CHAIRPERSON: For the record it is the continuation of the amnesty application of Mr Jimmy Nokawusana and four others. The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the parties are represented as also indicated previously. It is Thursday the 29th April 1999 and the cross-examination Nokawusana will continue this morning.

Mr Nokawusana I remind you that you are still under oath. Do you understand?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Mr Nokawusana, you made a statement to one of our investigators, Jabu, that is part of the bundle of documents. I just want to know, do you confirm the contents of that statement?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes I do confirm that.

MS PATEL: Okay. If I could briefly take you through certain sections of that statement? You stated that after the meeting where the decision was taken that farmers should be attacked, well not necessarily, that farmers should be forced to leave the farms and that weapons should be taken from them, you state that:

Sorry Honourable Chairperson, page 28 of the bundle, paragraph 4.

MR NOKAWUSANA: This is this the incident after the meeting that was held at the soccer ground after the attempted meeting at the hall where people were injured at the church hall, this is the incident after the meeting that took place at the soccer ground.

MS PATEL: Which farmer's place was this, is it separate to the other five incidents that you have testified to or does it relate to that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: This is the farm that was just across the road. It's called Madameni, it's Mr Madameni's farm. He was a farmer who was producing cabbages. He was the first one that we confronted, there were also ladies or girls when we went to his place.

MS PATEL: And you're not applying for amnesty for this incident?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I did not even talk about it to my legal representative reason being that I was never charged for this incident or arrested.

MS PATEL: Okay thank you.

MR NOKAWUSANA: In the next paragraph you say that you went to the farm where the owner was known to us as Goud, ja I would imagine it's Goud, is that Mr Hansel's farm that you referred to there?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay in your statement to the investigator, there you stated that you assaulted him with open hands. Is that correct?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes I was assaulting him with open hands.

MS PATEL: Yesterday in your evidence to us you went further, you said you hit him with a fist and you even kicked him, is that also correct?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I was using everything, I was hitting him by all means because I wanted to get something from him, but I remember most of the time I was assaulting him with open hands but though I did hit him with a fist at some stage.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us which of your other co-applicants was present at Mr Hansel's farm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes I can tell you.

MS PATEL: Okay, who?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Randele Bhayi was present.

MS PATEL: Alright and who else?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Msianda Ntonga was also present.

MS PATEL: Okay please carry on, who else?

MR NOKAWUSANA: If I am not sure as to Bonagele Bhayi, I'm not sure if he was present.

MS PATEL: Okay and who else?

MR NOKAWUSANA: There were other people but those were the only people that I noticed.

MS PATEL: Okay can you tell us what Randele Bhayi did at Mr Hansel's farm that evening?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I do not know, I did notice of who did this and that because we were all looking for something, a common thing when we went there.

MS PATEL: But weren't you all together with Mr Hansel assaulting him, after all he was the person who was going to tell you where the weapons were?

MR NOKAWUSANA: He was not willing to tell us where the weapons were.

MS PATEL: Was Mr Randele Bhayi not present in the room when Mr Hansel was being assaulted by you?

MR NOKAWUSANA: He was present.

MS PATEL: Did he participate in the assault on Mr Hansel?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, he also assaulted him.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us how from what you saw?

MR NOKAWUSANA: He was kicking him, we were also assaulting him, there was a lot of us. I did not take a serious note what happened after kicking him because I was also taking part.

MS PATEL: Okay and Mr Ntonga, can you tell us whether he was in the room at the time?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes he was present.

MS PATEL: Did he also participate in the assault on Mr Hansel?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I cannot be that certain but they were also among us moving around as we were looking for this firearm but he was also there standing in front of him and I was not there to check who was assaulting because I was also busy and I was hitting him as we were having a common goal of getting this firearm.

MS PATEL: Now Mr Nokawusana, that's not good enough, you were present in the room when Mr Hansel was being assaulted. We weren't there, you were there, you should be able to tell us who did what?

CHAIRPERSON: No but Ms Patel, with respect, he tells you he can't, what else do you want from him?

MS PATEL: I'll leave it for argument Honourable Chairperson.

You also state in your statement to the investigator that you left Mr Hansel without injury. Surely that's not right? Do you want to withdraw that part of the statement?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I said we had assaulted him and we had tied him and we made him to lie on his back and then we left him there.

MS PATEL: Did you tie him up as well?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Who tied him up?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I also took part, assisting the others.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us what stage you tied him up or was that just before you left?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes we tied him before we left.

MS PATEL: Okay. Did anyone try to shoot Mr Hansel?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, no one attempted to do that.

MS PATEL: Are you absolutely certain about that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes I'm certain, we did not attempt to shoot him instead he was showing us how to operate that firearm.

MS PATEL: Really now, Mr Nokawusana, you assault the man and then he willingly shows you how to use the firearm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct because we had tied him and he was talking and he was showing us how to operate the firearm though he was tied up.

MS PATEL: Mr Hansel's son is present here today, Des Hansel, he says that his father told him after the incident that somebody tried to shoot but the bullet went over his head and that there was a mark on the wall that he himself had seen. What do you say to that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We did not attempt to shoot him, it was during the time when we were trying to make sure that this is working, the firearm was working. As we were trying to test the firearm, the shot went to the wall but it was not aimed at him.

MS PATEL: But if he was trying to - or not trying to, if he was showing you how to use the firearm, why did you still need to test it?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We wanted to be sure that he was not telling us a lie or fooling us.

MS PATEL: So why did you shoot in that direction, why did you not go out of the house and test it?

MR NOKAWUSANA: That did not occur to us to go outside.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us who tested the firearm please?

MR NOKAWUSANA: It was in Mr Ntonga's hands.

MS PATEL: Okay. After you took the firearm, did all the people who came to Mr Hansel's house did you all leave together?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and you know of course that many items were taken from Mr Hansel's house, did you not see any of these items in the possession of your co-perpetrators that evening?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No I did not see anything except for the gun and the military uniform that was taken.

MS PATEL: Okay. Who cut the telephone wires to Mr Hansel's property?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I'm the one who cut the telephone wires.

MS PATEL: Okay and you had planned to do this before you got there?

MS PATEL: Yes that was planned in advance that we have to cut the telephone wires so as to prevent him to phone the police.

MS PATEL: Okay. What else was planned in advance, Sir, to cut the telephone wires, what else did you decide before you got there. Please tell us?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We did not plan anything else except for the cutting of the telephone wires and the fact that we'd go there and get this firearm and we'd tell him to leave the farm and go to stay in town.

MS PATEL: But according to your evidence Mr Hansel was a good man. You bought your milk from him, he even visited certain people in your area. Why did you want him to leave?

MR NOKAWUSANA: The reason was he was one of the farmers in our neighbourhood.

MS PATEL: I put it to you, Sir, in respect of Mr Hansel you had no political motive when you went there. The motive was pure robbery, criminal act of robbery and assault.

MR NOKAWUSANA: That is not true.

MS PATEL: Okay let's move on to Mr Cobus, the incident at Mr Cobus' farm.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel, before you go on to another incident. Just a bit about Mr Hansel, yesterday Mr Nokawusana, when you testified you said one of the problems you had with the farmers, they were informing on you, they would tell the police whenever you hold meetings. Was Mr Hansel one of those farmers who would tell the police that you had a meeting?

MR NOKAWUSANA: All the farmers who were near, all the farmers were regarded as towing the same line.

ADV SANDI: Yes but you don't know if Mr Hansel did in fact telephone the police to say that comrades have a meeting, you don't know that as a matter of fact, you just believe it?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, I did not know for certain but all the farmers were regarded as the people who were informing the police and other farmers were doing that so all the farmers were the same.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Sir.

Let's move on to the incident with Mr Cobus. In your statement to the investigator, is Mr Cobus you referred to as Mr Erickie?

Sorry Honourable Chairperson, page 28 of the bundle once again, paragraph 6.

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes Cobus is Erickie.

MS PATEL: Did you once again cut his telephone wires?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, I did that.

MS PATEL: Okay you stated yesterday that you heard that he was shot, did you not see that he was shot?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No I did not see that.

MS PATEL: Why not, where were you at the time that he was shot?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We were surrounding his house trying to

get in, we were pelting stones because we wanted to get inside his house.

MS PATEL: Okay. But do you know if Mr Cobus had fired on any of your group that was present there that night?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, he shot directing at us as we were arriving or coming in.

MS PATEL: Do didn't say that in your evidence in chief yesterday, Sir, you didn't tell us that Mr Cobus had shot at you? What is your comment on that, did you forget to tell us or what is the position?

MR NOKAWUSANA: There was no question enquiring about that, no one asked me about it.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel may I just come in here? I just need clarity on a matter. I don't understand, you've just said that you did not see who shot Mr Cobus is that right?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: But in the statement you say that Mr Ntonga shot at the farmer?

MR NOKAWUSANA: The farmer that was shot by Mr Ntonga, is Mr Pretorius.

ADV BOSMAN: But in your statement paragraph 5, there you deal with:

and then you proceed there and to say:

MR NOKAWUSANA: It could be that I am confusing the incident, I have forgotten because I did the statement some time ago and these things are no longer clear on my mind because they took place some time ago.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Ms Patel, you may proceed.

MS PATEL: Thank you. There was no evidence at the trial that Mr Cobus had fired on you, that is correct isn't it, there was no evidence that Mr Cobus had fired a shot at you or your group, when I say you I mean your group?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I cannot remember that also because that took place in 1990 or '92, I cannot remember what we were testifying. I cannot remember exactly what was being said in court.

ADV SANDI: Tell me Ms Patel are you talking about Mr Cobus?

MS PATEL: Yes Honourable Committee Member.

ADV SANDI: Well if you look at the judgement at page 2, the court in their summary of the evidence they say:

MS PATEL: Well there's no clear evidence though that he shot at them, a spirited resistance might mean that he got into his house and managed to lock himself in the house without having shot at them. I say that also given the fact that if one reads the judgement and if one looks at the information that we have on Mr Cobus, he was blind in the one eye, he had lost the use of the one eye and he was shot in the face and he was in fact shot in the other eye, the good eye.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but have you got the evidence?

MS PATEL: No, I don't have the copy of the - I don't have the transcript of the trial record, all I have is the judgement and that's what I'm going on.

CHAIRPERSON: I see so you can't put it as a matter of fact towards the applicant there was no evidence?

MS PATEL: No but he says he can't remember either.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS PATEL: Where was I, okay. Did you know that Mr Cobus was alone on the farm that evening?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We did not know that, that is the reason for us to go into the storeroom, that is why we had to go to his employees and enquire about that, we did not know for sure that he was alone.

MS PATEL: Now Mr Nokawusana, are you not confusing the incidents now? The incident where you went to the employees was that of Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti or are you saying now that you went to the employees of Mr Cobus as well?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No I am not confusing the incidents. We got the pliers from his employees, the one, the pliers that was used to cut the telephone wire.

MS PATEL: And was this on the same evening?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Did you tell Mr Cobus that you want him to leave the farm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We could not meet with him because as we were knocking at the door we told him that we were his visitors and he said we were going to shoot him so he decided to shoot at us, we did not get a chance of getting inside and talk to him.

MS PATEL: So you say now that you knocked at the door and that you told him that you were his visitors, he then shot at you?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: And from where did he shoot, was the door open, through the window, or what?

MR NOKAWUSANA: He shot through the window.

MS PATEL: Okay, how many times did he shoot, can you recall?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I heard a bullet ringing, I ran away and after that a number of bullets rang and I did not count that.

MS PATEL: So are you saying that after Mr Cobus shot at you, you ran away and all that you heard after that were shots firing

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes he shot and I ran away and the others ran away trying to be at the right spot to escape the bullets, to escape from the bullets.

MS PATEL: Alright, did you see what happened after that, or made you run away subsequent to the first shot being fired?

MR NOKAWUSANA: After we ran away, we went to the front side and we saw a window and we got in through that window and we went straight to the door that was leading to the kitchen.

MS PATEL: So what happened after you got into the house?

MR NOKAWUSANA: When we got into the house we realised that there was a passage that was leading to the bedroom where he was in and there was a locked burglar door that was right on this passage so that made it difficult for us to get through to him.

MS PATEL: Okay what happened then?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We found a rope that was in a small cupboard in the house. We tied it on that burglar as we were trying to pull that burglar door and he was shooting also and others surrounding the house pelting the house with stones trying to disturb him so that he couldn't shoot inside and shoot the people who were trying to pull the rope, the burglar door with the rope.

MS PATEL: Alright, did you manager to open the burglar door?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We tried but we were not successful.

MS PATEL: And what happened after that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: there was a gas stove, a gas cylinder that was next to the door, we took them and we pointed them to the window of that room where he was and we set it alight and we put papers in and the flames got inside that room because we knew that the fire and the smoke would force him out of the room.

MS PATEL: So was the room alight, you set the room alight that he was in?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We set the gas cylinder alight and we pointed it to the window where he was in, then we lit a stick of match and the gas got inside the window and there was smoke and it became dark in that particular room.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, what do you mean you said it became dark in the room, were the lights on in that room, is that what you mean and that they were then switched off or what?

MR NOKAWUSANA: The smoke inside the room made it darker.

MS PATEL: Oh, okay, and then what happened?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We realised that we could not get inside. We thought that the house was burning and we ran away.

MS PATEL: Alright, can you tell me, so which of your co-applicants here today were present with you at Mr Cobus' farm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: All of us were present.

MS PATEL: Alright, can you recall what each of your other co-applicants did at Mr Cobus' farm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I cannot remember.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can I now take you to the incident of Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti? Tell me, Sir, you state ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel, before you go onto the next incident, I see that from the summary of evidence, the court judgement, page no. 2, you say there Mr Cobus died a week later. Have you been able to lay your hands on a post-mortem report? What does it say?

