AMNESTY HEARING

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, was the machine recording since we have started?

ADV STEENKAMP: Apparently not sir, there was no recording. Mr Chairman, there is a request from the technician, that the applicant, if he can just open his microphone again or just switch it on and say a few words, and see if that can be sorted out quickly.

MR NHLAPO: ...(no English interpretation)

ADV STEENKAMP: Apparently it has been sorted out Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will have to go through everything again.

ADV STEENKAMP: It unfortunately seems like it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapo, I am extremely sorry about the position but it seems that the recordings or the machine to record, was not switched on. We will have to do everything again. I am going to adjourn until this thing is sorted out.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapo, we will have to redo everything we had done, sorry about that. I understand you prefer to use the Zulu language when testifying?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NHLAPO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that you make application for amnesty in respect of murder, malicious injury to property and attempted murder?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And is it further correct that in 1993, you became a member of the Self Defence Unit in Radebe Section, Katlehong?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Under the command of ...(indistinct) Hlutwa?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, it was that Hlutwa.

CHAIRPERSON: And lastly I understand that you were a member of the ANC at that time?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you proceed?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nhlapo, the acts that you have applied for, occurred in which year?

MR NHLAPO: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Would you remember the specific dates?

MR NHLAPO: No, I wouldn't remember the specific date, but I do remember the year, it was in 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Right. Tell us about the incidents that you have applied for.

MR NHLAPO: The incident in which I am applying for amnesty, is the one where I shot Mr Nqobo and he died. The reason which led us to do this, there was a meeting on that day in our Section. Section Commanders and the community met to discuss about IFP members, those who were residing int he townships, IFP members who were residing within the townships.

A decision was taken there that I should go and look for Mr Nqobo at his place and if I do get hold of him, I was supposed to tel him to come to the meeting because he was needed in that meeting. The Commander gave me this instruction to go and look for Mr Nqobo.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Hlutwa?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Right, proceed.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get clarity, were you supposed to bring him to this particular meeting?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I was supposed to go and bring him to the very meeting.

When I arrived at his place, he wasn't there, he was still at work. I found his sons, they were in the kitchen. They said he wasn't back from work. I left, I went back to the Commanders to report.

When I told the Commanders, immediately after I told them, I saw them at the playing grounds, he was coming from work, and therefore I ran back to the meeting, I told the Commanders that I had seen him and he was going to his place, he is coming from work. My Commander said I was supposed to go and see Elijah so that he gives me a certain weapon or stick and go and fetch Mr Nqobo.

I went to Elijah and he gave me a stick. He gave me a gun which had four rounds and then I went. Simon accompanied me. We went straight to Mr Nqobo's house, we knocked, they opened the door for us. Simon told them that we were there to fetch Mr Nqobo because he was wanted in the meeting.

Mr Nqobo came and he said he was unable to come to that meeting. We told him that we were instructed that we shouldn't come back alone, we were supposed to bring him back and he insisted that he was unable to come with us to the meeting. Therefore we left.

When we left, we knew that in the meeting we were told that people who were IFP members, were supposed to come to the meeting so that they are told that they should leave the township. If they didn't want to do so, they were supposed to be killed.

Therefore the moment when we left Mr Nqobo's house, I remembered that we were told that if they refused, we were supposed to kill them, therefore I took the gun from Simon. It was an AK47 which had a spear in front.

All the people who were in the house, they were out of the house by that time. When I grabbed that firearm, Mr Nqobo went back to the house and his son, Reginald. Reginald locked the door. When he knocked the door, I tried to open the door with the handle, but it was knocked.

I told them that I was about to shoot the door. There was no response. I told them for the second time that I was going to shoot at the door, but there was no response. I fired.

When I fired for the first time, the firearm was an automatic firearm and it fired three rounds and one round was left. I touched the handle and I tried to open the door, but I couldn't. I fired again with the fourth round. I heard a scream from the house, someone was screaming in the house. I thought to myself that I had managed to hit Mr Nqobo.

I went back, I took cover, I went back, I gave the firearm back to Elijah. When I was still sitting there, in my base, the place where I used to base, I heard that there were a lot of people there. I heard that Mr Nqobo's son was taken to hospital, he was hit in the leg. It is not Mr Nqobo, he was hit on the foot, it was not Mr Nqobo who was hit.

