CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Before we proceed with this Hearing, for the purposes of the record, I'm going to announce my name and I'm going to ask my colleagues to do the same and the respective representatives.

I'm Judge Ronnie Pillay and I chair this hearing.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm Francis Bosman a Member of the Amnesty Committee on this Panel.

ADV SIGODI: I'm Sibongile Sigodi. I'm a Member of the Amnesty Committee.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: You can sit while you're talking.

MR PAPIER: I'm Taswell Papier. I act on behalf of the applicant in this matter, Mr Fumanikile Booi.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence. Honourable Chairperson, perhaps it's appropriate at this stage just to mention the position of the victims. We were unable to locate the next of kin of the deceased, Mr Els, or Mr Moyese, who was a victim in this matter and the other victim, Mr Beeslaar was involved in this incident has elected not to participate in the proceedings. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What has been done to locate the first two mentioned victims?

MS PATEL: An ad was placed, I've got a copy of it, I just can't make out which newspaper it was placed in, but an ad was placed to try to get hold them and then our investigative unit, in terms of Mr Moyese, contacted the police and investigations were made through those Channels and he's apparently moved home quite a few times and we've since not been able to locate him. No-one knows whether he's presently employed either.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel, may I just ask, was the advertisement placed in an Afrikaans newspaper.

MS PATEL: I have an English copy here, unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, we're satisfied that the Commission has done sufficient to locate those victims. It's unfortunate that it was not successful. In regard to the third one you say that he's indicated that he's not willing to participate in these proceedings?

MS PATEL: That is indeed so, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I noticed that there are members of the public who have not been allowed or given any hearing aids, will the technician please see that they receive?

Yes, Mr Papier.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge. We are ready to proceed and to that end I call the applicant Mr Fumanikile Booi.

FUMANIKILE BOOI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Papier.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge, thank you Commissioners.

EXAMINATION BY MR PAPIER: Mr Booi you have applied for amnesty in respect of the death of Mr Nicholas Johannes Els who died on the 7th, round about the 7th of July 1990 in Nyanga, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Correct so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier at some time during the Hearing we would expect you instead of your client to indicate for which offences he is applying, given the fact that the niceties of law are not always understood by the man in the street.

MR PAPIER: Thank you. Thank you Judge. Now Mr Booi, you have submitted an application to the TRC which appears on pages 1 to 7 in the bundle, a copy of which you have in your possession as well, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Correct My Lord.

MR PAPIER: Is it correct that at the time of the incident, being the 7th of July 1990, you were a member of the African National Congress and in particular it's military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR BOOI: It's correctly so.

MR PAPIER: Can you briefly inform this Committee of your recruitment and involvement in MK prior to this incident?

MR BOOI: I was recruited into the underground structure, MK machinery, into the ANC in 1979 while I was residing in old Crossroads.

CHAIRPERSON: In?

MR BOOI: In old Crossroads.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Do you... Now in 1980, were you involved in the operations of MK at all?

MR BOOI: Yes, I was involved.

MR PAPIER: Can you just ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: When did you get into MK? You were recruited into the ANC in 1979.

MR BOOI: I was as well recruited into the underground structure of MK in the same year.

CHAIRPERSON: Same year?

MR BOOI: Yes, by Comrade Langa.

MR PAPIER: You can proceed.

MR BOOI: Yes, 1980 I became involved in the political activities of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: 19?

MR BOOI: 80.

CHAIRPERSON: 80?

MR BOOI: Yes. I was working with ANC members such as Oscar Mpetha, Stuurman, old stalwart of the MK and I was highly involved in Rand boycott as instructed by the organisation and also to organise the youth around the country, in the Western Cape at that time.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Now you were also in August 1980, you were detained with Oscar Mpetha and 17 others around Cape Town, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Yes, we were later detained and charged. The charges were later dropped from me in 1983, after 3 years.

CHAIRPERSON: You were detained - I don't follow that - when?

MR BOOI: I was detained together with the late comrade Oscar Mpetha and the 18 others in August 1980. I stayed in solitary confinement for the rest of 1980 up to 1981 under Section 6, the old law and then in 1981 I was formally on the 15th of April, charged with other co-accused of mine and then we were awaiting trial at Pollsmoor, refused bail for three years. After the three years I was acquitted.

MR PAPIER: What were the charges against you Mr Booi?

MR BOOI: The charges against us were two counts of murder and terrorism.

MR PAPIER: Now we would for purposes ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, were you acquitted or were the charges dropped?

MR BOOI: I was acquitted.

MR PAPIER: Now for purposes of this presentation of evidence we would just briefly go through Mr Booi's history with MK and then I'll of course get to the facts in issue. Now in ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Were you charged for any of the matters for which you apply for amnesty now?

MR BOOI: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then we can carry one.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge. Could you briefly tell us Mr Booi, in 1985 you joined the ranks of MK in Lesotho, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Yes, that is correct. I joined the ranks of MK in Lesotho, advised to by the Commander, Sipho. I arrived in Lesotho, I was deployed as a Political Commissar on a transit group and as a security screener for those who were coming from South Africa, to investigate whether there were no enemy agents among them. I later in 1986 left Lesotho for further military training. I went to Angola via Lusaka. I met Comrade Kiswane in Lusaka who asked me to work with him and report directly to him on those trained comrades in Angola who were ready and willing to be deployed inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: What rank did you have then?

