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CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. We are proceeding with the hearing that we were dealing with yesterday. Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. The next applicant I call is Mr Managa. He would also like to make use of the interpreter.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Managa is it correct - well first tell us your present occupation and where do you reside?

MR MANAGA: Now I am a pensioner. I am staying at Chisawuru.

MR MEYER: During the early 1980's is it correct that you were a member of the Venda National Force?

MR MANAGA: Yes I do remember.

MR MEYER: And which branch of the Venda National Force were you a part of?

MR MEYER: Under Security.

MR MEYER: Were you a member of the Security Branch of the Police?

MR MANAGA: That's the one.

MR MEYER: Now you were also involved in the arrest and detention and interrogation of the people listed in paragraph 15 of your statement, the five members of the church and then the two other people, is that correct?

MR MANAGA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MEYER: Can you remember which of the people you were personally involved in their arrests?

MR MANAGA: Of the people with whom I am involved it's Alfred Mahamba and Phineas Morehemi Posiwa; Ndaganeni Petros Poswana; Chenuane Simon Farisani and then the Dean of the Lutheran Church, Romanos Chikororo; Sifiwe Mahumela, Mbengeni John Ravele.

MR MEYER: So you were involved in all of the seven people's arrest?

MR MANAGA: Yes I was involved in their arrest and assaulting them.

MR MEYER: Before we get there, the arrests were done as a result of the attack on the Sibasa police station, is that correct?

MR MANAGA: Yes it's correct.

MR MEYER: Which rank did you hold at that stage?

MR MANAGA: I was a warrant officer.

MR MEYER: Now the reason you are here today is that you are applying for amnesty for assault and torture of some of the detainees during their interrogation, is that correct?

MR MANAGA: Yes it's correct?

MR MEYER: Now I want you to deal firstly, in the same order as it's done in your statement, from paragraph 35, where you deal there first with Reverend Posiwa, and in your statement you said you gave him a few slaps with the open hand. You possibly also punched him, made him do frog jumps and made him stand for a long time, is that correct?

MR MANAGA: That is correct.

MR MEYER: Did you use any other methods of assault or torture on him?

MR MANAGA: Yes, we have used other means, just like shocking them by electricity which we used nearly every time.

MR MEYER: Yes, anything else?

MR MANAGA: And putting a bag over his head and pour water. I still remember even handcuffing him, hands and legs, and then we insert a broomstick and then push two tables, one from one side and another and then we hang him over there. Then we interrogated him until we used to slap him with fists.

MR MEYER: When you would use the electric shock treatment on him, can you explain to the Panel how it was done?

MR MANAGA: Let me say in the electricity equipment I remember the last speaker, Mr Ramaligela, as well we took a sack and put it over his head and took wires and clipped them on their ears and I can't remember - but I still remember that I used it, I wind it while we were shocking him.

MR MEYER: Were you personally involved in the shock treatment? If I can maybe just clarify it for you - it's common cause ...(intervention)

MR MANAGA: I was personally involved in shocking him.

MR MEYER: Did you hold him down or did you personally also apply the shock treatment?

MR MANAGA: Now I can't clearly remember, but I assaulted him is true. I assaulted him heavily. And I should have used the equipment personally, referring to the way we were working with him.

MR MEYER: Then the next victim that is listed in your statement is Reverend Mahamba. You said in your statement that you never assaulted him in any way, is that correct?

MR MANAGA: Yes that is correct. Mr Mahamba, we never assaulted him in any way.

MR MEYER: And the next victim that you talk about is Dean Farisani. In your statement you said he was also assaulted by yourself, together with Mr Ramaligela in the same manner as Posiwa. Just briefly explain to the Panel what methods of assault or torture you used with Mr Farisani.

MR MANAGA: As far as Mr Farisani is concerned it is true. Reverend Farisani we have assaulted him using electrical shocks, fists, falling down and then I was also hitting him by fists and we also used that broomstick in which we hang him over the table. When we tried to hang him over it was broken because he was stout. Then we didn't continue with that, but we continued with interrogating until - and assaulting him.

MR MEYER: Was he made to stand on his head?

MR MANAGA: Yes I still remember but I am not sure, but I think it was impossible for him to stand on his head but I think it happened.

MR MEYER: There is also evidence about making him do frog jumps and press-ups, do you remember anything to that effect?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Where is that evidence Mr Meyer, are you not leading him?

MR MEYER: It's contained in his evidence before the Human Rights Violations.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, we've read that, but that's not the evidence that's before us. Shouldn't you ascertain that by asking proper - can you hold on Mr Managa, I am still talking to your counsel - shouldn't you just ask him what other means of assaults were conducted by him on Mr Farisani without having to lead him?

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman the fact is that if I don't refer to the evidence that was led before the Human Rights Violations Committee then in cross-examination it may look as if the witness intentionally omitted to make mention of such methods.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I have no objection to you bringing forth that kind of evidence. I am merely saying you must not put leading questions to him. Ask him if he knows of other means of torture that he conducted on Mr Farisani, if that is within his personal knowledge. He should be able to do that without you having to lead him on what he has done.

MR MEYER: I will rephrase the question. Can you tell us if there were any other methods of torture or assault used with regard to Mr Farisani?

MR MANAGA: The things we have used is the thing I have already mentioned. Farisani was - we used electricity shocks. We shocked him all over his body, and let him stand for a long time questioning him and then we hit him with our fists. I also hit him with my fists. I agree that I did that.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Reverend Poswana your statement says he was assaulted, slapped by you near Tsakuma after he had lied and told you that there were some arms hidden at a cave. Was that all that was done to Reverend Poswana or was there anything else?

MR MANAGA: With Reverend Poswana it is true while we were dealing with him it happened that we ended up that I pulled his head and then the hairs were removed by my hands. We used the electrical shocks. It is then that he told us that he will show us where the arms were hidden. We went with him.

On our arrival at Tsakuma while we were right in the bush next to Mangwere Mountain where he was alleging that he had hidden the weapon in the cave he sat down and said - "No, you had better do whatever you want, what I am telling you is not true". Then we realised that what he is saying is not true and then we went back.

Before we could come back I slapped him, asking him why you let us come here knowing that there is nothing hidden. Then we took him back to our office. In the office we continued to assault him.

MR MEYER: Any other methods that were used except the ones that you've now dealt with?

MR MANAGA: What I still remember is the electrical method. We also used electrical shocks and frog-jumping him. Ja, we let him do frog-jumping with his hands stretched and some like that.

MR MEYER: The next victim that is listed in your statement is Mr Ravele, and as far as he is concerned you said he was assaulted by yourself by slapping him also at his home during interrogation.

MR MANAGA: As far as Mr Ravele is concerned it happened this way. Mr Ravele of course we assaulted him not at his home only. Ravele was a person who seemed to be interested in co-operating with the police in investigating this case of the bombing of the police station where he ended up coming to the police station with a detonator and gave it to Captain Sofuwa promising to give us evidence in connection with those people involved.

Later we received information that at Makonde, in Venda, gunshots were heard. In understanding that Mr Ravele is staying in the direction where the gunshots were heard I went there with Mr Ramaligela to search for him and then we found him. In finding him Ravele was no longer prepared to tell the truth. He said yes, I also heard it, and then we decided to take him to the office where we would question him well.

In the office we were interrogating him, he said "yes I heard it but I don't know how it happened". Then looking at the arm I realised that there was a burning and then I questioned him, what is it that burnt you here on the shoulder? He said no it just happened one night. Then we said, no, I think it's you who shot that gun and then maybe something burnt you on the shoulder from the bullets.

While we were still beating Mr Ravele, Mr Ravele decided then to say, "no let me tell you the truth. I am the person responsible for the gunshot". And then we investigated, "where is the gun?". He said, "I have it, it is right in my house and I dug and hid it there". That was an AK47 gun with its ammunitions. It is then that Mr Ravele showed us where he shot into the air.

While we were looking there we found doppies. There were many. I can't remember how many doppies there were. It is then that we take Mr Ravele to his home. He took a spade and then he dug in the middle of the house and then we found the AK47. We took it and then we returned to our office.

On our arrival - let me say, as we were still dealing with Mr Ravele he also told us that there were other guns hidden which were hidden by those people who shot at the police station. I still remember that the Mobile Unit was also involved and we went with the Mobile squad to Mr Ravele's place. We went to a mountain near Makonde. We were taken to the place where the guns were hidden. It was just under a big stone. It appeared that only doppies were left. That is the only thing that we were able to find.

We took Mr Ravele back to the office so that he could be charged. He was taken to court.

MR MEYER: Alright. You have already mentioned that you beat Mr Ravele. Did you use any other methods of assault on him?

MR MANAGA: With regard to Mr Ravele, what I still remember we didn't use various methods because he did admit that he would be able to tell us the truth. That is why we continued.

MR MEYER: So just to clear up this point then with regards to Mr Ravele, you personally only beat him with your hands, is that correct?

MR MANAGA: Yes it is true I did assault him, I used my backhand.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Mr Chikororo, in your statement you said that you never assaulted him, is that true or not?

MR MANAGA: With regard to Mr Chikororo I can't say it is not true because in those days it was quite confusing because we just assaulted a lot of people. It is possible that I might have hit him. I can't really remember what happened in those days. He is one of those people who was also detained. It is not unlikely that we may not have hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember hitting him or assaulting him in any other fashion, you yourself?

MR MANAGA: Well I can't remember torturing him. Anyway I think I did use my bare hand.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You say that it's not unlikely that you may have assaulted Mr Chikororo, you can't say whether you assaulted him or not? You don't know?

MR MANAGA: We did torture these people, all these detainees were tortured. It was difficult for us to extract information and there was no time really to do otherwise. We did torture them. I do admit that they really suffered.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you can't remember whether or not you tortured him why did you say that you never assaulted him in your statement?

MR MANAGA: Let me say that at the time of the statement-taking I can't really remember very vividly. It is a long time ago. I can't really remember what happened then.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Now if you couldn't remember when you were completing this statement, and this was done on the 7th of January 1998, and you still couldn't remember, in fact it's not that you couldn't remember you said that you did not assault him on the 7th of January 1998, which is much earlier than where we are now, and when you completed another application in December of 1996 you still insisted that you had not assaulted Mr Chikororo, how can you now say that it's possible that you could have assaulted him? The events were much fresher than they should be now.

MR MANAGA: Well at the time when we submitted this first statement you must remember that we didn't have a legal representative and also we were only hearing about this over the radio ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: No when ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what difference does it make whether you have got a legal representative or not as to whether you can remember doing something or forgetting about something? The presence of a lawyer who wasn't at the incident, how can that affect your memory?

MR MANAGA: Well yes it does affect that, the attorney was really asking several issues which we were able to explain and we were able to remember.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you must have known, you don't need a lawyer to jog your memory about something that you personally did. The lawyer wouldn't know whether you assaulted somebody or not unless you volunteered that information when you gave him instruction. It's not something that you could be assisted by a legal representative to better remember.

And you say at that time you were not legally represented, and I want to put it to you that at the time when you completed the statement that I am referring to, your affidavit, which was a supplementary affidavit which you signed on the 7th of January 1998, you did that with the assistance of your lawyer. The initial application you completed most probably on your own.

You made the supplementary affidavit subsequent to enquiries made by the Committee. They wanted specifics of the assault for which you were seeking amnesty and your lawyer went on to emphasise that you had not committed any gross violation of human rights and therefore you didn't want to - there was no need for you to have a hearing. He must have received instructions from you that the assaults committed were not serious and you must have told him that you didn't assault Mr Chikororo.

MR MANAGA: Well I am not really disputing that that I didn't say that. I can't really tell exactly how it happened. We may have possibly hit Mr Chikororo, but I don't dispute that. Well if I say I didn't then I may be confusing myself. I just want to say exactly what happened.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You see for us to be able to grant you amnesty we have got to know from you whether you did or did not assault Mr Chikororo. We can't depend on what Mr Chikororo is going to say because Mr Chikororo could also be exaggerating the situation. Now if you, as an applicant, is unable to say what offence you are seeking amnesty before this Committee, how are we going to be of any better assistance to you?

MR MANAGA: Well I do admit that I hit Mr Chikororo. It is just that in those days there were so may people I don't think he might have escaped this kind of assault.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Now if you say you do admit that you hit Mr Chikororo how did you hit him?

MR MANAGA: Well if I remember I used my bare hand. I might have done that possibly quite often.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is that all that you can recollect, that you used your bare hands? Didn't you apply some electric shocks on any part of his body?

MR MANAGA: I can't remember that with regard to Mr Chikororo, having used the electric shocks.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was it customary for any detainee under your hands to be assaulted by you? Is it something that you would ordinarily do?

MR MANAGA: Well it was not customary that I had to do that, I am just saying what I did personally on these people. Not that I am saying other people didn't assault them.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But to your recollection did the people mentioned or referred in paragraph 15, were they ever assaulted by you now that you have had an opportunity of better reflecting?

INTERPRETER: Sorry could you repeat the question?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: To your recollection did you assault any of the persons mentioned in paragraph 15?

MR MANAGA: Yes, yes I do.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: All of them?

MR MANAGA: Except Mr Mahamba.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And why didn't you assault Mr Mahamba?

MR MANAGA: Well he wasn't very difficult. You know he just - on his arrival he said what he had to say and we realised that there was no need.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you are saying that Mr Mahamba immediately volunteered the information that you wanted or that you suspected him of?

MR MANAGA: Exactly what we were expecting, it's true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, and that's the only reason why he was never assaulted.

MR MANAGA: Well we were not able to assault anyone who was ready to cooperate. With regard to Mr Mahamba you know he wasn't so hard. Well he just told us exactly what happened.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: We've previously had evidence from one of the applicants who has appeared before us and he has stated that the reason why Mr Mahamba wasn't assaulted was because he was crippled.

MR MANAGA: Well that could have been how they thought about it but this is how we regarded the case to be, you know he was not difficult. He was ready to reveal everything.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You heard Mr Ramaligela alluding to that fact yesterday when he gave his viva voce evidence.

MR MANAGA: Yes I heard that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And you wouldn't agree with that aspect of his evidence with regard to why Mr Mahamba wasn't assaulted?

