--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning everybody. When we adjourned yesterday Mr Visser was about to call his next applicant.

MR VISSER: Morning, Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee. Yes Chairperson, I call Maj Salmon Johannes Gerhardus du Preez, who is ready to give his evidence. He prefers to give it in Afrikaans and he has no objection to taking the prescribed oath.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, before you has been placed a summary of his evidence which we submit should be marked Exhibit C. This was done yesterday and I will draw your attention to some mistakes that have been made in it, but we'll deal with it when we come to it. If I may then lead the witness, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr du Preez, you have previously testified ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, it's just been drawn to my attention, we were given a map yesterday. I think at this stage, seeing we've marked this one C, we'll mark the map Exhibit D. Have you all got a copy of that map? Thank you. Sorry, Mr Visser, you may proceed.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, yes, that is Exhibit D. Mr Chairman, we will attempt to obtain a map with greater detail about the particular area which is relevant here, which is Phoenix/Bambayi/kwaMashu and if we do obtain such a map, we'll let you have that immediately.

Mr du Preez, you have testified previously before other Amnesty Committees as it is mentioned in Exhibit C?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you have also completed an application for amnesty which is bound into the Khubeka bundle, that would be bundle 1?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Pages 30 to 41, where the incident is dealt with by you from page 31 to 34?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm your previous evidence as well as the incorporation of your evidence, into your evidence of Exhibit A, which is now serving before the Committee and you request that this be taken into consideration when your application is considered?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Will you please turn to page 2 of Exhibit C and explain your participation in this incident to the Committee and your knowledge of the surrounding circumstances?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, during 1987 I took part in the arrest of one Nthombi Khubeka. I was then a Lieutenant and served under the direct command of Colonel, then Captain, Botha.

I confirm that information was known that she was involved, in that she acted in a co-ordinating capacity between externally trained terrorists and locally trained terrorists.

MR VISSER: Just for the sake of interest Mr du Preez, I understand that if a person, during the struggle, had been trained internally, that person was not referred to as a terrorist by you, he had to be trained externally, is that correct?

MR DU PREEZ: No, that is not correct.

MR VISSER: What is the difference between a terrorist trained outside the country and one trained inside the country?

MR DU PREEZ: The local persons were trained to commit acts of terror similarly as persons who were trained outside.

MR VISSER: Is there a difference between persons who were trained outside the country with regard to the combat of the struggle of the past as you have seen it and the persons trained inside the country?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MR DU PREEZ: She was responsible for the storage of weapons, the provision of accommodation to terrorists and the gathering of intelligence with regard to targets of terror. Her family were well-known activists in kwaMashu. It was decided to infiltrate her and her structure of co-workers and collaborators by members of C1 who had rendered service at that time in Durban and surroundings. Members of C1 succeeded in establishing contact with Khubeka.

MR VISSER: You have heard that Mr Botha had testified that this was done by means of an informant?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Did you know about that, or did you not know about that?

MR DU PREEZ: I was aware of that. I did not know the finer details though.

MR VISSER: Very Well.

MR DU PREEZ: Over the course of many days, members of Vlakplaas reported that Khubeka had confirmed that she acted in a co-ordinating capacity and had played a leading role with regard to accommodation of externally trained terrorists in kwaMashu and had shown arms to them which she had stored on the terrorists' behalf.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask you, Mr du Preez, to clear up something here? You say that she admitted that she acted in a co-ordinating capacity. To whom did she admit?

MR DU PREEZ: It was to the sources.

ADV BOSMAN: But she admitted to them without knowing that they were members of C1?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: So actually they said that they had information because admit indicates and accusation and then she had admitted it, it was not that she admitted it.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct. They pretended to be trained terrorists. The idea was to try and apprehend the terrorists by making use of Khubeka. An appointment was made on a day that the leader of the group...(intervention).

MR WILLS: Sorry, can I just ask again for it to be a little bit slower? Thank you. If you can start that paragraph ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, maybe if you could just go a little bit slower please so that the interpreter can get it and so that we can keep up with the notes, particularly Mr Wills who has to take it all down.

MR DU PREEZ: The idea was to try to apprehend these terrorists by making use of Khubeka. An appointment was made on a day that the leader of the group of terrorists, who was hidden by Khubeka, to be arrested. The person had to be lured to a place which had been agreed on beforehand, namely the Durban beach front at Battery Beach.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr du Preez. Battery Beach, is that the beach that is in front of the old Military Command headquarters?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct Chairperson. That was the part between there and it was also known as Sunkist.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it near where the snake park used to be there?

MR DU PREEZ: No, it's further up.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DU PREEZ: Col Botha, van der Westhuizen, Basson and I had by late that afternoon, held surveillance at this place. Mbane would give a sign if the terrorist or terrorists were with him in the motor vehicle. The windows of his vehicle were tinted so that we could not see inside.

MR VISSER: Can you recall what type of vehicle it was?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a Toyota.

MR VISSER: Very well.

MR DU PREEZ: A Corolla. Now that Mbane arrived there and had parked there, he gave the sign after a short while. We struck, only to find that Khubeka was alone with Mbane in the vehicle. We then arrested her and she was immediately removed from the vehicle and taken to our vehicle.

MR VISSER: Mr du Preez, the vehicle which you referred to as "our vehicle", what type of vehicle was this?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a Toyota panel van, a kombi.

MR VISSER: A panel van, does it have windows on the sides and at the back?

MR DU PREEZ: It only has one set of windows where the sliding door is.

MR VISSER: What was your part in this so-called arrest? What did you do exactly?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I can recall when Nthombi came out of the vehicle...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Please refer to her as Khubeka.

MR DU PREEZ: When Khubeka was removed from the vehicle, I grabbed her from behind and lifted her. I lifted her up and moved to the vehicle, so she was half dragged and half carried to the kombi.

MR VISSER: How far from the Toyota was the kombi?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't think it was more than 10 metres.

MR VISSER: Can you give a description of the build of Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: She was a large woman and overweight.

MR VISSER: Will you continue please?

MR DU PREEZ: I was given instruction by Col Botha to take her to the old S A S Police shooting range at Winkelspruit for interrogation. At that stage we had used the shooting range as an operation bases. There were ablution facilities and storage rooms. We had indeed slept there some evenings and some of the askaris also stayed there during their visit on this occasion.

It was already dusk when we arrived at the shooting range. After I had handed over Khubeka to Col Taylor or Col Botha, I departed, for I had other obligations.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr du Preez, what do you mean "after you handed her over to Col Taylor, or Col Botha"? Did you hand her over to both of them, or one of them, or can't you remember to whom you handed her over?

MR DU PREEZ: I think both of them were there and I handed her over to both of them, or both of them received her.

MR LAX: But Botha was with you in the vehicle, how could you have handed her over to him if he was with you and in control of the operation?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall where Botha was, whether he was in front in the kombi. I was in the back of the kombi and I held Khubeka under control and what I mean by that is, when we arrived at the camp, I handed her over to them.

MR LAX: Yes, but the way you've written this and the way you've just testified is that when you got there you handed her over to them, one or the other, in other words that they weren't with you. His evidence is that he was with you in the vehicle. Do you see the difference?

MR DU PREEZ: What I mean here, Chairperson is that she was no longer under my control. I did not exercise control over her any longer.

MR LAX: You see his evidence was that more than just you had to subdue her and put her in the vehicle. You weren't acting on your own.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: There were five of you at least, according to what he told us.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And - so I'm just a little puzzled why you've used this expression that you "handed her over", as if you had formal control over her and then you passed her on to the next level of control. You'll concede, that's the impression you create here.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But he had control over all of you because he was the officer in control at the scene and in the vehicle, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: That's possibly so.

MR LAX: It is definitely so. He was your Commanding officer at that point.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr du Preez, can you recall today that in your memory, Mr Botha was with you in the same vehicle when you travelled to Winkelspruit?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who was second in Command after Capt Botha at that stage?

MR DU PREEZ: I was in command after Botha.

MR VISSER: Very well, will you please proceed? You say that you handed her over to Taylor or Botha or both and then you wanted to say?

MR DU PREEZ: I then departed, for I had other obligations. With my return later I was informed that Khubeka had died, possibly of a heart attack.

MR VISSER: Can you recall who told this to you?

MR DU PREEZ: Botha told me this.

MR VISSER: Very well. It may then be so that with the drawing up of the statement I had erred, but will you please continue with paragraph 13?

MR DU PREEZ: Col Taylor requested Sgt Wasserman and myself to dispose of the body in the vicinity of kwaMashu where it could be found.

MR VISSER: I would like to ask you, was Col Taylor alone when he spoke to you and Wasserman?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, at the time of this conversation, Col Taylor, Botha, myself and Wasserman were present when Taylor informed us that we had to dispose of the body.

MR VISSER: Because Mr Botha testified that his recollection is that he requested you to dispose of the body. It is possible, Chairperson, because there was a discussion. As far as I can recall the final instruction came from Col Taylor.

MR VISSER: Very well. If I may refer you to paragraph 17, we will return to paragraph 14 and then what is written here is not strictly speaking correct. You say:

What would be the correct situation?

MR DU PREEZ: That would be Taylor and Botha, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Will you then proceed at paragraph 14, or rather, "in the vicinity of kwaMashu, to dispose of the body in the vicinity of kwaMashu".

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha's recollection is that he requested to you dispose of the body close to her home. Can you recall that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Visser, may I just interpose here? Mr du Preez, did I hear correctly that you said there was a discussion, or did I not hear correctly? It may be possible that I did not hear correctly.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. I said that there was a discussion after Botha had informed me that the person, Khubeka, had died. I, Col Taylor, Wasserman and Botha held a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: So you confirm that you used the word "discussion"? So I would want to hear briefly what was the content of this discussion, so we can get clarity about this.

MR DU PREEZ: The discussion was that Taylor and Botha informed us that the body had to be disposed of close to her home.

ADV BOSMAN: But that is not a discussion, Mr du Preez, that is an instruction. I would like to arrive at the discussion. Did you just receive an instruction, or was there a discussion?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was just said that we had to take the corpse and drop it off close to a place close to her home.

ADV BOSMAN: So that was actually an instruction?

MR DU PREEZ: To what I referred to as a description.

ADV BOSMAN: I do not want to split hairs, but a discussion has a far wider implication.

MR LAX: The way I recorded it and I was listening to your Afrikaans and just translating it myself, but you said that you discussed the matter. I assumed that was the matter of her death. Is that right?

MR DU PREEZ: Botha told me that she died of a heart attack.

MR LAX: And you said that immediately after that you and Wasserman, Taylor and Botha had a discussion. Was that discussion about what to do about it?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. That is where Botha and Taylor told us what to do with the body.

MR LAX: ... (indistinct) that discussion as I understood from your evidence. That was the impression you gave me, that you and Wasserman, Taylor and Botha all discussed what the next step would be and finally you got an instruction to dump the body. Have I understood you correctly?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was not my decision,

MR LAX: I'm not saying it was your decision, I'm saying, were you part of the discussion about what to do with the body and then finally you got an order after the discussion was concluded. Have I understood you correctly?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, Wasserman and I were present when Taylor and Botha decided what to do.

MR LAX: Did you contribute to that discussion?

MR DU PREEZ: No.

MR LAX: So you were just present, they spoke about it in your presence and then they informed you of their decision?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. And when you received the order, what did you do?

MR DU PREEZ: Sgt Wasserman and I executed the order and dropped her off in the grass next to the Inanda road, near Bambayi.

MR VISSER: Now before we get to that, where was she, the body of Khubeka, when you had to transport her?

MR DU PREEZ: She was in a storage room, she lay in a storeroom and Wasserman and I waited until all the members were asleep or were away, I cannot recall. The camp was quiet and then we drove the vehicle until it was adjacent to the storeroom, we picked up Khubeka and placed her in the boot of the car.

MR VISSER: Was her body wrapped in anything?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was she clothed?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you recall the appearance of the clothing?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR VISSER: Can you recall the colours of the clothing, even though you cannot recall the items of clothing themselves?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, I cannot recall.

MR VISSER: In what vehicle did you transport her?

MR DU PREEZ: A Nissan Skyline.

MR VISSER: And whose vehicle was this?

MR DU PREEZ: It was mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Your private vehicle, or was it a police vehicle?

MR DU PREEZ: It was my police vehicle.

MR VISSER: The place where you and Wasserman dropped her off, you say this was in the grass next to the Inanda road. Could you just give a finer description to the Committee of how far away from the road this was and also if you could perhaps provide some form of a landmark or something in order to indicate to us where precisely you dropped the body off?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was next to the road, opposite the Ghandi settlement, there's a place there known as the Ghandi settlement and Bambayi would be on the opposite side against the hill slope. And it was in that area between Ghandi settlement and Bambayi.

MR VISSER: Did you think that the body would be discovered there?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, Chairperson, we left her approximately 15 metres from the road and I was certain that somebody would find the body there.

MR VISSER: Were there any signs that people were moving through that area where she had been dropped?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, Chairperson, during the day there were many pedestrians there, it is a taxi route.

MR VISSER: And was it your own experience that there were people moving about there during the day?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And if a body were to be found there, where would the nearest police station be where one could report this from that point?

MR DU PREEZ: kwaMashu would have been the closest.

MR VISSER: Were there also any other police stations in that vicinity?

MR DU PREEZ: The nearest police stations, that would be Phoenix and Inanda police stations.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, Mr Visser. Are you saying the nearest police station is kwaMashu, then the next nearest is Phoenix?

MR DU PREEZ: Phoenix and Inanda, yes.

MR VISSER: Were there any state mortuaries in the vicinity where bodies which were found would be taken to?

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I knew there was a state mortuary in kwaMashu.

MR VISSER: Did you know where Mrs Khubeka resided?

MR DU PREEZ: I did. She stayed in G Section.

MR VISSER: Now G Section, if one consults Exhibit D and follows the line from the M2 in a north-easterly direction, then there is a railway line, it would appear due to S A R which is stated next to it, that runs from kwaMashu north in the direction of Inanda. Is that correct? Do you see it?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, I see it.

MR VISSER: Now if you were to take the railway line as a point of reference, was G Section on the left side, that would be the western side, or the right side being the eastern side of that railway line?

MR DU PREEZ: That would be on the left side, the western side.

MR VISSER: Very well. That area there, is it rural or are there many people living there? What is the position in that area where you left the body?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a big open grass field at that stage.

MR VISSER: No, I'm referring to that area. Were there any homes nearby or not?

MR DU PREEZ: No, there were no houses near that place at that stage.

MR VISSER: Very well. Would you continue with paragraph 16, beg your pardon, 15?

MR DU PREEZ: I did not report the incident and consequently I made myself guilty of defeating the ends of justice.

MR VISSER: Yes and other offences with regard to bodies, isn't that so?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Continue.

MR DU PREEZ: From documents now before the Committee, it is alleged that Khubeka's body was exhumed and that it was found that she had a bullet wound in the back of her head.

MR VISSER: Yes, we know that the bullet wound is actually on the top of her head, but continue.

MR DU PREEZ: I know that she did not have any bullet wounds. According to me and Wasserman, her body was dropped off next to the Inanda highway, near Bambayi.

MR VISSER: Yes, and there is a reference, for the information of the Committee, to the TRC report. Please continue, paragraph 17.

MR DU PREEZ: My motivation to carry out the orders of Col Botha by abducting Khubeka and afterwards dropping off her body, was an action in support of the liberation attempt against the revolutionary onslaught and especially to spare the government and the SAP political embarrassment during a period of time when there was much criticism, both internally and internationally, against the government.

The ANC used all events which indicated at offences of the Security Forces and made propaganda out of it in order to place the government in the worst possible light. My actions were aimed at the protection and maintenance of the former government and constitutional dispensation.

The acts and omissions which I committed, I committed in the execution of my official duties under the order of a higher officer, whose orders I was obliged to execute. I did this as part of the opposition to the struggle and my actions were aimed against supporters of the liberation movement.

MR VISSER: And the next sentence is a repetition. Please continue with paragraph 22.

MR DU PREEZ: As such I believed bona fide that what I did fell within my express or implied authorisation. I humbly request that amnesty be granted to me for my acts and omissions in this regard.

MR VISSER: And as previously stated or indicated by the Chairperson of this Committee, during argument you will be led regarding - it will be discussed exactly what you have applied for and you request amnesty for that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I again neglected to ask something.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR VISSER: Mr Visagie - can you recall whether, during the events of the particular evening upon which Mrs Khubeka died, whether you saw him there at the scene?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR VISSER: Therefore you wouldn't really be able to say what his share was, if any, in this event?

MR DU PREEZ: No.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Nel, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the witness?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, only one.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Mr du Preez can you recall in any way whether Mr Spyker Myeza was involved in this incident in any way on that evening or that day?

MR DU PREEZ: No, I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR VAN DER MERWE: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Botha, do you have any questions you'd like to ask. Just for record purposes, Ms Botha is standing in for Mr Hugo who is involved in another matter held in these same premises.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BOTHA: Mr du Preez, during the meeting and delivery at Battery Beach, did you in any way see Mr Simon Radebe there in the vicinity?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall. I cannot recall whether I would have been able to identify any of the persons as being present there.

MS BOTHA: Because Mr Radebe will say later that he drove the vehicle and because he was seated behind the steering wheel, he activated the indicator light, but you cannot recall seeing him there?

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible.

MS BOTHA: And when you arrived at Winkelspruit, you were sent to buy food, how long were you away?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall the length of time which I was away, all that I can recall about the incident is that when I returned Botha, informed me about the death of Khubeka.

MS BOTHA: And when you returned after buying food, did you see Mr Simon Radebe anywhere there in the area?

MR DU PREEZ: No.

MS BOTHA: Thank you.

MR LAX: Can I just follow up? Did you go and buy food, or did you go and get on with other duties, because your evidence so far is that you went and did other duties?

MR DU PREEZ: I think that among others I went to buy food.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, where would you have gone in relation to the place, the shooting range at Winkelspruit, to buy that food? Would it have been very close by or would you have had to drive some distance, or did you walk there?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall precisely what I went to do. My recollection of the incident is that when I returned, Botha told me about the incident.

MR LAX: How long were you away for?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall. I cannot say with certainty.

MR LAX: Was it several hours, or was it 10 minutes?

MR DU PREEZ: I really cannot recall.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Sorry, Mr Chairman, maybe in the light of these questions, there's just maybe one question which I neglected to put to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van der Merwe you may ask questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr du Preez, in terms of these questions, my instructions from Mr Baker are that on that specific evening he also drove with you when you went to buy food, do you recall anything like that?

MR DU PREEZ: I do not recall who accompanied me. It is possible that he drove with me.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And that at the stage, when you returned, he was with you when you were informed that Mrs Khubeka had passed away.

MR DU PREEZ: That is possible, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Samuel, do you have any questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Maj du Preez, on the morning in question, do you recall what were the instructions given to Mr Jimmy Mbane, or Mr Radebe for that matter?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I did not speak to them.

MR SAMUEL: Were you present at the meeting when the instructions were given to either Mr Radebe or Mr Jimmy Mbane as to what they should do in regard to Ms Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I wasn't.

MR SAMUEL: Do you know any reason as to why Ms Khubeka was brought to Mr Botha and yourself on that day?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, when we departed for the beach front, I understood that the C1 members would bring the terrorists to this rendezvous point.

MR LAX: If I may interpose, Mr Samuel? You've just referred to terrorists in the plural that were going to be brought to this point, have I understood you correctly?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that is what I understood, that we would meet a terrorist or terrorists there, that they would bring a terrorist or terrorists to the rendezvous point.

MR LAX: What were you going to do at the meeting place with the terrorists?

MR DU PREEZ: We would arrest them.

MR LAX: So one or more would be irrelevant, you were going to arrest whoever came to that place?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel, you may proceed.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Jimmy Mbane will confirm that he was given instructions to pick up Ms Khubeka from the Durban station and bring her to Battery Beach, but going on from there, do you recall who was in the vehicle that brought Ms Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I cannot recall who the persons were.

MR SAMUEL: So if Mr Radebe and Mr Dube were present in that vehicle, you would not be able to recall that. Am I right?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane's version will be that when they came to Battery Beach with Ms Khubeka, Mr Radebe and Mr Dube were present in the vehicle.

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible.

MR SAMUEL: Do you recall whether you met Mr Jimmy Mbane after he had handed over Ms Khubeka to yourselves?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean on the same day?