I did not feel good about that because I was not sent there to hit Mr Nqobo's family, I was told that if I experienced some resistance from Mr Nqobo, I should hit him. I went to Sipho because Mr Nqobo is still around.

Sipho was one of the SDU members who had a firearm. I went to him, I took his firearm, it was an AK47 rifle. I did not check as to how many bullets were in the firearm. I took a short cut that led me straight to Mr Nqobo's house. When I appeared there, I saw him handling the burglar door, he was smoking.

He saw me, when he tried to disappear, I fired on his foot and he fell. He tried to get into the bedroom, he fell and he fell. His head went inside the bedroom, but the whole body was outside the bedroom.

I fired continuously until all the bullets were finished. I went back to Sipho to give him the firearm. Yes, he died.

MR SIBEKO: Now Mr Nhlapo, at the time you fired towards the door and you heard somebody screaming, you thought it was Mr Nqobo himself, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I thought that it was Mr Nqobo who was screaming.

MR SIBEKO: Only to discover later that his son was the one who was hit?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, after some time I learnt that the person who was shot, was Reginald.

MR SIBEKO: In your application form, on page 199, paragraph 9(b), it is stated that the victim was killed and his son injured by mistake. Will I be correct to understand the mistake part of this evidence, to be only applicable to the son and not to the victim, not to Mr Nqobo?

MR NHLAPO: Yes. In my application form, I intended to state that I killed Mr Nqobo and his son was hit by mistake.

MR SIBEKO: But at the time you fired your shots towards the door, there were according to what you saw, what you observed, there were only two people because the rest went out of the house, because the rest went out of the house?

There were only two people, that is Mr Nqobo and his son, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes. The only people who were left in the house were two, those were the people who went back to the house, the others had left the house. The two of them went back to the house.

MR SIBEKO: And as a result of your knowledge ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, don't you think this part of the application should be withdrawn, unless you have got other ideas?

MR SIBEKO: The part of the accident?

CHAIRPERSON: The mistake, yes.

MR SIBEKO: Yes, I request that it be withdrawn.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then we leave the evidence.

MR SIBEKO: Yes. From your evidence it transpires that you were in unlawful possession of two AK47's, that is the one that you took from Elijah and the other one that you took from Sipho, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you also request that the two unlawful acts be also included as part of the applications that you are applying for for amnesty?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Now sir, if you were to meet the survivors of Mr Nqobo and Reginald, would you happily cease the opportunity to make peace with the family and ask for their, in fact tell them how you feel as a result of your conduct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes. I would like, I would appreciate that. The death of Mr Nqobo is not my intention, but because of the situation prevailing at the time in the Katlehong community, I would request to be given that opportunity to ask for forgiveness.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Nhlapo, there are just two areas that I would like you to assist me on. The first one is when you went to look for Mr Nqobo and he wasn't there, he was at work, you then reported and what I had thought you said was you reported to the Commander, you hadn't found him.

From what you said later, it would appear that you were still telling his sons that they should tell him that you had been there, when you saw him arrive. Just clarify that for me, I was not too sure as to what exactly happened. When did you see him arrive, where were you, what were you doing when you saw him come home from work?

MR NHLAPO: I left the meeting as I was told to go and check if he was there in his house. I went to his house, I found his son sitting in the kitchen. I asked them if their father was around, they said he was still at work at that time.

I went back to the meeting, same meeting where the Commanders were. I told them that Mr Nqobo was still at work, and I left the meeting and I saw him coming, walking on the play ground, he was on his way to his house.

I went back to the Commanders again, and I told them.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, that helps me. When you left the meeting, at that point, where were you going to? Were you no longer part of this meeting?

MR NHLAPO: The meeting was only for the Commanders, I was not part of the meeting, because I was not a Commander.

ADV GCABASHE: The instruction you were given by your Commander was that you should go and fetch ...(indistinct) Nqobo and bring him back to the meeting? I can't quite relate that instruction with the fact of the killing.

What made you think that you had the authority to kill Mr Nqobo, having been given specific instructions to bring him back so that he could give an explanation about himself and his political affiliation?

MR NHLAPO: The authority to kill him, did not come from me, but that was said at the meeting because they were discussing the people who were among the Radebe community who were IFP members, which the Radebe community was ANC. Those people who were not ANC members, were the people were the people who were supposed to come to the meeting and explain the position regarding to the community.