MR MANAGA: Well I can't dispute that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Alright. And then the last person that is stated here in your statement is Mr Mahumela. You said there that he was never assaulted by you. What is the position?

MR MANAGA: Well with regard to Mr Mahumela, well I didn't touch him, I didn't assault him.

MR MEYER: So do you stick to what you said here in your statement?

MR MANAGA: Yes with regard to Mr Mahumela. I think I can remember that he was working as a prosecutor and if one could just assaulted ...(indistinct) - I mean I could remember that if I had done that, easily.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Why did you not assault Mr Mahumela, he was a suspect in a matter that you had been instructed to investigate and to leave no stone unturned and to go to whatever lengths to unearth the information that was required to enable you to prefer charges against all these people?

MR MANAGA: Well it could have been because we didn't really have time to ask him or interrogate him so much.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You arrested him yet you didn't have time to interrogate him.

MR MANAGA: He was arrested - yes I wasn't personally involved in arresting him. I only got involved with him in the offices, interrogating in the offices.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you interrogate him at all, you personally?

MR MANAGA: Well I didn't personally interrogate him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you have anything to do with Mr Mahumela's arrest?

MR MANAGA: No.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You had no contact with Mr Mahumela whilst he was in detention?

MR MANAGA: Well I can't remember, well I don't remember interrogating him. He might have been there but I can't really recollect exactly as far as interrogation is concerned. I can't remember.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is it within your personal knowledge to indicate how long he was in detention?

MR MANAGA: Well I can't remember.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Meyer you may proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here, I just want some clarity. Mr Managa, when you filled in the form for the amnesty, the first, the original form, did you know that you had to make a full disclosure? Did you appreciate it?

MR MANAGA: Well when we did the first initial thing we didn't really know exactly where it was leading to. Well we didn't know it was going to end up in court or a forum like this.

ADV BOSMAN: When you filled out or signed the second supplementary statement did you know then that you had to make a full disclosure, in other words tell everything?

MR MANAGA: Well that was after we had received legal back-up.

ADV BOSMAN: My difficulty is that there you also did not mention the most important matters, why was that? That I don't understand.

MR MANAGA: Maybe there was a failure of recollection.

ADV BOSMAN: What triggered your memory? This is what I am trying to understand. What made you to remember the electric shocks and the hood and the water and the helicopter method?

CHAIRPERSON: We are not getting the interpretation through. Just please repeat your answer Mr Managa.

MR MANAGA: These are things that really happened, that some of them I could not remember, but there are some things which I can remember. You know I cannot put them chronologically because it happened a long time ago.

ADV BOSMAN: Let me put it to you this way. Did you have sight of the evidence that was led before the Human Rights Violations Committee?

MR MANAGA: Could you repeat.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have sight of the document, the transcription of the evidence that was led by the victims before the Human Rights Committee?

MR MANAGA: No, I didn't have time. I could not read it. I only heard about it on the radio that this is how it happened.

ADV BOSMAN: Has anybody at any stage told you the content of the Human Rights Violations Committee evidence?

MR MANAGA: After we had heard our legal representatives they only asked us, they told us what happened as far as the victims are concerned, they only told us verbally. That is how we were able to write our statements.

ADV BOSMAN: So when did you get your first information, more-or-less at what time did you for the first time hear what the victims had told the Human Rights Violations Committee?

MR MANAGA: It was after, it was I think after the radio evidence, it was after we had met our legal representatives.

ADV BOSMAN: But can you more-or-less put a date to it?

MR MANAGA: I can't remember. Maybe it was a year ago, I can't remember exactly. Maybe I will have to check again.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Managa are you being honest in what you are saying? Didn't you complete your application form, your first application form on the 10th of December 1996? The evidence that was adduced before the Human Rights Violations Committee was around October 1996, long before you completed your application form, the first application form.

MR MANAGA: That could be possible.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR MANAGA: I am not disputing that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: By that time you knew the version that the victims had presented before the Human Rights Violations Committee with regard pertinently to the methods of assault you had used on them when you had completed your own application form. That's before you met your lawyers. I don't know when you met your lawyer.

MR MANAGA: It is true.

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman I would like to clear something up. This document containing the evidence of people that gave evidence before the Human Rights Committee was not in possession of the applicants at the stage when they completed their amnesty application forms. This only came into our possession I would say more-or-less a month ago. I can't give an exact date.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I am aware of that Mr Meyer. What I am putting to him is that he, on his own version, says he heard it over the radio, and the radio broadcast was around October 1996.

MR MEYER: I am sorry I didn't....

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: That's all that I am putting to him. He's made it quite clear that he first came to be aware of what the victims were saying over the radio and we know that these things were carried over by the radio. Various radio stations were transmitting the evidence as it was being adduced before the Human Rights Violations Committee, and that's how, I think, quite a number of people became aware of the evidence that was tendered by the likes of Mr Farisani, Mr Posiwa and Mr Poswana, because I don't think Mr Chikororo came before the Human Rights Violations to give his version of how he was assaulted at the hands of the Venda Security Branch Police. That's the point I was trying to clarify with him. That he knew about the methods that had been used on these victims in October 1996, and his application form was completed in December 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: And it can be seen from the documents in front of us that the evidence of Messrs Farisani, Posiwa and Poswana was given on the 3rd and 4th of October 1996, two days.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you knew then what the victims were saying about how they were tortured in October '96, before you completed your first application form, is it not so?

MR MANAGA: Yes it is true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Managa, what was your objective in dealing with the detainees in the way that you have described, in other words by assaulting them and torturing them?

MR MANAGA: The main objective was to find evidence on how it happened that the police station was bombed while we were investigating that case.

MR MEYER: What kind of instructions did you have from your superior officers regarding the solving of the attack on the police station?

MR MANAGA: The instructions from the previous speaker is that we must work very hard to find those people who bombed the police station because the high-ranking officials were pressuring that we must work very hard, day and night, so that we can find them and bring them before the law.

MR MEYER: As you sit here today and you think back on what you did to them how do you feel about it?

MR MANAGA: I feel very disturbed in my heart that I did that because I assaulted them and I am apologising to their family because it was because of the work of the government of the day. I feel my heart will be settled if they can really reconcile with me because of what I did, that is why I am also speaking this in front of the Chairman and before the family of those people which we have hurt so badly while we were doing this job of assaulting and torturing. It is very painful. I understand that it is painful that is why I am speaking it before the people and I am saying let them forgive me for that.

MR MEYER: Mr Managa there is one other aspect. After the assaults had taken place some civil proceedings were instituted by the victims against the police, is that correct?

MR MANAGA: It is true. They lodged civil claims but it was something which was being dealt with, with our superiors because there were people who had so much pains.

MR MEYER: Right, but with regard to those proceedings you made a statement in which you denied any involvement or assault on the particular people.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 104, is that right.

MR MEYER: Page 104. If I can just show you the statement here.

MR MANAGA: Yes I made a statement denying that I assaulted them to avoid the civil case and because we were not having evidence from the doctors that they were assaulted. But of course we made statements to deny that we assaulted them. It is true I did that.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Managa just before I ask Mr van Rensburg, you were saying "we assaulted them...." now who were you with when these assaults and tortures took place? Who did you do it with?

MR MANAGA: Yes I was with Mr Ramaligela, the first speaker, and Mr Nesamari and sometimes we used to have people, boys, younger boys, when Mr Ramaligela is not there we sometimes used these young boys to interrogate these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember any names of those others that you utilised to assist you?

MR MANAGA: What can I say, Mr Netshivale is one of the people. The rest I can't really recollect because some of them are no longer available.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr van Rensburg do you have any questions to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman, just one or two questions.

You have just mentioned that Mr Netshivale was one of the persons that was used from time-to-time to help with the interrogation of the detainees. Can you please tell this hearing, with whom of the detainees did you personally use him for the interrogation?

MR MANAGA: I can't recall that more especially for which detainee we used him. (tape side A ends)....but I think for some of them he might have been involved.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you personally recall ever giving Mr Netshivale an instruction regarding the interrogation of the detainees?

MR MANAGA: I can't remember. I might have given him an instruction, but I can't remember.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you remember at that stage what rank did Mr Netshivale hold, or what was his position?

MR MANAGA: I can't remember whether he was a constable or a sergeant, but he wasn't a warrant officer, but he was in a lower position to a warrant officer.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Perhaps I can just put the record straight at this stage, I think under previous cross-examination I put it to one of the witnesses that during 1981 Mr Netshivale was in fact holding the rank of sergeant. That was a mistake of mine. Subsequently this morning I obtained instructions that he was in fact a constable at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Do you dispute that, that he was a constable?

MR MANAGA: If in 1981 they are saying he was a constable then it could be, it is possible.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And when you allude to young boys you allude to people like Mr Netshivale, is it not so, who were constables that you would use from time-to-time to assist in the interrogation of suspects?

MR MANAGA: There were no instructions of giving Mr Netshivale to assault people. It only happened that while we were assaulting them they were also available assaulting them at the same time.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, in your earlier evidence you said you would at times use these young boys to come and assist you to interrogate suspects if Mr Ramaligela wasn't there. What I am putting to you is when you use the term "young boys" you are referring to constables?

MR MANAGA: Yes it's because they are younger than me by birth.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Irrespective of rank?

MR MANAGA: By birth and rank because I was higher than and older than them.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Did you ever see Mr Netshivale assaulting any of the detainees during that time?

MR MANAGA: No I am not sure that I saw him specifically assaulting but he's the person who can explain. It happened long ago.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What I can't understand then Mr Managa is you say that you were assisted by people to assault and interrogate and that Mr Netshivale was one of them, yet you can't remember who he was involved with; with which detainees; whether or not he assaulted, so why mention his name?

MR MANAGA: It's because I know that he was in the Security, and most of the people who were in the Security which I know were in the interrogating team, I can't say they didn't assault them. That's why I am saying what I did. But I can't really recall, but he was also involved in the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's purely by association that you think that he might have assaulted somebody merely because he was a member of the Security Branch and at that stage most of the members of the Security Branch were involved in assaulting the detainees?

MR MANAGA: Yes we were all involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Would I then be correct if I summarise the situation to be that - and seeing that you are denying that you gave these young constables direct instructions to assault the detainees, what in fact happened was that you would assault the detainees, these young constables would come in from time-to-time, they see how you acted and they reacted to your actions by also proceeding to assault the detainees? Is that a correct situation?

MR MANAGA: I can't dispute that they could have imitated us, but I can't remember whether Mr Netshivale did that to which detainee, I can't remember that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I am not referring specifically to Mr Netshivale, I am talking about all these other young constables that you are referring to.

MR MANAGA: It is true. I cannot recall one of those young boys who assisted what we were doing in front of us. I can't remember or recall that. But I am not disputing that they were involved. Sometimes they might have done that imitating our actions, but I am unable to recall.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just interpose here I just want clarity on this. Did these young constables have free access to this room where you did the interrogations? Could they just walk in and out of the rooms where you had the interrogation?

MR MANAGA: Yes they sometimes got in our office while we were assaulting these people. They sometimes got inside and hear what we were questioning them and then also interrogated them, but they were not refused entrance.

ADV BOSMAN: But did you sometimes specifically invite them to come in and assist in the interrogation?

MR MANAGA: It's that with these young officers our office was a hall and we used to sit being so many there. We in the younger group we were staying in a hall, staying together there.

ADV BOSMAN: But I don't understand. We have heard evidence that there was an interrogation office, or interrogation room with windows and you could see if the General would be approaching, now what I would like to know is the young constables, the young boys as you called them, did you sometimes invite them into this room when you were interrogating, or would they just sort-of have free access and go there to and fro?

MR MANAGA: The office, it was not referred to as the interrogation office, it was our office where we used to work in it.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: The question is, did you at times invite them to come and assist you in interrogating the suspects that you were holding, no?

MR MANAGA: No, no, that's not true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But I thought that was your earlier evidence?

MR MANAGA: We never invited them. They used to come on their own, and while they were there we were interrogating and then they assisted in interrogating. Sometimes they should have slapped, but I cannot say who was slapping who. But I can't recall, but we were all there in the office while I was assaulting those people.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I recollect your evidence to have been that you used these young persons when Ramaligela wasn't there to assist you in interrogating these people. That's your evidence. By "these people" I would want to assume that you are referring to the suspects. That is what you said earlier on. That you would use them, and when you use somebody it means you invite that person to come and assist you. You said you used them to assist you in interrogating these people when Ramaligela wasn't there.

MR MANAGA: Let me say that sometimes with Mr Ramaligela was not yet available he used to find us continuing with the job. And even those boys were there and myself and Mr Nesamari being there continuing with interrogation. I can't dispute that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, that these constables would be there at your instance. You would request them to come in to assist you because Mr Ramaligela wouldn't be there.

MR MANAGA: I don't remember inviting them because it was there in the office and if you are asking anything then the boys could also intervene in interrogating themselves. It is something which - because we were in the same team.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Now if Mr Ramaligela would not be there who would be the officer holding a higher rank amongst the investigating team between yourself and Mr Nesamari?

MR MANAGA: I think it's myself because I was a warrant officer, but I can't remember what position Mr Nesamari held. I think it was myself who could take the information to Mr Ramaligela.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And you said nothing when the constables participated in assaulting the suspects in your presence?

MR MANAGA: No, I didn't say anything because I was also assaulting.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Mr van Rensburg you may continue.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

I just want to follow-up on that previous question. The reason why you did not intervene when these young constables were assaulting the detainees was in fact that you expected that kind of behaviour from the young policemen, is that not so?

MR MANAGA: The way in which we were assaulting them I think I am the person who was assaulting them heavily, but these young boys were just assisting but I was personally involved but I didn't intervene or dispute them while they were assaulting them.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: The question is, is that was because you expected that kind of behaviour. You expected them to also participate in assaulting the detainees.

MR MANAGA: In the police act by that time we did sign even forms to prevent us from assaulting people, but assaulting, if you were found assaulting steps could be taken but by then I didn't prevent them doing that, but I know if I did it excessively we will be in danger.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Just respond to a simple question. You said nothing, you did not object to the constables participating in the assaulting of detainees because it was a conduct that you expected of them. You approved of that conduct, yes or no?