MR SAMUEL: The same day, yes.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Now, do you recall whether Ms Khubeka was handcuffed or tied up when she was put into the vehicle in which you were in?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall whether she was cuffed during the journey to Winkelspruit but in the kombi we pressed her down. It was a panel van which was open at the back. There weren't any seats in the vehicle and she was blindfolded.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez, is it not so that it would have been common practice to cuff somebody in those circumstances? I mean when you detain a person, or abduct a person, or apprehend a person, wouldn't it just be second nature for you or any other policeman to cuff the detainee?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson, but I cannot recall specifically whether this was done or not. We would have kept her under force. As far as I can recall, after she had been placed in the vehicle, she did not struggle to break loose or anything like that.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Maj du Preez, Major Mr Jimmy Mbane will tell this Commission that when he arrived back at Winkelspruit with Mr Dube and Mr Radebe, he had noticed that Ms Khubeka was tied both hand and foot and she was also blindfolded. Can you admit or deny that?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I recall that she was blindfolded. I cannot recall that her hands and her feet were bound. If her feet were bound, she would certainly not have been able to walk and we would have had to carry her and we didn't do that.

CHAIRPERSON: How was she blindfolded? Can you recall?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a piece of cloth, or a piece of sheet. Possibly a piece of sheet or a pillow case.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you also want to have her hands cuffed, most likely behind her back, in order to prevent her from tampering with the blindfold, pulling it off?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we were with her all the time and she wouldn't have been able to do anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez, anybody, whether you were right there, you weren't holding her by her arms the whole time. You said she was just on the floor of the vehicle. If her hands weren't tied, she could easily have pulled the blindfold off. I mean, that's just so patently obvious.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in such a case, when a person is held under force, you would tell them to be seated, you would tell them what to do, so that such a person wouldn't have a choice, they are kept under force and they are being told what to do and what is expected of them.

MR LAX: And you people did that, and you remember doing that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May she have been cuffed?

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible, Chairperson, but I cannot recall.

MR SAMUEL: Are you suggesting to this Commission that throughout this ordeal and after you all had put her into your vehicle, she had given you no resistance? Is that what you are suggesting to ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: That's not what the evidence is, Mr Chairman. He says there was resistance at the time of the arrest and thereafter, once she was put in the car, there wasn't resistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said that when she was in the vehicle, she didn't struggle. I can't recall precisely what was said about taken to the car other than she was half dragged and half carried. I don't know if, perhaps you can ask a question on that, Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Major, when Ms Khubeka, who was, in line with your evidence, she was a big built woman, overweight as you put it, did she give any resistance at that stage when you all dragged her out of the motor vehicle in which Mr Mbane was?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot say exactly, she had no choice, we seized her and half picked her up and carried her. She did not kick or scream. We overpowered her completely.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do that Major? Why not just go up to her and flash your card and say "Look, come with us, we're the police" and let her walk to the vehicle? Why have a whole group of you go in there and grab her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we were prepared to seize whoever would be in the car and to take them to our vehicle. That was our plan and that is how we executed it.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask you, did you know immediately that this was Ms Khubeka, because you actually expected to find terrorists who had been trained abroad, as I understand it. Did you realise that this woman was Ms Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was only once we had her in the vehicle that I realised it was her. We expected terrorists, but we also planned to seize everyone who was in the car and to arrest them.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: Did you look into that motor vehicle to see whether there were any other persons in that motor vehicle?

MR DU PREEZ: I did, Chairperson, and Ms Khubeka was the only person who I recognised as someone who was not a C1 member, that is why she was the only person who was seized.

MR SAMUEL: How many of you all went to this motor vehicle to carry Ms Khubeka out? Do you recall?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson it was me, Sgt van der Westhuizen, W/O Basson, Col Botha and I think that there were also members of C1 involved, but I cannot recall who from C1 was there of the white members of C1.

MR SAMUEL: Prior to this day in question when Ms Khubeka was handed to you, did Mr Mbane hand over any other people, other terrorists to you or to your group?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that he handed two persons to you, among them was one Sbu and you were present when he handed over Sbu to you all, who was also an ANC activist and later Sbu was killed by your group.

MR DU PREEZ: That he handed him over to me or in my presence?

MR SAMUEL: In your presence, Sir.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything about the man called Sbu?

MR DU PREEZ: It's a very general name, but I don't know of the Sbu that the speaker is referring to.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you. Now, if Mr Mbane informed his handlers, Mr Botha and Mr Taylor about Ms Khubeka's suspicions regarding two people that were supposed to be given safe-houses by Mr Mbane, would you know about that?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson. Botha informed us about what was important regarding the operation and I cannot recall anything like that specifically.

MR SAMUEL: If any payment were made to Mr Mbane by Mr Taylor, would you know about it?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you. Major, I'm going to put Mr Mbane's version to you. You can either admit or deny the contents of it. Mr Mbane will tell this Commission that on the day in question he was requested by Mr Radebe to pick up Ms Khubeka from the Durban station and bring her to Mr Botha together with yourself and other members at Battery Beach. Do you agree with that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson and I accepted that terrorists or a terrorist would be present.

MR LAX: If I may interpose here, you're answering in a very general way and the question was quite specific. Mbane says his instruction was to pick up Khubeka. You've answered yes, that is so, we were expecting terrorists. Did you know about Khubeka specifically or didn't you?

MR DU PREEZ: I knew that Khubeka was involved with these terrorists and that Mbane and the others worked with Khubeka, that this was their contact person.

MR LAX: So did you expect her to be in the vehicle that day?

MR DU PREEZ: It was possible that she would be in the vehicle.

MR LAX: And that she would be amongst the terrorists that would be picked up?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Just before I proceed, I just want to find out one thing. If Ms Khubeka was screaming during this ordeal, would you know about it?

MR LAX: At which stage, Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: While she was being beaten prior to her death.

MR LAX: After arriving back at the shooting range.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, at no stage did I participate in her interrogation.

MR LAX: Yes, but I think the question relates to screaming. Did you hear any screaming?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Why wouldn't that be so? Was she not screaming, or you just didn't hear it?

MR DU PREEZ: The time when I dropped off and delivered Khubeka to Taylor and Botha, she never screamed and during the time that I was there, I never heard her scream.

MR SAMUEL: Right. Mr Mbane will say that after he had handed over Ms Khubeka to Mr Botha and yourself and the other members, he had then returned to Winkelspruit where he had met you all at the Winkelspruit shooting range.

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that Mbane arrived there.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't they sleep there, the members of C1?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, but they moved around quite a bit, during this time they were away quite often.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: He will also say that when he got back to the shooting range, he noticed Ms Khubeka was both blindfolded and tied, both hands and feet.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: And he is more specific in regard to how she was tied. He says she was tied with a piece of rope.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: He will say on occasions whilst Ms Khubeka was being interrogated and beaten, the door was open and he noticed Mr Botha and Mr Taylor both on some occasion or the other hitting Ms Khubeka with a whip.

MR DU PREEZ: I wouldn't know about that.

MR SAMUEL: And he will say also that the reason why Ms Khubeka was specifically asked to be brought to Mr Botha and yourselves, was that Ms Khubeka had informed him that there was a handler or a Commander of two men and Ms Khubeka had handed of to Mr Mbane to find safe-houses for and she wanted to see them and she was becoming suspicious. He further will state that he told Mr Botha and you were present at that time and Mr Taylor about Ms Khubeka's suspicions and Mr Botha had instructed him to bring Ms Khubeka to him.

MR DU PREEZ: I was not present during such a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Samuel, I don't think that I fully understand your instructions there. Do you say that Mr Mbane will say that he phoned Botha and that they were present when he phoned?...(indistinct - mike not on) that Mr Mbane phoned Botha and he says du Preez and Taylor were present when he phoned?

MR SAMUEL: I don't recall using the word phoned, but that's not what I meant.

ADV BOSMAN: I may have it wrong, but this is what I wrote down.

MR SAMUEL: I'm sorry, Madam, the position is that Ms Khubeka had given Mr Mbane two cadres to find safe-house for and Ms Khubeka became suspicious because she did not meet them thereafter, in fact Mr Mbane will say that both these people were killed. In any event, Ms Khubeka wanted to see them, these two cadres and he then - she became suspicious and she also stated that the Commander of the cadres was in Durban and wished to see them. Mr Mbane will also state that he reported this to Mr Botha together with Mr Taylor in which meeting you were also present.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Samuel, perhaps - have you got instructions as to where that meeting took place?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. At Winkelspruit where they normally meet up.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know anything about this discussion or this person.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that Mr Botha had instructed him to bring Ms Nthombi Khubeka to yourselves, to your group.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: And that is the reason why they agreed to meet Ms Khubeka or made a rendezvous with Ms Khubeka to take her, to pick her up at the Durban Station and bring her to you all at Battery Beach.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something? You're saying this isn't so. Your previous evidence was that you don't remember that happening at all, but you said you weren't present at any such meeting.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, what I understand from the allegation is that something like that was said and that I was present during such a discussion and that is not correct.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) what's not so is that you weren't there.

MR DU PREEZ: I don't know of any such discussion.

MR LAX: What I wanted to clarify was, is it possible that such a meeting took place and you simply don't remember it, or are you absolutely certain it never happened?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, from what Botha explained to us, when we would have undertaken the rendezvous at Battery Beach, this does not concur. Botha explained to us that Jimmy Mbane and the others would bring terrorists to that point, terrorists who would be arranged by Khubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: The question which Mr Lax is asking you is, are you saying that the meeting referred to now by Mr Samuel, namely that took place at the shooting range where Mr Mbane says that you were present when he told Taylor and Botha about the suspicions of the deceased, of Ms Khubeka, and that he was then instructed to go and fetch Ms Khubeka and bring her to the group, now that discussion, are you saying that you can't remember such a discussion, or are you saying no, such a discussion never took place?

MR DU PREEZ: I was not present during such discussion.

MR LAX: In other words you're saying as far as you're concerned no such thing ever happened because if it had happened you would have remembered it? Do you see the difference?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, all I'm saying is that I was not present during such a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez perhaps I can assist you with this question in Afrikaans. The question is are you saying that you were not present or are you saying that you were not present and that no such discussion ever took place.

MR DU PREEZ: What I am saying is that I was not present.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words there may have been such a discussion during which you were not present?

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible, but then it would also be strange to me that Botha would have told us something other than what he had discussed with Jimmy Mbane.

ADV BOSMAN: I think that you have now answered Mr Lax's question. Thank you very much.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, you will recall that the last part of Mr Samuel's question was, or statement was that Mbane had to bring Khubeka to the group there and that he specifically denied, that was his denial.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you. Mr Mbane will say that he was present when the body was removed from the room and put into the motor vehicle, do you recall that? Or he was able to see when the body was being removed from the room and put into the motor vehicle.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I think that that would have been impossible because the door of the room pointed in another direction from where the members were sleeping.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you perhaps recall where Mr Botha was when you loaded the body into the vehicle?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, but what I can recall is that Wasserman and I waited until there was no-one in the vicinity. We waited for everyone to go to sleep or for those members who were going away to depart and once the situation presented itself, we loaded the body into the vehicle.

ADV BOSMAN: So you said that Mr Botha was not in the vicinity or can you not recall?

MR DU PREEZ: No-one was present.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying as far as you are concerned, as far as you believe, no-one saw you loading that body into the Skyline?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And your reason for that would be the reason why Jimmy could not have seen you, it's because the room that he was in, it was impossible in your words to see the body being removed?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know where Jimmy was precisely. It is my evidence that I didn't see anyone in the vicinity, if Jimmy was perhaps watching us from a place where he could observe the scene, it is possible, but when we removed the body from the storeroom and placed the body in the vehicle, there was no-one on the premises who was still up, or walking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Because Mr Botha said he saw the body being put into the vehicle.

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that.

MR LAX: And obviously if Botha says he saw it, others may have seen it. You might be under the firm belief that nobody saw you, but he says it and Mbane says it. Is that not a possibility?

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible.

MR LAX: And that you're mistaken maybe in your belief that nobody saw you.

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible.

MR LAX: Just a question, why did you take such care to hide all of this from everybody?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this was a person who had died and we were on the verge of dealing unlawfully with this body.

MR LAX: But everyone knew she was dead, everyone was present, everybody knew that she died during the interrogation.

MR VISSER: With respect, Mr Chairman, everybody wasn't present. That is not the evidence, with great respect. the evidence of the applicants was that certain people were in that room, it is now being put that other people may have seen, may not have seen, but it's not the evidence that everybody and with that I include the askaris because that seems to be everybody and we don't even know who everybody was that were on the farm. That's not a fair question.

MR LAX: Fair enough, I'll change the question. The fact of the matter is though, that whoever was in that room and busy with interrogation knew about it.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. I assumed that there were other persons who knew about it.

MR LAX: Were you aware that the black members who were there and around the room and outside the room, knew that this person was dead?

MR DU PREEZ: I didn't know that. It is possible that they may have assumed it or may have come to hear of it, but I don't know.

MR LAX: I'll leave it there, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chair. So your statement that it would have been impossible for anyone to have noticed you is wrong, clearly now after your answers thus far.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he went - he didn't say it was impossible for people to notice, he said that Mr Mbane wouldn't have seen because the door where the body was taken pointed to a different place from where they slept. It will be impossible if Mr Mbane said he was in the place where he slept when he saw it, according to his evidence. I don't know whether it's possible or not.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbane says that when this body was removed from this room, it was covered in a blanket. Do you recall that, Sir?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And you still maintaining that although you had taken such care to remove the body without anybody seeing it, you did not take the added precaution of wrapping this body in a blanket? Are you maintaining that Sir?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson. We parked the vehicle so that the boot would be right next to the entrance of the room.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't want to interrupt my learned friend, but while this witness is present and is under cross-examination, perhaps he could tell us where Mr Mbane was when he saw all these things? Why should that be a secret.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. And I think an in locus inspection might assist. According to Mr Mbane the room where he was in he could see the motor vehicle and the entrance, or the exit from which you all came out. Basically he was in his room.

CHAIRPERSON: The room where they sleep, where he was sleeping at that time?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, if he was in the room where they were sleeping, he would definitely not have been able to see.

CHAIRPERSON: Does this shooting range still exist, do you know?

MR DU PREEZ: I think that it is now a public place. I don't know whether the building still exists.

MR SAMUEL: In any event what Mr Botha had seen and what Mr Mbane says he saw seems to tie up because Mr Mbane will say that this body was never put into a Nissan Skyline, it was put into a Toyota panel van. I think Mr Botha also confirms that.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Samuel, Mr Botha couldn't remember what kind of vehicle it was. That was his evidence.

MR SAMUEL: My apologies if that was the case, but I understood him as saying that it was a Toyota, but be that as it may. Mr Mbane will say he looked at that body and it would have been virtually impossible because of the size of the body to put it into a Nissan Skyline, in the boot especially of a Nissan Skyline.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that is the vehicle that we loaded her into.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr du Preez, were you not concerned at all about evidence being left in the boot of your vehicle, strands of hair, whatever? Did you not think about wrapping up the body or putting it in a plastic bag, or whatever, to prevent your boot being contaminated with evidence that a body had been transported in it?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, there was nothing that I could think of which would have remained behind of the body, which would have been able to serve as proof.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm a lay man, I'm not a policeman, but a strand of hair can be proof that there was a body. The smallest stain might provide proof that there was a body. Did you not think of that at all?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Major, Mr Mbane will say that he was paid the sum of R7 000 for this operation. You wouldn't know anything about it?

MR DU PREEZ: I wouldn't know that.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions or submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions that you have to put to the witness?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Mr du Preez, it's obvious from the evidence thus far that your unit and by your unit I'm talking about the Durban Security Policemen, had an intense interest in the deceased in this matter, prior to her demise?

MR DU PREEZ: In the family or this person?

MR WILLS: No, the deceased, the person, Nthombi Khubeka.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, she was under our attention.

MR WILLS: Yes and if she was so involved with her relatives being in Lusaka in the ANC I presume, and involved with internal and external trained guerrillas and your unit was specifically set up to deal with intelligence in that regard, she'd be a person who you'd want to speak to, I'd imagine.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she was under our attention and that is exactly why the members of C1 were called in.

MR WILLS: Yes, but specifically, she's a person that you would want information from, you would want to speak to her.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, one couldn't always speak to every single person who was a suspect.

MR WILLS: I'm not asking whether you could or you couldn't. I'm asking you what must be the probabilities in this case, that she was one of the people who you would want to speak to because she had all of this information, she was such an important person.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson that is exactly why we enlisted C Section members.

MR WILLS: Yes, because you wanted to speak to her. Is that right?

MR DU PREEZ: We wanted to find out more about her activities.

MR WILLS: Yes. And there's various ways of finding out about her activities. The one is that you send people in and you, like happened at least for part of the situation in this case where you sent the C1 members in to infiltrate.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And the other way is just to interrogate her. Not so?

MR DU PREEZ: That could have been an option. We did not exercise that option.

MR WILLS: Why not?

MR DU PREEZ: Because we had enlisted C1 members.

MR WILLS: But are these options mutually exclusive?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't understand the question.

MR WILLS: I'm saying why can't you do both?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the option that we exercised according to my evidence, is the one that I gave testimony about.

MR WILLS: Well, as I understood your questioning, your answers to the questions by Commissioner Lax, you can't remember exactly what the instruction was from Col Botha as regards whether or not she was going to be brought with other terrorists or not. Is that correct?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the evidence that I gave indicated that what I understood from Botha was that this Khubeka handled the terrorists and that she would have arranged for us to meet them there at the rendezvous point and the possibility existed that she would also be present during this rendezvous.

MR WILLS: Yes and so if she was present, if the possibility existed that she would be present at this rendezvous point, then it must imply that you considered talking to her because otherwise why would she be present? You would make sure that she wasn't present.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this would normally have flowed forth from an arrest, for us to talk to her.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, did Col Botha tell you that she could possibly present, or did you just say that you thought that she could possibly be present? That isn't clear to me.

MR DU PREEZ: What I understood from Botha is that Khubeka arranged for terrorists to meet at Battery Beach, that there would be a meeting at Battery Beach and we would have arrested the terrorists at this point. And I understood from that that she would automatically be present herself because she arranged the rendezvous. Did you draw the conclusion that she could possibly be present there?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, Mr Wills. Thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Sorry, in answer to your last question the interpreter used the words "she would automatically be present", that implies to me that you expected her to be present.

MR DU PREEZ: No, that's not what I said, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Sorry may I ask if the interpreter made a mistake in that regard?

INTERPRETER: I clearly recall hearing the applicant say that he used the word automatic.

MR VISSER: That was the Afrikaans Mr Chairman, he said:

MR LAX: There wasn't a mistake Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. So you expected her to be there?

You must have, if she would automatically be there, because she arranged the meeting.

MR DU PREEZ: I expected her to be there.

MR WILLS: Yes, so it wasn't a possibility now, she was part of the plan and she was one of the people that were going to be arrested that day, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed Mr Wills, I'd just like to intervene on a point. You say she arranged the meeting. Do you know who determined Battery Beach to be the rendezvous point? Who decided that the vehicle, the Toyota Corolla, containing the deceased and maybe other persons, go to Battery Beach and that you wait there?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall you mentioned that place or determined that place, whether it was Botha, or whether it was Jimmy Mbane, or whether it was Khubeka, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you expecting the possibility of a shoot-out? In other words, if that vehicle contained three or four other people, you were there, your group was there, was there the possibility of a shoot-out?

MR DU PREEZ: We were armed Chairperson. One was always armed when you arrested terrorists.

CHAIRPERSON: So that possibility existed that there might have been a shoot-out?

MR DU PREEZ: It was possible.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your personal view on the suitability of Battery Beach being a rendezvous point in those circumstances?

MR DU PREEZ: I did not have a problem with it, Chairperson. Many meetings were arranged in and around the city with terrorists for similar operations.

MR LAX: Can I just follow up Mr Wills, before you go on? There's just something puzzling me here, it's just bothering me really. You say that she was arranging the meeting?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I said that I don't know whether she arranged it.

MR LAX: But you've just said ...(intervention)

MR DU PREEZ: Do you specifically refer to the place, or the rendezvous point?

MR LAX: Your answer as it was translated earlier was, she was arranging the meeting and therefore automatically she would be there, now flowing from that, if she was arranging the meeting, obviously the point at which they were going to meet must have been determined by her? That follows, doesn't it? It's a question of logic.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I am not certain of the facts as you have put them now, whether she arranged for the persons to be present.

MR LAX: Yes, but how would she know where they were going to meet? If she was organising the meeting it was logical that the venue would be chosen by her.

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible that Mbane may have told her where to meet. I was not present when those arrangements were made.

MR LAX: The question is though that the expectation was that she would come there together with some terrorists.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you people were waiting there to observe the meeting and arrest them.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, I'd just like to finish this point very briefly before the tea adjournment.

Thank you. The evidence of Mr Botha yesterday was that he was surprised that she was in the car. This is obviously not your recollection of the meeting, you were expecting her to be there?

MR VISSER: There's a subtle difference, Chairman, as Commissioner Lax likes to put it, between he was surprised to find her in the car and he was surprised to find her alone in the car and we submit that that is what Botha said.

