--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: ... at ten o'clock, it is now after twelve o'clock, so we will proceed immediately with the application of Mr Mahapo, but before we start, I would like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Adv Leah Gcabashe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she is an Advocate from Johannesburg. On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, also a member of the Amnesty Committee. He is an Attorney from Pietermaritzburg and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court, attached to the Transkei Division of the court. I would like the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.

MR FOURIE: I am J.G. Fourie for the applicant in this matter, I am from De Wet & Fourie Attorneys here in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Fourie.

MR FALKSON: Mr Chairperson, my name is Falkson, my initials are R.J., of the firm Friedland Hart & Partners Attorneys in Pretoria. I represent Mr Boy Makhubela, who is one of the victims mentioned in the record. You will note that I am on record in your papers.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Falkson.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. These proceedings will be simultaneously translated. I see that these devices are being handed out, if you don't have one of these devices and you wish to benefit from the translation, please obtain one from the Sound Technician. Channel 4 is it, on channel 4. Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson, my client is Tsonga speaking, I am not sure if they've got a Tsonga Interpreter here?

INTERPRETER: Not available Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure myself about that.

INTERPRETER: Any alternative language?

MR LAX: Mr Fourie, if you could just put on the headphones, then you can hear the Interpreter as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What languages can will be interpreted here?

MR FOURIE: Most of the people here are Tswana speaking, Mr Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: Either Tswana or Southern Sotho, so the applicant can choose which language to use between the two.

CHAIRPERSON: The choices then are Tswana, Southern Sotho...

INTERPRETER: And Northern Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: And Northern Sotho and English.

MR FOURIE: He elected to use Sotho, Mr Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: Which Sotho sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Southern Sotho or Northern Sotho?

MR FOURIE: Any one of them, it doesn't matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. If you have any difficulties with the interpretation, just please raise it immediately and we will see if we can deal with a difficulty if it arises. Are you going to be calling your client, Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chair.

RICHARD MABONGU MABONEY MAHAPO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Fourie?

EXAMINATION BY MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mahapo, during 1982, you decided to join the African National Congress and in 1993 (sic) you became a member of the ANC's military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe, is that correct?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: Why did you decide to join the ANC?

MR MAHAPO: It was because of our conditions of life within our country and the way black people were suffering, and how the government, the Police and the Defence Force, were treating our people.

MR FOURIE: How did they treat your people?

MR MAHAPO: I started experiencing new things in 1976. My brother whom I come after him, was shot on that year, during the riots. It was not only him alone, but many other people who were of his age and who were younger than him, they were also killed in that year. We were ill-treated. The way we were ill-treated, that is the reason which made me to decide to be a soldier so that I would be able to fight for all our African people within our country, those who were innocent and defenceless.

MR FOURIE: Was that the reason as to why you joined Umkhonto weSizwe at that stage?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: So, during 1993, 1983 you said, where were you trained?

MR MAHAPO: I was trained in Angola.

MR FOURIE: In Angola, and afterwards, continue?

MR MAHAPO: After my military training in Angola, I became sick. I wanted to further my studies, but they decided to transfer me to Tanzania. I received medical treatment, then after that, I started furthering my studies.

CHAIRPERSON: In which line were you studying, Mr Mahapo, what were you studying?

MR MAHAPO: I was studying general courses, I was studying generally.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say studying, academic studying or military or ...

MR MAHAPO: Academic studies, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you trying to get a matric or something like that?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I wanted to pass my matric.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR FOURIE: You said in 1976 your older brother was killed, by whom was he killed, do you know?

MR MAHAPO: I am not able to identify the people who were responsible for the killings, for the killing of my brother, but they were members of the South African Defence Force.

MR FOURIE: Can you tell us what happened in 1978?

MR MAHAPO: In 1978 I was from Hammanskraal to my grandmother's place, I ran from Alexander, that is my home, then I fled to my grandmother's place, then when I returned from Hammanskraal to go to Alexander, I was hiking on the road. After passing Pretoria, it was at night, it was approximately seven o'clock or eight o'clock, a car stopped. Inside was, the occupant of the car was a white person. He then invited me to car, then he asked me where I am going, then I told him that I am going home, in Alexander. Then he said it is at night, you will not be able to go home this time. Then he informed me that he would take me to his place where I would put up there. Then he told me again that he would drop me near home when he was going to work. He produced a South African Police badge, then he told me that he is a member of the South African Police Force, then we went to his place. He was alone, there was no other person except himself, there was no other person. He was together with his dog. Then he asked me as to whether I am hungry, then I said yes, then he gave me some food from the fridge. After that, he showed me where to sleep, his dog was sitting on the sofa. He undressed, then he told me to undress also, then I undressed, then I slept. We slept in one bed. After some time he produced his penis.

MR FOURIE: Were you sodomised then by him?

MR MAHAPO: Yes.

MR FOURIE: What influence did this incidents in 1976 and 1978, have on you as a person?

MR MAHAPO: At that time I was not able to understand what he was doing to me. After two or three years later, I started to realise that that was a painful experience, then I was young and I didn't even see the reason why he should do that to me.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your date of birth, what year were you born in?

MR MAHAPO: I was born in 1965, on the 2nd of February - the 3rd of February.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR FOURIE: Continue.

MR MAHAPO: When I thought of that experience, then I started, I knew that that person was a Policeman and he was the person who was supposed to help me, but he hurt me that even today I - I didn't even tell my mother, I am saying this for the first time here. My mother doesn't know what happened to me on that particular day and then tally that with the experience of the death of my brother, that created a big scar in my heart, that is why I decided to go for military training there and there.

MR FOURIE: On the 5th of January 1992 you returned to the RSA, is that correct?

INTERPRETER: May you please activate your microphone, I didn't hear the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The Interpreter is asking if you could please put the question again.

MR FOURIE: On the 5th of January 1992, you returned to the RSA, is that correct?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: What did you find when you returned to the RSA?

MR MAHAPO: I arrived at Shell House in Johannesburg, then I told them that I wanted to see my family. When I went to where my family was, I found that my family had relocated. I was informed that my house was burnt and I was told that they don't know where my family was at that time. Nobody was prepared to tell me exactly what happened, they just told me that they are staying at a certain place. I searched and the ANC was also helping me to look for my family. We were not able to get the place the same day, then the ANC rented a hotel for me in Hillbrow. That is in Safari Hotel, where I stayed.

MR FOURIE: So, did you get hold of them at a later stage then, your parents?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I found them at a later stage.

MR FOURIE: How did they appear to you, what happened when you found them?

MR MAHAPO: They were staying in a one-room in 17 Fourth Avenue in Alexandra, when I asked as to whether why did they leave where we used to stay, they told me what happened. My brother who comes after me, was burnt by people.

MR FOURIE: Is that your younger brother?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct. He was burnt in a shack house and they went to burn my house again. They even wanted to burn my mother.

MR FOURIE: Who told you that, how did you know that?

MR MAHAPO: I received the information from my mother, she showed me a copy of the Sowetan, which I even have with me, how this incident happened and the way he was not wanted by people in Alexander, that he is a witch. The whole family told me what happened. And that problem also increased the problems which I had.

MR FOURIE: Who did you blame for this?

MR MAHAPO: I blame the government.

MR FOURIE: Why?

MR MAHAPO: It is because of the political situation which existed at that time, which caused all these problems.

MR FOURIE: Does your mother know, or did she know, who killed your brother, your younger brother now?

MR MAHAPO: Even today, we would not be able to identify those people who killed, but she saw many people who were involved in the killing.

MR FOURIE: During that stage, at a later stage, you were employed as a security officer at Tetuka Security company, is that correct?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: What were you responsible, what were your duties?

MR MAHAPO: I was a junior Officer in that company and my work entailed the writing of temporary firearm permits and issuing of guns.

MR FOURIE: The Hammanskraal area, was it acquainted to you? How was the Hammanskraal community acquainted to you, or the area?

MR MAHAPO: My grandmother is staying in Hammanskraal in a place called kwaDibeng. I used to go at that particular village many times, visiting my grandmother and my aunt. That is a place which I knew very well.

MR FOURIE: Boy Makhubela, was he known to you?

MR MAHAPO: I don't want to lie, I know him through other people, I know him from a distance, I have never been close to him.

MR FOURIE: Can you tell us about him, what was the situation with him, your situation towards him? How did you feel about him?

MR MAHAPO: I used to regard him as my enemy.

MR FOURIE: Why?

MR MAHAPO: I regard him as my enemy because the people who were his neighbours, were not trusting him because that is a person that was visited by the Police many times, the Police used to come to his house many times. The people who were his neighbours, were not happy, or the community at large, was not happy. At that time, if you had a friendship or a relationship with the Police, as to whether what kind of relationship, the people don't pay attention to what kind of relationship you have. You are just regarded as an informer because you are working, or you have a relationship with the Police. That is how I regarded Boy as a Police informer.

MR FOURIE: How did you act towards informers during that stage?

MR MAHAPO: If we are able to identify a person as an informer, we knew that that person was a security risk, because there is nothing we will do in his presence, because if he can observe those things, the Police would know what was happening, so that kind of a person was not wanted. That kind of person was killed because we were involved in the struggle, and that person would be helping our enemies and he was staying with us in a particular situation.