MR MANAGA: Yes we used to do the same act. I did not prevent them. I should have made a mistake there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

One of the previous witnesses gave evidence to the effect that it was part of the strategy of the police at the time to have these detainees interrogated by different people and at different places. Do you agree that that is the correct situation?

MR MANAGA: Yes it's true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you, as the person in charge of the interrogation, was the one responsible for arranging that support, the other policemen to come and interrogate them in terms of that policy, isn't that so?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat your question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You, as the investigating officer in charge, was responsible to see that there were enough men, these young constables or whoever, arranged, in order to proceed with the interrogation along those policies of changing frequently and changing the places.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Before he answers Mr van Rensburg, is there any evidence that he was the investigating officer in charge? Isn't the evidence that Mr - I think Mr Ramushwana was the one who was charged with this kind of investigation and the person who worked immediately under him was Mr Ramaligela. You would only be in charge in the absence of Mr Ramaligela. So it would be unfair to put that kind of a question to him. Rephrase your question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

During the times then that you were in charge of the interrogation were you not also the person responsible for arranging for these young policemen to come and relieve you according to that policy of many policemen interrogating the detainees?

MR MANAGA: It was not a policy, it was only because if - it was not a matter of calling them. We were working together. We only differ when it goes up to the higher levels. But we were working together in the same office.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have also said that the interrogation took place at different places. It wasn't always in the same office. Now if a detainee was going to be interrogated at some place other than at that office were you involved in arranging the policemen or organising who was going to do that interrogation at any stage?

MR MANAGA: No it's not true. I didn't do that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now who would be responsible for such arrangements in those circumstances?

MR MANAGA: I can't remember exactly who used to do the arrangements.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg. Ms Mtanga do you have any questions to ask the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes I do Chairperson, thank you.

Mr Managa would I be correct to say that my understanding of your evidence and that of Mr Ramaligela, you, Mr Ramaligela and Mr Nesamari were the central people in interrogating and torturing the victims mentioned in paragraph 15 of your affidavit, your supplementary application?

MR MANAGA: True.

MS MTANGA: And that your interrogation and torture was focusing on the suspects for the bombing of the police station, am I right?

MR MANAGA: Well that was about investigation as to who was responsible in bombing the police station.

MS MTANGA: So will I be correct to conclude that the three of you were tasked with the interrogation and investigation of that bomb attack?

MR MANAGA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: So any suspects who would have been arrested on suspicion of being involved in the bomb attack would have come under your team, am I right?

MR MANAGA: Yes, it is true, they could have come to us, yes.

MS MTANGA: Is it correct then that Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela were also part of - they were also suspected of bombing the police station and were placed under your team for interrogation and torture?

MR MANAGA: Well during the investigation we discovered that they were also linked.

MS MTANGA: And you also interrogated them and tortured them like other suspects, am I right?

MR MANAGA: Not inasfar as we did with Mr Farisani. I don't think - yes torture is torture, we can't really distinguish between - but I think it was worse with regard to Mr Farisani.

MS MTANGA: Did you torture Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela Mr Managa?

MR MANAGA: Well personally I didn't torture Mr Mahumela. I don't dispute with regard to Mr Chikororo. I might have done that possibly. However, when it comes to Mr Mahumela well I didn't do anything.

MS MTANGA: I am putting it to you now that Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela will give evidence that you were the person, together with Mr Ramaligela and Mr Nesamari central in their torturing. You even went on to pull Mr Mahumela's beard. And you were also involved in the pulling of hair of Mr Posiwa and Mr Poswana from their head and from their private parts. Do you deny this?

MR MANAGA: Well with regard to their private parts I don't think it's true. When it comes to Mr Poswana I do agree that I did pull his hair. With regard to Mr Mahumela no I didn't do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry Ms Mtanga, you say with regard to pulling hair from the private parts you don't think it's true. What does that mean? Does it mean that it may be true but you can't remember doing it or are you denying that you pulled hair from their private parts?

MR MANAGA: Well it might have happened, I can't remember. I might have....

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You know I am personally finding your evidence to be personally confusing and disconcerting. You keep on saying it could be true, it could not be true. We are here to deal with facts. We are here to deal with something that you can particularly remember pertinently with issues involving how people were tortured. That's the offence for which you are seeking amnesty. We need the facts. We need you to make a full disclosure in relation to those facts. If you don't we can't give you amnesty.

Now did you torture Mr Mahumela by pulling out hair from his private parts, yes or no?

MR MANAGA: Well with regard to his private parts I didn't touch - no we didn't reach the private parts. Well maybe with regard to Mr Poswana I remember pulling his beard.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I am talking about Mr Mahumela for now.

MR MANAGA: No.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you torture him at all?

MR MANAGA: Well I didn't torture, I can't remember.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Were you ever present when he was interrogated by the other members of the investigating team which were tasked with investigating the Sibasa bombing?

MR MANAGA: Well you know sometimes I was there, other times I wasn't there, but most of the times I was there.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you witness him being tortured by any of your members?

MR MANAGA: I can't recall that. I can't say I saw them.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Managa are you able to say to this Committee whether the people you have tortured in your career at the Security Branch, whether they are only the victims who have appeared before this Committee, are there other people besides them whom you have tortured in your career? ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Before you respond, where is that getting to Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I will come to that Chairperson. Alright...

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: It might be to his detriment. He is applying for amnesty in respect of what - yes, obviously you can give an explanation of what kind of direction will be taken by that line of questioning insofar as the offences for which he is seeking amnesty is before us.

MS MTANGA: Alright. Let me change my line of questioning Chairperson.

Mr Managa why did you apply for amnesty for your torture of Dr Farisani, Mr Poswana, Mr Posiwa, why did you apply for amnesty for those people?

MR MANAGA: Well it is because I tortured them. I assaulted them, it is true, when we were busy investigating. That was before we could, you know, get the way out, they were still denying and they were not really co-operating. That is why I just want to ask for forgiveness in my way of torture during those days.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa is it not true that you have only applied in respect of Dr Farisani, Reverend Poswana, Reverend Posiwa and Mr Ravele because they are the only victims who appeared before the Human Rights Commission and revealed the tortures, isn't that right?

MR MEYER: I object to this question. It is not correct that only they appeared before the Commission. Or it's not correct shall I say that they are the only people he's applying for amnesty for Mr Chairman, he's also applying for other people who did not appear before the Human Rights Committee.

MS MTANGA: Who are those people?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: That's Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela amongst others.

MR MEYER: Yes, and also Mr Ravele.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Ravele give evidence at the ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: His sister did.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: His sister did. She didn't know the particular methods that were used. I mean whatever evidence she gave was hearsay. He wasn't there personally. Re-phrase your question maybe to find out why he is applying for amnesty in respect of the persons that he, in his main application and his subsequent supplementary affidavit he said he never assaulted. Maybe you should approach it that way.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Managa why are you applying for amnesty in respect of Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela whom you say you never assaulted?

MR MANAGA: Well it is because when I ask for this kind of forgiveness it was due to the police policy and they were brought to us, and I think it is because we have to ask for forgiveness because they might have experienced the same way that other people experienced.

MS MTANGA: Regarding the people who were present when Mr Mahumela and Mr Chikororo were tortured can you tell this Committee who is John Managa?

INTERPRETER: Could you rephrase your question please.

MS MTANGA: Who is John Managa?

MR MANAGA: He is my young, late brother.

MS MTANGA: Did he ever assist you in torturing the victims whom you are applying for?

MR MANAGA: I can't say yes or no. I can't remember, he might have helped.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: How can you not remember Mr Managa? Whenever a question is put to you, you don't remember. Who is to remember if you can't remember? Wouldn't you remember if a relative assisted you in assaulting suspects who were under your control?

MR MANAGA: Let me put it this way. You must remember that as we were working there you know there is a lot of hustle and bustle, confusion, the torture went on excessively and it was very difficult to, inasfar as the whole group one cannot dispute that so and so was tortured because some of them may have been involved because they were involved in kicking and hitting them. He might have been helpful. That is why we are asking for this kind of forgiveness.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was John Managa a member of the Security Branch?

MR MANAGA: Yes it is true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was he one of the constables that you would from time-to-time invite in torturing the people who were under your control during your interrogation?

MR MANAGA: Well he used to be there most of the times because when the other group was commissioned to go to the other places he was also around. Yes he was around.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And he would be called at your instance, you would invite him?

MR MANAGA: Can you just repeat - John, are you talking about John?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes I am talking about John Managa, would he participate in assaulting - let me finish, just wait until I finish, would he participate in any of the assaults on any of the victims at your instance? Would you request for him to come and assist in the interrogation of suspects?

MR MANAGA: Let me put it this way. In those days as they were being tortured, as I said, some of these people were just around, they will also be invited just to give them slaps and you know beatings and tortures.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I know you have that evidence. Would you invite him to assist in the interrogation of suspects? We've already heard your evidence that they would only be invited to assist if Mr Ramaligela would not be there. And if Mr Ramaligela was not there you were in charge, you were the senior officer in charge. Would you, as the senior officer in charge invite him to participate or to assist you in interrogating the suspects?

MR MANAGA: Well I couldn't really just say as he was around I couldn't just say you don't have to be involved. So there was no way in which we could stop him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Just try and be direct and short in responding to questions. It will assist us in moving this process a little faster. Would you, or would you not invite him? You were the person who was in charge.

MR MANAGA: Yes I will do that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, try and then to just confine yourself to questions being put to you without having to elaborate on your answers because in doing so not only are you giving us more work to do you are also doing some disservice also to your evidence.

MR MANAGA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Managa I put it to you that Mr Mahumela will testify that you were personally involved in his torture and at some point you handed him over to John, your brother, after you felt that he was a better person to deal with him, and you continued with torturing him, what do you say to this?

MR MANAGA: Well with regard to torturing he might have been tortured by John himself, not myself.

MS MTANGA: You have also testified that you applied electrical shocks on Dr Farisani, Reverend Poswana and Reverend Posiwa, did you apply electrical shocks on their private parts?

MR MANAGA: Well we didn't reach the private parts.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa I have asked the same question from Mr Ramaligela and I would like you to answer, why was Dr Farisani arrested for the bomb attack? What were the grounds for arresting him?

MR MANAGA: What I can remember is that Mr Farisani was arrested because it was during our investigation that certain people went to his place where he was staying and Mr Posiwa was there who then took them to Mahamba and we thought there was a link that Mr Farisani was knowledgeable about what was happening as far as the bombing of the police station was concerned. That is why he was arrested.

MS MTANGA: Where did you get that information about the link?

MR MANAGA: Investigating, as we were investigating, dealing with the case well the information - I can't say exactly how it came. Some people were involved like Mr Ramaligela will tell us that this is the further information that has just occurred.

MS MTANGA: If you heard the evidence of Mr Ramaligela yesterday he testified that the grounds for arresting Dr Farisani were contained in the statement given by Mr Posiwa where he implicated Dr Farisani in the planning of the bomb attack, do you agree with this?

MR MANAGA: Yes I agree with that.

MS MTANGA: Do you agree that the grounds for arresting Dr Farisani came from the evidence given by Reverend Posiwa?

MR MANAGA: Yes it might be so.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: The statement, not the evidence.

MS MTANGA: The statement.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Made.

MR MANAGA: Yes it's true.

MS MTANGA: Do you agree that the statement made by Reverend Posiwa was made during his torture, after he had been arrested?

MR MANAGA: Yes, yes it was while he was being interrogated and assaulted.

MS MTANGA: Are you aware that Dr Farisani was arrested before Reverend Posiwa?

MR MANAGA: I am not sure who was arrested first.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa Dr Farisani will testify that he was one of the first people to be arrested. To be precise the first person who was arrested for the bomb attack was Mr Mophe, Mr Chikororo and Mr Rachitanga and he followed that group. He was the fourth person to be arrested, long before Reverend Posiwa had many statement concerning him. What do you say to this?

MR MANAGA: There is nothing that I can dispute. But what I know is that while we were working sometimes they have files, because people like Mr Farisani used to have files, while when you are reading the files you can find that he is linked to various information. Sometimes it happened that way.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa I put it to you that Dr Farisani will testify that at the time you arrested him you had no grounds, or evidence, linking him to the bombing. You merely arrested him because of his political activities which had nothing to do with the bomb attack and therefore you had no grounds for arresting him. What do you say to this?

MR MANAGA: They arrest of Dr Farisani is that I was investigating the bombing case and it was said that two people went to his home and then we took it from there that Dr Farisani might be knowing something in connection with the freedom fighters who are infiltrating the country.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But your evidence earlier on has been that you arrested him because you got information linking him to the bombing of the police station. When you made the arrest you already had that information. It was the basis of your arrest.

MR MANAGA: Yes it's true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that when you arrested him, if he was arrested first, before Reverend Posiwa, you had no basis for arresting him? What is it that you had that linked him to the bombing of the police station?

MR MANAGA: If I can remember well his arrest was because we have received information that people went to his home and those people found that Dr Farisani wasn't there.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR MANAGA: And those people were taken to Reverend Mahamba's place and then he was arrested on that ground I suppose, because we were investigating what happened, and in order to find out what those people were looking for in Dr Farisani's place.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But didn't you get that information from Reverend Posiwa?

MR MANAGA: This thing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was it actually, just to intervene, I think it was put to the witness that yesterday there was evidence, and then he agreed that that might be the case. Initially he said that Dean Farisani was arrested because there was information about people going to his house, and then Ms Mtanga said well yesterday this is what Mr Ramaligela said. And then he said that might be so. It wasn't his own evidence as such, other than he confirmed that it might be so.

But in any event we are really not going to be making the finding on the validity of an arrest, what we are concerned with is the torture, so this is actually a side issue to the subject of this application for amnesty. We are interested in what happened after the arrest. That's what they have applied for amnesty for. They haven't applied for amnesty in respect of the arrest of these detainees. Continue.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson I would like to respond to the remark you have just made. It is the view of the victims that they were arrested - at the time they were arrested there were no grounds for them to be arrested. The police were on a fishing expedition and as such they were tortured until they had to formulate some kind of story for the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh you are saying that basically there was an element of malice.