MR LAX: In fact he didn't expect her there at all.

MR VISSER: That is in fact precisely correct. He didn't expect her there, according to his arrangements made with Mbane, he expected terrorists there.

MR LAX: He didn't expect terrorists there, he expected the leader of the group to be there, to be precise about it.

MR VISSER: Yes, but he did say Mr Chairman, with respect, he expected the leader of the group because that's what he asked Mbane to bring there, but he also conceived the possibility that there may be another terrorist, so when I say terrorists, I mean the leader of the group and/or others.

MR WILLS: My understanding, with respect, Mr Chairman, of the evidence of Botha was that the arrest and the fact that Khubeka was there was a complete surprise to him. He wasn't expecting her there in the least and it was in fact a bit of a mistake,...(intervention).

MR LAX: A blunder, to put it plainly.

MR WILLS: A blunder that she was there and that she was arrested, that was the evidence of Botha.

MR VISSER: I don't object to that at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on then, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. My question, to repeat, my final question on this point is that, if Botha was surprised that she would be in the car at that time, that certainly was not your impression, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I was surprised that no terrorists were present.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question Mr Wills is putting to you is, did you get the impression that Mr Botha, or Col Botha was surprised that Ms Khubeka was in the vehicle at Battery Beach?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I'll leave it there.

I'm not finished my cross-examination, I've got a number of other issues to ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You specifically said you just wanted to finish that point. I'm just finishing my note.

Yes, thank you. We'll now take the short tea adjournment till half past 11.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you wish to remove your jackets, please do so and please don't wait for me everyday to say so, just remove them.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, may I just apologise for any delay I have caused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Samuel. Mr Wills, you were busy questioning the applicant, Maj du Preez.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: (cont.)

Now, if it was expected that you were going to be arresting, for want of a better phrase, Khubeka on the day in question, so too it must have been expected that you were going to do something with her, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not suppose there was a possibility that she would also be on the scene. I did not expect that we would arrest her. May I just say that we expected that we would arrest terrorists.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that that wasn't your earlier evidence, but even on the basis that there was a possibility that she would be arrested then so too you must have planned for something to happen in consequence of that arrest, not so? You don't just arrest someone and then not know what to do with the person. I want to know what you planned to do with her in the event that she was arrested.

MR DU PREEZ: In such a case, such a person would be a witness.

MR WILLS: Is that what was discussed, that you'd use her as a witness?

MR DU PREEZ: No, I didn't discuss it Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Surely the ...(intervention)

MR DU PREEZ: It was not supposed that she would be arrested, or it was not planned that she would be arrested, so there was no planning with regard to what would happen after the arrest.

MR WILLS: You must agree that she was a useful source of intelligence to you, potentially.

MR DU PREEZ: I am not entirely sure of the question.

MR WILLS: You must agree, I'll repeat, that she was potentially a major source of intelligence to you and your operations and you, please unless I refer specifically to the contrary, when I speak of you, I'm referring to you as the Durban Security Branch.

MR DU PREEZ: She handled terrorists and helped them with the storage of arms, so she was of interest.

MR WILLS: Yes and so as a result of that surely and I put this to you, you must have wanted to speak to her to get that information?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we sent in C1 members to meet with her and it would have placed the operation at a disadvantage if we arrested her and spoke to her.

MR WILLS: Well, why was that?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson with an intelligence operation one plans how the persons would be arrested and it was decided that C1 members would be sent in to meet with this person for the purpose of arresting terrorists. At no stage was it planned that Khubeka would be arrested and interrogated.

MR WILLS: That wasn't my question. I asked you why was it - I think your answer was a security risk to the operation if you spoke to her. I'm asking you why was that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that, my note says it would have been a disadvantage to have arrested her.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Why would it have been a disadvantage to you?

MR DU PREEZ: It would have been deemed unnecessary, the operation, to send in the C1 members and then the operation would have been of no value at all.

MR WILLS: So, is the inference of your evidence that under all circumstances, you wanted to keep a distance from her and not let anybody know that the police had ever come into contact with her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we wanted to arrest terrorists through her, by establishing contact with her, we wanted to arrest terrorists.

MR WILLS: Yes, but please, possibly you're not understanding me. I'll repeat my question. It seems to me that you wanted to make sure that nobody else around in the community that she was operating in knew that yourselves, being the police, had anything to do with her.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot think that such an impression would be created.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, did you understand Mr Wills' question correctly? His question was that did you want to create the impression with the community that the police had nothing to do with that?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know how one would create such an impression, whether I would go to the community and tell everybody "I am not interested in this person", I don't know what Mr Wills means. How would I create such an impression? If I had to necessarily drive around in the community and tell them that I am not interested in this person, I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could even go further with Mr Wills' question, is it not correct that you didn't even want to create the impression with Ms Khubeka that she was dealing with the police, or the police had any interest in her.

MR DU PREEZ: I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You had sent in C1 operatives, askaris, who were pretending to be MK cadres to get information from her, unwittingly from her, without her knowing that she's, that information's being passed to the police.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you as the police, the Security Branch, didn't want her to know that she was dealing in any way with the police.

MR DU PREEZ: That follows automatically Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that is basically what the question was.

MR WILLS: And that if it was found out that she herself had been in your hands, like for example after she was arrested, that would jeopardise your whole operation?

MR DU PREEZ: Please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: If it had been found out by the community that she had been arrested by yourselves as happened, it would have jeopardised your whole intelligence gathering operation.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So one of the considerations as regards what to do with her, was to make sure that nobody would ever find out that she had been arrested.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why? When I say nobody, I exclude the police.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, after her arrest, it was tried to establish where the terrorists were with whom she had dealings.

MR WILLS: Please, possibly it's a language problem, but I'll try and ask my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, correct me if I'm wrong Mr Wills, he's saying did you the Security Branch not have an interest to keep her arrest secret that no-one gets to know of the fact that she's arrested?

MR DU PREEZ: That would have been an advantage to us Chairperson, until the time that we arrested persons with whom she had dealings with and the persons of whom she had information about.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, is it not also so that the way this operation must have worked is that the people from C1 who were the people who had infiltrated the unit, would have regular contact with those of you who were slightly higher, possibly you refer to them as handlers and then the handlers through to you, so that you knew at all times, you were aware of what information was being obtained from that information process.

MR DU PREEZ: Botha dealt with them Chairperson, Mr Botha dealt with the C1 members.

MR WILLS: So you are under the impression that Botha must have had regular meetings with those C1 members in order to find out the information that they were receiving?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that if the information that some of these informers were getting was that the deceased was becoming suspicious, in probability that would have been, that fact would have been communicated to Mr Botha. it's an important fact.

MR DU PREEZ: I believe so, Chairperson, I don't know about it.

MR WILLS: Now, you as a Security Policeman, in a situation and this is, I am posing a hypothetical situation, if the person who you're watching is getting suspicious, what would you do in a situation like that?

MR DU PREEZ: It depends on circumstances, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well, let's put you in these circumstances. You've got two or three people infiltrating that network. She's asking questions about the whereabouts of people. She's getting suspicious, she's saying things that the Security Branch might be onto her. What would you do? Let's say you received that information today and you were still carrying on with the operation?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I think what happened in this instance was that she was encouraged to disclose the addresses of the persons or arrange a meeting for these persons so that they ...(intervention).

MR LAX: With respect Mr du Preez, the whole question here is now, your operation's in jeopardy, the subject of your operation is becoming suspicious, you get that information, now the first thing is, you'll concede, your agents are in danger, number 1, because she's beginning to suspect something funny is going on here. Do you concede that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is what was said.

MR LAX: In that context you really only have two courses of action. You either remove your agents, right, and cancel the operation.

MR DU PREEZ: Correct.

MR LAX: Or you bring the subject in. That's another possibility and probably a more reasonable one if you want to try and get information out of her, particularly in the light of the fact that, as you've said, your real aim was to get the terrorists that she was the contact for.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in this instance I think it was that she was pressurised to arrange a meeting with this person, that it had been brought forward and that pressure be placed on her to arrange a meeting.

MR LAX: As Col Botha told us yesterday, there wasn't much progress being made in that regard. What's the next best thing after that? Bring her in. Try and get the information out of her yourself, because your agents aren't having any luck. Not so?

MR DU PREEZ: It's a possibility, Chairperson, but that is not what I understood when we went for the operation, or for the arrest.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you saying that you did not know that she was suspicious?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Well I put it to you that you knew very well that day that she was going to be arrested.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You'd planned in fact to arrest her in order to get the information from her, simply because your askaris and informers were not succeeding.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, I want to concentrate for a while on the circumstances of the arrest. Tell me exactly who approached the car and what each person did.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly which person was in which position because I cannot even recall in which position Khubeka had sat, whether she was in the front of the vehicle or in the back of the vehicle. What I do recall is that we approached the vehicle and opened the doors to find terrorists and what - in the end there was only Khubeka which was the stranger in the car and I can recall that after she had climbed out of the vehicle, I grabbed her from behind and took her to the kombi. I half lifted her and dragged her to the kombi and this happened very quickly.

MR WILLS: Now you were expecting to arrest terrorists.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Did you have a back-up vehicle?

MR DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall. We were all in the kombi.

MR WILLS: Were you - did you approach the vehicle with your arms drawn, I mean you weapons drawn?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: What time of the day was this?

MR DU PREEZ: It was dusk.

MR WILLS: So in the full view of the public?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you not even recall how many people approached the car? You see, I mean, you were here with me in the hearing we did on the Shabalala's and there was evidence exactly how that arrest took place. One person, I think it was Botha, put the gun in the stomach of the person and other people did other things. That's the sort

of thing that I'm trying to establish here. Can't you remember anything about the actual arrest apart from your own involvement?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, that is how I testified what I can recall of the incident.

MR WILLS: Was the car surrounded?

MR DU PREEZ: I think we opened all the doors simultaneously and each person went to a door.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez can you recall the date on which this happened?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I don't have any recollection.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any idea about the time of the year? What time of the year it was that happened? What the month was?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So could it have been either December or July, as far as you're concerned?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, from evidence later I saw that it was March/April. I don't have any recollection about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what day of the week it was?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember whether it was a working week day, a Monday to Friday, or whether it occurred over the weekend?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, but I saw that Botha said that he thought it was a Sunday. I don't have any recollection of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall whether there was rush-hour traffic going by, that Battery Beach is just near the main road to La Lucia, isn't it, or Umhlanga Rocks, kwaMashu and those places?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I can recall that it was quiet, there were very few or no public in the area at all. In our immediate vicinity there were no people who took note of us.

CHAIRPERSON: If it was a Sunday, wouldn't one expect that there would still be people, if it was not yet dark, hanging around the beach front area, if it was a Sunday? Because normally the Sundays the beaches get quite full.

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall Chairperson, it was very quiet at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Now as I understand your evidence you were expecting to arrest terrorists and these terrorists were people who were trained outside, people who had come from Zambia, is that right?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Heavily armed men, or dangerous men, I should rather say.

MR DU PREEZ: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So I would have thought that you would have sat down beforehand and planned the operation in the event of there being a shoot-out, what to do and each person had what responsibility, did that happen?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that, Chairperson. I assume that there must have been such a discussion, as to what everybody would do there.

MR WILLS: With respect, you don't seem to remember much, Mr du Preez. I would have thought that you would have remembered a plan on how this operation of arrest was going to take place.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, 17/18 years I was - for the 17/18 years I was in the Security Branch I launched thousands of operations where persons were arrested in vehicles and it is something that one does impromptu and on the scene you will observe and at the scene we will say which person will open which door. I was involved in thousands of such matters and that is why I do not have a specific recollection of the incident.

MR WILLS: Were you involved in thousands against women?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I'm suggesting that because a woman was involved in this instance that it would spark your memory, because it was a different, something different to the usual.

MR DU PREEZ: I can recall that I grabbed her Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You see, wouldn't it also be probable, or wouldn't you have insured that if you were going to be arresting armed people, that you had a back-up vehicle in place in case a shoot-out occurred?

CHAIRPERSON: Or in case you arrested 5 other people, or 4 other people?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we had a kombi which many people could be loaded into. The kombi was specifically taken so that it would not draw any attention.

MR WILLS: But on your evidence there were four people, four or five, sorry, I can't remember, in the kombi and everyone was involved in the operation to get out and arrest. Is that right?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So is that enough people to deal with armed terrorists who might resist arrest? You see, I'll just be plain on this point, I've had, been involved in various criminal trials and inquests where people like this had been arrested and it seems to me that frequently the position is that when it's known that dangerous trained guerrillas are going to be arrested, there is always a back-up, and someone to come in just in case something untoward occurs.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the operation was executed as I have testified here. We were four or we were five persons and the expectation was that there would be one or two terrorists. If there were four we could have handled that as well.

MR LAX: Mr du Preez, just building on Mr Wills' point and it's been worrying me as well, particularly in the light of Mr Wasserman's testimony in the Quarry Road matter, you guys weren't armed with assault rifles and in the Quarry Road matter he was saying they would never have gone in there if the intention had been to arrest, as your intention was in this instance, with a vehicle full of people.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it would not have been a vehicle full. C1 members could also assist if there was an arrest to be executed.

MR LAX: The question is, how many C1 members were there present? How were they organised? What was your back-up plan? What fire power did they have, if this is a case where you are arresting potentially dangerous people?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I never doubted the fact that we were enough people to handle the situation.

MR WILLS: Well, I just put it to you that the way you've described the arrest appears to me to be more fitting for the arrest of one person, i.e. the planned arrest of Nthombi Khubeka and not other ANC persons as has been testified.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, did you indicate that Ms Khubeka struggled at all during the process of her arrest?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she was grabbed, she was lifted off her feet and taken to the kombi and this was accompanied by the necessary violence to keep her under control.

MR WILLS: My question was, did she struggle? Did she try and run away? Did she try and resist arrest in any way? You were holding her, you would know that.

MR DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall. She was taken violently to the kombi.

MR WILLS: What do you mean by violently?

MR DU PREEZ: Against her will. She was picked up.

CHAIRPERSON: ...recall her thrashing her arms about or trying to kick you or anything like that?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson. She also did not shout.

MR WILLS: So you'd be surprised if she got injured in any way in the process of her arrest and in her transportation to the Winkelspruit shooting range?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't know of any injuries that she may have had, I don't believe that she had any injuries.

MR WILLS: And you don't believe she would have been injured in the process of your arresting her and you carrying her to the car?

MR DU PREEZ: That is improbable.

MR WILLS: So if it was later proved that she did in fact have broken ribs, you would say that that must have occurred after you handed her over, in your words, to Capt Botha?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, just describe the interior of the panel van. Was it a Toyota Hi Ace, a kombi type panel van or a Venture type panel van?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a Toyota panel van, such as a Post Office bus. It was a bus which was very empty, completely empty at the back with a wooden floor covered in carpeting.

MR WILLS: It's basically like a Toyota minibus but without the windows and seats?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: A quite common vehicle.

MR DU PREEZ: That would be the same type of vehicle.

MR WILLS: Like a taxi, minibus taxi?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, except that it wouldn't have windows on the sides.

MR WILLS: And Ms Khubeka was placed on the floor of this?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you restrained her?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: How did you restrain her?

MR DU PREEZ: She was told to lie still and we told her that we were the police.

MR WILLS: Yes. Did you not have to physically restrain her in any way?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, after she was in the vehicle, she didn't put up any fight, she accepted that she had been arrested or that she was under our custody.

MR WILLS: Yes and who else, if you can recall, came with you in the kombi?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall Chairperson, but it must have been van der Westhuizen, Boshoff and Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: You say Boshoff, is that Basson or Boshoff?

MR DU PREEZ: I beg your pardon, it is Basson.

MR WILLS: Why do you use the phrase "must have been"?

MR DU PREEZ: Because all of us arrived there in that vehicle.

MR WILLS: But earlier on in your evidence you weren't sure, are you now sure?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall any other vehicle.

MR WILLS: No, but we know that the vehicle that Ms Khubeka was transported to Battery Beach also went back to Winkelspruit later on. Who travelled in that vehicle? We would assume Mbane would be one of the people.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Who else?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot even recall that they returned.

MR WILLS: ...there the whole day?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall seeing them again.

MR WILLS: But in short, you're not positive as to who was in the vehicle with you?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson it was me, Botha, van der Westhuizen and Basson and I think that there was another member of C1 but I don't know who he was.

MR WILLS: Where were they sitting?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall who sat where or who drove the vehicle. I can recall that I sat in the back of the vehicle with Nthombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, in that vehicle, how many people can sit where the driver sits, including the driver. You get the driver and then, is it a bench seat, or is it room for only one other person in the front?

MR DU PREEZ: There is room for three people to sit in front.

MR WILLS: Was anyone behind with you?

MR DU PREEZ: There were other people in the back with me.

MR WILLS: Can you remember how many people were sitting in the front and how many people were in the back?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that.

MR WILLS: So how can you be sure that these people were in fact with you in the car?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, there were others in the back of the vehicle with me and there was the person driving the vehicle, but I cannot recall who it was who drove the vehicle and who sat in the back with me.

MR WILLS: So in other words you don't know who was in the vehicle? You're making assumptions post facto.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the persons who were with me in the vehicle were van der Westhuizen, Botha, Basson and I cannot recall who the C1 member was.

MR WILLS: Now, if it wasn't your intention to arrest Khubeka, why didn't you just take her and detain her and put her through the normal police processes?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she would be interrogated about the terrorists whom she knew about.

MR LAX: That still doesn't change the question. You could have still questioned her. Why take her to the shooting range? Why not question her at C R Swart in the normal course of a Section 29 detention, which you would have been perfectly entitled to use?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she would probably have been taken to C R Swart later for detention.

MR LAX: The question is why take her to the shooting range?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that is the point from where we operated and that is where we were going to interrogate her?

MR WILLS: I'm asking you why did you take her there?

MR DU PREEZ: To interrogate her.

MR WILLS: Why do you take her to a place that is hidden from all the other people, and hidden from where she's essentially denied all of her rights? What was the reason for that? You took her to a secret hide-out where you conducted these activities, why was that?

MR DU PREEZ: To interrogate her.

MR WILLS: Why couldn't you just take her to the normal police station and interrogate her in the cells at C R Swart? Book her in like a normal arrest. Why was there the need to take her to this other place? Can I help you?

MR DU PREEZ: It was to interrogate her.

MR WILLS: Isn't it because you wanted to beat the living daylights out of her, without anybody else finding out?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I put it to you it was.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR WILLS: Well, can you give me another reason as to why she wasn't taken to the police station?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the reason why we took her there was to interrogate her. That was the premises from where we operated at that stage.

MR LAX: Sorry, at that time, I can't recall, was there any state of emergency prevailing?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Just - my recollection is that there was. I wouldn't know the specific date but 1987, middle of that year there was definitely a state of emergency on the go.

MR VISSER: You can accept that there was, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. How did you expect that she was going to be interrogated?

MR DU PREEZ: I accepted that Botha and Taylor would interrogate her.

MR WILLS: Yes. What methods did you expect that they were going to use?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I didn't have any preconceived ideas.

MR WILLS: What methods were usually used? Is it that you sat down and had a cup of tea and said: "Mrs Khubeka, nice to meet you. We've heard about your family in Lusaka. How are they doing now? Please tell us about what's going on."

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, such discussions did take place. There were such interrogations.

MR WILLS: I put it to you, you would have foreseen the likelihood that she would have been assaulted in that interrogation.

MR DU PREEZ: Not necessarily. If a person co-operated he or she would not be assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: But you see, the impression I got from Mr Botha's evidence was, he said that while she was being interrogated, she was being beaten by Col Taylor and as far as he was concerned, Taylor was beating her not because she was not co-operating but just to stress the seriousness of the occasion to her. In other words, it was a sort of gratuitous type of beating, it wasn't done with the intention to get her to talk, that was the impression that Mr Botha said that he had. She was being beaten from time to time by Taylor, just to stress the seriousness of it.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I would not be able to comment on that. During my time when I interrogated people, I cannot think that I would have assaulted someone if he or she had co-operated.

MR WILLS: Yes, but from your answer you say that on the one hand, had she not co-operated, she would have been beaten. You would have expected that?

MR DU PREEZ: That was a possibility.

MR WILLS: Let's not beat around the bush with respect.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, what's wrong with the answer? Who's beating around the bush?

CHAIRPERSON: He's cross-examining, he can persist with his line I think.

MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman, there's no reason to be discourteous to the witness.

MR WILLS: That wasn't my intention, with respect, Mr Visser and if it was I apologise, if I am being discourteous. I'm trying to get to the truth of this matter. Was it not a probability that she would be beaten, if she wasn't co-operative? It's not a possibility, it's a probability?

