CHAIRPERSON: We will commence with the application of Jabulani Tunene Ncokwane.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee is the same as it has been earlier in the week, that is Mr Sibanyoni has rejoined us in place of Dr Tsotsi. Would you please place yourself on record?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee. I am John Wills, attorney from Pietermartizburg. I'm representing all three applicants in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, I'm Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader and I will be appearing on behalf of the victims in this matter, thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Just for the benefit of the Committee, what we intend doing in this application is leading the evidence of Izak Shange initially and then he will be followed by Jabulani Tunene Ncokwane and finally it will be Jabulani Dota Cele. Then maybe, depending on how things proceed, there may be a witness in addition to that, but that decision will be made depending on how the evidence proceeds. Thank you. May I commence by calling Mr Shange?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Please be seated.

MR WILLS: Thank you. May I proceed, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: You may.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Mr Shange, you completed an amnesty application on the 13th of September 1996, at Westville Prison. I've been through that application with you, do you confirm the contents contained in that application?

MR LAX: Sorry, I notice he's not wearing any headphones, would someone just assist him there please.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Shange, you completed an application form for amnesty on the prescribed form on the 13th day of September 1996, at Westville Prison, do you recall doing that?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now do you confirm the contents of that application?

MR SHANGE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I'm referring to the document that is at page 43 to page 55 of the bundle, and the translation thereof commences at page 36.

CHAIRPERSON: There's one slight problem, that the translation for some reason does not include the translation of pages 48, 49 to 50.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I need to have a look at that. We have made a further statement, which I think goes into some detail, but is that translation not available at all?

CHAIRPERSON: We spoken to the translators here. They have read it and they are prepared to translate it into the record now.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I have drawn their attention to the fact though, that if you look at your record, at page 48, you will see the page is marked 8.

MR WILLS: 8, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: At page 49, it is marked 7 and at page 50 it is marked 6. The three pages have been filed in the wrong order, but I have asked the young lady who is doing the interpreting, if she would start at page 50, 49, 48, to get it in the order it apparently should be.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I'm indebted to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you assist us in that way, please.

INTERPRETER: We are about to finish, we haven't yet.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I propose that we stand down until such time as that translation is completed.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is only fair that it should be, it should have been made available to you very much earlier, but it should be on record before the witness is asked to testify about it. So we will take a further adjournment and let the young lady get on with it. As I told them, when they came to see us they thought it was going to be an easy task, but the handwriting is not the best handwriting that I have seen and it's obviously taking some time to read.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn further.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that the passage that we requested of the application has now been interpreted and we have all been served with a copy of that. I would like to place on record my gratitude, that of my Committee, and I'm sure that of all other parties to the young ladies concerned who had to do something far away from their normal duties. We are all very, very grateful to you.

Right, can we now proceed, we now have a properly interpreted copy of the statement that he has already confirmed having made.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I take it that you don't want this read into the record, there's no longer any need?

CHAIRPERSON: There's no need, we now have a written copy which we will merely insert into the record. The pages are numbered 6, 7 and 8 and will take the part of numbers 48, 49 and 50. Oh, sorry, I'm wrong there, that will be in at page 39(a), (b) and (c).

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Shange, you've confirmed making these statements in support of your amnesty application, I want to deal briefly with your background. Now can you tell us when you were born and what educational standard you achieved when you left school.

MR SHANGE: Can I explain?

MR WILLS: Go ahead please.

MR SHANGE: I was born in 1974, March 15. I went up to standard five in 1992 - my apology there, standard five in 1991.

MR WILLS: Now it's clear from your statements that you were an ANC supporter, can you tell the Committee when you became an ANC supporter?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Go ahead.

MR SHANGE: In 1991.

MR WILLS: And what made you become an ANC supporter?

MR SHANGE: It was the organisation which I liked. I liked the policies of the ANC, because it was fighting for human rights. That is why I decided to join the ANC.

MR WILLS: And after you joined the ANC, you became involved in this incident which occurred on the 27th of April 1992, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And you admitted having taken part in the incident where six people were killed and eight people were injured?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Prior to discussing the incident, can you tell us the background, the political background in the area in which you were residing?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And I just want you to commence from the part in your statement where you mention that a meeting was addressed by Nkosi Hlengwa.

MR SHANGE: In 1991, we were told that there was a meeting at the chief's place, Chief Hlengwa. I joined the people who were going to the meeting. We were together with other people and these people were armed. ANC supporters didn't go to this meeting. I went and I joined other people who were going to this meeting.

MR WILLS: I'm just going to interrupt you, why did you go to this meeting if, as you say, you were an ANC supporter?

MR SHANGE: The reason I went to this meeting is I found that there were other people who were going to this meeting and people were told that they should go to this meeting, all of them. We went to this meeting. When we arrived at the chief's place - I left while the meeting was still on, I went back home and other people were still in that meeting. I ate and then I left home. When I was in the street, these people came back from the meeting and gunshots were fired.

When they arrived near my place, they said they've seen a war. They said we should go to this war. I wasn't armed. I took a stick. I joined these people to go and attack. When they arrived there they didn't enter the place, but gunshots were fired and the people who were there had already ran away.

MR WILLS: Whose place was attacked and why was it attacked, in your opinion?

MR SHANGE: It was Lapagama'a house.

MR WILLS: Can you give his full name please.

MR SHANGE: Lapagama Izak Shange.

MR WILLS: Is he also known as Master Shange?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And what - did he have any political affiliation?

MR SHANGE: He was an ANC supporter.

MR WILLS: Now before we get off the meeting, do you know what was discussed at the meeting that Nkosi Hlengwa called?

MR SHANGE: They were discussing about area issued and also that they were ANC supporters in the area. That's when I left the meeting.

MR WILLS: And was anything said about what should be done about the ANC supporters?

MR SHANGE: I didn't hear what decision was taken against ANC supporters, because I left the meeting before it was over.

MR WILLS: Right. You say in another statement which you made to one of the TRC staff members, Deborah Quinn - I don't know how we can identify this as part of the record, Mr Chairperson, but I believe that everyone has a copy of it. It's a statement taken by ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit A.

MR WILLS: Exhibit A, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

You say there that Hlengwa said that everyone in the area had to join the IFP. When did Hlengwa say this?

MR SHANGE: He mentioned this when they were talking about ANC supporters. They were complaining that ANC supporters are now in the area, and he said that people were not supposed to be ANC, but IFP. And he said they should proceed, they shouldn't deal more about that, they should proceed talking about issues concerning the area.

MR WILLS: Okay. You've said that you were involved in an attack on Master Shange's house, with a group of people, can you carry on from there?

MR SHANGE: Yes. When they arrived at Master's place, they didn't enter his house, they just fired gunshots and only to discover that the people who were there were no longer there, they've ran away to a nearby bush and others were asking as to what was happening. They were also firing gunshots. We scattered. We all ran away and we scattered.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something? You seem to be talking about two different groups of people firing gunshots, have I understood you correctly?