MS MTANGA: And if there were no political grounds for arresting them they couldn't have had political motive to torture them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You may continue with that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, you are addressing the response which Managa has made to questions made particularly under paragraph 10A and 10B, is it not so?

MS MTANGA: It is so, Chairperson, thank you.

Mr Managa Mr Mahumela maintains that you were part of the team that tortured him and you have emphatically denied this, but he still would like to know where was he on the 12th of November to the 14th of November, because he was unconscious and unaware of his whereabouts? Are you able to tell this Committee of Mr Mahumela's whereabouts?

MR MANAGA: No that I can't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: You say from the 12th to the 14th that he was unconscious?

MS MTANGA: He was unconscious from 12 November 1981 to the 14th of November 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall Mr Mahumela being unconscious for that period of time?

MR MANAGA: I can't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you can't remember, if he was unconscious, if he was lying there unconscious in your detention would you have remembered it? Or is that the sort of thing you would forget? I mean it was for two days, three days. How can you forget something like that if he was unconscious?

MR MANAGA: No he was never unconscious. I can't remember seeing him being unconscious.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Ms Mtanga before you proceed I see now you are dealing with your instructions with regard to Mr Mahumela and his condition, that's what you are putting to the witness. I thought you were still going to explore what the Chair has now allowed you to explore with regard to the questions that you wanted to clear with Mr Managa in relation to the reasonableness of Mr Farisani's arrest.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, I lost track of my questions.

Mr Managa, you have agreed that the basis for arresting Dr Farisani was the statement made by Reverend Posiwa when he was being tortured by yourselves, are you able to tell this Committee, if Dr Farisani was arrested before Reverend Posiwa what other basis was there for arresting Dr Farisani?

MR MANAGA: What I still remember, which is still coming to my mind, is that Dean Farisani when he was arrested he was arrested because of those people, because we were asking those people, we were asking whether he knows the people who came to his home. He said no, those people who came, I wasn't there. But he was telling the truth that the people came during his absence.

MS MTANGA: Who was telling the truth Mr Managa?

MR MANAGA: Dean Farisani, but the way he was explaining we realised that he was telling - I can say he was telling the truth because on the arrival of those people Mr Posiwa was found and Dean Farisani wasn't there. He was telling the truth. And Farisani, said, and I think Reverend Posiwa would have said, when the two people arrived Dean Farisani was there.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa you are not answering my question. I want to know the grounds that you had for arresting Dr Farisani, what grounds did you have besides Reverend Posiwa's statement?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You can't even begin to refer to Reverend Posiwa's statement if he has admitted that Reverend Posiwa was arrested after Dean Farisani. The reason why you arrested Mr Farisani was because you have this information that linked him to the bombing of the Sibasa police station. Now what information did you have that linked him to the bombing of the police station at the time of effecting an arrest?

MR MANAGA: If I can still remember well, although I cannot put it exactly in a way, maybe you will not be able to understand that but you will - I am sure that Reverend Farisani, while we were investigating the case it was found - if Farisani was arrested later, it is said that two people came to Dr Farisani not following Posiwa's statement, I think it's because of those two people, because we heard that there were two people who went to his home, because by that time we were thoroughly investigating after the bombing to find out whether there were no people who infiltrated, coming in and out, but it was found that two people went to his home. That is what I think is what resulted in his arrest.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Who told you that two people had come to Farisani's home? Was that Reverend Posiwa?

MR MANAGA: It is from the statement of Mr Posiwa.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: That's right, I know that. But now Mr Posiwa - you've just admitted, Ms Mtanga put it to you that Mr Posiwa was arrested after Mr Farisani had been arrested, and you agreed that that was so ...(intervention)

MR MANAGA: I can't remember that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: In fact Ms Mtanga has put it to you that that is the evidence that will be given to this Committee by Mr Posiwa and Dean Farisani that it was him, meaning Dean Farisani was arrested first. So if you relied on the statement of Reverend Posiwa when arresting Mr Farisani it doesn't tally, you will agree. You couldn't have known about two persons having gone to Mr Farisani's place because that information was as a result of the statement obtained from Mr Posiwa when he made that statement whilst he was being interrogated by you. So that's why we are very confused about the evidence you are giving now.

If you say the reason for arresting him was because of the information that was obtained from the statement made by Mr Posiwa, obviously Mr Posiwa was not yet in the picture when Mr Farisani was arrested. So what reason did you have to arrest him as a suspect linking him to the bombing of the Sibasa Police Station?

MR MANAGA: The Committee must forgive me. I can't really recall who was arrested first I can put it clearly. But what happened is that one of the things which confirmed the incidence is that in Dr Farisani two people went there and then we take it from there but I am not sure who was first arrested.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you do again concede that the information that came to light that linked Mr Farisani to the two people who had come into his house was the information that came from the statement made by Mr Posiwa? You agree to that?

MR MANAGA: It might be true. I cannot put it clearly now.

CHAIRPERSON: You see it's apparent from the statement made by Mr Posiwa that Dean Farisani was arrested before he was because on page 98 he says:

So I mean that's contained in the statement of Mr Posiwa himself. So it's quite clear that Dean Farisani was arrested before Reverend Posiwa. Reverend Posiwa, from page 102, was arrested on the 12th of December 1981, but we don't know the actual date when Dean Farisani was arrested, but it was clearly before Mr Posiwa, because this is what Mr Posiwa himself says in the statement. So it's impossible then that information received from Mr Posiwa, after his arrest, could have led to the arrest of Mr Farisani. It's just impossible unless somebody had a time machine and went backwards in time, it can't happen.

So there must have been some other - well not must have, well we want to know whether there was any other reason, if any other reason existed for the arrest of Dean Farisani because we've heard from Ms Mtanga that it's been put to you that he says that there was no grounds at all. He believes the only reason why he was arrested was because he had been involved in some political activity in the past, but not specifically linked to the attack on the police station.

MR MANAGA: I agree with that, but it wasn't clear that he was linked with the bombing. That is why we first made investigations from the suspects.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So at the time when you arrested Dean Farisani you had no information linking him to the Sibasa Police Station bombing?

MR MANAGA: There was no evidence before we could question him. We just suspected that he might be having evidence.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: On what grounds did you suspect him of being involved in the Sibasa Police Station bombing?

MR MANAGA: Sometimes we used to read the files that were in the files, that person was involved in the liberation movements so we realised that he could be involved in assisting the liberation movements, because we see that he is having a file we think he can be linked.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR MANAGA: ...in the bombing of the station.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And as a Security policeman you must have had a number of files of persons around Venda whom you suspected of having links with the liberation movement, is it not so?

MR MANAGA: That's true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Why choose Mr Farisani out of the many people that you suspected of either being associated with the liberation movements, of being members of the liberation movements?

MR MANAGA: It was not only Dean Farisani. We also arrested others.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. I further would like to put it to you Mr Managa, that the arrest of Mr Mahamba, whom in your evidence you have said co-operated with you and that is the reason why you didn't torture him, that his arrest also followed Dr Farisani's arrest. That is Dr Farisani was arrested before Mr Mahamba. What do you say to this?

MR MANAGA: I think the first person to be arrested - if I remember it was Mr Mahamba.

MS MTANGA: So do you dispute that Dr Farisani was arrested before Reverend Mahamba?

MR MANAGA: I am not denying but it's because I am unable to put them clearly, but I think the first person to be arrested was Mr Mahamba, I mean between Farisani and Mahamba.

MS MTANGA: You have also testified that ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Before you proceed, you have put it to him are you going to lead evidence with regard to that?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson. Reverend Mahamba and Dr Farisani will testify that Dr Farisani was arrested by yourselves before Reverend Mahamba, so the information to arrest Dr Farisani couldn't have come from Reverend Mahamba as you have stated before.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Are you in a position to put it to him as to what Mr Mahamba was saying when he was arrested?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson Reverend Mahamba was arrested on the 26th of November 1981.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You will note that when you check paragraph 27 on page 47 that's exactly what the witness is saying.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson. Mr Managa do you agree that Dr Farisani was already arrested by the 26th of November?

MR MANAGA: On the dates, no, I can't remember.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa are you able to tell this Committee who were the first people you arrested regarding this bomb attack?

MR MANAGA: After the bombing there were other people who were detained.

MS MTANGA: Was Dr Farisani amongst them?

MR MANAGA: Yes he was one of the people who was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga do you perhaps, it might help, do you have any information or can it be recalled the date on which Dean Farisani was arrested?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson Dr Farisani is not certain about the date but it is his evidence that by the 11th and 12th of November he was already arrested by the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so by the 11th and 12th he says that he was already arrested.

MS MTANGA: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I was just trying to check my notes because this is one point that we were able to get clarity from Mr Ramaligela, he was able to remember that I think when Dr Farisani was arrested it was before Mr Ramushwana assumed command, and he placed Mr Ramushwana's assumption of command on the 10th of November 1981. So Dr Farisani was arrested before the 10th of November, it was immediately before....

INTERPRETER: Speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Whilst I am talking don't punch in because it switches off my microphone. So at least we now have an approximate of when Dr Farisani was arrested. He was arrested on the 9th or on the 10th but before Mr Ramushwana took over from Mr Sofuwa, which we are able to establish from Mr Ramaligela to have been on the 10th of November 1981.

MS MTANGA: Yes it is so Chairperson, I thank you for your assistance.

Mr Managa I had also asked you a question regarding the whereabouts of Mr Mahumela on the 12th and the 14th of November 1981, are you able to tell this Committee?

MR MANAGA: I can't recall with regard to those dates as to his whereabouts.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that after his arrest that he was unconscious?

MS MTANGA: Till after his arrest, yes.

MR MANAGA: I can't recall.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination Mr Meyer.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: Just a few questions Mr Chairman.

Mr Managa the two people that you are talking about which you had information about that they visited Dean Farisani's house, you only mentioned the two people, which two people were they? Even if you don't know their names can you tell us a bit more about them and how are they relevant to the arrest of Mr Farisani?

MR MANAGA: Well these two people, freedom fighters, I can remember one person was Mmbegene Kone, he's one of the freedom fighters. There were two.

MR MEYER: What information did you have with regard to the vehicle of the Lutheran Church?

MR MANAGA: With regard to the vehicle it was during the time when - I can remember that it was during the - mentioned that these people had to be conveyed and how after the bombing of the police station, that there had to be transport available and there was transport available after the bombing of the police station, the Lutheran Church van and a kombi. That is the information that we were able to extract on our investigation.

MR MEYER: What was Dean Farisani's position in the Church?

MR MANAGA: Mr Dean was the elderly person in the Church with regard to the pastors, namely Poswana and Posiwa.

MR MEYER: At the stage when you were investigating the bombing of the police station were you looking only for the people who were physically involved in the attack, in other words the people who fired the firearms and rockets and what have you, or were you also looking for anyone who might be involved in the attack in some or other way?

MR MANAGA: Well we were looking for people who were also able to assist who had meetings in the planning and also with regard to the conveying of these people leading to the police station bombing. That was the investigation that we were looking for.

MR MEYER: Is it correct, for instance, that Reverend Posiwa was later convicted on a charge of aiding and harbouring terrorists and sentenced for that?

MR MANAGA: Sorry could you just repeat the previous question, could you just repeat.

MR MEYER: Is it correct that Reverend Posiwa was later on found guilty on a charge of aiding and harbouring terrorists and received a prison sentence for that?

MR MANAGA: If I still remember the Court found him guilty for the aforementioned. I can't remember again exactly how the Court presented - I didn't make a follow-up as to how it went on. I think he was not charged on that, this Mr Poswana. That's how I am able to reflect on that.

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's 11H00, we'll take the short tea adjournment at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe do you have any questions to ask the applicant?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes thank you Chairperson. I just have one or two issues that I would need to be clarified on by Mr Managa.

Mr Managa with regard to the torture of Mr Farisani, do you remember whether in any of the interrogating sessions that you had with Mr Farisani whether there was any blood that came out of any part of his body?

MR MANAGA: I can't remember blood coming from any part of his body.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Before the Human Rights Violations Committee Mr Farisani testified that pursuant to him being assaulted by you he actually bled from his mouth.

MR MANAGA: I can't remember, I don't remember blood coming.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Are you saying you never saw blood coming from his mouth?

MR MANAGA: I am saying that. I never saw blood.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. And that he suffered visible injuries one of which was a swollen eye which made him not to be able to see, it was visibly swollen as a result of your assault, do you recall that incident?

MR MANAGA: Well that could have happened as we were beating him using our fists. I can't really dispute that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was there a time or an occasion when you transported him to a place called Park Station where you applied electrical shocks, I think on his ear-lobes?

MR MANAGA: Chairperson I am not sure if you are referring to Park Station, Johannesburg Park Station or where?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, it's not indicated whether that Park Station is the Park Station in Johannesburg or a Park Station around Venda, but do you recall taking him to a place called Park Station?

MR MANAGA: No I can't remember.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was he ever taken outside Venda?

MR MANAGA: Well I never conveyed him any place other than Venda.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. And with regard to Mr Posiwa his statement, or the evidence led before the Human Rights Violations Committee was that there were approximately eight policemen who took part in the initial interrogation, and that one of those policemen was yourself. Do you recall that?

MR MANAGA: Well they could have counted us up to eight. I can't dispute that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Now this is when he was initially arrested. Don't you remember how many of you were there when he was initially arrested?

MR MANAGA: No Chairperson I cannot recall as to how many we were.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was it something that you would do ordinarily in having to have people outside the central investigating team accompanying you when you would go to effect an arrest of a suspect?

MR MANAGA: Well we would go out and arrest them if it was necessary.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Would you involve members outside of the investigating team? That's my question.

MR MANAGA: I can't remember, but what I can only remember is during the time when Ravele was arrested - when we had invited the Mobile Unit. I can only remember the incident in which Mr Ravele was involved. But usually we would use our normal staff, Security staff.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: It was also his evidence that when he requested to be given medical assistance you personally refused to accede to his request. Do you remember that?

MR MANAGA: I cannot remember disputing or saying that they could not be taken to the doctor.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I am talking about Mr Posiwa in particular.