MR DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, I cannot testify now about things during which I was not present. I don't know what the circumstances were surrounding this entire interrogation, therefore it is difficult for me to give you an answer regarding this.

MR WILLS: You testified that if she co-operated, she wouldn't be beaten and if she did ...

MR DU PREEZ: That is what I believed and that is what I still believe.

MR WILLS: Yes. My question is that it seems to me likely that if somebody doesn't co-operate, then the chances are they're going to receive a bit of a hiding in order to get them to co-operate.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So in that regard, you must have at least foreseen the possibility of her being assaulted when she was taken for interrogation?

MR DU PREEZ: There was a possibility that she could have been assaulted.

MR WILLS: And you knew that at the time you arrested her and you were, as you were taking her to this torture chamber.

MR DU PREEZ: It did not occur to me.

MR WILLS: What occurred to you? What did you think was going to happen to her?

MR DU PREEZ: I knew that she would be interrogated.

MR WILLS: And that the possibility was that she would be assaulted during that interrogation?

MR DU PREEZ: That was a possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any sjambok at all in the office or in the room where it was?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Did you see a length of black piping in that room?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you go into the room prior to her interrogation commencing?

MR DU PREEZ: I was in that room previously, but upon my arrival at the premises, I did not enter the room.

MR WILLS: Where was Mr Taylor when you arrived?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall. I cannot recall whether he stood outside or where it was that I met him.

MR WILLS: So your evidence is to the effect that you - sorry I withdraw that question. You'd been out, one must imagine for some hours, away from that place that day prior to you returning with Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So you cannot say what was or wasn't in that room, or what had been brought into that room in the intervening period?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Did you go into the room at all during the interrogation?

MR DU PREEZ: I was never present during the interrogation.

MR WILLS: Was there any particular reason for that?

MR DU PREEZ: Shortly after I arrived and delivered the person, as I have stated, I departed. It would seem as if you're uncertain as to the reason why you departed, or am I mistaken? Why did you depart?

MR DU PREEZ: I went to deal with other duties and also to buy food.

MR WILLS: What food did you buy?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: Did you buy food for the detainee?

MR DU PREEZ: I assume so.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you went to buy food, were you going to buy food for everyone who was sleeping, for all the C1 members, was this a - or were you just getting take-always?

MR DU PREEZ: I assume that it was take-away meals, food for those people who were there, or those who wanted food.

MR LAX: But Mr du Preez, that would have entailed you knowing how many people to buy for, what each one might want. It would be something that you would have taken specific instructions on, you wouldn't have just gone to buy a "klomp wegneemetes", as one would put it, you would have known.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in this specific case, I cannot recall precisely what I bought, but usually we would buy Kentucky or if there were 10 persons, it would be 10 hamburgers. So I cannot recall specifically what I bought.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go alone when you went for the food, or did you go with somebody?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Sorry, just while we're on this thing, you went to go and do other duties you say, in your summary of your evidence here, the written summary. I have canvassed this with you already a little bit, yet you can't remember what those other duties are. Have I understood you correctly?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: Well if you can't remember what those other duties are, how can you remember at all that you even went to do other duties?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the reason why I recall is because I was away from the place and when I returned, upon my arrival there Botha informed me that Khubeka had died and I was very surprised about it and the reason why I say this, that I know that I was away, is because I arrived back at the place and Botha informed me about Khubeka who had died.

MR LAX: ...one iota of a clue as to why you remember you went to do other duties. All you know is that you left the place and you came back, but you don't know what you did, you don't even know if you went to buy food, you don't even know if somebody else was with you or not, do you see my point? You don't remember what you did, so how can you be so sure you went to go and do other duties? That's the point I'm trying to understand. If you simply said, "I left, I don't know what I did and I came back" that would be find, I would accept your evidence, in that sense is would make sense to me, but now you insist that you went to do other duties and you can't explain what you did or give me a reason how you know those were other duties. Do you see my point?

MR DU PREEZ: I understand.

MR LAX: ...maybe.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically what I went to do.

CHAIRPERSON: You might have gone home to your family.

MR DU PREEZ: With me it was an assumption that I went to do other things.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. My experience of the military is that the lower ranking persons are sent to do the menial tasks like collecting food and the commissioned officers, as you are, are to do the serious work. Isn't that usually the case?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So were you frequently asked to go and get food? I think you were a Lieutenant in those days?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. There were not specific duties for specific persons and I did not regard it as inferior to go out to buy food or to perform any other duty.

MR WILLS: Now, you say it was dusk at the time you arrested the deceased? Then it would take, I would estimate, knowing where Winkelspruit is, probably half an hour to drive - was it dark when you arrived? We're looking at winter time, autumn/winter?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I recall that it was already far into dusk, or almost dark when we arrived at the place.

MR WILLS: Are you able to give a time? 6 o'clock, or 7 o'clock, or anything like that?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: How long were you away before you returned? How many hours, minutes, seconds?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't know, I cannot give you an exact time.

MR WILLS: Are you able to say whether it was more than an hour, or less than an hour?

MR DU PREEZ: I really cannot tell you.

MR WILLS: Now when you arrived there, who put the deceased into the torture chamber?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, who said it was a torture chamber?

CHAIRPERSON: It hasn't been referred to as a torture chamber, but I think it was referred to as a room or a storeroom.

MR WILLS: Possibly I can use the word interrogation, if that makes my learned friend feel more comfortable?

MR VISSER: The evidence was it was a storeroom into which she was taken, Mr Chairman, that was the evidence.

MR WILLS: The evidence is also it's a place where she was severely beaten and she died in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well, let's just refer to it as a room, I think and we'll all understand that.

MR WILLS: Who placed Ms Khubeka in the room where she subsequently died?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson. I delivered Khubeka to Taylor and Botha was also present.

MR WILLS: ...remember how, if she was assisted to get out the car, or anything along that nature, out of the bus, sorry, the panel van?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot specifically recall that she was assisted, but she was blindfolded and she would have been picked up and brought out.

MR WILLS: You didn't do that?

MR DU PREEZ: I may have assisted with that.

MR WILLS: When you got back, you say, your evidence is seemingly not certain, you're not sure whether it was Taylor or Botha who informed you that she died.

MR DU PREEZ: It was Botha who told me that she had died.

MR WILLS: And what exactly did he say to you, to the best of your recollection?

MR DU PREEZ: He told me that Khubeka had died of a heart attack, or that she had had a heart attack and died.

MR WILLS: Did he tell you how long ago this had occurred?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you get an impression that it was just immediately before you arrived, or she'd been lying there dead for some hours, or minutes?

MR DU PREEZ: I did not formulate an opinion about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go and take a look at the body that is prior to the time that you say after you had waited and loaded it into the Skyline, did you go and take a look at it?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I didn't go. I went into the room to fetch her when we loaded her into the vehicle to go and drop her off.

MR WILLS: I assume when you went into the room to collect her, you would have switched on a light in that room, her body that is?

MR DU PREEZ: There was a light in that room.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did you switch it on when you went to fetch the body?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that. I cannot recall whether the light was on, or whether I switched it on.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can recall that it was on then, the light was on?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. I saw the person lying there.

MR WILLS: Whereabouts was the deceased lying in the room?

MR DU PREEZ: She lay in the room. I cannot say precisely what her position was, but when I entered the room she lay on her back in the room.

MR WILLS: She was lying on her back?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he said. She was lying on her back.

MR WILLS: Are you certain about that?

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall.

MR WILLS: And you went in with your colleague, I think it's Wasserman.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And how did you pick her up and put her into the boot of the Skyline?

MR DU PREEZ: Wasserman and I picked her up by her arms and also by her feet and then put her into the boot of the car.

MR WILLS: Who picked up her arms?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot say for certain.

MR WILLS: Did you notice anything in the room at the time you picked her up? Anything unusual?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as far as I can recall the room was empty, there wasn't anything else in the room.

CHAIRPERSON: When you're saying empty, there was no furniture even, it was just four walls and a floor?

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall. I cannot recall whether this was on that day or at a later stage, there were

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon Chairperson, I couldn't hear the witness when he states what was in the room?

MR DU PREEZ: There were shooting targets in the room.

MR WILLS: Was there urine on the floor?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as far as I can recall it was wet, the body of the deceased was wet and I also believe that water had been poured on her, because there was water on the floor.

MR WILLS: Was there blood on the floor?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why are you so sure of that?

MR DU PREEZ: Because I would have seen blood if there had been blood.

MR WILLS: Would have you seen marks on her body?

MR DU PREEZ: I did not disrobe her, she was clothed.

MR WILLS: Can you remember what clothes were there?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: Can you remember if it was a jersey?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: One would imagine that had she been beaten as described by the previous witness, that she'd have marks on her arms and her back. Not so?

MR DU PREEZ: I didn't notice that. I didn't see any marks which fixed my attention on the fact that she had been assaulted or struck.

MR WILLS: Yes, but what I'm trying to suggest is that you would have noticed if she had bare arms and there were marks on her arms, you would have noticed them.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson. Dark person's would not mark the same way that lighter persons would. I cannot recall that I saw any marks on her and I did not inspect her specifically for any marks.

MR WILLS: If her arms were bare and there were bruises on her arms from a sjambok, is it likely that in the circumstances of you picking her up that you would have noticed those bruises?

MR DU PREEZ: She was hit hard on numerous occasions with a sjambok and the evidence is that she tried to fend off the blows with her arms. What I'm suggesting is that you would have noticed it, had her arms been bare.

CHAIRPERSON: I think perhaps maybe wheel marks, because I don't know how long it takes a bruise to form and I don't know if a bruise can form after a person has died, but perhaps if you could ask about wheel marks.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not see any of those marks.

MR WILLS: My point is slightly different. You see, the evidence is that she was wearing a long-sleeved sweater and what I'm trying to get out of you is that had she been, had she not, sorry let me rephrase completely. Our evidence will be that at the time she was wearing a long-sleeved sweater and I'm suggesting to you that had she been wearing a garment that didn't cover her arms, and had she been assaulted in the manner that has been previously described, you as an experienced policeman would have noticed bruises on her arms, so the implication is that the possibilities are good that she'd been wearing something that covered those marks?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot remember anything like that, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, did you clean up the room afterwards?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Singular, now or in the plural again?

MR WILLS: Thank you. Were you involved personally in the clean-up of the room?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Do you know who was?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: When you got back in the morning at sunset, did you never establish that or were you never tasked to do that?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that I went back to that room.

MR WILLS: Was there a domestic servant employed there at any stage?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So one of the persons present would have obviously had to do some cleaning up, even if it's just to wipe up the urine and the water?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct Chairperson, but I was not involved in that.

MR WILLS: Who do you think would have been involved in that, with your knowledge of the operation?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't know, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Was this not a menial task left to askaris?

MR DU PREEZ: I would not be able to say, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you do a thorough inspection of the room when you were removing the body?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, my attention was drawn to the body when I went into the room.

MR WILLS: So there is a possibility that other objects might have been in the room which escaped your attention?

MR DU PREEZ: It's possible, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you describe, your evidence to this effect confused me. Can you describe to the best of your recollection exactly what order you received after being involved in the discussion with Col Taylor and Mr Botha as regards disposing of the body?

MR DU PREEZ: What discussion followed?

MR WILLS: No, what order you received. I think it's common cause that you received an order to dispose of the body. I'm wanting to know exactly what the content of that order was.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the instruction was that we would dispose of the body in a place close to her home.

MR WILLS: So why did you choose the place where you dumped the body?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was an open field. It was a quiet place, there were no houses in the vicinity, so the possibility of us being seen was remote.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez, were you told why it should be, or did you know why it should be close to the home? Were you told to hide the body that it never be found again, or was there anything, any instruction given to you in any more detail other than, dispose of the body near the home?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, it was said we have to drop her off at a point where people would find her, where she would be found and she could be identified.

MR WILLS: So why did you drop her off in a quiet place?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that is a place where many taxis pass during the day so at that time during the night it was a quiet place, but during the day it's a very busy place.

MR WILLS: Would you be able to point out to us exactly where this place is today?

MR DU PREEZ: I would be able to.

MR WILLS: Now, I'm sure Mr Visser will correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that Wasserman was involved in the interrogation, do you recall the evidence whilst you've been listening here?

MR DU PREEZ: I saw by means of the statements that Wasserman was involved in the interrogation.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, yes, he was present during the interrogation.

MR WILLS: Now no doubt as you were surprised that this death had occurred, you would have discussed the circumstances surrounding this death when you were driving with him to dispose of the body. I want to know what was said then.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, Capt Botha had already informed me that the person had died of a heart attack.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, when you and Mr Wasserman were now driving off with the body, did you not discuss the circumstances of the death, didn't you say "What did you see? What happened?" Wouldn't it have been a natural thing for you to have talked about?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that we discussed it, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Surely you would have been a little bit curious to know how it was that she came to have a heart attack? It's one thing to be told yes, she had a heart attack, but surely your curiosity would have at least piqued some discussion.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall at all that Wasserman told me anything about the assault. I heard about the assault only afterwards.

MR LAX: I'm not asking you about the assault. I'm not saying anything about assault. I'm saying surely your inquisitiveness, your curiosity, just as an ordinary person, would have been, how did this woman come to have a heart attack? And if you knew that Mr Wasserman was present, as you would have known at the time, you would have said to him , "Well Lawrie tell me what happened, this is a bizarre situation."

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, they had already told me how the heart attack had taken place.

MR LAX: So you already knew all that.

MR DU PREEZ: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Did you and Wasserman talk about anything in the car?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I think we discussed or where we spoke about where we would dispose of the body and we drove looking for a suitable place.

MR WILLS: And who decided amongst you, where the body would be disposed?

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall Chairperson, we drove in the direction of kwaMashu and we passed kwaMashu and we said, I cannot recall whether Wasserman or I decided, but we decided that this was as good a place as any and we will drop it off there.

MR WILLS: And tell me, how did you get the body out of the car, in detail?

MR DU PREEZ: We pulled the vehicle off the road and we waited to see if everything was quiet and whether there were any persons walking around on the road or whether vehicles were approaching and then we took her out of the boot and carried her for about 10 metres into the field.

MR WILLS: Was the car on the side of the road or was the car partially in the bush?

MR DU PREEZ: It was off the road completely.

MR WILLS: And how did you carry the deceased?

MR DU PREEZ: We used the same method, under her arms and by her feet and carried her.

MR WILLS: You can't remember whether you were carrying her legs?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Do you remember if she had shoes on?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, I assume she was fully clothed.

MR WILLS: Did you notice whether or not she had a ring?

MR DU PREEZ: I didn't see that Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you notice whether or not she had panties on?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: When you drove back, what did you talk about in the car?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you sleep at the shooting range that night?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, I think we only returned early the next morning.

MR LAX: So where did you go to in the intervening period?

MR DU PREEZ: I think we spent the evening at our homes.

MR LAX: So after dumping the body off, what did you then do and what did Wasserman then do? Who dropped who off? Where?

MR DU PREEZ: I think Wasserman dropped me at my home and then he left and then he picked me up the following morning and we went back to the shooting range.

ADV BOSMAN: You said that it was your vehicle. Was it the usual that you exchange the car?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: When you were dumping this body what was going through your mind? Didn't you think you were doing something wrong?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was a very unpleasant task.

MR WILLS: Did you feel any sympathy for the deceased?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, why was it to the best of your recollection, why was it decided that the deceased's body should be dumped close to her home? You said you were part of - you didn't participate in the discussion, but you were present when Botha and Taylor were deciding what to do with the body.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson. It was their decision.

MR WILLS: Yes, but why? What was the reasoning? I'm wanting to know, you heard that discussion.

MR DU PREEZ: So that her body could be found.

MR WILLS: Why was that necessary?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we couldn't anything with the body.

MR WILLS: No, but why didn't you just dump it somewhere else? I mean there must have been some purpose for dumping it close to her home as opposed to just dumping it in the Tugela River, or dumping it in the Umzimkulu River, I'm wanting to know what the reason was.

CHAIRPERSON: Or seeing that the cause of death was a heart attack, leaving it on a park bench somewhere?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that was Botha and Taylor's decision.

MR WILLS: Look, I'm asking you, with respect Mr du Preez, you said and your evidence was that there was this discussion that went on between Botha and Taylor and you were present while this discussion was going on, I'm asking you what were the reasons for that discussion? Why was it decided that she was dumped in this particular way?

MR DU PREEZ: The idea was that she would be found and that the family would identify her and that she would have a normal burial.

MR WILLS: So you're wanting us to believe that the purpose was so that her family would know that she was dead?

MR DU PREEZ: So that she would be found and she would be identified by people in her area.

MR WILLS: But I can't understand because that seems out of sync with the other matters that I've been involved in here in the sense that why was it necessary that you wanted the family to know about her death?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as I've already said it was Botha and Taylor's decision. I cannot help if it is out of sync with any other things that had taken place.

MR WILLS: You see, it would seem to me that in line with your intention to distance yourselves from her arrest in any way, that it would be a safer option to dispose of the body in such a way that nobody would ever identify her and that it would be better for example that the story that she had gone to Mozambique would be the one that was circulating because then your operation wouldn't stand any chance of being compromised, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I think it was brought about by the fact that she had died of natural causes.

MR WILLS: No, with respect, that doesn't gel. It is clear that had her body been found, the wounds from her assault would have been apparent to anybody doing an immediate inspection, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: Most probably sjambok bruises would be found on her but it would not have caused the death of her.

MR WILLS: No, I know that. But had a pathologist or a district surgeon found that she'd been sjamboked, that would have raised suspicion, it wouldn't have appeared to him that she had died of natural causes, it would have looked as if she'd been beaten to death. Maybe a murder docket might have been opened.

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well, it's more likely, with respect, but anyway, I put it to you that you are lying when you say that you wanted to dump the body in such a way that she'd be recognised, or that it would be found out by her family that she had died.

MR DU PREEZ: That isn't so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that you intended to arrest her on that day, that you intended to torture her and to get information out of her and whether or not she died, was irrelevant to you.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that her death was expected by you and all the others there and that this would fit in nicely to cover up your operation so it wasn't exposed.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, it was not so.

MR WILLS: And I put it to you that despite the fact that you have an obligation, if you want amnesty, to come and tell the truth and to disclose everything here, that you have not done so.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I have told the truth.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Ms Thabethe any questions?

MS THABETHE: No questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any re-examination?

MR VISSER: Just one question, Chairperson

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Approximately how far, or first of all, do you know where Mrs Khubeka lived before her death?

MR DU PREEZ: She lived in G Section.

MR VISSER: I ask, do you know where her house was?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And from her house to the place where you left her as the crow flies, would you estimate a distance?

MR DU PREEZ: I would say two to three kilometres. Three kilometres, yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Adv Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, there are two statements in your statement which are contradictory to me. It may have been cleared up and your legal representative must point that out to me but you see, you refer in paragraph 7 that an appointment was made on a day that the leader of the group of terrorists whom Khubeka was housing was to be arrested and the later you say, let me just find the correct paragraph, paragraph 9, towards the end: "We arrested her" and then in paragraph 17, the second line, let me read the whole line to you:

Do you see that? Do you agree with me that it would seem contradictory?

MR DU PREEZ: It is contradictory, Chairperson and this was said afterwards because we knew that she was arrested.

ADV BOSMAN: But when did you receive the instruction to abduct her, because there you specifically refer to the instruction to abduct her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, after her arrest she was necessarily abducted, or she was taken to the area and I see that as an abduction.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, I'm interrupting you, but maybe it's, on paragraph 17 I think, while Maj du Preez was giving evidence, it was amended to read "instructions from Colonels Botha and Taylor", I got that added in on my copy, I don't know. Carry on.

ADV BOSMAN: No, my problem is the "opdrag om te ontvoer".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because I got the impression that the "opdrag te ontvoer" came at the scene, at Battery Beach after the arrest from Botha but it's Taylor and Botha.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words at some stage you said that you expected her, possibly for her to be there, there was a possibility, so were you under the impression that this was to be a lawful arrest, but then afterwards you found out that your instruction was to abduct her? I want to get clarity about this, I do not want to trap you.

MR DU PREEZ: That is so Chairperson, that afterwards I saw that it was an unlawful arrest.

ADV BOSMAN: And then Mr du Preez, the interrogation of women, did this, was this executed differently to the interrogation of men and I speak of interrogation where violence or coercion was used.

MR DU PREEZ: Not necessarily Chairperson, where terrorists were involved, women were not treated any different.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't refer to preference, but wouldn't you use another version of another form of violence, because a woman is physically weaker. The reason why I asked this is because in a number of matters where I have listened to evidence, I have never before heard of the sjambok method in evidence. To me it is somewhat strange that a sjambok was used here.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, for me too. I have never been present where a person was assaulted with a sjambok while the person was interrogated.

ADV BOSMAN: Did anybody make a remark about this while you are saying that, while you are conceding that it is strange?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, nobody told me anything about this.