MS PATEL: In fact the evidence at the trial was that, if one reads further in the judgement Honourable Committee member that he died of a heart attack and on that basis I think the accused were only found guilty of attempted murder because of the question of ...(indistinct) event.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you.

MS PATEL: You say that you went to Mr Senti's house first because you wanted to know where the farmer's house was, where Mr Pretorius' house was, is that correct?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes we wanted to know the route to the house, the farmer's house and we also wanted to know whether the farmer was in or not.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you recall when Mr Ntonga shot Mr Senti, was the door still open or closed at the time?

MR NOKAWUSANA: The door was closed. He had just peeped through the door and he closed the door as he was afraid and saying that he was not going to open for us. As he was closing the door, a shot was fired.

MS PATEL: Right. Maybe I must raise that with Mr Ntonga as to why he shot him. And you say that after that, your intention in going to Mr Pretorius was to get help for Mr Senti who was now being shot by Mr Ntonga?

CHAIRPERSON: No, wasn't he saying that they wanted to lure Mr Pretorius out of the house to get Senti's wife to call him out and come and assist because her husband was injured? Wasn't it part of his plan to lure him outside?

MS PATEL: Well, maybe we're at cross-purposes Honourable Chairperson, I understood his evidence to mean that they were going to the farmer to get him now to help Mr Senti to be taken to the hospital, he specifically mentioned being taken to the hospital. If that wasn't his intention then surely that part of his evidence would not - he wouldn't have mentioned the fact of getting Mr Pretorius to take Mr Senti to the hospital?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well that's not my recollection of his evidence. I'm under the impression that they were not sure where the farmhouse as situated, they went to the workers' quarters, they tried to persuade Mr Senti to open the door, he refused, his wife was trying to persuade him as well to open because these people were saying they were comrades, Senti was insisting not to open, subsequently a shot was fired, he was hit in the hand, he was injured and the wife was taken to the farmer's house to lure him outside on the pretext that he's got to assist the husband who was injured?

MR KINCAID: Mr Chairman, if I may intervene here, my notes with the utmost respect corroborate what Ms Patel's question was but the intention was to request that this Mr Senti be taken to hospital.

ADV SANDI: But clearly, if you take that in the context of the entire evidence, that was not the reason why they had gone to the farmer's house, this was just a trick to get him out of the house, to say that look, a labourer here has got to be taken to a hospital, can you please come out?

MR KINCAID: With respect, I fully agree with your interpretation but the witness said to take him to hospital, that's my note, that's what I wanted to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, just carry on, I just don't want us to hair split, I also don't want us to have witnesses to repeat their evidence which doesn't assist us at all, I would prefer it if you were to focus on things which will assist us. Let's get to the merits of the application.

MS PATEL: Alright but before I move on to that I might just state that my interpretation of his evidence is in fact also corroborated by his statement to our investigator on page 28. He states that:

Sorry Honourable Chairperson, just grant me a moment to check my notes?

You stated in your evidence yesterday that Mr Senti's house went with you willingly. However the evidence at the trial was that Mr Senti's wife was compelled by your group to go with her to Mr Pretorius' farm house, what is your comment on that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We did not force her, we explained to him that he must give us his wife to take us to Mr Pretorius so that we can ask Mr Pretorius to take the men to the hospital.

MS PATEL: Okay. For the record Honourable Chairperson, the evidence relating to the wife being compelled is on page 2 of the judgement.

Okay, if your intention was to go Mr Pretorius and get him to help you, why was he then shot?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Who? Why was he shot? Who?

MS PATEL: Why was Mr Pretorius shot if your intention was to go there and get help, for him to help you why did you shoot him or why did Mr Ntonga shoot him?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I do not have any idea, perhaps he got a fright when he saw Mr Pretorius coming.

MS PATEL: Alright, then finally I want to move on to the Marulia incident, that's the incident in which the old lady was shot. You stated that you all went there in a Combi, I just want to know did you all leave together in that same Combi?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes a lot of us were in that Combi.

MS PATEL: No, when you left, when you left Mrs Marulia's farm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, the others were left behind, they scattered around running away in the open veld there.

MS PATEL: Okay you didn't see any of the people who were with you take any goods?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I just saw the firearms, I only saw the firearms.

MS PATEL: Sorry, which firearms are you referring to now?

MR NOKAWUSANA: There were two rifles that we found there.

MS PATEL: Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if I could just check my notes on that point, I don't believe that they found any firearms on that farm but I may be mistaken.

ADV SANDI: Are you talking about the attack on the Marulia's farm? I think it does, according to my notes, I don't know about other items, what I recall are the two revolvers and the bullets.

MS PATEL: Thank you that helps, that jogs my memory, thank you very much.

You were the person who shot at Mrs Marulia, not so?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Did you not know - okay, you state that you shot at the door, you didn't know that it was an old woman there?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, I did not know what type of a person was living there.

MS PATEL: Okay, when you got to Mrs Marulia's farm did you or any of your other group tell her that you wanted her to leave the farm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, we could not meet with her.

MS PATEL: Okay, you stated yesterday in your evidence that during the time that these offences were committed that the political parties were still banned at that time?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay, you as a supporter of the ANC, can you recall whether Mandela was released during that time or not?

MR NOKAWUSANA: He as not yet released in 1989.

MS PATEL: No, these incidents took place at the beginning of 1990 and that is when all these offences took place. Mr Mandela was in fact released during that time, in February of 1990 and you still proceeded to commit further offences after he was released?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I just want to rectify something, the boycott started in 1989.

MS PATEL: Okay, I just want to put to you also that from the evidence that was led at the trial given that your intentions were to go to the farms to tell people to leave, the evidence at the trial was in fact that nobody was invited to leave their farms?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I won't know about that because it was not our task to go on telling the people but that happened to be a decision that was reached at a meeting that was at a soccer ground.

MS PATEL: No Sir, I refer to people being told to leave during the incidents that you have testified to, not a previous decision where you say notices were sent to people to leave their farms?

MR NOKAWUSANA: That is what I know, we decided that they should be told.

MS PATEL: Finally I just want to put it to you, Sir, that in respect of all these incidents that you have testified to that you have not acted with a political motive?

MR NOKAWUSANA: That is not correct.

MS PATEL: Okay, just finally Mr Nokawusana, before you were convicted of these offences, were you ever convicted for anything else that involved a crime of dishonesty?

CHAIRPERSON: What's the relevance of that Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: With respect Honourable Chairperson, it is going to be my argument at the end of the day that the applicant hasn't acted with a political motive, that he acted with criminal intent?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that seems to be your case, yes?

MS PATEL: And not only he but other who were with him had criminal records before and my questioning regarding his previous criminal conduct is to show in fact that there might possibly have been but I don't have any evidence as to his SAP69 prior to - but if you feel that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not going to allow you to ask that question.

MS PATEL: Okay thank you then that's the end.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else?

MS PATEL: No, that's is Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kincaid, before you start you client has referred to many, many incidents, he has testified about a number of attacks, he did assist us as a panel to have an idea about the specific offences that the amnesty application relate to. I don't know if you have applied your mind to that whether you're in a position to indicate to us but it will certainly assist us to deal with the evidence on this whole range of incidents and actions taken by your client and I assume some of your other clients so if you are in a position to reindicate to us at this early stage I would invite you to consider doing that because it would certainly assist us. If not then it might be helpful for you to consider that and to refer to that, submit it to us as soon as you are in a position to do so?

MR KINCAID: Mr Chairman, I'm not quite sure whether I understand what the terms of your invitation are at the moment. Are you wishing me to canvass the merits of the individual incidents again?

CHAIRPERSON: No, normally an amnesty applicant would indicate in either the application form or in some other manner the specific offences for which the amnesty being applied for. In that case it assists in focusing the evidence that is being presented and it assists the panel also in following the relevance of evidence and it assists us in regulating the proceedings so we don't seem to have a clear list of offences that the applicant is applying for. We know there are these five incidents, we're not sure, in some cases he says that he was not involved in certain actions, he didn't do this but somebody else might have done it so we're not sure to what extent the applicant is actually applying for a particular offence that was committed in a particular incident, to what extent that might form part of his amnesty application. If somebody was killed and he says for argument sake that "I didn't shoot" or "I don't know what happened" it's not clear how relevant the killing is to his application, whether he's in fact applying for that offence or not. If he's not applying for the offence then we know how to sift through the evidence and that is the kind of difficulty that we are trying to sort of convey from our perspective at this stage, certainly might assist us.

So what I'm saying is I'm not sure whether you have already formulated a list of offences which you would submit you are asking for amnesty in respect of each one of those incidents. It might be possession of a firearm, it might be attempted murder, it might be robbery, it might be a murder, arson, perhaps more composite crimes like public violence or whatever it might be so, you know it's from that kind of perspective that we might raise it with you at this early stage.

MR KINCAID: I appreciate that Mr Chairperson, it appears to have been an application for general amnesty based on their convictions in the Supreme Court. I realise that some of the offences for which they were charged, not all the applicants were found guilty, some of them were and some of them not. Maybe I do need a sit down and be more specific in what is actually being applied for. To do that I'd appreciate a little bit of time. I may have misunderstood the whole purpose of this application, by having regard to the Provisions of Section 20 of the Act, I was of the view, rightly or wrongly, that it's not what was committed but it was with what purpose, with what objective, with what motive, these acts were committed, that is of importance and that is why through the applicant I have attempted to establish the conflict in the community in which he lived in and why it was decided to attack the particular victims which they did. So I didn't, when I led the applicant, I didn't really deal with the merits of the application, I kind of accepted the fact that they were guilty of the acts with which they were charged and rightly convicted and that the convictions aren't being attacked. What we have attempted to show the Committee is the reason why we committed those acts and what motivated us and what the purpose was. So that's why it was left as a general broad application but if you're inviting me to be more specific then I see the merits of doing so, I would just appreciate some time with which to apply my mind to that aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, in fact we did not actually - it would have been good if you had but we thought that you would probably not have applied your mind completely to that at this state which often is something that happens in argument but if your application, if this applicant's application annexed to the offences in respect of which he had been convicted in the criminal trial then of course that is an indication of the ambit of the application at this stage but if you can specify further than that or more closely then of course it would assist but in any case, I mean, the other submissions that you've made, you know, what motivated your clients and the background, obviously those are very, very relevant issues for our purposes. Don't see it as a sort of a criticism of what has happened here, it's just that we want to help to focus the process and we thought that if we have some clear indication as to the particular offences that your client to be asking amnesty for then it will assist us so if it is only those that he was convicted for then of course, you know, it's clear but if you want to specify it further it will assist.

MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I think in the case of this particular applicant it is most definitely those offences of which he was convicted. I know in his statement to the investigator, Mr Jabu, he makes mention of a criminal act, the act of burning the garage of a farmer known as Madameni. No amnesty is being sought for that, he wasn't as he correctly points out, he wasn't charged or convicted of that offence. Say for the purpose of this application and for the purpose of this applicant if we can just accept, if the Committee can just accept that it is amnesty sought for the offences for which he was convicted of and which I've set out in the judgement, you know, annexure at ...[intervention]

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may be of assistance to my learned colleague, on page 12 of the bundle the offences for which this applicant is being found guilty and the sentences received for those defences are in fact set out.

MR KINCAID: That is the reference I was looking for Mr Chairperson, thank you Ms Patel.

CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you very much and Ms Patel as well, yes it does focus the enquiry slightly more. My colleague just reminds me that it might be a good idea when you do address at the end of the proceedings perhaps to prepare in respect of each one of your clients a specific list of offences. That would assist.

MR KINCAID: I shall do so, Mr Chairman. Have you got re-examination Mr Kincaid?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Jimmy, you were asked by the evidence leader or more by way of comment she commented that none of your victims, none of the farmers who you attacked were in fact invited or told that they should leave their farms. Did you really expect them, Jimmy, to abandon their farms just by mere verbal invitation? Did you really think that that was going to happen or did you appreciate that it was only going to be through violence and intimidation that you were ever going to persuade anyone to abandon their property?

ADV BOSMAN: Isn't that perhaps a bit too much of a leading question?

MR KINCAID: Let me rephrase that. The comment was made, Jimmy, that no verbal invitation was every extended to the victims of your attacks. Do you confirm that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, what I'm saying is they were told because it was also announced over the radio that they were saying that they were not going to leave their farms.

MR KINCAID: So when you visited the farmers, Mr Hansel, Mr Cobus and Mr Pretorius, Ms Marulia, did you know that they were not going to be leaving their farms, that to leave their farms verbal persuasion wasn't going to be enough?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, we knew that they were not going to leave. We wanted to intimidate them to leave or threaten them so that they can leave their farms.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy, when you were questioned by the legal representative for Mrs Clackers, you mentioned that whilst you were in the roadblock formation, when you and your colleagues were manning roadblocks, ad hoc decisions were taken at those roadblocks. Do you confirm that part of your testimony?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes I do confirm that.

MR KINCAID: These ad hoc decisions, Jimmy, were they just decisions taken at roadblocks or was the decision to attack the farmers also an ad hoc decision?

MR NOKAWUSANA: These decisions were taken in a meeting on a soccer ground, that's where we took these decisions.

MR KINCAID: So the two decisions, the two meetings held subsequent or consequent on the shooting at Matamela Hall decided that the farmers were to be targeted, that was not an ad hoc decision taken by you or your applicants at a roadblock?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, those decisions were concluded on the soccer field, it was not only ourselves who took those decisions.