MR MANAGA: No I cannot remember.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: He also gave evidence that when you pulled out the hair from his body, it has now been alleged from Ms Mtanga that he will say actually the hair pulled out was from his private parts, that blood actually came out from the hair roots. Do you remember witnessing such an incident?

MR MANAGA: Well with regard to Mr Posiwa I cannot remember, but I think with regard to Mr Poswana I pulled his hair.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. You didn't pull Mr Posiwa's hair?

MR MANAGA: Well what I can remember is only with regard to Mr Poswana who had long hair and long beard.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, he actually says you pulled hair from all over his body. It wasn't because his hair was longer or anything. Did you or did you not do that? If you can recall doing that to Mr Poswana surely you should be able to recall whether you did the same thing with Mr Posiwa?

MR MANAGA: I didn't do that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: When Mr Posiwa was assaulted was Mr Ramaligela present?

MR MANAGA: Yes he was with me.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Do you recall how many times, or how many days it took you to interrogate Mr Posiwa?

MR MANAGA: It could have taken two days during the interrogation.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Can you remember over how many minutes or hours each session lasted during those two days?

MR MANAGA: Well I don't want to lie, I can't have a direct estimation as to how many hours.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: In the absence of Mr Ramaligela was it common practice for you to report to him of what you would have done to the suspects whilst he was away? Would you give a report to him as your immediate superior?

MR MANAGA: I will give a report if we had seen something very suspicious in regard to the investigation. That was only the time when I would be able to do that. I don't remember what I did in his absence.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you report to Mr Ramaligela with regards to the methods of torture that you would have used in his absence when conducting interrogations of suspects in particular the ones referred to in paragraph 15?

MR MANAGA: No, I don't remember doing that. I didn't report that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You didn't make any reports to Mr Ramushwana did you?

MR MANAGA: No I didn't.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Those were left to your immediate superior who was Mr Ramaligela, am I correct in assuming that?

MR MANAGA: If we had discovered any other thing we would inform Mr Ramaligela but I can't remember.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramaligela was your immediate superior, am I correct in assuming that?

MR MANAGA: It is true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Managa do you know that Dean Farisani was taken to the doctor?

MR MANAGA: Well I am quite aware that he was taken to the hospital.

ADV BOSMAN: And are you aware of the fact that it was as a result of the assaults?

MR MANAGA: It could be possible.

ADV BOSMAN: But why do you think he was taken to the doctor?

MR MANAGA: It is due to the report that I could not be able to see, he could have been taken to the hospital because of that.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you think that any of the other persons who had been assaulted was in need of medical attention, because you testified that they were "heavily assaulted"?

MR MANAGA: If they were badly injured then they deserved medication, they could have been sent there.

ADV BOSMAN: Now if you look at paragraph 49 on page 64 of your statement Mr Managa why did you say there were no serious injuries or necessity to receive medical treatment? Do you have it on page 64, paragraph 49. You see it reads there:

Why did you say that?

MR MANAGA: Well it is due to my own judgement, the way I had an observation on the appearance, well I just assumed that they didn't deserve any medication.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't really follow your evidence now because I've put it to you that you said they were seriously assaulted. I asked you whether they were in need of medical attention and you conceded that they were and now you say you did not think so. It's confusing. Can't you clarify that?

MR MANAGA: Let me say as we were dealing with them, assaulting them, if they didn't complain through their station commander we will deal with the person considerably if they demanded that we will be able to say through the special commander these persons are complaining then they will be taken to the hospital. That was permissible. If they didn't complain then there was no need. I can't say anymore than that.

ADV BOSMAN: From your own observation, from your own observation, thinking back and taking into account the manner in which they were assaulted objectively seen do you think they were in need of medical attention?

MR MANAGA: Yes in my judgement I think they deserved medication.

ADV BOSMAN: So I will put the question again in a different way. Why did you say that there were no serious injuries and that it was not necessary for them to receive medical attention?

MR MANAGA: Because these people were not really beaten in such a way that they were so swollen, evidently swollen, we will just clap them only.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't take that any further. Thank you.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Flowing from what my colleague has just put to you I am quite intrigued by your testimony. You say you wrote that these people did not necessitate to receive medical treatment because there were no visible injuries and they didn't complain to your superiors. You go on at paragraph 42 to state, as a fact, that no person was ever seriously assaulted. Interestingly, however, during your testimony you kept on stating that these people were severely beating. I am quoting you verbatim when you were stressing the fact that you did not assault Mr Mahamba and that you do not recall having assaulted Mr Mahumela you conceded that you knew about the others because they were severely beaten.

MR MANAGA: Well what I am admitting is that people like Farisani, Poswana, Posiwa were really severely beaten by me but I don't remember anything - although we did beat them if when being visited at the cells and it was reported that they were sick they would be taken to the hospital. But because they didn't really complain as far as their injuries were concerned well we were just investigating, we just carried on with our deed.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes I am aware of the fact that because they didn't complain you didn't take them to hospital. You, however, were aware then that you had severely beaten them. When you completed this application form which required you to disclose the truth of your participation in relation to those assaults, you stated as a fact that they were not seriously assaulted when you knew that you had severely beaten them.

MR MANAGA: Well with regard to bare hand slapping one will really remember, but it may be possible that it was an internal injury. However what really surprised me was that they didn't complain. They didn't deserve any hospitality ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I am not interested in the fact that they didn't complain Mr Managa. I am interested in what is appearing here in your application form which you completed with the assistance of your legal representative. You stated as a fact, as a fact, that no person who was ever interrogated by you, in particular the persons alluded to in paragraph 15, that none of them were ever seriously assaulted when you knew that you had severely assaulted them. You knew as a fact because you are the one who conducted those assaults. You committed the assaults. You knew that it was just not a question of minor assaults. You have testified before us that save for Mr Mahumela and Mr Mahamba the others were severely beaten by you. You knew then, when you were completing this application form, that you had seriously assaulted these persons. Why did you put in an incorrect information on your application form on facts which were within your personal knowledge?

MR MANAGA: Well anyway as we are saying this we are putting it across to the Committee as to what happened. I might have said then that or I am not disputing that, I am telling you exactly that they were severely beaten.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Then why didn't you reflect that in your application form when you knew you had to disclose the truth?

MR MANAGA: Well I knew that I had to disclose the truth - well it might have escaped my attention. I don't think really I can make anything perfect. That might have escaped my attention. Anyway I did beat them severely I can't deny that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Managa this civil case that was brought by Reverend Posiwa were you a defendant in that matter? Were you cited as a defendant?

MR MANAGA: I can't recall. Anyway there were a number of names that were put.

CHAIRPERSON: So in that case Reverend Posiwa was the plaintiff. I take it probably the responsible Minister in the Venda government was a defendant and then a number of individuals were also defendants, is that the position?

MR MANAGA: Yes it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And you can't remember if you were one of the defendants?

MR MANAGA: Well I might have been part of a group because we were responsible for beating them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Because you also made the statement on page 164, was that made for purposes of that civil case for addressing the issues in that civil case? 104, 104, sorry.

MR MANAGA: It is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember how much you were sued for? What was the plaintiff claiming in that matter for damages?

MR MANAGA: Well they were claiming for damage, that was severe assault that they endured and the punishment and the assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what was your objective in telling an untruth in this statement?

MR MANAGA: Well with regard to the statement I do agree that it was a false statement because we were doing it due to the claims that now, it was not really truly reflected as to how they were assaulted and things like this.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to that civil case?

MR MANAGA: I can't tell you exactly as to what resulted thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any political objective in making a false statement and if so what was it?

MR MANAGA: Could you repeat the question please.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any political objective in making that false statement and if so what was it?

MR MANAGA: Well just to support the fact that the claim should not be against us, that's just what I can say.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Nothing thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg any questions arising?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga any questions arising?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Managa that concludes your testimony. You may stand down.

MR MANAGA: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

APPLICATION NO: AM3730/96

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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. I call Mr Nesamari to testify. He will make use of the Interpreter.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: Mr Nesamari can we start off, would you put your current occupation and your residential address on record.

MR NESAMARI: Now I am a captain in the Police Service. I am working in the Far North area as a staff officer. I am staying at Thohoyandou, Block P East.

MR MEYER: During the early 1980's is it correct that you were a member of the Venda National Force?

MR NESAMARI: Yes.

MR MEYER: And which branch of the national force were you with?

MR NESAMARI: I was attached to the Security Branch.

MR MEYER: Now it's common cause that during October 1981 there was an attack on the Sibasa Police Station, is that correct?

MR NESAMARI: Yes it's correct.

MR MEYER: Were you involved in investigating this attack?

MR NESAMARI: Yes I was part of the investigations.

MR MEYER: What was your rank at that stage?

MR NESAMARI: I was a constable.

MR MEYER: Now following on the attack on the police station a number of arrests were made, is that correct?

MR NESAMARI: Yes that is correct.

MR MEYER: Were you involved in those arrests or some of them?

MR NESAMARI: Yes.

MR MEYER: Now seeing as this point has been raised, what - it's common cause also that a large number of the people who were arrested were people involved with the Lutheran Church, do you agree with that?

MR NESAMARI: Yes it's correct.

MR MEYER: What made you link these people that belonged to the Church to the bombing of the police station?

MR NESAMARI: As far as I am concerned as a member of the team which was investigating there was information which was brought to the office although I couldn't remember where the information was coming from, but it's the directives which were received that there is information which is linking the van of the Lutheran Centre, which is in Buyste(?) and a kombi which is linked with the bombing of the police station and the kombi was belonging to Mr Chikororo. But that information it's then that we linked the pastors and the bombing of the police station.

MR MEYER: If we can concentrate on Dean Farisani as such, what information did you have that connected him to the attack or the planning thereof?

MR NESAMARI: If you can look in Mr Farisani, although I was still a young official of the police service I was not involved in analysing the information I hope Farisani was - directive was issued so that he can be arrested because he was the head of the church at Chamungani, I mean in that Centre of the Lutheran Church. That is why it is obvious that he must be held responsible why the van of the Church was involved in the bombing.

MR MEYER: Now after the - these people that are also in your statement listed in paragraph 15 they were arrested and then they were detained and then they were interrogated, is that correct?

MR NESAMARI: Yes they were arrested and interrogated.

MR MEYER: Did you form part of the team that interrogated it?

MR NESAMARI: Yes I was part of them.

MR MEYER: It is also now common cause that a large number of these people were assaulted and tortured during the interrogations, do you agree with that?

MR NESAMARI: Yes that's correct.

MR MEYER: Were you yourself involved in some of the assaults and tortures?

MR MEYER: Excuse me Mr Chairman I am not hearing the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...not getting the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: His problem is now solved.

MR NESAMARI: I want to tell this Commission that I was one of the people who participated in the assaulting of the detainees at that time.

MR MEYER: Let's deal with the people you assaulted in the same order as that stated in your application. The first person that you mentioned there is Reverend Posiwa and you said that you cannot clearly remember whether or not you assaulted him but that it is possible that you slapped and/or punched him.

MR NESAMARI: When I wanted to explain in detail I want, if this Committee can allow me to explain in Mr Posiwa's cases and even Mr Farisani and Mr Poswana's case. I don't deny that I participated in their assault but I want this Committee to know that these people were the members of the Church, of which I am also part of them, and I used to respect them when it comes to Church matters. That is why when you can see - if you can look in my application that I indicated that my participating is not clear that I did this or not. But what I can explain is that when Reverend Posiwa was assaulted by Mr Ramaligela and Managa I was also there.

But what I participated in is that I was just like a person who was working as a person who used to submit tools, just like spade work. I used to supply with water so that they can pour the water in the bag and if he was handcuffed I used to assist while he was handcuffed and assisting if a person is being electrically shocked, by that electricity telephone. I used to assist, because when a person is being shocked his body will jerk and I used to just put my hand so that the person cannot take off the wires which were attached to them. Not that I am denying that I participated in slapping him or kicking him, but my respect was not far from those people.

MR MEYER: So what you are saying is that you, with regard to the Reverends, people who were pastors of the Church, are you saying that yes, you were involved in their torture and assaults on them, but in their cases it was mostly a case of assisting your colleagues while they were doing the serious torture with electric shock treatment, the water treatment and so on?

MR NESAMARI: Yes that is true.

MR MEYER: But you are also not denying that you might have, or you did, and I am specifically referring only to Reverend Posiwa at this stage, you did assault him by slapping him and maybe kicking him and punching him with fists, and that kind of thing. Is that correct?

MR NESAMARI: Yes it is true. I can't dispute that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you or did you not slap him?

MR NESAMARI: With regard to Mr Posiwa, that is what I am indicating, that I might have slapped him. I just don't want to explain in detail, I might have possibly slapped him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: We want you to explain in detail. How are we going to entertain applications if you don't give us details of how you committed these assaults? We want a full explanation. We don't want you to tell us that you might or might not have not assaulted him. We want to know. You must give us facts.

MR NESAMARI: Yes, I was involved in beating and making all the assaults.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you or did you not slap him? If you did slap him where did you slap him and how many times?

MR NESAMARI: Well as to how much I can't tell exactly. However I am quite sure that I did slap him. I remember when I pulled his hair, while I was pulling ...(indistinct).

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Which hair did you pull? A hair from his head, his body hair?

MR NESAMARI: Yes from the head.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR NESAMARI: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you or did you not punch him?

MR NESAMARI: I slapped him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you or did you not punch him, not slap him?

MR NESAMARI: I am not too sure whether you are referring to the fist or kicking or slapping, which one are you referring to?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I am referring to punching, did you ever punch him?

CHAIRPERSON: With your fist.

MR NESAMARI: Yes I did that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: On which part of his body?

MR NESAMARI: It was on the face and even on the ribs.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: How many times?

MR NESAMARI: I can't remember, it happened quite frequently on a number of days.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you have knowledge of this information when you completed your application form?

MR NESAMARI: Well I did have knowledge even before I completed my application form.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Why did you not include it in your application form?

MR NESAMARI: Well I just want to submit that with regard to my statement there is a lot that I didn't say exactly in a truthful manner, because it so happened that - let me say that after the detainees had taken this to the other Committee, although I didn't listen over the radio I was sure that it was alluded to that I was involved, that I was in the assault.