ADV BOSMAN: And you also don't know whose sjambok it was?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Then the disposal of the corpse. I cannot recall that you testified whether there was a specific reason given to you why you had to dispose of the body in the circumstances where somebody had died of natural causes. My impression was, from your evidence, was that you accepted that you had to dispose of the body and that you had just drawn inferences as to where you had to drop off the body. I want to just ascertain, did anybody state a reason to you why you had to dispose of the body and who?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, from Botha and Taylor's discussion, I drew the inference that the person had to be left there so that she could be found.

ADV BOSMAN: You have been asked as to why the idea was that she was supposed to be found. If she was found shortly after the body was disposed of there, would it have come to your knowledge?

MR DU PREEZ: Not automatically Chairperson. I never inquired about it.

ADV BOSMAN: That is what is somewhat strange to me, that some people would, that one would expect that if a person, if a body is disposed of and dropped off somewhere and it was found and you never hear that the body was found and one would want to ascertain if the information didn't come about and one would do some research. Why was no research or inquiries ever made?

MR DU PREEZ: It might have pointed fingers to us, Chairperson, if we went and inquired at the police station and then persons would ask, "Why are you inquiring?".

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, I think that would be the obvious answer, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR LAX: Thanks Chair. If I could just immediately follow up on what Adv Bosman's put. Is it not so that you could have asked questions in a way that didn't point fingers at you at all? If, for example, a known terrorist co-ordinator's gone missing, you're looking for her.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, there were possible methods, but we did not do it.

MR LAX: You could also have, through your informer network, asked questions. You didn't do that either?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson. An informant would have created the idea that I had killed the person.

MR LAX: Why would it do that? You already had informers who were telling you about her activities. If she suddenly went missing, the most logical thing to do and for them to assume, would be to say "Where's this woman disappeared to?" Why would that point to you killing her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I know that Capt Botha gave the askaris instructions to do some inquiries. I don't know specifically what the inquiries were that they did, but I know that they inquired afterwards.

ADV BOSMAN: I have to interrupt my colleague, somewhat. Did you have access to the registers in the mortuary, for example, in the state mortuary?

MR DU PREEZ: I could have gone there and inquired there.

ADV BOSMAN: You would not necessarily inquire there, you would have consulted the registers, wouldn't you?

MR DU PREEZ: A person at the state mortuary would have asked me what was the reason for my visit.

MR LAX: With respect, Lieutenant, sorry Major, if a Lieutenant arrives at the mortuary asking just to look at the registers, you could have given anybody any reason under the son, to just check through the mortuary's registers. It wouldn't really have pointed in any way at you. You're looking for missing suspects, you're looking for missing informers. You're looking for all sorts of possibilities. Surely that's ...

MR DU PREEZ: That is true Chairperson, but I did not do it and this unfortunate incident was placed behind me.

MR LAX: You see, that's the answer that I would have expected from you. The one you've just given is the one I would have thought the most likely answer. You put this thing behind you, you didn't think about it again. You weren't worried about anyone pointing - any fingers pointing in your direction at all. The fact of the matter is, you didn't think about it again, you put it behind you.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now, the place where you dropped the body off, where you off loaded the body, you've said to us that it was a busy place during the day. There were taxis there and there were other ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was on a taxi route. I didn't get the impression that it was a taxi rank, yes.

MR LAX: I'm just trying to understand what you mean by it.

MR DU PREEZ: It was the Inanda highway.

MR LAX: Capt Botha gave us to understand that there were people that walked past this spot, or maybe you did, maybe I'm getting confused.

MR DU PREEZ: During the day, yes.

MR LAX: And where would these people be walking to or from as a matter of course?

MR DU PREEZ: From Inanda in the direction of the city or to kwaMashu.

MR LAX: Of from Ghandi Settlement or from all the other places round there?

MR DU PREEZ: Correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So it wasn't an isolated spot?

MR DU PREEZ: No, it was not.

MR LAX: Because you were asked a question whether there were any buildings around there and you said no, there were no buildings in that vicinity.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Were there not shacks and things in that vicinity, in the area, or within reasonable close distance of that area?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, in later years it was built, but at that stage it was an open field.

MR LAX: Now ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Lax, while you're just on that. Could you give an approximation about how far the nearest building was from the place where the body was dumped. Are we talking a matter of 10 metres or half a kilometre, what ...(indistinct - talking simultaneously)

MR DU PREEZ: I would say 300 or 400 metres.

MR LAX: One thing puzzles me here about the arrest of this lady and at the point which you people arrested her at Battery Beach, did you, you didn't give the impression that you were arresting Mbane or any of the others who were with her?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, not that I can recall.

MR LAX: Why not?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the manner in which she was taken, she would also not have known what was going on. I cannot recall that we tried to create the impression that we also arrested them. This person was arrested in such a manner that she must have been, or she was only aware of her own arrest.

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect, if the others were not arrested contemporaneously, or at least an effort made to give that impression, she would immediately know that she had been sold out by them, or that they were participating in her abduction or her arrest. That's pretty obvious, isn't it.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not think that. She may have possibly thought that. My opinion was not that she would know.

MR LAX: The reason I ask this question is that in the Ndaba matter where a similar situation happened, you were at pains in that matter to try and give the impression that Ndaba was being arrested as well. It just doesn't make sense to me that you would risk your own operative in that way.

ADV BOSMAN: In this specific instance you have already said there was suspicion that she was being sold out.

MR DU PREEZ: That the manner in which we arrested her, she would not have necessarily known that Mbane was not being arrested.

MR LAX: Now, I'm still not clear. I asked Botha this yesterday and I'm going to ask this of you today and the impression I got from him yesterday was that you helped get her out of the car but on your version you clearly didn't. How did - because you only grabbed her once she was out the car, how did she, who got her out of the car?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson. I recall that I grabbed her when she was outside the car.

MR LAX: So you don't know if Radebe or Mbane or somebody else forced her out of the car?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you don't know if she struggled in the car, till somebody managed to get her out of the car?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see, because the impression I got of your earlier evidence was that she did struggle earlier but not after you'd got hold of her and put her in the car. That's how the wording came about. That was the impression that was created from your answer, because there was no struggle after that point, but there was a struggle before. That was the impression I got.

MR DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I'll be quick, I'm nearly finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Just perhaps while you're considering if I could just ask, did Ms Khubeka have any personal belongings other than the clothing she was wearing, a purse, a handbag, moon bag, whatever?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall anything like that, Chairperson, that she had a bag with her. My recollection is that she didn't have anything with her.

CHAIRPERSON: The place where the body was dumped, you said it was in an open field, was there long grass there?

MR DU PREEZ: There was grass.

CHAIRPERSON: But not like a soccer field, but long grass. What I want to know, if somebody was driving past during the day, would they see the body lying in the grass or would it be obscured because the grass was too long?

MR DU PREEZ: One would not be able to see it just from the road, one would have to go into the field to see it. The grass was long.

CHAIRPERSON: And the place where the body was, the ground, was it flat or was there ditches there, holes?

MR DU PREEZ: It was flat, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Sorry, Chair, you've covered the aspect I was going to, that was to do with any of her possessions. Just- you don't know whether any of her possessions remained in the vehicle, the Corolla?

MR DU PREEZ: It's possible, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Visser, do you have any questions arising?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, sorry there's one small issue that doesn't arise from your questioning that I forgot to ask. I'll be very quick.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Sorry, you described the size of the deceased as being large. As regards her height, what would you estimate her height to be? Was she short?

MR DU PREEZ: I think she was of average height.

MR WILLS: Well, can I just ask Ms Masetla to stand up please? Now, can you estimate her height in relation to Ms Masetla? Is she a similar size? Our evidence is to the effect that she was a similar height, specifically height, to Ms Masetla, Mrs Masetla, sorry.

MR DU PREEZ: It's possible, Chairperson. The impression that I had was that she was a very large woman and she was very heavy. Her height, I would say approximately the same height or maybe taller.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mrs Masetla. The evidence of the family will be that she was a particularly short woman of similar height to Mrs Masetla, although she was quite large. Thank you.

MR VISSER: Can we now know how tall Ms Masetla is, otherwise the whole exercise is meaningless.

CHAIRPERSON: I was going to ask, does Mrs Masetla have any idea as to what her own height is?

MR WILLS: 1.58 seems to be coming from the gallery.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that right, Mrs Masetla? 1.58 you would agree with? Yes. Mr Visser do you have any questions arising?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman. Perhaps we can ascertain the exact length of Mrs Masetla.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Nel,

MR NEL: I have no questions, Mr chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Botha?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: I see it's now lunch time, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think if we could just finish questions arising, it shouldn't take too long. It's only on matters arising and then we'll take the lunch adjournment, instead of ...

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. There was just something that I didn't put to this witness.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Major, according to Mr Mbane, when the body was removed from the room, Mr Myeza also assisted in removing that body. Do you recall that?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Now on a question from Adv Bosman very early in your cross-examination, she asked you whether you knew that Ms Khubeka was becoming suspicious and your response was that you cannot recall. Do you remember that? Do you remember your response to that question?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall my answer but I did not question the people, I did not question Mbane and the others. What I heard, from what they reported to Botha, I heard from Botha and I may just add that I cannot recall that it was specifically said that she had become suspicious.

MR SAMUEL: Is it possible then Sir that this information was passed to Mr Botha and you don't recall it? It's not that it never occurred?

MR DU PREEZ: It's possible.

MR SAMUEL: A question was put to Mr Botha and I'd like to put this same question to you. What would have happened if Ms Khubeka did not co-operate with you all and if she had not suffered a heart attack, an alleged heart attack, what would you all have done to her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she would probably have been detained to question her.

MR SAMUEL: Yes, you finished questioning her, she hasn't co-operated at all, what would have happened to her?

MR DU PREEZ: She would have been detained.

MR SAMUEL: Indefinitely?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson. There were sections for such cases, Section 29.

MR SAMUEL: So you would have used Section 29, despite the fact that she knew the askaris now? She knew that she'd been sold out. She knew that she was abducted and she also knew your secret hide-out, are you saying that you would have just invoked Section 29 in detaining her?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a possibility. It was also a possibility of releasing her.

MR SAMUEL: Did you go to Ms Khubeka's house at any stage prior to this?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the questions arising, or what, Mr Samuel? You've been given an opportunity to cross-examine?

MR SAMUEL: Sorry, this question did arise, it's a question arising from cross-examination. Did you go to her house? You told us you knew the address in the section where she lived in.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR SAMUEL: Did you go to her house?

MR DU PREEZ: Before or after the time?

MR SAMUEL: Before this. Before the incident.

MR DU PREEZ: Before this incident I was at her house, yes.

MR SAMUEL: And would I be correct in saying that you knew that the place where you disposed of the body, was far away from her house where people would not have recognised her. Is that correct?

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I have no further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Preez, that concludes your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now take the lunch adjournment and resume at say 2 o'clock.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, before this witness is released, I'd like to at least take the opportunity of arranging with my learned friend that he, after hours possibly, takes us to the scene where the body was dumped.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could, perhaps during the lunch interval, speak with Mr Wagener or Mr Visser in this regard.

MR VISSER: And I'm sure at the same time my learned friend will hand us some photographs which we've been after.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and I don't know if there is going to be an inspection. If it is, then maybe also the shooting range might be worthwhile visiting.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm not certain to what end all these inspections in loco are necessary but if they are one would imagine that the Committee would have to go along as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is what I was thinking, that's why I was saying, if you're discussing it, if there is going to be one, also include the shooting range. We'll take the lunch adjournment now until 2 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an opportunity to discuss the possibility of going off on an inspection?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Firstly on the photographs, I just want to place on record that the family have no problem in handing over photographs. The problem being is that the family homes are no longer in the kwaZulu Natal area and the family is employed in Pretoria and obviously Mr Khubeka is in Denmark, but we will endeavour to get those photographs as soon as possible and hand them over. We have no objection to do that. I have discussed with Mr Wagener the types of photographs he wants and we'll try and oblige in that regard.

As regards inspection, I think we've agreed that it's necessary. I think most parties around the table are in agreement with that. It's the timing that hasn't been resolved. We are of the view and when I say "we", myself and Mr Samuel are of the view that it would be better served if we did the inspection sooner rather than later in order that that would assist us in our cross-examination of the future witnesses. Also, it's my experience that the inspection is usually done at the beginning of trials fro that specific purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Also, listening to the weather forecast last night, it seems that we might be getting rain in the not too distant future.

MR WILLS: I'm pleased to hear that. Mr Visser however is that he'd rather have his witnesses led and completed prior to us doing this inspection. Unfortunately we can't come to an agreement on that and so we leave that in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, two considerations. Well the first point is, I'm not entirely convinced in my own mind as far as that might be worth anything, that an inspection is essential, either of the one or the other spot, but by the same token, we have no objection. But Mr Chairman, there are two considerations why we would submit that the evidence should be heard before we go off on an inspection. The first is, it is not critical at this stage for the inspection to be held, as my learned friend has pointed out, for the trial to proceed smoothly and we believe it's proper, Mr Chairman, that an applicant should give his evidence first and that thereafter an inspection be held, so that his evidence can in that sense be tested. Mr Chairman, secondly, the applicants are here in their own interest, we are fully aware of that, but there are some of my applicants who are working for themselves. Mr van der Westhuizen is a contractor who is working in the Transkei, making roads, and in Dundee and Newcastle and he looses a lot of money by being here, so does Mr Botha and we would prefer to deal with the next two witnesses and thereafter Mr Chairman, we would be entirely in your hands as to when and how and if, you wish to conduct an inspection in loco. Those are our views.

CHAIRPERSON: Our view is - I think we would agree that an inspection in loco is not essential in the sense that if we didn't have one, we couldn't arrive at a decision in this matter, but I think it would be helpful to have one. Sorry Mr Visser, if we went on an inspection, wouldn't it be advisable that the applicants are also there?

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly. but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So this question about the timing is not all that important because whether it's now or later they'll be there to either agree or disagree on what is said.

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, if I may reply in this way - if the inspection is only going to take place next week, then I'm going to ask for some of the witnesses, of the applicants to be excused. I'm hoping that we can finish the last two witnesses and do this inspection this week still, Mr Chairman, but I don't want to, with respect, run the risk of the matter going over until a later date and one or more of the two witnesses not having given their evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, also another point raised in my brief discussion with my colleagues is...(end of tape) cut down on unnecessary questions regarding the locations.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I will leave the decision in your able hands.

CHAIRPERSON: And also another thing Mr Visser, I think we would be extremely fortunate if this matter finishes this week it would seem.

MR VISSER: We'll never finish this week.

CHAIRPERSON: This is what I'm saying. We won't in any event finish this week. I don't think there's any realistic prospect of that. We would prefer it if it was sooner rather than later. We don't want to be obstructive or anything of that nature, but I don't think the inspection will take too long. What about this afternoon?

MR VISSER: If you want to leave right now, Mr Chairman, we'll leave with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know how we're going to handle it logistically. I've got no idea which roads to take etc and whether we're going to go in different - how we're going to go, but perhaps it might be an idea to, before we start the next witness, to do it. We'll then take an adjournment and the go and do this inspection. I don't know if - we'll see how long it takes and we might have time to come back here and you say we won't - yes the trouble is it's in two different directions. Yes, perhaps then if we can adjourn and then just make arrangements on who's going and how. Yes, we had a brief meeting now. You will recall that I said we are now going off on an inspection in loco. We have, however been informed by the Commission, one of the Commission's logistics officers that it wouldn't be possible to have a proper inspection in loco at this time. They need a bit of time to prepare for it, you need batteries fro the cameras, transportation etc and after discussing the matter, it's been agreed that what we will do is we will meet here at half past 8 tomorrow morning and then we will proceed in the first instance to the shooting range in the Winkelspruit area and from there we'll then proceed to that Inanda road area that's been referred to. And also I've been informed that there will be a kombi available as well for any person who, member of the family, who wishes to come along. So we can then at this stage proceed with the evidence of the next witness.

MR VISSER: That will be Mr Lawrence Gerald Wasserman, Mr Chairman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR VISSER: His statement of evidence is before you. Exhibit F is the next exhibit number.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Yes, it's E.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, you have given evidence before other Amnesty Committees before, is that correct?

MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Do you incorporate that evidence also in your evidence today as well as the contents of Exhibit A which you have previously confirmed as falling within your knowledge and that you wish to include in your evidence?

MR WASSERMAN: I do, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Your amnesty application here is referred to as the Ndaba bundle, it's a mistake on my part. It's the Khubeka bundle, which will be bundle 1, pages 54 to 65. So you confirm your application form and the contents thereof as well?

MR WASSERMAN: I do, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Please address the Committee and tell the Committee what you recall about what the facts are and your participation in this event, from page 2 paragraph 1 onwards.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, during 1987 I was a sergeant in the Security Branch, Port Natal, serving under the command of General Steyn. Col Taylor was at the time the senior officer in the Terrorist Unit and Col Botha was my immediate Commander.

During approximately May 1987, while a Vlakplaas unit was in Durban, penetration was done by members of Vlakplaas, i.e. Simon Radebe and two askaris, Jimmy Mbane and Dube.

MR VISSER: Mr Dube is since deceased, is that correct?

MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman. At the time the Security Branch of Port Natal possessed of information that Nthombi Khubeka was assisting trained terrorists. I was informed that Mbane had befriended her and that her mission, correction, that his mission was to establish where the terrorists were hiding and where their arms had been stored.

On a particular afternoon Mbane was supposed to have brought one or two, brought one or more of the terrorist to a pre-arranged spot where they would then be arrested. I did not attend the proposed arrest. As it turned out, I was told that there were no terrorists in the car with which Mbane arrived and that only Khubeka was then taken. She was transferred to the shooting range at Winkelspruit where we had a base and where the Vlakplaas unit was accommodated. There she was interrogated and assaulted, not seriously, by Col Taylor.

MR VISSER: Were you present during the interrogation and these assaults?

MR WASSERMAN: Some of them, yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: Can you just tell the Committee, were you present at all times since she arrived there, or what was the position?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I entered the room of interrogation periodically. I was present from time to time during the interrogation.

MR VISSER: Were you busy with other matters?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: Alright.

MR WASSERMAN: She was interrogated in order to find out the whereabouts of the terrorists which Mbane told us about. I was present from time to time during the interrogation which I estimate lasted for about an hour. I was informed by Col Taylor that Khubeka suddenly died during the interrogation, apparently of a heart attack. I was not present when this occurred.

Col Taylor then decided that her death must not be reported and du Preez and myself were ordered by him to dispose of the body at a place where it could be found.

MR VISSER: Mr du Preez gave evidence that there was a meeting where you and he were present and Mr Taylor and Mr Botha were there and some discussion took place between them, can you recall any such meeting?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, it was a very brief meeting, more of a directive and we were given that specific order.

MR VISSER: And you recall that Col Taylor gave the order?

MR WASSERMAN: Col Taylor gave the order himself.

MR VISSER: And what was the order?

MR WASSERMAN: The order was to dispose of the body nearby, near enough to the house where it could be found.

MR VISSER: Alright.

MR WASSERMAN: We then placed the body in a field near, next to the Inanda Road, in the area of Bambayi, that's where we left her. I am informed that it is now alleged that the body was found with a bullet hole in the head. I am certain that this is not the body or the remains of Nthombi Khubeka as I know that her body suffered no bullet wound.

In doing what I did, I executed my duties as a policeman the way I saw it as an obligation during the time of conflict and political violence. We were conditioned by speeches of politicians and directions by our senior officers to do everything in our power to confront the revolutionary onslaught at all costs. There were times when in terms of the prevailing legislation of the times, it was not possible to solve all the problems that came one's way. The present case is perhaps an example of such an instance.

If it had become public knowledge that Khubeka had died whilst being interrogated by the Security Police, it would have caused big embarrassment. I was of the bona fide belief that what I did in the present instance, in order to combat or derail the revolutionary onslaught and to protect the government and National Party and the S A P from political embarrassment, fell within my express or implied authority. I did not participate in the events for any personal gain or driven by personal spite or malice and I received no reward.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you request amnesty in the terms which will be addressed to the Committee in argument and which you've already set out at page 1, is that correct?

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Nel do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, just one please.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Mr Wasserman, Mr Mbane alleges in his statement which is also found in the bundle and I'm sure you've heard this, he alleges that the deceased's body was taken out of the room by one Myeza, yourself and a Coetzer. Now I represent also Mr Myeza, is this correct, or is that not correct?

MR WASSERMAN: That's incorrect, Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: Was he not there?

MR WASSERMAN: He was not present, Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Nel. Mr van der Merwe do you have any questions?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one or two.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Wasserman, can you confirm for me that Mr Baker's involvement, that he was not involved at all with this operation? he was never part of the operation as such that occurred on that specific day.