MR BOOI: At that particular moment I was just a Commissar, a Political Commissar.

CHAIRPERSON: In Lesotho?

MR BOOI: Yes, in Lesotho and also I was working closely with our security structure in screening those who come from South Africa. If I may continue?

Comrade Chris Hani instructed me in Lusaka that on my arrival in Angola, I will meet many of comrades, in particular those coming from the Western Cape. I'll have to liaise with them and find out who are those who are willing to come back and fight inside the country.

He further instructed that I be sent to a special training camp in Pango, that is part of Angola where I was supposed to be doing military combat work, tactics, firearms, topography and engineering and intelligence as a ...(indistinct) command. That I did do for 6 months in Pango.

CHAIRPERSON: Did?

MR BOOI: In Pango in Angola. It's an ANC special camp in Angola.

CHAIRPERSON: By 1990 what rank had you attained?

MR BOOI: Unfortunately we in the MK, because we were guerrilla armed forces, we were not given our ranks until we were properly given in 1994 when we went for integration.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Let me ask you this then. In the operation in which Mr Els died, how did you fit into the structure then?

MR BOOI: I was a Commander of the unit.

MR PAPIER: Now if we could just contextualise that, Mr Booi, you say that on the 7th of July 1990 which is the date of the incident, you were back in the country and in particular in Cape Town?

MR BOOI: Yes, I was already back in the country.

MR PAPIER: Is it correct that you met with the late Chris Hani on that night?

MR BOOI: Yes, I met with Comrade Chris Hani.

MR PAPIER: What was the purpose of the meeting?

MR BOOI: Comrade Chris Hani arrived in Cape Town on the 6th of July.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

MR BOOI: He assembled all the underground units of MK to ...(indistinct) for a debriefing because of the pending talks of the ANC and the then government.

MR PAPIER: Yes, it was also the first time that he was going to be making a public address, delivering a public address in Cape Town, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Of course, it's correct, so the following day he was going to do a public address at NY47 in Guguletu. So Comrade Chris asked, gave us instruction to meet with him. After the meeting where we were later being given a mission to carry on.

MR PAPIER: What was the - I understand that you were appointed as the Commander of that unit.

MR BOOI: Yes, I was.

MR PAPIER: Who were the operatives in that unit?

MR BOOI: It was myself, it was Lincoln, pseudo name Lincoln, his real name Monde, it was Wiseman, pseudo name Wiseman, his real name Papama. Mabuya, I don't know his real name, but his pseudo name is Mabuya.

MR PAPIER: And where are these operatives now?

MR BOOI: Unfortunately all three of them have passed away during this course.

MR PAPIER: Yes. What was the purpose of the unit and what was its brief?

MR BOOI: The unit was briefed that there is information that there are askaris which have been instructed to assassinate the late Comrade Chris Hani before his address in Guguletu at NY49, while he's in Cape Town. Now my mission was to command this unit to counteract those askaris, if possible to kill them when I met with them.

MR PAPIER: What did you do as a result of this briefing?

MR BOOI: I was immediately ordered that I have to join the three other unit members, who were already in their car, then I was ordered to join them in that particular car.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

MR BOOI: To be as a Commander of the unit.

MR PAPIER: You proceeded, or before we get there, were you armed?

MR BOOI: Yes, all of us were armed. I was armed with Soviet made automatic pistol, five ammunition magazines, two hand grenades. Lincoln was armed with an AK47, Wiseman was armed with a Makarov pistol, Soviet made and Mabuya was also armed with a Makarov pistol, Soviet made.

MR PAPIER: I understand that you then proceeded ...(intervention).

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, can you just state what you were armed with, I couldn't get all that.

MR BOOI: I myself, I was armed with an automatic tasking pistol, Soviet made, Lincoln was armed with an AK47, Soviet made, Mabuya was armed with a pistol, a Makarov pistol, Soviet made, Wiseman was also armed with a Makarov Soviet made pistol, 9 mm.

MR PAPIER: Mr Booi, I understand that you then proceeded to Khayelitsha, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Yes, the information we had is that these askaris were based in Graceland in Khayelitsha then I joined the unit and we proceeded to the area in Khayelitsha to investigate their presence there.

MR PAPIER: Yes. I understand that you went there, they were not there and you received information that led you to Guguletu, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Yes. We went there, we found the house closed, we investigated, we found some information that the policeman who was staying here had left for NY47 in Guguletu, NY47. Then I commanded the unit to proceed immediately to NY47 because Chris was actually going to sleep around Guguletu that evening.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Can you tell the Committee what happened on your way to NY47 in Guguletu?

MR BOOI: We decided to take the Lansdowne road from Khayelitsha to cross through Nyanga East, ...(indistinct) on our way to Guguletu. When we got into Nyanga East, entering ...(indistinct), we just passed one street on our left-hand side, a second street, there was a riot police van parked next to the stadium.

MR PAPIER: At about what time was this, Mr Booi?

MR BOOI: It would have been probably past 12, past 1.

CHAIRPERSON: In the night?

MR BOOI: In the night.

MR PAPIER: The morning. Yes?

MR BOOI: This van's lights were put off.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me that stadium, would that be the same stadium where it was intended that Mr Hani would address the public?