MR SHANGE: Yes, when the other group was firing at Master's place and Master and his group also fired, so there were two groups firing at each other.

MR LAX: And then people ran away, and was that the end of that attack?

MR SHANGE: After they scattered, myself and Mbali we left and we sought refuse because we didn't go to our places because we were scared. I wasn't a supporter of IFP. I told them I was going to work, but I wasn't going to work.

I was going to look for ANC supporters so that I could join them and I'm with them. I found them and I stayed with them. They were in a forest. We were not quite a number compared to IFP supporters, we decided to run away because we were scared that they were going to kill us. We left for Umgubaba because we trusted that we were going to be safe there because at Umgubaba many people were ANC supporters. We stayed at Umgubaba.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, just one point of clarification, when the group was called to go and attack Master Shange's group, did you accompany that group?

MR SHANGE: Yes, I did.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you also intend to have the same purpose as them, of attacking Master Shange's place?

MR SHANGE: No, I didn't have the same purpose because these people who were going to attack were my people, or in other words I belonged to them.

MR SIBANYONI: If you wouldn't heed the call to go and join them, what would have happened to you?

MR SHANGE: I believe I was going to be killed because in that area they didn't want comrades. That's why we were going to attack this place. That's why I decided to join them.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Wills, you may proceed.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

You said that you went to Umgubaba because you were afraid that you were going to be killed and so the ANC group went to Umgubaba. Now you mentioned in your statement that prior to that there was an attack on the ANC group in the forest, is that correct?

MR LAX: Won't you just refer us to where that is, Mr Wills, just for the record's sake.

MR WILLS: It's on page 2 of Exhibit A.

MR SHANGE: When we arrived at Umgubaba, some of us left Umgubaba and went and stayed at Nkwale. Our aim was to go back and attack so that we go back to our area and stay.

MR WILLS: Were you at any stage attacked while you were living in the forest or staying in the forest, by the IFP?

MR SHANGE: Yes, we were attacked by the IFP while we were in the forest.

MR WILLS: And were there people injured or killed in that attack?

MR SHANGE: It wasn't a single incident, I think two incidents occurred whilst we were in the forest. In one incident two people died, in one, one person died.

MR WILLS: And you say in the one incident you reported the deaths of these people to the police on the Sunday, and that their bodies were only recovered the following Tuesday, is that right?

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now you also say that while you were living in the forest, Master Shange used to supply you with food and arms and also give you training in the use of those firearms, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: Yes, that's correct, he used to help us with food and firearms and training us as well.

MR WILLS: Alright. Then can you tell us about Mr Mtolo and what he did for you?

MR SHANGE: Yes. Mr Mtolo was the one person who used to help us, more especially with food if Master didn't supply us with food, because Master was staying far, he was staying at Umgubaba and Mr Mtolo was the one who used to take care of us, giving us food. He was of a big help to use.

MR WILLS: And what happened to Mr Mtolo?

MR SHANGE: Attackers came in the morning. He was from work, he was in the car. They attacked where we were staying. The people who were there ran away because the attackers were in a bigger number and he was from work. They shot him. He was in the car and they burnt the car.

MR WILLS: And he was killed?

MR SHANGE: Yes, he was killed.

MR WILLS: So what was the purpose of these, of you living in the forest and getting trained to use firearms?

MR SHANGE: The reason we were staying in the forest was because we've already left our places. We didn't have place to stay because we were attacked in our places, we were scared. We used to stay at Umgubaba, but then there we will share one house, 10 people sharing one house. That's why we were then trained in the forest, so that we could go back and attack, so that we go back to our respective places.

MR WILLS: And sometime after the funeral, you say two weeks after the funeral - and I'm referring to page 4 of Exhibit A, you and seven, or a group of seven ANC people, including yourself, returned to your area, that is the Nkwale area, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us why you did this and what happened thereafter?

MR SHANGE: When we left Umgubaba for Nkwale, the seven of us returned there because our aim was to launch an attack against IFP supporters, so that we could go back to our respective places.

We went there on Sunday and then on Monday we decided that we should attack these people and we came up with a plan as to how to attack them in masses, so that they also run away to another place. We decided that the only place that we can get them in numbers was getting them in a bus, because that bus was boarded by IFP supporters.

Then we decided that we were going to go and stop the bus and get inside the bus and remove females and when we remain with males we will attack the males or kill them.

MR WILLS: Okay. You say that:

Did anybody order you to do this attack, or to perform this act?

MR SHANGE: We decided as a group, no-one told us. We decided as a group, all of us, we agreed on one thing.

MR WILLS: As I see from page 4 of Exhibit A, this group of seven included yourself, applicant Jabulani Ncokwane and applicant Jabulani Cele, also Senzo Shange, Sonny Ngcobo, a person by the name of Umdeduzi and Jomo Mseleku, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you decided that you're going to attack this bus, can you continue and tell the Committee what you did?

MR SHANGE: After we agreed that we were going to attack the bus, we also agreed that we were going to remove females and children in the bus because we didn't want to fight females because we've never seen a single female shooting at us.

We left the forest. We arrived at the sugar-cane field. That is where we hid. We heard a car coming. Umdeduzi left because he thought it was police. Then the six of us remained there. Whilst we were there we also heard the bus coming and Sonny decided that he was the one who was going to stop the bus. We all agreed.

He left the sugar-cane. He stopped the bus. He ordered the bus driver to alight. We then came to the bus. We stopped down there. Jabulani Cele and Senzo Shange went and stopped at a certain hill so that they could see other people from a distance. When we arrived there I told women to alight the bus and the children and I ordered the men to stay behind, inside the bus. No-one came out, then we shot up and females or women and children cried and they said okay, we should stop so that they can alight the bus. Two men tried to alight as well, we shot at them and then they died.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

As I understood your evidence, you said that applicant Jabulani Cele, that's the third applicant here today, together with Senzo Shange, went and stood on some hill and in your statement you - and I'm referring to page 5 of Exhibit A, you say that they actually stood guard, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And then yourself and applicant two, that's Izak - sorry, that's the first applicant, Jabulani Ncokwane and Sonny Boy were involved in the actual attack, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: Together with Joe Cele.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now I want you to tell the Committee, first of all exactly what you did, and I'm going to lead you. You said that you ordered the women and children to come out of the bus.

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now where were you at this time, were you inside the bus or outside the bus?

MR SHANGE: Outside the bus.

MR WILLS: And you say they didn't respond and so you fired shots?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And where did you fire those shots? You said you fired them up, but where exactly did you fire the shots?

MR SHANGE: On top of the bus.

MR WILLS: Okay, continue from there, or what happened thereafter?

MR LAX: Sorry, could I just ask a question?

The bullets you fired on top of the bus, did they hit the bus?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: So did they hit the top of the bus?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Wills.

CHAIRPERSON: The roof - according to your statement you shot at the roof of the bus.

MR SHANGE: ...(no English interpretation). Yes, the roof of the bus, on top of the windows. I was trying to scare the women to leave the bus so that the men are remaining inside.