They were supposed to say whether they are willing to work with the community or they were still working for the IFP. I was told to bring him with and if he refuses, I was told to kill him. That is what I did. I did as I was told.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying when you originally left to go to ...(indistinct) Nqobo's house, you had one, an instruction to bring him back, and if he resisted, you were specifically told you should kill him, is this what you are saying?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct. I was told to bring him to the meeting, but if he refuses to do so, I was to shoot him, I was told to kill him. That is what I did.

ADV GCABASHE: After having shot at the house, when in fact it was the son, Reginald, who was injured, not Mr Nqobo, you left, you were under the impression that Mr Nqobo had been shot? You left to go to where you normally base. Were your Commanders at that base?

MR NHLAPO: No, the Commanders were not there at my base. After shooting at the door, I took the firearm back to Elijah, the one who had given me the firearm. From Elijah's place, I went to my base.

ADV GCABASHE: I am trying to again, work out the authority you had, or the reason, that you went back to Mr Nqobo's house to kill him, without talking to a Commander or without talking to anybody at all about what you were about to do.

Just take me through that again, and tell me where you would then have had that authority from?

MR NHLAPO: The authority to kill Mr Nqobo was already given to me from the beginning when I was told to go and check him at his house, I was told to bring him to the meeting and if he refuses to do so, I was told to shoot him and kill him.

That is what I did. That is why I did not go back to the Commander to tell him, because the mission was accomplished.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

MR NHLAPO: Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION:

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant Mr Chairman, is Mr Sipho Albert Mkhonto. His application appears on page 160 under application number AM7012/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhonto, which language would you prefer to use?

MR MKHONTO: Zulu.

SIPHO ALBERT MKHONTO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir, will I be correct to say that you are applying for amnesty for murder and unlawful possession of a firearm and ammunitions?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, sir?

MR MKHONTO: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Which Section?

MR MKHONTO: Radebe Section.

MR SIBEKO: Which township?

MR MKHONTO: That is in Katlehong.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your Commander?

MR MKHONTO: My Commander was that ...(indistinct)

MR SIBEKO: Mr Hlutwa?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, that is Mr Hlutwa.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the African National Congress?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: The incidents that you are applying for, do you know when they occurred, the dates when they occurred?

MR MKHONTO: I can still remember the year, it was July 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Now what happened in that particular month, in July 1993?

MR MKHONTO: His house was burnt down.

MR SIBEKO: Who is the person that you murdered?

MR MKHONTO: Absolom Shozi.

MR SIBEKO: Absolom Boy Shozi?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: How did it happen sir?

MR MKHONTO: The decision was already taken that if we found him, he is supposed to be killed, because he was an IFP member.

It happened one day when he was, the decision was taken in the community meeting, that wherever we find him, he was supposed to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was he to be killed?

MR MKHONTO: He was the leader of the IFP and they were harassing the community. They were assaulting people and doing all the wrong things that were not supposed to be done in our community.

He was a leader of that particular group of people. I was from my home one day, when I left my home, I wanted to go towards the direction of the play grounds, I wanted to see what was happening there. When I was still going there, I saw Tumo and Mobi. They asked me, they wanted to know where I was going. I told them that I was just going for a walk towards the direction of the play ground, they told me not to go to that direction because Mr Shozi was coming down from his home towards the play ground.

When I looked further, I saw him and I knew that this was the person that we were told about. We were told to kill. I did not waste time, I went to Mr Masidane's place where the AK47 was. The gentleman's surname is Masidane, I went to his place to fetch the AK47.

I explained everything to him, and I told him that I want him to give me the firearm because Mr Shozi was around. He gave me the firearm. After giving me this firearm, I took it and I went up to Shozi's place. When I appeared, Mr Shozi had taken a direction towards Kwasine Hostel.

We decided to walk, to go via some short cuts.

MR SIBEKO: When you went to fetch this firearm, you were alone, is that correct?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, I was alone.

MR SIBEKO: And then when you got this firearm and looked for Mr Shozi, you say now, you are talking in terms of we. Who else was there and how did, when exactly did you meet the second person or the third person?

MR MKHONTO: The other person that I met on the way was Mzambia. I told him that Mr Shozi was around and he had taken a Kwasine Hostel direction. I went there with him, to try and prevent him from going further.