MR KINCAID: And were there any leadership figures at that meeting? The two meetings on the soccer field?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes there were leaders, people like Umfana Green and Michael Manele, Randele Manele.

MR KINCAID: These were community leaders as you're testified earlier, the two that you mentioned were community leaders?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: You've been asked to confirm, Jimmy, the contents of the statement you made to the TRC investigator, Mr Jabu, in July of last year. I similarly ask you whether you contents of the affidavit you deposed to in April of this year. Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit, Jimmy?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes I confirm that.

MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kincaid, does that conclude the evidence of this applicant?

MR KINCAID: It does, thank you.

MSIANDA NTONGA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR KINCAID: Mr Chairperson, mindful of what you addressed to me earlier as to the specifics of the amnesty application, at page 30 of the bundle, the offences for which he was convicted and sentenced appear.

Msianda, are you comfortable if I call you by your first name?

MR NTONGA: Yes I'm comfortable.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy has testified before this Committee and he has set out the circumstances and the context in which life was lived in Stutterheim from the period 1985 to the period of the commission of these offences in 1990. Do you agree with Jimmy's assessment of this situation in Stutterheim covering that time period?

MR NTONGA: Yes, it is like Jimmy said.

MR KINCAID: How old are you now, Mr Ntonga, Msianda, how old are you now?

MR NTONGA: I'm 26 years old.

MR KINCAID: At the time of the commission of these offences you were still a teenager, you were still a young man is that correct?

MR NTONGA: That is correct.

MR KINCAID: And Jimmy has described how it was that the youth of the Stutterheim communities were at the forefront of the violent struggle with the security forces. Were you likewise involved in that struggle?

MR NTONGA: That is correct.

MR KINCAID: Were you a member of a political organisation?

MR NTONGA: I was not a member, I was a supporter of the ANC.

MR KINCAID: Now Jimmy described how you attended a meeting in the church hall, the Matamela church hall in the Kabosi Township. Were you at the hall on that particular day when the security forces came and raided the hall?

MR NTONGA: Yes I was present at the hall.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy described how people were shot and teargassed and how they were violently dispersed. What kind of emotions did that incident instil in you, how did you react to that incident?

MR NTONGA: That was a painful event because the teargas that was in that hall went in front of my home. Even though I was still young at that time it also effected me emotionally.

MR KINCAID: In what way?

MR NTONGA: Because I realised that we were not safe and even my family was not safe.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy then testified to two meetings which were held consequently upon the shooting of that church hall, they were held on a soccer field, Jimmy says. Do you know anything of those meetings?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is so, I do have a knowledge about the meetings.

MR KINCAID: Did you attend there Msianda, did you attend those meetings?

MR NTONGA: That is correct, I was present.

MR KINCAID: And can you confirm or tell the Committee what broadly speaking the decision of the meeting was?

MR NTONGA: The decision that was taken in those meetings was that there were going to be letters that would be sent to the farmers around our community to tell them that they should leave their places and look for other places in town and the youth as we realised that we were not safe, we were told to look for weapons so that we can defend the people in the community.

MR KINCAID: Is that how it came to be that you involved yourself in the incidents starting off with the attack on Mr Hansel, did you go to Mr Hansel's home and did you attack him there?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Why did you decide that it was right, why did you align yourself, why did you associate yourself with this group that went to attack Mr Hansel?

MR NTONGA: At that time when you were at my age you were supposed to involve yourself or associate yourself because if you did not do that you'd be seen as a person who was not doing something that was right so I associated myself because of what I saw, what was done by the police to our community at the time, the police together with the soldiers, that is why I decided to take part in that.

MR KINCAID: And what did you do, did you cause any injury or in any way assault Mr Hansel? What was your act of involvement in the attack on his home and on him?

MR NTONGA: The role that I took was to test the firearm on a photo that was hanging on the wall, I wanted to test whether the firearm was working properly. I tested that firearm and I found that it was operating. My other role before he showed us the firearm he didn't want to show us that, I also hit him, I took part in hitting him and then he showed us the firearm. I then stopped hitting him and I tested the firearm in his house, inside his house. That's the role I took.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy said that there was a large group of people who throughout the incidents involved themselves in the attacks on these farmers, that it wasn't just the seven of you who were tried in the Supreme Court, that the groups were always big on that or what do you make of that observation?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is true, it was not only the seven of us, it was not only those who were arrested, there were other people too.

MR KINCAID: Did you bear Mr Hansel any ill will or spite, did you have any personal reason for wanting to injure him, Msianda?

MR NTONGA: No, I didn't have anything against him and I was not even related to him but I was there because of what we were looking for and also wanted to threaten him so that he can leave that area.

MR KINCAID: Did you take any of his property Msianda? Did you take any of his clothing or his linen or any other thing which was not a weapon or an arm?

MR NTONGA: I only remember the firearm that was with me and eight bullets that's all, I don't remember anything else. There's nothing else I saw except those even though we were a group of people inside.

MR KINCAID: The attack on Mr Cobus, were you party to that?

MR NTONGA: That is correct.

MR KINCAID: And what was your involvement in the attack on Mr Cobus, did you personally cause him any injury or assault him in any way?

MR NTONGA: What I did - are you referring to Mr Erickie?

MR KINCAID: Yes.

MR NTONGA: I shot at him.

MR KINCAID: Why did you shoot at him?

MR NTONGA: The reason was I was afraid because he missed me with a firearm, I was just trying to scare him, I was trying to shoot through a window and then he got shot. I didn't think that I would hit him or the bullet would strike him, I thought I was just scaring him. We told him that we also had a weapon so he must stop shooting, we were not there to kill him, we just wanted a weapon. We were outside next to the window when we were talking to him.

MR KINCAID: You mention that you did not want to kill him. Jimmy testified that the meeting decision was that farmers were not to be killed. Do you confirm Jimmy's testimony in that regard?

MR NTONGA: Yes, those were the instructions that we were given after we were told to intimidate or threaten the farmers, we were told not to kill them and we were told them not to take anything else except for the weapons and the camouflages of the military uniform.

MR KINCAID: So you were alive to that warning when you shot at Mr Erickie, Mr Cobus, were you or were you aiming to kill him?

MR NTONGA: Yes I was not aiming to kill him because I didn't even see where he was I was just shooting.

MR KINCAID: The evidence disclosed that you were unable to get any firearms from Mr Cobus, Mr Erickie. The next incident would have been the Pretorius incident when both Mr Pretorius and his farm assistant Mr Senti were injured. What was your involvement in those attacks Msianda?

MR NTONGA: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR KINCAID: Mr Pretorius and Joe Senti, how did you involve yourself in the attacks on them or what role did you play?

MR NTONGA: In Mr Pretorius' I also had a firearm. First of all we went to the servants' quarters and we knocked at the door, we wanted them to open the door for us and as he was closing the door I was aiming at the door because I could see that he didn't want to open the door. I just wanted to threaten him to open the door because he had opened the door but he closed the door so as he was closing the door I wanted just to scare him, I shot at the door and unfortunately his hands at the door so he got shot and I saw that when we were inside and apologised to him because my intention was not to shoot at him but to scare him because we wanted him to open the door. We did not want him to be shot, we wanted him to take us to the farmhouse.

MR KINCAID: Mr Pretorius, did you shoot Mr Pretorius?

MR NTONGA: That is correct.

MR KINCAID: Why did you shoot Mr Pretorius?

MR NTONGA: The reason why I shot Mr Pretorius is because I was trying to scare him as he was coming out from the house and there were dogs and the firearm was on and the dog came towards me and I pulled the trigger and the firearm was pointing in his direction. Those were not my intentions, I didn't want to shoot at him, I just wanted him to come towards us.

MR KINCAID: You say the firearm was pointed in his direction, how were you holding the firearm, did you take deliberate aim or how were you holding this firearm that it was pointed at him?

MR NTONGA: I was holding it as I'm demonstrating but it was pointing towards his direction, I was just scaring him and the dog appeared and it disturbed me and I pulled the trigger.

MR KINCAID: For purposes of the record Mr Chairman, the applicant indicates that he had the firearm tucked under his right shoulder and indicated that he held it out extended conveying that there was not deliberate aiming of the firearm.

MR KINCAID: Now the shooting of Mr Cobus, the shooting of Mr Pretorius, the shooting of Joe Senti, were those shootings occasioned by any ill will, any spite, any malice, any personal dislike for those victims on your part?

MR NTONGA: No I didn't even know them, even the employees, Mr Pretorius' employees, I didn't know them so there was no hatred. Our intentions was to get weapons and to threaten him or to scare him away from his area. There was nothing else apart from that.

MR KINCAID: I have a possession of an affidavit which I'm going to ask that you confirm in due course but in it you state at paragraph 3:

And then you say:

And do you confirm that apology in your testimony?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Dealing with the attack on Mrs Clackers, Msianda, were you involved in this attack?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: How many of you were involved in the attack on Mrs Clackers?

MR NTONGA: There were three of us.

MR KINCAID: Yourself, Jimmy and?

MR NTONGA: And the other Nokawusana.

MR KINCAID: Why did you decide to attack Mrs Clackers, why was she the target?

MR NTONGA: The reason was because at the time there was a consumer boycott, you were not supposed to buy at shops that were owned by white people and we found out that she was trading in that area. We then decided that certain comrades should go and tell her to close that shop, wanted to threaten her so that she can close the shop. We didn't want to stop people from buying, we wanted her to close the shop or we would burn the shop and the other reason was to tell them to leave the area and if we found any weapons we would take them, that's why we went to Mrs Clackers.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy wasn't quite sure what the motive was, he suggested that it was to tell her to stop trading but only later on in his testament did he say that when he realised that Mrs Clackers was reaching for something under the counter did he perceive the possibility that she was armed. Is your testimony that before you set out to Mrs Clackers that the purpose of getting firearms was in your mind at least or one of the objectives?

MR NTONGA: Yes at all times when we were going to the White people we did think that we might get a weapon because it was rare that White people did not have weapons, especially in the rural areas so that was in our minds.

MR KINCAID: Did you assault or injure Mrs Clackers in any way?

MR NTONGA: No I didn't touch her.

MR KINCAID: Did you have any role on that particular day in that incident, what did you do, if you did anything?

MR NTONGA: Yes I did take part, my role, because there were dogs in that area and those dogs were coming towards us I took a broom and I hit the dogs and they went out of the back room and the other one was looking out for the police or for anybody who would come around and as I was hitting these dogs I met a White boy, I tried to call him because I wanted him to come inside the shop to be together with Mrs Clackers and he ran away to the house. I thought that he might be reaching or going to get a weapon so I told my colleagues that there's this somebody who came and who ran away so we were disturbed and we left. That was my role.

MR KINCAID: It's suggested that your purpose in going to Mrs Clackers' trading store was merely to rob her of money. What do you make of that contention Msianda?

MR NTONGA: I don't know anything about money because I didn't take any money, I just took part as I've already explained before. We then ran away, the three of us, I didn't see any money from them and they didn't show me any weapon. We just came back empty handed.

MR KINCAID: The charge sheet alleged and you were convicted of a theft of some batteries as well, batteries and a bread knife. Did you take batteries or a bread knife or any money?

MR NTONGA: No I don't remember those things, I don't remember seeing those things or those people.

MR KINCAID: The Marulia incident, Msianda, were you party to the attack on Mrs Marulia?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy's testimony was that the group which attacked Mrs Marulia went to Kei Road in a Combi, confirm that?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: What was your role, what was your involvement in the attack on Mrs Marulia?

MR NTONGA: My role was this, after - is this Mrs Marulia, in Kei Road? I took weapons and bullets, that's my role. I took two rifles and a lot of bullets, that is all I can remember taking.

MR KINCAID: Did you assault or injure Mrs Marulia in any way?

MR NTONGA: No, I didn't even see her and I never saw her before. I didn't see anybody there, I just saw blood inside.

MR KINCAID: Msianda, the charge sheet alleges again that there were goods stolen from Mrs Marulia's house which weren't weapons or arms, goods of the normal household nature, cooking utensils and money. Did you see anyone steal this, did you steal it, were you party to it's removal?

MR NTONGA: I didn't take any part in that and I didn't see anybody taking such goods, I only saw the items that I had with me, those I just described.

MR KINCAID: The point 22 pistol and the ammunition?

MR NTONGA: Yes I saw the two pistols and the other one had two barrels and the other one had one barrel and one trigger and a Z38. Those were the three weapons that we found there and a lot of bullets, ammunition that we found. That is all I saw.

MR KINCAID: Did you bear Mrs Marulia any ill will or spite, did you have any personal reason for wanting to injure her and attack her?

MR NTONGA: As I've already said, I never saw her before, I didn't know her so there was no hatred, I had nothing against her. We were just there to do what we had done to other farmers.

MR KINCAID: Do you know what became of those firearms, the firearms that you took from Mr Hansel, from Mrs Marulia? What became of those firearms, were they used in the struggle? What happened?

MR NTONGA: What happened is when we left Mrs Marulia's some of us were left behind. The weapons that we found there, they weren't with other comrades. I got hold of the firearms that was used by Mr Nokawusana because the police came and others went back with a Combi and others walked so I took the firearm that was with Mr Nokawusana so I don't know what happened to the others but according to my knowledge we had to surrender whatever we found in the roadblock.

MR KINCAID: So the weapons that you recovered from the farmers were to be left at the roadblocks, is that your testimony?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is so.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy has tendered an apology to the victims of these incidents. In your confirmatory affidavit you indicate that you wish to echo that apology. Do you confirm that under oath?

MR NTONGA: Yes I confirm that.