MR WILLS: Then I understand the women came out together with two men. Now the two men who came out together with the women, you said:

Did that include yourself? Did you shoot at those two men?

CHAIRPERSON: In his statement he says:

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Not:

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR SHANGE: Yes, I personally together with Jabulani Ncokwane and Joe Cele.

MR WILLS: Now did you ask, did you check up if there was anybody else in the bus, other than women, that you wanted to give a chance to go away?

MR SHANGE: I didn't board the bus, but what I said was; people who were not residents of Nkwale must come out and one man said he was from Adams, therefore we told him to leave, then we were only left with people from Nkwale and Mashiwane.

MR WILLS: Now after that, - sorry, did you let this person leave?

MR SHANGE: Yes, we did because he wasn't a resident of Nkwale of Mashiwane.

MR WILLS: And then after - sorry, I just want to concentrate on the driver of the bus. You indicated in your evidence, in your viva voce evidence here, that you allowed the driver to alight from the bus.

MR SHANGE: Yes, Sonny told him to run away, because the driver wasn't a resident of the area, therefore he wasn't one of the people who were attacking us.

MR WILLS: And so when a witness in court says that the driver escaped you would dispute that, is that correct, you actually allowed him to go away?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: I say there is a witness who testified in court to the effect that the driver escaped and obviously your evidence disputes that. Do you say that he didn't have to escape, he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was told to run away.

MR WILLS: ... he was told to run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that to escape?

MR LAX: Aren't we dealing with subjective perceptions here, Mr Wills? I mean the fact of the matter is that ...(intervention)

MR SHANGE: We actually let the driver to escape, we allowed him.

MR LAX: Correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson, Committee Member.

After you had shot at the two men, what happened thereafter?

MR SHANGE: After we shot these two men we told them that if anyone wasn't a resident of the area he must come out and one man said he was from Adams, then we told the man to run away as well, we said he must escape because we were looking for our enemies. After the man escaped we told the men to alight the bus. They didn't. That is when we started firing gunshots at the bus. I was outside near the bus. Jabulani Ncokwane was right in front of the bus.

Sonny was near the sugar-cane field, because he was guarding for the people who were trying to escape through windows. We shot at the bus for quite a while. Jabulani went in front of the bus or at the door. Jabulani shouted, saying that: "People are coming or attackers are coming" and we also heard gunshots. That's when we ran away. We got in the sugar-cane. We ran to Umgubaba. We gave Master the guns. We told Master that we've already attacked the bus.

MR WILLS: Okay, now I just want to get some clarity on what you've said. As I understand your evidence, at all stages you remained outside the bus, but you did shoot at the bus, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And is it also correct that once you had allowed the women and children to leave and also the people from other areas, when you fired at the bus it was your intention to kill the occupants, the remaining occupants inside that bus?

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And as regards applicant one, that's Jabulani Ncokwane, did he enter the bus and shoot from inside of the bus?

MR SHANGE: Yes, he did.

MR WILLS: And you were happy with what he did, you associated yourself with what he did?

MR SHANGE: Yes, we agreed, all of us.

MR WILLS: Now what about the third applicant, Jabulani Cele, he was you say, standing guard.

MR SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you remember if he fired any shots at the bus or at any of the people?

MR SHANGE: No, he didn't. His main function was to safeguard. He was supposed to tell us whenever the attackers were approaching towards us.

MR WILLS: And does the same apply to Senzo Shange, who was also a guard?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And the other two who were with you, ie, first of Sonny Boy Ngcobo or Sonny Ngcobo, did he fire shots at the people in the bus?

MR SHANGE: Yes, he shot at the people who were trying to escape through the windows of the bus.

MR WILLS: And what about Jomo Mseleku, what did he do?

MR SHANGE: He shot at the bus.

MR WILLS: Was he shooting from inside or outside, if you can recall?

MR SHANGE: From outside.

MR WILLS: So as I understand your evidence, it's only the first applicant who actually entered the bus and fired? That's Jabulani Ncokwane.

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now where did you get the guns from and what guns were they, who was armed with what?

MR SHANGE: Master gave us the guns. I personally was armed with a pump-gun, Jabulani Ncokwane had an AK47, Jomo also had an AK, Sonny Ngcobo as well, Jabulani Cele had a handgrenade, Senzo Shange had a home-made gun.

MR WILLS: Was the handgrenade used at all?

MR SHANGE: No.

MR WILLS: Then you were arrested some two days after this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you're going onto something else, I think we'll take the adjournment at this stage till a quarter to two.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn until a quarter to two.

ON RESUMPTION

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Right, are we ready to proceed? I think your last question was, you were starting to ask him about his arrest.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: (Cont)

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Shange, you were arrested at the place of your temporary employment at a disco some two days after the incident, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And can you tell this Committee how the police treated you when you were arrested?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Proceed.

MR SHANGE: When I was arrested, police found me at Sipingo where I was working. They took me and they asked me if I knew Jomo Mseleku, I told them, no I didn't know him. They asked me about Master, I told them I didn't know Master and they said to me I must tell the truth about the bus incident. I told them I didn't know anything.

They told me to tell the truth and I was very young to lie and they also promised to hit me. I told them I didn't know anything or any incident in connection with the bus. They started hitting me, they put me behind the police van. They took me to a nearby forest. They drove. I think the cars were many, besides the one I was in, they drove me there and when we were in that forest they took me out of the van, they said to me I still don't want to tell the truth or not. I told them I didn't know anything. They started hitting me and they said to me: "Okay, you can now go". And I asked them: "Go where?", because this is in the middle of the forest and they said you go back where we took you, so I told them I wasn't going to go there, I wasn't going to walk to the place where they took me, they must take me back and they said to me I was kidding.

I was about to tell them the truth because they were going to make me tell them the truth. They continued hitting me and then they took me to the police station in Brighton Beach. That's where I was locked.

MR WILLS: And you made a statement to the police - Mr Chairperson, this is one of the statements which I received during the lunch adjournment. It's marked Exhibit V. I believe it's from the High Court file in this matter and I think it forms part of the record, I would imagine, or do you want me to give it an exhibit number, Exhibit B?

CHAIRPERSON: I think call it Exhibit B.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Now you made a statement to the police shortly after your arrest, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: You made this statement in Durban on the 1st of May 1992.

MR SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Essentially, in this statement you formulate an alibi defence where you say you were somewhere else at the time of the incident and you weren't involved in this attack.

MR SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now why did you do this?

MR SHANGE: I wanted the police to see me as innocent so that they release me.

MR WILLS: But what you've said today, that you were involved is in fact the position, is that not so?

MR SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now I want you to explain to the Committee why you attacked the bus, what was the purpose for you attacking the bus?

MR SHANGE: The reason we attacked the bus was because we were trying to fight back to the people who forced us to leave our area, or our places. We wanted to stay there as ANC members, freely, and also we wanted to kick out Inkatha members because they were the reason why we were out of our places. We were born there and it was sad and difficult for us to leave our homes. We were forced and we were attacked. That's why saw it necessary for us to go back.