I then started feeling so bad about it in my spirit because I wanted to know what I would do. As a young member, or a junior member then I then regarded that it was maybe my seniors who were involved in those days were now saying, putting me on the other side.

Then I was confused because I didn't know what was it that I should put forward as truth. Then I was having two-sided views. The first view was that I had to go to the victims and side with them, that also pained me because I will be regarded as a sell-out as it will be construed as I was selling out.

Also the second view was that I was going to be very responsible, although the Commissioner in the Police then didn't have much responsibility in support of me. As such I concluded that I was going to be led into a frustration, then I could not put it clearly truthfully.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Then with regard to the next victim, Reverend Mahamba, you said in your statement that he was never assaulted by yourself. Is that correct?

MR NESAMARI: Well I didn't really touch him.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Reverend Farisani. In your statement you said you were present when he was assaulted by some of your colleagues. You cannot remember but it is possible that you also slapped and punched him. Can you give us some more detail.

MR NESAMARI: Well that is true that I can't remember exactly in detail, however, as a person who was involved as it was happening I cannot dispute that I might have slapped him and also fist. However, I just want to submit to the Committee that with regard to Mr Farisani he was the Dean of the Lutheran Church and he was very respected in our Church which my parents were also involved. My respect was also - with regard to the section in which I was while the interrogation was taking place it also forced me to be involved in the slapping and the fist, also kicking him. With regard to the other methods I was just involved in assisting.

MR MEYER: Can you remember clearly as to how often you slapped him or punched him or where on his body this took place and so on? If you can remember just give us all those details?

MR MEYER: Well with regard to Mr Farisani there was an extensive period of interrogation with regard to him. It could have been two, three days or four. I can't recall exactly how many days. But every day of the interrogation I was involved, I was participating, so much that I cannot recall and tell exactly how often I beat him through whichever method. However I did use my fists on his body, although I cannot pinpoint exactly which side of his body, whether on the face or on the body, I did make use of that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Meyer. When you say you can't recall how often you assaulted him and that the interrogation lasted for a period of approximately three to four days, are you saying that on each and every time he was interrogated you would slap and kick him, you would slap and punch him?

MR NESAMARI: Well although I am not saying every day, however most of the times during the interrogation I will beat him using my fists. I am not saying on every day occasion, however, during those kind of interrogations I did.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You slapped, punched or kicked Mr Farisani more than once, is that your evidence?

MR NESAMARI: I can't remember kicking him, however, I slapped him and I used my fists more than once.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Reverend Poswana, you said in your statement that he went to show you some weapons that were allegedly hidden at a cave at Chakuma and when you realised he had been lying you gave him a few slaps.

MR NESAMARI: Yes it is true. What happened is that when Mr Poswana was being interrogated at the office while feeling the pain through the assault and beating I am quite sure that he wanted to defend himself. I am just merely speculating. He then said he knew where the ammunitions and guns were hidden, that is what he said to us and he said he will take us to those places. I was one of those people who went with him when going to Chakuma. At a certain mountain in Mangwene, cave, as we were on the way I think that was when, after we had parked our cars and we were walking towards the bush, on arrival next to a certain secondary school, I can't remember the name of the school, Mr Poswana changed his mind and said he was lying because he was feeling pain. There were no guns hidden.

Well I was so furious because it was so frustrating and we were walking up and down, I remember trying to hold him on his neck and then I pushed him down. I threatened him and even said that we are going to end your life there and then. You will have to show us where the guns were. So we took him back to the office. That is where we gave a report to the Captain Ramaligela to the effect that Mr Poswana didn't know anything about the guns.

Thereafter there was another emergency of beating him severely and shocking him electronically. I was involved, I did play a part in that, I participated in that. I really used my bare hands and also fists.

MR MEYER: Just explain to us precisely at which stage during this trip to where the arms and ammunition were allegedly hidden, at which stage of that trip did you give him a few slaps as you said in your statement?

MR NESAMARI: Well the slapping started when we were you know at the outskirts in the area of Chakuma, just not so far from the bush in which the guns were allegedly hidden. He said he was just feeling pain. That is where I started beating or slapping him. And also after we had gone back to the office, at Venda office in our usual office interrogation room, that is where I also slapped him.

MR MEYER: In other words that was on two occasions that you slapped him?

MR NESAMARI: It might have been more than twice because the interrogation didn't take place once.

MR MEYER: And is the situation with regard to the, shall I call it the more serious assaults and methods of torture, is the situation with regard to Reverend Poswana the same as with the other members of the Church that you assisted in those assaults and interrogations but as you said you did not personally apply electric shock treatment and so on. Is that the correct summation?

MR NESAMARI: Well I do agree that I was part and parcel of severely ill-treating them.

MR MEYER: Then the next victim that is listed in your statement is Mr Ravele, and of him you said that he was never assaulted by yourself?

MR NESAMARI: Well it's true I was not part of the investigation in his case.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Mr Chikororo, you said you -

Can you comment on that?

MR NESAMARI: Yes it's true. With regard to Mr Chikororo to be honest, well it would be very helpful for me, I severely beat Mr Chikororo. With regard to Mr Chikororo, during the time of his arrest he was very young. Although I can't possibly say whether he's of my age but when looking at him I could see that he was younger than I was. With regard to this case I was very much participative. I tortured him severely. I did make him frog jump; he was made to stand on his head; I threatened him; I even told him I could end his life in this world. I even went on to say, with regard to the electric shock, I made use of it personally.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Who else was with you?

MR NESAMARI: If I remember the late John Managa was also with me. If I am not mistaken also on the other section Mr Netshivale was also involved. I can't tell you exactly whether - well I think he was around and so many other members who were involved because in the day you were not really respected, there were some young officials who just beat them there and there just to enjoy and leave. Because with regard to interrogation in our Security section was done in a section which, well I can't tell exactly, how I can explain, the section would be regarded, based on whether one would be very confident enough, secretive, so that they would not really go out and tell exactly what happened in the days. That is why we would like these people to be very secretive. Although these people would be very involved, the elderly people or the senior people will be able to see that.

MR MEYER: You have already said now that you were involved in electric shock treatment and that you beat him severely, you threatened to kill him, is there anything else that you did with regard to Mr Chikororo?

MR NESAMARI: Well it is true with regard to Mr Chikororo, although I won't be able to say in detail how I tortured him I am saying that I was using all available techniques to threaten him. Let me say Mr Chikororo was very tough although he was very young he was not so easy to deal with especially to break his morale so as to extract the information that we wanted he was very tough. However, it forced me to use any available method, electric shock, putting a bag with water, and would put this wire that will wind as if you are ringing the telephone, or we will just handcuff him there would be these wires so that the impact will shock the whole body. There are so many methods that were used in torturing. Some of them I won't even remember categorically. However, I can't say - he may say more that he will explain.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You must remember something Sir, we don't want him to explain. He is not applying for amnesty. It is you who has to explain because you are applying for amnesty. There is no onus on him to come here and explain.

MR NESAMARI: Well it is true, I am quite aware, and I want this Committee to understand that my evidence and my truth as put evidently, that there were so many things that really happened a long time ago. I remember even yesterday as I left home, I didn't sleep well because I was trying to think in terms of what I was going to say based on what my colleagues had said and as to what I was going to say. Was I going to say exactly how it happened. I even went to an extent of asking my wife to pray on my behalf so that I will be able to say exactly the truth. Pardon me if I did not reach the stage I really admit that I tortured him although I cannot say exactly what else used in torturing him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I hope you are not suggesting that you have had to think of how to fashion your evidence to be in line with that that has previously been given by your co-applicants, I just hope you are not suggesting that to us.

MR NESAMARI: Could you just repeat the question.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I am saying from the comment that you have just made, I hope you are not suggesting to this Committee that you are now fashioning your evidence, you are tailoring your evidence to be in line with the one already given by your co-applicants, because you must tell us your involvement as you, yourself understand it, as you yourself know to have been, irrespective of what has already been given before this Committee by your co-applicants.

MR NESAMARI: Whilst it is true I am not trying to say that it should be in line with what has already taken place because if somebody teaches me on what to say it would be very misleading on my side. I will be confused.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So don't make the comments that you have been making, just give us the evidence.

MR NESAMARI: Thank you very much if I was not able to put it clearly.

MR MEYER: Captain, can you recall, can you remember how long the questioning on the interrogation of Mr Chikororo, how long it kept on? Was it over more than one day or so on? Can you give any indication to that effect?

MR NESAMARI: It took a long time. I am quite sure that it might have been more than three days, because it was not so easy to extract the truth from Mr Chikororo. And also the period during the day on a particular day we will ask him more than two or three hours.

MR MEYER: Alright. Then with regard to Mr Mahumela you said in your statement you cannot remember if you assaulted him but it is possible. Any comment on that?

MR NESAMARI: Well it is true. I think with regard to Mr Mahumela let me say initially that when he was arrested I didn't really get the exact information as to how he was involved in the bombing of the police station. However, with the directives that we were given and also the information that was given to us in the offices it was said to us that he used to go to the police station just to check as a spy and that could link him to the bombing of the police station. That is why I am saying I can't really tell exactly how I was involved. However, I can admit and say that I beat Mr Mahumela, although I won't really say it in detail as to how he was interrogated and how long it took place. However, I was involved, maybe in the interrogation.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Let me try and comprehend this aspect of your evidence. You can't tell your particular involvement but you admit that you actually beat Mr Mahumela?

MR NESAMARI: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: How do you know that you did anything to him if you can't recall what you did?

MR NESAMARI: Well I just don't want to confuse myself. You know just as to how I beat him I cannot say I took part but I agree that I did. I don't want to lie, because I have to explain to this Committee as to how I beat him, how long it took, I just don't want to lie. However, I did beat him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But how do you know that you beat him if you can't say what you did to him?

MR NESAMARI: Well I agree that I beat Mr Mahumela. However what I am not able to put across to the Committee is how long it took for over how many hours and what I used as a method I cannot explain because you know according to my knowledge I wasn't really seriously involved.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are thinking of something, if you are remembering something you're surely formulating a picture of it in your mind otherwise you won't remember it. You are casting back and in your mind you are seeing a replay of what happened. Sometimes it's very distinct because you can't remember it well but you always get a picture in your mind. Now what picture do you get of this beating of Mr Mahumela, if any? And if you don't get any picture, if it's just blank then we go back to Judge Khampepe's question, how do you know you beat him if you can't recall anything?

MR NESAMARI: Well it's true because I am trying to picture Mr Mahumela in our office, interrogating room and I am trying again to picture some of the sections which the Reverend went past, Mr Chikororo as well and I can't really link Mr Mahumela in this regard. As such I do agree that I beat him but I don't want to lie saying, just to perhaps say - I don't want to lie and say I didn't beat him although I wouldn't say exactly I beat him or not. That is why I want to agree with the Committee that I beat Mr Mahumela, but I might have slapped him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You are not agreeing with the Committee. The Committee is not asking you to agree to anything. The Committee is here to hear your evidence. It is hear to take details of what you admit to having committed on the suspects listed in paragraph 3 of your own application.

MR NESAMARI: Well let me say I must just release myself because I don't want to confuse and not say what is expected of me. Well I don't know exactly what - how I beat Mr Mahumela, that is why I am saying I might have possibly been involved but I might have slapped him as well. I don't want to lie before the Committee. Because quite often if one had done something very much prepared one will remember that this is one or two things that one has done.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you can't remember whether or not you beat him, but you may have? Is that what you are saying? You can't remember it at all, but you may have although you can't remember it.

MR NESAMARI: Yes I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: You have got no recollection at all of whether you slapped him with an open hand or whether you punched him with a fist or whether you assisted or yourself placed electric shocks, applied the electric shock method to him or any other method, you can't remember but you won't dispute that you might have done it?

MR NESAMARI: Well I don't want to dispute before the Committee, but I can't really picture myself, linking myself to Mahumela, I cannot.

CHAIRPERSON: So you might even, it might even be so that you never in fact tortured him or struck him or beat him because you can't remember?

MR NESAMARI: Well I can't say I didn't torture him at all. I might have been involved but I just can't picture myself before Mr Mahumela and torturing him.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Nesamari are you trying to tell us that these assaults were so indiscriminate and so sustained that you cannot distinguish the various types of assaults on the various victims? Is that what you are trying to tell us?

MR NESAMARI: Well I am not saying I cannot make a clear distinction. There are areas which I am able to recall, the incidents which took place. However, there are some sections in which one cannot be able to say exactly what happened. That is why I am saying Chipirwa was one of the detainees and he's one of those people who was being interrogated. And that is why I am saying I cannot say I am not involving myself but I cannot picture in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Let's just clear up this point. What you are actually telling us then is that the answer you gave on your statement with regard to Mr Mahumela is that you cannot remember if you assaulted him but it is possible? Is that basically what you are saying?

MR NESAMARI: Well it is true, I can't remember but I might have possibly beaten him.

MR MEYER: Okay. What objective were you trying to reach in participating in these assaults and tortures on the detainees?

MR NESAMARI: I was part of the investigating team which had a goal of trying to extract information which will lead to the people who bombed the police station. That is the main goal that we were looking for.

MR MEYER: What kind of instructions did you have from your superior officers?

MR NESAMARI: Let me say as a junior member I didn't have any instruction directly coming to me. The only instruction that I will get will be from the team leader, who was Mr Ramaligela or the late Sofuwa, to the effect that we had to work effectively so that we would be able to extract the information as to what happened which led to the bombing of the police station; as to who were involved in the bombing of the police station. And that is how it happened, and we were working day in and day out.

MR MEYER: Now sitting here today and thinking back on these things that you did, how do you feel about it?

MR NESAMARI: Well what happened years back - are you referring to the bombing of the police station or regarding the victims?

MR MEYER: I am talking about your treatment of the victims.