MR FOURIE: As you have heard then that Boy Makhubela was a Police informer, what did you intend to do, what did you want to do about this?

MR MAHAPO: Because many people were afraid of him, I said I will do my work to kill him. I started by arranging the necessary devices, then thereafter I would kill him.

MR FOURIE: What devices are you talking about?

MR MAHAPO: I wanted a gun, I didn't want to use my personal firearm.

MR FOURIE: Yes, continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mahapo, when you say you didn't want to use your personal firearm, were you in possession of a licensed firearm at that stage?

MR MAHAPO: At that time I didn't have my personal firearm, but I was ready to buy one.

MR FOURIE: Where did you get this other firearm then from?

MR MAHAPO: I took it from work.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you took it from work, did you steel it?

MR MAHAPO: No, I did not steel it. I did not issue it back, it was usually on my person, but on that particular day I did not take it back.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of firearm was it?

MR MAHAPO: That is a .38 Revolver Special.

MR FOURIE: What did you intend doing with this firearm after taking it?

MR MAHAPO: I was going to shoot Boy with it, I was going to shoot Boy Makhubela.

MR FOURIE: When was this, how long before this incident or whatever was, before this plan of yours, when you took the firearm? You took the firearm at a certain stage from your work, and when did you want to use it to kill Boy?

MR MAHAPO: I took the gun on Friday, I knew that on Saturday or Sunday when I am not working ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember the date when you took the gun, what period of time was it, what day, if you don't remember the day, what month was it, what year was it?

MR MAHAPO: That was in April. I am not sure whether it was on the 28th or the 29th of April, but it was on a Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: 1990 ...?

MR MAHAPO: 1994.

MR FOURIE: Continue, what happened then?

MR MAHAPO: I knew that on Monday when we go back to duty, because I am the one who arrives first, I would be able to include that gun, I will return that gun without other people knowing that I used that firearm, because I was in charge of those firearms at work.

MR FOURIE: Tell us about the robbing of a motor vehicle afterwards. When did you, at a certain stage, didn't you plan to rob a motor vehicle, is that correct? Is that so?

MR MAHAPO: Yes.

MR FOURIE: What did you want to do with the motor vehicle, why did you want to rob it?

MR MAHAPO: I wanted to use that car to Hammanskraal to Boy's place. After that, I would just leave it anywhere.

MR FOURIE: Where did you plan to get the motor vehicle, where did you plan to rob this motor vehicle?

MR MAHAPO: On Friday when I took that firearm, I have already planned where I would fetch that car. I knew that I would rob a Mexican taxi, because I knew that many of them belonged to the Policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, a what taxi?

MR MAHAPO: That is a maxi taxi.

MR FOURIE: Yes?

MR MAHAPO: I knew that most of the maxi taxi's, many of them belonged to the Police, it was not possible for black people to be members of that Taxi Association, it belonged to white people. Many of those cars belonged to white Policemen.

MR FOURIE: How did you plan to get hold of this? How did you plan to get hold of this motor vehicle, this maxi motor vehicle ...

MR MAHAPO: I knew how they were working. They are meter taxi's, you just get inside and then the driver would ask you where are you going, and when you arrive at your destination, you pay that person, that is how. I saw the taxi arriving, then I entered, then I informed him that I am going to Alexandra. He did not ask me many questions, then we went to Alexandra.

MR FOURIE: At what place did you get this taxi motor vehicle, did you board it?

MR MAHAPO: That is in Hillbrow. That is corner Abel in Hillbrow. That is corner Abel Road.

MR FOURIE: When was this?

MR MAHAPO: It was on a Saturday.

MR FOURIE: Is that the Saturday that follows the Friday on which you took the gun?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: And so you boarded this taxi and what exactly did you do then after this?

MR MAHAPO: Then I informed him that I am going to Alexandra. When I arrived, I was able to observe that the driver was not - when we arrived at a particular place in Alexandra, I said to this person who was driving, I told him that I am taking this car. When he heard me say so, he did not wait for anything to happen, he opened the door and then he ran away.

MR FOURIE: Was this taxi driver known to you?

MR MAHAPO: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you point your gun at him?

MR MAHAPO: No, I did not produce my firearm, he did not see that I was armed.

CHAIRPERSON: So you just said to him "look, I am taking the car" and he just ran away and left the car with you in it?

MR MAHAPO: I told him that I am taking this car. Because he is a taxi driver, he knows that there are many hijackers and when a car hijacker says to you "I am taking this car", you know that that person is armed.

MR FOURIE: Was there anybody else in that motor vehicle, that taxi, with you?

MR MAHAPO: No, it was myself and the driver only.

MR FOURIE: After taking the taxi motor vehicle then, what did you do, what happened after that?

MR MAHAPO: I took that car, then I parked that car in a certain yard, then I said I will use that car the following day. I knew that they would be waiting for me in certain roadblocks, because there were so many taxi's in Alexander. Maybe he could have stopped one taxi and then informed him what had happened, then I was afraid I would be detained, I would be arrested before I accomplished my mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mahapo, this vehicle that you took, was it pained on the side that it was a taxi and did it have a light on top? If you were standing outside the vehicle, was it apparent to everyone else that it was a taxi, was it marked as such.

MR MAHAPO: It has this thing which is put on the top, this light that ways "taxi".

CHAIRPERSON: That light? Can you take that off or was it fixed on top?

MR MAHAPO: I was not able to search whether one was able to remove that thing on top, I just took that car and parked it in a certain yard. After that, the following morning, that is on Sunday...

MR FOURIE: I apologise, which yard was that, how far from where you lived or whatever, was this?

MR MAHAPO: We were staying at 17 Fourth Avenue and the yard where I put that car in, is either number 20 or 22 Fourth Avenue in Alexandra.

MR FOURIE: This yard where you parked this motor vehicle in, or this taxi, was the people of that yard known to you?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, there were people who were staying there, which I know. You know that in Alexandra many people stay in one yard. I just parked that car there and people were asleep at that time, nobody noticed me. I just parked the car there and then left.

MR FOURIE: Just to come back to the driver of that taxi again. Did you injure him or was he injured by you?

MR MAHAPO: No, I did not even touch him. I did not even touch him. There is nothing I did to him. If I was prepared to do something, even when he left and ran away, I could have done something. I could have shot him at a distance, I was not prepared to do anything to him because I was only interested in the car.

MR FOURIE: Okay, continue, you've got a car, it was parked in the yard, and then?

MR MAHAPO: On Sunday I prepared myself, then I bought handgloves, then I prepared myself. Around eight, nine o'clock, then I started looking for somebody who would accompany me to Hammanskraal. I went to fetch my friend called Elliot, I found him at a certain shebeen, then I informed him that he should accompany me to Hammanskraal. He said to me what are you going to do in Hammanskraal and I said I am going to visit. You know that young people want to visit, then I took him, then I went to collect my brother who is William Baloyi. He was staying where I was staying before, then I collected him to accompany to my grandmother in Hammanskraal. He was interested in going to Hammanskraal.

MR FOURIE: These two guys that you picked up, your brother-in-law and the other one, were they aware of your plans?

MR MAHAPO: No, no one knew of my plans.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry William Baloyi, you said he was your brother, do you mean your brother-in-law? What - was he related to you, William Baloyi?

MR MAHAPO: That is my brother, my mother and his mother are sisters.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so your cousin, yes?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: Were they aware that that vehicle, that taxi motor vehicle, was robbed or it was a stolen vehicle?

INTERPRETER: Could you repeat the question please.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was were either of them, that is Elliot or William Baloyi aware of the fact that the vehicle in which you were in, was a stolen vehicle?

MR MAHAPO: No, no one knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mahapo, why did you want to take Elliot and William Baloyi with you?

MR MAHAPO: Elliot is my friend, I always liked to be with him because I know that he grew up in Hammanskraal and he knows many placed in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were prepared to kill Boy Makhubela in their presence, was that your plan, were you going to have them there when you killed Mr Makhubela?

MR MAHAPO: No, that was not my plan. I just wanted him to give me directions without me using the main road, other roads which I could use to enter Hammanskraal and exit Hammanskraal. I just anted him to give me directions.

MR FOURIE: Where did you intend dropping them off then if you didn't want to take them with you, what did you intend doing with them afterwards?

MR MAHAPO: I know some few shebeens in that area, so I knew that I would drop the two of them there, buy them some liquor and go out for my mission.

MR FOURIE: What did you intend doing with the motor vehicle, or this taxi, after completing your mission?

MR MAHAPO: I would just have dumped it somewhere along the road and then we would use another transport to return because I only intended to use it for that mission. After the mission, I would leave that car anywhere

MR FOURIE: Can you just broadly say what your plan was to execute Boy Makhubela, what exactly were your plans by killing him, what would you have done?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the question sir?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was what plan did you have to kill Mr Makhubela, how did you intend to kill him, how were you going to carry out your mission?