MR WILLS: Now you know that obviously you've caused a lot of pain to a lot of residents of that area. Do you have anything to say to those people's relatives who are here today?

MR SHANGE: Yes, there is.

MR WILLS: Continue.

MR SHANGE: To those people who suffered, I would like to apologise for what I have done. I did this because of the situation and the time. At the time it was appropriate, but I am sorry. If we were not fighting each other, I wouldn't have done that. I did this because I wanted us to go back to our area where we were born and raised, we wanted to stay there peacefully. We were kicked out and we were forced to leave the area.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, that is the evidence-in-chief from this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd just like to clarify one point before cross-examination.

Did you know one Bantu Hamilton Gumede?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he one of the apparent leaders, responsible for the attack on Mtolo?

MR SHANGE: Yes, Sonny said he saw him when Mr Mtolo's place was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the day you've been telling us about, did you intend to attack him and kill him?

MR SHANGE: Yes, we thought that he was going to be in the bus when we launched the attack to the bus.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was in fact injured, wasn't he?

MR SHANGE: I don't have sufficient information on this, because when we arrived there we didn't see him in the bus.

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Cross-examination?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Shange, I would like to know, when did you join the ANC?

MR SHANGE: In 1991.

MS MTANGA: Was this before the meeting called by Chief Hlengwa?

MR SHANGE: Before the meeting.

MS MTANGA: In your application, on page 39(a), you have stated that when the chief called a meeting, from the ANC group it was only three, it was yourself and two others who attended the meeting to listen to what the chief had to say. Why did the rest of the group not attend the meeting?

MR SHANGE: ANC supporters who didn't go to this meeting had heard a rumour that the meeting was called or held because they were going to discuss about ANC supporters, that they were not needed in the area.

MS MTANGA: Why did the three of you go to the meeting?

MR SHANGE: I arrived on that morning and I found these people who were going to the meeting and also the ANC supporters were no longer around or in their places.

MS MTANGA: Okay. Further on in your statement, page 39(b), you stated that:

Do you confirm this is the position? At the time you were at the meeting the chief did not discuss any politics?

MR SHANGE: I didn't say that I left the meeting because I wanted to go and report to the ANC, what I said was I left the meeting whilst it was still on, before it was over.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, I'm reading from your application, your amnesty application, and this is what you have stated in your application.

MR SHANGE: The people who were in that meeting did say or raise some political issues, it wasn't the chief himself, but the chief only said that everyone in that area was supposed to be an IFP member.

MS MTANGA: When you say "in that area", which area are you referring to?

MR SHANGE: Mashiwane and Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: Were all the people in Mashiwane or were the majority of people in Mashiwane and Nkwale, in your opinion, IFP people?

MR SHANGE: IFP is the majority.

MR SHANGE: Where did you live, Mr Shange?

MR SHANGE: Mashiwane.

MS MTANGA: How did you know about the political situations in Nkwale, if you lived in Mashiwane?

MR SHANGE: Nkwale and Mashiwane is sort of one area, one can walk from Mashiwane to Nkwale. The difference is between the schools, one school is called Mashiwane and the school is called Nkwale, but it's almost one area.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell me, prior to this incident, prior to the chief calling a meeting, were there political tensions between IFP and ANC people in both Mashiwane and Nkwale?

MR SHANGE: At Mashiwane, IFP and ANC were in conflict, because IFP supporters from Mashiwane did say that they didn't want ANC members or supporters there in the area.

MS MTANGA: What about the Nkwale area?

MR SHANGE: At that time the Nkwale area was quiet, but when we were attacked at Mashiwane, also people from Nkwale were attacked, ANC members were attacked. That is why we all ran away from Nkwale and from Mashiwane.

MS MTANGA: The bus you attacked, which people, or people from which place were using the bus that you attacked?

MR SHANGE: People from Nkwale and Mashiwane.

MS MTANGA: Is that all the people that were using the bus?

MR SHANGE: Yes, only people from Mashiwane and Nkwale. The bus would leave Wittlespruit and pass Nkwale and Mashiwane will be the last stop.

MS MTANGA: Were there ANC people in Mashiwane, besides your group, besides your group who had gone to hide in the bushes?

MR SHANGE: Yes, there were other people, people who ran away from Mashiwane, who were attacked by IFP

MS MTANGA: Were there ANC people in Nkwale?

MR SHANGE: Yes, there were, they also left Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, the victims in this matter mostly came from Nkwale and they have attended this hearing and they will put it to you that the people from Nkwale were never involved in politics, it was a quiet area.

MR SHANGE: I don't think that's true.

MS MTANGA: Why do you say so?

MR SHANGE: We used to stay in a forest nearby Nkwale. When we were attacked one time we were residing at Nkwale. Other people left Nkwale, who were residents of Nkwale, left Nkwale because they were attacked by others from Nkwale. In other words, the ANC ran away from IFP supporters, and they were from Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, the victims will put it to you that the only incident of violence at Nkwale that they experienced was your bus attack, there's never been political violence in their area. What do you say to this?

MR SHANGE: It is not true, Mr Mtolo was killed in Nkwale and he was a resident of Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: Do you know who killed Mr Mtolo?

MR SHANGE: People who were there. I don't know them personally, but Sonny did see Mr Gumede.

MS MTANGA: Was Mr Gumede in the bus that you attacked?

MR SHANGE: Yes, he was.

MS MTANGA: Why didn't you kill him?

MR SHANGE: He ran away, he escaped.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, in your statement, marked here as Exhibit A, you said the reason that you went to attack the bus was to kill Mr Gumede, is that so?

MR SHANGE: It wasn't the main reason, we were going to attack the bus to scare the IFP supporters who were staying at Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: You further stated in your statement, Exhibit A, that you could not attack Mr Gumede at his house because he harboured IFP people. Did you see these people that he harboured?

MR SHANGE: Yes, in his house there were too many IFP members and when we attacked the bus they also came. They were from his house, or nearby his house.

MS MTANGA: Mr Gumede is going to testify, and he will be testifying to the fact that he lived Nkwale, he never belonged to the IFP, and he never harboured IFP people.

MR SHANGE: That will be a mistake.

MS MTANGA: Further on, in your evidence that you gave here today, you stated that when you walked into the bus just before you attacked them, you warned the women and the children to walk out.

MR SHANGE: That's true.

MS MTANGA: Did you do this on your own initiative or did somebody ask you to let them out?

MR SHANGE: This is what we've decided as a group, the group which was going to attack the bus.

MS MTANGA: Mrs Ndlovu or Ms Ndlovu, Anna Ndlovu was one of the women on the bus and she'll be giving evidence that she is the one who requested you to let them out, to let all women and children out, what do you say to that?

MR SHANGE: That won't be true, we decided and before we fired a single shot we told the women and the children to alight the bus.

MS MTANGA: You also testified that before you fired shots at people you told all the people who were not from Nkwale to leave the bus.