MR NESAMARI: I just want to say in particular to the victims and their families that it is true that I was involved in torturing them. If I will be very clear I will say that my torturing the Reverends and some of the members who were also belonging to the Lutheran Church, led into difficulties with regard to my life. I was hated by the nation. I was not able to live well. The separation of my family. I didn't have the best relationship with my family anymore, my young brothers. Also I tortured my own family because my family was also transformed into victims because of the torture that I made with regard to the Reverends. The nation regarded me as a monster. I was not happy at all.

Moreover I just want to submit that with regard to any victim, perhaps mentioning them by name, let me say looking at Dean Farisani, as the elder or senior member of the Church in those days, that is true that Mr Dean and his family really suffered with regard to the tortures that I did, or my deeds.

Well I didn't know exactly that the Dean was related to me, that is why I was not so surprised that my young brother hated me. My young brother married the - I realised that when I was torturing Mr Dean I didn't realise he was my relative. His family suffered because of me ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interrupt you. This is a very short-lived Committee, please try and confine your responses to what is relevant and that will impinge on us being able to decide on whether to grant you amnesty or not. You have, however, been asked by your counsel what, if you have anything to say to the victims, so confine yourself to that question, and that question only. You don't have to give us a background of your relationship with any of the victims. Do you have anything to say to them in relation to the assaults for which you are seeking amnesty?

MR NESAMARI: Well pardon me. Well I thought the question wanted me to tell exactly what I can say. Well please pardon me if I was really going into detail with regard to my feelings, the pain that I feel, that I felt throughout, because my torture of Reverend I made myself no more available in the Church.

Let me say, I will just say in general, as the Committee has just told me, I don't want to be very long, the Lutheran Church Reverend please pardon me. I am your child. I grew under your Church. However, because of the job there was nothing I could do because the job was part and parcel of my attachment with the family. In those days that is how it happened. I just want you to accept my apology and do forgive me.

With regard to Mr Chikororo, well I am so disappointed I feel so disappointed. I am sorry the Committee doesn't want me to say in detail. I will be saying more than I am saying now. His mother is a relative to my wife. He normally comes to my place and I don't have much to say with them. I don't know whether they know exactly that I was involved in the torture of Mr Chikororo. But anyway not to say so much as I was limited already let me ask for forgiveness.

Mr Mahumela, although you might think that I am lying that I didn't beat you, the torture and the sufferings that you experienced I was also going through. Wherever I wronged you please forgive me. I do admit that you suffered extensively in my involvement. And so many other people that I could not mention because these were not the only people who submitted our names in the Committee. There were so many people who were tortured ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Mr Nesamari I am going to cut you short there. You said in your statement, paragraph 42 -

Now you've already testified that Mr Chikororo, for instance, was severely beaten and assaulted, what is the reason for the allegation you made in paragraph 42?

MR NESAMARI: Well it's true I did say, I gave evidence to the effect that I agree that it was falsified. The reason why I said that I thought I was defending myself and protecting myself. I just didn't want to be very open that the Reverend and other people, or the victims were really severely beaten and they were hurt so much that they had to go to the hospital. I thought I was protecting myself. Because one thing for sure the reason why I made my application I didn't have much knowledge as to where it would lead me, myself and the family. That is why I was trying to be very evasive.

Also subsequently as we were being consulted by the legal advisor they then directed us and said to us the Committee wanted absolute truth so that they will be able to consider whether you will be forgiven. I was then eventually free although doubting, especially with regard to the colleagues as to whether they will be able to say the truth. That is why I have always been saying or dodging, or I didn't know whether I will side with the victims or the perpetrators who are my colleagues. I didn't ...(indistinct) them. Today I think they have said exactly the truth and I am so free that I had to say the truth. And these people were seriously injured, they deserved to go to the hospital.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that today the victims have said the truth and that's why you are now able to say the truth? I just want to make sure that the translation came through properly.

No translation is coming through.

INTERPRETER: Just repeat for the last time please.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was it translated properly. Your evidence came through as saying now that the victims have told the truth you are now able to tell this Committee the truth?

MR NESAMARI: The truth that I am saying now is based on the fact that all the various methods were used with regard to the victims. I could hear as it was being elucidated that those methods were used. That is why I am now free. Well I don't know if there are other things which were not said.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I have understood you properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. You are also aware of the fact that as a result of the assaults civil proceedings were instituted against the Government, the Minister of Safety and Security in the former Venda, and the victims claimed damages from the then Venda government, you are aware of that?

MR NESAMARI: Yes I am quite aware.

MR MEYER: Is it also correct that with regard to those civil proceedings you made a statement which is contained on page 105 Mr Chairman. Let me show it to you. Is that your statement?

MR NESAMARI: Yes it is mine.

MR MEYER: Do you agree that you stated here, in the last paragraph -

This is with regard to Reverend Posiwa.

MR NESAMARI: It is true.

MR MEYER: And this statement is false?

MR NESAMARI: It is true.

MR MEYER: What is the objective you were seeking by making this false statement?

MR NESAMARI: Well in those days, in the then government under which I was working, as police or as a policeman, let me just say as a policeman it was our own knowledge that we will be able to protect the then government of the day, in any form that one will - or in any situation that will really lead into criticising the government, that is why the statement that was put falsely was meant to protect the government so that the government could not be sued and it had to pay a lot of money. That is why I lied.

MR MEYER: Can we just go back to the question that was put to you by Judge Khampepe about the fact that you can now tell your story because of what the victims said. I am not clear, I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Do you mean that your memory has been refreshed by what the victims are saying or what do you exactly mean by that?

MR NESAMARI: Well I was trying to explain that I didn't have trust in my colleagues, especially in my seniors as to whether they will be able to say how they tortured these people. That is why I was saying after hearing whatever they said, the way they tortured these people, especially with regard to Ramaligela's evidence as to how he tortured the people, that is why I am able to say I am now free.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Certainly.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: It's getting more clouded. I was on the same page with him, I am afraid I am getting to be on a different wavelength.

You are saying the reason why you are now able to admit to the assaults as you have before us now in your viva voce admitted, is because of having listened to the evidence of your colleagues about their own involvement in the assaults of persons mentioned in paragraph 15?

MR NESAMARI: Well what I am saying I am basing it on the statements that we made in which they were not really putting or correlating truthfully. I am not saying what I have explained on what I have seen and say I will go in line with what they have said. I was basing it on the statements that we put, mine, which was not very truthfully put, or I could not put things in full detail, or in detail. Like in the Reverends alluded to by my legal advisor in which I explained that Mr Chikororo was beaten and he suffered severely. That is why in the other statement I didn't deem it fit that he would have to get medication. That is why I am trying to clear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. I have nothing further at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg do you have any questions you would like to put to this applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Yes indeed I have a few questions.

Mr Nesamari you mentioned during your evidence before this Commission that Mr Netshivale was also involved in the interrogation of the detainees at the time, is that correct?

MR NESAMARI: Yes it is true, they were involved that's why.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now at the time you held the rank of constable, is that correct?

MR NESAMARI: That is true, I was a constable.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And would you dispute that at the time Mr Netshivale was also a constable?

MR NESAMARI: We were both constables.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay now can you please proceed by describing to us what was Mr Netshivale's involvement in this interrogation at the time?

MR NESAMARI: Well I cannot really respond to that as to how Mr Netshivale was involved in the interrogation. Let me say since all of us were junior members we will act under the instructions given to us just to do the job. I am quite sure that Mr Netshivale deemed it fit to be involved, to participate. Well I am not too sure if that will satisfy you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay I will accept that for the moment. There was previously evidence led that the core of the interrogation or the investigation unit consisted of Security policemen by the rank of warrant officer and above. Do you agree with that?

MR NESAMARI: Yes it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And there was also evidence that these investigators made use of other lower rank policemen, constables in the Security branch to assist them in the interrogation. Do you agree with that statement?

MR NESAMARI: Could you just repeat the latter part of the statement.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes. There was evidence that these warrant officers who formed the core of the investigating unit also used other Security branch policemen of lower rank to assist them in the interrogation.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Won't you just make it easier for him by telling him who has said that. He might not be able to remember. Who actually made that....

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. I think that evidence was in fact led by Mr Ramaligela and also the second witness which was, ja, Mr Ramaligela was in fact the second witness. He was, as far as my recollection goes, the one that testified to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and I think also Mr Managa said that although they weren't invited, the junior members or so assisted.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NESAMARI: Are you actually asking me whether the other junior members were also invited to come and assist in the interrogation? I am not really following your question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am asking you if you agree or disagree with the previous evidence that was led by the two gentlemen mentioned, that apart from the core which consisted of persons of warrant officer and above, there was other persons who were not really a part of that core who was also used, people of lower ranking, or policemen of lower ranking office.

MR NESAMARI: Well if I could make a clear recollection with regard to the investigation of the bombing of the police station it had a very specific investigating team which was involved in the case. During the time when the detainees were being interrogated or being tortured there were other members in the Security Branch office who very often will just come in the interrogating office. I am not too sure whether they were invited or not, I don't want to lie, because I was not in possession of inviting anybody because I was in a lower rank. Maybe they were invited or not invited or voluntarily because they were very inquisitive.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes thank you, we are talking actually about the same thing. The question is were you part of that very specific investigation team or not?

MR NESAMARI: Who are those you are referring to?

MR VAN RENSBURG: You, were you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg has mentioned that you had that specific investigation team which you agreed with him, consisting of various members, warrant officer and above. Your co-applicants in here basically plus one further deceased person. Now he is asking, were you actually officially part of that investigation team or did you just from time-to-time come in and assist whenever you felt like it or ...(intervention)

MR NESAMARI: I was just part of the investigation unit.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman for the assistance.

Now would you agree with me, if I put it to you, that Mr Netshivale, he was not part of that as you call "very specific investigation team", he was not part of that team?

MR NESAMARI: Well I can't dispute that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Do you know or don't you know, was he or wasn't he?

MR NESAMARI: What I know is that Mr Netshivale took part in the interrogating session. Whether he was assigned specifically in the investigation team I don't know whether I can say it truthfully. Maybe the head of the investigation team would be able to explain that whether anyone in particular day was involved.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Did you at any stage, any occasion, witness Mr Netshivale assaulting any of the detainees?

MR NESAMARI: Well although I cannot put it clearly as to who but I can remember - I don't know whether with regard to Mr Mahumela and Mr Chikororo, whether Mr Netshivale beat a particular person. I can remember you know the slapping, using two hands. I can't make a clear distinction whether it was on Mr Chikororo or Mahumela.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So what you are saying is you can remember Mr Netshivale slapping an unidentified person, or a person who you can't recall his identity, with two hands? Do I understand your evidence correctly?

MR NESAMARI: That I what I am explaining now.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was it during that time of the detentions, of the interrogation of the detainees?

MR NESAMARI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. And was, during that specific occasion that you are talking about now, was Mr Netshivale alone with that specific unidentified detainee?

MR NESAMARI: Are you referring specifically to the office, being alone in the office?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, in the office with that specific detainee that you said he assaulted with two hands. Was he alone in that office with a detainee or were there other police officers with him?

MR NESAMARI: Well there were other policemen. I was also around. I don't know as to whether - well I think, I hope that the late John was around. I don't know exactly who else was there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: This person, the late John that you are talking about, is that the late John Managa?

MR NESAMARI: Yes it is true - Managa.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And that would be the brother of Mr Managa who is here?

MR NESAMARI: It's the younger brother to the Managa who is around.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg. Ms Mtanga do you have any questions you'd like to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela would like to know whether you were part of a team of policemen who went to arrest him?

MR NESAMARI: I can't remember. I might have been part. I can't really recall.

MS MTANGA: Would you dispute his evidence that yourself, Mr Netjenjereni and Mr Chivasa were the three people who went to arrest him from his work, do you dispute this?

MR NESAMARI: Well I can't dispute that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Are you saying Netshivesen or Netshivale?

MS MTANGA: Netjenjereni.

MR NESAMARI: Nerenjene or....

MS MTANGA: Nerenjene.

MR NESAMARI: Well I can't really remember whether the member was already in the Security Branch or not. But anyway Mr Chivasa was already in the Security Branch. The other, Nerenjene was a new member. I don't know whether in the 1982's he was in the Security Branch. I can't remember. However, he was a member of the Security Branch. I can only remember that he came at a later stage. I don't know whether it was in the '82's.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela is going to testify that you yourself, Mr Nerenjene and Mr Chivasa arrested him on the 12th of November 1981 and you are one of the people who tortured him. What do you say to this?

MR NESAMARI: I cannot dispute that, the fact that I arrested him, I cannot dispute that. Also to the fact that I tortured him, I cannot dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Mr Nesamari if you don't dispute that you arrested Mr Mahumela and if you also don't dispute that you tortured him, do you also not dispute that on from the 12th of November, the day of his arrest, up to the 14th of November 1981 Mr Mahumela lost consciousness and he didn't know his whereabouts and he would like to - do you dispute these facts?

CHAIRPERSON: ....and Ms Mtanga let's - if we could just get this clear. You say he lost consciousness - was he knocked out physically unable to do anything or did he lose - has he lost memory of what happened during that period of time?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson as a result of the beating and the torture he received from Mr Nesamari and his team on the 12th, the day they arrested him, he lost consciousness on the same day and he only recovered on the 14th of November 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that Mr Nesamari?

MR NESAMARI: Well are you saying the time he was arrested, the spot where he was arrested or in the office or where, I just want to know exactly where the question is leading me ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't - look what's being put to you is that this man that you arrested on the 12th of November was rendered unconscious after his arrest. It doesn't matter whether it was at the place where he was arrested or in the motor car going to the office or in the office there. He was rendered unconscious and he remained unconscious right through from the date of his arrest, that is the 12th of November through to the 14th of November. Now what do you say to that? That's what is being put to you that the witness will say, the victim will say, Mr Mahumela.

MR NESAMARI: I cannot recall that section in which he was unconscious. I cannot recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree that it's the sort of incident that would be difficult to forget? I mean if you render, through beating a person unconscious, you render him unconscious and he remains unconscious for two, over two days or two days, that that would be an extremely worrying time. Would this person die or not would have been on the forefront ...(intervention)

MR NESAMARI: Well you see if he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you can't even remember whether he was unconscious or not?