MR MAHAPO: I knew that when I arrived there at his place, I had a belief that maybe I will find him with the Police in that area. My plan was that when I find him with the Police, then I would be forced to shoot him together with those Police who would be with him. I would make sure that even if other Policemen could survive, he would not survive because he was the main person, my main enemy. Then from there, I would use that car that I have hijacked, to dump it anywhere and then return back to Alexandra.

MR FOURIE: During this stage, when this whole thing took place, were you still a member of the ANC?

MR MAHAPO: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: And in your opinion, what was the ANC's view towards the Police and the government at that stage?

MR MAHAPO: The ANC knew what this people were doing, the ANC knew that they were still continue killing people, they never stopped killing people, so the ANC never trusted the previous government. That did not mean that we should not protect the community, it was our responsibility to protect the communities.

MR FOURIE: Did you think at that stage that the ANC would have approved your plan, or the whole thing that - how you planned at that stage? Did you think that the ANC would approve the killing of Boy Makhubela at that stage?

MR MAHAPO: I don't think the ANC would disagree with us if they could hear our aim of killing Boy Makhubela. I don't mean that the ANC would agree with any killing of any person, but that would depend on the reasons for killing such a person. If the people or the community have decided to do something, I don't think the ANC would disagree with what the community has decided.

MR FOURIE: If it wasn't for Boy Makhubela being an informer for the Police as you thought, would you have then killed him or did you have any interest in killing him?

MR MAHAPO: In my life, I never killed a person before that. Where I come from in Angola, even if I killed, a person died as a result of my shooting, he might have died, but I didn't know that I killed a person. This mission was as a result of the circumstances at that time, circumstances in which I found myself, so that would be the first person that I killed in South Africa.

MR FOURIE: And if you think now about what you wanted, if you think now about what you intended to do during that stage and your acts and stuff, do you think that was the correct thing to do? How do you feel now about that intentions of yours, during that time?

MR MAHAPO: Even today I don't know what to say when I look back at all these things. I am afraid, I ask myself why did I do this, why did I have to find myself killing a person. I thank the prison because when I arrived at prison, I got counselling, I was attended to be Doctors, they gave me counselling and that changed my perception. That is why even today I see a Policeman and a soldier as a person. Now I realise that without these people we cannot prosper as a nation. I ask myself why did I hate these people. Maybe the thing that I killed him for, was not true. I really don't know what to say, even today, I don't know how will I be able to face him, because maybe it wasn't true that he was an informer, so it is really painful to me. I felt that pain as well, even my family felt that pain, but a person like Boy, I never knew this person before. The only thing that I know is what I heard about him, but I still ask myself even today, if that was not true, maybe it was something that was just said by people, what would I say to him, I really don't know what to say. I will put all these things that I did, on the shoulders of the previous government because before that, I never killed a person. I don't know what to say about the thing that forced me to intend to kill somebody. I thank God that I was cornered by the Police and imprisoned and ultimately being treated by the Doctors in jail. The treatment that I got, I think even my family wants to get that treatment, because it is still painful to them, even today.

MR FOURIE: I neglected to ask you, after the robbing of the motor vehicle, how did it come that you couldn't execute your plan?

MR MAHAPO: It was my plan, not our plan.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Fourie is asking you is why was it that the plan was never carried out? You have told us now that you collected Elliot and William Baloyi and now you are in the motor car and you want to go by the back roads to Hammanskraal, what happened then?

MR MAHAPO: After collecting them, Elliot and William, we left so when we arrived at New Lock, at the robots at New Lock ...

CHAIRPERSON: What is that place, New Lock?

MR MAHAPO: New Lock, it is just next to the prison, New Lock prison, at the robots, there was a roadblock there, so when they searched us and they asked us about the car, then I told them that it was my car and then they investigated this through the radio and they learned that this car was hijacked. I disagreed with them, I said "no, it was not hijacked" and then they said to me, "you will tell us what happened." They searched us, the three of us and when they came to search me, they found a gun and about 12 or 16 cartridges in my pocket and others inside the .38 gun.

MR FOURIE: Was that the gun that you took from your employer?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is the gun that I got from my employer.

MR LAX: Sorry, did I understand you correctly, they found the gun and the cartridges on your person, is that right? You said in your pocket?

MR MAHAPO: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: And after they caught you, what happened then, I suppose you were convicted in the Regional Court, that is what is here, and you were sentenced to 10 years imprisonment, is that so?

MR MAHAPO: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: If the Committee decides to grant you amnesty in this application, what contribution do you think will you make to society?

MR MAHAPO: It is painful to see myself where I am, because I fought for this country and I did not see all this that had happened, because I had been in jail all these years, so I have been unable to do anything. I have seen many things on TV while I was in jail. I see children on the streets and many other things. I realise that I can be of help to these young kids on the streets. The other thing, my family felt that pain, they were affected by this. I am not only counting my family only, and all other people who have lost their loved once since the beginning of this struggle, political struggle, it is my wish that there can be a place where I can help these unemployed people to get work, so that they forget all these things that happened, so that I can show them that I am also part of the broader South African community. I want to see something done, something that I can do. If there can be a way that I can use to heal the wounds that I have felt. Even Boy himself, whom I robbed the car, felt a great pain. I don't know what I will say to him, even if I can see him today. It can happen that he lost a job, I don't know how I can be able to reach out to him. I owe a lot to the community, I think there is a lot of work that I have to do in the community when I am granted amnesty, so that I can show these people that it is not me who did this thing. Just to show them that I was not the person that I was in that time. I just want to show them the real self, something that I can do for this nation.

MR FOURIE: So you are remorseful, really remorseful for what you did, or planned to do in any way?

MR MAHAPO: I will be the first child in my family to kill somebody, even when I am sitting here, I am frightened because I never intended to do something like that. I even fear when I see somebody trying to injure someone.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairman, he just wants to add one or two sentences.

MR MAHAPO: The way I hated the Police and the way I hated the South African, members of the South African Defence Force, I am willing that when I see a Policeman or a member of the Defence Force, I am willing and ready to die to protect the member of the Police or the member of the Defence Force. There will be no nation which will exist without Security. It was a wrong thing which I wanted to do, but I am ready to lay down my life to protect members of the Police and members of the Defence Force, especially those who are defenceless and voiceless. I am prepared at all times, to help those people.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Fourie, have you finished now, thank you.

MR FOURIE: We have finished, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falkson, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FALKSON: Thank you Mr Chairperson, thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. Mr Mahapo, I am here on behalf of Mr Wilson Boy Makhubela, who is the person that you had been telling the Commission about. Are you able to tell the Commission the address at which you were going to go to on this particular night when you intended to kill Mr Makhubela?

MR MAHAPO: I cannot be able to give that address, but I know that place. I don't know the number of his house, but I know it.

MR FALKSON: In what village is his house situated?

MR MAHAPO: Swartbooi Stad in Matibe Stad.

CHAIRPERSON: What is Swartbooi Stad?

MR FALKSON: How did you come to know that that was where he was staying?

MR MAHAPO: Like I said, my grandmother's house is not far from where he lived.

MR FALKSON: I understand that but how did you know where he lived, who told you where he was living? The fact that your grandmother lived at a place nearby, doesn't necessarily mean that you will then just simply know where everybody, or where hew as living. Who told you where his house was?

MR MAHAPO: I cannot be able to say who told me because I also belonged to that place, and I knew that is the Makhubela house, I know his cars, they are always there, so it was easy for me to know that he lived there. Nobody told me, I knew.

MR FALKSON: So when you said earlier on in your evidence that you never knew this man or this person before and you had just heard about him, was that not correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he knew him from a distance.

MR FALKSON: Is your answer that you knew who he was, but you did not know him personally as such? Is that your answer?

MR MAHAPO: I said Boy Makhubela, I knew him, I knew that he was Boy Makhubela, but at a distance. I have never come nearer him, I only knew his name, I knew that he was Boy.

MR FALKSON: Did you know that he operated a shebeen at his house at that stage?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I knew.

MR FALKSON: And therefore you also knew that on this particular night that you were going to go to his house, there was a shebeen there?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I knew that it was a shebeen.

MR FALKSON: And did you then intend killing him in the presence of all the people that were at the shebeen?

MR MAHAPO: At that time I planned to kill him, it was no longer a shebeen like it used to be before that. On Sundays he would close early, but that time when I went there, it was no longer a shebeen, it had already been closed.

MR FALKSON: So it is not relevant for you to now tell us that on Sundays he would close early, because you were saying that he had closed his shebeen at that time, is that right?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, it was no longer a shebeen at that time.

MR FALKSON: Are you able to disclose to the Committee who it was that told you that he was a Police informer?

MR MAHAPO: I will be laying if I can say I can point somebody who told me about that. Nobody told me that he was an informer, many people were saying so, people in that area. There is no individual who came to me and said that person is an informer, that was said by the broader community that he was an informer. I cannot really point an individual person and say he is the one who told me.

MR FALKSON: Is the reason why and I am just repeating I think what you have already said, the reason that people thought that he was an informer or a Police informer was that they saw Police persons going to the shebeen, to his house where the shebeen was, from time to time?