MR KINCAID: Okay, that's the evidence in chief Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Kincaid. We'll adjourn for 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: We have had, in the course of the tea adjournment, a power failure in apparently of this part of the city and that has unfortunately disrupted the proceedings. We were compelled to take an early lunch adjournment and it's for that reason that we are restarting the proceedings at this time, at 13H30 and we are hopeful that we would be able to catch up any time which has been lost in the process. Of course it was beyond control of any one of us.

Mr Ntonga, I want to remind you that you are still under oath, do you understand that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: (s.u.o.) Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Clarke, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CLARKE: Thank you Mr Chairman I have a number of questions to the witness, the applicant. If I may proceed? Thank you.

Mr Ntonga, prior to your going to prison what formal education did you have?

MR NTONGA: Standard one.

MR CLARKE: Standard one? When did you do Standard one, what year?

MR NTONGA: I stopped school in 1983 or 1984 I don't remember well.

MR CLARKE: Thank you. Now I hope when you testify you'll appreciate that if we - if I personally do not believe the evidence that you give that I will ask the Committee to disregard your evidence? Do you appreciate that?

MR NTONGA: I do hear what you're saying.

MR CLARKE: Good. Now I think I made a note that your belief was or that your instructions were at all times that you were not to commit any acts of theft, is that the correct position, in your various visits to these farmhouses and stores?

MR NTONGA: That is correct.

MR CLARKE: Okay. Who issued that instruction?

MR NTONGA: It was Randele Manele.

MR CLARKE: I see and was it he who instructed you to go out and look for weapons?

MR NTONGA: Yes he was the speaker of the community.

MR CLARKE: I see. Now who instructed you to go to Mrs Clackers' store?

MR NTONGA: We were not given an order but we decided that when we were in the roadblock.

MR CLARKE: Was that yourself plus the - when you say we decided, was that you and the Nokawusana brothers?

MR NTONGA: It was myself together with the comrades that were embarked in a roadblock and they were also present.

MR CLARKE: Who were those comrades?

MR NTONGA: I don't know there names or I don't know all of them but I only know those that were with me. There were a lot of us in the roadblock.

MR CLARKE: You can't name them though?

MR NTONGA: No I can't name them.

MR CLARKE: I see.

ADV SANDI: I'm sorry Mr Clarke, can I just? You say you can't name them, do you mean to say that you don't know who they are or should we take it that you do know them but you're not prepared to name them?

MR NTONGA: What I mean is I don't know their names because there were a lot of us there, I only know those that were with me.

MR CLARKE: Thank you through you, Mr Chairman.

So the three of you then decided that you would go and visit this trading store, is that correct?

MR NTONGA: No, that is not correct, we didn't decide it was not only the three of us what decided but people were sent to go there. The three of us were sent by the comrades who were in the roadblock to go to the shop.

MR CLARKE: You were party to that decision, you and the other two were party to that decision?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct because we were also there, we participated in that decision, it was not only us though.

MR CLARKE: Now I would like you in your own words to tell the Committee what happened?

MR NTONGA: Where we were going?

MR CLARKE: I would like you to tell the Committee what happened when you arrived there at Mrs Clackers' door?

MR NTONGA: We went to the shop in Mrs Clackers' farm. When we arrived there we went in and there were people who were inside, I don't know how many there were, I think there were two or three but there were not many. We asked her why was she trading in her shop because there was this consumer boycott.

MR CLARKE: Who is we, who do you refer to when you say we asked?

MR NTONGA: It was myself and the two Nokawusana.

MR CLARKE: Did all three of you ask together?

MR NTONGA: No, it was not like that but what I'm saying is I was also there. It was Mr Nokawusana who was speaking to her.

MR CLARKE: Jimmy?

MR NTONGA: Yes.

MR CLARKE: What did you do?

MR NTONGA: When he asked her that question, when he asked Mrs Clackers that question, Mrs Clackers reached for something under the counter and Mr Nokawusana went on that other side of the counter and the dogs came out inside the shop and I helped him with the dogs, I was hitting the dogs and he was struggling with Mrs Clackers. I went out to hit the dogs and they went out through the back door of the shop. I chased the dogs outside and when I was near the door I saw a white boy who was about my age and I called him to the shop and he didn't come, he ran away when he saw me, he ran towards the house, Mrs Clackers' house and I came back. I went back to the shop and I told them that there was this particular person and I was not sure whether he was going to look for a weapon or what and we didn't have a weapon with us so we ran away.

MR CLARKE: Now Mrs Clackers suffered very, very serious bruising around her throat here, around her windpipe. Who had grabbed her on her windpipe like that?

MR NTONGA: I cannot dispute that but I never touched her, the person who was wrestling with her was Jimmy, my job was to hit the dogs.

MR CLARKE: So was it Jimmy who grabbed her by the throat?

Was it Jimmy that grabbed her by the throat?

MR NTONGA: I do not know of that.

MR CLARKE: Mr Ntonga you were there and you were present and you were watching what was going on not so?

MR NTONGA: I was not watching I was also busy on the other side.

MR CLARKE: My client believes that it is you that eventually approached her with a knife, is that the position?

MR NTONGA: No there's nothing like that.

MR CLARKE: Now my instructions are that this happened very shortly after 2 p.m. after she'd reopened after lunch break. Do you agree with that?

MR NTONGA: I did not have a watch, I did not check the time.

MR CLARKE: Did it happen in the early afternoon, you don't need a watch to tell that?

MR NTONGA: It happened during the day but I do not know what time was it and I did not ask for some time before doing the job, I did not ask for time before doing the job.

MR CLARKE: Okay. My instructions are that there were no other people in the shop but for the three of you? Do you agree with that?

MR NTONGA: Myself and the person who was there I am saying there were people there but I cannot tell how many people were there. If there were not two there were three, we found them inside the shop.

MR CLARKE: Now on your evidence I understand your role was that the first thing you did was that you chased the dogs with a broomstick and in the second part you kept guard, you kept watch to see that no one was coming to interfere with this assault on Mrs Clackers, is that the position?

MR NTONGA: I was not watching, I was not on guard for anything but I was trying to drive these dogs away because they were disturbing. As Jimmy was busy wrestling with the lady as we don't what the lady was doing under the counter. There was someone else who was watching.

MR CLARKE: My notes on your evidence in chief suggests that in the first place you had a broom to see to the dogs and your second role was that of looking out which I understand to mean to be keeping a watch out. Did you not say that in your evidence in chief?

MR NTONGA: I saw a person though I was not watching anything but I saw a person, a White person who looked more or less my age and then I came to tell them it's not that I was watching because I saw them from the inside, there was a person who was on the outside, who was doing the job of watching, the other person who was with us.

MR CLARKE: Can you tell me if your mission was simply to arrive there and tell Mrs Clackers that she should close her shop, if that was purely your mission, why was it necessary or why should she have appeared to try and draw a gun from under the counter?

MR NTONGA: I will not know, I think she knows, I won't know the reason for that.

MR CLARKE: It doesn't make good sense does it?

MR NTONGA: She is the one who was trying to get something underneath the counter and I did not know what she was doing there but I just thought to myself that she was trying to get a firearm because when we came in she was not doing anything under the counter but when we told her to close the shop she started touching, trying to reach out to get something underneath, that is why I suspected that she might be looking for a gun.

MR CLARKE: I put it to you that it sounds unlikely because your entire story is unlikely, but what you were doing there was carrying out a robbery. What do you say to that?

MR NTONGA: I am saying that we did not go there for robbery, we went there as I have explained. We went there to close the shop, we wanted her to put a padlock at the shop, to lock the shop completely because we couldn't prevent the people from buying in her shop because her shop was in a place that was more like a remote place so we wanted her to close the shop by putting a padlock.

MR CLARKE: Consistently the course of action which you and your fellow comrades adopted was not one of going in peace to ask people to do things. Consistently the pattern of action that you and your comrades adopted was one of aggression and attack and I put it to you that all of the evidence that has been collected indicates that?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is true, we were using force, we couldn't ask them in the normal way, we were threatening her because we knew that it was not easy for her to close a shop and that was her source of income.

MR CLARKE: Now it seems to be accepted that money was stolen from this shop and batteries and a carving knife. Who would have taken those goods?

MR NTONGA: I do not dispute that but myself and the comrades, it was during the day and it was so bright that I did not see anything because we got a fright when we saw this boy because our aim was to get hold of that firearm of which even that firearm we did not get it at the end.

MR CLARKE: What makes you - do you believe that there was a firearm there?

MR NTONGA: I am not certain but we were just suspecting because of the manner which she reacted because when we came in she was not doing anything underneath the counter but when we told her to close the shop and then she started looking up for something under the counter we suspected that she was actually reaching for her gun.

MR CLARKE: Do you admit that she was very grievously assaulted?

MR NTONGA: I cannot say yes or no because I never touched her. She was busy wrestling with Jimmy Nokawusana.

MR CLARKE: I put it to you that you saw exactly what was going on there. You were there and you were present and you would have seen what was going on, not so?

MR NTONGA: I was not watching I was busy doing my own job on the side, I did not have time to look at what the other person was doing because I was also playing my role.

MR CLARKE: So you didn't see what happened to Mrs Clackers at all?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct. I just saw them wrestling, with Jimmy and nothing else.

MR CLARKE: I'm going to ask the court - I'm going to ask this Committee to reject your evidence because you are being, in my view, evasive, Mr Ntonga, by saying that you saw nothing?

Mr Chairman, if you could bear with me please?

Did you hear the account of what happened that I put to your fellow comrade, Jimmy?

MR NTONGA: Yes I was listening.

MR CLARKE: I'm not - do you remember what she said - what I said?

MR NTONGA: No I cannot remember everything.

MR CLARKE: Do you remember the thrust of it was that one of your number first entered the shop then the second one climbed on the counter and assaulted Mrs Clackers, that there was a scuffle, that at some stage the till was pulled off the counter and that a third party then joined and was about to stab her before that third one which we suspect is you desisted. Do you deny that?

MR NTONGA: Yes I deny that, I know exactly what I was doing there. I deny the fact that I came with a knife.

MR CLARKE: And our further suggestion is that you were party to a robbery in that certain things were taken from the shop by force. Do you deny that?

MR NTONGA: That is not so, yes I was in the shop, we went there to close the shop.

MR CLARKE: My further submission to you is that the community as such gave you no mandate whatsoever to visit this shop and that that is apparent from your very own evidence. What do you say to that?

MR NTONGA: That is not true.

MR CLARKE: That the decision to go and rob the shop emanated from you and a number of your comrades, not so?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR CLARKE: I further put it to you that if there was a decision by the community that white shops should be boycotted, to go and beat up a woman who is running the shop on her own there does not reflect a decision to boycott but rather as an act of thuggery. Do you concede that?

MR NTONGA: I do not see it that way.

MR CLARKE: By promoting a boycott, you persuade the consumers not to buy there, you don't go and beat up the shopkeeper, do you?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is true, we don't go to the shops, we just write a message but that shop was on the farm and we couldn't go there and establish some roadblocks because the people from that area and the near farms that were closer to her would go and buy there but we just wanted her to put a padlock outside her shop so that there would be no people who would go there secretly and buy. That was the reason that made us to go and tell her so because that never used to be a procedure with the other business people, White business people, because we had closed the roads. We knew where the people used to buy, that is why we had to go to her shop to go and tell her to close the shop because her shop was inside the farm.

MR CLARKE: My instructions are, in closing, that your conduct was simply a very cowardly act of robbery, crime of robbery. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Clarke. Ms Patel, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Ntonga, I just want to briefly go through the offences for which you've been convicted of as set out on page 30 of the bundle of documents that we have before us. I see there that you are found guilty of malicious damage to property in that the telephone lines of Mr Hansel was cut. I just want to know, you haven't mentioned anything about your involvement in cutting the telephone lines. Can you just tell us whether you were in fact involved in that, whether you had any knowledge that those lines were cut?

MR NTONGA: I was not looking at everything, I was concentrating on my job and most of these things would happen during the night and it wasn't easy for one to see who is doing what but normally whenever we were about to do something the cutting of the telephone wires used to be the first thing to do.

MS PATEL: Okay. So this was part of the plan that you were aware of but you yourself personally was not involved in. Okay can we move on from there? You were also found guilty of the attempted murder of Mr Cobus. Now you've stated in your supplementary affidavit to us - oh no, I see that relates to Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti, sorry. In your evidence to us you said that "I was afraid" you were afraid when you shot and that you weren't sure - sorry Honourable Chair, if I can just gather my thoughts?

You state here that:

Does that mean that you did not intend to kill any person who was on the premises that night?

MR NTONGA: Yes I'm trying to explain that it was not my intention to shoot him, I just wanted to scare him so that he should know that what he had at the time is also what we had.

MS PATEL: Okay, if you just wanted to scare him, why shoot him in the face?

MR NTONGA: I couldn't even see him from where I was, I was just shooting because I wanted him to know that we had a firearm and a real firearm, that is the reason that made to hit him but that was never my intention.

MS PATEL: If your intention was only to prove that your firearm was in fact a real one, why didn't you shoot into the air, why shoot into the man's face?

MR NTONGA: As I've already explained, I couldn't even see him, I was not even aiming at him, I was just scaring him, therefore I couldn't shoot in the air, that would look like a tall gun. I wanted him to understand that that was a real gun, therefore that is why I couldn't shoot in the air.

MS PATEL: Okay. Then Mr Cobus' telephone wires were also cut and you were found guilty of malicious damage to property in respect of that. Is your response in respect of your knowledge of the telephone wires being cut for this incident the same as in Mr Hansel's?

