his own territory, but the witness said that he wasn't opposed to Pat's request, in fact he supported it, he wasn't against the attack.

MR LAX: It doesn't substantially change the fact that you were in favour of the attack. Why were you in favour of the attack? Why didn't you wait for them to attack you?

MR DLAMINI: Because there were people who were willing and ready to help us out, we would have not prevented them if they were willing and able to do so.

MR LAX: But you see, you didn't know who the actual attackers were, you were just sending them into the area to go and attack that area.

They could have been attacking innocent people for all you knew?

MR DLAMINI: With regards to the actual perpetrators, are you referring to that?

MR LAX: I am saying to you if you had waited for the people from Batong to come to your area and attack you, then the people that you would have, with Mpangaze's attack have assaulted or killed, or defended yourselves against, would be the people who were not innocent victims, they were people in the process of attacking you.

If however, you sent Mpangaze across the river, to that area, he wouldn't know who to attack, he would just attack anybody he saw there. All you did was define the boundary, you didn't say to him go and kill Joe Dlamini, go and kill Blose, go and kill Mthetwa, you didn't say that?

MR DLAMINI: I did not say that he should go. He enquired from me just where the attackers came from and where did they attack from. I gave him that information that this is where they would attack from, and where they came from.

I did not specifically tell him this and that house is responsible or what I did was tell him where they came from, and where they launched their attacks from.

MR LAX: The point stays the same. It was against your policy to attack areas, you have told us that, you knew that. Why did you tell him, no don't do this, I am not in favour of that, it is against our policy?

MR DLAMINI: I would not have been able to do that, because he was also aware that we were being attacked day and night, and I would not have actually prevented him from doing what he wanted to do.

I actually just gave him the information that he requested. I could never tell him not to go there, because maybe people might have turned around and said, and been accused of letting my people be attacked, if I do not want people to go and attack those perpetrators.

It could have happened that I may have been accused of siding with those people, so I could not actually have said that they could not go, or I could not have directed them to a specific house. I could not have done that.

MR LAX: So you were more worried about accusations than carrying out your duties as a Commander, which is to follow policy?

MR DLAMINI: Are you referring to the people in my area?

MR LAX: Well, you knew what your policy was as a Commander, not to attack people willy nilly, yet you were more worried about being accused than following the correct policy and in the process, probably innocent people died?

MR DLAMINI: I do not understand quite well, I was aware of the policy that we should not go out and attack, but I could have not stopped anybody else because I did not know what his plan was, whether he would have gone across the river or what they were going to do specifically. Their programme did not involve me.

MR LAX: But they were assisting you, they were there to assist you, they were there to prevent your community being attacked in the future, that is what you told us?

MR DLAMINI: Yes. If somebody approaches you with a problem, if maybe he says he has a problem with the men or the women of the house, and you offer your help, you would not necessarily ask how they were going to help you because it means that person has a plan of how they are going to help you, to assist you.

MR LAX: Yes, except that this was not an ordinary situation. This is a situation of semi-war and you are the Commander of your area. There is a duty on you to make sure that your targets are the proper targets. There is a duty on you, if you want us to give you amnesty for this thing, to explain to us what steps you took to make sure that the people that were killed, were the right people, were the people who were attacking you.

Not just anybody from that area, do you understand the point the point I am trying to make?

MR DLAMINI: It did not occur to me that they were just going to kill anybody. As far as I knew, they also had policies of their own. I thought that maybe they would meet the other group in a camp or maybe they had a plan of how they were going to go about doing this. I could not have enquired just who or what they were going to do when they arrived there.

MR LAX: Just one last thing, you said you grew up using a firearm to shoot birds. What sort of firearm was this?

MR DLAMINI: It was a long gun that you would actually put the bullets in front, and cock it. It was used to actually shoot birds.

CHAIRPERSON: One barrel?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LAX: What sort of bullets did you put in it?

MR DLAMINI: Very light bullets which actually had a hole at the back and the front was actually round in shape.

MR LAX: So it was an air gun? It didn't have gunpowder in it?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LAX: From what you described, you described a pellet, it would have been a pellet gun that was fired with air? Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: I do not know what a pellet gun is.

MR LAX: The little bullets that you referred to was small, maybe about 2 mm's by 2 mm's, they were round. The one front is rounded, the back is hollow slightly?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they were rounded at the front and they were shaped the way you indicated, at the back.

MR LAX: That is right, and they are about 2 mm's square more or less?

MR DLAMINI: They were very small.

MR LAX: Correct, yes. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, when did the political conflict come to an end in the Ixopo area?

MR DLAMINI: It was before, just before the elections in 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know approximately when you shot and killed that person who you later learnt to be Sithole, can you give an approximate date of that incident?

MR DLAMINI: I am not sure, but I think that the police would know. The police who actually went to pick up the body. I think the police are the ones who would have full information.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before the April 1994 elections?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think it might have been in 1994?

MR DLAMINI: No, I don't think so.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was after the other two incidents that you have described?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Lax wants to ask a further question.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, just one aspect I forgot. According to our Investigation Department report, they found a docket which they have referred to, which has a January 1994 reference and the person that was killed in that incident, and who is listed in the report as the victim, is one Peter Gugu Mbele.

MR DLAMINI: Are you referring to the Ixopo incident?

MR LAX: Correct.

MR DLAMINI: I do not know that person. I just got information this year when we were just discussing about the past, I am not sure whether that is indeed true or not. That is what I heard, that he was from the Sithole family and he had played for Bongeni Mzizi's team. He was actually a soccer player.

MR LAX: Presumably a number of people were killed at that rank in the vicinity of that rank, it would be a place where people could easily be attacked by either side?

CHAIRPERSON: Not on that particular day, but during the course of the conflict?

MR DLAMINI: I would not be too sure, because people would be attacked and it is something that I would hear from other people. I cannot be too sure.

This incident was actually committed by me, but I am just not sure of his name. I have actually not been able to actually speak to anybody from that area, who could actually ascertain for me who he was. I cannot do this because I do not want to open the old wounds of the past.

MR LAX: You see, unfortunately it is very important that we identify the right person because if for example we were to grant you amnesty and even if we weren't to grant you amnesty, the family of that person might be entitled to reparation and we would hate the wrong family to get reparation.

I just want to find out a bit further from you with regard to the information that you got when you were discussing at that rank, as Rank Manager, why you feel quite sure that is a Sithole person.

MR DLAMINI: I will then enquire from the IFP leader, from that area, because these people were actually his comrades, so I will check with him.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Committee?

MR WILLS: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Maybe one Mr Chairman. Mr Dlamini, would you be able to identify the other people that were with the person that you killed at Ixopo at the taxi rank?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Have you seen them?

MR DLAMINI: I know one of them.

MS THABETE: One person is enough, because maybe we can find out from him.

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MS THABETE: What is the name of that person?

MR DLAMINI: Thulani Dlamini.

MS THABETE: Do you know where he stays?

MR DLAMINI: He is always at the rank.

MS THABETE: I would suggest then Mr Chairperson, that we find out from him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps Mr Thulani Dlamini might well be in a position to positively identify the deceased as either Mr Mbele, Mr Sithole or whoever it might have been. Thank you.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I would also be pleased if it could be ascertained just who exactly he was, because I am not sure whether they are telling me the truth or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I mean it might not be the fact that they are lying to you, but it might just not be the same incident in which Mr Sithole got killed.

Mr Dlamini, that concludes your evidence. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I see it is eleven o'clock now Mr Chairman, I wonder if we could take the tea break at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be calling any further evidence in this matter?

MR WILLS: I won't be Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be calling any evidence Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be in a position to make submissions after the tea break Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I think I will, yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will now take the tea adjournment, after which we will receive submissions and then after that, will we be in a position to proceed with Mr Zulu's application? Is Mr Zulu's legal representative here?

MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chairman, he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, then after that, we will proceed with the application of Mr Zulu, thank you.

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, are you in a position to make submissions now?

MR WILLS IN ARGUMENT: Yes, indeed I am Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the Evidence Leader not, oh, she's coming now. Yes Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I think there is a third element to this application, which is an unusual one, apart from the normal two as to whether the applicant has fully disclosed and whether his acts were associated with a political motive, and that is whether or not he actually committed any crimes.

Obviously a person cannot get amnesty for crimes not committed.

CHAIRPERSON: That is just in respect of the first two incidents. The third one, the shooting is quite clear.

MR WILLS: Well, I am pleased about that, I thought that possibly the self defence motive might have ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, on that one, we have had occasion in the past to think very closely on this point, and although self defence might be a successful defence in a trial court, one can really only make a proper determination once you have received full evidence, from both sides, tested evidence, etc, but even if a person was shot in self defence in the context of obviously a political situation, I don't know if it is fatal to an amnesty application.

I am personally of the view that it is not. If you had for instance a political riot and somebody was being attacked and he shot in self defence, it is clearly done in a political context, arising out of the course of the conflicts, political conflict of the past.

MR LAX: Just to add this Mr Wills, the fact that you may be acquitted of a criminal charge, doesn't mean that you would not necessarily get judgement against you in a delictual matter, so because the tests are different and the (indistinct) burden is different and so on. Bear that in mind in relation to the first two as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you needn't concentrate so much on the self defence aspect, we don't have too much of a problem there.

But with regard to the other incidents, whether the actions of the applicant justify the granting of amnesty.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. The first question that I think I need to answer, or in regard to the first two incidents is whether the applicant's participation in those incidents, both of those instances amounted to any criminal conduct.

My submission is that it does. At the very least, he would be seen as a socius criminis or an accomplice, possibly even depending on an investigation of common purpose, he might even constitute being a murderer.

What is clear from the applicant's evidence, is that in both instances, he pointed out the deceased persons and he had full knowledge beforehand, as to what the intentions of the, of Pat, the person who delivered the blow, was going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could just take the two incidents separately. The second one, the first one that he testified to, that is namely the one where he met Pat in the Golf and he told him about the two people and Pat then went off.

Okay, we know that he put Pat on the tail of those two people, but do we know whether Pat killed anyone, that is the first point? If he did, whether it was those two people that he told Pat about?

MR DLAMINI: We don't with certainty, I must concede, know exactly what happened, what Pat did, because there was no direct evidence in that regard. I submit that the fact that the, that the evidence was to the effect that Pat chased after them quickly, within a relatively short period of time, gunfire was heard, and thereafter Pat spoke to the applicant, and indicated that he caught up with the persons and did so in such a manner, that the applicant realised that the persons had been killed by Pat.

I would submit that is enough to indicate that the probabilities at least are that the persons were killed in association with that act, ie the pointing out and setting Pat and his comrades off in that direction.

CHAIRPERSON: If he were to be granted amnesty in respect of that incident, what would it be fore? It wouldn't be for murder, would it because all he did was to say, look there are a couple of chaps who were shooting, they have gone that way.

He didn't say catch them and kill them, although he might have appreciated that if they were caught, Pat would kill them.

If he were charged in a criminal trial court, and convicted, what would he be convicted of? I am sure if you were defending him, you would argue against him being convicted of murder?

MR WILLS: Yes clearly, if I was in another forum, I would take a different approach, this is quite an unusual position to be in for me to try and convince a panel that my client could be guilty of a murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he an accessory before the fact?

MR WILLS: My view would be that it could be an accessory before the fact, socius criminis or even a murderer, if the doctrine of common purpose was stretched.

It would take a full investigation on the evidence, to establish the extent of his participative acts in so far as he pointed those persons out, and obviously in a criminal trail, there would be other persons who would testify against him, and we might have further details.

My submission is had he pointed out those individuals to a person whom he knew was an SDU member, whom he knew had the intent of taking out the enemy, and he set those persons off, he set that person off on the fast track of persons, whom he knew to be part of the enemy, it would seem to me that at the very least, he would be guilty of dolus eventualis in respect to murder because he should have foreseen the possibility that those persons would be killed, and he was reckless as to whether or not that possibility ensued.

MR LAX: Well not that he should have, he did foresee it. That is what you have to argue. Should have would be you know, culpable homicide or whatever.

MR WILLS: Yes, clearly that he did foresee. So that would be my submission, but to my mind, with respect, whether or not he is granted amnesty for being an accessory before the fact, or just been an accomplice or a murderer, really doesn't with respect, make a difference in so far as the decision of the Committee is concerned.

What the purpose of the Act is, is to grant amnesty to persons who come before the Committee and make a full disclosure of events that were linked with a political motive.

My submission is it would be with respect proper for the Amnesty Committee to give him amnesty, had he satisfied the criteria in the Act, ie the political motive and the full disclosure in respect of the worst case scenario.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that maybe a solution would be if he is granted amnesty in respect of that, would be that he is granted amnesty for the role that he played in the killing of three unknown persons at or near such and such an area during or about approximately, in the early part of 1993?

MR WILLS: Unfortunately that is probably the most precise way one could define the applicant's role. I would agree entirely with that, yes.

MR LAX: How do we get around the question that the Act talks about you get amnesty for an offence, for a delict and you are required in essence, to specify what that is? Are you saying that is covered by the wording that we have just used, which is his role in the killing of those people?

MR WILLS: Yes, indeed, I am. Unfortunately because of the lack of details in this matter, and I am sure, I know that the Chairperson and I are involved in another matter where there are very few details about the victim, unfortunately we are not in a position to provide such details. Unfortunately that is the only way out in this instance.

CHAIRPERSON: The second incident, the Batong incident, in that one, it came out particularly when the applicant was being questioned by Mr Lax, he said Pat came and asked them from whence these attacks were being launched by the Inkatha people, where did they come from, where did they stay, point out the place, and he pointed out the place across the river, over there, they come across the river.

That is their houses up on the hill there. Pat then says okay, I want you to get people to assist us, we are going to go and attack them. He then attempts to get people, they say no, our policy is we fight on our own ground, we fight in self defence, we are not pro-active.

Then when being questioned by Mr Lax, he said look, why did you not say to Pat it is not our policy, we fight on our own ground. He said no, he couldn't tell Pat that, because Pat came from another SDU, from another area and they've got their own policies. He didn't know that they were going there and indiscriminately kill people. He didn't know what they would do. All I did was to respond to his question, and I pointed it out.

Now, taking that into account, is he guilty of any offence at all other than not going to the police to say, look one of his comrades is going to launch an attack, which is taking it a bit over the top?

MR WILLS: No, again Mr Chairperson, initially when I was preparing for the matter, I thought there was a distinction between the two in that the first and the second incidents, in a similar way, but it is my submission that the two incidents can be viewed in a very similar light.

If one looks at the context within which that information was given, Pat comes to the applicant, he says, he comes in the context of wanting to neutralise a struggle or an attack coming from across the river. Pat doesn't ask the question innocently and the accused, the applicant doesn't interpret the question neutrally.

He knows exactly what Pat is going to do, so he points those persons out in the full knowledge, or he points that area out in the full knowledge that he knows Pat is going to be involved in the attack. He then goes further and tries to enlist the support of the other SDU Commander, this Mnini individual, and then Mnini does give him that information.

Clearly he knew exactly what was going to happen and then later on, within a relatively short period of time, that exact area is attacked. He sees Pat's car going in that direction, and he knows that that is the direction which he pointed to Pat and he knew before there was any shooting, that Pat was in fact going to attack, and it transpired that Pat did in fact attack.