Ndamase came, and in that process, there were three of us now. When he went down that street where we were waiting for him, I told Mzambia that I am not good in handling the firearm, I cannot handle the firearm, or use a firearm. He took the firearm, he prepared it for me and he gave it back to me.

He told me to shoot him. I shot at him, for about three times, but I was not successful. Ndamase told me that the only thing that is needed to kill, to injure this person, was the knives and the pangas before shooting him. Ndamase rushed to fetch the panga and when the other people heard the gunshots went outside, they wanted to know what was happening.

When they came, they saw Mr Shozi. They did not ask questions, they hit him, they stabbed him, they hacked him. I was next to them. After hacking and stabbing him, they instructed me to shoot him.

I shot at him for about five times. After that, I took the firearm back to the place where I found it before.

MR SIBEKO: Right. You met Mzambia when you got the firearm, is that correct?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You went together with Mzambia and as you say, you went through your covers, until you waited for Mr Shozi somewhere?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Whilst waiting, the third person joined in, that is Ndamase?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, Mr Ndamase came through another short cut.

MR SIBEKO: When Mr Shozi appeared, you started firing at him, is that correct?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And you say you didn't miss him, in fact, at what distance, what was the distance between yourselves, that is yourself and Mr Shozi?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you miss him when you shot at him?

MR MKHONTO: No. No, I did not miss him. I was shooting at close range, because from the place where we were hiding, we could see him, but he couldn't see us.

When he came closer, just at a distance of where I am right now and you Mr Chairman, I appeared and I started shooting.

MR SIBEKO: The shots that you fired, did not hit him, is that correct?

MR MKHONTO: No, the shots did not hit him.

MR SIBEKO: And then Ndamase said he should be, Mr Shozi should be stabbed first before he could be fired at, is that correct?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Ndamase started stabbing him and thereafter you fired shots?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, while Ndamase went to fetch the panga, and the other people heard the gunshot outside, and they had to go out and check what was happening, and the others came because they heard the gunshots, they came and they saw Mr Shozi and they knew that he was about to be killed. During that process, he was stabbed and hacked.

He started to bleed, because I had to wait for him to bleed and I shot at him.

MR SIBEKO: From there, after you fired your shots, you left?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, I went to place the firearm where it was before.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know what ultimately happened to him thereafter?

MR MKHONTO: No, I don't know what happened because I left the scene because I went to place the firearm somewhere.

MR SIBEKO: If you were to meet the survivors of Mr Shozi, would you make peace with them?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, if I can meet with those people, I will ask for forgiveness. I will be very happy to get that opportunity, because what I did at the time, I was not doing it for my own benefit, I was doing it for the benefit of the community. Because of the situation at the time, it was very tense, the situation was very tense, I was forced to do whatever, I wanted to free my community from all those things because if I did not do that, I was also going to die.

I am asking for an apology, even if they can come here, I can ask for an apology.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions for the applicant.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkhonto, do you know why he was supposed to bleed first before the bullets can strike him?

MR MKHONTO: No. I do not know, because I never used muti or traditional medicine before. Ndamase was the one who was using the muti. He is the one who knew what should happen to a person, who it is not very easy to shoot him. He knew that he is supposed to be hacked or stabbed before one can manage to shoot that particular person.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is the only question.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Mr Mkhonto, you did say that the reason that Mzambia prepared the firearm for you, was because you couldn't use it. What did you say about why did he prepare the firearm for you?

MR MKHONTO: I was not able to bridge the firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: Not that you weren't able to use it, it is just the bridging that you couldn't do?

MR MKHONTO: Yes, I was able to use the firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: Now tell me, had you not come across these two friends of yours, how were you going to use this firearm that you couldn't bridge? Where were you going to with this firearm that you couldn't bridge?

MR MKHONTO: I knew that if I am walking through those short cuts, I was sure that I would find someone, or else I was going to go to the base and find some other gentlemen there who would help me to go and kill Mr Shozi, to help and bridge the firearm for me.

ADV GCABASHE: Right, one final question. You shot at Mr Shozi the first time and you couldn't hit him, well, you were unsuccessful. What was Mr Shozi doing at that time, you were shooting at him, you could see that your bullets were not doing anything to him, what was he doing?

I would have run away, what did he do?

MR MKHONTO: When I was shooting at him, he was coming to me. He was coming to me to take this AK47. As I was shooting, I was reversing, I was going back, but he was approaching me, he was coming to me to get the firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: He didn't have anything in his hands, he wasn't armed?