MR BOOI: No, that was the stadium in Nyanga East, he was going to address in Guguletu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PAPIER: You proceeded past this riot police van and what happened thereafter?

MR BOOI:

MR PAPIER: Yes.

MR BOOI:

MR PAPIER: Continue.

MR BOOI: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Now Mr Booi, you subsequently established that Mr Els, Sgt Els had died, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Yes, in the morning of the 7th when I read the newspaper, Cape Times, I established one of the occupants of that car died and it was Sgt Els Khulu, as it was said in the paper. I regretted it because never was it our intention at that stage of negotiation to continue with assassination or killing any policemen and what.

MR PAPIER: Yes, now the following day the late Chris Hani delivered an address, the planned and scheduled address, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Yes.

MR PAPIER: He also made reference to this ambush, as you understood it?

MR BOOI: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Can you recall what he said about it?

MR BOOI: Yes, actually what Comrade Chris said on his address in NY49 Guguletu, he said "Since ever I arrived in South Africa and the organisation was involved in negotiation with the government we're repeatedly saying that askaris, some police force members, special units who were against the negotiation, were keeping on assassinating our comrades and all those things. The incident which happened in Nyanga is not an isolated incident to all the incidents which are happening all over the country at present."

MR PAPIER: Yes.

MR BOOI: So he further said that: "I congratulate the comrades, in particular the Commander, who managed to bring all his members, his unit members safely back from that particular ambush in Nyanga."

MR PAPIER: Is it correct that you were arrested for this incident in January 1992?

MR BOOI: It is correct.

MR PAPIER: You were kept in custody and were released on R10 000 bail at the Wynberg Regional Court, is that correct?

MR BOOI: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: Who testified at that bail application?

MR BOOI: On July 1992 when I was refused bail, Comrade Chris Hani himself, the late Comrade Chris Hani testified at my bail hearing at Wynberg Regional Court.

MR PAPIER: And I understand that he confirmed that you were acting under his orders, is that correct?

MR BOOI: Yes, he actually told the Magistrate that he is there in the court because I was on a political mission, under his command and his instruction and he believed whatever we've done, was under the political blanket of the ANC and the liberation movement Umkhonto weSizwe.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to listen to my question very carefully.

MR BOOI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: How did that incident provide any political advancement for your organisation?

MR BOOI: It advanced political advancement, (1) because the ANC get into negotiation with the government and the government was reluctant to commit itself fully to the negotiation, also underestimating the presence of MK unit inside the country. The skirmish itself actually sent a clear message that MK is inside the country and it is advancing its military wing because it is the first time that the police could report a high number of highly trained MK terrorists being in the same operation at the same time, inside Cape Town in particular. So that sent a panic button to the government there and put the ANC in a stronger position, also to say that despite the question that the government has promised that there won't be any further assassination on MK members and its leadership inside the country, but there was a continuity. In that regard it was politically motivated, in advancing the government.

MR PAPIER: Is it also correct that you were mandated to protect the leadership of the ANC and in particular Chris Hani?

MR BOOI: Yes. Actually after the unbanning of the ANC all the units which were based inside the country in particular in the Western Cape where the negotiations were taking place, Groote Schuur, we were given further mission to protect the leadership from prison and to protect those leadership who were attending this negotiation in Cape Town. Chris Hani was part of those comrades who were supposed to be protected by the units based in Cape Town at that time.

MR PAPIER: Now you have amongst others, been charged I understand Mr Booi, with possession of ammunition, with murder, attempted murder as contained in the draft charge sheets on pages 12, 13, 14, 15, yes pages 12 to 15 of the bundle. I understand that you are applying for amnesty in respect of all those charges and any related charges flowing from this incident?

MR BOOI: Correctly so.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Papier, I don't know whether I missed something, did you include charge number 1, or did you exclude that?

MR PAPIER: Charge number 1 can be excluded.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay. Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, whose car were you driving when you went on this mission?

MR BOOI: I was a passenger in a white Toyota Corolla.

ADV SIGODI: And whose car was that?

MR BOOI: Unfortunately it was a car driven by Comrade Wiseman, it was used by that unit.

ADV SIGODI: You have no knowledge where he got that car from?

MR BOOI: No, not at all, until I was told in court.

MR PAPIER: And so just to contextualise the question, Mr Booi, I understand that at the meeting with the late Chris Hani on the 6th, you had gotten to that meeting on your own means and it was there, if I understand you correctly, that you were ordered to join your other colleagues in the car.

MR BOOI: Yes. Actually what was happening, the unit, it's not my unit from Angola, I had my own unit. There were special units, many various units, I was just called for that special mission to go and join that unit, so I left my car and joined the unit in that car because they were all ready in securing the late Comrade Chris Hani, I was just to command them on the mission on that particular day, until the comrade left Cape Town then join my unit back.

ADV BOSMAN: So at what time did they pick you up?

MR BOOI: It might be, if I'm correct about 9, past 9 around that time, I never observed the time, but it was late in the evening.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR PAPIER: Now, Mr Booi, I understand that there a number of case reports and your photo and identikit was also displayed at police stations throughout the country. These two documents do not form part of the bundle, I beg your pardon for that Commissioners, I just received it this morning and I now beg leave to just hand in...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What is the purpose of you wanting to hand it in?

MR PAPIER: Judge, you will notice that in terms of the Act, my learned colleague requested certain information and there seemed to have been a doubt as to whether Mr Booi was in fact a member of MK.