I would submit that exactly the same argument ensues. The one thing which concerned me initially about the question of Mr Lax to the applicant was the issue of whether or not he didn't obeyed an order, but I don't know if you want me to address you, or he went outside the bounds of what was SDU policy. My view is, which I would be prepared to argue on, is that that isn't a necessary exclusion in regard to him being granted amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he ultimately answered Mr Lax by saying that look, I couldn't stop this guy, Pat, because he is from another SDU and they've got their own policy, he is not going to interfere with that, and in any event, if he told him not to do it, he would be viewed by his own local people, as siding with the enemy in trying to prevent them from being attacked.

MR LAX: Except to say this, that Mnini Dlamini wasn't viewed in that light, he was a fellow SDU Commander from a different area, he made it clear, and there were no consequences in that, although he didn't address us on that issue.

Simply put, if he knew that there was nothing that he could do to stop Pat from going on this attack, then his pointing out doesn't amount to anything. Pat was determined to go on it, that was his evidence. He said there was nothing I could have done to stop him, plus I was afraid of being pointed out and to use the colloquial term, in essence he would have been regarded as a traitor if he hadn't supplied the information, to put it as bluntly as that.

The second aspect is the question of the policy. He is seeking amnesty for his role in an attack which was against policy. We heard that yesterday.

Attacks were only permissible where you could pinpoint the precise individuals, but random hitting of areas, and it is patently clear that it was a random hit, it wasn't a hit on specific individuals, that much is clear from his evidence, that is not within the bounds of the ANC's broad policy.

It is not even in the bounds of a preemptive hit, because you don't know who you are going to hit. How do we then get around what political object is there, and is it proportional and proximate, and all that sort of thing? If we get into that debate?

MR WILLS: If I could go to the first question, if I was a Prosecutor in a criminal trial, and I was, the accused said that there was nothing he could do to stop the attack, my question would be well, why did you point the attack out? Why did you point the place out? That is the first instance.

Now, I know he says that he didn't want to be pointed out as a sell-out, or he didn't want to lose the credibility within his community basically, but I submit that in the light of the whole of his evidence, it must be seen that he also indicated quite clearly that he wanted those people to be taken out.

Those were the attackers that attacked him on a regular basis. He certainly was quite happy for Pat, at no stage did he say in his application, in his papers, or in his papers, if my memory serves me correctly, that he didn't want Pat to go ahead.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he actually supported it, but you see, I think it is quite clear, the applicant himself subjectively feels guilty about it, because this is the first time it has ever come to light. He hasn't been charged, or he hasn't even been suspected, etc, and it seems that raising these two incidents, where he played a very small sort of almost distinct role, distant role in the whole thing.

MR WILLS: That is my submission exactly, he had no reason to come to the Committee unless he felt that he had been involved in a crime. The difficulty with these things is that if he were charged, there may well be more substantial evidence, where certain people would give evidence, and we might find that there was more to it.

My submission is that his role does amount to a crime, and it might with the law in relation to common purpose, might in fact even although it will be unlikely, it may well be regarded, he may be regarded as having murdered those people, or charged with murdering those people at the least.

As regard to the second point that Committee member, Mr Lax, raised about the political motivation, I submit that it is clear from the evidence of the higher profile applicants yesterday, that there was (indistinct) of proper political training, and political education and instruction.

Clearly it appeared from what the applicants said yesterday, that one of their purposes was to use an MK person, who was trained properly and correctly, to go into the areas and to perform that role of discipline and political education and political education is obviously up to policy.

To that extent, that didn't happen here, there was no mention of MK. He even indicated that MK persons only came into the area after he had left, so there wasn't that direct education which would have enabled him to fully appreciate the policies in the first instance.

He did however, he was however told by his, the Commander of the other Unit, Mnini that Mnini thought that he didn't want to participate in that attack, but that was clearly Mnini's own position.

Be that as it may, it is not only whether an act is committed in accordance with policy of a particular organisation, that pulls it within the context of a politically motivated act. There is a whole umbrella of other circumstances, and I submit that in this instance, it falls within the ambit of Section 20(a) and in fact 20(b), and it was, the attacks were directed against political opponents.

One can go into more detail in that regard, but clearly the pro-active report, and I think with respect, the Committee could possibly take judicial notice of the fact that there was serious violence in these rural areas, particularly in the townships.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that, and in fact the applicant himself has told us that it was, the situation had reached an intolerable point. They were just being attacked, in broad daylight they were having their stock taken, they had no guns, they were sitting ducks.

MR WILLS: Yes, indeed. To that extent, the attack was directed against members of an opposing political party. I have looked at a couple of judgements.

Mr Lax raised the point of innocence. The PAC matter, the amnesty decision AM5939/97, and 5784/97 and 0293/96, those were PAC people who granted, had more of a cover by policy, but essentially they were just told to go and attack whites.

They went into a night club and just shot randomly into a nightclub and injured and killed certain persons, and they were granted amnesty because it was in a political context. I submit that there is a difference in this instance, in the sense that their authority was more direct, however, the indiscriminate nature and the proportionality of the attacks, is far - sorry the proportionality in this instance, isn't as extreme as it is in the attacks, those attacks on clearly persons who they don't even know in Newcastle.

At least in this instance the attack was directed at a known area where political opponents came from. It also, I think the other point to bear in mind is, whilst we don't know what happened, we clearly know that the attack didn't go discriminately against houses. There is no report of that.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that, yes. All we know is that three bodies were found near the river, which was the border line between the two areas.

MR WILLS: Yes, indeed. My submission is that in that regard, the proportionality isn't adverse against the applicant in this instance.

MR LAX: Do we even know whether those three bodies were the result of Pat's work or his comrades' work, other than that they were more or less contemporaneous? We don't know who those people are?

MR WILLS: No clearly, we don't know who those people are, and neither do we know who the persons are in the first instance, so in that sense, there is no reason to discriminate between the first and the second instance.

But again, the contemporaneity of the events, leads me to submit that there is a probability that those bodies were related to Pat's attack. In his application for example, he talks and he also mentioned it in his evidence, the applicant mentions this person coming up from the direction of the river, with his arm bleeding, and hearing gunfire. It is clear, and then he goes down to the river and he sees those bodies.

One must assume and they reported that they had a battle on the river, so one must assume that clearly those - and then he goes and he sees, obviously he was told where the battle was. He goes down and he sees where those bodies are, so I submit that those bodies were bodies that were, persons who died in that battle.

I would submit in brief that the same type of decision worded as the Chairperson did, in respect of the first incident, would be appropriate in the second incident.

Unless there is anything else to address on the issue of full disclosure, I submit he has satisfied that fully.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't think we've got any reason to believe that he has purposefully held back any relevant information. I think if he was telling an untruth, he would have not even bothered to have applied, especially in respect of the first two incidents.

MR WILLS: Yes, indeed thank you. Unless there is anything further, that is my address.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Ms Thabete, do you have any submissions?

MS THABETE: No submissions, I will abide by the decision of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will reserve our decision in this matter. We will hand down a written decision. Thank you very much. That then brings these proceedings, this application to an end. Thank you Ms Thabete for your assistance in the matter, thank you Mr Wills, for your assistance, not only today, but also yesterday.

We've got one more matter left, the Zulu matter?

MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You have indicated that you would like us just to adjourn and then reconvene, you will tell us when you are ready to start?

MS THABETE: I will do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will now just take a short adjournment, between this and the next application. If you can just let us know when you are ready to start, thank you.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you everybody. We will now be commencing with the application of Mr Zakhele Amos Zulu. I have introduced the panel already. I would request the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Chairman, I confirm that I appear on behalf of the applicant in these proceedings. My surname is Maharaj and the initial is K.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Maharaj.

MS THABETE: I am Ms Thabela Thabete, the Evidence Leader. Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I just again inform the people in the audience that the proceedings are simultaneously translated and in order to get the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices.

English is on channel 2, Zulu is on channel 3. These devices are available from the Sound Technician in the front here. Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Maharaj.

EXAMINATION BY MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, might I have leave to lead the applicant on certain issues of common cause?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. If Ms Thabete gets a problem with it, she can object at any time, but I think from the reading of the papers, there seems to be quite a lot that is common cause.

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you. Mr Zulu, it is common cause that you were convicted of the murder of four people in the Durban Supreme Court on the 5th of May 1994, and the names of these people that you have murdered, appear from ...

CHAIRPERSON: Pages 23 and 24 of the papers.

MR MAHARAJ: From pages 23 and 24 of the papers?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct, you were convicted of the murder of Shlale Shlomile, Alfius Mbaso, Babulo Joseph Mthetwa, Sitize Dadada Ndamande and Johannes Hlatswayo and also of the attempted murder of Mpikiseni Njoyisa? Is that correct?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, is it not also correct that you were sentenced in respect of all these offences to serve a term of imprisonment of 12 years?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: During or about July 1992, can you please tell the Committee where were you residing?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: Where was that?

MR ZULU: I was residing in Ndwedwe, Madada.

MR MAHARAJ: Can you please specify in which area of Ndwedwe or Madada were you residing?

MR ZULU: I resided in Madada, the area that was Inkatha area.

MR MAHARAJ: Was there any specific name that was ascribed to this Inkatha area that you resided in?

MR ZULU: Dendeni.

MR MAHARAJ: How long is it that you resided in this area for?

MR ZULU: Since birth.

MR MAHARAJ: During your lifetime, did you belong to any particular political party?

MR ZULU: Inkatha party.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of Inkatha or just a supporter?

MR ZULU: I was the Youth Organiser of Inkatha.

MR MAHARAJ: For the record, can you tell the Committee whether your parents were members or supporters of the Inkatha party?

MR ZULU: They were Inkatha followers, my parents that is.

MR MAHARAJ: Did a set of events or circumstances lead you to leave the area that you were residing in and move to some other area?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: What happened?

MR ZULU: We were attacked by people of Ngonweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was that area? Can you just say the people of which area?

MR ZULU: We were attacked by people of Ngonweni, ANC people.

MR MAHARAJ: You say you were attacked, how is it that these attacks came about?

MR ZULU: They attacked the IFP base and they killed people, the IFP area that is.

MR MAHARAJ: When would you say this had happened?

MR ZULU: If my memory serves me right, I think it was in the middle of 1992.

MR LAX: How long before the incident for which you were convicted?

MR ZULU: Please repeat your question.

MR LAX: Can you remember how long this attack on you or your area, that forced you to move, how long was that attack before the attack that you are here applying for amnesty for?

MR ZULU: If I am not mistaken, I think that took place around August, July.

MR MAHARAJ: And as a result of these attacks you say you moved away to another area?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: Where did you move to?

MR ZULU: Ndelani area.

MR MAHARAJ: Let's get to the events which led up to the murders of these people, or the killing of these people on the 2nd of February 1993.

I would like you to tell the Committee how is it that it came, or who is it that decided that these people that belonged, or that these people should be killed.

MR ZULU: Since the end of 1992, we were abiding in these areas peacefully, not resenting each other.

They arrived in 1992 and they attacked the IFP area and killed IFP members. Soon after that, since we felt this is, the violence was so rife, and we decided we should run away and go and reside in a different area, Ndelani, the area.

We got there and stayed there a while. The following year, just before February, before we attacked Mr Buxusa arrived and he is the one who told us that we should go and attack the Ngonweni area and also said, he also told us that we would find those people in a certain place. We got to that area or to that place at about three o'clock, and we found them indeed gathered there because Mr Buxusa had already told us that they will meet at that particular place for a certain meeting and they were planning a plot against us, discussing a plot against us.

We got there even before they could get to us, and attacked them right away.

MR MAHARAJ: Before you go on, who is Mr Buxusa?

MR ZULU: Mr Buxusa was the Head or the leader of the IFP in our area.

MR MAHARAJ: Is Buxusa his surname or his first name?

MR ZULU: Mr Mbonambi, Mbonambi is the surname, Buxusa is the name.

MR MAHARAJ: Do you know what position if any, Mr Buxusa occupied or enjoyed in the IFP?

MR ZULU: All I knew about Buxusa was that he is the leader of the IFP in the area, which we resided in.

MR MAHARAJ: These acts that you committed on the 2nd of February, were these acts committed as a result of any specific directions from Mr Buxusa Mbonambi?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: Tell the Committee in further detail please, what happened when you arrived at this house.

MR LAX: Just before he goes to that, maybe he could just elaborate on what his instructions were before he got there.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, please tell the Committee what were your instructions from Mr Buxusa Mbonambi if any about you having to go to the area where the ANC, which was occupied by the ANC, what were your instructions?

MR ZULU: Mr Buxusa furnished us with instructions that the ANC people at Ngonweni had already killed from our side. In that way, he went on to say to us that these people should be attacked at a certain place and that is where we will find them, gathering there and we should eliminate them, kill them.

MR LAX: What place was that? You said a certain place, which is this certain place?

MR ZULU: That is the ANC area that we went to attack those people from.

MR LAX: So that is Ngonweni, Ngonweni?

MR ZULU: Yes, Ngonweni, the name of the place.

MR LAX: So he didn't specify a particular "moozie" or kraal or house or ...?

MR ZULU: He did make mention of the fact that we would get to a certain house and it will be Mthetwa's house, where we will find them.

MR LAX: Mthetwa's house you said?

MR ZULU: Yes, Mthetwa's house.

MR LAX: Did you know which house that was?

MR ZULU: The way he gave us the direction and the description of the house, we knew.

MR LAX: Who was in control of your group?

MR ZULU: You mean in control, the leader of the Unit, of the group?

MR LAX: Of the group of people that went on this mission?

MR ZULU: It was myself.

CHAIRPERSON: How large was your group?

MR ZULU: We were four of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who the other three were?

MR ZULU: The first one was Linda Luthuli, the second one Zita Zulu, the third one was Ndumiso Sangweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Zulu. Tell the Committee please what happened when you got to this group of people?

MR ZULU: Please repeat your question Mr Maharaj.

MR MAHARAJ: What happened when you got to this group of people?

CHAIRPERSON: When you got to Mthetwa's house, what happened?

MR ZULU: We got there and we stabbed them, and they died.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you personally armed with?

MR ZULU: I had a knife and a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of firearm?

MR ZULU: 388.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you use it at all?

MR ZULU: I did not use the firearm, I only used my knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Maharaj.

MR MAHARAJ: And can you tell the Committee how were the other persons armed?

MR ZULU: Yes, I can tell the Committee. Zita Zulu had in his possession a butcher's knife and a knife, plus a firearm. Ndumiso Sangweni had a spear this long, and a firearm.

MR LAX: Slow down a bit, we have to try and write this down and you are going a little bit fast.

CHAIRPERSON: You said Sangweni had a spear this long, how long, can you indicate the size of the spear? He indicates approximately one meter.

MR ZULU: This spear was this long.

CHAIRPERSON: He indicates approximately one meter, a stabbing spear. And Luthuli?

MR ZULU: Luthuli had a knife plus a firearm.

MR LAX: Did I hear you correctly that Sangweni also had in addition to that spear, a firearm as well?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: When you got to Mthetwa's house, did you identify any specific persons that you wanted to attack?

MR ZULU: Yes, we identified those people we were in search of.

MR MAHARAJ: And who were these people that you wanted to attack?

MR ZULU: Do you mean I should furnish you with their names?

MR MAHARAJ: Let me rather rephrase that, how is it that you identified these people as being persons that you wanted to attack?

MR ZULU: We knew because the place was demarcated into two sections. You will find one area or section belonging to the IFP and the other one from the road, be ANC.