MR NTONGA: Yes, I did not see who cut the telephone wires but I am sure that the telephone wires were cut there as that used to be the first thing to do whenever we are about to do a job.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can you tell us how entry was gained into Mr Cobus' house?

MR NTONGA: I remember when I got in through a window with a certain group I am not sure whether it was a bathroom window but I remember getting indoor with a certain group of people.

MS PATEL: Okay and was it your intention to find weapons only and ammunition if possible?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct and we also wanted him to get the message that he should vacate the place.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry Honourable Chair.

Did Mr Cobus fire at you first? Was that your evidence, I'm not sure if this is the incident where they were fired upon first?

MR NTONGA: Yes he is the one who shot at us.

MS PATEL: Okay. Then with the Pretorius incident with Mr Senti, was there any damage to his property, to Mr Senti's house?

MR NTONGA: I can say it was a door that was hit by a bullet and himself, I cannot remember anything that was damaged in his house.

MS PATEL: Okay, well you were charged with malicious damage to property because the window was broken. Do you deny that the window was broken?

MR NTONGA: No I cannot deny that but I cannot remember because we were quite a number of people, I couldn't look and see everything that was happening.

MS PATEL: But you weren't involved in that, you were at the front door, are you saying that the rest of the people were in other parts of the house?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: You wouldn't know why the window would have been broken, was there any discussion about that, do you know?

MR NTONGA: As I've already explained I am not sure, I do not have any knowledge about the window that broke and I cannot say it did not break but I cannot say yes it did.

MS PATEL: Okay, you say that you just wanted - you shot Mr Senti because you just wanted to scare him, was that right?

MR NTONGA: Yes I was just scaring him, I wanted him to open the door so that he can give us information as to how to get to the white man's house.

MS PATEL: That makes no sense to me, Sir, perhaps you can help me. How do you shoot somebody to scare him if you want him to help you?

MR NTONGA: I was not directing at him as I've already explained.

MS PATEL: Are you saying that you just wanted to shoot the door open?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay. Why was Mr Senti's wife taken with to Mr Pretorius' farmhouse, was it to get help for Mr Senti who you had shot or was it to go and get him to leave the farm?

MR NTONGA: Initially our aim was to go there and get the firearms and drive him out of the farm but unfortunately something that happened at Mr Senti's house but we decided to take his wife along because we wanted him to also get help because when we get to Mr Pretorius' house we would try and force him, Mr Pretorius that is, to take this person who was injured to the hospital so that we can also get a chance and search in his house and get whatever we're looking for.

MS PATEL: Okay, but shooting Mr Pretorius was a mistake?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay. You say that you were aiming at the dogs when Mr Pretorius was shot?

MR NTONGA: I was not aiming at the dogs, I was aiming at him directly, that is Mr Pretorius.

MS PATEL: Okay. You didn't intend to shoot him?

MR NTONGA: I was pointing a gun at him because I wanted him to surrender and come to us not that I wanted to shoot him.

MS PATEL: And Mr Pretorius was unarmed at the time?

MR NTONGA: I did not see anything.

MS PATEL: Sorry, you said you didn't see anything but you were close enough to see if he did have a firearm on him, not so?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct, it might happen that he had a small firearm that can fit in the waist without being detected or seen.

MS PATEL: Okay. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me a moment?

Oh yes, if I can just backtrack for a second, Mrs Senti, did she come willingly with you to Mr Pretorius?

MR NTONGA: What I noticed that she was so scared and she had a shock for what happened. We had to knock at next door her house because we wanted someone else to go with her so that she can feel safe and she can feel safe knowing that nothing was going to happen to her and we found a maid there and we took her with to Mr Pretorius' place.

MS PATEL: Okay, now this is the first time we've heard this evidence. You say that - what did you say to the person who came with Mrs Senti to Mr Pretorius? It's never been mentioned before.

MR NTONGA: We knocked at the house and they opened because they were awoken by this gunshot and we told them that we were comrades and we were not there to fight and we told them that some accident happened next door and we were not there for that, we just wanted to go to the main house and we asked this gentleman to accompany us with this lady because this lady had a shock already so we wanted to go to Mr Pretorius' place to ask for someone to assist him as he was injured, that is Mr Senti.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel. That gentleman, Mr Ntonga, did he in the end accompany you, did he come along with you?

MR NTONGA: Yes he did accompany us because he could see that we were only ...(indistinct)

MS PATEL: Mr Ntonga, if there were neighbours there, I don't understand, when you knocked on Mr Senti's door and he didn't want to help you, why didn't you move to the neighbours and ask for help there rather?

MR NTONGA: We did not think about that but the very first house that we approached was Mr Senti's house. We did not think of knocking next door, we just thought about knocking at Mr Senti's house because it was very late in the evening for us to wake up everyone.

MS PATEL: Well I'm not sure where the evidence of somebody else accompanying you has come from at this late stage because it wasn't mentioned at the trial I don't think. I want to put it to you though that Mrs Senti was in fact compelled by you and your group to go to Mr Pretorius' farmhouse?

MR NTONGA: That is not true.

MS PATEL: Okay. I'm sorry, Sir, do you say that you entered Mr Pretorius' house?

MR NTONGA: We did not get the chance to get inside his house.

MS PATEL: Oh no, that's correct yes, I'm sorry you didn't mention anything about it, you just said that you shot him.

Sorry Honourable Chairperson, I'm just checking something before I move on.

Another thing that puzzles me is that nowhere is there evidence of a dog being on the premises at Mr Pretorius' farmhouse. It's not mentioned in the judgement, it's not mentioned in the summary of facts either and I'm not sure now whether your co-applicant, Jimmy, has mentioned the fact of a dog being present. Jimmy didn't mention a dog being present either? What is your comment, Sir?

MR NTONGA: I don't know Jimmy's problem but he has spent a very long time in prison, maybe he had forgotten about it and I'm sure that even Mr Pretorius knows that he's got some dogs.

MS PATEL: Were you involved in, besides shooting Mr Pretorius, were you involved in any further assault on him?

MR NTONGA: No I never touched him with my hand.

MS PATEL: Do you know whether any of the other members of your group had assaulted Mr Pretorius afterwards?

MR NTONGA: Yes there were people who went to him, I don't know whether they assaulted him or not but I saw some people going to him.

MS PATEL: And this was in fact after he had been shot not so?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay. Then Mrs Marulia, she was the old person, the old woman in the last incident. You were found guilty of housebreaking with intent to rob and robbery. Can you tell us how entry was gained to Mrs Marulia's house and what you did specifically?

MR NTONGA: I remember getting through the door and we stole the guns that we displayed on the walls, the big firearms. I went straight there to them and I saw a very big trunk the size of this table, it was full of ammunition and I transferred them into the bag and then with one firearm that had a two trigger and then I went into another direction. I don't know what happened to the other people who were with me there.

MS PATEL: Okay, tell me this trunk or this room where you say the firearms were and where the trunk was, can you recall how far that was from possibly the kitchen or the storeroom of that house?

MR NTONGA: I do not have a picture how the placed looked like but it was one of the rooms with firearms displayed on the wall and the big trunk but I cannot remember but it was not in the kitchen.

MS PATEL: Okay. Did you take any of the goods besides the gun and the firearm that was mentioned at court and that was read out I think to Jimmy earlier on, it's a radio, a gas lighter, sweets, cash, bottle of Cane, bedsheets, different types of foods, leather jacket. Did you take any of those things?

MR NTONGA: No, as I've already explained, I took the firearm and a bag with bullets, I took the bullets from the trunk and then I put them in the bag, I did not see anyone taking such items.

MS PATEL: And you didn't see anybody else taking such items either?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct, I did not see anyone taking such items from the people who were with me, we had to leave the house in a hurry, the others ran away with the car and I had to walk and I got caught on the way.

MS PATEL: Okay, so you got caught with Mr Hansel's rifle, not so?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and the ammunition that you got caught with, was that for Mr Hansel's rifle or was it some other ammunition, of ammunition that you'd taken from Mrs Marulia's place?

MR NTONGA: The bullets that he had were the bullets that I got them from where I was coming from, not Mr Hansel's bullets, those were the bullets that I got from that house.

MS PATEL: Let's just - in your application, you know the form that you filled out that you sent to us, you state in there, page 36 Honourable Chairperson of the bundle, the top paragraph. When you talk about the incident at Mr Pretorius' place you state there that you searched the house and yet here you've denied that you searched Mr Pretorius' house?

MR NTONGA: I cannot remember that I put that information in my application. We didn't even get inside Mr Pretorius' house.

MS PATEL: Okay. And you also I think in connection with Mr Cobus, you state that an attempt was made to arson. Can you briefly tell us about that?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct, we got a gas cylinder there and we released the gas from the gas cylinder and we set alight and we thought that those gas cylinders were going to explode and we did not have time because it was about early hours of the morning so we left the house burning.

MS PATEL: Okay and your motivation if I understand you correctly, in getting involved in all these incidents was to get firearms and to get the farmers to leave the area, correct?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can you recall whether any of these farmers that were attacked, whose homes were invaded, whether any of them were told by either yourself or anyone else in your group that they had to leave or else. Were they warned?

MR NTONGA: I do not have knowledge about that because I was not an executive, I used to do what I was being told and it was once mentioned that they're going to be written letters telling them to leave the area, I am not sure whether the executive did that but we were looking for the weapons in the farms and driving them away and we did not know, I did not know whether those letters were written or not.

MS PATEL: Okay I'm sorry, I'm not referring to those letters, I'm referring to when you and your group of people went to the specific farms to get the weapons and to attack the farmers. When you came to Mr Hansel, when you came to Mr Pretorius and the rest of the people that you went to, was any of them told by any one in your group at that specific time that your intention, all you wanted was firearms and for them to leave and if they didn't leave then you would force them to leave?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct, the only person that we got a chance to give him that information was Mr Goud, we did not get the opportunity of talking to the other people face to face about that, he is the only person that we met with.

MS PATEL: Is Mr Goud Mr Hansel? Have I got that right is it Mr Hansel? That's the first farm where you got the rifle from?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct, he is the first one.

MS PATEL: Okay, then I want to put it to you that I've spoken to Mr Hansel's son who is present here today and he says that his father never ever when he spoke to his father after the attack on him, that there was no mention made of him being told of what your intentions were in terms of getting him off the farm? What is your comment?

MR NTONGA: I don't know anything about that, maybe he was just saying it for the sake of saying it but I remember very telling him that. We told him after he had given me the firearm. After testing the firearm we told him that we need that place he should just leave the place or else we were going to set the house alight. He is that person that I remember very well that we talked to him face to face about getting the farmers to leave the area. With the others we did not get the chance to tell them because they would fight, on our arrival they would start fighting us.

MS PATEL: I want to put it to you ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel can you just get more of this if you're going to be asking him about something else?

Now what did you say to Mr Goud, did you say to him we want you off the farm and what did he say when you said that to him?

MR NTONGA: He said he was going to do so. As we were leaving him behind tied up and we told him that Sir, we want this place, therefore we request you to go to the people who are like you in town and if you do not do that we are going to set the place alight and then we left the house.

ADV SANDI: Is that before you came back to attack him?

MR NTONGA: It is after we had taken the firearm and then we were leaving him with our word and we're telling him that we in need of that place, we wanted him to look for a place that has got people who look more like him next to the town or else we were going to set him alight and then we left him there.

MS PATEL: You know I don't want to be unfair to you, I know that you were very young at the time and that you were placed in possession of a very powerful weapon, namely that rifle. Did you have any training in terms of use of firearms and a rifle specifically?

MR NTONGA: No, that is not so, I never got any training.

MS PATEL: Okay, why were you the one who was always in possession of that rifle at the incidents, well except at the Marulia farm where Jimmy had it with him?

MR NTONGA: The reason for that, I was the one who had the knowledge, who was familiar with this firearm. There were other people who would operate it but I'm the one who was more familiar with the use of this because Mr Goud showed me how to use it but during the roadblocks I would leave it whenever I was changing shifts I would leave it behind for the others to use.

MS PATEL: Did you also know Mr Hansel before you went to the farm to attack him that night?

MR NTONGA: I did not know him, I just used to see him as the other white people from a distance, I never used to know him.

MS PATEL: Were you involved in the selection of any of the targets for which you applied for amnesty?

MR NTONGA: Selection by whom, by us or?

MS PATEL: By your group, were you involved in that process where it was decided who would be attacked or who would be told to leave whatever area?

MR NTONGA: Yes I was present from the beginning when that statement was announced, I was there since then I started attending the roadblocks all the time and the other things would be planned during the roadblocks as to where to go and get the firearms because there were not sufficient and the other people were using the other objects that were used to fight so we were planning during the roadblocks as to where to go and get the firearms, people would come up with ideas such as places.

MS PATEL: Okay and you also knew that there were specific instructions that nobody was to be killed yet most of the people you shot were shot in the upper part of their bodies? Surely that is not consistent with just wanting to scare somebody?

MR NTONGA: I am saying the reason for me to shoot these people sometimes that would happen by mistake. I did not aim at killing them, I am sure that if I aimed at killing them, I should have killed them. If you went there to kill the people like Mr Hansel we could have killed him and Mr Pretorius and the others because I would fire more - I could have fired more than one shot and the others assaulted him until he fell down unconscious and if I wanted to kill him I would just finish him up with the firearm. Even at Kolaga, if we wanted to stab her we had that chance, we would do it but we were not there to kill, we could have stabbed her if we wanted to do it because we had time for that.