MR MAHAPO: It can be so, it can be so that people saw Policemen frequenting that place, it can also happen that the people knew something. They must have heard something that he was an informer. I am unable to say why people believed that he was an informer. But during those times, when a black person is seen in the company of Policemen, most of the time, it will end up he being suspected as an informer, so I think the people believed that he was an informer, so that made me also to believe that he was a Police informer.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Falkson, when you say Police informer, would this be an informer to the South African Police or the Bophuthatswana Police?

MR MAHAPO: The Bophuthatswana Police, Chair.

MR FALKSON: Mr Makhubela is here today and he will tell the Commission that the Police used to come to his shebeen because he had no licence and they would come there to get free liquor on the basis that if they were given free liquor, they would then not close his shebeen down or fine him for operating an unlicensed shebeen. Are you able to dispute that?

MR MAHAPO: I cannot dispute that, I cannot disagree with him when he says so. In those days, it would be difficult for me to believe if he had told me that, it would be difficult for me to believe that the Police would only come there for free liquor because he didn't have a licence, so that they could not arrest him. Some people would say that the Police would come there during the day, others would also come at night, but if he says so today, I would believe him, because I don't think there is any reason why he should tell a lie.

MR FALKSON: And are you aware of the fact that the shebeen was not only opened at night, it was also open during the day?

MR MAHAPO: I know very well that it was operating during the day and it was closing at night. I knew that well. It used to operate during the day and sometimes at night, but on Sundays he would close the shebeen very early.

ADV GCABASHE : Mr Falkson, I am just a bit lost in relation to your question, I am not sure if you are asking about the day of the incident, did he know that the shebeen operated during the day as well, or if you are talking about the time prior to the incident? If you could just clarify that, then I will understand the answer a little better as well.

MR FALKSON: Through the Chair, the evidence was that he knew that the shebeen was frequented by Policemen at night and also during the day, and I then followed up that evidence with simply the question that historically, that the shebeen had been open, not only during the night but also during the day and that if Policemen went there during the day, they would also be going there to obtain free liquor when they were off duty or whatever.

ADV GCABASHE : Mr Mahapo, let me ask you in that case, are you talking about the historical period or are you talking about on the day of the incident, you knew the shebeen to operate during the day and at night, just clarify that for me, I am totally confused.

MR MAHAPO: I am saying before the day of the incident, I knew that it would operate during the day and at night, that was before it closed.

ADV GCABASHE : Now just determine that before the incident for us, you returned in 1992, are you talking prior 1992 or between 1992 and 1994, just give us a sense of what period you are referring to.

MR MAHAPO: That is between 1992 and 1994.

ADV GCABASHE : Can you also indicate when you came to know that it had closed?

MR MAHAPO: I cannot surely say, but I can say 1994 from January, it had already been closed then, but I cannot say with certainty when it closed.

ADV GCABASHE : That assists me, thank you.

MR FALKSON: Is it not possible that you are incorrect when you say that it closed in 1994, that it in fact closed later, in 1995?

MR MAHAPO: In 1995 I was already in jail, I am talking about something while I was still outside. That shebeen was not operating at that time, he was not selling, if he was selling somewhere, but not at that tavern. I have certainty about that that in 1994, it had already closed in January, 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahapo, did you ever at any time, frequent that shebeen as a customer?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And how do you know that it was closed from during or about January 1994?

MR MAHAPO: In December 1993 I was at Hammanskraal at my grandmother's place and when I arrived, I was told that it had been closed, that it was no longer operating. Why it was closed, nobody knew.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't see with your own yes that it was closed but that was what you had been told?

MR MAHAPO: From that tavern to my grandmother's place, it can be a distance of 200 metres, or between 180 and 200 metres, so when I am at my grandmother's place, I can see, I can even hear the sound. Sometimes I would just pass by there, so I would know if it was still operating.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one question arising out of one that I asked you earlier, why would you frequent a shebeen of a person whom you felt to be your enemy?

MR MAHAPO: I was not frequenting that shebeen, but I would just pass by, not that I would be visiting that shebeen. When I say I once drunk there, it is true and that is when I returned to this country in 1992. The information about him being an informer, I received after I had already drunk at that shebeen.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Falkson, you can continue.

MR FALKSON: May it please the chair. Can you just give us an explanation as to why it was necessary for you on the day that you went to kill Mr Makhubela, you have told us that you took your friend Elliot with you because he knew the area well and you liked to have him with you when you did things, but you haven't given us any explanation as to why you then also took William Baloyi along to accompany you at that occasion. Can you give us an explanation please?

MR MAHAPO: Maybe you did not understand me sir, I said William Baloyi knew this place well, not Elliot. I said William Baloyi knew that place because he grew up in that area, he was staying at my grandmother's place and he knew that area very well. Elliot is just a friend that I took along with me. There was no other reason why I wanted him to accompany me. Sometimes I would just hang around with him. The reason - you asked me the question why it was necessary or important to me that we should kill Mr Makhubela, if I understood you well sir.

MR FALKSON: No, I never asked you that question, you had given your reasons for that already. What I asked you is why it was necessary for you to take these two people? I understood that you had said that Elliot was your friend and he knew the place well and you wanted him to come with you to show you around the place and to show you how to get out on quiet roads and so on, that is what I understood you to have said. In your evidence in chief you said that and I am going to try and quote you as closely as I can -

Then you went on to say -

Are you conceding then that in fact, it is quite possible, in fact if the evidence was given by Mr Makhubela that he had nothing to do with the Police by way of being an informer at all, and that his only contact with the Police was because of the illegal shebeen that he had, the reasons that I have already explained to you.

MR MAHAPO: I cannot say whether it is true or it is untrue, because I don't think there is any person who can agree that he was an informer, there is no person who can actually say yes, I was an informer, but I do not dispute that it could have happened that he was not an informer. What I am saying is that I don't think any person can really say that he was an informer because in those days, if people knew that you were an informer, you would be hated by the community. It could have happened that he was not an informer and it can equally happen that he was an informer.

MR FALKSON: The only reason at that time for your belief that he was an informer, was that you heard from other people that the Police used to go to his place regularly? You had no other information at all as to him being an informer or not?

MR MAHAPO: This was said by the community, I also saw people on many occasions at his place. I used to see them visiting his place. Sometimes they would leave their cars there at night, and walk on foot on their patrol. I am talking about many occasions, something that happened on many occasions, not only once.

MR FALKSON: May I just point out to you that I have read through the statements that you have made in support of your application for amnesty, and listened to your evidence today, and this is the first time that I have heard it said by you that you saw the Police going to Mr Makhubela's place on many occasions, all of what has been placed before this Committee up to now, is that different people had told you that they had seen the Police going there and for the first time you are now saying that you saw this with your own eyes. Why is it that you have not said so before?

MR MAHAPO: I asked you a question, which application are you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Falkson is saying, Mr Mahapo, is that in the documents you have made statements, you can see them, I am sure your Attorney next to you has got them there where you signed yourself, and you filled in an application form and made statements. What Mr Falkson is saying is that in none of those previous written statements that we have in our possession, have you mentioned that you, yourself with your own eyes saw Policemen going to Mr Makhubela's place or mentioned the Police cars used to park out there and then they walk on foot on their patrols. You are mentioning it for the first time in response to his question right now. He is saying why haven't you said that before in any of these statements, that is what his question is.

MR MAHAPO: I thought when I said to him the Police used to come, used to frequent his place, that would be a reason enough for him that I know that the Police used to visit his place. Yes, it is true that I did not put it in my statement, but that is a thing that I knew all this time. If I made a mistake by not including this in my statement, it is my mistake, but I knew that it used to happen and again, many people used to say that, used to inform me about the Police frequenting his place. It is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falkson I think this might be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment. I see it is twenty five passed one and I see people standing up and down anxiously at the end of the room, so if we can adjourn until - it is twenty five passed one now, until two o'clock, we will resume at two o'clock.

MR FALKSON: May it please Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will take the lunch adjournment.

ON RESUMPTION:

RICHARD MABONGU MABONEY MAHAPO: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falkson, do you have any further questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FALKSON: (cont)

Mr Chairperson, just two questions. You gave evidence that at the time of the actual hijacking, that you didn't harm the driver of the taxi, do you recall that?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I do.

MR FALKSON: If the driver of the taxi had resisted your taking the car, would you have been prepared to shoot him?

MR MAHAPO: I couldn't have shot him. I didn't see why he would resist.

MR FALKSON: Now, when you made this decision to shoot Mr Makhubela, you told us that it was either the 29th or the 30th of April 1994, is that right? According to the record of the criminal proceedings, the incident of the hijacking took place I think it is on the 30th of April, it is recorded as being the 30th of April. Do you dispute that?

MR MAHAPO: I am not sure of the date, but I want to know when was the 30th, was it Saturday? If the 30th was on Saturday, therefore which means I planned the 29th, when I took the firearm from work.

CHAIRPERSON: But you agree that it was in that period, either the 29th or 30, or maybe even the 28th of April 1994?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I do agree.

MR FALKSON: And that was after the elections in 1994 had already taken place and the country had already been transformed into a democratic society, isn't that correct?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, it was after the elections.

MR FALKSON: Were you not then happy with the way things had gone and that everybody had been free to vote and to vote for their own government that they wanted, was that no sufficient for you at the time?