MR SHANGE: Yes, I did say so when all the females had alighted the bus and we let them leave the bus and we didn't shoot at that time.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, one of the people in that bus that you shot at was Douglas Mahaiko Duma, who was neither a resident of Mashiwane nor Nkwale. If you had said this, why wouldn't he have left when somebody had gone out? Why would he have been injured in that bus if you really uttered the words that they must leave, you wanted Nkwale and Mashiwane people?

MR SHANGE: I think he got injured because he was scared maybe to leave when I told them to leave, because the person who left wasn't injured.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Just to clarify this, are you talking about Mr Douglas Mahaiko Duma?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

MR LAX: Okay.

MS MTANGA: He gave a statement, but he's now deceased.

MR LAX: No, no, I see him in the indictment as one of the people who formed part of Count 9. I just wanted to make sure. I didn't hear you correctly in your pronunciation of it. I was being absolutely careful who I was referring to.

MS MTANGA: Okay.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination thank you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Shange, perhaps you can explain something for us, why was this man called Master Shange? Why was his name Master Shange, what was the Master all about?

MR SHANGE: When I first knew him, this is the name I was told. I don't know why he was given this nickname.

MR LAX: Now I want you to look - you don't have it in front of you, so I'll read it for you. Just bear with me one moment. I want you to look at, or I'll read you page 39(a). This is a translation of what appears in your application form at page 50. You say you want to explain the background of what happened and you say that Msome announced a meeting, you say that:

Now this is the important part, the next paragraph. You say:

Now when you gave your evidence you gave us the impression that it was purely by chance that you ended up at the meeting, you denied that you went back to report to anybody about what happened at the meeting. You were specifically asked about a portion of this document, that says you rushed back to report to the others what was going on, and you emphatically denied that you had done that. Do you understand my difficultly? My difficulty - and I'll be absolutely focused for you, is that on the one hand you say here that it was very planned that you were chosen to go to this meeting to find out what was happening and report back. On the other hand, in your evidence before us, you have denied that that was the case. Please explain this to us.

MR SHANGE: I went to that meeting after I came from my work. I wasn't chosen by ANC supporters, there were another two members who were ANC supporters, whom I accompanied

MR LAX: But you see, my problem is this, that the very next paragraph goes on to say:

Now it's very clear, you didn't just happen to come along, you went to a meeting where this was discussed and then the outcome of the meeting is that you were one who was going to attend the meeting. So it's not as if it happened "sommer" by accident, as you would like us to believe. And these are your own words as set out in Zulu in the application form and translated into English, and your lawyer has read it to you and you have confirmed this. Do you understand my difficulty?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you explain anything to us about it?

MR SHANGE: There were two people who were chosen by ANC supporters to go to the meeting and listen to what the chief had to say. I joined these people after work when I met them on the street. When I met these two people, I went with them to the meeting.

MR LAX: I'm going to move on to a different area. What other operations did you go on at the request or instruction of Master Shange?

MR SHANGE: There were no other operations which we did.

MR LAX: So you see you were trained in the forest, you were trained by this man, Master Shange, you were issued with firearms by him.

MR SHANGE: Yes, he taught us. It's not like a training, but he taught us how to use firearms.

MR LAX: So you didn't go on any other missions or operations or any other kind of activity involving defending yourself with firearms or weapons given to you by Master Shange, this is the only thing you ever did, is that correct?

MR SHANGE: No, we didn't do any attacks. Master Shange gave us the guns to protect ourselves, whenever we were attacked to attack back.

MR LAX: Now when did he give you the guns to protect yourselves?

MR SHANGE: He used to give us the guns whenever we were leaving for, whenever we were in the forest and whenever we were leaving the forest to Umgubaba, we will leave the guns with the people who will stay behind at the forest.

MR LAX: You see, you were given these guns at his house at Umgubaba, that's what you say in your statement.

MR SHANGE: Yes, he gave us the guns at his house in Umgubaba. We were going to launch the attack on the following day, which was on Sunday.

MR LAX: But you see you said now that the guns stayed at Nkwale in the forest with your other comrades who were there and that whoever was leaving the place ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the question?

MR LAX: Sorry. You see your evidence just now was that the guns stayed at the forest at Nkwale and that whoever left there to go to Umgubaba, left the guns with the comrades that remained behind. That was your evidence not just two minutes ago.

MR SHANGE: We will leave the guns with other comrades, not just leaving the guns, but on this particular day there was no-one at Nkwale, the comrades were all at Umgubaba. That's where we took the guns.

MR LAX: So if all the comrades left the forest near Nkwale and went to Umgubaba, they would take all the firearms with them?

MR SHANGE: Yes, if there was no-one in the forest then there will be no guns, but if there were other people in the forest then the guns will remain there so that they protect themselves whenever Inkatha attacks them.

MR LAX: But you see, your evidence and the evidence in these statements is that these guns were given to you by Master, specifically to go on this operation, these are not general guns that you had for your general use, these were guns issued for you to specially go and catch Hamilton Gumede, and that's very clear from Exhibit A.

MR WILLS: With respect, Mr Committee Member, I think there has been evidence that right from the attack on the day of the meeting, the attack that he participated in, when the ANC comrades were in the forest, that there was firing from both sides. The inference must be that there were at least some guns in the forest at that stage, and this is the evidence of the applicant.

MR LAX: Ja, the firing - with the greatest of respect, the evidence about the firing from both sides was at Master Shange's house when he was part of the IFP group that was attacking that house and they only fled after that to go to the forest. So that's a different bit of evidence, not relevant to this particular issue. He did speak of other attacks on them while they were in the forest, but there was no evidence of any gunfire in that regard.

MR WILLS: Sorry, my understanding of the evidence, with respect, my recollection was that by the time the IFP group arrived at Shange's house, they had already fled because they had anticipated the attack and the firing occurred from the forest in the direction of those attacking the house.

MR LAX: No, we have completely different recollections of that.

Be that as it may, if I can just refer you to the relevant portion of your statement. If you look at page 4, and I'll read it to you because you don't have it before you:

Now in one of your other statements you then at that point were issued with firearms by master, that's correct isn't it?

MR SHANGE: Yes, Master gave us guns to go to Mashiwane to attack the bus.

MR LAX: And then you left - you say here that:

You say:

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX:

Correct?

MR SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX:

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now earlier when you were asked a question by Ms Mtanga, you said the:

That doesn't appear from your statement at all.

MR SHANGE: I did mention this, that we wanted everyone who was in the bus or who were residents of Nkwale and Mashiwane.

MR LAX: You did say something about, that only IFP people would be on the bus, but your primary aim was to kill Gumede and to catch him, especially because this was straight after Mtolo's funeral and you believe Gumede was responsible for that, isn't that so?

MR SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: And after this operation you went back to Master Shange and you reported what you had done.

MR SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: What did he say to you about shooting the bus, when you reported to him what you had done?

MR SHANGE: He said: "Well done", and we gave him the guns.

MR LAX: One of your other colleagues, in the statement he made to a magistrate, says that Master Shange ordered you to go on this mission.

MR SHANGE: I don't think that's true. He gave us the guns, but he didn't know that we were going to attack the bus before we attacked the bus.