CHAIRPERSON: He's testified to that.

MR PAPIER: I withdraw the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, if there's a question of dispute that arises, maybe then we can enter into this exercise.

MR PAPIER: As it pleases the Committee. Thank you, I have no further questions.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Just for the record, Mr Booi has referred to a previous matter where he was arrested, charged and then acquitted. It is in fact one of the - well that specific incident that he was acquitted on, is an incident we heard last week, the Beaton and the Jansen incident, he was one of the co-accused in that matter. And then just a couple of clarifying questions Mr Booi. You stated that when you went to report back to Chris Hani, you informed him that you were ambushed by askaris.

MR BOOI: Yes.

MS PATEL: But the policemen who were shot and were injured were definitely not askaris and they were in fact all white.

MR BOOI: I won't agree with you in that because the askaris are not only, were not only the unit of those soldier who deserted from MK. What the then government did on these operation forces, it took a couple of specialised, in particular white males in the police, in the army and formed a special unit which has been tracking down MK cadres around the country and assassinating some high leadership members. They were not of any colour, but they were based - they were not only from the ranks of MK, we dubbed them all as askaris, because they were doing the same mission and what I further say, that ordinary police don't use conventional arms in a normal urban area. The presence of sub-machine guns was a clear indication that this is part of the Special Force which will be assembled to assassinate and delay the talks inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the askaris were being used in that system of destabilising the negotiations?

MR BOOI: Of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say so?

MR BOOI: Because the askaris and some of the Special Force members in the government were not necessarily supporting the ...(indistinct) negotiation and further, you have to understand that when the government and the ANC started negotiation, there were still skirmishes which were happening between the two armed forces and those skirmishes were always involved with askaris, Special Units, MK forces around the country until late 1993, before the election actually. Some of those sinister forces are actually those who participated in assassinating Comrade Chris Hani, that far the skirmishes had been going, so they were not of any colour.

MS PATEL: Well perhaps your understanding of the term askari is not the normal understanding that we have here of an askari being a turned liberation or MK, PAC person who would then be turned and then used by the Security Forces against the liberation movements, but I'll take it no further.

MR BOOI: No, I don't disagree with you in that but I'm just going further that they were not operating on their own solely as the turned guerrillas of APLA and MK but they were operating under the command of white policemen and soldiers as a group of askaris, so you dubbed them all as askaris when they operate in that fashion because they were no longer ordinary police which are supposed to maintain law and order in the country, but they have special missions of assignment.

MS PATEL: ...Those special assignments would be what, can you just clarify that for me please?

MR BOOI: (1) it will be to take down the leadership of the political organisations, that means ranging from Cosatu, SACP, ANC, the UDF at that stage, their missions were either to assassinate some to the leaders, also to assassinate activists, they were highly trained to track down MK operatives inside the country at that time, those were their missions. They were also crossing borders outside the boundaries of South Africa, carrying this mission.

MS PATEL: Alright. Did you notice that the persons who were injured, the policemen, were in their normal uniforms, that they weren't plain-clothed?

MR BOOI: They were not in plain clothes. I said that they were in camouflage. It was not the blue uniform of the police, but it was a camouflage similar to that of the army, worn by the army.

MS PATEL: Alright. Just to go to the specifics of the incident, you say as you slowed down and the policeman had indicated that you must stop, they then passed you.

MR BOOI: Yes.

MS PATEL: And what happened after that? Did the policemen come to you first, to your vehicle, or what?

MR BOOI: When we parked our vehicle, they just slanted in front of the car on the right fender, their right fender was closing our right fender and one policeman, the one who was seated on the left, he jumped out of the car carrying a gun in his hand. The second policeman jumped out of the car, carrying an Uzzi on his right-hand side.

MS PATEL : Okay. Now I just want to put Mr Beeslaar's version to you. Mr Beeslaar is one of the people who was injured in the incident. He states that, it's in Afrikaans, so I'm just going to read it in Afrikaans, the translation will come through to you.

CHAIRPERSON: What page?

MS PATEL: Page 17 Honourable Chairperson.

What is your comment on his version? His version is in fact the same version as that of Mr Moyese as well.

MR BOOI: Before I comment on his version, I just want to ask the Committee to understand that when this case was prepared against me in 1992, it was prepared for the sole purpose that I have to be sentenced, but if you can consult them today to tell the truth of what is happening, they'll give you a different version. This is the way how we were always being sentenced, that the policemen have always been the best in what, but coming to your question, in his version, I ordered my comrades in the car that no-one should get out of the car until it is standing, because we didn't know how many people were there at the back of the car and right at that present moment we had no intention to shoot anybody if they were police. My decision came only when I became convinced that these are not police.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think would have happened if you had decided they were police?

MR BOOI: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened if you thought they were really police?

MR BOOI: At that present moment ourselves and the government had a mutual understanding that we are inside the country, we are armed, the police had that knowledge. They had instructions that when you arrest MK cadres, they will proceed to the police and we'll inform our own Commanders and then that will be a negotiation between them.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so it wasn't a question that you would be arrested and charged if found in possession of firearms and so forth?

MR BOOI: Then that will be breaching the agreements with them because government knew that we are armed and we are inside the country.

MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there's just one point I want to check and it will be my last. Will you grant me a moment? No, thank you Chairperson, it's in fact confirmed that the policemen had an Uzzi in their possession in terms of the documents before us. Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Papier?

MR PAPIER: I have no re-examination thank you Judge.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Booi, what was the outcome of these charges which were brought against you?

MR BOOI: The case was withdrawn in 1992, November, in the Cape Town Supreme Court.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes and there's just one matter that still puzzles me a bit. Did I understand you correctly that you were picked up at 9 o'clock that evening, round about 9?

MR BOOI: I say round about that time, I'm not quite sure about the time, but it was late in the evening, because we had our briefings in Fawu, starting from 8 o'clock so it might be past 9, 10 or whatever it is.

ADV BOSMAN: What would you say the latest would have been?

MR BOOI: The latest can be because we actually arrived in Nyanga at 1 in the morning. I say it could be past 11 to 12, when we had our last briefing.

ADV BOSMAN: Now why I'm asking you this questions it that according to the charge sheet the car was taken from this Mrs Thomas at ten past eleven. Where would you say you were at ten past eleven?

MR BOOI: No, I was using my own car. I never had any knowledge of any car being taken from a Mr Thomas.

ADV BOSMAN: This car was taken in Lansdowne Road, where were you picked up?

MR BOOI: I was picked up in Khayelitsha.

ADV BOSMAN: How far is that from Lansdowne Road and Hanover Park Avenue?

MR BOOI: I drive from Fawu in Guguletu with my unit to join Comrade Chris Hani in Khayelitsha, inside Khayelitsha next to Khaye Bazaar that is inside, in the middle of Khayelitsha, far away from Lansdowne Road.

ADV BOSMAN: So then you must have been picked up round about 12 o'clock.

MR BOOI: Yes, it's what I'm saying, I'm not quite sure in the incident, but I know it was late at night.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright. Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: No, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, you were arrested the day after this incident.

MR BOOI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Same day?

MR BOOI: I was not arrested the day after the incident, I was only arrested in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: What were your exact instructions in respect of askaris?

MR BOOI: It's to track them down where they are and possibly to stop them in their action, that means by the deed of killing them before they can get to the late Comrade Chris Hani.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say when that instruction was issued, it was designed to refer to askaris in the general terms, as you define it now.

MR BOOI: Yes, because we went specific, I asked Comrade Chris Hani that we will be now carrying weapons in the car and we are busy negotiation, what will be the consequences when we are confronted by police. His first response is that not at any stage should I allow that unit to be arrested or assassinated because they are here on missions and they are here to observe whether the negotiation is going forward or what. I have to protect them as a Commander. Secondly, I must understand that within the forces of the government, that includes police, Special Units and askaris, turned MK cadres and what, they are out there to derail the negotiations, so in no certain circumstances should we play when we met them, we must know that they're armed and they're dangerous, they're out to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: As son as you saw or identified these people who came out of the police vehicle, you saw that they were askaris in the general terms, as you say and that's when you took the action.

MR BOOI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You took the action as a result of instructions?

MR BOOI: Yes, I say that, that is one part of it. I just want to say that from the moment I saw this van, a question mark come into my mind. In the middle of the night there's a van parked, his lights off, next to a stadium in a dark corner. Immediately when we pass, cars were in front of us but when our car passed they put on their lights and immediately follow us. To my mind comes up that the first thing I thought, have these people been waiting for us all along and then that's why I took the decision of trying to make sure they are really following us or not but taking all these corners to make sure, have we been expected here.

And I further noticed, I said that when we turned into Ems Drive, one of the tactics which normally happen when you are being ambushed and assassinated, these units won't assassinate in front of the public next to houses, they look for dark places, isolated places where nobody will be able to point a finger and say this one was there and that and it's exactly how it happened, they put us into a dark corner. They could have stopped us long ago, we were not on high speed, but it was clear to me when I took the decision, that these people were out to kill us and if I didn't shoot it means all of us could have been dead today.

CHAIRPERSON: What effect would that have had on your MK unit in Cape Town?

MR BOOI: First of all, in the unit in MK, there are going to be two mixed feelings, (1) some will take decision to continue with their missions which they designated for inside the country, secondly the leadership, some leadership members would also feel that the government has not been serious in negotiation, there could be an impact and also the masses, because we've been known around the streets of Cape Town as three of us were coming from Cape Town, the masses, the people outside there could have reacted in the same manner, maybe taking up to the street or whatever way it is and it could have been a high loss for the MK because all of us were belonging to the Special Ops Unit and it is a highly trained unit, to lose four highly trained members of your force.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore it would have politically reduced the effectiveness of MK?

MR BOOI: Well, maybe one should, can also assume that, you see, maybe one should not, you see? It could have depended on the thinking at that particular time.

CHAIRPERSON: If Special Ops lost four highly trained combatants, it should or must reduce.

MR BOOI: Yes, it's a blow to MK.

CHAIRPERSON: A political blow.

MR BOOI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say in your younger days you were involved in rent boycotts and boycotts of service pavements etc.

MR BOOI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Looks like you did a good job.

MR BOOI: I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there no way to reverse it now? Is there no way we can reverse that mentality?

MR BOOI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: We can't reverse it now today?