MS PATEL: Tell me Sir, I want to put it to you that these deeds were not committed with a political motivation, that you and the rest of the members of your group inasmuch as there might have been a decision by the community in terms of how farmers must be dealt with in that area, that you were not obeying that decision, that you and the rest of your friends were out there with a different intention, that was not politically motivated, that was in fact criminal?

MR NTONGA: That is not so.

MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel. Mr Ntonga, who filled in your amnesty application form?

MR NTONGA: You mean writing?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NTONGA: My co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't do it yourself?

MR NTONGA: No, I am not in a position to write in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you fired these shots at those people that you referred to in your evidence, did you accept that it was possible that those people could have been killed?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct, if you shoot at a person that person can even die but that was not my intention.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how many other people were arrested with you at the time after you had left the last farm that you spoke about?

MR NTONGA: It was seven of us when we were arrested, we were seven.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the police get in your possession?

MR NTONGA: When the police found me I had nothing. I had abandoned the firearm in the forest where I was running, I abandoned it there and they caught me barehanded.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they get hold of the firearm, the police?

MR NTONGA: I do not know because I ran and I left at the place where I had left this firearm but it looks like they scratched for it and they found it because I saw the firearm in court.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they find in the possession of the other six people?

MR NTONGA: We were two when we were arrested, we were walking in that forest, we were two when we were walking there and the others were in a Combi. Only two of us was arrested in the forest. Even this other one who was with me had a firearm from the old lady, the small firearm. He decided to hide it in that forest and they couldn't find it, only mine was found in the forest.

CHAIRPERSON: So did the police also not find anything in the possession of your companion, the person that was with you?

MR NTONGA: Yes he had nothing when he was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: The five that were arrested in the Combi, were they the other people that were charged with you in the criminal case?

MR NTONGA: They were not arrested the same day, they were arrested some months after I had been arrested and they were not in the Combi they were arrested in their homes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether when they were eventually arrested the police got anything in their possession?

MR NTONGA: I don't know what was found in their possession but I cannot remember anything, I don't know because even their clothes were taken, I don't know what is it they took from those clothes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair. You've made mention of a Combi, whose Combi was this?

MR NTONGA: I don't know but it was from the community, I don't know the owner.

ADV SANDI: Just to get more, you know, precise clarity about your arrest. Is there someone else who was arrested in the same vicinity where you were arrested at the same town in the

same vicinity?

MR NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Who was that?

MR NTONGA: I cannot remember his names but we were two on that particular spot, I cannot remember his name.

ADV SANDI: Now that person whose name you cannot remember, was he found in possession of anything?

MR NTONGA: No, nothing was found in his possession, even in court nothing was made mention of any item that was found with him because we were arrested on different spots but in the same forest.

ADV SANDI: Ms patel has been asking you about the items which are not firearms and ammunition. Did you see any of these items at any stage?

MR NTONGA: No I saw nothing else except what I've mentioned, the firearms and the ammunition, nothing else.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, thank you Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ntonga, these roadblocks, was there only one that was sort of where you worked in shifts or were there many roadblocks?

MR NTONGA: You would take two roadblocks sometimes because there were two roads that were coming from town. We would only close the roads that they were having access to the White area.

ADV BOSMAN: And who organised the roadblocks, who told you to go at a certain time and who organised the shifts?

MR NTONGA: As I've already explained, the announcement was made after the incident that took place at the hall and since that we would have two shifts at the roadblocks, the morning shift and the late shift.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes but my question is, who made these announcements, who were the leaders that organised you?

MR NTONGA: No one was responsible, we were solely responsible for anything but those were the matters that would arise during the shifts and we would have to find a solution to whatever the problem and we knew that the weapons were there on the farms so people would suggest places among us and we would go to that particular place and do as usual.

ADV BOSMAN: But how did you know to go to Mr Hansel's farm and to Mr Cobus' farm and to the Pretorius' farm and to Mrs Marulia's farm? How did you know to go?

MR NTONGA: Those were the matters that would arise during the roadblocks. The others were having the firearms and the others were having other objects that could be used therefore such decisions would come from people during the shifts. Though the announcement was made on that particular day that we could get firearms from the farmers but we were also told not to kill but only to take the firearms and tell them to leave and we were told that they were going to write letters to them to tell them to leave. We were still doing as it was discussed during that meeting. The leaders were not visiting the roadblocks frequently to tell us what to do so we continued to do the job until we were arrested.

ADV BOSMAN: Now on most of these farms there were old people living on their own. Do you agree?

MR NTONGA: Yes, at the time I did not know that, I did not know the owners of the farms and the ages of the people, I would go there and find it there but that was never mentioned that no age limit was mentioned but they were talking about White in general, no other adults or young people were mentioned.

ADV BOSMAN: Was this just incidental that they were old people living on their own in four of the incidents? Was it just incidental? It wasn't planned that way at all, to go to farms where there were people living on their own and people who were elderly?

MR NTONGA: There was no planning. We were working with Whites in general, Whites on the farms whether it's a woman or a man but we would just go there as all of them were farmers.

ADV BOSMAN: Were there any of these people who were attacked who you knew personally?

MR NTONGA: Most of those farmers that we were attacking I did not know them.

ADV BOSMAN: My question is were there any of them that you knew?

MR NTONGA: No, I did not know any of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kincaid any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Your testimony, Mzuyanda is that you acted in a group, there was a group that carried out these attacks and that the decision to attack was taken at the roadblocks, do you confirm that?

MR NTONGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: So at the roadblocks were some discussion given to the manner in which the attacks were to be carried out?

MR NTONGA: Yes, that is correct, but most of the times you would talk about firearms because they were not sufficient, and even in the place where we were it was not safe for us to be there.

The police would come in a disguise, would walk to the roadblock and we'd just hear a bullet. Therefore, most of the times we were discussing about the firearms, and after that we had to pursue what was said by our leaders there, the idea of driving the farmers away.

MR KINCAID: So the attacks on the farmers was a group effort, it was the actions of a group of youths?

MR NTONGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Correct me if I'm wrong, Mzuyanda, but I don't understand you to be disputing your convictions. You were convicted in the Supreme Court of 14-odd counts involving robbery, malicious damage to property, attempted murder, housebreaking with the intent to rob, am I wrong? Do I misunderstand your testimony? Are you saying that those convictions were wrongly founded or is it your case that you were properly convicted by the Supreme Court?

MR NTONGA: No, the conviction, the judgment was not fair.

MR KINCAID: Why do you say that, Mzuyanda, in what aspect?

MR NTONGA: In the sense that at the time we were fighting and we were fighting for our rights and we were not wrong in what we were doing. There was no time to talk, it was time for action, time to use our power.

MR KINCAID: That's what this Committee is faced with now, is assessing what motives you had in mind when you committed these criminal acts, and I'm asking you, is it your case that you didn't commit these criminal, that the convictions in the Supreme Court were not proper convictions, or do you accept that you were convicted correctly, but what you put before this Committee now is a disclosure of the motive for committing those acts?

MR NTONGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Do you confirm the contents of the affidavit you deposed to on the 21st of April and signed before a Commissioner of Oaths, do you confirm those contents?

MR NTONGA: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR KINCAID: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume that concludes the testimony of this applicant?

MR KINCAID: It does, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntonga, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to call the remaining Nokawusana?

MR KINCAID: I shall do so, Mr Chairperson. Applicant number AM 200/96, Melville Nokawusana.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us your full names for the record please.

MR NOKAWUSANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Kincaid?

EXAMINATION BY MR KINCAID: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Do you mind if I call you Melville?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I do not mind.

MR KINCAID: Melville, let me start off with you on the point that I ended off with Mzuyanda. You were convicted in the Supreme Court on the 26th of June 1992, of attempted murder, of housebreaking with intent to rob, of malicious damage to property, of another attempt of attempted murder, of housebreaking with the intent to commit a crime ...(indistinct) state of malicious damage to property, two counts of robbery. Do you contest those convictions, or is it your case too that the judge was correct and proper in finding you guilty of the crimes with which you were charged?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I agree with the convictions because I did those things.

MR KINCAID: Melville, we have heard the testimony of Jimmy, your brother and he has sketched the background to the events which took place from 1985 to 1990, in Stutterheim. Similarly I must ask of you, were you a member of a supporter of a political grouping?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I was a supporter.

MR KINCAID: Of which grouping, of which political movement?

MR NOKAWUSANA: ANC Youth League.

MR KINCAID: Okay. And at the time, Melville, how old would you have been? Going to back to 1985, how old were you in 1985, can you recall? It's almost 15 years back.

MR NOKAWUSANA: I was 19 years old.

MR KINCAID: Still a young man. Now did you attend the meeting in the Matomela Church Hall in Stutterheim, in December of 1989?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes.

MR KINCAID: Were you there, Melville, when the Security Forces disrupted the meeting, when they fired rubber bullets and teargassed the people who had gathered there and dispersed them in that fashion?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct, I was there.

MR KINCAID: What did those actions instill in you, how did you respond to that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I felt angry because I realised that we were not safe in our community.

MR KINCAID: Did you consequently - two meetings were held. The testimony has been, that of Jimmy and Mzuyanda confirms it, two meetings were held on the soccer fields of Kabusi township, did you attend either or both of those meetings?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I was present.

MR KINCAID: At both of them?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I was present at both of them.

MR KINCAID: And can you confirm what Jimmy says, that the resolutions of those meetings were namely to target the farmers of Stutterheim and to intimidate them, chase them from their land, rob them of their firearms, to take their land. Can you confirm that that was the resolution of that meeting?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: And with that background, Melville, did you go to the home of Mr Hansel, Mr Hansel who farmed on the farm Greenlands in the district of Stutterheim?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is true.

MR KINCAID: Hansel. Also he had a nickname, it's been pronounced as Gout, but that may, Gout or Gout or, that is the instant that we are referring to.

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I was not present there.

MR KINCAID: Mr Hansel was attacked on his farm on the 31st of January and he is the victim who Mzuyanda has described as having been assaulted and tied to his bed, he was the victim who pointed out the shotgun in his wardrobe and who showed Mzuyanda how to fire it and discharge it. That is the incident we are referring to now.

MR NOKAWUSANA: I only remember Cobus, I did not manage to get to Mr Hansel ...(indistinct). I was not there, I was only involved in Mr Cobus' incident.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I'm sorry, if I may intervene at this stage. If one looks at what this applicant was convicted of, it doesn't relate to the Hansel incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, his conviction starts with the Cobus incident, he has not been convicted on Counts 1 and 2.

MR KINCAID: I'm indebted to the Evidence Leader and to you, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Kincaid, perhaps before he tells us about his role, what role he played in each particular attack, he can just point out which attacks he was involved in. He has pointed out that he was involved in the Cobus attack.

MR KINCAID: Melville, you've heard the Committee Member's request, could you tell the Committee just which attacks you were involved in, if you recall.

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can do that.

MR KINCAID: Which ones were they?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Mr Cobus, Mr Pretorius, Mrs Clackers.

MR KINCAID: Thank you, Melville. The incident at Mr Cobus' farm, can you tell the Committee why it was decided to attack Mr Cobus?

MR NOKAWUSANA: The reason came out of the meeting that was - I beg your pardon, when there was a meeting at the hall, as were welcoming Mr Hlangue and Reverend Shingwa ...

MR KINCAID: Yes? Please continue. Are you referring to this church hall shooting?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I'm referring to the Matomela Church Hall.

MR KINCAID: Okay. Evidence has been led that because of that church hall shooting there were two meetings at which a decision was taken to attack the farmers. Now I ask you, is that the reason why you went to Mr Cobus' farm, or did you have other reasons for going to Mr Cobus' farm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: The reason for us to go there was because of what happened at the hall.

MR KINCAID: Alright. Could you tell the Committee what was your role, what did you do at Mr Cobus' house?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can.

MR KINCAID: Please go ahead.

MR NOKAWUSANA: We went to Mr Cobus' place. I think it was a quite a large number of us, between 15 and 20, or more than 20. We went to the servant's quarters, we knocked, they refused to open, we told them that we were comrades, they opened - I beg your pardon, we told them to open for us because we had, we were looking for something. He opened and we asked where Mr Cobus was staying. The person told us.

We borrowed a pinchers. He gave it to us. We left. We went to the main house. When we arrived at the main house we saw a gate that looked like it was used for the cows. It had a pole that was, a telephone pole and we realised that that was a telephone pole and we disconnected it or we cut it. Jimmy climbed up and cut the wire.

We went inside - we went straight to the main house and there were dogs that were barking, but they were so small because, they ran away because we were quite a large number of people. We went to the front of the house, we knocked. We told them that we were visitors and we were his visitors. We told him to open for us. Mr Cobus he will not do that because we were going to shoot him and he said that, as he was saying that he started firing.

We ran away. We went to the backyard. We saw a bathroom window with a net, those are the windows that you normally pull them up when you open them. We destroyed that net, we removed that net and we opened the window and we went inside and the others were on the sides where his bedroom was, or where he was and he did not stop firing.

I took a broom that was on the veranda, I tried to disturb him at the window because I did not want him to access to the others who were trying to get inside. He continued firing from my direction. It was myself and Bonakele Bhayi and Rhandile Bhayi who were next to this window. There were others who were surrounding the house, trying to distract, to disturb him so as to prevent him from shooting at the people who were already in the house.

I got into the house through the kitchen door. I saw a rope that was on the passage with a burglar door. They tied a rope at that burglar door. The only person that I noticed there was Jimmy and Mr Ntonga. They were inside and there were also other people inside. It looked like they were trying to pull and open this burglar door, and Mr Cobus who was in that room was shooting towards the side where there were people who were trying to open.