MR LAX: Why was it necessary for Master Shange to decide that you should go back to the forest? If you made the decision to do this thing on your own, why did you have to wait for him to come back from the Transkei, before going back to the forest, before him ordering you to go back to the forest, he was the one who decided how many of you should go back? - and that's clear from your statement Exhibit A.

MR SHANGE: I would like you to repeat your question.

MR LAX: The point I'm making is a very simple one, you waited till Master Shange came back from Mtolo's funeral in the Transkei, only at that point was it decided.

MR SHANGE: We were waiting for the funeral, Mtolo's funeral, because we respected Mtolo.

MR LAX: Didn't Master Shange send you to the forest, the seven of you?

MR SHANGE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LAX: Didn't Master Shange send you to the forest, the seven of you?

MR SHANGE: No, he didn't, we decided that we were not scared and we can do this. He didn't even know that we were going to attack the bus, we decided this on our own.

MR LAX: What about - how many other comrades were there besides the seven of you?

MR SHANGE: You mean at that time? Are you referring to all the comrades or the comrades we were with at the time?

MR LAX: You were part of a group of comrades that were hiding in the forest at Nkwale and hiding at Umgubaba, the group that was being trained by Master Shange, the same group that was being issued with firearms and fed by Master Shange. You speak of a group and you say there were different people from different areas who were part of that group, have I misunderstood you or is that correct?

MR SHANGE: I was one of the comrades who used to be in the forest near Nkwale and also at Umgubaba with other comrades.

MR LAX: Now the question I'm asking you, which I asked you originally was; besides the seven of you that were involved in this incident, how many other comrades were part of that group around Master Shange?

MR SHANGE: There were many of us, I think we were more that 200.

INTERPRETER: He was mentioning that the number that mentioned, 200, includes the people who had escaped from Nkwale and other areas.

MR LAX: That's what I thought he said, but I just, for the benefit of everyone else it helps if it's translated.

So these were people who had been chased away from their areas, forced out, they were refugees?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: And the young people like yourself, mostly?

MR SHANGE: There were others who were older than us.

MR LAX: After you went back to Master Shange, you gave him your weapons.

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: All of you?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: And you're sure about that?

MR SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: And then what did you do?

MR SHANGE: After that I then left Umgubaba and went to Umlazi on the same day, and I left the others at his home. I do not know what happened thereafter.

MR LAX: Where did you find the military uniform from, who gave you a military uniform?

MR SHANGE: No-one gave me that uniform, one belonged to Senzo Shange. Some of my attire was mine. I had bought it from street vendors. That is where I had bought the pants.

MR LAX: What was the purpose of wearing military uniforms?

MR SHANGE: The reason I wore it was because it was warm and I was going out into the forest and I didn't have anything else that was warm enough to wear on that day.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: No questions from me, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR WILLS: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

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MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I call the first applicant, Jabulani Tunene Ncokwane. Could I just request that the microphone be moved.

Jabulani TUNENE NCOKWANE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Ncokwane, you also made an application to the Truth Commission, on the prescribed form and you made this application in Zulu, and it is signed on the 23rd of October 1996, whilst you were still in Durban prison, Westville Medium B, is that correct?

MR NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And this original, well the copy of the original appears on pages 26 to 36 of the bundle, and the translation of that appears from page 18. Do you confirm the contents of this statement, this application?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Mr Wills sorry to be pedantic, the statement doesn't actually appear to be signed, but his confirmation in any event will suffice.

MR WILLS: Can I just - whereabouts were you born, Mr Ncokwane?

MR NCOKWANE: I was born in Twalome.

MR WILLS: And what standard of education do you have?

MR NCOKWANE: I have never been to school.

MR WILLS: When were you born?

MR NCOKWANE: In 1969.

MR WILLS: And have you been employed?

MR NCOKWANE: No.

MR WILLS: You say in your application that you joined the ANC, or you were a member of the ANC, when did you become a member of the ANC?

MR NCOKWANE: 1992, in early 1992.

MR WILLS: And which branch of the ANC were you a member of?

MR NCOKWANE: At the time the branch had not been launched.

MR WILLS: You subsequently became a member of the Umgubaba branch, is that right?

MR NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now why did you become a member of the ANC, what made you choose the ANC as a party?

MR NCOKWANE: I decided to join the ANC because I liked it and it was an organisation that I felt was helpful in fighting for the rights of black people in this country.

MR WILLS: Now you've heard about what the second applicant, Mr Shange, said about your involvement in this attack.

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm that what he said in regard to what you did was correct?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: He says that you actually shot persons from the inside of the bus, do you confirm that?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: Now do you confirm the other aspects - or should I rather say, is there anything that Mr Shange has said about the way this attack occurred or the way it was ordered, that you disagree with?

MR NCOKWANE: No.

MR WILLS: One of the points of contention concerns the role that Master Shange played in this attack. Now ...(intervention)

MR NCOKWANE: I also have a problem with what has been said.

MR WILLS: What ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Shange, please don't talk to the witness when he's giving evidence.

MR WILLS: Let me ask the questions, Mr Ncokwane, I think it will be easier. Did - to your knowledge, did Master Shange order this attack or was it agreed between the persons who were going to perform the attack?

MR NCOKWANE: He never ordered to go launch the attack, we agreed amongst ourselves that we should attack.

MR WILLS: Now you made in a confession to a magistrate in connection with the attack, you indicate that Shange, Master Shange was the person who ordered this attack. You say - I think this has been handed to you, I'm referring to what has been marked in the trial in this matter, Exhibit S, I think if we can made this Exhibit C for our purposes. You say that, and I quote, that Master said to you:

He said he wanted to select six people to do that thing. He said those people were:

And basically you go on that he told you that he wanted you to stop a bus and kill males and ... Now why did you make this statement, why do you say that in this statement?

MR NCOKWANE: The police told me to make such a statement.

MR WILLS: Can you just elaborate, what do you mean by that?

MR NCOKWANE: The police asked me if I knew Master and I said yes, I knew him and they told me that for me to be freed, I should actually say that Master had ordered us to do or to carry out this attack.

MR WILLS: And do you know the names of those policemen?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And who are they?

MR NCOKWANE: I remember van Vuuren.

MR WILLS: Now you were brought before a magistrate and the magistrate, amongst other things, indicated to you that you were free to say anything that you liked and that he was not part of the police. And it seems that the only person who were in the room when you made this statement was the magistrate and the interpreter and yourself, the police were not there. Can you explain why in those circumstances you still made this statement?

MR NCOKWANE: When I entered the room the police were outside and I was intimidated because they had told me that if I change my story they would kill me.

MR WILLS: Now why did you get involved in this attack, what was the purpose in you conducting this attack?

MR NCOKWANE: The reason why - are you asking, do you want the reason why I got involved in the attack?

MR WILLS: Yes, I want to know what was the purpose in you attacking these people on the bus.

MR NCOKWANE: The reason was that we return to our homes where we had been chased out.

MR WILLS: Were you one of the ANC persons who was chased out of that area?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Aren't you from Twalome?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes, but at that time I was staying at Mashiwane at my aunt's place.