MR BOOI: Of rent boycott and what?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOI: Actually today I won't be rent boycotting and going out to the community as I've since whenever, since I've come back. People go and pay the services, people go and support the government, people go and stop the crime on the street because those day we were fighting, today we are supposed to reconstruct the country and build unity across the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We will reserve our decision on this matter. I thank you. Mr Papier, I omitted to give you a chance to address but perhaps I must ask Ms Patel first if she has anything to say.

MS PATEL: No, I'll leave it in your capable hands, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then I don't think it's necessary to hear you.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge, thank you Commissioners.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen. Before we proceed, I'm Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues and the different representatives to announce themselves for the purposes of the record.

ADV SIGODI: I'm Sibongile Sigodi, I'm an Amnesty Committee Member.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm Francis Bosman, I'm an Amnesty Committee Member on this Panel.

MR PAPIER: I'm Taswell Papier, an attorney from Papier, Charles Inc., acting on behalf of the applicants in this matter, Sidney Hendricks, Moegamat Aneez Salie and Vanessa Rhoda November.

MS PATEL: Thank you. Ramula Patel, Leader of the Evidence. If I may at this stage mention, Honourable Chairperson, if I may at this stage mention that the victim Moegamat Nurudien Bartlett is present and he has no objection, or he's not opposing the application.

CHAIRPERSON: What are his full names?

MS PATEL: It's Moegamat Nurudien Bartlett.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that Moegamat?

MS PATEL: M-O-E-G-A-M-A-T Nurudien is spelled N-U-R-U-D-I-E-N

CHAIRPERSON: Bartlett?

MS PATEL: Yes, with a double t at the end. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge. I will now call Sydney Hendricks to the stand. He elects to give his evidence in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would I find his application, on page?

MR PAPIER: On page 20.

SIDNEY HENDRICKS: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge, Commissioners. Mr Hendricks, this is an application. You are applying for amnesty with regard to an incident that arose on the 28th of September 1998, where a bomb was detonated at the Bontheuwel Rent office, is that correct?

MR HENDRICKS: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: Now, is it correct that you were the Commander of the Ashley Kriel Detachments Bontheuwel Unit at the time of this incident, the 28th of September 1988?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Now where were you recruited, or when were you recruited?

MR HENDRICKS: I was recruited in late 1987 but my political involvement goes long before that time, but I was recruited in 1987.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Who was all part of this unit?

MR HENDRICKS: It was me, myself, Vanessa and the late Colin Williams.

MR PAPIER: Is this Vanessa November, the other applicant in this matter?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Three of you?

MR HENDRICKS: Only the three of us, we formed the unit, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you just repeat them please?

MR HENDRICKS: The three of us, Vanessa November, Sidney Hendricks, that's myself and the late Colin Williams.

MR PAPIER: Now, as indicated, you were the Commander of this cell or this unit, is that correct?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes, I was the Commander of the unit.

MR PAPIER: Now I understand that the Bontheuwel Rent Office was identified as a target for a limpet mine attack, is that correct?

MR HENDRICKS: That was correct, yes.

MR PAPIER: Under whose overall command were you acting?

MR HENDRICKS: I was acting under the overall command of Aneez Salie.

MR PAPIER: Who is also an applicant in this, the Hearing today, is that correct?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Now your affidavit before this Committee makes reference to, on page 53, paragraph 4, that"

I understand that's a typing error, is that correct?

MR HENDRICKS: That is correct, yes.

MR PAPIER: What is the correct date?

MR HENDRICKS: The correct date is the 28th of September 1988.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Now can you in fact tell this Commission or Committee what happened on the 28th of September 1988 in relation to the Bontheuwel Rent Office?

MR HENDRICKS: Okay.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Why was the Bontheuwel ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Over what period was the reconnaissance take place? What period?

MR HENDRICKS: The period, we used three weeks to do reconnaissance on the Rent Office and that means by loitering at night, loitering around the area for the time and establishing who uses, if they use it and we have established that, that the street is not used at night.

MR PAPIER: Why was the Bontheuwel Rent Office chosen?

MR HENDRICKS: The Bontheuwel Rent Office was chosen because we have seen it as a means to carry out the political objectives of our unit and that was, we have seen that the Rent Office was an oppressive mechanism used by the State and that's why we have identified the Rent Office. We also wanted to spark off a rent boycott and the local councillor was also using the Rent Office and that's why we decided on the Rent Office as a target.

MR PAPIER: I understand that you were also, or where were you living at the time?

MR HENDRICKS: I was living in Bontheuwel. I am still living in Bontheuwel.

MR PAPIER: Yes. So I understand that you then did the reconnaissance and on the night of the 28th of September, what happened?

MR HENDRICKS: On the night of the 28th of September, myself, the late Colin Williams and Vanessa, we proceeded to the Rent Office and then we secured the area by seeing that it is quite safe and it is not used, we established that first, because if we found out that the area was being used then we would have cancelled the operation.

MR PAPIER: Yes, so it was you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by used?

MR HENDRICKS: By used I mean, nobody walked in Bontheuwel, the streets are quite empty at night and by used I mean, there are only certain streets that are used, nobody uses the street by the Rent Office, because that street was quite dark and there's nothing happening in that vicinity.

MR PAPIER: Yes. So I understand that it was your instruction to avoid any injury to any member of the public, or any person, is that correct?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Now were you in possession of any ammunition?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes, I was in possession of a cache which I got the limpet mine from.