He was shooting in all directions. Even if he senses that there were people who were at the windows who were trying to disturb him, he was just shooting at the people who were banging the windows. I heard a sound from the inside, from the side where Jimmy was. I was already outside at the time.

We took the gas cylinders, three of them, the big ones, we put them on his bedroom window, outside next to his bedroom window because he was not willing to get out of the house. We opened the gas cylinders to release the gas and I lit a match setting them alight. A big flame went through the window. His window was open, but it was just slightly open.

Even at that time we were also scared because he was shooting in all directions as we were trying to disturb him, but he was shooting in all directions. There was fire and we ran away. We thought that the tanks or cylinders were going to explode. It was towards the early hours of the morning and he was giving us trouble. I did not notice whether Mr Cobus was shot at. I only heard that - when I was at home I heard that Mr Cobus was shot.

MR KINCAID: Who had the firearm, Melville?

MR NOKAWUSANA: It was Mzuyanda Ntonga.

MR KINCAID: The next incident - before I move onto that, the time that you attacked Mr Cobus, Melville, did you harbour him any ill-will, any spite, any personal grudge?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No.

MR KINCAID: The next incident would have been the incident in which Joe Senti was injured and Mr Pretorius. You were party to that attack, you were there on the farm, were you?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct, I was there.

MR KINCAID: Could you tell the Committee what you did? Mzuyanda Ntonga has told the Committee what he did and Jimmy has told the Committee what he did during those incidents, but can you tell the Committee what your personal role was in the attack on Joe Senti if you were involved in that and also on Mr Pretorius.

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can tell the Committee.

MR KINCAID: Please proceed.

MR NOKAWUSANA: We went to Mr Joe Senti's in Mr Pretorius' farm. Mr Joe Senti was working on that farm. We went there to ask about Mr Pretorius, where he was staying, where his house was. We arrived at Mr Joe Senti. I was the one who knocked at the door. he didn't want to open the door, Mr Joe Senti. We told him that we were comrades, we were there to see him. He opened the door and then he closed the door again. He said that he was not going to open the door because we were soldiers. When he was closing the door a shot was fired.

The person who was next to me was Mzuyanda Ntonga, who had a weapon. After that somebody asked why was this person shot. We then tried to open and we realised that that was a mistake, the intention was not to shoot at him.

We tried to open and Joe Senti finally opened the door. We went inside, we apologised to him. We told him that we didn't intend to shoot at him but because he didn't want to open the door he got shot. We asked his wife to accompany us to take us to Mr Pretorius' house so that Mr Joe Senti can be taken to the hospital. His wife agreed.

We went to the next door house, the house next door to theirs. We knocked at the door and the people inside that house were frightened. They opened the door for us because they also heard a gunshot. We told them that we were not there to fight them, we were there to ask for a person to accompany that lady, Mr Joe Senti's wife, so that we can go and ask Mr Pretorius to come and help Mr Joe Senti, to take him to the hospital.

A man came out of that house and he accompanied us. We arrived in that farmhouse and there is a ...(indistinct) in that house next to the gate. That lady stood there and we stood next to her. We told her to call out for people inside. Mr Pretorius came out because this lady called him. The lights were not on at the time. There was a searchlight outside, but it was also off, it was not on.

When he went out he came towards us and there was a dog barking. It was coming towards us. When I was still watching that dog I heard a shot, a gun shot and I heard screams and there was a white lady who asked something from Mr Pretorius and Mr Pretorius was lying down at that time.

When we were trying to reach the house an ambulance came and then we decided to run away. We then ran away at that particular time.

MR KINCAID: Did you do anything to Mr Pretorius, Melville, did you in any way assault him yourself personally?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I did because I had a stick with me, because we wanted him to take us to the house to show us where the weapons were.

MR KINCAID: What did you do to him?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I hit him with that stick three times. He stood up and he went to the direction of the house. When he was next to the house he stood next to the door and an ambulance and a van came and we then ran away.

MR KINCAID: Did you assault Mr Pretorius for any reasons which were motivated by spite or malice, any ill-feelings that you harboured towards him?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I didn't take part in that because I hated him, I wanted him to stand up and go to the house and show us where the weapons were. After that we would take him to the servants quarters to take Mr Joe Senti, so that he can take him to the hospital.

MR KINCAID: Now the last incident we need to cover is the attack on the trading store of Mrs Clackers. Could you tell the Committee how it came about that it was decided to attack Mrs Clackers' farm store?

MR NOKAWUSANA: There was a consumer boycott in Stutterheim, we were not supposed to buy in the shops that were owned by white people and there would be a board that would be written in the township that tells people that they were not supposed to buy in the shops in town.

After that a decision was taken during the roadblock and we were elected, there were three comrades that were elected to go to Mrs Clackers to close down her shop because we heard that she had a shop that was operating in that side, in Kologa, and people from that side were buying in that shop when the boycott was still on, when the shops were closed.

Our intentions to go to her, we just wanted to intimidate her. We wanted her to close down her shop, not to sell anything to the people because people were not supposed to buy at shops that were owned by white people.

MR KINCAID: What happened, Melville, what happened when you got to Mrs Clackers' trading store?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I was together with Mzuyanda Ntonga and Jimmy Nokawusana. We went to that shop. Jimmy Nokawusana, we left him outside. We in, it was myself and Mzuyanda Ntonga.

We went inside the shop. There were three people inside the shop. When we arrived there we asked those people why were they buying in that shop knowing that there was this boycott, we were not supposed to buy at white people's shops. We then saw Jimmy coming in and he spoke to Mrs Clackers. He asked her why was she operating. He then said that she must close the shop. We saw that Mrs Clackers was reaching for something under the counter and it is when Jimmy Nokawusana tried to grab Mrs Clackers.

And there were dogs, two small dogs and one other dog, a police dog. That police dog wanted to bite us. Mzuyanda took a broomstick and he hit those dogs and they went out. What I did, I waited at the door watching for the police because we didn't want the police to arrive when we were there because they would arrest us because we wanted that shop to be closed.

Mzuyanda Ntonga after hitting those dogs came back and he said that we must run away because there is another person who was there, who was a white person and he was coming towards the shop and when he saw him he went back to the house, so we must run away because maybe this person would come out with a weapon, maybe that person would shoot at us. We then ran away. There is nothing else I saw except for that.

MR KINCAID: Mrs Clackers is, it is her case, put through her legal representative that as it was in the criminal trial, that she was throttled and choked and threatened with a knife. Did you see any of this, Melville?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I didn't see that. The reason why we went to that shop is, we wanted her to close the shop because she was selling things to the people even though people were not supposed to buy things from the white people's home. That boycott lasted something like six months.

MR KINCAID: Money, batteries and a knife were taken from the shop, did you see anyone take those items, or did you take any of those items?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I didn't take any of those.

MR KINCAID: Did you see anyone else take them?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I didn't see anybody taking those things because when we were running away it was the three of us running away and it was during the day. We didn't have anything with us.

MR KINCAID: Did you, when you attacks Mrs Clackers, harbour her any ill-will, did you attack her out of spite or malice?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I just regarded her as one of the white people and the reason why we went there was because she broke the law, she opened the shop while there was this boycott.

MR KINCAID: Melville, can you say that after your arrest in 1990, that the farm attacks, the attacks on farms in Stutterheim and that area, did they continue or did they stop when the seven of you were arrested, do you know what happened? Was that the end of the attacks on the farmers?

MR NOKAWUSANA: There were things like that that happened after we were arrested. Even though people would arrested, they would be released. They would just be suspects and they would be released.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy has tendered an apology to the victims of these attacks. In your confirmatory affidavit you state that you wish to echo that apology, do you do so now?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Do you confirm the contents of your affidavit signed on the 21st of April this year?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR KINCAID: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kincaid. We are going to take a very brief adjournment. We are hoping that we will be able to conclude the testimony of this applicant and we will receive the evidence of Mrs Clackers, but we'll adjourn very briefly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nokawusana, you are reminded that you are still under oath, do you understand?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Clarke, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CLARKE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I do.

Mr Nokawusana, did I understand that you accepted the correctness of the convictions that you were found guilty of in the Supreme Court?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct, because I did what I was convicted for.

MR CLARKE: Including the conviction of robbery, in respect of Mrs Clackers?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I don't remember us going there to rob, we went there to close down the shop.

MR CLARKE: There was evidence that you were the only three in that shop and that the goods were stolen by you, money, batteries, a carving knife.

MR NOKAWUSANA: I don't remember us taking such items.

MR CLARKE: Now did I understand that it was your duty to keep watch at the entrance of the shop, is that your evidence?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, it was myself.

MR CLARKE: Did you have your brother Jimmy and Mrs Clackers in your view? Were you watching them?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, at the time when I was still inside the shop.

MR CLARKE: And did you observe your brother assaulting Mrs Clackers?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I saw a scuffle between Jimmy and Mrs Clackers, Mrs Clackers wanted to go out of the door.

MR CLARKE: That's correct, she was trying to get out. And what happened in the scuffle?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I then went out to guard people, not to, I guard the police so that they cannot see us.

MR CLARKE: Slow down, you said you saw a scuffle between your brother and Mrs Clackers, did you not say that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I did say that.

MR CLARKE: Now I want you to tell me what happened in this scuffle that you saw.

MR NOKAWUSANA: When Jimmy told, or asked Mrs Clackers why she was operating in her shop she reached for something under the counter and then Jimmy went to her side because he thought that she was reaching for something, a weapon and I also thought that there was a weapon there.

MR CLARKE: What gave you reason to think that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: It is because when she was told to close the shop she reached for something under the counter, whereas when we arrived there she was not reaching for anything under the counter.

MR CLARKE: She was at the counter when she was first accosted by your brother Jimmy, not so?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I don't remember because I was not looking at one thing there, I was also guarding the police.

MR CLARKE: You saw the scuffle, don't start not remembering and thinking about other things. You saw the scuffle. I want you to tell us about that scuffle. You saw them at the till, not so?

MR NOKAWUSANA: When I went to the shop, Mrs Clackers was sitting down on a chair and there were three people that were inside the shop. We then spoke to those people and we asked them why were they buying things in that shop even though there was this boycott. While we were still talking to these people, Jimmy came in the shop and he spoke to Mrs Clackers and asked why was she operating in the shop knowing that there was a boycott in all other shops.

MR CLARKE: My instructions are that she, that one of you first went in there to look for a Makweta blanket, do you recall that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I don't recall that, maybe it's one of the people that were already inside the shop, that were looking for a Makweta blanket.

MR CLARKE: She had just opened at 2 o'clock when the first of you came in there, not so?

MR NOKAWUSANA: When I went inside the shop the shop was already opened.

MR CLARKE: Just opened. Jimmy or one of you then, having - sorry, can I just restart this question please, Mr Chairman. The first of you asked to look at the Makweta blanket, thereafter Jimmy made his entrance, climbed on the counter and demanded a coka cola, did you see that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I didn't see that, he just spoke to Mrs Clackers, saying that she must close the shop because there was this boycott.

MR CLARKE: What you did see was Jimmy's assault on Mrs Clackers. Now if I can get back to the question, that happened at the till, not so?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, it happened - there was a small passage next to the counter, it happened there. That's where it happened.

MR CLARKE: Behind the till. And then she tried to escape, she tried to, she withdrew along, behind the counter in the direction of the door, not so? You mentioned that she moved towards the door just now.

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, this scuffle happened next to the door.

MR CLARKE: And it was during this time that she was so grievously assaulted. You saw that, didn't you?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I didn't see when she was assaulted, she just fell down. He grabbed her and then she fell down.

MR CLARKE: She didn't fall down according to her, she withdrew, she tried to get away, she moved towards the door and this assault on her continued. You saw her moving towards the door, didn't you?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, during this scuffle they went towards the door.

MR CLARKE: Now if the explanation offered is that she was trying to get at her firearm under her counter at the time, was there any need for this assault on her to continue?

MR NOKAWUSANA: As there was not enough time there, we ran away. There was no chance, we didn't have a chance to hit or to assault her. But there was no need for her to be assaulted because we went there to close down the shop.

MR CLARKE: Thank you, there was no need. That is precisely what we are trying to clear up, that what happened was a very, very grievous assault and the course of what you're telling us, particularly the fact that she was moving away from where your brother said he believed there was a gun seems to pull the bottom out of his explanation, that it was necessary to overpower here, not so? - because she was moving away from where he thought the gun was.

MR NOKAWUSANA: I would like to explain this. When she was reaching for something under the counter, Jimmy went to her side, the other side of the counter and there was this scuffle between the two of them and they went towards the door. I was standing at the door at the time.

MR CLARKE: Watching this?

MR NOKAWUSANA: This happened whilst I was still inside the shop.

MR CLARKE: And so she moved away from where this gun was believed to be stored, why was it necessary to keep assaulting her? Can I ...(intervention)

MR NOKAWUSANA: When we went there, when we were there, when she was reaching for something under the counter, we thought that there was a weapon there and he was talking to her saying that she must give us that weapon.

MR CLARKE: I put it to you that she moved away from where the weapon was allegedly placed, but in fact the scuffle moved away from that spot under the till towards the door and then she was forcibly dragged back to the till and it was at that stage that she pulled the till off the counter. Did you see that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: No, I did not see that.

MR CLARKE: Did you stop observing at the stage when she had been moved towards the door, she had withdrawn towards the door?

MR NOKAWUSANA: What happened is, after the scuffle, Mzuyanda then hit the dogs and then he saw the person who was coming towards the shop and he came back to the shop and he told us that there was a person who was coming towards the shop and that person went back to the house, maybe that person would come with the weapon so we must run away, we then ran away.