MR MAHARAJ: You must go a little slower because everybody has to write down notes. You said that the two areas were demarcated by a road?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is true.

MR MAHARAJ: And the two different areas that were demarcated by the road, the one area was occupied by members that belonged to the IFP party and the other section was occupied by members that belonged to the ANC party?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, I would like you to tell the Committee how is it that you identified the persons whom you attacked. By what means did you identify the persons that you attacked?

MR ZULU: According to my knowledge, we knew perfectly well that as that was the ANC and the IFP area, we would leave our base and go and attack the ANC area. It did not matter as to who would be IFP or ANC, as long as we find you in the ANC area, we will be attacking.

MR MAHARAJ: Sorry, in other words, there were no specific persons you were going to attack, but you were going to attack people who were staying in the ANC stronghold?

MR ZULU: As I have already explained before, we were already told by Mr Buxusa that we should go to that place and that particular house, that is where we would find these people we were looking for.

MR MAHARAJ: But did you have the specific people you were supposed to attack, either by description or by names?

MR ZULU: Some of them formed part of the group that attacked us.

MR LAX: You haven't really answered the question. You see I am hearing you say two different things at the same time, and that is what we are trying to clear up.

On the one hand you are saying you went to an area, it was demarcated by a road that on one side of the road, was ANC and on the other side of the road, was IFP.

You would have attacked anybody you found there, regardless of who they were, as long as they were in the ANC area. Then you add, well it had to be at Mthetwa's house, okay but the way it was put was, it doesn't matter who was there, if they were at that place, you were going to attack them. That is the one thing that you are saying.

On the other hand, you are also saying that you went to Mthetwa's house because you knew that the people who had been attacking you, would be at Mthetwa's house. Can you explain this for us?

MR ZULU: The people we were looking for, that we wanted to attack, we have been given information by Mr Buxusa as to where we would locate them. We went there truly and found them and killed them.

MR LAX: Yes, the question really is this, did Mr Buxusa say to you that you must look for Mr so and so and Mr so and so and Mr so and so or did he just say to you when you get to Mthetwa's place, you will find some people there, I am not sure exactly who they are or what their names are, but whoever is there, you must just kill them?

MR ZULU: Mr Buxusa did not give us the names, but he said he had already heard from his reliable sources that they will be gathering there for a meeting on this particular day, so we should go there and that is where we would find them conveniently, and kill them.

MR MAHARAJ: And when you attacked these people, you and the other three that were in your company, did you attack these people at random or did you specifically choose a particular victim and attack him?

MR ZULU: We attacked them at random.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, it would appear from the record of the criminal trial against yourself, that neither yourself nor any of your co-perpetrators disguised yourself or made any attempt to conceal your facial features. Is there any particular reason for that?

MR ZULU: Because I wanted the people to see and identify me exactly for who I am, as an IFP, that is why we did not disguise.

MR MAHARAJ: At the time that you attacked the deceased and the complainants, the victims, did you or any of your co-perpetrators ever steal any items from the complainants, from the deceased or from any of the victims?

MR ZULU: No. That did not happen.

MR MAHARAJ: It is also apparent from the record that a certain Mrs Maria Gcabashe was present throughout this attack?

MR ZULU: Please repeat what you have just said.

MR MAHARAJ: It is apparent from the proceedings in the Supreme Court that a certain Mrs Maria Gcabashe was present throughout this attack that you and your co-perpetrators had done on that day in question?

MR ZULU: I don't know the name Maria Gcabashe, it is my first encounter with this name.

MR MAHARAJ: During the course of this attack on this people, do you remember seeing a lady out there, who was present and who was witnessing these attacks on the people?

MR ZULU: Yes, I recall that.

MR MAHARAJ: Was any attempt made by yourself or any of your co-perpetrators to kill, maim or injure Maria Gcabashe or the lady that was present on that day in question?

MR ZULU: No, we did not attempt that.

MR MAHARAJ: Was this attack carried out during the day or at night?

MR ZULU: It was during the day, at about three o'clock in the afternoon.

MR MAHARAJ: Was there any reason for not attacking the lady or ladies that were present at the time that you committed these attacks?

MR ZULU: The reason why we did not attempt to attack the lady, was that she did not form part of the big group that came to attack us in our area, the IFP area that is.

MR MAHARAJ: Are you saying then that the other persons that were either killed or assaulted by you and your co-perpetrators, were members of a group, a larger group that attacked people in your area?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: About how much prior to this incident in February 1993, did this other attack that you referred to, take place?

MR ZULU: Our incident, it was around August 1992 when we were attacked.

MR MAHARAJ: As a result of that attack, Mr Zulu, can you tell the Committee whether any members or supporters of the IFP were killed by members of the attacking party?

MR ZULU: Please repeat your question.

MR MAHARAJ: During the attack, you referred to an attack that took place during or around August 1992, during that attack, were any members of the IFP killed during that attack by the opposing party?

MR ZULU: Yes, they were.

MR MAHARAJ: Can you tell the Committee the names of those people that were killed?

MR ZULU: The first one was Mr Luthuli, an old man. The second one was Mr Sithole, he was fairly old as well.

The third one was Thulani Zulu.

MR MAHARAJ: You mentioned Mr Luthuli, was Mr Luthuli related to you in any way?

MR ZULU: Mr Luthuli was not related to me.

MR MAHARAJ: Was Mr Luthuli related to your co-accused in the criminal proceedings?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: You mentioned the third person as being Thulani Zulu, was Thulani Zulu related to you in any way?

MR ZULU: Yes, he was my relative.

MR LAX: Just for completeness sake, Mr Luthuli, what was he to your co-accused?

MR ZULU: He was a father to the co-accused.

MR LAX: And Sithole, the late Sithole?

MR ZULU: He was a neighbour.

MR LAX: Of Luthuli or of yourself, or both of you, I don't know?

MR ZULU: Luthuli's neighbour.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Maharaj.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, did you identify the party that had actually attacked the IFP and had killed these people?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: Who was that?

MR ZULU: The first one who was leading them, was Shonisosi. The second one was Zenzile Shangase. The others, I don't remember their names, but I know them by sight.

MR MAHARAJ: This attack that was mounted upon the deceased and the other complainants in the criminal charge by yourself and your co-perpetrators, I would like you to tell the Committee, was this attack mounted purely as a result of you wanting to get personal vengeance as a result of your relative having been killed, or was it done for any other political reason?

MR ZULU: We did not mount this attack as a result that our relatives were killed, but we had to attack them because we would then be free to have our meetings as IFP with no disturbance from the other side.

MR MAHARAJ: Let's take the situation a little further, let us assume that a member of the IFP who was residing in your area, the IFP area, had killed your brother, what would have been the proper proceedings, or accepted procedure within your community to have been followed?

MR ZULU: Please repeat.

MR MAHARAJ: Let us assume that a member of your relatives was killed by a member of the IFP, who was residing on your side of the road, what would have been the procedure that would have followed to resolve the matter?

MR ZULU: We would have sat down and discussed the matter.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, at page 39 of the bundle of papers, there is a warning statement that was taken down from you for the purposes of the criminal proceedings.

In that warning statement you mentioned a person by the name of Mbeki Mkhize. Can you tell the Committee whether in fact you had furnished the name of that person to the person that had taken down your warning statement?

MR ZULU: To tell the honest truth, I don't know this Mbeki Mkhize. I was in the company of the other three.

MR MAHARAJ: The other three that you mentioned to the Committee earlier on?

MR ZULU: That is true.

MR MAHARAJ: During the course of the criminal trial, is there any particular reason why you did not tell the Presiding Judge what the reason was for you having been part and parcel of this group that had perpetrated these acts upon the deceased and the complainant?

MR ZULU: Won't you please repeat that question.

MR MAHARAJ: It is apparent from the criminal record that you never gave the version that you are giving to the Committee today.

MR ZULU: The situation that prevailed at the time, was not quite conducive for me to divulge that much information to the Court of law, because I was, I did not plead guilty and I also wanted to shorten the sentence.

By so doing, I thought that would be effective.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, the people that were killed and injured, are you satisfied that those were the same people that were part and parcel of a group that had perpetrated an attack upon the IFP camp as it were on a previous occasion?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: During the period 1992 - 1993, would you indicate to the Committee, what was the intensity of the violence in the area that you had lived in, in the Ndwedwe, Madada area?

MR ZULU: Violence erupted in 1992, until we vacated the area to Lindelani area. That is where we will mix with the ANC, IFP and ANC.

We will not live peacefully still in Lindelani, and we were living in a situation that suggested we were fighting, the two groups were fighting each other, the IFP and the ANC.

MR MAHARAJ: As a result of the political violence that existed in that area at that particular time, can you indicate to the Committee what was the accepted norm if people had come to your camp and attacked and killed members of the community, or rather members of your political party?

What was the accepted norm that was used to retaliate against the party that was attacking your party?

MR ZULU: With regards to the attackers, it was a usual exercise that we will have to retaliate, since they would have attacked us first.

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Maharaj. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask Mr Zulu?

MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do, but can I ask for a two minute adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take a very short adjournment.

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabete? I am sorry, if you can just wait for Mr Zulu to get his headphones on.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, before I proceed, I would like to correct something in the bundle, in the application form in English, the translation. Page 15, number 10(b). In Zulu, on the Zulu one it is on page 627, it is from the line in fact we wanted peace in our area, from there onwards it should read we also wanted peace in our organisation, but due to their actions, we could not or we failed to persevere such a situation.

Due to their actions, we could not or we failed to persevere such a situation, or tolerate. To tolerate such a situation. It replaces that whole paragraph, yes because we could also get killed. We admit to having committed the offences, we ask for forgiveness for the act of killing and injuring ANC people.

I don't know if you would like the translator to confirm that that is correct from her Zulu version.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that Madam Translator?

INTERPRETER: Yes, I confer, yes, I do confer.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: If the Committee members would bear with me. Mr Zulu, is it correct that you stayed under the then Nkosi Khumalo, at Jojweni area?

MR ZULU: No. That is a mistake.

MS THABETE: Where did you live?

MR ZULU: I lived in Madada, at Madada (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Who was your Nkosi there, your Chief in that area?

MR ZULU: It was Khumalo.

MS THABETE: Would it be correct to say that the incident occurred at Jojweni under the Nkosi Cele?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is true.

MS THABETE: In your application, page 16 of the bundle, number 11(a) of your application, you were asked a question who gave you an instruction to commit the offence that you did. Can you explain why you didn't mention Buxusa Mbonambi?

MR ZULU: Please repeat your question.

MS THABETE: I am asking you, in your application you were asked a question as to who gave you an order to kill the people you did at Mthetwa's place, and you wrote not applicable.

What I am asking you is, why didn't you mention Buxusa Mbonambi in your application form?

MR ZULU: It is because I was not alone, as I was filling the application form, and I was depending upon the assistance of another person.

MS THABETE: What do you mean, do you mean somebody wrote it for you? Is it not your own words that are written in the application, is that what you are saying?

MR ZULU: Those are my words in the application.

MS THABETE: So why didn't you mention Buxusa?

MR ZULU: I was confused I suppose, it has been long since I have been in prison.

MS THABETE: Is it correct that you were actually in your area, you were not a group of four, but you were actually a group of nine, isn't that right?

MR ZULU: That is a mistake.

MS THABETE: I am going to ask you now about the incident, when you went to Mthetwa's area, you called aside Musawenkosi, what did you say to him?

Musawenkosi Cele, yes.

MR ZULU: No, I will refute that, I do not have any knowledge of that.

MS THABETE: Are you saying you never called him aside, you and your group?

MR ZULU: No, we never.

MS THABETE: You just came there and you killed all of them?

MR ZULU: Yes. Because we had already been told that that is where we will find them.

MS THABETE: In your evidence today you said that you don't know anything about Maria Gcabashe, do you remember?

MR ZULU: It is the name and the surname that I don't know, that I heard for the first time here.

MS THABETE: Were you in court when you were charged and convicted, were you present in court?

MR ZULU: Yes, I was present.

MS THABETE: Didn't you hear any mention of Maria Gcabashe who was a witness?

MR ZULU: I heard, yes.

MS THABETE: So why are you saying that you never heard of her before?

MR ZULU: This Maria Gcabashe we are busy talking about, I know her as a Khumalo, yet married to Mthetwa. This is why I said I don't know anything about Maria Gcabashe.

MS THABETE: Was she referred to as Maria Gcabashe?

MR ZULU: Yes, she was referred to as Maria Gcabashe.

MS THABETE: Is it not correct that you belonged to a group which called themselves Sinamandla?

MR ZULU: No, that is not true, it was one of us whose nickname was Sinamandla.

MS THABETE: Is it also not true that in this group or this gang, or are you denying the fact that there was a gang called Sinamandla?

MR ZULU: Yes, I am denying that fact.

MR LAX: Whose nickname was Sinamandla? Which of your group's nickname was Sinamandla?

MR ZULU: Linda Luthuli's nickname was Sinamandla.

MS THABETE: So you wouldn't know anything about a group that harassed and raped women in your area?

INTERPRETER: May the speaker repeat her question?

MR LAX: She doesn't have her headphones on, so she can't hear you. The question was you didn't know about a group of people that harassed and raped women, and harassed the people in the area, called Sinamandla?

MR ZULU: No, I have no knowledge to that effect.

MS THABETE: Is it not true that you and other people, who - you were a group of people, who went into a church and harassed the reverend, you do not know anything about that?

MR ZULU: No, I don't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it was necessarily in a church, it was at a party where a reverend was holding prayers.

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, my instruction was that it was actually in a church.

MR LAX: You don't remember that incident?

MR ZULU: No, I don't remember that incident.

MS THABETE: Is it also not true that in this area where the deceased were killed, there was no political conflict?

MS THABETE: There was political violence at that area.

MS THABETE: In your evidence today, in your evidence today, you told us that Linda Luthuli's father was killed and some of your relatives were killed, is that correct?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: So, wouldn't you say that you were revenging the death of your relatives and your co-accused's relative?

MR ZULU: The fact that our relatives were hurt and were killed, did not matter. We would have retaliated still even if those people were not related to us.

MS THABETE: You see Mr Zulu, I have been instructed by the victims and also our Investigator has investigated, and the finding was that you belonged to a group, a gang that harassed people and raped women in the area and also ...

MR LAX: Just slowly, slowly, put one thing to him at a time please.

Put one thing to him at a time, so that he can answer one thing at a time. If you put too many averments to him, then when he answers, we don't know which one he is replying to.

CHAIRPERSON: The first thing that has been put to you, it has been put to you that you belonged to a group which harassed people and raped women.

MR ZULU: That is not true. That is a mistake.

MS THABETE: Sorry Mr Chairman, can I get guidance here. I don't know whether I should repeat it one by one, because I actually asked him one by one whether he belonged, and he has denied all of that, so I just wanted to ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think he has, that he belonged to a group, he has already said that he hasn't heard of Sinamandla, so I think that is all right, carry on with your questions.

MS THABETE: So can I put whatever he has denied, can I put it to him because that is what I want to do now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETE: Mr Zulu, I was still saying, my instructions and according to our investigation, you belonged to a gang, Sinamandla which harassed people and women. You also assaulted a reverend in church.

CHAIRPERSON: I think just ask him as you go along, what he says to it each time. What do you say to that, did you belong to a gang called Sinamandla, you have already denied that.

It is also put to you that you were part of a group that assaulted a certain reverend?

MR ZULU: That I don't know.