MR PAPIER: Yes and can you tell us what happened? You proceeded to the Rent Office with Vanessa and with the late Colin Williams, armed with the limpet mine.

MR HENDRICKS: Yes, after securing the area and seeing that it's safe, we proceeded to prime the limpet mine and we then placed it at the door of the Rent Office and then we respectively went to our homes.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Now who primed the limpet mine?

MR HENDRICKS: The limpet mine was primed by Colin Williams.

MR PAPIER: Yes and how was it placed at the door?

MR HENDRICKS: It was placed at the door on its side. I think we used a milk carton and we placed it on its side.

MR PAPIER: You say you used a milk carton, it was an empty milk carton, is that correct?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes.

MR PAPIER: And where was the limpet mine placed?

MR HENDRICKS: At the front door of the Rent Office.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Was it placed in this milk carton?

MR HENDRICKS: In the milk carton, yes.

MR PAPIER: I see. What happened thereafter?

MR HENDRICKS: After we primed the limpet mine, we then went to our separate homes.

MR PAPIER: Yes. I understand that you established thereafter that the limpet mine was detonated and Mr Bartlett, Mr Nurudien Bartlett was unfortunately injured, is that correct?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes, that is correct and we deeply regret that Mr Bartlett was injured in this incident because it wasn't our intention for anybody to get hurt in the incident and it's only afterwards that we found out that he had gotten hurt in the incident.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Now what was you overall objective?

MR HENDRICKS: As I've said ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hendricks can you just - this limpet mine that you talk about, can you describe it for us?

MR HENDRICKS: The limpet mine that we used was a mini limpet mine, the colour was brown. Yes, it's some time ago that we used the mini limpet mine.

CHAIRPERSON: How would it be detonated?

MR HENDRICKS: How would it be detonated? First you have your ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about that one.

MR HENDRICKS: The mini one?

CHAIRPERSON: That particular bomb.

MR HENDRICKS: I'll explain. First you have your detonator and then you have your fuse and then you put in a plate, that would be your timing device and you slip in your plate and then you screw a detonator in, we usually for safety measures, we would pull the detonator to see that there's nothing faulty with the device, with the detonator and then we would screw in our fuse and then at the scene at the last minute then we place the detonator in the mini limpet mine, that is how we would go about it.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long was the, what size timing device, or what colour timing device was inserted?

MR HENDRICKS: I think that we have used the timing device that it should have gone off quite late. I think we used the thickest plate, I think that was the red one, but I'm not quite sure, but I think that device had to be detonated some early time the next morning.

MR PAPIER: In the early hours of the morning?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge. Now, what was your overall objective in executing this operation?

MR HENDRICKS: As I have said, our objective was politically motivated, it was to further, to carry out the objectives of the ANC Military wing, MK, it was to spark off a rent boycott and we have seen the Rent Office as an oppressive structure in our area and we felt that it had to be destroyed and it was also to make our areas more ungovernable and to bring the struggle closer to the people because we had lost a lot of comrades in the Bontheuwel area that were detained and we wanted to stay there.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Now you subsequently established that Mr Bartlett was injured. Have you been to visit the family at all?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes, we have been to visit the family. We have spoken to them.

MR PAPIER: When was that?

MR HENDRICKS: That was about two years ago.

MR PAPIER: 1997?

MR HENDRICKS: 1997 yes. We spoke to them and we told them that it was us that placed the limpet mine at the Rent Office and that we deeply regret that Mr Bartlett was injured in the incident and we have come to ask their forgiveness and they said that they are going to forgive us and we have made our peace with them.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Do you know how Mr Bartlett got injured?

MR HENDRICKS: From newspaper reports and what I've heard from on the radio.

MR PAPIER: Yes. And it is on record that Mr Bartlett apparently picked the carton up and threw it away and then it was detonated, is that your understanding of the position as well?

MR PAPIER: I think so, but I can't say for sure how he got injured, but I think that he must have tampered with the device or something.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Thank you Judge, thank you Commissioners I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, before I interrupted you, you had asked a question which required the applicant to stand and display something. Am I correct?

MR PAPIER: No, Judge, I think he misunderstood me. I was in the process of, it wasn't my request to get him to demonstrate something. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hendricks, I want you to explain something. Were you trained in the use of explosives?

MR HENDRICKS: I was trained in the use of explosives.

CHAIRPERSON: To what extent?

MR HENDRICKS: I was trained, the military engineering, that was how to activate a limpet mine, I was trained how to defuse it again. I was trained in the inside mechanisms of the device, how it worked. That we call military engineering. I was trained in firearms. I was trained politically. I was trained.

CHAIRPERSON: In your training, did you come across a device which was planted, for example, in the sand and would only explode by detonation at the release of a plunger of some sort?

MR HENDRICKS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know what you call that?

MR HENDRICKS: That would be called something that you set, a mine that you set off by stepping on it.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know or you can't remember?

MR HENDRICKS: I can't remember. But I wasn't trained in ...

CHAIRPERSON: Now who was the person that trained you?

MR HENDRICKS: I was trained by the late Anton Frans and Melvin Bruintjies.

CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the explosives that you explained today, you know what they taught you.

MR HENDRICKS: Yes. I also ...

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR HENDRICKS: I also had a training kit, like I had a whole survival pack, a training kit, AK, a Makarov and hand grenades which were in my possession.