MR CLARKE: Not before she had been taken back to the till and not before, to try and open the till she had pulled it off the counter. Whether it was to try and open it or not is unclear, but not before she had pulled it off the counter, not so?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I don't remember that.

MR CLARKE: You don't remember that. I'm suggesting to you, Mr Nokawusana, that what happened in there is only consistent with common robbery by three able-bodied young men on a woman and that there's nothing political about that.

MR NOKAWUSANA: What I know is we went there to close down the shop because there was this consumer boycott that lasted for six months.

MR CLARKE: Did I understand you in Xhosa to say you don't remember (andikhambula)?

MR NOKAWUSANA: What I'm trying to say is I don't remember that happening.

MR CLARKE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Clarke. Ms Patel, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Nokawusana, when you went to Mr Cobus' farm, you went there with the intention to rob and not to kill, not so or am I wrong?

MR NOKAWUSANA: That is not so.

MS PATEL: Okay, would you like to set me straight then, what was the intention of going to Mr Cobus's farm?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can tell you.

MS PATEL: Okay.

MR NOKAWUSANA: Our executive members, our leaders gave us the message that we should attack the farmers, we should intimidate them and take the weapons from them and we should tell them to leave their places.

MS PATEL: Okay. So this conviction of housebreaking with the intention to rob, that's incorrect, you're denying that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I deny that because those were not our intentions.

MS PATEL: And the attempted murder charge of Mr Cobus, do you deny that you or any members of your group, by doing what you had done to both him and the attack on his house, that that was part of an attempt to murder him?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct, it was not an attempt to murder him.

MS PATEL: Alright. Can I ask you this, did you foresee the possibility that by one of the members of your group shooting at Mr Cobus and others trying to get at him through trying to break the burglar bars or burglar gates by throwing in a gas cylinder that was alight, that through all of those actions you didn't foresee the possibility that Mr Cobus - or through that action, sorry, you didn't intend to bring about Mr Cobus' death or foresee the possibility that that action might lead to his death?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Our intentions when we used the gas cylinders in that window, we wanted him to get out of the room because he locked himself inside the room. We went there to tell him to give us the weapons and to leave that place, we did not go there to kill him.

MS PATEL: Can you recall who told him to get out of the place, that all you wanted was for him to get out of the place and give the weapons?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We didn't get the opportunity to meet him or to go inside because Mr Cobus was shooting at us.

MS PATEL: So he wasn't told what your intentions were when you got there?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We didn't have that opportunity to tell him that.

MS PATEL: Okay. And you were also convicted of housebreaking with the intent to commit a crime unknown to the state, and this housebreaking relates to Mr Senti, Mr Senti's place. You didn't intend to commit a crime when you went to Mr Senti's house, not so?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is so.

MS PATEL: You didn't intend to break into his house either?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay. Did you see anything wrong in the manner in which you went about trying to elicit Mr Senti's assistance in going to Mr Pretorius' house, or in, sorry, in him showing you the way to Mr Pretorius' house?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I do see something wrong, but it was a mistake because our intentions, we just wanted to ask him to show us the direction to the house or to show us the house.

MS PATEL: And did you break the window to Mr Senti's house?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I don't remember any window being broken, but there were people who were knocking at the window.

MS PATEL: Okay. So in terms of the conviction of malicious damage to property, which relates to Mr Senti's window, you deny any knowledge of that?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Damaging Mr Senti's property?

MS PATEL: His window specifically.

MR NOKAWUSANA: I can't say the window was not broken or it was broken because I was standing at the door, next to the door, I was not amongst the people who were standing next to the window.

MS PATEL: And do you like your fellow applicants have already testified, state that Mrs Senti or Mr Senti's wife at the time, had come willingly with you to show you, to point out Mr Pretorius' house?

MR NOKAWUSANA: We asked her to accompany us or to show us the house.

MS PATEL: And in terms of the attempted murder of Mr Pretorius, do you say that was a mistake as well?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct, according to your decision because we went there with the intention of getting weapons from Mr Pretorius and telling, and we went there to tell him to leave that area. And this incident about Joe Senti, he was injured and that was a mistake, so we went to Mr Pretorius, we wanted him to help Mr Joe Senti, to take him to the hospital.

MS PATEL: If you wanted him to help you, why did one of your colleagues shoot him and then you proceeded, as you've stated very clearly in your evidence-in-chief:

MR NOKAWUSANA: The reason for that is that we were trying to intimidate him, or to threaten him because we wanted him to give us weapons because Mr Pretorius was already shot and we then decided to ask for weapons or to want weapons from him and after he had given us the weapons we would have told him to leave that place and we would then force him to take Mr Joe Senti to the Hospital.

MS PATEL: You'd force a man who has already been shot, who is then subsequently assaulted by you and other members of your group, you'd then force that man to take Mr Senti to the hospital, is that what you want us to believe?

MR NOKAWUSANA: He didn't seem like he was injured because he was walking on his two feet. When we told him to stand up he did so and he walked.

MS PATEL: You know, Mr Nokawusana your version is so improbable. I want to put it to you, Sir, that given the manner in which these incidents were carried out and given clearly that there was an instruction that no-one was to be killed, that you didn't act with a political motive, that your deeds that you have been found guilty of and some of which you have chosen to deny, were purely criminal.

MR NOKAWUSANA: I don't know it like that.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions from the Panel?

ADV SANDI: Mr Nokawusana, the three customers you were talking about, what happened to those people? When you left the shop were they there, what happened?

MR NOKAWUSANA: I didn't notice whether they went out or what because we were busy there and Mrs Clackers was involved in this scuffle with Jimmy and there were these dogs that wanted to bite us, so that confused me, I didn't see what happened. And the person that was said to be coming out of the house, coming towards the shop, that led us to run away, so I didn't take not, I didn't notice what happened to those people, I didn't even see whether they were still in the shop or not.

ADV SANDI: When you ran away, where was Mrs Clackers, was she lying on the ground in the shop, what was she doing when you left her?

MR NOKAWUSANA: She was lying down. She was on the floor.

ADV SANDI: Where exactly in the shop?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Next to the counter, towards the door.

ADV SANDI: You've made mention of a scuffle between Mrs Clackers and your brother Jimmy and you say:

Who was in front of the other, was it Jimmy in front of Mrs Clackers or was Mrs Clackers in front of Jimmy as they were moving towards the door?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Jimmy was next to the wall, the wall that was next to the door because he jumped on her at the time when she was reaching for something under the counter and there was this scuffle and they went towards the door and then she fell down and Nzuyanda was hitting the dogs at the time and he chased the dogs out of the door. And he saw this young man that was coming out of the house, the white young man.

He came back to us and he told us that there was this person who was coming out of the farmhouse and this person went back to the house, so we must run away, maybe this person was going to get the firearm to shoot at us. We then ran away. I didn't notice or see what Mrs Clackers did after that.

ADV SANDI: Are you saying Jimmy tackled Mrs Clackers and pushed her down onto the ground?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: When they were moving towards the door, did it appear to you that anyone of them was pushing the other?

MR NOKAWUSANA: They were both involved in this scuffle, they were holding each other in this scuffle.

ADV SANDI: You have said you were some sort of an eye keeper, watching out for the police outside, were you able to pay 100% concentration to what was happening inside?

MR NOKAWUSANA: When I last saw what happened I was still inside the shop. That is when I last saw what was happening inside, but when I was at the door I didn't see everything that was happening inside the shop.

ADV SANDI: Why would you not see everything that was happening inside?

MR NOKAWUSANA: They were not on my view as I was standing next to the door. I couldn't see them.

ADV SANDI: Should we understand you to say that part of your concentration was directed to the possibility of the police appearing on the scene? Do I understand you correctly in that way?

MR NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Kincaid.

MR KINCADE: None, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, does that conclude the evidence of Mr Nokawusana?

MR KINCAID: It does indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Nokawusana, you can stand down, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Clarke, you had indicated that your client wishes to testify.

MR CLARKE: That is so, Mr Chairman, and following our discussion earlier this morning in the presence of the various legal representatives, the request was that she could give her evidence now for the reason that she's got compelling business to keep her in Stutterheim tomorrow morning. If the Committee so pleases to work late this evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, we had lost a bit of time in the course of the day. You want to call your - and I assume that the other parties are in agreement, they're not objecting to ...

MR KINCAID: No objection from me there, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Same here, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR CLARKE: I'm indebted, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Clackers, can you give your full names for the record please.

ANNE ELIZABETH CLACKERS: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please sit down. Mr Clarke?

EXAMINATION BY MR CLARKE: Mrs Clackers, do you recall the incident on the 19th of February 1990, when you were at your shop and you were visited by the three present applicants.

MS CLACKERS: I do.

MR CLARKE: ...(inaudible) this incident I've just related.

MS CLACKERS: Yes, I do.

MR CLARKE: Would you please in our own words and in your own time tell the Committee of the incidents of that day, thank you.

MS CLACKERS: It was in February when just at lunchtime - we usually close between one and two, when my husband and myself went up to open up the shop. I asked him to go into the wholesalers to go and get some goods at the wholesaler. I went and I helped him load empty crates onto the truck and he left.

It wasn't long that he had left when a guy had entered the shop and he said to me, could he have a look at Makweta blankets. I said to him: "Do you want to have a look at a Makweta blanket, don't you know what a Makweta blanket looks like?" He asked whether I could take it down and I said: "Do you want to buy it now?", and he said: "No, a farmer was going to come and buy it." So I said well I'll take it down when he comes and buys it.

I asked him if I could help him, he said no, he was just looking around in the shop. And the next minute a guy with a balaclava entered the shop, he jumped onto the counter, he sat with his one leg on the counter and he said to me: "Go and fetch me a coke". I said to him calmly I would. I just sensed that there something wrong because he was balaclava'd and I starting making my way to the front door. There is only one entrance, and I got to the entrance and I was pushed back by the third person.

The door was closed, there was nobody in the shop. The guy with the balaclava started choking me, he started throttling me, he tried to get my windpipe out, I fought back, just the two of us. I had him against the wall, I was in the middle, he kept on beating me. I tried to make my way back to the door. I was pushed back again from the guy standing at the door and at that moment I did have strength. And the guy in the balaclava said to the other guy behind me: "Help me, I can't kill this woman, she's got strength". And I did have strength and God had given me that strength.

From the door he pulled a knife out on me, he said: "Yes, I can't kill this woman, I am seeing something". He said that he saw something. And it was true when he said that he couldn't kill me, but I know that God had given me the strength because I haven't got such strength, to help me. The guy in the balaclava carried on beating me. He asked him for money and I said to him: "Alright, I will give you money". I went to my till, I then thought no, you've already beaten me and you're asking for my money, I won't give you my money. I took the till from the table and I threw it onto the floor. I wanted to get attention from somebody to come help me. At that time the noise was there and I started shouting and then they started using my dishcloths to close up my mouth. I begged him to stop beating me. He kept on saying: "Give me money, give me money". I said to him: "Alright, I will". I had some change under the counter and I gave him that and he must have thought it was a lot of money, but it wasn't much.

There were batteries on the counter - because the guy at the door came and said to him there was somebody coming up from the house, and that was my son.

While the beating was going on I was standing up all the time, with the strength that I got from God. I walked outside and I saw my son and I ...(indistinct) him - I'm sorry.

MR CLARKE: Can I ask you a few questions on that please? At that stage, did these three men leave your shop?

MS CLACKERS: Just the last one that kept on asking for money, he left when, he was the last to leave. I don't know what happened to the other two.

MR CLARKE: I see. Now in their evidence and in their application they've suggested, or stated that the purpose of their call there was to tell you to close yours shop in pursuance of this boycott, was there any suggestion, did they say anything like that to you?

MS CLACKERS: There was no mention of anything about closing or whatever, nothing.

MR CLARKE: I see. Now the other thing they say is that apparently appeared to grab for a firearm under your counter. Do you keep any firearms in your shop?

MS CLACKERS: I've never, I've never had - my husband's never been in an army, I've never kept guns anywhere near the shop.

MR CLARKE: What sort of relationship do you have with your black clientele?

MS CLACKERS: I've got people here that can speak for themselves, very good.

MR CLARKE: How long did you live with these throat wounds and body bruises and face bruises?

MS CLACKERS: For six months.

MR CLARKE: The evidence relating to your particular incident, that has been given by the three applicants, is there any truth in it?

MS CLACKERS: No, they're all telling lies.

MR CLARKE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Clackers, was there a consumer boycott in that area to your knowledge, at that time?

MS CLACKERS: There was.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Kincaid, questions?

MR KINCAID: I have no questions of the witness, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, just one.

Mrs Clackers, the applicants have testified that notices had apparently gone out to the farmers in the area saying that they must leave, do you bear any knowledge of this notice that was ...(intervention)

MS CLACKERS: I never got any notices, never.

MS PATEL: And did people who perhaps worked on the farm around there ever inform you about that?

MS CLACKERS: I had no labourers. I used to accommodate people that had no homes.

MS PATEL: Okay, thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Mrs Clackers, just one question from me. How far away was your shop from the township where the applicants lived, Kabusi township?

MS CLACKERS: It's very far. I think you've got to climb over about three mountains you know.

ADV BOSMAN: Sort of estimate the distance in a way.

MS CLACKERS: Could you help me, about ...? About five kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Clarke, any re-examination?

MR CLARKE: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want the witness to be excused?

MR CLARKE: If she may now be excused please, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mrs Clackers, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have really reached the end of the day. We will now adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning and we will reconvene at 9 o'clock or as soon thereafter as we are able to start. We're adjourned.