MR MKHONTO: No, he was unarmed.

ADV GCABASHE: So really in a sense you were rescued by the people who came out and started attacking him and hacking him, because the man was approaching you and you were busy reversing?

MR MKHONTO: I can say so. I can say I was rescued by those people who came and hacked him and stabbed him.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Mkhonto, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, at this stage I would like to withdraw the application of Sebati Mante Sofi, which appears on page 204, application number AM5473/97.

CHAIRPERSON: It is so withdrawn.

MR SIBEKO: At this moment, may I be excused Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you done?

MR SIBEKO: There is only one application which is left, I cannot see the applicant, he is not here, he hasn't arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: What do we do about that?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What are we going to do about that?

MR SIBEKO: I spoke to him yesterday, he said he would be here today. I beg leave that we stand it down. If he doesn't arrive, then I will leave it in the hands of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Just don't leave now, I just want to find out something from Mr Steenkamp. What have we got left Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, Mr Sanje Makanjee is ready to take the chair with your permission, to start immediately, is ready and correct and he is ready to proceed after Mr Sibeko, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's carry on like that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman, I am Sanje Makanjee, I am appearing on behalf of Victor Peter Moloi, who I also call now to give evidence, it is application number 6419/97, appearing on page 189.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloi, what language would you prefer to use?

MR MOLOI: Sesothu.

VICTOR PETER MOLOI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman, at the outset, I notice that on my client's application, at 9(a)(i) he mentions murder, attempted arson and damage to property. After taking instructions, it appears that it is in fact murder, arson and damage to property and it is not attempted arson. I just wish to clarify that.

After leading my client, his explanation would become quite clear on that aspect.

Mr Moloi, are you a member of the ANC?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: You were a member of the Katlehong SDU, is that correct?

MR MOLOI: Yes.

MR MAKANJEE: You are applying for amnesty for murder, arson and malicious injury to property, is that correct?

MR MOLOI: Yes.

MR MAKANJEE: I notice in your application you state it was from 1993 to 1994. Could you be more specific as to when this incident occurred?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

ADV GCABASHE: You are saying there were lots of people at home, your home?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: Would you tell us about this incident in question please?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Moloi, I just want you to take everything very slowly, the Committee is trying to write down what you say. So just be very slow, take your time please.

ADV GCABASHE: So there were 16 of you. Start at that point.

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: What did you do after that?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: What did you have sir?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: Do you know, can you name any of the other people who were with you?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

ADV GCABASHE: Just on that particular day, because of what had been happening in the area?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Moloi, tell us about the act of murder that you committed, be as specific as you can please.

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: Was the person dead when you left, after you had attacked him?

MR MOLOI: (No translation)

MR MAKANJEE: What did you do after you killed him?

MR MOLOI: We went to check these shacks that belonged to the IFP members, and those who were attacked, came during the night, who are not there, we set their shacks alight. We destroyed everything that belonged to them.

We set the shacks alight.

CHAIRPERSON: How many?

MR MOLOI: Three shacks were set alight.

MR MAKANJEE: Did you do anything else to the body of the person that you had killed?

MR MOLOI: Nothing was done.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you leave him inside his shack?

MR MOLOI: Yes, we left him in the premises. He was a tenant there, that was not his home, that was not his own place.

ADV GCABASHE: And you burnt his shack, so the body was burnt in that burning of the shack, even this man's body?

MR MOLOI: No, he was outside the shack. We took him out of the shack.

ADV GCABASHE: So his body wasn't burnt at all?

MR MOLOI: No, his body wasn't burnt.

MR MAKANJEE: The shacks that you burnt, were badly damaged, is that correct?

MR MOLOI: Yes, it was badly damaged.

MR MAKANJEE: The petrol to burn the shacks, where did you get that from?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it relevant Mr Makanjee?

MR MAKANJEE: I just thought the Committee ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is burnt.

MR MAKANJEE: I've got no further questions for this witness.

ADV STEENKAMP: I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: No questions Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just to help me understand your evidence properly, essentially what you are saying is the reason you went out as a group, eight and then 16, was to go and attack the people who had been attacking you and in doing so, protect your community, is this really what you are saying? This is the reason you went out that day?

MR MOLOI: To protect the community.