MS THABETE: I have also been instructed Mr Zulu, that actually there was no political conflict in the area, you were just a group of criminals who harassed people, what is your response to that?

MR ZULU: I refute all of what you have just said.

MS THABETE: It is also my instructions that you targeted innocent people, who were sitting under a tree drinking beer, who had not even attacked you. What is your response to that?

MR ZULU: The people we attacked, formed part of the big group that attacked the IFP people.

MS THABETE: Mr Zulu, I am going to call a witness who is going to testify that he was there when your people were attacked, and the people that you attacked, were not part of the people that attacked your relatives.

MR ZULU: I am certain about the facts that they were present. Whether you call him or not, I will still say that in his or her eyes.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Maharaj, do you have any re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Mr Chairperson. Mr Zulu, when members of the IFP were attacked, were you present?

MR ZULU: Please repeat your question.

MR SIBANYONI: When members of the IFP were attacked, were you present?

MR ZULU: Yes, I was present.

MR SIBANYONI: Where did it take place?

MR ZULU: This took place not too far away from my house, in the neighbourhood, it was in the morning at around six o'clock. They got there and killed Mr Luthuli and Mr Sithole.

MR SIBANYONI: How many were the people who attacked Mr Luthuli and Mr Sithole?

MR ZULU: It was a massive group. I could not count them.

MR SIBANYONI: Approximately if you say they were a large group?

MR ZULU: I cannot give a rough estimation since it was a large group.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it five people, or was it 20 people, was it as many people as are sitting in the auditorium here, was it 1 000 people? Can't you give some sort of indication?

MR ZULU: It my opinion, I would think there were more than 50. They arrived at about six in the morning.

MR SIBANYONI: How did you know that they were ANC members?

MR ZULU: Please repeat your question.

MR SIBANYONI: How did you know that these people who came to attack, these 50 people, were ANC members?

MR ZULU: It is because we saw, we could recognise some of them. We could tell and establish that these are the people who came to attack and yet at the same time, we knew their names, some of them that is, not all of them.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying you knew them out of that group of 50 people, that they were people who came to attack?

MR ZULU: It was not dark, it was during the day, it was daylight in the morning, so you could tell and recognise the faces. Some of them, we knew their names, and we knew where they resided as well.

MR SIBANYONI: Let's move to the day when you people went to attack at Mthetwa's house. How many people were there?

MR ZULU: I don't remember as to how many there were.

MR SIBANYONI: Were there 10 or 50?

MR ZULU: I don't think they were above 25, or more than 25.

MR SIBANYONI: What exactly were they doing when you arrived?

MR ZULU: They were sitting down.

MR SIBANYONI: Were they sitting down outside the house, under a tree?

MR ZULU: Yes, they were outside under a tree, sitting there.

MR SIBANYONI: Were they drinking?

MR ZULU: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Maharaj asked you a question, which to my mind, you didn't answer. He said how did you recognise them or identify them as the people who came to attack at your area when you arrived there at Mthetwa's house.

MR ZULU: Mr Buxusa had already told us that we would find them at Mthetwa's house, that is where they would have gathered.

MR SIBANYONI: I am now at the stage where you arrived at Mthetwa's house, how did you know that these are the people who had attacked you previously or they were different people? By what marks did you identify them?

MR ZULU: Some of them had been present when we had been attacked.

MR SIBANYONI: Were all the deceased people present at the previous attack?

MR ZULU: Yes, they were present, and even those who were injured, were present when we were attacked.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you didn't disguise yourself during this attack, because you wanted the people to know that it was the IFP which attacked, did I understand your correctly?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is exactly what I said.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you have any other indications, like arm bands or anything to identify yourselves as Inkatha members?

MR ZULU: I was wearing an IFP T-shirt.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni. Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Do you remember you got a letter from the TRC and you were asked to answer some questions?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR LAX: You wrote a letter. Did you write the letter, or did someone help you write the letter?

MR ZULU: Somebody assisted me.

MR LAX: Did that person read the answers to you?

MR ZULU: Yes, they did read them to me.

MR LAX: Now, in reply to the question and just for the benefit of the record, these questions appear in a letter at page 20 and 21 of the record, it is question 4 at page 20, the question was were any orders given to kill the five ANC members and if so, and I will leave out the first couple of parts, what was the specific orders/instructions? Your answer appears on page 22 as follows, the instruction was that we must shoot/kill any ANC members in that particular area.

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR LAX: That ties in with your first bit of evidence that you gave to us in your evidence in chief, when you were being led by Mr Maharaj, that you went to that area and you were going to kill any person that you found in that area.

Later on in your evidence, you then changed your evidence and you said well, we knew it was Mthetwa's place and Buxusa said that if we went there, we would find the people who had attacked us.

I want you to explain why you gave this answer in reply to that question.

MR ZULU: With regards to the attack?

MR LAX: Why did you say that you went to attack any person you should find in that area?

MR ZULU: It is because Mr Buxusa had already instructed us to go and kill in that area, in fact kill anybody who was present at the meeting.

MR LAX: You see that then makes your statement that the people you killed, were the very people who attacked you and your family and the Luthuli's family, and that you could identify them, totally irrelevant.

It didn't matter to you whether they were part of the attack or not. You went there to kill whoever you would find in that place? Why did you have to identify anybody?

Do you see my point?

MR ZULU: Mr Buxusa gave this order, because IFP members' herds had been attacked.

MR LAX: Why did you wait six months before you went and attacked this area again?

MR ZULU: We were still planning for the attack because we were actually afraid of them.

MR LAX: But you went and attacked people who were sitting down under a tree, drinking beer? What were you afraid of, they didn't even have weapons on them?

MR ZULU: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: The question was that you went and attacked people who were sitting down, unsuspecting, under a tree, drinking beer. They didn't have weapons with them, you just arrived and attacked them. What were you afraid of?

You never met any resistance, did you?

MR ZULU: We approached them whilst they were not suspecting that we would actually arrive there.

CHAIRPERSON: If you were afraid of them, why didn't you shoot them? Why go up and slice them and stab them and cut them?

MR ZULU: When we approached, we actually approached from a direction where there were a lot of trees, so they did not see us approaching. If you are attacked in that manner, that is if you are unsuspecting, you are actually shocked when you realise that people are there to attack you, and when we actually came up on them, they were shocked because they were not expecting us.

MR LAX: You went there expecting to find an ANC meeting, is that right?

MR ZULU: That is correct.

MR LAX: But you didn't find an ANC meeting, you found four or five people sitting around under the trees, drinking, isn't that so?

MR ZULU: There were more than five.

MR LAX: You say there were 25 people sitting there?

MR ZULU: I said there were not more than 25.

MR LAX: Well, how is it that you didn't attack and kill more people then? Why didn't you just shoot the whole lot of them, you had guns? If these were the people that had attacked your area, why didn't you use your guns and shoot the lot of them and get the most benefit out of your attack?

MR ZULU: Some of them fled and the others remained. They fled to the trees, so I could not have shot at somebody who had actually hidden in the trees.

MR LAX: It is your evidence that they never saw you coming, you could have sneaked up, you could have aimed your firearms and you could have shot the whole lot of them before they had a chance to move.

If that was your intention to go there and attack the people who had attacked your area, while they were having a meeting, why didn't you do that?

MR ZULU: The situation was that we were also not very sure of what was going to happen, because these people were also taking traditional medicine just as much as we did.

MR LAX: You expected to come upon a meeting, on your version there was a meeting going on, correct?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR LAX: So people who are busy in a meeting, aren't looking around them to see what is going on outside and around on the outside of the meeting. Isn't that so?

MR ZULU: That is correct.

MR LAX: So you told us that you sneaked up on them, out of the trees.

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR LAX: Why didn't you just open fire and run back into the trees and be gone before anyone knew anything?

MR ZULU: The trees surrounded the house, so it would not have been easy to shoot at them, that is why we just went directly up to them.

MR LAX: You went up to them directly, because you wanted them to know that you were Inkatha?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR LAX: That doesn't make sense then, that you should do that. It would effect your effectiveness as an attacker?

MR ZULU: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: You minimise your effectiveness as an attacker?

MR ZULU: We were looking for them, we wanted to kill them after they had attacked the IFP.

MR LAX: Precisely, and you were expecting to find all these people that had attacked you at a meeting?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Again, explain why you didn't kill as many of them as you possibly could, if these were the very people that had attacked you? Why didn't you use your firearms once you had used your knives?

MR ZULU: Some of them fled.

MR LAX: We are not talking about some of them, we are talking about up to 25 people. There were only six people that were injured or killed. Even if we say there were 20, that still leaves another 14 people available?

MR ZULU: That is because those fled.

MR LAX: This area that you attacked, was that also under Nkosi Khumalo?

MR ZULU: No.

MR LAX: Which Nkosi was this under?

MR ZULU: Cele.

MR LAX: And why had people from that area, attacked your area?

MR ZULU: Please repeat your question.

MR LAX: Why had people from Cele's area, attacked your area which was Khumalo's area?

MR ZULU: I do not know. I don't understand how it happened.

MR LAX: Well you see, in your application form you say people from Umbumbulu came and attacked and caused the trouble. Do you remember you wrote that in your application form?

MR ZULU: I remember, it is just that this happened a while ago.

MR LAX: Yes, but I find it very surprising that you can't explain why these attacks took place.

MR ZULU: You see, you told us that things were peaceful until the end of 1992 in your area.

MR ZULU: That is correct.

MR LAX: Well in fact, they weren't peaceful because there was an attack in the middle of 1992? Please explain this.

MR ZULU: The ANC attacked the IFP and they were from the Umbumbulu area. These are the people who were responsible for the start of the violence in the area.

They actually attacked the Xebani household. That is when the violence started and we also wanted to attack them in return.

MR LAX: You see, you said it was peaceful until the end of 1992. This attack that you are talking about where your relative and Luthuli's relative was killed, was in August 1992, which is the middle of 1992.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Chairman, I think in all fairness to Mr Zulu, he didn't make specific reference by saying that, up until the end of 1992 there was peace.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you know, whether it was August or towards the end.

MR LAX: How far is Lindelani from this area that you went to attack?

MR ZULU: It is far, because you have to actually take transport, board transport to go to that area.

MR LAX: You lived at Lindelani for six months, why go and look for trouble in another area that is so far away?

MR ZULU: My intention was not to stir up trouble, but my home and our property was still in the area and we wanted to collect that property which had actually been left in our homes when we fled.

We were unable to do that because the fighting was still going on. An IFP member would have been killed if he had been found in the area by the ANC.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to the police and say to the police we need your help, we want you to accompany us, this is the kwaZulu police who were operating in Ndwedwe and Inanda and in all those areas, and say to them we need your help, we are Inkatha people, we need to go and fetch our possessions, please (indistinct) us to this place and help us get our possessions. Why didn't you do that?

MR ZULU: We went to the nearest police station, which was Macadeni and we reported to the police there that we requested to be able to go and pick up our property and those policemen said they could not accompany us because they also feared for their lives, they have small kids.

MR LAX: Are you saying that the kwaZulu police were so afraid of going into this area, that they wouldn't accompany you to fetch your possessions?

MR ZULU: We went to the Macadeni police station, that was the SAP police station.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to the kwaZulu police, which would have been people who were much more favourably disposed towards the IFP and asked them for help?

MR ZULU: They were far from where we were.

MR LAX: But you were at Lindelani, there were police close by there?

MR ZULU: There were not KZP members at Lindelani, they were at kwaMashu.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to the police and say these are the names of the people who killed my relatives, please make sure you arrest them? Why did you need to kill them yourself?

MR ZULU: We did go to the police, it was myself and some other family member, and a family member from Luthuli and we reported that people had killed our relatives. We asked them to go and pick up the bodies, and they said they would not go there, because they fear for their lives.

MR LAX: Did you point out to the police who the people were that had killed your relatives?

MR ZULU: Yes, we did.

MR LAX: And you say nothing happened?

MR ZULU: Sorry?

MR LAX: Did they investigate the case, did they open a murder docket?

MR ZULU: They last said that they were going to arrest them, but they were never arrested.

MR LAX: Did you go and find out or did you just leave and go to Lindelani?

MR ZULU: No, we did not go back, because they had not taken this matter up seriously.

MR LAX: How did you know, you were from Lindelani. You weren't even back at your area? You were in Lindelani for over six months, how did you know that nothing had happened?

MR ZULU: I went there twice and on the second occasion they told me the same thing and I decided that I was not going to return to the police station, because they were not offering any help.

MR LAX: Do you remember that Mrs Gcabashe gave evidence in the court case?

MR ZULU: Yes, I do remember.

MR LAX: She spoke of being threatened with a knife?

MR ZULU: Who threatened her?

MR LAX: I will find it for you. I beg your pardon, she was - accused 1 was ...

MS THABETE: It is page 28 - 29.

MR LAX: Number 1 was Luthuli and you were number 2, is that right?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Luthuli according to her, was armed with a sharpened length of iron, what one would call a (indistinct), is that right?

MR ZULU: He had a knife, not a (indistinct). It was Ndumisa who carried the (indistinct).

MR LAX: She said that Luthuli was standing over her husband with a knife and that he also had this (indistinct). She called out to him, she knew him she says, obviously, she cried out Linda, you have killed me.

Then this Linda then aimed a blow at her, but she stepped back and then he stabbed her husband. That was Mthetwa. Did you see that happen?

MR ZULU: I only heard of it in court, but I did not witness it happening.

MR LAX: Would you deny that it happened, if you didn't witness it?

MR ZULU: I would not deny it, because I did not witness it. I just heard it from her when she mentioned it in court.

MR LAX: Okay, so you knew all the people that were present at that meeting at Mthetwa's house? You recognised them as being people who ...

MR ZULU: I did not know all of them.

MR LAX: But it wouldn't have made any difference to you, because they were at an ANC area as far as you were concerned?

MR ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Zulu, I just forgot to put to you after I asked you the number of the people according to you, who were at Mthetwa's kraal, according to the evidence at the trail, there were only six men there, there were no 50 people. What do you say to that? There were not 25, there were only six men, what do you say to that, who were at the kraal at Mthetwa.

MR ZULU: There were not six. Those were the people who were actually injured.

MR SIBANYONI: That is the only question Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Maharaj, do you have questions arising?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Zulu, you mentioned that at approximately six o'clock in the morning, there were approximately 50 people that attacked the IFP. I would like you to tell the Committee whether the four people that were killed and the people that were injured by yourself, whether those people were part of the 50 people that attacked the IFP.

MR ZULU: They were part of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: The question by Mr Maharaj was, of the group of approximately 50 people who you say attacked the IFP area, do you say that the four deceased, the four people that you killed at Mthetwa's place and the others that were injured at Mthetwa's place, were amongst that group who attacked earlier?

MR ZULU: Yes, they were present.

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman. Just to make a follow up on the question asked by my colleague, when your people were attacked by allegedly ANC members, how were they attacked?

MR ZULU: They surrounded us, they divided themselves into three.

MS THABETE: Were you in your houses, where were you?

MR ZULU: I was at home.

MS THABETE: So they came in and they surrounded you?

MR ZULU: My home is actually along the road, so when these people approached, I could actually see them approaching and when we saw them, we fled.

MS THABETE: You fled when you saw them coming down to attack you?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETE: Because my question to you was, how did you identify these six men out of 50 people who were there, how did you manage to identify them?