MR MAHAPO: If you remember well at that time, you would remember that many things happened in Bophuthatswana. The AWB was fighting that there would be no democratic elections in Bophuthatswana and that they did not allow themselves to be governed with the ANC, if you remember well. There was political unrest in Bophuthatswana at that time. The residents of Bophuthatswana rose against Mangope, it is not to say that Bophuthatswana at that time, was not prepared to allow democratic elections to happen in that country.

CHAIRPERSON: The AWB battle or war whatever you want to call it, that took place in Mafikeng, took place on the 11th of March 1994 and the reason being for that was their resistance by the Bophuthatswana government against reincorporation into the broader South Africa, but by the time the elections took place, that question had been settled and Bophuthatswana was indeed incorporated at the same time as were Transkei, Venda and Ciskei, into a greater South Africa, they didn't get incorporation or re-incorporation after the 24th of April.

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I agree with you sir.

MR FALKSON: You have already conceded that you may have been entirely wrong in your belief that Mr Makhubela was a Police informer. Did you know at the time that Mr Makhubela was the father of four young children and the sole supporter of four young children? You have already given evidence that you knew his place and that you could see his place from your mother's house, were you aware of the fact that he had this family that he was supporting?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I knew.

MR FALKSON: And were you not in any way concerned with the fact that if you were to kill him, that there would be innocent people who would be left without any form of support?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I was aware of that, then I think I thought of that. But my priority at that time in my mind, was that this person would be selling the community so that he would be able to support himself and his family. The community would suffer because of him. His children were innocent and I am not saying they were guilty, but I had to weigh the interest of the community who suffered because of him. Himself together with his family, were not above the community interest. I am talking about five people, but we have to weigh that with many people who were living around there, there is no way where you could weigh the interest of one person above the interest of the whole community. I am aware of that that I could have done an evil thing because those children would be fatherless, but at that time, my first priority was the community.

MR FALKSON: Were you aware at that time of any specific instances where the community had been made to suffer or adversely affected in any way by anything that Mr Makhubela had done or had said to the Police or anything like that? Did you know of anything specific or was it just this rumour that you had heard that he was a Police informer?

MR MAHAPO: If you knew the political situation in our area during that time, there would be no political activity if the community knew that one person would put them in danger, by informing the Police, they would not do their political activities freely for their own political party, knowing that there was somebody who was having a relationship with the Police.

MR LAX: Mr Mahapo, just to repeat the question. You are speaking in very vague and general terms, the question is very specific, do you know of a single incident, a specific instance where anything that Mr Makhubela may have done or said to the Police, led to anybody else being hurt or injured or arrested or in any way suffering caused?

MR MAHAPO: I would be committing myself, I do not know. I do not know.

MR FALKSON: I have no further questions, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Falkson. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: I do have a few questions Chairperson, thank you. Mr Mahapo, when did you take up employment with Tetuka Security?

MR MAHAPO: That is in 1994, January 1994 if I am not mistaken.

MS MTANGA: Were you involved in any political activities between 1992 when you returned to the country and 1994, what were you doing politically?

MR MAHAPO: No.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence you keep referring to the political situation of that time, can you be specific about the political situation of Hammanskraal, that is the township itself, not the general situation, what was the political situation at Hammanskraal at that time?

MR MAHAPO: The people of Hammanskraal were not showing clearly their political affiliations, because the former government within that area, didn't want to hear, was actually against the ANC. Many people anted to have meetings and political activities, but they were afraid to do that because the former government, or Mangope's government, did not allow free political activity, especially when people want to align themselves with the ANC.

MS MTANGA: Did you know any political activists in the area of Mr Makhubela, where you allege he was an informer, do you know of any political activists there?

MR MAHAPO: No, at the time I did not know them. I knew that there were members around that area, but I did not know who were actually active in politics in that area.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence Mr Mahapo you are saying that you intended to kill Mr Makhubela because the community was suffering because of his informing on the people, what grounds do you have for that, who was suffering as a result of his informing, because you knew of no activity, you didn't know political activists in the area, so who perceived him as an informer and what was he informing on?

MR MAHAPO: When you talk about informing, I will start this way - the community as a whole, it is difficult for a person to be politically active in that particular area because if he can be exposed, that is his death especially when they know that there is a person who is alleged to be working with the Police. If a person is known that he is a member of the ANC, he will be putting himself in danger. Secondly, the ANC members were many, I don't know as to whether they wanted to be exposed, but they were not able to fight Mr Makhubela, because most of them were not military trained in that particular area. They were not trained military.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahapo, the problem that I have with your evidence is that at the time you were planning to kill Mr Makhubela, you are unable to give us any political activity that was occurring then, that had been endangered by him. You are unable to do that. Secondly the elections had already taken place and surely the results were already out at the time you were planning to kill him? Hammanskraal which fell under North West at that time, had voted in large numbers for the ANC, so what danger was he posing to the ANC at that time?

MR MAHAPO: I would explain it this way, I knew about this person before the elections. As to whether what he did and when, that is not what I know. But I knew that they would not be able to confront him. They would not tell us about those complaints without any reasons. I am not able to tell you how many people were endangered because of him, I am not able to explain that fact, but many people wanted to live freely and to do their political activities. Only when there was nobody who was an obstacle.

MS MTANGA: But Mr Mahapo, if I may repeat this, people had already voted, they were free, they had voted for their liberation and North West had voted in the majority for the ANC, what activity was endangered? You still don't answer that question. To move on, I just want to know, who were you supposed to get an approval from, if you wanted, as an ANC member and as an MK cadre, if you were to be involved in an operation, from whom would you get an approval for that operation?

MR MAHAPO: It will come from my Commander.

MS MTANGA: Who was your Commander?

MR MAHAPO: (No translation)

MS MTANGA: Was it the policy of the ANC that if you don't belong to any Unit ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't get the translation for the last one.

INTERPRETER: Inside the country, I was not a member of any particular Unit.

MS MTANGA: Was it the policy of the ANC that if you don't belong to any Unit, you can just carry on your own operations without getting any approval from any senior person?

MR MAHAPO: No, it is not.

MS MTANGA: So why did you carry on this operation to kill a person without an approval by your seniors?

MR MAHAPO: The way it could have happened since many members of the community and the community at large were saying we are not satisfied with a particular person, that particular person is a danger. Even if I did that, I could have explained that the community instructed me, so I did that because of the orders from the community because the community was complaining about that particular person. I could have executed this operation under the instruction of the community, I could have informed the ANC that it is the community which assigned me to this particular operation, because the community was complaining.

ADV GCABASHE : Mr Mahapo, my difficulty is the community did not assign you to execute this particular operation, you assigned yourself because of what you heard from particular people in the community, so it is not correct to say the community gave you the assignment or have I missed something here?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, you heard me correctly. Their complain, the community's complain to me, it appears as an order because I have the solution for the complaint of that particular community, so I decided to solve their problem.

ADV GCABASHE : Yes, but do two people make up the community and therefore are authorised to give you orders, do 10 people make up the community, do 100 people make up the community? Do you understand my difficulty, you have not been able to tell us how many people told you that Mr Makhubela was a problem to them. We have this undefined group of people who you are calling the community and you are now saying they are the ones who then gave you the order, in an indirect way, I understand that, in an indirect way they gave you this order. It is difficult to comprehend.

MR MAHAPO: Yes. Yes, I didn't hear this from one person, I heard it from many people. Even if I am not able to specify the number, but they are above 10 or 15, it would be more than 20. Even if some did not tell me, they were just talking freely. The place like the one which Mr Makhubela used to stay, it is not a big place like Soweto because the people around there know each other, they would talk freely about these issues, even if they don't tell you directly. Not that they would come to me directly and inform me about a particular problem. I could have heard it from 10 to 12 people, but many people who observed it, used to talk about that very same issue.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, Mr Mahapo, if in your evidence you are admitting that you didn't get an approval from the ANC, only acted upon what people were complaining about, the community was complaining about and even from the community, you didn't get a specific order for you to kill Mr Makhubela, how would you explain or tell this Committee that your actions were furthering the political objectives of the ANC when you had not acted upon the orders of the ANC?

MR MAHAPO: At times we ask ourselves as to whether when you see, you observe a particular issue, that it should be done, you've got to do it, even if it is not aligned with a political objective or you were not instructed. If you see that you've got to do something which needs to be done, because it is then because of the community and if a particular community has a problem, we as members of the ANC, we've got to listen to the problems of that particular community. Yes, the ANC did not give me an instruction to do that particular operation. I would not say, I would not agree with that, what I know is that the ANC did not have a place for sell-outs, it did not have a place for sell-outs. I do not say that the ANC would dispute that what I did, is not right or it is not politically right, it would not dispute that what I did was politically right. I was not assigned by the community, but because of the complaints from the community and because I give myself to fight for the community, that is what I had to do.

MS MTANGA: Can you give the name of the person who was with you at the time you robbed the vehicle from Mr Mkwanazi, what is the name of the person that you were with? The person you were with at the time you robbed the vehicle?