ADV GCABASHE: And you did this in circumstances where the community had very recently been attacked as well by members of...

MR MOLOI: Yes, immediately after they have attacked the community.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused. Or before you go, before you go, when did you join the SDU?

MR MOLOI: In 1993, early 1993 before the violence.

CHAIRPERSON: And one other issue, 16 of you and eight of you, did you go look for these IFP members?

MR MOLOI: We knew where they were staying, the members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: You went out to go and get them?

MR MOLOI: We only got one, the one we killed. The others they ran away after they had attacked at night.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman, I do have one other matter which is a hearable matter.

The Prison Authorities did not bring the applicant to court today. I have informed them that he is in the awaiting trial section on another matter.

CHAIRPERSON: When are they promising to bring him?

MR MAKANJEE: I spoke to my colleague as well, and we were under the impression that he would be brought today, but I assume that if he hasn't been brought by now, they won't be bringing him today.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no chance, those guys stop work at two o'clock.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, my suggestion to my colleague was if he is not here today, he will probably be enrolled probably for the next hearing. Whatever the position is, however Mr Chairman, Ms Nhlayisi is ready with her next client, if you would allow that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, they have numerous problems with Correctional Services. I am in the process trying to sort it out.

CHAIRPERSON: Keep us updated on that.

ADV STEENKAMP: I will do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How many have we got left, how many applications?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, for the day, basically two. It is Ms Nhlayisi and a client of Mr Sanje Makanjee.

CHAIRPERSON: And then we are done with this?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman, then only the question of Mr Selepe which was standing down.

It will probably be heard, I would suggest with all due respect Mr Chairman, it will probably be dealt with by tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV STEENKAMP: I will see if I can sort that out in the meantime as well.

CHAIRPERSON: So we've got two that will probably be handled tomorrow, both from the prisons?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let us get done with Ms Nhlayisi's.

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, that is correct, and then the question, it is the one applicant of Mr Sibeko, which will probably not be, he will probably not be attending today, so I am just waiting for the final word from Mr Sibeko.

There is a probability that the application will also be withdrawn.

Thank you Mr Chairman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Nhlayisi?

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chair. The applicant's name is Lucky Themba Buthelezi. His application appears on page 88, application number AM7563/97. The applicant is bringing an application for amnesty for possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition, murders for undetermined number of people, and attempted murders for undetermined number of people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, which language would you prefer to use?

MR BUTHELEZI: Zulu.

LUCKY THEMBA BUTHELEZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Be seated. Mr Buthelezi, I see you are dressed in prison clothes. Are you serving a sentence at the moment?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am serving a sentence for another incident, not the ones that I am applying amnesty for.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Buthelezi, you were a member of the SDU in Skosana Section, Katlehong, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: When did you join the SDUs?

MR BUTHELEZI: In 1991.

MS NHLAYISI: Who was your Commander at that stage?

MR BUTHELEZI: Comrade Mqoma and Mathule Mtabela.

MS NHLAYISI: Were they Commanders at the same time, or was it Mqoma first and then at a later stage it became Mathule Mtabela, what was the position?

MR BUTHELEZI: Mqoma was my Commander first, and then Mathule later.

MS NHLAYISI: In your application form, you are mentioning an incident that took place at Buyafuthi Hostel. Could you tell the Committee when did this incident take place, in which year was it?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I can. It was in 1993, if I remember, I think it was in April.

Commander Mqoma received a telephone call from Radebe Section. They were complaining that IFP members are attacking them. Mqoma called us from our bases at Skosana Section. He told us that people were being attacked at Radebe Section and we were supposed to go and help the community there.

We left, it was myself, Commander Mqoma, Mathule Mtabela and comrade Sitaba. On our way to Radebe, Stability Units stopped us, but we tried to escape. We went back where we came from.

We left the weapons there at our base. We tried to go back to the township, to Radebe Section where the incident had occurred.

When we arrived there, we found out two people were injured, three were injured and two were killed. We came together with the community of Radebe and some people from Tokoza.

MS NHLAYISI: Before you proceed, on your arrival at Radebe Section, when you found that two people were dead and three were injured, was the fight between the IFP and the members of your Self Defence Units, still going on, or the IFP members had left at that stage, what was the position?

MR BUTHELEZI: If you could please repeat your question.