MR ZULU: I would also be able to see them when they approached, that is why I fled because I recognised them, and knew who they were and that they were coming to attack us.

MS THABETE: So you are saying out of 50 people who came to attack you, you could identify the victims as one of the people who came to attack you?

MR ZULU: I mentioned before that I saw these six people who actually were amongst the group, but I also saw the rest whose names I do not know.

MS THABETE: You also talk about people from Umbumbulu, who came to attack you. How do you know these people were from Umbumbulu?

MR ZULU: They were strangers in the area, I knew them.

MS THABETE: No, I am not asking whether they were strangers, I am asking you how did you know that they were from Umbumbulu?

MR ZULU: My sister is married to somebody from Umbumbulu and she said that these people were from Umbumbulu and she knows them.

MS THABETE: Why do you think people from Umbumbulu would attack you at Ndwedwe?

MR ZULU: Because of the situation back then, they assumed that we were IFP and the ANC people from Ngonweni knew just how strong we were, and I think that is why they told these people that there is this IFP area and such and such people reside at this area.

That is why I think they came to attack us.

MS THABETE: When you attacked at the Mthetwa place, were there any people shot or did any of you fire shots?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETE: Did they fire shots at the deceased or at some people who were sitting there?

MR ZULU: We were just shooting in the air when they had already fled.

MS THABETE: Why I am asking you this, it is because in your application, the Zulu version on page 6, let me check the English one, page 15, you say we killed the ANC followers by shooting and stabbing them and hacking them, yes.

What did you mean by that if you didn't kill anyone by shooting them or was it a mistake?

MR ZULU: It is true. I meant to say that the guns or firearms were also fired.

MS THABETE: No, what I am asking you is, you say here you killed them by shooting and hacking them, and your evidence today is that you shot, you fired shots in the air and you didn't kill them by shooting at them. How do you explain that contradiction?

MR ZULU: If I shoot, pointing in a direction where you have gone into, I can not be certain that you are hit or not.

MS THABETE: No further questions.

MR LAX: But I asked you earlier why you didn't shoot at them. He is saying if you point a gun at a person, you don't know if the shots are going to hit him or not, that was his answer now.

Is that right?

MR ZULU: Sorry?

MR LAX: Did I hear you correctly that if you point a gun at a person, or you aim a gun at a person, you don't have to be sure whether the shots are going to hit or not. Was that what you said, I couldn't hear properly?

MR ZULU: Yes, I think that is what I said.

MR LAX: Yes. The question is you did actually shoot at the people, you just don't know whether you hit them or not?

MR ZULU: That is correct.

MR LAX: That is different to shooting in the air as you said earlier in your evidence, isn't it?

MR ZULU: Yes.

MR LAX: It is also different to when I asked you why you didn't shoot at them. Why didn't you say yes, but I did actually shoot at them? Why only now when it is pointed out to them, that you said in your application form that you shot and hacked at them, and you killed them by shooting, only then do you now say yes, well actually I did shoot at them?

MR ZULU: As I mentioned before, I have been in prison for a long time, and my mind has been disturbed, so I may not remember everything.

MR LAX: Well you see, when I asked you why you didn't shoot at them, why didn't you say to me but I did actually shoot at them?

Instead, you gave me an elaborate explanation of why you hadn't shot at them which is different from not forgetting, do you understand?

MR ZULU: I think I made a mistake in that regard.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Zulu. Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman, the applicant calls Linda Heman Luthuli.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he is Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: He is seated in the audience Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Linda Luthuli. I think if he can sit where the applicant is and Mr Zulu if you can go and sit next to your attorney while he is giving evidence.

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Maharaj?

EXAMINATION BY MR MAHARAJ: Mr Luthuli, it is common cause that you were the, Mr Zulu, the applicant's co-accused in the High Court when you were convicted of murdering four people and attempting to murder another two, correct?

MR LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: And as a result of that incident, you were convicted and you received a term of imprisonment of 14 years?

MR LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR MAHARAJ: I would like you to tell the Committee that during or about, or I will be more specific, up until July 1992, where were you residing?

MR LUTHULI: I resided at Madada.

MR MAHARAJ: Were you up until that time, July 1992, were you always residing in Madada?

MR LUTHULI: No. I used to visit.

MR MAHARAJ: Did you belong to any political party during the time that you resided in Madada?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: What is the name of the political party?

MR LUTHULI: I was an IFP follower.

MR MAHARAJ: Did you take any active part in the day to day affairs of the Inkatha party?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: During 1992, can you tell the Committee please what active role did you play in the affairs of the IFP?

MR LUTHULI: I was an IFP supporter.

MR MAHARAJ: You told the Committee that you used to reside in an area called Madada, was Madada further broken down into specific areas or in any particular area that you used to reside in?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, it was divided.

MR MAHARAJ: What is the name of the area that you particularly resided in?

MR LUTHULI: At Bolushe, (indistinct)

MR MAHARAJ: And the people of Bolushe, were they predominantly, I wouldn't say predominantly, which members of any particular party resided specifically in Buloshe?

MR LUTHULI: Most of them were IFP members.

MR MAHARAJ: Is it not correct that the area known as Madada was divided by a road and on one side of the road was a place called Buloshe and on the other side of the road was a place called Ngonweni?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: The place called Ngonweni, was that place particularly or predominantly occupied by members of any particular political party?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: Which political party was that?

MR LUTHULI: It was the ANC.

MR MAHARAJ: Specifically during July/August 1992, can you tell the Committee what was the state of the political violence like in that area, with specific reference to the relationship to the IFP and the ANC?

MR LUTHULI: There was a lot of violence.

MR MAHARAJ: Did a certain set of circumstances, or were there certain activities by members of the ANC which caused you and the applicant of this matter, together with other co-perpetrators to attack the members of the ANC on the 3rd of February 1993?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, there is something.

MR MAHARAJ: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, it should be the 2nd of February 1993.

Can you please tell the Committee what is it that happened that caused you to attack this people?

MR LUTHULI: In July we were attacked by the ANC and they killed my father, as well as Mr Sithole and a certain boy from the Zulu family.

After that, we moved away from that area, and I buried my father at another area. After I buried my father, I went to the kwaMashu hostel in Durban.

In 1993 Zakhele, the IFP Youth Organiser, came to the kwamashu hostel and he was with Zita and Ndumiso. They told me that we would be travelling to Madada to Ngonweni specifically and they told me that they had been with Buxusa who was an IFP leader as well as an induna.

Zakhele told me that we were going to go to Ngonweni to attack the people there. We went there indeed, and we killed them when we arrived.

MR MAHARAJ: The people that you killed in Ngonweni, did you know any of those people? The people that you killed?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, there are that I knew.

MR MAHARAJ: How is it that you knew them, or how is it that you identified them as being persons that you wanted to kill?

MR LAX: Hang on a second, he didn't say that he wanted to kill them, he said he knew them. How did he know them?

MR MAHARAJ: I beg your pardon, I will rephrase that. Mr Luthuli, how is it that you knew these people?

MR LUTHULI: I did not know all of them.

MR MAHARAJ: Let us refer to them by the, as the people that died. Did you perhaps know any of the deceased?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: Which of the deceased did you know?

MR LUTHULI: The owner of the household, Mr Mthetwa.

MR MAHARAJ: Aside from Mr Mthetwa, did you know any of the others that were deceased?

MR LUTHULI: He is the only one that I knew.

MR MAHARAJ: Did you know any of the others that were injured in this attack?

MR LUTHULI: No.

MR LAX: How did you know Mthetwa?

MR LUTHULI: I knew him because his house was alongside the road, so on my way to the bus stop I would pass his home.

The bus stop is actually, his house is actually on the way to the bus stop.

MR LAX: Why did you go there to attack his house?

MR LUTHULI: That was because they had attacked the IFP.

MR LAX: Who is they?

MR LUTHULI: Mr Mthetwa and them.

MR LAX: And who else?

MR LUTHULI: I do not know the others because I did not see them.

MR LAX: So you didn't know whether anyone else there had attacked the IFP, as far as you were concerned, you only knew that Mthetwa had attacked the IFP?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, I knew Mthetwa.

MR LAX: No, no, I know that you knew Mthetwa. How did you know that he had attacked the IFP?

MR LUTHULI: I had been told by Zulu that we would actually find these people at his house.

MR LAX: Zulu told you that you would find the attackers, did he say the attackers of your father, did he say the attackers of the ANC on the IFP, what did he say?

MR LUTHULI: He had just referred to them as ANC people.

MR LAX: He just said the ANC people, he didn't say the people who had attacked your home, or the people who had attacked your area, he just said the ANC people?

MR LUTHULI: He just said that they were ANC people who we would have found at Mthetwa's house, as the instructions from Buxusa.

MR LAX: So you went there simply to attack ANC, as far as you were told by him?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MR LAX: You weren't going to attack people who had attacked your area as far as you knew, you were just going there because they were ANC and Buxusa as far as you knew, had said you must go and attack the ANC at that area?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, it was also to prevent their attacks, because they had actually attacked us many times before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you. As I understand your evidence Mr Luthuli, you were in the company of the applicant and you were in the company of two other persons, that is Zita Zulu and the other person. Can you please tell the Committee where were the deceased at the time that you arrived at Mthetwa's house?

MR LUTHULI: They were under a tree.

MR MAHARAJ: Did the deceased and the other two persons that you attempted to murder, where were they in relation to the tree?

MR LUTHULI: They were a group sitting around and they were just talking. They were a large group and they were just discussing something, although I did not hear what they were talking about.

MR MAHARAJ: Can you estimate approximately how many people were they within this group?

MR LUTHULI: Although I did not count them, there may have been about 20 or more, because they were quite a sizeable group.

MR MAHARAJ: Would you regard there as having been a person amongst the four of you, who was the leader of your group?

MR LUTHULI: There was one leader.

MR MAHARAJ: Who was that?

MR LUTHULI: The honourable Mr Zulu here, who was the Organiser of the Youth in the IFP.

MR MAHARAJ: How is it that you came to attack specifically these four persons that have died, and the two persons who you attempted to murder? Was the attack specifically levelled at these six people or was it an attack that was levelled generally at any members of this congregation of the IFP Unit that you attacked?

MR LUTHULI: We were attacking anybody, everyone there. Anybody could have gotten injured, but we were not attacking women.

MR MAHARAJ: So Mr Luthuli, are you saying that no specific instruction was given to you by Mr Zulu that you should attack these six people, because these six people were part and parcel of a group that attacked the IFP area on a certain date?

MR LUTHULI: No, he did not.

MR MAHARAJ: You told the Committee as well Mr Luthuli, that your father was killed by this group that belonged to the ANC?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: Was this attack that you were part of, levelled at the members of the ANC as a result of you wanting vengeance for the killing of your father or did it have any political, was there any political reason behind it?

MR LUTHULI: It was just trying to prevent a situation where they would launch further attacks on us.

MR MAHARAJ: Is there any particular reason Mr Luthuli, why you didn't disguise yourself at the time that you perpetrated this attack on the deceased and the victims in the Supreme Court trial?

MR LUTHULI: We did not disguise ourselves, because we were at war with them, because even when they attacked us, they would not disguise themselves.

MR MAHARAJ: Why is it that Maria Gcabashe's life was spared at the time that you attacked these people?

MR LUTHULI: I don't remember a woman being killed from either side.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Luthuli, in the event of your father having been killed by a fellow IFP member within your community, what action would have been appropriate to be taken by the people that belonged to the IFP in those circumstances?

MR LUTHULI: It would have been regarded as a mistake, but I don't think it would have been taken as an intentional killing. It would have been discussed.

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence of Mr Luthuli.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Maharaj. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman. Mr Luthuli, are you in prison right now?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Which prison?

MR LUTHULI: Westville prison.

MS THABETE: Is it the same prison where Mr Zulu is?

MR LUTHULI: No. I don't know where Mr Zulu is.

MS THABETE: Why didn't you apply for amnesty?

MR LUTHULI: I did not get the opportunity, I cannot even write, I am illiterate.

MS THABETE: Would it not be correct to say that you did not apply for amnesty because you knew that the act that you had committed, was not political?

MR LUTHULI: No, that is not so.

MS THABETE: So you are saying that you did not apply because you did not know that you had to apply? Is that what you are saying?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, and I cannot even read or write.

MS THABETE: I don't know whether I heard you correct - yes, you see Mr Luthuli, there are many people like you who can't write, but the prison officials could have assisted you, should you have told them that you wanted to apply.

Let's go on, let's proceed. I don't know whether I heard you correctly in your evidence, did you say that Zakhele told you to go and kill at Mthetwa's place?

MR LUTHULI: Zakhele actually found me at the kwaMashu hostel.

MS THABETE: What I am asking is, did you say Zakhele told you to go and kill Mr Mthetwa?

MR LUTHULI: He came to me with what he had been told by Buxusa.

MS THABETE: When you came to Mthetwa's place, how many people were there?

CHAIRPERSON: In which group? At Mthetwa's place or in his group?

MS THABETE: At Mthetwa's place?

MR LUTHULI: I think about 20.

MS THABETE: In your own words, why did you kill the deceased?

MR LUTHULI: We killed them because they usually launched attacks against the IFP.

MS THABETE: Do you know anything about the gang that called themselves Sinamandla?

MR LUTHULI: No, I do not.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Any re-examination Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: No re-examination Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Mr Chairperson. Mr Luthuli, did you before Buxusa said you must go to Mthetwa and attack, did you know who killed your father?

MR LUTHULI: Buxusa did not talk to me directly. I received a report from the honourable Mr Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, after your father had been killed, did you know who was responsible for the death of your father, who killed your father?

MR LUTHULI: No. I just heard that it was people from Ngonweni. That is all I heard.

MR SIBANYONI: You heard from whom?

MR LUTHULI: When I arrived, my father was already dead and my brother told me this. He is the one who explained to me that it was people from Ngonweni who had actually attacked my father.

MR SIBANYONI: You repeatedly referred to the applicant as the honourable Mr Zulu. Why do you call him honourable?

MR LUTHULI: Because he was the IFP Youth Organiser, he was my superior and I respected him together with Mr Buxusa.

MR SIBANYONI: But he was only 17 years old in 1993, when this incident happened, is that so?

MR LUTHULI: It is possible, but he is very eloquent, he is able to talk to the people.

MR SIBANYONI: The evidence at the trial was that there were only six men at Mthetwa's house when you people arrived, and not 20, around 20 as you are estimating. What do you say about that?

MR LUTHULI: That is a mistake. It is something that they would say because we are always at opposing ends.

MR SIBANYONI: Why so few people in other words, were killed and injured, why was it not possible to injure or kill more than the number which was killed?

MR LUTHULI: It is not common that you are able to kill a lot of people and whoever dies, it may be fate that that is indeed the day on which he is supposed to die, because some of them managed to flee.

MR SIBANYONI: But you would have injured more than the number, the two people that you injured, am i correct?

MR LUTHULI: It was not easy, because they were already outside. If maybe they had been inside the house, maybe we could have killed more, but because they were already outside on the yard, it was difficult.

MR SIBANYONI: I see you are turning your head away from the panel, is there a reason for doing that?

MR LUTHULI: I just want to hear properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Luthuli, take this and put it next, put this thing next to the microphone. Take this device and put it there. Maybe that will help.

MR LAX: Can you hear us properly now?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, I can hear.

MR SIBANYONI: You said the attack you launched, was to prevent the other side from launching another attack. Did I understand you properly?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: But why did you wait for six months before trying to prevent further attacks?