CHAIRPERSON: He said in his evidence here that he was alone, it was just him and the driver.

MS MTANGA: According to ...

CHAIRPERSON: I know, but he said in his evidence here, he said specifically that it was him and the driver, is that correct Mr Mahapo, I know it is on the record, but I am talking about his evidence.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have consulted with Mr Mkwanazi, the driver, he said there were two of them.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you are putting the question in such a way as saying who was the other person, I am just saying that in his evidence he said that he was alone with the driver.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just address that first.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahapo, according to Mr Mkwanazi, the driver that you took the car from, he says that you were with another person at the time, you boarded his taxi and when he left you in the car, who was the person, were you with a person there besides yourself?

MR MAHAPO: Even in court I told him that I was alone. Even in court I said I was alone, there was no third person involved.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were in court, did you hear Mr Mkwanazi giving evidence that you were not alone and that you had a companion with you, did you hear that in court?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, he said that in court, but I disputed that in court, that it is not true.

MS MTANGA: So must I assume that you are still disputing that there were two people in the car, you were with another person when you robbed the car?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, I still dispute that.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Fourie, do you have any re-examination?

MR FOURIE: Thank you Your Worship, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FOURIE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions that you would like to ask Mr Mahapo?

ADV GCABASHE : No Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just two quick questions, Chairperson. Did people at Hammanskraal know that you were from exile and that you were an MK?

INTERPRETER: Can you repeat the question again?

MR LAX: Did people at Hammanskraal in the vicinity of your grandmother's place, know that you were from exile and that you were an ex-MK?

MR MAHAPO: Not all of them knew.

MR LAX: Was it a secret or was it public knowledge in the area?

MR MAHAPO: I don't remember a particular day where I informed the community that I was a member of the ANC or a member of the MK, if there were those who knew, it is only a few of them. Only a few of them knew, but not all of them knew.

MR LAX: You see, you disappeared for a long time, you were away, out of the country for a long time. On your evidence you were out of the country from 1978 onwards.

CHAIRPERSON: 1983.

MR LAX: 1983 onwards, sorry. 1982, 1983, until 1992, ten years you were gone from the area, so people would have asked you where had you been for these 10 years and when an exile comes home, people know that that person has been in exile, it is common knowledge in most communities.

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is true. My place of birth is in Alexandra and in Hammanskraal it is my grandmother's place, that is where I used to visit. I only go there to visit. I don't remember that I identified myself to people within the community because at that time, there were members of the askaris and I didn't know where they were at that time, then I knew that at all times, wherever I am, I would be a target. I couldn't see the reason why I should expose myself that I was a member of MK and a member of the ANC. Others maybe thought that I was in Alexandra, even though many did not know that I was not around, but they didn't know that I was in exile. You would not just tell any person that you are a member of the ANC and you are now a member of the MK. You would not tell anybody, especially a place around Bophuthatswana. We know that in Bophuthatswana you won't just expose your identity at any time because we were not free to do whatever you want.

MR LAX: So, how often did you actually go to Hammanskraal from the time you came back into the country?

MR MAHAPO: I used to frequent that place because I loved my grandmother, I would not stay two weeks without going to Hammanskraal.

MR LAX: You must have become well known in the area if you used to go there so often?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, they knew me.

MR LAX: You had been there before you went into exile?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: So it is not as if you had been some stranger who wasn't known in the area?

MR MAHAPO: I am not the same Richard they knew before, I was now an MK member who was not wanted by the government which ruled at that time. I would not be proud that I am back from exile, because not all people in that area would accept me as an MK member. As I said that we had askaris whom we were informed about, people who deserted the ANC and became members of the government and they used to kill members of the ANC.

MR LAX: You see Mr Mahapo, the question of askaris doesn't come into it, you were not politically active, you have told us that already. The askaris would have looked for people who might have been politically active, but you were not politically active, so why would they be looking for you?

MR MAHAPO: Many members of the askaris were members of MK and members of MK were those I was with, outside. Even if you were not active in politics, many MK members were killed and they were not active, because they were with them in exile, because askaris were fighting members of the MK. They were assigned that job because they were trained by MK, so it was easy for askaris to target members of MK because they were with them in exile, that is the problem I had when I arrived in this country.

MR LAX: One last aspect I would like to ask you about, you will recall I asked you a question, did I understand you correctly that this firearm was found in your possession, in your pocket and you confirmed that for me?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: The Policeman who gave evidence at your trial and it is noted in the judgement says that he found the firearm under the driver's seat in the front of the vehicle. He didn't find it on your person, and if you would like the page reference, I can give that quite happily, it is page 18 of the record, line 21 onwards. I beg your pardon, it wasn't the driver's seat, it was the passenger, front passenger seat. It says here the left front seat. He is very clear about that, the Policeman, in his evidence. Is he making a mistake or are you making a mistake?

MR MAHAPO: I do not understand that how it comes that he, because there was a person who was sitting, I was driving and the firearm is mine. I don't see how I would put it on the passenger's seat and the firearm belonged to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you disputing that it was found under the seat, you say it was found in your pocket?

MR MAHAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: One last, final aspect, why did they vehicle have paper number plates on it with the wrong registration number?

MR MAHAPO: As I have said, I had hijacked the car, I couldn't leave the original plate numbers on, I used the artificial plate numbers so that I should not be disturbed on the road. If I didn't remove the original number plates, I could have been arrested before I even came to the particular place and I didn't want to be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: It is clear from the documents that we have before us Mr Mahapo that at the trial, Mr Mkwanazi said that two of you got into his vehicle, one sat next to him and one sat behind him and this made him very worried, because he knows that there is a lot of hijacking and this is how hijackers operate, they don't both sit at the back, one sits in the front and one sits at the back. He also drove you from Hillbrow to Alexandra which is at least 10 kilometres, can you think of any reason why Mr Mkwanazi should lie about whether one or two people got into the vehicle, or whether you believe that he could be mistaken about this in the circumstances?

MR MAHAPO: He made a mistake on that issue because it is not only the wrong thing which he said, he said he aborted the car whilst it was moving, that is another mistake he made in court. He couldn't leave the car whilst moving, how could I control the car?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAHAPO: That is another mistake he made in court.

CHAIRPERSON: He also said in court that you pulled out a firearm and pointed it at him in the taxi, on page 15 -

etc, etc. He said you pointed something at him, took out what he believed to be a firearm. Was that also a mistake he made or was he lying to the Court when he said that?

MR MAHAPO: He was not telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Fourie, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I haven't got any further questions, but I just want to refer the Committee back to page 15 of the judgment. He actually said he didn't see a firearm as far as I can see here, but he just heard when he cocked it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Falkson, do you have any questions arising?

MR FALKSON: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mahapo, that concludes your evidence.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, do you have any further witnesses you are calling?

MR FOURIE: We've got no further witnesses, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falkson?

MR FALKSON: Mr Chair, my client has indicated to me that he would like to give evidence as to his position in regard to these proceedings. I am not sure where he should ...

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if it might be better if perhaps you go and sit where Mr Fourie is sitting, Mr Fourie swop and then Mr Mahapo can sit in one of the seats in the front row and then Mr Makhubela sit next to you. Mr Mahapo, take your, if we could get an earset please for the witness, for Mr Mahapo. Okay, I think he's got thank you. Mr Makhubela, what are your full names, Mr Makhubela? Can you hear me? Mr Makhubela, what are your full names?

MR MAKHUBELA: Lesiba Wilson Makhubela.

MR FALKSON: Sorry Mr Chair, I think there may be a problem on the machine here, is it not coming through?

MR LAX: Is his machine on channel 4?

MR FALKSON: It is on channel 1.

MR LAX: If you could just change it to channel 4 please. Can you hear now?

MR MAKHUBELA: Yes, I do.

LESIBA WILSON MAKHUBELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Falkson.

EXAMINATION BY MR FALKSON: May it please the Chair. Mr Makhubela, where do you reside at this stage?

MR MAKHUBELA: I am staying in a new house and the house number is 2721 if I am not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that in Hammanskraal?

MR MAKHUBELA: It is in Matibe Stad around Hammanskraal.

MR FALKSON: Before you lived in this house, did you live in house number 2022, Matibe Stad?

MR MAKHUBELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FALKSON: How many children do you have?

MR MAKHUBELA: I have four children.

MR FALKSON: Do you have a wife who lives with you?

MR MAKHUBELA: Yes, I have a wife, I have two wives.

MR FALKSON: And how many members of your family are dependent on you?

MR MAKHUBELA: Six people who are under my care.

MR FALKSON: What do you do Mr Makhubela, what is your way of making a living?

MR MAKHUBELA: I am a taxi owner.

MR FALKSON: How long have you been a taxi owner?

MR MAKHUBELA: About 17 years being a taxi owner.

MR FALKSON: You have heard other evidence here today about the fact that you also owned a shebeen in Matibe Stad, is that correct?

MR MAKHUBELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FALKSON: Did you operate this shebeen from this house at 2022 Matibe Stad?

MR MAKHUBELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FALKSON: Can you give the Commission some idea as to how long that shebeen was operative?

MR MAKHUBELA: If I remember well, I operated the shebeen for seven years. I stopped operating the shebeen before the elections.