MR NESAMARI: Well if it had happened before me I don't think really I cannot recall that. I will be able to think about that and remember, but I cannot really put it in the picture as to how he became unconscious.

CHAIRPERSON: The thing is not as to how he became unconscious, but can you remember him being unconscious, lying there prone, unable to speak, not responding to anything said to him or done to him?

MR NESAMARI: Well I cannot recall.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Let us assist you. You have just admitted that you were part of the team that went to arrest him.

MR NESAMARI: Yes it is true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And that was on the 12th of November. After that you must have interrogated him, did you not?

MR NESAMARI: Well I can't really recall that on the date as to when. That could be the date.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. But after arresting him you must have conducted some kind of interrogation, immediately after arresting him.

MR NESAMARI: Yes it is true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Which is on the 12th of November. Was the interrogation conducted on the 12th of November on Mr Mahumela?

MR NESAMARI: Well like I am saying I cannot recall, specifically with the date I cannot recall the date.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you arrest him and take him to your interrogation room on the same day?

MR NESAMARI: Well I am not clear. Well I am told that he was arrested at work. It could have been after hours. I don't know whether he was taken to the office or to the prison. I can't really have a picture on that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you admit to having been part of the people who effected an arrest on him?

MR NESAMARI: Well I can't dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Do you know a lady by the name of Tinavuyo Rambuwane? She used to work with your team.

MR NESAMARI: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Did she assault Mr Mahumela? Did she kick Mr Mahumela?

MR NESAMARI: Yes she did kick Mr Mahumela.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Mtanga, could you please just give me the name of that person again, I didn't catch it.

MS MTANGA: The name is Tinavuyo Rambuwane. If you cannot recall interrogating and torturing Mr Mahumela how do you know that Tinavuyo indeed kicked Mr Mahumela?

MR NESAMARI: I was around in the office. I am not saying that I don't know about the torture of Mr Mahumela. What I said initially is that I cannot have a clear recollection as to how much I was involved, personally. But with regard to Tinavuyo's kicking, I witnessed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga has she been given notice as an implicated person?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson I just got instructions from the victim now.

CHAIRPERSON: There will have to be notice given in terms of the Act, section 34 I think it is, 30, yes, 30.

MS MTANGA: That will be done Chairperson.

Mr Nesamari are you now admitting that you were present when Mr Mahumela was being interrogated and tortured?

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman I want to object to this question. I think this witness has now made it clear that he cannot recall whether - he said it was a possibility that he was involved and he might even himself have assaulted Mr Mahumela. But he said repeatedly that he is not sure about it and he can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the fact that this lady's name has been mentioned might jog his memory. It's come up for the first time now and he says that he knows that she kicked him. Does that bring back any memory about your participation - relating to your involvement on the torture of Mr Mahumela?

MR NESAMARI: Well I still don't have a picture on my involvement and beating of him. Well I don't think I won't have a role and dispute that. That is why I am saying I am unable to explain exactly how I played a part in regard to the torture and assault. Well I did admit that I might have possibly participated but I don't remember exactly what happened. That is why I am not able to say exactly how unconscious he was and whether he became unconscious.

MS MTANGA: Mr Nesamari Mr Mahumela will testify, and I would like to put to you what he will be testifying on, he will testify that you were part of the team that kicked and beat him together with Tinavuyola Mbowane and at the time he lost consciousness you were there. And at the time he lost consciousness that's when Tinavuyo was kicking him on the head. Do you dispute this?

MR NESAMARI: Well by the time it happened, especially with regard to the kicking I think I did admit I was there. But for the fact that he became unconscious I cannot tell exactly what happened. But I did witness when Tinavuyo kicked him. I am not saying I did kick him. I don't think that possibly happened. However, it might have happened.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela would like to know do you know of his whereabouts from the 12th after he had been kicked by yourself and your team, what happened to him between the 12th and the 14th of November?

MR NESAMARI: Does he want to know where he himself was or where Mr Nesamari was?

CHAIRPERSON: He wants to know where he himself was. He says he was unconscious. He doesn't know where he was from the 12th to the 14th. He now wants to know if you know where he was from the 12th to the 14th.

MR NESAMARI: Maybe if we were to look at the books from the police station we may be able to know where he was detained. I don't know exactly as to where he was taken during his arrest. I just want to say if we look at the books further back they will be able to help us.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Do you or don't you know? We don't want to be looking at the books. Do you know where he was after he had been assaulted in your presence by Tinavuyo?

MR NESAMARI: I don't know whether he was detained and where he was detained. I can't make a clear recollection of that.

MS MTANGA: Are you able to say whether, as a result of the injuries, resulting from the beating and the kicking, Mr Mahumela was ever hospitalised?

MR NESAMARI: That could be possible. I cannot say I exactly remember what happened.

MS MTANGA: Do you remember or don't you remember?

MR NESAMARI: I can't remember at all. That is why I am not sure whether he was taken to the prison or he went directly to the hospital thereafter. Please pardon me on that. I don't know.

MS MTANGA: You have already denied that you were part of the team that tortured Mr Mahumela, do you know if ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that Ms Mtanga. I think he - we dwelled on it a long time, he said he can't remember.

MS MTANGA: I am sorry Chairperson. You have indicated that you don't remember assaulting or torturing Mr Mahumela, do you remember if any person was in the room with you, in the interrogating room, ever applied electrical shocks on Mr Mahumela's private parts?

MR NESAMARI: No I can't remember anything.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Ms Mtanga. The people who effected the arrest on Mr Mahumela were yourself, Nerenjene and Chivasa, is it not so - Netshivale?

MR NESAMARI: Well that's how it was - I don't remember ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman if I can just come in here. With respect I don't agree totally with what is being said. He also said with regard to that he can't dispute it - it's possible. He can't remember that either, that he was part of the team and that those were the other team members. The names that have been mentioned.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, he will say that. You were present when Mr Mahumela was arrested, were you not?

MR NESAMARI: Well I do agree that I might have been the person who arrested him, but I do doubt whether Mr Nerenjene was there. That's why I was so doubtful whether he was a member of the Security then. I am not too clear whether he was there.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you cannot recall whether you were present when an arrest of Mr Mahumela was effected?

MR NESAMARI: Let me say the Committee should understand that with regard to Mr Mahumela's case there's not much that I can recall because I don't even know where we found him, where we arrested him and I am not disputing that I took part in the arrest. But just where we arrested him and the subsequent information I can't tell exactly.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I am not interested about how the arrest was effected. I want to know whether you were part of the unit or the team that effected the arrest?

MR NESAMARI: Well I do agree that I might have been part. That is why I don't want to dispute that I wasn't there. As the Committee is showing it to me I might have been involved together with the other members but I don't want to say I can remember exactly how the events took place. Pardon me for that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: The reason why I am asking this question is because of all the persons mentioned by Ms Mtanga to you as having been part of the arresting team do not constitute the investigating team as evidenced by the other members, the senior members who were working under initially Mr Sofuwa and later under Mr Ramushwana. And then the only person who would make up the team would be yourself.

MR NESAMARI: With regard to the arrest it was not really necessary for one to be a member of the team because during the arrest as many policemen were required because they will send anybody just to arrest, as long as there was a directive. Any member who was around will be called in just to give support. That is why I am saying I don't want to dispute that, that I was involved in the arrest.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence before the Panel you have testified that you severely beat up Mr Chikororo and you severely tortured him. In your opinion, after you had severely beaten him and severely tortured him did he require medical attention or not?

MR NESAMARI: Yes, Mr Chikororo - I don't know how I can really describe this because I don't know the terms that the doctors really put but I could really observe that he was very weak. That is why I am saying we had broken him into - he was very weak. Well I can't explain in detail.

MS MTANGA: Are you not able to tell the Committee the visible signs of the witness you are referring to?

MR NESAMARI: With regard to the visible signs that one could remember and observe with the naked eye, I don't think I could identify anything, but physically let me say he was severely beaten, with internal and he was so weak.

MS MTANGA: Mr Nesamari did Mr Chikororo appear mentally disturbed after your torture and beating?

MR NESAMARI: Well I don't want to commit myself. Maybe the doctors will be able to give evidence. Well not to my naked eye. I don't want to commit myself, I will lie then.

MS MTANGA: When Mr Chikororo testifies he will testify that the reason that he was taken to hospital was because he appeared to be mentally disturbed. Do you dispute this?

MR NESAMARI: I can't dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Are you also aware that another visible sign of his weakness, as you say, was that after he was tortured by you his urine was black for three months after the torture?

MR NESAMARI: I didn't observe that. Well I can't really dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Did you apply electric shocks on Mr Chikororo's private parts?

MR NESAMARI: No I didn't reach there, the private parts. However, with regard to the other parts of the body, well I did that severely.

MS MTANGA: For how long did you torture Mr Chikororo?

MR NESAMARI: A long time, very long time. Maybe in a day's time.

MS MTANGA: Would you dispute Mr Chikororo's evidence that you tortured him for the whole day and part of the evening?

MR NESAMARI: Well I don't dispute that as well, I can't dispute that. It's true he was tortured severely. I can't dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did I not understand your previous evidence to have referred to him being interrogated and tortured for three days, when you were giving your viva voce evidence?

MR NESAMARI: Well it's true. I said it could have been three or four days.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Why now do you say you can't remember. You were able to give ...(intervention)

MR NESAMARI: I thought the question wanted me to talk about the period of time that is why I was able to say Mr Chikororo would say he was tortured the whole day. I don't know the question wanted me to say the period of time. Please pardon me if I didn't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr Meyer?

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe do you have any questions?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Nesamari can you just enlighten me on one aspect about how interrogations were conducted by junior members of the unit, that is the core unit that was set up to investigate suspects on the attack on Sibasa Police Station.

MR NESAMARI: Well are you referring to the junior members?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR NESAMARI: With regard to the interrogations by the junior members there was no specific directive which they were given as to how they will interrogate, but most of them will just voluntarily involved themselves. For example like the woman who was alluded to was not part of the team. She was just you know involved through some extraordinary means just to assault or just torture or assault them, especially in the absence of Mr Ramaligela.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem that there was very little discipline there or control or order. I mean it was an orgy of violence. Anyone who feels like punching or kicking somebody could just join in and come and punch and kick. They are not even part of the investigation. It was open game.

MR NESAMARI: Mr Chairperson as far as the Security is concerned, if I want to put it clearly, we were brainwashed by the Boers who were leading us. I will say personally I will take - we used to have those banned parties were enemies to us. We used no control and there was no discipline at all. I don't know how to put it because we were so brainwashed in such a way that we regarded them as enemies. That is why even when we were dealing with them we didn't have to take any care or that is why I am saying there was no discipline or control except when there was a senior member then we will really be disciplined.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Were you in the investigating team which compromised Ramaligela, Managa, were you ever instructed by Mr Ramaligela to conduct an interrogation of a suspect detained in relation to the Sibasa bombing attack, or did you do the interrogations of your own accord?

MR NESAMARI: Well normally we will interrogate them even in the presence of Mr Ramaligela. Unless if he had gone elsewhere he would leave us under the care of these people and interrogate them.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But would he assign you to conduct any interrogation of a given suspect?

MR NESAMARI: Well there was no specific method on prescribing as to how we do it. There was no method like that. He will just say just deal with them, interrogate them.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, but he would actually give you directives to deal with them?

MR NESAMARI: Well the only instruction that will come through will be if there were certain points which needed some clarity, for example during the interrogation of a particular suspect there were some elements which came clear that had to be - well he would then go to specifics and say Mr Chikororo, so and so, one, two, three, which we will have to have clarity on. That used to happen.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: How did you come to interrogate Mr Chikororo? Were you instructed by any member to do the interrogation?

MR NESAMARI: With regard to Mr Chikororo there was part of information which led us in the involvement of Mr Chikororo regarding his vehicle during the scene of the crime of the police station attack. It is alleged that his kombi was used in conveying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry the question is very simple Captain. The question was were you ever instructed to interrogate Mr Chikororo? Were you given that instruction by some superior officer - Constable go and interrogate Mr Chikororo?

MR NESAMARI: Yes I did receive that kind of instruction.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Who gave you that instruction?

MR NESAMARI: The instruction came from Mr Ramaligela and Mr Sofuwa.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramaligela and Mr - Mr Sofuwa?

MR NESAMARI: Sofuwa, yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was Mr Sofuwa a senior member to Mr Ramaligela or what?

MR NESAMARI: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And at that stage was Mr Ramushwana not yet in command of that investigating team?

MR NESAMARI: I can't recall that. Well I think Mr Ramushwana came later, but I can't recall that exactly as to whether it was before Mr Ramushwana but what I can only remember is that Mr Sofuwa was still there as the team leader.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Will you just allow me a very brief comment to Mr Nesamari. Mr Nesamari this Committee is not insensitive where there is a true need for anybody to become reconciled with the community but it's not a prerequisite for amnesty. So I thought that I should just suggest to you that if there's really a need that you could perhaps through your legal representative or through your church, after this has been concluded, arrange for such an opportunity to get the other things off your chest which you wanted to do here this morning and which we could not - as the Judge explained, in view of the time, allowed you to do.

Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions arising Mr Meyer?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Unfortunately we will have to adjourn this matter now. We won't be able to be sitting this afternoon. One of the Panel members is unfortunately not available. I am told that it's been agreed that we will be able to continue with this matter on the 28th and 29th of June, is that correct?

MR MEYER: Yes, that has been arranged Mr Chairman. We are available on those dates.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I confirm Mr Chairman we are available and we can continue on the 28th.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We will then have to postpone this matter to the 28th of June also for hearing on the 29th of June. That is a Monday and Tuesday. We will start at ten o'clock on the Monday. The first day takes time to set up all the equipment etc, so we will start at 10 o'clock on Monday the 28th of June and we will sit on the 29th of June until - this venue will also be available then, so unless otherwise advised, but I am sure it won't be changed, it will be at this venue here, the same place, 28th of June at 10 o'clock. Thank you very much.

We will be starting with another application tomorrow. It's got nothing to do with this application, so we as a Committee will then be adjourning until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock where we are going to resume the other hearing. Anybody who wishes to be present can do so if they want to, to hear the proceedings.

Thank you, we will adjourn now.