MR LUTHULI: They were heavily armed and they were very dangerous people. That is why it took us a while, so that in the meantime they would just forget about us.

MR SIBANYONI: The information which was gathered by the TRC Investigating Group, is that there was no political conflict in the area, no political structures, but what predominantly was existing there, was that you belonged to a group called Sinamandla, which was terrorising the area. What do you say about that?

MR LUTHULI: That is a mistake, I have no knowledge of that.

I am not convicted for harassing people in the area.

MR SIBANYONI: If relatives of the victims come here and say there were only six men sitting under a tree, drinking beer when you attacked them, what would you say to that?

MR LUTHULI: I would deny that.

MR SIBANYONI: If they say they know that you in fact belonged to that group called Sinamandla, what would you say about that?

MR LUTHULI: That would be a mistake, I do not know that gang. That was my nickname.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you. Do you remember one Shosi boy that was killed in your area?

MR LUTHULI: I don't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: The name was Xude Shosi.

MR LUTHULI: I don't remember. Was he killed in our area?

CHAIRPERSON: Apparently so.

MR LUTHULI: I think it is a mistake.

MR LAX: I see, because of what affiliation was your father?

MR LUTHULI: He was a follower of the IFP.

MR LAX: The investigations done byu the TRC Investigation Unit, indicate that your father was killed as a result of a revenge for the killing of the Shosi boy, but you don't know anything of it?

MR LUTHULI: I think that is a mistake.

MR LAX: Do you know induna Shangase?

MR LUTHULI: No, I don't know.

MR LAX: You don't know him at all?

MR LUTHULI: Not at all.

MR LAX: Why if you had been living at kwaMashu hostel for at least six months, did you find it necessary to go back and attack this area?

You had nothing to do with the area for six months, why go back there?

MR LUTHULI: I was a hostel dweller and I will always look around for temporary jobs. When I left Buloshe, I went to Ndwedwe.

I resided in kwaMashu due to looking for temporary jobs, but I originally came from Nkosi Ndwedwe.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question Mr Lax put to you was, why if you were at kwaMashu, did you find it necessary to go back to Madada and attack the people at Ngonweni?

MR LUTHULI: There was a need that necessitated us to attack.

MR LAX: That was the order from Buxusa?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, though it was relayed to me by Zulu.

MR LAX: Yes. So if he hadn't given an instruction, you wouldn't have gone back there to attack?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, I wouldn't have gone to attack. I was living at Lindelani. If he did not come to me, they wouldn't have found me.

MR LAX: But you weren't in Lindelani, you were at kwaMashu in the mens' hostel?

MR LUTHULI: That is so.

MR LAX: Or maybe you were at Lindelani and not at kwaMashu? Which is it?

MR LUTHULI: I was in kwaMashu hostel.

MR LAX: I see, that was just a mistake? What authority did Buxusa have over Ndwedwe, he was at Lindelani. Why should he have any authority in Madada?

MR LUTHULI: I know him to be residing in Madada as an induna, and a leader as well of the IFP.

MR LAX: So was he also exiled from the area?

MR LUTHULI: Please repeat your question.

MR LAX: Was he also exiled from the area?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, he was residing as well in Buloshe.

MR LAX: When did he leave Bolushe?

MR LUTHULI: Do you mean when he left, when did he leave Bolushe?

MR LAX: Yes?

MR LUTHULI: He never left Bolushe, Buxusa.

MR LAX: I understood he was living at Lindelani?

MR LUTHULI: I don't remember him residing at Lindelani.

MR LAX: I see.

MR LUTHULI: I remember him to be residing in Madada.

MR LAX: I see, so at the time of this attack and at the time of the previous attack on your father, he was living at Madada?

MR LUTHULI: Yes, in Madada.

MR LAX: And what was his position in the IFP in Madada?

MR LUTHULI: I know him as a leader of the IFP.

MR LAX: Was he the Chairperson of the branch, was he - what position did he hold?

MR LUTHULI: In as far as the rank, the official ranks of the IFP, I wouldn't know but what I know is that he was a leader and induna as well of IFP.

MR LAX: You said you were a supporter, active supporter of the IFP.

MR LUTHULI: Yes, I was a follower, an active follower of the IFP.

MR LAX: What branch were you a follower of? Were you a member of any branch?

MR LUTHULI: No. There was no branch that I was affiliated with, I was only a follower of the IFP.

MR LAX: Was there a branch in your area at Buloshe?

MR LUTHULI: You see, this whole thing about the branches and so on, I do not have knowledge about that. It is sort of confusing to me, I only know that Buloshe induna was Mr Mbonambi.

MR LAX: On what basis do you say you were an active IFP supporter, you weren't involved in any branch activities? What meetings did you go to of the IFP that says you were an active member?

What structures did you attend of the IFP that says you were an IFP member?

MR LUTHULI: I was only a supporter of the IFP.

MR LAX: Yes, but how could you be an active supporter, if you didn't attend meetings or belonged to any structure or maybe you were an active fighter for the IFP?

MR LUTHULI: No, that is not true, that is a mistake.

MR LAX: Then explain to us, how you could be active if you weren't part of any structure or didn't do anything, you can't tell us what you did in order to be active?

MR LUTHULI: I was residing in the IFP area as a civilian there, not necessary that I held a position in the IFP structures.

MR LAX: Yes, but how were you active?

MR LUTHULI: When we travelled or we go to discuss certain matters, I would be found there. But with regards to positions, no, I did not hold any position.

MR LAX: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When the attack took place at the Mthetwa establishment, were any shots fired?

MR LUTHULI: Whether there were shots that were fired, are you referring to the attack in Ngonweni?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am referring to the attack at Mthetwa's house, the one that you went together with the applicant and two other people, and the one which you are sitting in prison for at the moment, were shots fired?

MR LUTHULI: I did hear sound of a gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you yourself, shoot?

MR LUTHULI: No, I did not shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see anybody shooting?

MR LUTHULI: No, I did not see anybody. But I did hear the sound of a shot.

CHAIRPERSON: One shot?

MR LUTHULI: I think it was once.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think it was shots that you were being shot at, or do you think that shot came from one of the people in your group?

MR LUTHULI: It could have been us shooting, or one of us shooting, but at the same time, I don't want to dispute the fact that it could have been from, emanating from the other side.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a firearm?

MR LUTHULI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you use it?

MR LUTHULI: I did not see any need to use the firearm, especially that in rural areas, we don't effectively use firearms, but we rely strongly upon traditional medicines.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions arising Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: I have no questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Luthuli, that concludes your evidence.

MR MAHARAJ: That was the case for the applicant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, I am going to lead two witnesses, and I would plead with the Committee members, to proceed until we are finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we could take a five minute adjournment, just to allow the Interpreter to have a little break, or do you think it is necessary, unless she thinks it is not necessary? Okay, we can proceed then.

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, I would like to call Mr Shangase please.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Luthuli, you can stand down, and go back to your seat please. Mr Shangase? Mr Shangase, what is your full names please?

MR SHANGASE: Konakwakhe Elliot Shangase.

MR LAX: Just spell that for us please.

MR SHANGASE: Konakwakhe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabete?

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Mr Shangase, how old are you?

MR SHANGASE: I am 42 years old.

MS THABETE: Are you working?

MR SHANGASE: No.

MS THABETE: Where do you stay?

MR SHANGASE: In the area of Ndwedwe, under Chief Cele.

MS THABETE: Is this the place where the deceased were attacked at Mthetwa's house?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, that is the area I am coming from.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Ngonweni?

MR SHANGASE: That is correct, Ngonweni is a river. This is why I am referring to it as under Chief Cele, but Ngonweni is the name of the river.

MS THABETE: Would you say this was an ANC area?

MR SHANGASE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: We are talking now about 1992/1993.

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I am also referring to then. There never was an organisation from that area, from the beginning of the area, to where the area ends, the whole area belonged to the Chief, to the king, there never was anything known as an organisation, a political organisation so to say.

MS THABETE: Where there any political conflict between any political groups in the area?

MR SHANGASE: With regards to politics, there never was any struggle or conflict.

MS THABETE: Can you tell the committee members, do you know the applicant, Mr Zulu?

MR SHANGASE: I know him very well. He is Zakhele Zulu.

MS THABETE: Where do you know him from?

MR SHANGASE: I know him from his house, from his place.

MS THABETE: In 1993, where was he residing?

MR SHANGASE: Let me go back. I don't remember the year in which he left, but he left after there was conflict that transpired between us and them, due to the criminal acts that they would launch at all times.

MR LAX: Mr Shangase, if you can just move the microphone. Move that thing, not that thing, the microphone, move that forward a little bit towards me, yes. That is fine. You can carry on talking now.

MS THABETE: Mr Shangase, I will lead you to that, I just wanted to know where was he residing at Madada during 1993?

MR SHANGASE: At Bolushe, under king Khumalo.

MS THABETE: How far apart is Chief Cele and Chief Khumalo, where he was residing?

MR SHANGASE: There was a border between, there was a border and next to the road there was a church, and Mthetwa's house and Dlamini's house and then beyond that, there would be Mlula's house and Mteyani's house the other side of the road. Not necessarily that the area was demarcated by the road.

MS THABETE: Can you give a ground information and tell the Committee members the circumstances which led to the attack at the Mthetwa place?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MS THABETE: Please do so.

MR SHANGASE: It started early in 1992. There were people who have been harassing and torturing the area of Khumalo where they were living. They started getting out now of the area of Khumalo, infiltrating other areas now after they were done with Khumalo area.

We resisted that and we did not want to accept that, at no standard, that they should come all the way to attack and harass and torture us. They were criminals, known as criminals.

They would rape school children, they were breaking houses. When you asked them to go and kill a person, that was nothing. It was a very easy task for them to kill once you asked them.

When they were coming now towards our area, we felt we should resist. We had a meeting, discussing this matter. The first meeting, Mr Luthuli was present.

MS THABETE: Are you referring to Mr Luthuli's father?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I am referring to him. The first meeting, he was present, Mr Luthuli that is, where we were discussing this matter that they should stop this because this will bring some enmity between us and amongst the residents of the area.

The second meeting and the third meeting, the third one unfortunately I was not in attendance, but my brother was there. But the second one I was present. We were discussing these matters of evil matters that they were conducting in the area.

We felt this was getting out of hand, but they did not take notice of that. When we were discussing in these meetings, we will have elderly folks coming to attend, not them. They were not disciplined children, these ones, you could not tell them what to do.

They would render the area ungovernable.

MS THABETE: Who is Linda?

MR SHANGASE: This Linda came to the meeting, to the second meeting. He came in and stood up, exhibiting signs of not being obedient. He will not even listen to our requests to try to get him seated.

He was busy using his handkerchief, blowing his handkerchief around the face, he was feared. The elderly people from his area could not address him in any way. The third meeting, I was not present, but then I did hear as to what happened, and issues that were discussed.

Again, even at that meeting, they did not bother about the gist of the meeting.

MR LAX: Sorry, who is the they that did not bother?

MR SHANGASE: I am referring to Zakhele and Linda. They were a known gang, known as Sinamandla. Linda would carry a big stick and walk around with it.

At any time when they would want to rape a girl, one would scream and say Sinamandla, then we would know that is a signal that they are about to do something, that they are up to mischief. Even this one, who is sitting right in front of the Commission, he would get the girls to call him Mageba, as a Chief. He was feared, very much so, in his area.

What I am trying to bring to your attention is that that was the beginning of all this. Then on the 26th, it was around the 26th of December, we were celebrating and the mood was jubilant since it was Christmas time. They came in and they said to the reverend, the reverend was making noise and they assaulted the reverend thereafter.

We never experienced that mood again, because they stopped it.

MS THABETE: Just slow down so that we can listen to the translation as well. Please proceed.

MR SHANGASE: What started this violence, was when they found Mtembu's son at a bus stop and they asked him if he was a man or what, but even though he is a man, he is not a man who was fit to fight them, harassing the young man there and they started torturing him and he ran away.

He went to his peers and told and related to the peers what happened, that he was tortured and harassed. Then the boys did not report the matter any further, subsequent to what they were told by this young man.

They went back to the road that they are referring to, these ones. That was the start of the fight, they kept fighting all the way up towards our area. That is when and where Xude got shot, Shosi. As Linda is repudiating this, Linda's brother, he is the one who shot that boy.

They fled, our boys that is. They went to report to the induna that they have already launched an attack and they were missing one of their members, Xude that is. It was late in the afternoon.

The following morning, it was on Monday, we went out in search of Xude and we discovered him dead. He was taken to Inanda police station, (indistinct). We went to report the matter and the police came to fetch the corps.

We therefore went to search the attackers and as he is referring to six, it was not around six, it was around four. August, I am not too sure, but at about past four, it was still during the day.

What he explained ...

CHAIRPERSON: When you say four, do you mean in the morning or in the afternoon?

MR SHANGASE: In the morning. Four in the morning. When they entered, when our people entered, Linda was by the door. He is the one who told the people inside the house that things are bad, and people fled.

He fled with (indistinct) Mkonzene. I am not too sure about the ladies, because we did not take notice of them. Linda's father was the last one to get out.

As he was approaching the gate, and they were running after him, (indistinct) Mkonzene, I don't know other ladies, unfortunately they got hold of this old man and they killed him.

After they killed him, Sithole approached us and he was at Luthuli's premises when they came. They found him there, and he was also shot. They went back.

CHAIRPERSON: We heard that also a young boy from the family Zulu, was killed. Do you know anything about that?

MR SHANGASE: Yes. When they were going back, we knew that we had already revenged. I will count myself as having been there, although I was not in person there, but we were about the same group.

When we were coming back from the other side, we went to report the matter to the induna that we have already committed this act, and that we have already killed people in Bolushe.

Linda was discovered by the school children. The school kids saw Linda crying, not that he was not there, he was not present. He is telling a blatant lie if he says he was not present.

There was the struggle now of one group running after the other, killing and the other one revenging. Now, that was the situation that prevailed. But they were known as the gang called Sinamandla, not anything political.

We were trying to defend ourselves or our area. There was a girl who got pregnant as a result of being raped by this gang.

MS THABETE: Slow down.

MR SHANGASE: They are lying to an extent that I cannot speak slower than this.

MS THABETE: Please try to speak slower. Can you repeat your last sentence, about the lamp.

MR SHANGASE: When they say and claim that they were a political group, they are lying through their teeth. There are kids from our area, girls, or they are fathering kids there in our area as a result of them raping the girls.

They once got to a certain house, by my house, and raped a child there and gave the mother of the child, a lamp that she must see this whole act that is going on. If she did not want to hold a lamp in her hands, and see fully the act of rape, how it is conducted, then they would assault her.

The poor lady had to hold a lamp in her hand and witness the rape of her child. As time went on and matured, the whole thing kept intensifying. There were people who suddenly were destitute, they did not have straight places where they were residing in. It so happened that one day after about two months to three months, they stopped buses which had in them, abroad, school children. I am talking about Madada Mission, where there are a number of schools found.

There were school children who were coming back and once they identified them, they screamed beyond their voices and some fled to report to us, then we had to arm ourselves and we rushed to the scene and we discovered that they had let go of the buses and they said they were looking for Fu Moilase and they did not find him.

MS THABETE: Sorry Mr Shangase, can you just wrap up and get to how the place of Mthetwa was attacked? I think you have given us the background of what they were doing. Can you tell us how it came about that the area of Mthetwa was attacked by them?