MR FALKSON: Why did you stop operating the shebeen?

MR MAKHUBELA: I was committed with my taxi's.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry when you say elections, do you mean the first democratic elections that took place on the 27th of April 1994 or which elections are you referring to?

MR MAKHUBELA: Yes, I mean the elections in 1994 sir, in April.

MR FALKSON: Before your shebeen was closed down, did you have any connection with the Bophuthatswana Police who came to your house at 2022 Matibe Stad?

MR MAKHUBELA: They did not frequent my shebeen, they used to come to raid because of the Liquor Act in Bophuthatswana. Any house which used to sell liquor illegally, they used to raid it.

MR FALKSON: You have heard the evidence of Mr Mahapo who says that he heard stories that people, Police from the Bophuthatswana Police used to come to your house frequently, what do you say about that?

MR MAKHUBELA: I have listened to his evidence, the evidence that he has given before this Commission. What he said is what he heard and not what he saw. The truth is that his evidence rely on what he heard and not what he saw.

CHAIRPERSON: He did say that when he was in Hammanskraal, which was frequently, he used to visit his grandmother who was about 200 metres away from your place and he, himself, also from time to time, saw things.

MR MAKHUBELA: It is not the truth when he says the distance between my house and his grandmother's house was 200 metres from there, because when he goes there to his grandmother's place, he doesn't even pass my house, because it is at the back. He doesn't pass at my house, that is not the truth.

MR FALKSON: He gave evidence that he had heard from other people that the Police used to come to your house frequently and he then believed in his mind, that you were a Police informer. Is there any truth in that?

MR MAKHUBELA: Everything that Mr Mahapo has said concerning the rumour that I was an informer, it is not the truth. Everything that he heard, and everything that he says, was from the rumour that he heard, it is not true that I was a Police informer. It has never been like that.

MR FALKSON: If he had managed to avoid the Police after he had hijacked the vehicle and had in fact got to your place and accomplished your mission to kill you, would he have been killing a completely innocent person?

MR MAKHUBELA: According to me, he would have killed an innocent person, unless he can say before this Committee what were his main reasons, why he wanted to kill me. It can never be because of politics, because I was never involved in politics.

MR FALKSON: If he had in fact managed to kill you, would he at that stage have left behind six people who had no source of income?

MR MAKHUBELA: That is correct. I would have left those people with no support, they couldn't be where they are today in terms of the standard of living. The people or the community he is referring to, depended on me, I don't understand when he refers to the community where I used to live, because he never stayed in that community. If he was referring to the community in Alexandra, then I would understand him, not in Hammanskraal because we were the people who knew what was happening there, even the meetings, what was said in the meetings because we attended those meetings in that area.

MR FALKSON: You say that the community of that area used to depend on you, in what way did they depend on you?

MR MAKHUBELA: They would come and hire my transport to attend those meetings that he was talking about, that is the ANC meetings and many other places, but I have never seen him in that area. He never received a report from the people in that community, I knew where the people were sending their reports concerning the ANC activities, they never reported to him.

MR FALKSON: Before today, can you recall having ever seen the applicant before in your area? Have you ever seen him before today?

MR MAKHUBELA: I have never seen this man before, I don't even know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Makhubela, if you had never seen him and you don't know him, how do you know where his grandmother lives?

MR MAKHUBELA: The way my family explained it to me and the people who have accompanied me, have explained to me and they have directed me, so I know that the distance that he has talked about, is not correct. Him in person, is not known to me.

MR FALKSON: You are aware of the fact that the applicant is asking for forgiveness for number one, for having hijacked the taxi that he used to get to you on that particular night, and also for what really amounts to an attempted murder where he committed that particular offence with the intention of committing a murder, where you were to have been the victim and he is asking for forgiveness. You have heard his reasons for that and you must please explain to the Committee how you feel about this man.

MR MAKHUBELA: I want to put the record straight before this Committee and say that the taxi that he hijacked, did not belong to me, that was not my taxi. Above all what he did, by taking that vehicle with the intention of coming to kill me, there is nothing that I can say about that. He had the intention to come and kill me, but I was innocent. It is true that I was not a Police informer because I was also arrested by the Bophuthatswana Police. They would arrest me for selling liquor without a licence, that is the Bophuthatswana Police. Today my family would have come here to listen to his evidence, if he had managed to killing me for something that he heard from the rumour, because everything that he has said, he heard it from the rumour. It is clear that Mr Mahapo didn't know anything, he just heard a rumour from somewhere, he took about 15 people in that community, that place is very big. He could have killed me for nothing. I can say to him I thank God for protecting me, because he could have killed me for nothing. In my shebeen I was serving more than 200 people, 200 to 300 in one night. I would start in the morning and close the following morning, I never stopped like he said. In that area, there were many shebeens, it was not the only shebeen in that community, there were about 10 shebeens in that area. The only thing was that we were in competition, so when you talk about that area, I can hear from his evidence that he doesn't know that place very well.

MR FALKSON: How do you feel about this man, are you prepared to forgive him for wanting to kill you?

MR MAKHUBELA: From his explanations and everything that he said about me, everything that he said, does not affect me because he has come here to ask for amnesty for intending to kill me, he never managed to kill me, so I don't understand why should I forgive him? I cannot really say that I forgive him, he must tell this Committee, he must tell this Committee the truth why he intended to kill me, who sent him to come and kill me. Maybe after hearing that, I will be able to forgive him. If he can come and say he was sent by somebody who paid him, who sent him to come and kill me, not politics, maybe I will be able to forgive him, but when he talks about politics, he could have done that in Alexandra because people were involved in politics in our area. I did not agree with his application because it does not affect me, thank you.

MR FALKSON: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Falkson. Mr Fourie, have you got any questions that you would like to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, yes. Sir, the rumour that Mr Mahapo talks about, was there such a rumour against you in this area?

MR MAKHUBELA: I have never heard that rumour.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mahapo, did you at any stage feel or realise or become - Mr Makhubela at least, sorry - did you at any stage feel or become aware of you being ostracised by other people in your community, being shunned by people, did you get any feeling like that?

MR MAKHUBELA: I have never felt that because the only thing that I know, we were working together with the community, because they also depended on me. Even when I closed my shebeen, they complained and they asked me why I closed my shebeen and then I explained to them that my commitment in my taxi operations, have forced me to close that shebeen.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. The other shebeens in the area, were there no problems with them, any fights with them?

CHAIRPERSON: Between him and other shebeen owners?

MR FOURIE: That is so, Mr Chairperson.

MR MAKHUBELA: I don't have knowledge about that, but I never heard that.

MR FOURIE: But there were so much competition in the area, surely there should have been some or other bad blood or whatever between the parties?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you fight with your colleagues Mr Fourie? I mean most of us have competition, it doesn't mean there has to be bad blood, it is not a formula?

MR FOURIE: I apologise Mr Chairperson, that is not the way I meant it. Were you ever involved in politics during this period, the period that you were there at Hammanskraal, or is there?

MR MAKHUBELA: I was never involved in politics.

MR FOURIE: Up to now?

MR MAKHUBELA: Even today. To be involved in politics, there must be something that I understand, so I don't understand you when you talk about my involvement in politics, can you please explain that to me.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he is not saying that you are involved. All Mr Fourie asked is whether you are involved and you have said you are not. He is not saying that you are.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mahapo said that he visited your shebeen frequently, he was there on a few occasions?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that he went there shortly after his return in 1992, before he heard this rumour about being an informer, then he stopped going there, but he did say that he was in fact a customer at one stage towards 1992 at your shebeen.

MR MAKHUBELA: I have never seen him, but at the same time I cannot disagree with him, because there were so many people coming to my place. I cannot dispute that, that he once came to my shebeen.

MR FOURIE: How do you know who his grandmother was or is, if you don't know him at all?

MR MAKHUBELA: I know his grandmother because I have seen the surname on the papers, it was also said by the lady who was sitting next to me, she told me that he is the grandson of the woman we stay with in our township.

MR FOURIE: When did she tell you that?

MR MAKHUBELA: I don't understand the question.

MR FOURIE: When did she tell you that his grandmother or that that woman is his grandmother?

MR MAKHUBELA: This lady did not say to me that she was his grandmother, what she said to me was that the lady that we live with in our township, is the one who has been referred to here by the applicant.

MR FOURIE: At what time do you normally close on Sundays, the shebeen of yours?

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't operating at the time, is this very relevant of whether he closed early, because at the 30th of April or the end of April 1994, is it correct that your shebeen was no longer in operation?

MR MAKHUBELA: When we went to the elections, my shebeen had already been closed.

CHAIRPERSON: And when your shebeen was operating, what time did you used to close on Sundays, if at all?

MR MAKHUBELA: On Sunday I used to close around three to four o'clock the following morning because many people will come that day to have drinks.

MR FOURIE: Did it happen on a few occasions that you closed earlier on Sundays because you see Mr Mahapo only left Alexandra at about eleven o'clock that night, the Saturday night, Sunday night, rather.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Fourie, this is totally academic, the person's shebeen was closed at that time, it no longer was in operation. He said he closed his shebeen before the elections. Your instructions and your client's evidence is that he closed the shebeen at the end of December 1993, so I don't understand what is the relevance of all this questioning.