MR WILLS: I refer to page 38 of the record and your statement of the political objective to be achieved, you say:

...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wills, page 38 isn't his statement, that's Mr Shange's statement.

MR WILLS: Oh, I'm sorry, I'm mistaking it. If you would just bear with me.

MR LAX: Page 20, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. If you would just bear with me for a moment.

MR LAX: It's also partly contained at the bottom of page 19, under nature and particulars.

MR WILLS: Ja, you say that there was the, that you committed this offence because of the violence in the area, can you just expand on that for the Committee?

MR NCOKWANE: There was violence in the area, but I am not aware of all that happened because I was from Twalome, but when I arrived in the area I discovered that all the comrades had been chased out. I thereafter left the area and went to join them at Umgubaba.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm that during the attack the women were allowed to get off the bus and they weren't attacked?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And do you also confirm that the same happened to people in other areas, from other areas, that they were allowed to get off the bus and escape?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: You say at page 24, that:

Is that correct?

MR NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: When you say you were fighting for the rights of black people who were oppressed, what did you mean?

MR NCOKWANE: We were fighting for the right to return to our area from which we've been chased out by the IFP.

MR WILLS: Now you were arrested some months after the incident, in fact a month after, you were arrested on the 18th of May 1992, is that correct?

MR NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us what happened, or the circumstances surrounding your arrest?

MR NCOKWANE: We were trying to transport these weapons to Twalome. Before we got there we were approached by the police and they pointed a firearm at me. I then surrendered. Thereafter they assaulted me and they confiscated this firearm from me. They asked me where I was going and I informed them that I was on my way home.

MR WILLS: And were you charged? - sorry, there was a shootout on that day, is that correct, between the police and two of your comrades?

MR NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Were you involved in that shootout?

MR NCOKWANE: No, I did not shoot because I am the one who was captured first.

MR WILLS: And you made a statement in regard to that incident, that arrest, is that correct? You made a statement before a magistrate?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: On the 31st of May 1992, at Durban, is that right?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And this statement that you made correct?

MR NCOKWANE: No, it is not.

MR WILLS: Why do you say that?

MR NCOKWANE: I was forced to make that statement, I was forced by the police.

MR WILLS: How were you forced by the police to make this statement?

MR NCOKWANE: They said if I do not admit that we were on our way to rob these people by Master, if I do not confess to that I would be killed like Jay Cele.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that the police were asking you to implicate Master, this I presume is Master Shange, in some conspiracy to rob a store or rob?

MR NCOKWANE: Please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: I'm saying, are you saying that the police wanted you to implicate Master in one, the possession of the firearms and in a plan to rob one of the shops?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And this is what you said in your statement?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now again ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: This is what he said in his statement.

MR WILLS: Yes. I'm referring to - sorry, Mr Chairperson, possibly I must give this an exhibit number. This is a statement made on the 31st day of May, something that I was handed earlier today. I think this can be Exhibit D. It's a statement made before a magistrate in Durban and I battled to get the thing in order, but it was made on the 31st of May. The magistrate was Mr M M Gantshe, or Gantshu. I think it's G-A-N-T-S-H-U, with the interpreter, Themba Nkosi Ntombene. I don't know if you have that statement before you.

MR LAX: This is the one that starts with page 1 handwritten on this 31st day of May?

MR WILLS: That's exactly right, yes. This is Exhibit D.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, Exhibit D.

MR WILLS: I just want to, for the sake of clarity, read a section of this to you. You say:

And then you say:

...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What page are you reading from?

MR WILLS: It's the page, it looks like a 4. It's a handwritten section.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it's the beginning of the statement, is it?

MR WILLS: Yes. Was Master your commander?

MR NCOKWANE: No.

MR WILLS:

Did that in fact happen?

MR NCOKWANE: No.

MR WILLS: Now why did you make this statement? You were before a magistrate and it was only the magistrate, you and the interpreter in the room, surely you could have told the magistrate the truth, that the police, what you say now, that the police had told you to make this statement.

MR NCOKWANE: I was intimidated even by the magistrate, as well as the fact that I knew that I was going to be accompanied by the same police on our way back and I was afraid of them, that they would assault me.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: I've got one question. Mr Ncokwane, you said that your attack on the bus would have helped you return home. I would like to know how would the attack have assisted you or achieved this, how would you have achieved it by attacking the bus and the people inside the bus?

MR NCOKWANE: It would have helped us because if we had been attacked, if we had been able to attack many people, those other people at Mashiwane would have been intimidated by us and they would have fled, so that we also are in a position to return to our area.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You never really attacked these people at their homes, did you?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes, we didn't.

MR LAX: You attacked them at a place, at a bus stop on a road some distance from the area, correct?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it some distance from where they lived? Didn't people come from there to frighten you away from the bus?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: After you had attacked the bus, people ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, Chairperson. Mr Shange, if you talk to that man again I'm going to have you put in another place, do you understand? You do not tell him what to say. Let him talk for himself.

CHAIRPERSON: After you had attacked the bus, didn't a party of people arrive, who made you flee into the sugar-cane?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes, some people did approach. They did not arrive at the scene, at the spot where we were, but we fled before they arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were they coming from?

MR NCOKWANE: They were from Nkwale.

CHAIRPERSON: And were they walking?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: After this incident, what did you do?

MR NCOKWANE: After that incident I returned the gun to Master at Umgubaba and then I left with my brother, Jabulani Cele, to Folweni, where we slept. On the following morning we returned to Umgubaba and that's where we remained.

MR LAX: How long did you remain there for?

MR NCOKWANE: I think about a week.

MR LAX: And then?

MR NCOKWANE: We then left for Ntuzuma because we had heard that Izak Shange had been arrested.

MR LAX: Yes, and then you went to Ntuzuma.

MR NCOKWANE: From Ntuzuma we went back to Umgubaba, and then I suggested that guns were going to be a problem, they would implicate us and therefore I suggested that we take them to Twalome. We all agreed on this. We then took these weapons and transported them to Twalome, but before we got there we were approached by the police, who arrested us.

MR LAX: Now you didn't just have, you didn't have all the firearms that were used in this attack with you?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Where were the other firearms that we used in the attack, if you were so worried about firearms?

MR NCOKWANE: I would not really know, but I think it was only one firearm that was missing, a pump-gun.

MR LAX: In this attack, we have been told there were two AK47's, 3 AK47's, two home-made firearms and a pump-gun, correct?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: How many did the three of you have, that were arrested that day?

MR NCOKWANE: Three guns.

MR LAX: What happened to the pump-gun, what happened to the home-made firearm?

MR NCOKWANE: Those guns were with other members of the group who were not present when we left to transport the rest to Twalome.

MR LAX: Why were you carrying the handgrenades with you?

MR NCOKWANE: I was removing it from the scene, that is from Umgubaba.

MR LAX: Why didn't you just bury them at Umgubaba, instead of going on such a difficult journey, with such a high risk of being caught?