MR SHANGASE: I wanted to touch slightly about the Zulu.

MS THABETE: You can proceed.

MR SHANGASE: When we found them there, we went behind the butcher store and now they were fighting about gaining entry into the butchery to see if there were people from Ngonweni. He was present at that incident, this one.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean the applicant?

MR SHANGASE: I am referring to him, yes, I am referring to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Please refer to him as the applicant.

MR SHANGASE: I beg your pardon. When this Mr Zulu who is applying for amnesty, was there. When we approached, they saw us. They said things are bad, because they saw us now.

That is when they started to shoot and we shot back at them and they fled. This one took his right hand, exiting from the butchery, towards the east and we followed the other one, that he says was also killed during the time when Luthuli was killed. That is Thulani Zulu, he is the person that died on that day.

These are different days and incidents, but now they want the Commission to think it is one thing, one incident.

Now let me take a different turn altogether and refer to the next incident. It was February in 1993, around the 3rd. Around one or two in the afternoon, because one of these elderly folks, or old men, was just coming from me with his livestock, to leave the livestock, not too far away from my house.

At about quarter past one, after he had left, around ten past two, Mrs (indistinct) came to tell us that the people are being finished and told us that there are people who have already died, like Hlatswayo. Mthetwa for instance, we will never see him, he has died.

One other, we are not too sure if he has also died, that was at the time, she wasn't sure. Indeed, we left the two of us, myself and my brother, Ngiba or my friend Ngiba. We went to the scene and we found them laying down there, dead.

These ones were nowhere to be seen. We were told the story that Zakhele, Linda, Siabonga, Zita came and when we looked at the corpses that were laying down, we reported the incident to the police, that they should come and fetch the corpses.

These boys arrived there and found these four old men drinking. If I were to tell you about their spouses, you will perfectly understand my story, because they are present here.

It is not true what they said that they were political organisations, that there was this political violence going on in the area, it is not true. This Dadada, if I were to show you his grandchild, you will see how old the grandchild is, and he had an arm which was folded like that, he was disabled physically.

He was physically disabled, he was not even drinking liquor. He was only there in the company of the others. It was not a meeting as they claim. People who survived that incident, are there, are present right here.

MS THABETE: Is it possible Mr Shangase that the old men who were attacked, could have participated in the attack earlier on?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the attack on Luthuli?

MR SHANGASE: No, they never. They never, they never attacked. Not at all.

They were people who were not capable of such acts of violence at the same time, due to them being old and disabled, some of them physically. As I have already said that their spouses are present here and if I were to ask them to stand up, you will be very surprised to see how old they are.

MS THABETE: Mr Shangase, are you now an induna of kwaCele area?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I am an induna of men.

MS THABETE: The applicant is applying for amnesty, what is your response to that?

MR SHANGASE: I am opposing his application.

MS THABETE: On what basis briefly?

MR SHANGASE: He has tortured severely in the area. If he were to be discharged or get out of prison, people will be traumatised very much by his presence in the area.

When they see him, they get traumatised because of the atrocities that he committed in the area. He is known as a person who has been perpetrating evil and criminal acts.

MS THABETE: Can you repeat from the fact that - can you take it from there?

MR SHANGASE: They are telling blatant lies if he says he was a Youth Organiser, that is not true, he is lying through his teeth. We are very close to Bolushe, we should or could have known about them, if they were indeed IFP members. There was no IFP group or organisation.

They are trying to twist this and distort this information, from what they were known, because they were known as Sinamandla gangster. That is all there is to that.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Shangase, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Chairperson, may I take a short instruction from the applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will have a brief adjournment, and then if you can let us know as soon as you are available. We are ready to start.

MR MAHARAJ: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ON RESUMPTION:

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Maharaj?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Shangase, during 1992, were you residing within this area, the Madada area?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please repeat your answer because the light wasn't on.

MR SHANGASE: I resided in Cele's area which is next to Madada, but the two areas are close together.

MR MAHARAJ: Are you saying Mr Shangase that there was never an area which was clearly demarcated as being the Bolushe area and the Ngonweni area within Madada?

MR SHANGASE: It is not a road that demarcates the areas. There is a border, the border is actually next to the road.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was Mr Shangase, is there an area known as the Bolushe area and is there an area known as the Ngonweni area?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, there areas known as such.

MR MAHARAJ: Is it not correct as well Mr Shangase, that the are known as the Bolushe area and the area known as the Ngonweni area, had persons which occupied these two different areas, which were persons who belonged to two completely different political groups?

MR SHANGASE: There were not political members, there were not members of political organisations, but they resided or they were under different Chiefs.

MR MAHARAJ: During the course of 1992, Mr Shangase, did it not come to your attention that there was conflict, not necessarily political conflict, but there was conflict between the persons that occupied the Bolushe area and the persons that occupied the Ngonweni area?

MR SHANGASE: That conflict was initiated by the members of Sinamandla gang, when they actually started harassing our community.

MS THABETE: Let me intervene at this stage, I think the witness did say there was conflict in the area in his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Maharaj is asking is whether in general, the people of Bolushe were in conflict with, in general, the people of Ngonweni. What Mr Shangase said is that a gang came from across Bolushe, and this caused the trouble and he has told us the whole story about the retaliation, the attack on the Luthuli house, but did that trouble that was started by the gang, did it result in the people of Bolushe being against in general, the people in general of the whole, the whole population of Bolushe being against the people of Ngonweni and vice versa, did it cause a distinct split between the people in the different areas?

MS THABETE: I am indebted Mr Chairman.

MR SHANGASE: Yes. Ever since their arrest and conviction, things have been quiet because there is no longer that conflict, because there was no reason from the beginning, why we had to fight with the people from Khumalo's area.

As we are sitting here, they were actually pointing at us and passing remarks about us. I think that they may actually have something still in their hearts, therefore if these people are released or acquitted, trouble may flare up again.

CHAIRPERSON: You have answered the question. Mr Maharaj.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, I have taken instructions from the applicant, Mr Zulu, in this matter. He denies that he was ever responsible for any of the events that you referred to in your evidence in chief.

For example you have indicated to the Committee that he was a member of a gang. Mr Zulu denies ever being a member of a gang.

MR SHANGASE: He should do this because he is applying for amnesty. He is in prison, his sentence is very long.

MR MAHARAJ: He also denies ever individually, or ever being a part of a gang that raped any girls, any school children or any girls. What do you have to say about that?

MR SHANGASE: That is not true. He knows what I am talking about.

MR MAHARAJ: He also advises me that he was never part of a gang that broke into people's houses, nor did he ever commit any assaults on any persons.

MR LAX: What is your comment on that?

MR SHANGASE: When this boy whom he referred to as his relative, was killed, he was present. He is not telling the truth. He is just trying to get himself acquitted.

I think it is because of the medicine that he mentioned or referred to earlier on.

MR MAHARAJ: He also advises me that Linda was never a person whom you described as being a person who was disobedient and unruly?

MR SHANGASE: Linda was a most violent person. He did not have a conscience at all. He could do just about anything.

MR MAHARAJ: Even though Mr Shangase, you referred to the 26th of December as being a day when people were praying and having a party when the reverend was assaulted, Mr Zulu, the applicant in this matter, instructs me that he was never a part of any group that assaulted the reverend?

MR SHANGASE: That is not true. He knows very well what happened there.

MR MAHARAJ: In fact Mr Zulu instructs me that he never at any time, noticed you being present on that evening in question, or the day in question.

MR SHANGASE: He is just manoeuvring to protect himself because I know the beginning and the end of this matter.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, what is amazing about this particular aspect of your evidence, is that Mr Zulu instructs me that on that particular occasion that you referred to, on the 26th of December, Mr Zulu himself was part of the group, part of the choir group that was singing at this function.

MR SHANGASE: That is also not true. He cannot be associated with anything good because he is incapable of doing good.

MR MAHARAJ: He also denies having ever interfered or intimidated Mtembu's son. What do you say about that?

MR SHANGASE: I am referring to the way which he looked, the way that the Mtembu boy was assaulted, and he mentioned who actually assaulted him.

MR MAHARAJ: Where is the Mtembu boy today?

MR SHANGASE: He stays in the Inanda area, although I am not sure exactly where. He sometimes visits, once a month or so.

MR MAHARAJ: You mentioned as well to the Committee that there were persons who had stopped the buses with a view to interfering with persons that were occupants of the bus.

Mr Zulu denies having ever been part of those persons that stopped those buses.

MR SHANGASE: He started by lying from the very beginning when he said he was under an organisation by the name of IFP. He is still maintaining those lies. He is an animal.

MR MAHARAJ: You referred Mr Shangase to an incident where you went behind or to the side of a butcher shop, where Mr Zulu was hiding. Mr Zulu admits having been there, but he denies having ever shot at you or any other person.

MR SHANGASE: I am talking about something that happened in my presence. I am not exactly making presumptions or assumptions.

This happened and as I explained before the events that took place on that day.

MR MAHARAJ: In fact, it was on that particular day that Thulani Zulu was shot and killed by people whom he alleges to be members of the ANC.

MR SHANGASE: As I explained before, he connects the death of those old men with the death of his relative. Those are very separate incidents and they happened at different areas.

His relative died at Gangala and in the district of Macadeni under Chief Nqopo.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, you also mentioned in your evidence as well that there was an occasion where a poor lady had to witness her little child being raped. Do you know the name of the lady?

CHAIRPERSON: The one who had to hold the lamp?

MR SHANGASE: I know the surname, but I am not sure of her first name.

MR LAX: Mr Maharaj, is it really necessary to mention it? Can you imagine the potential harm to this child and the rest of it? I am just wondering if it is necessary?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it denied by your client?

MR MAHARAJ: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: If I can just put it this way, does your client deny that any such event ever happened in the area, or does he just deny that he was present there?

MR MAHARAJ: In fact, my apologies, I ought to have posed the question prior to this one, to this witness. May I please pose that question?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, did it come to your knowledge that in fact the applicant in this matter, was part of the persons that had raped the child whilst the mother had to hold the lamp?

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that.

MR MAHARAJ: Did it come to your knowledge that the applicant in this matter, was one of those persons that had raped the child whilst the mother of the child had to hold the lamp and watch her child being raped?

MR SHANGASE: This is what they did. It was their work, they would do this together. They were always together when they did these activities.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did it come to your knowledge that the applicant was one of the persons who was present or who actually raped the child while the mother was made to stand by and hold the lamp?

MR SHANGASE: His name was mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all that Mr Maharaj wanted to know.

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you. Mr Shangase, without mentioning the name of the, the first name or the surname of the lady, would the lady be available to give evidence to that effect before this Committee here on that aspect?

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, I was going to say I think it is unfair for my learned friend to ask an opinion whether she could come and give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but it is also unfair for a witness to give hearsay evidence in implicating an applicant. You see, what I am saying is, his evidence is merely hearsay about that and now all he is asking is, is the woman who was told to stand by a lamp, would she be available as a witness.

I don't see how unfair that is?

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, with due respect, I think it is unfair because he can't be in a position to know whether the woman would be available.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's ask it again, is that woman still alive and is she still residing in the area?

MS THABETE: That is a fair question Mr Chairman.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: I put it to you Mr Shangase, that in fact the applicant has been truthful in his application, in advising this Committee that he belonged to the IFP and that the killings which took place on the 2nd of February 1993, the killings that were done by him and the others that were mentioned in his evidence, with a political motive, and was not necessarily directed upon the victims or the deceased as a personal revenge.

MR SHANGASE: It had no political motive, as I mentioned before. If that is so, he should produce his membership cards and there should be proof to ascertain that indeed he was an Organiser and a member of the IFP.

They were not members of either the ANC or the IFP.

MR MAHARAJ: I put it to you as well that the acts which were committed on the 2nd of February 1993, were acts that were committed in furtherance of the aims of the IFP and in retaliation for the acts of, for the unlawful acts that were committed by the ANC upon the people of the IFP. What is your comment on that?

MR SHANGASE: That is not true. I am referring to aged, elderly males here. How could these people have defended themselves in an attack?

These were old, old men, they could not have done anything to defend themselves in the attack.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, I canvassed that point in particular with the applicant as well during the short recess, and the applicant advises me whilst he is not in the position to indicate to the Committee with any reasonable certainty as to what the ages of the deceased were, he can comfortably say that all the persons that were killed and the persons that were injured in the attack, were persons who were able bodied men, who were middle aged.

MR SHANGASE: I have evidence of what I am saying. I am speaking of something that I know. As I mentioned before, if you could ask their grandchildren to stand up here, you will realise that they are about the same age as the applicant.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, are you affiliated to any particular political party?

MR SHANGASE: No. I have never been a member of any political party.

MR MAHARAJ: You have never, throughout 1992 or 1993, ever been a member of any political party?

MR SHANGASE: No. That is actually the rule in the area, the Chief and the induna are not members of political parties.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, according to a document that has been handed to me, it will be apparent that an Investigator was appointed by the Commission to investigate this matter, this amnesty application.

Did he perhaps have cause to speak with you at any time?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR MAHARAJ: Did you mention to the Investigator all the matters that you gave evidence about today before this hearing?

MR SHANGASE: Although I did not mention everything that I spoke about today, because he mentioned that he did not have enough time and he was also not comfortable in the area.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, let met put it to you that you are making every attempt to oppose the applicant's application for amnesty for reasons best known to you.

MR SHANGASE: I do not hate Mr Zulu. His mother comes from our area, but he has brought this upon himself because of his actions.

We regard him as a son because of his mother's situation, why would I hate him?

MR MAHARAJ: I put it to you that almost all of the evidence that you have given against the applicant in this matter, is false.

MR SHANGASE: I would not comment, but I only spoke on what I know.

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Maharaj. Ms Thabete, do you have any re-examination?

MS THABETE: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shangase, do you know a Mr Buxusa Mbonambi?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he belonged to a political party during that period when the attack took place at the Mthetwa's premises?

MR SHANGASE: He was an induna under the Chief, that was a long time ago and the political situation, there was no political activity at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to the evidence of the applicant that he was the leader, the local leader of the IFP in that Bolushe area?

MR SHANGASE: I do not agree with that because between these two areas, I have never seen, I have never witnessed any political activity. That is a small area, therefore I would know if something like that went on.

I do not know anything about what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shangase, we know that at that time, 1993, 1992, most of the people, even in rural areas, were very politically aware, they were aware of the political situation in the country, they were aware that political movements such as the ANC and the PAC had been unbanned, they were aware that there was prospects of political change about to take place in the land.

I think it was generally known. Were there not people in either the Bolushe area or the Ngonweni area that were politically aware and who may have belonged or supported a certain political party or movement?

MR SHANGASE: As far as I am aware, I do not know of any person who was affiliated to an organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard a number of applications for amnesty and we have also actually heard of political conflicts. I am not saying in the Buloshe or Ngonweni or Madada area, but we have heard of cases where there was political conflict, particularly between supporters of the IFP and supporters of the ANC, in the Ndwedwe district.

Are you aware of that?

MR SHANGASE: That is true. That was at the Macadeni district at the end of the river, Ngonweni river.

One person from the ANC actually fled to our area and we requested him to leave because we were not involved in politics. We did chase him out of the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any questions arising out of questions put by myself Mr Maharaj?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAHARAJ: Just one Mr Chairman. You say that there was a person that affiliated himself with the ANC, that came to your area and you mentioned that we had chased him out of the area.