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, why I ask this is because my client, maybe it is irrelevant, I must admit.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it doesn't, I mean it wasn't open.

MR FOURIE: Can you think of any reason as to why Mr Mahapo would have tried to kill you, would have killed you, except for what he had explained here today?

MR MAKHUBELA: There is nothing that I can think of, any reason that I can think of why he wanted to kill me. The only thing that I think of is that maybe he wanted to kill me, but not for politics, because at that time when he wanted to kill me, we were all in a democratic country, we were no longer involved in a political struggle. We were one nation in a democratic South Africa then. If he intended to kill me, I think he should explain the reason why he wanted to kill me, but it must be another reason, not political reasons. That is why I said if he can give us that reason, I will be able to forgive him, but as long as he says he wanted to kill me because of politics, it becomes difficult for me.

MR FOURIE: But you have heard him, the only reason that he can say is because of politics as he hardly knew you, he has personally said that he never spoke to you, he just visited your shebeen which was closed already at that stage, prior to this.

CHAIRPERSON: He is denying that he was an informer, that is the dispute between the two. It is also a question for argument as well.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falkson, do you have any re-examination?

MR FALKSON: No re-examination Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE : No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makhubela, thank you, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR MAKHUBELA: I thank you.

MR FALKSON: I have no further evidence of any sort Mr Chair, should we just remain seated the way we are?

CHAIRPERSON: You may as well. Ms Mtanga, do you have any witnesses to call?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, there are no witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: That then concludes the testimony or the leading of evidence in this matter. Mr Fourie, do you have any submissions to make?

MR FOURIE IN ARGUMENT: I can just say, Mr Chairperson, thank you, that Mr Mahapo came here today to tell the truth. He wasn't forced to come here at all, he did it out of his own and he came to apologise to the people, Mr Makhubela and his family and I suppose also to the community of Hammanskraal.

He explained to the Committee today that his main goal was actually for political reasons as well as, and that his political background also played a big role in what he planned to do during this whole thing. He testified that he bona fide believed that Mr Makhubela was an informer for the Police and that is why he regarded him as his enemy and that was actually the reason as to why he robbed this vehicle to go and kill Mr Makhubela. He showed remorse to the effect that he came and he apologises as to what he did, he realised whilst he was in prison and when he got the necessary treatment and stuff of the people there, that what he did was wrong. He also said that he will, if the Committee will grant him amnesty, he will try to explain to the people in the community as to why and what he did wrong and to try to let the people live together, of different cultures, to live in harmony further on.

Therefore Your Worship, I request the Committee to grant him the opportunity to begin with a new life and to contribute to society as I say by telling the society or the community in which he is living in, that all different cultures must live together in harmony. That is as far as I can take it, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falkson, do you have any submissions?

MR FALKSON IN ARGUMENT: May it please the Chair and your Committee, Mr Chairman. Obviously from the perspective of Mr Makhubela, he and many members of his family are here today, have been fairly shocked by what has happened to them over the past couple of weeks, since they have been aware of this particular application, obviously they had absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of these allegations. You heard from Mr Makhubela that he had no political aspirations, no political involvement in his activities in this particular area over the years and he finds it extremely difficult to believe that there could be a political motive whereby a person could be moved to the extent of wanting to actually kill him, with his complete lack of involvement in politics. One then has to investigate or have a look carefully at this so-called motive for the admitted crime that was committed of hijacking at the time. We have a situation here where not one word of any of these motives were produced at the time of the hearing before the Court and only some years later is a story brought along which I find, what I find most disturbing about it, is not supported in any way by any form of any other evidence, other than simply the word of the applicant today.

We don't have any political evidence or support from any political organisation as to his political activities at the time. We are aware and it has been admitted that of two persons who actually accompanied him on this so-called mission. When I say it has been admitted, it has been alleged by the applicant that he had two people with him. He obviously had to admit that, because it came out in the trial that he had two persons with him when the vehicle was stopped and that wasn't placed in any form of dispute at the trial. He explains to you today that the two people concerned was a friend and a cousin, who he says had no knowledge of what he intended to do, had no knowledge of what he had done as far as the vehicle was concerned, the hijacking, he is going off without involving them in any way in this so-called mission to kill somebody. He has no intention of them becoming involved, so he is going to go and do this on his own and yet he takes two people along with him. It is just the most incredible sort of story to believe.

There is no explanation as to how he was going to get these people back, he was going to dump the car, not involve them at all in the commission of this crime and yet dump the car and find some other form of transportation, no explanation as to how he was going to get these other two people home or explain to them what had happened to the car, or what he had been doing, how he was going to meet them, there is no detail given to you that makes this story believable and it is my submission that on probabilities, if one were to look at this particular motive given for the crime that he committed and the real crime that we are looking at, is the crime of the hijacking, that is what he was charged with and convicted of, is some way which he can now avoid the sentence. One would imagine Mr Chair that had he indeed embarked on a mission of a political nature as he says, there would be some form of supporting evidence of that, that would be available.

There isn't a person called from the community to support his version. You know, he keeps coming with the generalisations "I heard from many people, but I cannot mention one of them. I used to go there, there wasn't two weeks that went by when I didn't go there", so obviously he was well known and knew the people of the area well, but yet he is unable to bring anybody to support his story. I believe that it is an easy story to come with when you just tell the story on your own, you have nobody, even the people that went with you, to support you in any way. You heard from Mr Makhubela who says "it is very difficult for me to forgive the man for something that he says he wanted to do, when I simply can't believe his story that he wanted to do it to me when I wasn't politically involved. If the man had really told the truth and there was some other motive behind his hijacking and it happened to involve me, then I would be able to consider it, but on the story that I have heard, I just don't believe that it can be true, because I was an accepted member of the community at the time."

Mr Chairperson, I have nothing further to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Falkson. Ms Mtanga, do you have any submissions?

MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT: Yes Mr Chairperson, I just have a brief submission. It is my submission that Mr Mahapo was an ANC member and a trained MK cadre, it is my understanding that he must have received a very comprehensive political education to understand that once South Africa had voted on the 27th of April 1994, South African had attained the liberation that the ANC was fighting for. It is therefore my submission that he could not have believed that he was furthering the armed struggle of the ANC and he had no political objective to carry on this operation. That is all Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Fourie, do you have any reply?

MR FOURIE: I've got nothing further to say, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that then concludes this hearing. We will reserve our decision and hope to have it published as soon as possible. That is all for today, is that correct Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Have arrangements been made for tomorrow, we've got two more matters left on the roll. We would like to start earlier than we started today.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, the matter that was scheduled for Thursday, will be heard tomorrow and then I will also phone Mr Brian Koopedi to find out what arrangement has he made with Mr Seloane as to what time he can give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: What time will we be in a position to start tomorrow morning with the other matter?

MR LAX: Thursday's matter?

MS MTANGA: Thursday's matter we can start with it, because Mr Fourie would be appearing for the applicants and we have informed the prisons to bring the applicants early tomorrow, for nine o'clock. They will be here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I want you to define early.

MS MTANGA: They will be here before half past eight, that is my instructions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, if I can just say something, I have only received instructions to represent the other two persons, last week. I only had one opportunity to see them in prison and that was for approximately one and a half hour, that is the only time they granted me at that stage. I have phoned my office today, a little bit earlier on to arrange an appointment with the prison, I see it is now already quarter past three, they won't allow me now to get in there, because they already, I think they must go to do something else at four o'clock, nobody will allow me there to go and see them, I didn't draft any statements or whatever as yet, so I am in a very difficult position now. At least the Committee must give me some time tomorrow to speak to these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we would give you time, but we would like to start as soon as early, we have also noticed it is a fairly straight forward matter, it is not a complicated matter by any means, the documentation before us doesn't suggest that.

MR FOURIE: That is indeed so. As I say Mr Chairperson, I won't be able to draw any statements on my part.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, we don't expect statements to be handed in, if they are, that is fine, but we don't insist on statements, we do have the documentation in front of us, we have got more or less an idea of the nature of the incident and it is just basically a question of leading the evidence really. We don't expect anything further from you in the form of extra documentation for the sake of that, if you are not in a position to draft statements, that I can assure you is okay with us. As long as you are in a position just to lead them with their evidence and get them to say to us what happened.

MR FOURIE: I suppose that won't be a problem, I can sort that out.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we then start at half past nine tomorrow morning?

MR FOURIE: I will be available then, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am told that Ms Mtanga, well, you have heard that she has requested that they be brought here by half past eight tomorrow morning, so that will give you an hour beforehand.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I appreciate that.

CHAIRPERSON: And then I would just like to ask, are they coming from the same prison that you have brought this applicant from, do you know?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, they will be coming from Pretoria Central.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. I think if we can make just one final time again that they be here at half past eight, let's make sure about that, and also that they know where the venue is. Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Okay Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we will then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning when we will be proceeding with the applications of Messrs Mulaudzi and Ndlovu. Thank you. I would like to thank the legal representatives for their assistance in this matter, thank you.