MR WASSERMAN: He was not involved in the operation to the best of my knowledge, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER MERWE: He was, however, present at the base where Nthombi Khubeka was interrogated.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, he was present.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Can you confirm for me that he was not part of the interrogation team?

MR WASSERMAN: He was not part of the interrogation team.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you very much. No further question.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Merwe. Ms Botha do you have any questions you would like to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BOTHA: Mr Wasserman, you were not present during the...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat what you said.

MS BOTHA: Mr Wasserman, you were not yourself involved in the arrest at Battery Beach? For which reason were you at Winkelspruit? Was there an instruction to be there, or were you just usually there?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I was instructed that an operation was happening and the base for that operation was the Winkelspruit shooting range and my unit was involved so therefore I was on standby that side.

MS BOTHA: Did anybody give you a specific instruction to wait there?

MR WASSERMAN: My immediate Commander, Col Botha.

MS BOTHA: And during the course of the interrogation and afterwards, did you see Messrs Radebe, Mbane and Dube in the vicinity?

MR WASSERMAN: They were not in the interrogation room, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them in the vicinity at all at the base?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, they were in the vicinity of the base.

MS BOTHA: And at a stage when the body was removed, is it possible that they could have seen?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't know where they would have been at the time of the removal. It is possible, however I was of the opinion that we were doing it totally clandestinely.

MS BOTHA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Samuel do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Mr Wasserman, were you present at any meeting where Mr Mbane or Mr Radebe were given instructions to pick up Nthombi Khubeka?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Wasserman, I'm going to put Mr Mbane's version to you and you could tell this Commission whether you agree or disagree with it. He will tell this Commission, his evidence will be that on the day in question, when Mr Botha and the others came to pick up Nthombi Khubeka, you were also present at that arrest?

MR WASSERMAN: That's not so, Sir.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that he later met you all at Winkelspruit at the base.

MR WASSERMAN: I was at the base on his arrival there.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that on his arrival there, he found Nthombi Khubeka bound hand and feet and blindfolded.

MR WASSERMAN: I'm sorry, say that again.

MR SAMUEL: When he saw Ms Khubeka at Winkelspruit, he noticed that she was bound both hand and feet and blindfolded.

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, when I saw her at Winkelspruit in the interrogation room, storeroom, she was blindfolded.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her alighting from the vehicle which brought her to the shooting range?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Sir, I didn't. I didn't see her being taken from the vehicles into the storeroom.

CHAIRPERSON: The first time you saw her was in the storeroom?

MR WASSERMAN: I entered the storeroom once she was inside.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that both Simon Radebe himself and Mr Dube were also present at the shooting range on the day in question.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, they were there.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that after Ms Khubeka had died, you together with, you are known as Lawrie am I right?

MR WASSERMAN: It's Lawrie.

MR SAMUEL: He mentions Lawrie, Mr Myeza and Mr Coetzer were responsible for removing the body out of the room.

MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, neither Myeza nor Coetzer were involved in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was Mr Coetzer there?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't recall Coetzer being anywhere Sir, in my mind.

MR SAMUEL: He will also state that at the time when the body was removed from the room, the body was wrapped in a blanket.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no, du Preez and I took her in her clothing that she was in and placed her in the boot of the vehicle.

MR SAMUEL: Were you present at any stage when Mr Jimmy Mbane had handed two male persons, one by the name of Sbu from Lamontville, to yourselves?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I know nothing of that.

MR SAMUEL: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Samuel. Mr Wills, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Where were you, or shall I rather rephrase it, Mr Wasserman. When were you first told of the death of Ms Khubeka, I mean in relation to when it occurred?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure how long exactly in minutes afterwards, but I was outside and Mr Taylor came and informed me that she had died.

MR WILLS: If you were outside, were you immediately outside the door where this assault was going on?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I was more by the sleeping portion of the camp at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you believe that you would have been told within a matter of minutes of the death, or a substantial time thereafter? Did you get any idea?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I would imagine it would have been 5, 10 minutes or so afterwards, no longer than that.

MR WILLS: Surely this was quite a big crisis? You would have been told immediately?

MR WASSERMAN: I wasn't told immediately.

MR WILLS: Was, sorry who did you say told you?

MR WASSERMAN: Col Taylor came and informed me.

MR WILLS: Did he look worried?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, he did.

MR WILLS: How did you notice that?

MR WASSERMAN: It wasn't his usual composure. He said a mishap had occurred and Ms Khubeka had died.

MR WILLS: A mishap. were those his words?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't recall the full word, but it was, there was a problem. It was words to the effect of that..

MR WILLS: Of a mishap?

MR WASSERMAN: Or a problem.

MR WILLS: And what about Mr Botha, where was he?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't know where he was at that point in time, Sir.

MR WILLS: No doubt, human curiosity would have compelled you to go into the room to see what happened?

MR WASSERMAN: No, not at all.

MR WILLS: Why not?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't suffer from that form of human curiosities.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you in fact go into the room out of curiosity or not after you were told?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no I didn't. When I was informed that I am to assist in the removal of the body, I then went into the room.

MR WILLS: How long after you'd been told that she'd died was that?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'd estimate 30 minutes or so.

MR WILLS: I thought when you went to remove the body you'd waited for everyone to go to sleep. Did everyone go to sleep within ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said now Mr Wills, that: "I only went into the room after I was told to assist in the removal of the body", not at the actual removal of the body. That's my note in any event.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Is that indeed the case? You went in there, you must have gone in there twice then? Once when you were told about the removal of the body and then once when you actually removed the body?

MR WASSERMAN: When I was told to remove the body, I went in.

MR WILLS: So that was the first time and the only time you went into the room, when Ms Khubeka was dead? In other words once after her death you went in and for the purpose to remove the body?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I didn't go into the room otherwise.

MR WILLS: So then my question is correct, in that that would have been half an hour after you were told that she'd died? That's your evidence.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: So everyone went to sleep within half an hour of her dying?

MR WASSERMAN: I can't say if the other people were asleep. I went into the room within approximately 30 minutes or so afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we've received evidence that the removal of the body took place quite late because they waited for people to go to sleep and everything to be quiet and still and I certainly got the impression that there was quite a long period of time that elapsed before the body was actually taken out when every - when you and Mr du Preez at least thought everyone was asleep. that's the evidence that we've received. Are you disagreeing with that or?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, that is the correct evidence.

MR WILLS: From the time that Ms Khubeka arrived, I mean the evidence to my mind is that she, the interrogation commenced almost immediately on her arrival at the Winkelspruit base?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, that's so, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes and that was at dusk?

MR WASSERMAN: I think it was a little later than dusk, it was darkness now.

MR WILLS: Okay well, let's say a little bit later and you say the interrogation lasted for an hour?

MR WASSERMAN: Approximately an hour to my recollection.

MR WILLS: Yes and then half an hour later you were told to remove her body when everyone went to sleep?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman half an hour later after her death I knew I was to be involved in the removal of her body.

MR WILLS: that wasn't your evidence earlier. You said you went in about half an hour after you'd been told that she was dead.

MR WASSERMAN: Did I say that, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Correct me if I'm wrong. My impression Mr Wills was that he was told by Taylor five to ten minutes after the death, he estimate, about the death and then there was a discussion about the body, he said a very brief discussion, more in the form of a directive and then about 30 minutes after that he went into the room for the purposes of removing the body. I don't know if there is any time period, perhaps you can ask, between first being informed of the death and the decision, or him being informed about taking the body away.

MR WILLS: Yes, my understanding from your evidence is that you were told of the death within 5 to 10 minutes of it occurring?

MR WASSERMAN: I believe that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And then when were you told what to do with the body? How long after that were you told what to do with the body?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, approximately half an hour or so after that, I was informed that I would be required to assist in the disposal of the body.

MR WILLS: Yes and then half an hour later you went and you did that?

MR WASSERMAN: No, no, no, Mr Chairman, that's not correct.

MR WILLS: Well that's what you said, with respect.

MR WASSERMAN: Well then there was a bit of confusion between yourself and I, Sir.

MR WILLS: There's no confusion with me, that's what's on record.

MR WASSERMAN: Well, it's cleared up now is it not, Sir.

MR WILLS: Are you changing your version now?

MR WASSERMAN: What I've said now is the way I understand it now, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that you're changing your version because you realise the implication of my questioning is, if you only removed her body half and hour or an hour after, sorry I'll rephrase. If her body was removed in the time span that you indicated that it was, the interrogation process would have lasted a lot longer than an hour.

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman. I don't quite understand ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, yes.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry Mr Chairman. This witness has not spoken about removing the body. He said he got the order and he went into the room. That's as far as his evidence has gone, as I understood it. He hasn't given you any indication as to how long he remained in the room before the body was removed.

CHAIRPERSON: You see my note, and it might be wrong and we can always listen to the record, I only went into the room after I was told to assist in removing the body. Only went into the room to remove the body. That was after half an hour after being told to remove the body. That's my note.

MR VISSER: That's precisely correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: My point is, let me just put it to you. If the body, or if Ms Khubeka arrived alive at about dusk or just after dusk and if she was interrogated for an hour, we would say in winter that might bring us to half past 7. She was interrogated, then you were told about her death 10 minutes later, that takes us to quarter to 8, Then maybe half an hour later you were told to dispose of the body and then half an hour later you went in, that means before 9 o'clock at night you would have removed the body and everybody there would have been asleep.

MR WASSERMAN: I haven't said that at all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you remain in the room when you went to collect the body?

MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I went and saw the body. I went and saw Ms Khubeka dead then I left the room and we waited for everybody to eventually retire and what have you and then we removed the body properly.

MR WILLS: With respect Mr Wasserman, I asked you that question specifically, I said to you: "After the death of Ms Khubeka, how many times did you go into the room, once or twice?" and you said: "Once". Can you comment? are you changing your evidence now to say twice?

MR WASSERMAN: I'm not changing my evidence Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Well can you reconcile this? You either went in there once or twice. Can you tell us which one it is?

MR WASSERMAN: I went in to see when, about 30 minutes after - it was like this, Mr Chairman. After Mr Taylor told me I would be involved in the removal and the disposal of the body, I went in and I saw her lying there.

MR WILLS: Why did you go in and see her lying there? For what reason?

MR WASSERMAN: I had to go in and see, Mr Chairman, I'm about to be involved in the removal and the placement of her in a vehicle. I was already thinking of making plans of the job that I was now given.

MR WILLS: And was du Preez with you?

MR WASSERMAN: I can't recall du Preez being with me, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Was he back then?

MR WASSERMAN: I cannot recall if he was back yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, then proceed. You were saying what happened. So you went to look at the body and then?

MR WASSERMAN: Then I merely, I left the room and remained at the Winkelspruit camp with the other members until it was decided it was late enough and quiet enough to place the body of Ms Khubeka into the boot of du Preez's Nissan Skyline vehicle.

MR WILLS: Thank you, I just place on record that that's a different version, but be that as it may, I'll continue with something else. the length of the interrogation, you say in your statement it lasted about an hour, is that correct?

MR WASSERMAN: I recall approximately about an hour, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Could it have been longer?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't think so, Mr Chairman. I cannot be sure but an hour is approximate.

MR WILLS: You obviously applied your mind very seriously to this when you made this statement? It's a serious matter.

MR WASSERMAN: As much as I could recall, I placed before the Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes. So you would disagree with people who said that the interrogation lasted 15 to 30 minutes?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, I believe that that is too short a description for the time, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry, do you speak Zulu?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman

MR WILLS: Okay. I won't ask that question, you've assisted me. You went in and out the interrogation room?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: When you went in, how long, what periods did you stay in?

MR WASSERMAN: I can't recall Mr Chairman, 1 minute, 2, 3, 4, 5, it was a long time ago Mr Chairman, I didn't understand any of the contents of the questions, so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you participate in the questioning at all?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Can I just intervene, Mr Wills? Why did you go in and out then, if you weren't participating in the questioning?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman I thought perhaps there would be some translating going on, I would be able to catch up on a few things, but that didn't take part and it's a small room and I merely left, I had no active part to play in that at that stage.

MR LAX: So it's your evidence that you don't know what was going on in there in terms of what was being asked etc., you didn't follow it and you just went in and out?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't follow it but I did know that we would be pursuing the line of now that she had been picked up, it was for her to say where the combatants were and where the weaponry was.

MR LAX: Then just while I'm on this thing, did I understand you correctly that you were only in there for relatively short periods? 2,3 minutes, 4,5 minutes, nothing longer than that?

MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, no, nothing longer. I couldn't participate, I couldn't assist, so I had no place there.

MR LAX: Yes. Nobody explained to you what was going on?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, but I would have just waited and just had a brief from Col Taylor or Col Botha at a later stage. I was prepared to wait for that.

MR LAX: You see, Col Botha's evidence was that what the nature of the interrogation was, the answers were being given to him, he was asking for them. He was being kept up to date with what was being asked and the answers that were given. You don't recall that at all?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, perhaps he was dealing with Boshoff or van der Westhuizen, I don't know, but I wasn't expecting any English translations coming to me from any of the members.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Wasserman, you mention Boshoff, is it Basson or Boshoff?

MR WASSERMAN: No, it's Basson Sir.

MR LAX: Did you have a colleague called Boshoff who was working with you at that time?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, because both you and Mr du Preez have referred to a Boshoff. We're just interested, I'm interested.

MR WASSERMAN: It's Bossie, it's the nickname I think, it's both for Boshoff and ...

MR LAX: Yes, no he was Bossie Basson, I saw that in the papers.

MR WASSERMAN: That's the reason.

MR LAX: Okay, fair enough. So just to get back to the point I was on, you never heard anyone explaining anything to Capt Botha as he then was?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Sorry.

MR LAX: You see then I still don't understand why you went in and out. Surely after the first or second time it would have been apparent to you that you didn't know what was going on? Why keep going in and out?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, at any time maybe something important was said, then Taylor or, preferably Mr Taylor would have told me "right this is happening or that is happening." He would have, I knew how he worked, he would have maybe wanted me in to listen to some names here, some addresses so I kept on coming in and out but nothing was addressed to me during that period.

MR LAX: Surely he would have called you if he wanted you?

MR WASSERMAN: It was either/or, Mr Lax, he could have called me or I would have just gone in and out.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there any reason for you not to have stayed all the time, Mr Wasserman? Was there any reason why you couldn't just have stayed?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it was a small room, there were many people, there were quite a few people inside the room, I seem to recall and I initially stayed there. When I didn't understand much of what was going on, I would merely just leave.

ADV BOSMAN: And what did you do whenever you left? What did you then do outside?

MR WASSERMAN: No, I had nothing to do outside, Mr Chairman. I just would go and wait and let the operation progress.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry. We realise you may have had nothing to do, but what did you actually do? Did you wait outside? Did you go and sit down? Did you have a cup of coffee or did you just hang about?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, it wasn't long and I just hung about the sleeping and the tea area which is about 30/40 metres away.

MR LAX: Yes. It's just that you hung about for roughly an hour with a few going ins and outs. It's not exactly a short time.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, in this job you would hang about sometimes for a long time.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wills, I've intervened for quite a period now. I'm sorry.

MR WILLS: Mr Wasserman, didn't you leave because you were absolutely repulsed by what was going on in that room?

MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, that's not so.

MR WILLS: Weren't you?

MR WASSERMAN: No I was not.

MR WILLS: Weren't you repulsed by a woman being beaten with a sjambok?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't like it, however it was part and parcel of combating the military struggle that was going on at the time.

MR WILLS: Were you going in and out to get beers?

MR WASSERMAN: No, I was not Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Was there any drinking going on on the day in question?

MR WASSERMAN: There was no drinking going on there, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now, what did you actually see? Tell us what you saw. I know it's easy for you to say in your affidavit that you saw Taylor assaulting the deceased, but tell us what you saw with your own observation, forgetting about what's been said. What can you recall today what you actually saw?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Ms Khubeka was sitting on the floor.

MR WILLS: How was she sitting? Can you demonstrate to us?

MR WASSERMAN: She was sitting on her haunches, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Please can you demonstrate, I don't understand that. Would that be out of hand? I'd like to see this Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see if we can get away with a description first and if we've got a difficulty maybe we can ask somebody to demonstrate. Could you describe how she was sitting? You say on her haunches. I must say, I don't picture that clearly myself what sitting on the haunches is, but just explain.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman when I saw her she was sitting on her buttocks and her legs were straight out in front of her .

CHAIRPERSON: With her back at right angles. She was sitting upright with her legs stretched in front of her, toes pointing up?

MR WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that, you don't need a demonstration of that, Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No, that you, Mr Chairperson. Than you for clearing that up. And was she in this position on every occasion that you went in?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she was upright, in the upright position all the time, but I couldn't see her legs on every occasion.

MR WILLS: Where were they?

MR WASSERMAN: Sometimes I was at the door and the angle of sight would not allow me to see what was happening.

MR WILLS: Okay. Continue.

MR WASSERMAN: Questions were being put to her. The questions were all in Zulu and sometimes the voices were raised, sometimes the voices were quiet and Mr Taylor was beating her with a sjambok.

MR WILLS: How was he doing that?

MR WASSERMAN: Well, he was, he held the sjambok by the end and he was whipping her with the sjambok.

MR WILLS: You see, Mr Botha wasn't 100% sure on how this assault took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Wills, if I could just. Ms Cloete could you - I'm running out of paper here, I need a pad. Thank you. Sorry Mr Wills, you can continue. I just wanted to catch her eye while she was here.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. You see Mr Botha wasn't sure whether, when an answer to a question was given, she'd be struck on two or three occasions or just once at a time. Can you throw any light on that as far as your recollection goes? Sorry, my learned friends are objection. My understanding from the evidence of Mr Botha was that he wasn't exactly sure as to whether or not she was struck once on each occasion and then there was a pause, or whether or not she was struck more than once and then there was a pause. That's what I'm asking you to throw light on.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can just tell us what you saw.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, yes, I saw more than once the lashing.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wills is asking is, when the lashing took place would it be one stroke or would there be more than one stroke in quick succession, that you saw?

MR WASSERMAN: I saw both of those activities.

MR WILLS: So are you able to give us an estimate on the times that you were in the room, how many times she was struck? Is it 10 time, 20, 30?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no, I cannot recall. Probably a dozen, a dozen or 15.

MR WILLS: And is it your evidence that in the main you were not in the room?

MR WASSERMAN: No in the main I wasn't in the room, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now surely, Mr Wasserman, you have to concede that she must have been screaming?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there was occasions where she shouted, but it wasn't fully, it wasn't screaming.

MR WILLS: She was loud?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: So somebody outside would have heard?

MR WASSERMAN: Not ideally, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: What do you mean "not ideally"? Let's not beat around the bush again. Just, the person outside, you would know whether they'd hear or not?

MR WASSERMAN: Outside where? Outside the camp?

MR WILLS: Outside the room.

MR WASSERMAN: Outside the room, yes, you could hear that she was shouting from the outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when somebody talks about shouting, it's normally shouting words as opposed to screaming. Are you saying she was saying something when she was shouting, or was she wailing or screaming?

MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, she was answering the question.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are distinguishing between shouting and screaming?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: She was shouting out words.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman, she was answering and that's what was happening. She was not wailing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR LAX: May I just clarify? So she didn't call out in pain at being struck a couple of times, or once, or whatever? There was no exclamation. Whether it was a scream or it was just a groan, or some sort of sound.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the way she did utter some words on some occasions of delivery, you could hear that it was an exclamation as a result of the whip action. So there was a sound like that.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WILLS: I mean then the short of it is surely, if somebody had been standing outside of that room, they would be left in no doubt whatsoever that the person inside the room was being given a beating?

MR WASSERMAN: If you were close by Mr Chairman you would hear that there was something like that happening inside.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I've just lost my train of thought. If you can just bear with me. You said you saw her legs stretched out.

MR WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You remember that distinctly?

MR WASSERMAN: I recall that when I walked in the first instance.

MR WILLS: So you've got a picture in your mind's eye of that? That's how my memory works.

MR WASSERMAN: How long ago are we talking about now, Sir?

MR WILLS: I'm talking about what comes up in your mind, when you give that evidence, what comes up in your mind?

MR WASSERMAN: In my mind's eye she was seated on the floor blindfolded.

MR WILLS: Yes, and you specifically noticed that her legs were stretched in front of her?

MR WASSERMAN: I seem to recall that, yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: Oh, are you changing? Do you recall it or don't you?

MR WASSERMAN: I seem to recall that was the position.

MR WILLS: That indicates some doubt in your mind, the seems to recall.

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I believe that was the situation.

MR WILLS: Yes and you have a picture of this in your mind?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now what was the position in regard to her clothing? Were her legs covered or were they bare?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I think her legs were bare.

MR WILLS: So the prospects are that she was wearing a dress as opposed to long trousers.