MR NCOKWANE: I just wanted all these weapons transported to Twalome, so that I would remain in Umgubaba without any weapon.

MR LAX: But you see the first thing you did when you saw the police, was bury the weapons. That's the first thing you did. You saw the police, you saw oh, here's trouble, and you buried them straight away.

MR NCOKWANE: That is not true.

MR LAX: Well that's what it says in your statement.

MR NCOKWANE: That is not true.

MR LAX: Maybe I'm making a mistake, let me just double check. This Annexure D, if you look at page 5, I'll read it for you because you don't have it in front of you and in any case you can't read:

etc. The bottom line is you then showed them where you hid the firearm. And on top of that the dog bit you at that point. That's all in this statement here, is that not true?

MR NCOKWANE: It is not true that I buried the weapons. I did hide them in the bush, but I had not buried them.

MR LAX: You didn't know about this decision to kill Gumede?

MR NCOKWANE: Please repeat your question.

MR LAX: From the way you've testified, it appears as if you didn't know about the decision to kill Gumede.

MR NCOKWANE: I knew about it.

MR LAX: Well you haven't spoken about it at all.

MR WILLS: With respect, Mr Chairperson, I've been specifically quick with going through his evidence and I asked him to confirm the evidence of the first applicant, and it is on that basis that I decided to run the evidence. He didn't object to that aspect of the evidence of the first applicant, in fact he confirmed it.

I obviously don't want to stop any questioning, but I just want to make it clear that, with respect, I don't think it can be held against him because he didn't raise, he has in fact confirmed the evidence of the first witness.

MR LAX: Ja, I'll leave the issue, Chairperson. I have no further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The people who were in the bus, the males who were in the bus, were they the specific or actual people who displaced you, who attacked you so that you ran away from your homes? Would you identify them as the people who participated in such attacks?

MR NCOKWANE: No, but what was, what we believed in was that every person who remained in the area was an IFP person, because all of the ANC people had been chased out of the area.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it possible for a person who is not an Inkatha member, to pretend as if he is an Inkatha member, for the sake of remaining in the area?

MR NCOKWANE: It was not easy for that to happen.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, that's the only two questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: There was just one small thing that worried me, you said that, well now you're confirming Mr Shange's evidence, Mr Shange's evidence was that they wanted, he called for the women to come out of the bus, nobody came out of the bus, then fired and hit the top of the bus, then the women came out and with the women came two men. Did you open fire on those two men as well?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now my question is this; why didn't you make sure they weren't from Nkwale and Mashiwane before you shot them?

MR NCOKWANE: Sorry?

MR LAX: You said, and Mr Shange made it very clear, you didn't want to kill anyone not from the area.

MR NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: So why didn't you ask those people before you shot them, where they were from? You were pointing firearms at them, you could have spoken to them, you could have said: "Where are you from, what area are you from"?

MR NCOKWANE: We had already said that those people who are not resident in these two areas should alight and this person from Adams then alighted and he escaped.

MR LAX: You see, the evidence of Mr Shange was very clear, the man from Adams got out of the bus after you shot those two men. He came out with the first group of women before anything was said about people from other areas. That's his evidence.

The man from Adams came out after the women and after you'd shot those two men, and in response, according to Mr Shange's evidence, which you have confirmed to being requested that other people come out. You're putting it the other way, you're saying you asked first. Do you understand the difficulty?

MR NCOKWANE: Yes, I beg your pardon about that.

MR LAX: Well what is the position, what are you sorry about?

MR NCOKWANE: Mr Shange ordered that the women should alight, they didn't do so and then he fired on top of the bus and then the women started screaming and they then alighted the bus. Then they alighted. Whilst they were doing so two men also alighted and we shot at those men. Thereafter he said those people who were not resident at either Nkwale or Mashiwane should also alight. That is when that person from Adams also left the bus.

MR LAX: Well you see my original question stands then, and your answer you gave me falls away. Why did you shoot those people if it was not your intention to shoot people who were not from Nkwale? You didn't know where these people were from, you didn't know who they were, you just opened fire on them.

MR NCOKWANE: We realised that they must be involved because they were fleeing. Their act of alighting with the women was a sign that they were fleeing. They wouldn't have done so if they were not from these two areas.

MR LAX: But everybody wanted to flee, wouldn't you want to flee, wherever you were from?

MR NCOKWANE: And order had already been issued that the women should alight.

MR LAX: Ja, you're not answering my question. I'll leave it, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one follow-up, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Ncokwane, it's still based on the area on which I was asking you insofar as identifying your targets. You were saying you didn't know whether these men who were in the bus were the ones who actually shot at you, but you attacked them because they remained behind, obviously they are IFP members. My question is, the women also stayed behind and obviously they were IFP members or supporters of the IFP, why were they not attacked?

MR NCOKWANE: That is because they were not involved in attacking us, we had never witnessed any woman attacking us.

MR SIBANYONI: So the attack was directed at the people who attacked you and forced you to leave the area?

MR NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR WILLS: No questions arising, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, before I call the next witness, it appears just from my looking and checking on the volume of the translation, as apposed to the original, that there may be a similar problem in relation to this translation, that there was in relation to the first witness. I'm not sure if that is the case because obviously I'm unable to speak Zulu. I specifically refer to page 10 and 11 of the bundle, it seems to me that - and in fact page 13, it seems to me that the amount of writing in Zulu exceeds by far that as provided in the translation under the same questions. I'd just like to seek possibly confirmation whether or not this is in fact an accurate translation.

If one looks at 10(b) on page 13 and compares it with 10(b) on page 4, the translated version, it seems to me that it may, but there's a lot more writing there than there is in the English version. I just want to avoid the problem where we don't have an accurate translation.

MR LAX: Ms Translator, have you cast your eye at this thing at all?

INTERPRETER: That is what I'm doing right now.

MR LAX: Okay. Are you able to in any way confirm what Mr Wills' fear is?

INTERPRETER: Yes, I think there may be some facts or some things that have been left out in the English translation. It does appear so.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, Mr Wills, if you are happy with that after consulting with your client, in order to expedite matters, instead of the interpreters writing it down, if your client can read his Zulu version and at the same time the interpreters follow him in giving the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: He can't read, he's never been to school.

MR SIBANYONI: I mean the next applicant. I thought Mr Wills was talking about the next applicant.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, obviously I don't want to delay proceedings, but I really would like a translation of this done before I'm in a position to proceed. I think that I'd be amiss in my obligations if I didn't have that.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be available tomorrow morning?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, if I could just look at my diary and I'll see, I think I am. Mr Chairperson, I think I can make myself available.

CHAIRPERSON: Well wouldn't it be easier then, it is now seven minutes to four, to allow you to have the rest of this afternoon to make arrangements in one way or another to get it translated, with the assistance of those of your clients who can read?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And we start tomorrow morning with this.

MR WILLS: I'd appreciate that, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Nine thirty tomorrow morning. Right, we'll adjourn now to enable the further translation to be done, if necessary till nine thirty tomorrow morning.

MR WILLS: Thank you.