When you say we, you are referring to yourself and whom else?

MR SHANGASE: I am referring to the fact that we as an area, could not affiliate or identify ourselves with a political organisation, and we could not tolerate being attacked by people from Macadeni just because of this person.

We told the induna and the Nkosi that this person should be chased out of the area, so that we do not find ourselves in trouble because of political reasons with which we had nothing to do.

MR LAX: Sorry, you still haven't answered the question, who is the we? Is it you and the community or is it you and a couple of other people?

MR SHANGASE: The people from the area, that is the people we discussed the matter with and reported to the induna and the Nkosi.

MR MAHARAJ: You cannot identify any of the persons whom you refer to as we, aside from yourself?

MR SHANGASE: We told the Nkosi and the induna and we also told the community that we should not involve ourselves in political matters, that this person should be chased out of our area.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, do you know Mr Mbaso, Mr Mbaso was one of the people that were killed, because according to the Investigator's report ...

MR SHANGASE: I did not know him when he was still alive. MR MAHARAJ: I beg your pardon, was Mr Mbaso, was he residing in the area that you were residing in, where the people were not affiliated to any political party?

MR SHANGASE: No, he came from the Macadeni area and he encountered these men sitting under the tree, and he decided to rest, sit with them, and unfortunately he happened to be killed on that day. He came from the Macadeni district.

MR MAHARAJ: Sorry, what is the name of the district, I beg your pardon?

MR SHANGASE: Macadeni.

MR MAHARAJ: The Macadeni district, was that a district which was predominantly ANC controlled?

MR SHANGASE: I do not really have knowledge with regards to that because that area is a bit of a distance from us.

I do not know how the situation is there.

MR MAHARAJ: Would it perhaps surprise you to learn that in fact the daughters of Mbaso claim that he was killed because he was an ANC member?

MR SHANGASE: I would not deny that if that is what his family members claim. With regards to where he was killed, he had just rested there on his way.

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Just two Mr Chairman. Mr Shangase, would I be correct if I say your area is a very small area, your community?

MR SHANGASE: It is small, it is divided into three wards only.

MS THABETE: Would I be correct as well to say before any decision is made in your community, you first report to the Chief and there is a discussion amongst the community before a decision is made?

MR SHANGASE: That is correct. We don't take any decisions without the induna or the Nkosi. We have to report to the Nkosi or induna if there is an emergency, then we report to the induna.

If he gives us authority, then we proceed with whatever we want to do. If not, then we wait for the Nkosi.

MS THABETE: Would it be correct to say you didn't make decisions, but you as a community together, you together with others, after the Chief had been reported, it is only then that you make decisions?

MR SHANGASE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Shangase, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down and go back to your seat, thank you.

MR SHANGASE: Thank you. Please ensure that they do not kill me when I leave this area please.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, I won't waste the Committee's time, but I would like to call my last witness. I will try to be as brief as possible.

I call on Mr Musawenkosi Cele to come to the stand please.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the names, if you could spell them please?

MS THABETE: He is one of the victims who was - Musawenkosi.

MR LAX: Can you hear us Mr Cele?

MR CELE: Yes.

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete.

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Mr Cele, on the 3rd of February 1993, you were seated at Mthetwa's house, is that correct?

MR CELE: Yes, we were.

MS THABETE: Is it also correct that you were attacked whilst you were sitting there?

MR CELE: That is correct. We were attacked.

MS THABETE: Can you briefly tell the Committee members what happened?

MR CELE: They arrived and some of them shook my hand and then the others started stabbing me at the back. One used a (indistinct) to stab me at the back and one other stabbed me on my chest.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, if I could just get - you say it was at Mthetwa's place, approximately how many men were at Mthetwa's place just immediately prior to the attack taking place?

MR CELE: Two arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the attack?

MR CELE: We were about ten.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what is your age?

MR CELE: I am 28.

MS THABETE: The ten people who were sitting there, was it old people, was it young people?

MR CELE: There were old and young people. I was the young one and the others were elderly.

MS THABETE: When you say they came to where you were sitting, who is they, do you know them?

MR CELE: Yes, I know the people who attacked us. They are the people who are actually present here today, seeking amnesty. Some of them were not arrested and their whereabouts are not known.

MS THABETE: Were you called aside by the people who came to attack you?

MR CELE: No, they just came to me and stood next to me and started attacking me.

When the first two shook my hand ...

MS THABETE: Slow down, so you are saying they didn't call you aside, they didn't speak to you, they just came and they attacked you?

MR LAX: No, that is not what they are saying.

MR CELE: They came to me, they shook my hand and then they started attacking me.

MS THABETE: Mr Cele, can you try and speak up because I am listening to you directly. Just try and speak up.

MR LAX: Maybe you can put the headphones on and put it on the other channel if you want to listen to the Zulu.

MS THABETE: I get interrupted because it is translated into English as well, at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: You can just do what you want to.

MS THABETE: Mr Zulu, was he wearing an IFP T-shirt, do you remember?

MR CELE: He had on a navy T-shirt which had white stripes. It looked like a soccer vest, he was not wearing a T-shirt.

MS THABETE: Were there any shots that were fired?

MR CELE: He was just wearing a navy T-shirt with white stripes. He is lying when he says he was wearing an IFP or an ANC T-shirt.

MS THABETE: Can you answer my next question.

MR LAX: I don't know if he heard it.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your question Ms Thabete.

MR LAX: You said to him did he hear any shots being fired?

MS THABETE: Can you answer?

MR CELE: I was attacked and then I fled and I heard gunshots when I had already fled.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Cele. No further questions from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Mr Maharaj, do you have any cross-examination?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAHARAJ: Thank you. Mr Cele, on that, can you tell the Committee at approximately what time did this attack take place?

MR CELE: I think it was about two o'clock in the afternoon.

MR MAHARAJ: How many persons had formed this gang that attacked you?

MR CELE: They were four.

MR MAHARAJ: Certainly not nine or ten?

MR LAX: Sorry, it has never been suggested that they were nine people that attacked them on that afternoon.

The issue about the nine deals with events prior to this particular incident. No one has ever suggested Mr Maharaj, that at this attack there was anyone else besides the four people that the applicant has named.

MR MAHARAJ: I beg your pardon, to my recollection, it would seem as if it was put to the applicant that in fact nine, he was part of nine people that had actually attacked the people that were seated at Mthetwa's house.

MR LAX: No, he said he was a gang of nine people that called themselves Sinamandla and it was in that context that the nine was mentioned.

MR MAHARAJ: My apologies, I withdraw that question.

Mr Cele, can you indicate to the Court the four people that were killed, can you indicate to the Committee approximately what were the ages of these people?

MR CELE: I would not be able to explain because I think some of them were in their 70's or just less. Those were the old people who could not run away and were therefore attacked.

MR MAHARAJ: Can you tell the Committee whether there were any persons out there, any of the deceased persons who had lost the use of either of their arms as a result of being aged or as a result of a deformity?

MR CELE: Yes, there was a person who had a bent arm and also his leg was deformed. He could not have run away.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Cele, do you belong to any political party? Let me rephrase that rather please, during the period 1992 when this incident occurred, did you belong to any political party?

MR CELE: No, I was not affiliated to any political organisation. I just experienced this attack and I did not know why I was being attacked.

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Cele, my instructions are that you in fact were one of the members or a member of this group that had attacked the IFP in the Gcabashe area, on a previous occasion. Can you perhaps comment on that?

MR CELE: I have never been part of any attack because I wasn't affiliated to any political organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when the people went to the house of Mr Luthuli and when Mr Luthuli and a certain Mr Sithole died?

MR CELE: I did not go there because I was not even at home when it occurred. I did not have any knowledge of this matter.

I think people were just killed for no apparent reason. The people who were alleged to have been responsible for that killing, actually fled and moved away from the area. These people just came and attacked us.

MR MAHARAJ: Were you perhaps present when Thulani Zulu was killed?

MR CELE: I was not present. I have no knowledge regarding the deaths of those people.

MR MAHARAJ: Of all the people that were killed at the time that you were attacked at Mthetwa's house, can you tell the Committee whether any of those persons including Mr Mthetwa, whether he belonged to either the ANC or the IFP as a political party?

MR CELE: They were not affiliated to any political organisation. There was no political activity in the area. They have just fabricated these lies, because they knew that the amnesty process was about political activities.

MR MAHARAJ: I put it to you Mr Cele that my instructions are specifically that you were a member of the ANC and that you were part of this group that attacked the people of the IFP area and that the attack upon yourselves was politically motivated by the applicant and the other persons that he mentioned in his evidence.

MR CELE: The attack on those people may have been, but I do not know because I was not affiliated to any organisation.

MR MAHARAJ: I put it to you as well that amongst other reasons, the reason why they had attacked you and the deceased and the other person that was injured, was because they wanted to prevent any further attacks upon the IFP as a political organisation.

MR CELE: I will say that the reference to the ANC or the IFP is just pure fabrication. There was no political activity. At one point Zulu, who is sitting directly in front of me, once threatened me with a steel pipe and I went to the Chief's house and I wanted to see if he would actually follow me to that Chief's house, and he did not.

That was even before there was any conflict. He was just threatening me, I don't know for what reason.

MR MAHARAJ: I put it to you Mr Cele, that had you personally had any experiences of the applicant's criminal activities, you would have given evidence about that in your evidence in chief.

MR LAX: Frankly, he wasn't led on that Mr Maharaj, so please, it is not fair to put that.

MR MAHARAJ: Thank you. I withdraw the question. I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination Ms Thabete?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman. Mr Cele, what were you doing at Mr Mthetwa's house?

MR CELE: I had gone there with my father, we had actually been dipping our cattle and he said we should go because people were drinking there. I was actually waiting for my father and that is when this happened. I was just waiting there for my father.

MS THABETE: When you were sitting there talking, did you talk politics, what were you talking about?

MR CELE: We were just talking and we were not aware that such people were going to come and attack us.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you talk about politics?

MR CELE: No, we were not discussing anything, we were just sitting.

MS THABETE: Did you take part or did you ever take part in any attacks that occurred in the area?

CHAIRPERSON: He already said he didn't.

MS THABETE: He said he didn't take part when the Luthuli house was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: You can ask it. It is the only attack we know, any way.

MS THABETE: I am just trying to establish his involvement, whether he was involved in any attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: You can ask the question.

MS THABETE: Were you involved in any attacks in the area?

MR CELE: No, I have never taken part in any attack.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Just two Mr Chairperson. According to the applicant, he was a member of the IFP, he was a Youth Organiser. What do you say about that?

MR CELE: He is just making this up because he wants to be released from prison. There is just no such.

MR SIBANYONI: According to him, they had information that a meeting, an ANC meeting will take place at Mthetwa's house. What do you say about that?

MR CELE: Yes, they would have come to that place, but it is only the four of them who actually eventually arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: The question Mr Cele was, the applicant has said as did Mr Luthuli, that the information given to them, the applicant, was that an ANC meeting was taking place at Mthetwa's premises. What do you say about that, was there an ANC meeting taking place at Mthetwa's premises?

MR CELE: There was never a meeting at Mthetwa's place, because Mthetwa was not affiliated to any political organisation.

There were people who were just there, you know, who were just on their way. Some of them were on their way and some were just sitting. He is lying.

MR SIBANYONI: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising from the questions put by Mr Sibanyoni?

MR MAHARAJ: No questions, Mr Chairman.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that concludes my evidence. Thank you Mr Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cele, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down and go back to your seat in the auditorium. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I see now it is very late. The question of submissions, would you prefer to hand in written submissions, or would you prefer to make submissions now Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Chairman, I would prefer to make written submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: If you want to make written submissions, you can.

MS THABETE: I would do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: When do you think you would be able to make your submissions by, Mr Maharaj?

MR MAHARAJ: Mr Chairman, is it necessary for the Committee to reconvene for those submissions to be made?

CHAIRPERSON: No, not at all. Not if they are written. We would just, you would just submit them and we would just make a decision on them.

MR MAHARAJ: If the Committee can perhaps allow me until Wednesday, next week, I will have them delivered if necessary, to wherever the Committee is going to be sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, we sit as a Committee here and then next week, we all split up and go our various ways. I think the best would be to arrange with Ms Thabete, where they could be sent to. It is probably best to get them through to the office in Pinetown, the TRC has its own offices in the Pinetown Magistrate's court, actually within the court premises.

MR LAX: Would that be convenient for you?

MR MAHARAJ: I understand that the Committee is going to be sitting in Pietermaritzburg next week?

CHAIRPERSON: There is a Committee, including Mr Lax will be one of the persons, I won't be there, nor will Mr Sibanyoni, but do you come from Pietermaritzburg?

MR MAHARAJ: No, I am from Durban, but I have a matter in Pietermaritzburg on Friday, next week.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that would be very convenient if you could perhaps hand in your written Heads to Mr Lax, who will be on that Committee, next week and he can arrange to bring it to Cape Town, when you come the next week, where we will be sitting.

MR LAX: I will be going on Monday to Cape Town, so I can give a copy. We will be sitting at the Marion Centre, in Loop Street. Do you know where that is? Do you know where my office is in Maritzburg at all?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maharaj, are you appearing before the Committee next week?

MR LAX: No, no. I will explain to you, do you know the bottom end of East Street, where East and Loop joins, if you just go up Loop Street, from East Street, it is a one way, heading up to the other direction, away from East Street in other words, on the left hand side, you will see Marion Centre, it is a little church centre.

From the intersection with East Street, it is about 200 metres, up Loop Street, on the left. We will be sitting in that Centre.

MR MAHARAJ: I will find it. In any event, the submissions would be handed to you before next week Friday, Friday the 18th, is it?

MR LAX: Yes, that is fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Maharaj, I am just suggesting, in case there is a complication or a difficulty, if you could just give Ms Thabete information or perhaps if you've got a card where she can communicate with you.

MR MAHARAJ: Very well Mr Chairman.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman and the Committee members. That concludes our role.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Thabete. We have now come to the end of this hearing. As you probably heard us talking now, seeing that it is very late, we have sat late, we have kept a number of staff overtime here, for which we apologise.

In the circumstances, and also because Mr Maharaj would require a bit of time to prepare his submissions, it has been agreed that he would be making written submissions to the Committee as will Ms Thabete and we therefore accordingly, reserve our decision in this matter, and we will hand down a written decision so soon after we received those written Heads of argument, as is possible.

This also brings our role to and end in this session of hearings, and before we adjourn, I would just very much like to thank all the people who made it possible for us to conduct these hearings. I would first of all like to thank the church for making this very nice and convenient venue available to us.

I would like to thank the Interpreters for the hard work they have done throughout the week, it is an extremely arduous task. I would like to thank the Sound Technician for everything that they have done, as well as the security people and the caterers who have fed us so nicely, not only at tea times, but at lunch times as well.

The media people, for being here the whole time. It is very important that what occurs in these meetings, be relayed to the public. I would like to thank them. Mr Maharaj, this you informed us was your first appearance in the amnesty process. Thank you very much for the assistance that you have given us.

Thank you Ms Thabete, it was also Ms Thabete's first experience as an Evidence Leader when she started with us last week, thank you very much indeed for all your assistance Ms Thabete.

If I have forgotten anybody, I can assure you it was not by design and again, I apologise to all the people who we have kept here late in order to finish today rather than having to come back tomorrow. Thank you very much indeed.

We will now adjourn.

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