MR WASSERMAN: No, I believe she was in a dress, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes,. Can you remember anything else about that dress?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't recall anything specifically. In my mind's eye I believe it was probably light in colour, lightish, in my mind's eye I've got lightish, but I'm not certain on that.

MR WILLS: Could there be floral markings on the dress?

MR WASSERMAN: I cannot say that, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Do you have any recollection as to where her hands were?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, her hand were free and when she got whacked by Mr Taylor, her hands would go up. Her hands were in front of her.

MR WILLS: Yes, and you've obviously got a picture of that in your mind's eye.

MR WASSERMAN: When I saw it, it's in my mind's eye.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now what clothing did she have on top? I mean on her upper torso? Were her arms covered or were they bare?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I can't recall. I'm sorry I cannot recall much of her clothing at all, except in my mind's eye, light. I don't even know if it was one piece or two pieces.

MR WILLS: Yes. Was the top section also light? I'm sorry, I'm asking you, this is very important to our case.

MR WASSERMAN: I understand Sir, however I cannot state. I just have a - in my mind's eye I have lightish clothing.

MR WILLS: Yes. Well, our version will be that at the time she was either wearing a white or a light beige polo neck jersey over her dress. Could you dispute that?

MR WASSERMAN: Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, I can't

comment on a polo neck, I don't recall a polo neck.

MR WILLS: What makes you say that? If you don't recall, you can't recall what she was wearing.

MR WASSERMAN: I recall lightish clothing.

MR WILLS: That's it. So it could have been a lightish coloured polo neck then?

MR WASSERMAN: That is possible Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.

MR WILLS: Returning to your mind's eye picture of her legs, can you remember whether or not she had shoes on?

MR WASSERMAN: I can't Sir.

MR WILLS: When you say you were waiting at this base because you were on standby for an operation, what were you expecting that day?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'd been informed that the unit was in possession of information of armed cadres and that their internal co-ordinator was Ms Khubeka and that Vlakplaas ex-MK operatives were doing a pseudo penetration and if all was going well, then Ms Khubeka would lead one or two of the persons to the pseudo infiltrating group and they would bring one or two, or whoever came to a point where they would be captured.

MR WILLS: Yes. Was it your expectation that, or should I rather say, it wouldn't then have surprised you that Ms Khubeka arrived?

MR WASSERMAN: No, that surprised me, Mr chairman.

MR WILLS: Why?

MR WASSERMAN: Well it was better for Ms Khubeka to still be in her position as co-ordinator and for us to continue close monitoring and we could have continued to monitor other groups that might have infiltrated the area via her.

MR WILLS: Look I know what, it would have been fantastic for you had the operation of infiltration continued ad infinitum and expanded. I'm not talking about what would have been better for you. It seems to me from the evidence gleaned so far, that Ms Khubeka was going to lead people into essentially a trap. Is that right? Where they'd be arrested, that was the plan.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I wasn't actually part of the plan but from the evidence I've heard here, I've ascertained that.

MR WILLS: So why are you telling me, why was your answer given to my last question, why didn't you just say : "I don't know".

MR WASSERMAN: What was the question?

MR WILLS: Sorry if you don't understand me. You've indicated that you knew of this operation that Ms Khubeka was going to lead these people in a pseudo operation or words to that effect and then there was going to be some sort of arrest, not so?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, I said yes.

MR WILLS: Yes. So how did Mrs Khubeka feature in these plans exactly.? What was expected of her?

MR WASSERMAN: I was informed that she would lead one, principally it was hopeful that the unit Commander of the MK unit would come and be introduced to the Vlakplaas pseudo unit.

MR WILLS: Yes.

MR WASSERMAN: And that they would then separate and arrest, or a capture could be made of the MK persons that were now handed over unknowingly by Ms Khubeka to the operation, to the pseudo unit.

MR WILLS: Okay and so who told you that? I mean, when were you appraised of that?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Col Botha informed me of that before the operation started.

MR WILLS: Yes. So then you were expecting, you were waiting at your base to question people? You were expecting this so-called terrorist? I prefer to use the word guerrilla, or freedom fighter. But you were expecting a freedom fighter to be brought to the base for interrogation?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't know what to expect. I was standing by there and however the operation would unfold is how it would be treated by the next step. Not all operations go off pitter-patter straight.

CHAIRPERSON: But assuming that the operation was running reasonably well, you would have expected some person to have been arrested and brought back to base?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I was expecting an MK person to come through.

MR WILLS: So no doubt the base was all geared up for interrogation, because that was going to be the plan? In other words, somebody would have brought along a sjambok?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I know nothing about the sjambok, or who would have brought along a sjambok.

MR WILLS: The place was geared up for interrogation. It was specifically chosen to handle a situation where somebody could be interrogated in such a way that their screams would not be heard by the public, or parties who were not in on your operation? Obviously that's the case.

MR WASSERMAN: That's not necessarily the case, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Well tell me why you went to that place.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, if the MK person was going to co-operate with us, we would have had to be out of the limelight to continue the operation and take it further.

MR WILLS: And if he didn't co-operate?

MR WASSERMAN: We would have persevered Mr Chairman, in the operation.

MR WILLS: Yes, but surely that would have been at least a loud operation and you wouldn't have wanted people to hear about it? I mean we've heard evidence to the effect that the chances are pretty good that if a freedom fighter doesn't co-operate with you that he gets slapped around a bit and that's a painful experience, so you'd want that to be hidden from the outside?

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman, however many MK cadres, just merely by the fact of their arrest, did co-operate.

MR WILLS: Yes, I know, but you were planning for both situations no doubt. You couldn't guarantee that the person was going to come in and just co-operate, not so?

MR WASSERMAN: Nobody can guarantee co-operation, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes, so that's one of the reasons why this base was selected, not so?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't select the base, I had no reason, I had no personal knowledge of why the base was selected.

MR WILLS: So, how long had you been a policeman, at that stage?

MR WASSERMAN: What year was this Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: 87.

MR WASSERMAN: 87. From 75.

MR WILLS: Twelve years, approximately. Didn't it, didn't you feel compelled even though you were relatively junior in rank, didn't you feel compelled to stop the people beating this woman?

MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, there's nothing I could have done. I didn't feel that compulsion.

MR WILLS: So you went along with it? In other words you were at common purpose with the parties to the assault?

MR WASSERMAN: I was, Sir.

MR WILLS: I see in your application that you're not applying for the murder of this person. Is that correct?

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now when you took her out can you recall what the situation was in the room? Sorry, rather let me go to the first occasion you went into the room. The first occasion you went into the room was relatively soon after her so-called death.

MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: Now describe the situation to us. Was anybody else in the room with you at that stage?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, when I first went in, I went in alone.

MR WILLS: And your purpose was?

MR WASSERMAN: To see what condition, or what had happened inside that room. Would I require a bag or some kind of thing to cover the person in. I was making plans now on what I would require in order to dispose of the body.

MR WILLS: So you did a careful inspection of the situation at hand?

MR WASSERMAN: I summarise what I had seen and what I was to do, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And the light was on?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that camp didn't have lights. We were using a generator and I think there was a very small light that was on, but it wasn't bright lights like we are sitting under here, but there was a light on.

MR WILLS: Could you see?

MR WASSERMAN: I could see, Sir.

MR WILLS: Could you distinguish between let's say brown and white?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: Could you see if it was a black person lying on the floor or a white person lying on the floor?

MR WASSERMAN: I could see Sir.

MR WILLS: And what did you see?

MR WASSERMAN: I saw Ms Khubeka lying on her back towards the one corner of the room, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And where were her arms?

MR WASSERMAN: I can't recall, Mr Chairman. She was on her back. I can only presume her arms were by her sides.

MR WILLS: And where were her legs?

MR WASSERMAN: She was on her back and her legs were straight out in front of her.

MR WILLS: Yes, proceed. What else? Did you see anything else in the room?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the floor was wet.

MR WILLS: Very wet?

MR WASSERMAN: I would say moderately wet, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR WILLS: And what, one bucket full of water, two, three? Would you be in a position to estimate?

MR WASSERMAN: No, I can't estimate.

CHAIRPERSON: The floor, was it carpeted or was it a cement floor or wooden floor?

MR WASSERMAN: It was a cement floor Mr Chair.

MR WILLS: There wasn't a blanket pulled over her?

MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, there was no blanket there.

MR WILLS: You see my understanding that respect is usually shown to the dead when something is pulled over her face. That wasn't done in this case?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there was no blanket in that room, so that wasn't done.

MR WILLS: Was there anything apparent in the position of her body that led you to understand that anything respectful had been done to the body?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't quite understand Sir.

MR WILLS: Were her eyes closed?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she have the blindfold on at that stage?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, that's why I don't know what condition her eyes were.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you describe, sorry Mr Wills, the blindfold?

MR WASSERMAN: It was not a bag, Mr Chairman, it was a length of material.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Did you smell urine?

MR WASSERMAN: I did, Sir.

MR WILLS: Can you be certain that there was no blood?

MR WASSERMAN: There was no blood, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Were there any welt marks on the body, the neck, the fact, the legs, that you noticed?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't notice them, I didn't go that close to the body.

MR WILLS: Did you touch the body at all at that stage?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I only touched the body when I lifted it with Mr du Preez to place in the boot of the vehicle.

MR WILLS: How long would you estimate you were in the room for this first occasion, on this first occasion?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, a minute.

MR WILLS: And then it was some half an hour later that you - sorry. How much later was it that you came with Mr du Preez to remove the body?

MR WASSERMAN: This, Mr Chairman, was a considerable period of time later than that.

MR WILLS: Can you remember how, what your participation was in regard to the lifting of the body?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I picked up Ms Khubeka under her arms.

MR WILLS: And then you can recall obviously du Preez must have picked up her legs?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes. Continue. What did you do then?

MR WASSERMAN: Then Mr du Preez was, he left the door first. He went backwards out the door first. I followed with him. The vehicle - he had parked the vehicle close by to the door. We placed her on the floor at the back of the vehicle where I took a better grip and then we both lifted her up and we placed her into the boot of the Nissan vehicle.

MR WILLS: You said earlier that you'd gone in to see what you'd need for your operation and you mentioned whether you'd need a plastic bag, or something like that. Didn't it strike you as being necessary to get a plastic bag?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Do you know - I assume then once you put her in the boot, did you close the door of the room, or did you re-enter the room or did you just drive off?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't re-enter that room once she was in the vehicle.

MR WILLS: Not to this day?

MR WASSERMAN: I did afterwards, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes and by the time you went afterwards, when was that?

MR WASSERMAN: The following day Sir.

MR WILLS: And was the room still wet?

MR WASSERMAN: No Sir.

MR WILLS: Had it been cleaned?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you know who did that?

MR WASSERMAN: No, I don't know who did that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, if I could just ask a question. When you were taking the body to the vehicle, had rigor mortis set in at all?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now, you, surely your colleague du Preez would have asked you, since he wasn't there, what happened exactly. Because you were sort of involved in the sense that you were in and out of there?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, he never asked me what had happened. He - I assumed, I had been informed that she'd had a heart attack.

MR WILLS: Yes and what discussion did you have?

MR WASSERMAN: At what stage, Mr Chairman?

MR WILLS: In the car, sorry. Tell me what you said in the car from when you had put the body in the boot of the car and you'd started the car, you'd driven some, what would you estimate, 50 kilometres?

MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: From Winkelspruit to kwaMashu? 40?

MR WASSERMAN: Thereabouts, yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: That must have taken at least 20 minutes.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Travelling 120 kilometres an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: One would hope it took a little bit longer than that, because you have to get right through Durban, don't you? Although there are freeways.

MR WILLS: In that travelling time, what was the discussion?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I recall discussing with Mr du Preez a suitable place, which would concur with the instructions of Taylor, to be close by to the house in order to allow for the body to be found and concluded that the Bambayi area was close enough and she would be found there and placed in the police mortuary and inquiries could be made from there by the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that area quite well, Mr Wasserman, that Inanda, Bambayi?

MR WASSERMAN: I knew it moderately well, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So your version is that the only discussion that took place was a discussion in relation to your orders, i.e where to dispose of the body?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman and the fact that Bambayi was, to us seemed a suitable place for that.

MR WILLS: Yes. But there was no other discussion, you didn't discuss the rugby match or anything along that nature? Other than that you were silent?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman. We weren't in a jovial mood. There wasn't much jovial discussions made.

MR WILLS: Now, you see, referring to your statement at page ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Referring to Exhibit E?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman, Exhibit E, at your paragraph 7, which no doubt has been made together with your counsel, you say that:

There's no mention here of it being close to the home of the deceased. Is there any reason for that?

MR WASSERMAN: there's no specific reason for that, Mr Chair, that to me places a supposition that close to her home also fits within there.

MR WILLS: Yes. I also would suggest that if you took it to a police station it would probably would be found as well, not so?

MR WASSERMAN: What's that got to do with it?

MR WILLS: Let me ask the questions. What I'm suggesting is that there seems to me to be no reason for you to take the body to a place where it would be found quickly. What was the reason for that?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she had died a natural death, so I'd been informed, and Col Taylor had decided that seeing it wasn't unnatural, the recovery of the body not too far from her home, would seem in order.

MR WILLS: But weren't you afraid that the marks on her body from what must have at least been a fairly serious assault would be apparent and raise suspicion. It wasn't a natural death. Let's - surely you don't maintain your position that it was a natural death first o all?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, I maintain the position that it was a natural death, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So you're of the view that the assaults in no way contributed to the death?

MR WASSERMAN: Not medical, Mr Chairman, I cannot say if it did or if it didn't.

MR WILLS: Yes, that's exactly my point. You cannot say that it was a natural death. Not so?

MR WASSERMAN: No, I cannot.

MR WILLS: Yes. Surely you wouldn't have been happy for her to have been identified with such injuries?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that's why Bambayi was selected. There was very much violence happening in that area at the time and anybody walking, or moving in and out of certain areas of Bambayi that didn't belong to certain factions or parties, would be sjamboked and possibly killed, so any markings found on a person in that vicinity.

MR WILLS: So Bambayi was chosen, not because of it's proximity to her home, but because of the political violence in that area?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, that was the second bit, the main portion is that it is in close proximity to the house.

MR WILLS: And when was that decided or discussed?

MR WASSERMAN: du Preez and I discussed that in the vehicle.

MR WILLS: Why didn't you mention it when I asked you earlier, if you can remember now?

MR WASSERMAN: I did answer your question.

MR WILLS: I know you answered my question, but you didn't give me this information earlier. When I asked, I laboured the point because I wanted to find out exactly what was discussed in the car. I'm putting to you that you're just making up this version now.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, you asked me about what was the discussion in the car and I said to you we discussed that we had to take the body close to the house and then we selected Bambayi. I answered that question.

MR WILLS: Now are you trained in first aid?

MR WASSERMAN: I am, Sir.

MR WILLS: Did you feel her pulse?

MR WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: So from your own personal position you don't know if she was dead?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, she was dead when I saw her.

MR WILLS: How do you know that?

MR WASSERMAN: The time span was rather ...(indistinct) by that time.

MR WILLS: How do you know she couldn't have been unconscious?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, she was dead.

MR WILLS: But you didn't even feel her pulse, how can you tell me that?

MR WASSERMAN: It's my presumption.

MR WILLS: It's a presumption and your presumption is based on just your visual observation.

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think he was also told that she was, that she had died.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. And the hearsay evidence of Mr Taylor, he was the person who told you that she died.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, he told me so, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes. Do you know if he felt her pulse?

MR WASSERMAN: No, I don't know that.

MR WILLS: Do you know if anybody tried to resuscitate her?

MR WASSERMAN: I do not know that, Sir.

MR WILLS: You see, there's a scenario which I must put to you because I'm trying to fit a few things together. You obviously have seen the photographs and what we believe is the case that at some stage she was shot at the top of her head and killed. That she might have been, she might have revived somewhere in the car and then you and du Preez decided to just put a quick end to her.

MR WASSERMAN: That's totally incorrect, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: What firearm do you carry?

MR WASSERMAN: 9mm pistols

MR WILLS: And Mr du Preez?

MR WASSERMAN: Also a 9 mm.

MR WILLS: And what is the calibre of the bullet that is used?

MR WASSERMAN: 9 mm.

MR WILLS: And what - sorry, did you have that firearm on you on that day?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: You never change it?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: And did you see that weapon with du Preez?

MR WASSERMAN: No, I did not see it.

MR WILLS: So you can't tell me what weapon he had?

MR WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: You're just assuming from past experience?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: If you can just bear with me for a minute, Mr Chairperson. When you inspected the room did you see her handbag in the room?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You obviously didn't carry a handbag to the car with you?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: Did you notice if she had a ring on?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I noticed no jewellery at all.

MR WILLS: You would have noticed had she been wearing panties or not?

MR WASSERMAN: I wouldn't have noticed, Mr Chair.

MR WILLS: So you didn't notice?

MR WASSERMAN: I did not, Sir.

MR WILLS: How far off the road was she dumped? In metres.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, 15/18 metres off the verge.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could give an indication in this room, Mr Wasserman?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir. From my position to perhaps that other boundary wall behind Jimmy Mbane. The divider.

CHAIRPERSON: The room divider. Yes. It's plus minus 15 paces. It might even be 12, but somewhere around there.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I could just intervene, Mr Wills. You said that was from the verge?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes. Sir, that's from ...

MR LAX: Not from the tar surface, from the verge?

MR WASSERMAN: From off the road, from the verge.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it was a tar road?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the tar stops and then you have a verge which is normally gravel which varies depending, from one road to another, but normally a metre or two wide and then veld?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying this was - this distance you've indicated was from the edge of the verge, from the veld?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In the veld.

MR WASSERMAN: I would estimate from the verge, the edge of the verge in the veld, not the tar.

CHAIRPERSON: So from the edge of the tar you would add on the width of the verge to that distance. Yes.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: And the terrain, was it grassy, dry?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it was grassy, but shortish grass, not elephant grass, not long grass.

MR WILLS: And flat or undulating?

MR WASSERMAN: No, flattish Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could indicate the type of grass because shortish, or elephant can cover quite a range of heights of grass. If you could perhaps indicate with your hand about how high the grass would have been at the place where the body was disposed of?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'd estimate it slightly shorter than the height of this table.

CHAIRPERSON: About 800 mm.

MR WASSERMAN: About here, Sir. sort of.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what would you ...?

MR WILLS: I'd agree, about 700 to 800 mm.

CHAIRPERSON: Say 750 mm, three quarters of a metre high.

MR WILLS: In other words if the body was in that grass, it would be quite difficult to see it?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, that grass isn't that long that it's invisible at all.

MR WILLS: Just a couple of aspects on the version of the Vlakplaas operatives. Coetzer indicates that there was a fight or an argument between Botha and himself regarding Botha's instructions to send Mbane back to the Khubeka household. Were you aware of that?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, unaware of that.

MR WILLS: Were you - are you able to say when the Vlakplaas operatives were drawn out of the house, or sorry - excuse me Mr Chairperson - were withdrawn from the operation, how many days afterwards?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm not aware of their activities after this. I can't recall. They were there for a day or two, but what Mr Botha did with them or redirected, I wouldn't know.

MR WILLS: Yes, but your recollection is that they weren't there for long after that.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: It might have been the very next day?

MR WASSERMAN: Or even the day after that, Mr Chairman, I cannot recall that at all.

MR WILLS: You were obviously in close contact with the C1 people or not? Did you ever speak to them?

MR WASSERMAN: Are you referring to this operation, Sir?

MR WILLS: Yes.

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, not ideally. We would discuss peripheral things but the details of the operation were Botha's details, not mine.

MR WILLS: Yes, look I realise that Botha would have discussed this in the main, but you were living together, not so?

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: So I mean the chances are you didn't have a hell of a lot in common, except the sort of work that you were doing?

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: So the probabilities are that you would have discussed work more than anything else?

MR WASSERMAN: Not necessarily, Sir.

MR WILLS: You can't remember discussing the details of operations, of what was happening in their lives, or their infiltration with them at any stage?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You can't remember for example being informed by them that Ms Khubeka was getting suspicious of the fact that she's being watched, or just getting generally suspicious of what was going on?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I was never informed of that fact by anyone.

MR WILLS: Now, in a situation where somebody in her position, and let's just look at that position just very briefly, where she is an ANC operative, you have infiltrated with a couple of your askaris and assuming that she was suspicious, what action would you have expected to be taken?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't quite get the point of the question Sir, please repeat.

MR WILLS: If she's suspicious of the fact that, if she thinks that the Security Branch is on to her and that was communicated to you and you know that you've got your operatives working there, you know that her suspicions are indeed true, so in other words she's got some information concerning the fact that she's the subject of a Security Branch operation and you have your two informers there and communicating with her on an ongoing basis, what would happen to her in a situation like that, I mean, surely you wouldn't just let it carry on normally?