MS NHLAYISI: You said you arrived at Radebe to find that two people were dead, three were injured. What was going on at that stage? Was the shooting between the IFP members and the Self Defence Unit in Radebe still going on at that stage?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, IFP were attacking the community in Radebe Section. They were the ones who were attacking the community.

When these three people were taken to hospital, we got together, we had a meeting as SDU from Radebe and Tokoza and Skosana members. We decided that the following day we were supposed to attack them.

We decided that we were going to launch the attack in the morning the next day. We left Radebe, we entered Tokoza, we came from Unit F. We were 17 if I remember very well. Just before we arrived at the place, my Commander told me that I was the one who was supposed to shoot because there were IFP members at the gate of the hostel. I don't know if they ere guarding the place or what, but there was a fire there and we were waiting there.

The person who gave me the command was comrade Mathule. He said I was the one who was supposed to shoot those people. I started crawling towards the gate where these people were standing. I started shooting. I think I shot about 32 bullets from my AK47.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know whether any people were killed in this incident, when you fired at this group of people that you found at the gate?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer that question, were you the only one that discharged the firearm there?

INTERPRETER: I didn't get that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the only one that discharged firearms there in that operation?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was the only one.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chair. Do you know when you fired shots, whether anybody was killed as a result of you firing some shots at that group of people that you found standing at the gate.

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I don't know, but I have seen others falling down and some were running away. Therefore I don't know whether some people died or not. I shot about 32 rounds.

Some ran away and some fell down. After that, I took a cover and I went back to the SDU members who were there, and we went back to Radebe Section and we dismissed from there, we went back to our respective areas.

MS NHLAYISI: You are also not in a position to tell this Committee how many people fell on the ground as you were shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if anybody died?

MR BUTHELEZI: I don't know for sure, I don't remember.

When I was shooting at this group of people, I was at a distance. I saw them because they had a fire there around, there where they were standing. Yes, I was pointing at them and some of them fell and some ran away. I don't know whether they died or they just got injured.

MS NHLAYISI: Because you do not know whether people died or were injured in that incident, but because you saw people falling down, you are now applying for amnesty for murder, for an undetermined number of people and attempted murder, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: You are also applying for amnesty for possessing an unlicensed firearm and ammunition?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In view of the fact that we have not been provided with evidence of any depth, what is the position about the application in respect of murder because murder by definition requires someone to die?

Would it not be more prudent to amend the application to that of attempted murder of an undetermined number of people?

MS NHLAYISI: I think that will be appropriate in the circumstances Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. There were 17 of you who went to Buyafuthi Hostel that morning. It was Buyafuthi, wasn't it?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, it was.

ADV GCABASHE: What did the other 16 do while you executed the actual shooting?

MR BUTHELEZI: They were protecting me, they were taking cover to protect me - if I was in danger, they were going to come for me.

ADV GCABASHE: So the other 16 were armed as well?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But not one of them fired any shots?

MR BUTHELEZI: No one fired any shot because the order was issued to me directly.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. This Buyafuthi Hostel, we have had evidence of it being attacked, I think with the assistance of a casper? Do you know about that? It may have been a different incident?

MR BUTHELEZI: I know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this in fact another incident that you testified on?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, it is a different incident, it is not the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your incident occur first or the other one?

MR BUTHELEZI: My incident occurred first.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are excused.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman, that concludes my role.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, is that all that we can do today?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, just for record purposes, the last applicant Zakwe Thambiso, that is the client of Mr Vusi Sibeko, the applicant is available, he is here now.

I am informed that his wife is in hospital with an urgent position. That is why he was late. Unfortunately the position is still urgent and there is a request if you would allow it, if you would indulge it Mr Chairman, that this matter can stand down till tomorrow morning, that we can have a final position on that?

CHAIRPERSON: In the circumstances we have to stand it down till tomorrow.

By my count, we have four matters outstanding for tomorrow?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, it is actually only three matters, because one matter was removed from the roll, that is the matter of Moloi and then the other matter was withdrawn by Mr Sibeko.

It is only, basically three matters standing down till tomorrow.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope we are in a position to - how to be able to give judgments in matters that we are able to give so, and probably most of the matters heard this week on Friday morning.

Those who are interested in the decisions can come on Friday morning, although we will listen to the other applications tomorrow.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I may remind there is a position about, I understand a meeting on Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I say Friday morning. We will adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.