MR WASSERMAN: But Mr Chairman, I wasn't aware of that situation.

MR WILLS: No, no I'm asking hypothetically. I've accepted your answer that you weren't aware of that. Hypothetically, you'd have to protect the operation, the integrity of the operation surely? Have to take some action to make sure that her suspicion didn't lead to investigations, which didn't lead to her uncovering the fact that this was a big Security Branch ploy?

MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman, there would have been some action taken by the operation handlers.

MR WILLS: Yes. And what sort of action would you expect them to take? I think Mr Lax summed it up by saying that at least one of two things would have been considered. One would have been to withdraw the operatives and, sorry the informers, the askaris, and the other would be to arrest Khubeka. Would those be contemplated in the situation? Again we're speaking hypothetically.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, those two could have been contemplated and as well as the normal informers that were in position could have continued as well and the whole thing could have been aborted as well.

MR WILLS: Yes. But if you specifically wanted information from her that you believed she was holding, for example she knew the whereabouts of freedom fighters infiltrating from Zambia, the chances are you would have, the dice would have fell on the option to pick her up and find out what's going on?

MR WASSERMAN: I personally wouldn't have picked her up, Mr Chairman, I would have continued long distance surveillance and an operation on her. I personally would not have picked her up had I been in charge of that, in that scenario.

MR WILLS: Why not?

MR WASSERMAN: I would let the operation continue and eventually the sources would have come up with ...(intervention.

MR WILLS: But we've heard evidence that the sources weren't coming up with the goods.

MR WASSERMAN: Maybe that's on this particular case but they would have come up sooner or later, Mr Chair.

MR WILLS: Yes, but on the assumption that your sources weren't coming up with the goods, surely then you wouldn't have let this valuable source of information escape you and you would have decided then to pick her up? Because I can't see, or unless you can advise me, I can't see any other way of getting that information out of her head into your domain?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I think it's a matter of personal methods between personal Security Branch policemen. If you're asking me hypothetically, I would not have picked her up, but she was picked up seemingly by evidence led here because she was brought by Mr Mbane.

MR WILLS: Yes and would you expect that that would be an organised arrest?

MR WASSERMAN: From what I gather it was not due to happen like that, Sir.

MR WILLS: Okay thank you Mr Chairman. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Visser, do you have any re-examination?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, in inches what is the equivalent to a 9 mm bullet?

MR WASSERMAN: In inches it would be .38.

MR VISSER: And a 7.65 mm what would that relate to in, or translate to in inches?

MR WASSERMAN: That would be .32.

MR VISSER: 32?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. No, I'm sorry, the firearm which you said you had there that evening, was that your own personal firearm?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, it was my personal issue SAP weapon.

MR VISSER: It was a police issue?

MR WASSERMAN: Police issue weapon yes.

MR VISSER: What police issue were the other members of the Security Branch issued with?

MR WASSERMAN: We were all issued with 9 mm.

MR VISSER: 9 mm, .38s?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Wasserman did you remove the blindfold from the body?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you dispose of the body with the blindfold on it?

MR WASSERMAN: I beg your pardon, at the scene of the disposal?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes.

MR WASSERMAN: No the blindfold was off her then?

ADV BOSMAN: What became of the blindfold? What did you do with it?

MR WASSERMAN: I can't recall, Mr Chairman. Maybe, I would imagine we would have destroyed it.

ADV BOSMAN: And I asked your colleague whether he didn't find it strange that a sjambok was being used for this assault and he thought it was rather unusual. What are your views on it?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, even I, it's rather strange that a sjambok was there. However, it was there and it was used.

ADV BOSMAN: And then, in your evidence you said that if a person did not belong to a particular grouping in Bambayi, that person would have been sjamboked.

MR WASSERMAN: It's merely a term, they would have been thoroughly beaten.

ADV BOSMAN: So, I mean this is just what went through my mind when you mentioned that is, was the body placed in Bambayi because it had sjambok marks on it and people would have thought that she had been sjamboked and killed in Bambayi? Was that the idea?

MR WASSERMAN: Ma'am it was part and parcel, it was - we could skin the cat both ways. Once it was close to the house and also from the sjamboking that the late Ms Khubeka received at Winkelspruit, it would have been interpreted as part, as being a victim of some of the violence that was happening there.

ADV BOSMAN: Let me just take you back to your visit or entrance into the room. Did you notice the sjambok marks on her?

MR WASSERMAN: No.

ADV BOSMAN: So did you not have it in mind then that you should take the body to Bambayi and people would think that she has been sjamboked?

MR WASSERMAN: Once we were told to find a place next to the home, Bambayi fitted the picture at the time, due to local knowledge. We knew Bambayi fitted the picture and it was close to Ms Khubeka's house.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes. Mr Wasserman I still don't really have your answer the way I want it. Did you at any time see the sjambok marks?

MR WASSERMAN: No Ma'am. I didn't see the sjambok marks, it was too dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have expected her to have had, or did you at that time expect that she would have had sjambok marks, from what you say during the interrogation?

MR WASSERMAN: I did so indeed, Sir.

MR LAX: If I could just interpose please, just on this issue of sjambok marks. I mean the fact is, you didn't think of the sjambok marks. As I understand your evidence, that hadn't even occurred to you. The real issue was Bambayi was a place where there was violence and that violence would cover your violence against her and the body would be dumped where there was a place where there was violence. That's what went through your mind, as I understand your evidence.

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir, that's Bambayi.

ADV BOSMAN: I just put it to you this way then, the fact that you said here in your evidence that in Bambayi a person would have been sjamboked, is purely coincidental?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, that's phraseology Ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. What sort of area was Bambayi? In other words, what sort of settlement was it? What sort of people lived there?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it wasn't an established area at that point in time.

MR LAX: So it was an informal settlement.

MR WASSERMAN: It was informally settled upon, yes.

MR LAX: How was it controlled, by which groupings?

MR WASSERMAN: It had its zones, criminals owned some, drug dealers owned part of it, UDF owned some, IFP owned some. It was rather a rough area.

MR LAX: And which part did you drop her at?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't know which portion, or who was in control of that portion, but it was in the portion, in the vicinity of the Ghandi settlement.

MR LAX: Yes but here was a person whom you knew was an ANC operative. If you wanted to make it look like she'd been dumped there and killed as part of the violence in that area, you would have wanted to drop her in an IFP area, so that she would appear to have been part of that violence? I'm making this based on the evidence you've already given in relation to the answers to Adv Bosman.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman I didn't know which specific area of Bambayi was ANC or IFP.

MR LAX: So, you see the likelihood had to be, if you were going to drop her off at a place where there was violence, she would have to be somebody who couldn't show that she was from that area and therefore had got killed. Do you follow my drift?

MR WASSERMAN: Not exactly, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: In other words, if I'm an IFP person and I find myself in the ANC part of Bambayi, then there's a good likelihood I may be killed. Ditto if I'm an ANC person in the IFP area of Bambayi, and we know of countless instances of that. Are you with me so far?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes. Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: So that if you wanted to drop her off in a place and make it appear as if that was part of the violence, you would choose the IFP part of Bambayi to drop her in.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Because once her identity became known, it would be known here was this person from a prominent ANC family.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, but the main reason was the vicinity and the closeness of home.

MR LAX: Yes but you also wanted it to look like it was part of the violence?

MR WASSERMAN: That was an added point that did come into our considerations.

MR LAX: What other weapons are there of a 7,65 mm calibre that you know of?

MR WASSERMAN: Do you mean handguns Sir?

MR LAX: Yes, or other guns for that matter, but handguns, let's assume it's a handgun.

QUESTION: ...(indistinct)

MR LAX: Correct.

MR WASSERMAN: Is it 7,65 not 6,75?

MR VISSER: Mr Lax said 6.75 and that's what confuses the witness that's why I tried to correct it, I think he's referring to a 7,65.

MR LAX: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just rephrase the whole question again, Mr Lax from the start.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me for one moment Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: While Mr Lax is looking ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Page 37 ...Sorry Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You can give him the page.

MR VISSER: Yes, it's page 37.

MR LAX: Okay now we're all on the same pages, as someone used to say in the Commission. Yes, 7,65 sorry, I had it right and then my dyslexia got the better of me.

CHAIRPERSON: Just rephrase the question.

MR LAX: What firearms, handguns in particular, would you know of, of a 7,65 mm calibre?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm aware of various one, amongst which a 7,65 which comes immediately to mind, would be a Scorpion.

MR LAX: And for example at the time you chaps were involved in the Ndaba matter and the Shabalala matter, that's what was used?

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct.

MR LAX: And in several other incidents we've heard about.

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman, but at this point in time, we had no access to Scorpions.

MR LAX: Yes. All I'm checking is that I am right that it is the same calibre as the ones that were used in other matters.

MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chair.

MR LAX: I want to just canvass with you the question of the place where you dumped the body and you've indicated that the body would be easily seen. Did I understand you correctly?

MR WASSERMAN: In my view, Sir, it would have been easily located, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say that, what do you mean? By somebody driving past in a motor vehicle or somebody walking through the veld, or what?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, in my opinion it would have been walked upon, walked into, rather.

MR LAX: When you say "walked into", somebody walking through the veld would have seen it?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, the veld was criss-crossed, it was heavily traversed during daylight time.

MR LAX: When you say it was "heavily traversed", in what sense do you mean? What would people have been criss-crossing it for?

MR WASSERMAN: Moving, walking from the villages towards the main road.

MR LAX: So from the settlement in the vicinity to the main road?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: If you were walking along the verge of the road, would you have been able to see the body?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I think perhaps, I don't know how vigilant people are, but I think I would have observed it, had I been walking along.

MR LAX: When you left there in the darkness, could you see the body on the side there?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, it was pitch black.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that point. We've spoken about grass, were there bushes there, shrubbery, trees?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, it was pretty much flat.

CHAIRPERSON: Grass?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: You said something during your evidence and it was around the issue of, after you left the room, after observing the body, while you were sort of calculating in your mind the possibilities of what you would need and how you would dispose of the body, you then left the room and you went and remained with the other members until it was late enough to remove the body, that's how you testified.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Which other members did you remain with?

MR WASSERMAN: I recall du Preez and I recall Taylor, Sir.

MR LAX: And what about Botha?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman I presume he must have been there, but I don't recall him as I'm thinking about the incident right now.

MR LAX: And what did you do while you were waiting there?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, we just hung around and just spoke and I can't recall anything else. We were just waiting for the lateness of the hour.

MR LAX: You see, I'm going to read you what Botha says in his application. He says, I'm going to read you a long portion, it's all in Afrikaans so I suggest you put the thing on, page 20 or bundle 1. He says, from the middle of the page:

You followed all of that?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: No in other words, from that portion it seems reasonably clear that you and du Preez left approximately an hour after that decision.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: That was an hour after the decision to dispose of the body, correct?

MR WASSERMAN: That's what, yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Of course, your testimony is that it didn't happen that way.

MR WASSERMAN: I seem to recall probably longer than an hour.

MR LAX: Yes. It was just interesting that in the first part of your evidence before you corrected yourself, you did indicate approximately an hour.

MR WASSERMAN: It was longer, I feel it was longer than an hour.

MR LAX: Yes. The other thing is that on your version Taylor knew what the plan would be. Am I correct?

MR WASSERMAN: The plan?

MR LAX: In other words to dispose of the body at a place where it would be found.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, he came to me with the order.

MR LAX: Precisely. But on this version of Botha's, in this application, he went and reported to Taylor that that was what would be done.

MR WASSERMAN: Well, Mr Chairman, I'm not party of, between the senior officers' discussion.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't know where that is on this page. I've followed very carefully. In fact what there is on this page, with great respect, is precisely the opposite. He says:

and the next paragraph followed.

MR LAX: Fair enough I may have read the wrong emphasis into the penultimate paragraph on that page then, where he then after they had left, goes and reports to Taylor that you would make a plan to ensure that the body would be left at a place where it would be found. You see, my impression of this bit of testimony is that they discussed that they'd get rid of the body but the precise details were things that Botha and you guys discussed and that after you left, he went to Taylor and told him. That's what this reads, if you read it carefully. You don't know about that.

MR WASSERMAN: No.

MR LAX: As far as you're concerned, Taylor and Botha discussed the matter in your and Mr du Preez's presence and you were simply given a direction although you overheard their discussion?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Just about that discussion. What else did you hear? What other options did they weigh up?

MR WASSERMAN: No, there was no other options within my earshot, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: So what sort of a discussion did they have, if they didn't debate options?

MR WASSERMAN: I didn't believe, discussion is the wrong word, Mr Chair, because they were basically briefing du Preez and I.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you referred to it earlier:

MR WASSERMAN: More of a directive Sir, it was not discussion in options and points to be given or taken.

MR LAX: You've misunderstood my question. My question is, and I asked you very carefully, Botha and Taylor had a discussion in your presence, they then made a decision. You said "Yes". They then gave you a direction? You said "Yes". Do you understand the difference between what I'm putting to you or suggesting to you? that's what I've understood from your testimony. If I haven't understood you correctly, please correct me. Do you see? That's how I understood it.

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm not quite certain yet.

MR LAX: Okay. Let me explain again. Did Botha and Taylor have a discussion about what to do with the body, or did they just suggest to one another in three sentences, "Let's dispose of the body." "Yes, let's dispose of the body", come to you and say "Get rid of the body in a place that can be found?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: As quick as that?

MR WASSERMAN: Virtually as quick as that.

MR LAX: Okay. Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wasserman, the place where you and Mr du Preez put the body into the Skyline at the shooting range, if somebody was staying in, was in the room where the C1 members slept, could they see that spot?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not at all, when you said you went in to take a look at the body and saw it was wet and you smelled urine, did you not at all think that steps should be taken to line the boot of the vehicle, to prevent any possible evidence of the fact that you had transported a dead body in the vehicle? Either line the boot or wrap up the body?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, to be frank, I did think of that. However, by the way that we were able to operate, I realised at that point that nobody would come to our vehicle, there was no reason to worry about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Visser, do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETHE: Sorry, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

MS THABETHE: Yes I realised that. I have some few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't intend to ...

MS THABETHE: Two aspects here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Wasserman, I want to go back to Winkelspruit. I'm not sure what your answer was. You were asked at some stage whether Coetzer was there and what was your answer?

MR WASSERMAN: I don't recall Coetzer there, Ma'am.

MS THABETHE: Except that of course in his statement in bundle 2 page 103 paragraph 10 he suggests that he wasn't present when the deceased was interrogated, however, he could hear that she was being questioned. What would be your response to that, would it conceded that or would you deny that? Bundle 2 page 103, paragraph 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle 2, page 103 paragraph 10.

MR LAX: Mr Wasserman the passage is in the middle of that paragraph and it says:

MR WASSERMAN: I didn't hear Sir.

MR LAX: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: This is from a statement made by Mr Coetzer. Paragraph 10 page 103, third sentence of that paragraph.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, I understand. The question Sir.

MS THABETHE: No that question was asked by Ms Thabethe.

MR LAX: And it was: What do you say about that comment?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MR LAX: Is it possible that he could have heard that? Basically that's what she's asking you.

MS THABETHE: Yes, of course with regard to the fact that he said that he doesn't remember whether he was there.

MR LAX: Yes. would you concede that he might have been there and heard those things?

MR WASSERMAN: That's possible, Sir.

MS THABETHE: Just another aspect, Mr Wasserman. When you went to dump the body, were there any people still walking around at Bambayi?

MR WASSERMAN: There was none visible to us when we did that action.

MS THABETHE: So is there any reason why maybe you didn't dump the body next to the road? You had to go inside the veld. Is there any reason why you decided to do that?

MR WASSERMAN: There's nothing specific, no specific reason for that, but it wasn't placed far away from the road, it was close enough.

MS THABETHE: So in your belief, you would say that the place where you dumped the body, someone might have identified the body or found it?

MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chair, and with all probabilities that body would have been located very shortly afterwards.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Visser, any questions arising?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you. No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Botha?

MS BOTHA: Nee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Just one question, Mr Chairman.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Mr Wasserman, you say that this body was taken in a Skyline, is that correct?

MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir.

MR SAMUEL: Jimmy Mbane will say in his evidence, that this body was put into a Toyota panel van. Have you got anything to reply to that?

MR WASSERMAN: That's a mistake, Sir. That's not correct, Sir.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, any questions arising?

MR WILLS: Yes. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: I want to refer you to Mr Taylor's affidavit, page 5 of bundle 1, concerning the issue of where the order, what was the essence of the order to dispose of the body and I quote from the second paragraph on that page:

Now the point that I'm concerned about is that there's no mention there of getting rid of the body near the home.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes, so are you sure that that was in fact the order?

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, that was given to us.

MR WILLS: And the other thing that the deceased Mr Taylor recalls, is that it was Hentie Botha who spoke to you and not himself. Is he wrong there?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Taylor spoke to me personally Sir.

MR WILLS: And just if I may take the liberty very briefly, Mr Chairperson, to refer the witness to page 4, the last paragraph on that page. Mr Taylor, in describing the incident, says that:

So he was of the view that the whole operation was to bring Khubeka to the shooting range. Do you want to comment on that? Is he wrong, or lying, or what is the position?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I wasn't at any stage informed of who would be coming and who wouldn't.

MR WILLS: But you would expect that the senior officer would know what to expect because he was the one who was making the decision?

MR WASSERMAN: Normally that would be Mr Chairman, but at the time of Mr Taylor making this statement he was very ill.

MR WILLS: Now my final question arising out of Adv Bosman's questioning was, why did you want to put a body that in your view, who's demise had been natural, in a war torn area?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman it was both, next, very, well close enough to the house.

MR WILLS: You see, I would have understood the logic of that decision if that body had been crippled in the sense that had it been badly beaten and badly broken, then it would be consistent with leaving it lying by the side of the road in a war torn area, otherwise you could have just left it, as the Chairman suggested, on a park bench anywhere, at The Wheel in Durban, for that matter.

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, not everybody that got beaten in Bambayi was beaten crippled.

MR WILLS: No further questions, Mr Chairperson. Sorry Mr Chairperson, yes and just also, just the comment that - possibly you want to make a comment on why Mr Taylor refers to this as a possible murder?

MR WASSERMAN: Where would that be Sir?

MR WILLS: On page 4 of his affidavit, in the heading Incident 9 Nthombi Khubeka - possible murder or culpable homicide. Would you like to comment on that?

MR WASSERMAN: I can't comment for Mr Taylor, sorry.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry Chairperson, just one small thing. Did you make any inquiries about whether this body had ever been recovered?

MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I made no enquiries whatsoever.

MR LAX: Any reason why?

MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, there was no reason for me to make inquiries and it happened and maybe it was finished.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you Mr Wasserman, that - sorry Mr Visser, do you have anything you'd like to....?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I was just going to point that out in re-examination Mr Chairman. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Taylor when he drew his application actually referred to a possible murder in

regard to Khubeka. This is really argument, but nothing in what he says and what has been put to you just now by Mr Wills, suggests that any murder took place.

MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: And also he denies that anyone ever assaulted her in his presence, that is at page 5. Now previously and it might have been you or someone else, gave evidence as to the mental state and his condition at the time, just prior to Mr Taylor dying...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm a little bit - approximately when did Mr Taylor die, of what did he die? Perhaps if you could just explain that for my own information?

MR VISSER: Could Mr Nel help us Mr Chairman?

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, Mr Taylor died approximately two years ago of brain cancer and at the time of drawing his application he was at that stage already very ill. I recall drawing his application with Senior Counsel, Adv Booyens in Pietermaritzburg and we had to stop because of him being tired and we had great difficulties in getting him to recollect certain incidents at certain times.

MR VISSER: But the date I think was October/November 1997, Mr Chairman. I thought Mr Nel might have a more accurate date.

MR NEL: I'm sorry, I don't have it at hand, but I can get that from the file and will have it for you in the morning Sir.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wasserman, that concludes your evidence. You may stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: We've now come to the end of today's hearing, I see it's quarter past four. As mentioned earlier, tomorrow morning we will be meeting here at half past eight in the morning in order to proceed for an inspection in loco, or inspections in loco. I do not know how long those inspections will take, but I would guestimate that we would probably be starting back here with the leading of evidence at approximately half past eleven or somewhere around there, I don't know, but as mentioned earlier, we will be meeting here at half past eight and I have been informed that there will be some arrangement for a kombi for members of the family who may be interested in going. I don't know if they'll be able to provide public transport for other persons beyond the family to go.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, before you rise, I don't know whether you want reading matter for tonight, because we have the statements of van der Westhuizen and our last witness available. It has been handed to our colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser, if we could get that now and then this will be received as Exhibit F, is it?

Yes, thank you. So we'll then adjourn until half past eight tomorrow morning.