CHAIRPERSON: ...survival kit to mean. Anything else?

MR PAPIER: I have no further questions.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I'll be brief.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: You say that "We took the decision to identify the target". Who specifically is we?

MR HENDRICKS: We would be the unit, that's me, Colin and Vanessa and then we had to report it to Aneez Salie, who had to give the overall.

MS PATEL: And was this done prior to the operation?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes.

MS PATEL: Can I just ask you if, you say the limpet mine was placed in a milk carton. If somebody picked it up, would it detonate, or would it have to fall, or how? Can you just give us more detail on what would cause it to go off?

MR HENDRICKS: Like I said, if somebody tampered with it, it could go off. If somebody dropped it, it could also go off.

MS PATEL: Alright. Here Mr Bartlett says he picked the carton up and dropped it and as a result of that it exploded. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

MR PAPIER: Thank you, Judge, I have no further questions. No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hendricks was that your first experience at setting up a device like that?

MR PAPIER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times before have you done so?

MR HENDRICKS: I can't remember, but I've been actively, from 87 I've been actively, I can't say how many operations I carried out before, but I've been actively, for the whole period I've been actively involved in carrying out operations.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask you something. I don't know to what extent the answer will affect the decision. When you planted, or when the three of you planted this device in a carton and left it there at the front door, surely you must have realised a child or someone could come pick it up?

MR HENDRICKS: Your Honour, as I've said that we had made sure that nobody used that area.

CHAIRPERSON: And if, well it is hardly likely in terms of your reconnaissance, someone did come pick it up. Do you follow what I'm saying?

MR HENDRICKS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me lead on to where I'm getting to. Why didn't you think it necessary then to put it somewhere you could do as much damage as you wanted to to the building without risking somebody picking it up? Stick it somewhere else, not at the front door, where it's easily accessible to the public. Did it not cross your mind?

MR HENDRICKS: We wanted to do maximum damage to the building. If we had suspected that anybody could have gotten injured, I know what you're saying, that anybody could have gotten injured, we would have aborted the mission, if we had seen that that night there were too many people around in the area, then we would have aborted the mission.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that you did everything necessary to minimise the risk. All I'm asking is, why wasn't the bomb placed somewhere else, which would have given you the same results?

MR HENDRICKS: The unit had decided that the front door was ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: The place to put it.

MR HENDRICKS: The place to put it to have a greater damage on the building.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you find out that somebody was in fact injured?

MR HENDRICKS: I can't remember. I think it was via the radio or early the next morning, or that same night I think which we then reported.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to break for lunch now. We'll adjourn till 2 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Papier.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge, Commissioners. I call Vanessa November. Her application appears on page 14 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mrs or Miss?

MS NOVEMBER: Miss.

VANESSA RHODA NOVEMBER: (sworn states)

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge.

EXAMINATION BY MR PAPIER: Now Ms November, you’ve also applied for amnesty in respect of a bomb blast that occurred at the Bontheuwel Rent Office on the 28th September 1988, where Mr Moegamat Nurudien Bartlett was injured, is that correct?

MS NOVEMBER: That's correct.

MR PAPIER: I understand that you were a member of the Bontheuwel unit of the Ashley Kriel Detachment and were recruited by Colleen Williams in 1987, is that correct?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Now you've heard the evidence of Sidney Hendricks who testified before you and he indicated that the unit consisted of himself, Sidney Hendricks, the late Colleen Williams and yourself, is that correct?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Now, is it correct that you participated in the operation at the Bontheuwel Rent Office on the 28th of September 1988, as described by Sidney?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes, it's correct.

MR PAPIER: Can you tell the Commission what exactly you did on that night?

MS NOVEMBER: On that night my main task was to help with security surveillance and also to accompany my comrades prior to the operation that night.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms November, sorry to, I'd forgotten to ask you, are you comfortable with English?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes it's fine.

CHAIRPERSON: If you want to talk Afrikaans or any other language please tell us.

MS NOVEMBER: No, it's fine.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge. Now you say you were responsible for security and reconnaissance.

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: It is also so that your affidavit makes mention of the year 1998 instead of 1988 and I understand that's a typing error, is that correct?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Now you were a trained member of the Bontheuwel Unit of the Ashley Kriel Detachment, is that correct?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Who trained you?

MS NOVEMBER: I was trained by the late Colleen Williams and Sidney Hendricks.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Now what time approximately was the limpet mine placed at the Bontheuwel Rent Office on that night of the 28th?

MS NOVEMBER: It was placed shortly after 8 p.m. that night.

MR PAPIER: Yes and can you describe the area where the limpet mine was placed?

MS NOVEMBER: The area was quite dark. It had poor lighting in that area and it was placed in front of the door and mostly we, what we'd also noticed in that area, normally the litter gathers around the doorway and the milk carton was also part of the litter, like it was dirty and people were - yes, so I don't think anybody would have just picked it up.

MR PAPIER: Yes. So if I understand you correctly, there was litter lying there and the carton was also part of the litter. We understand from Sidney's evidence that the limpet mine was placed in this carton and then placed at the door. Was this amongst the rest of the litter as well?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes, partly with the litter.

MR PAPIER: In your opinion, was there any prospect of any person coming to scratch in that litter after 8, after it was planted there?

MS NOVEMBER: Definitely not, because of the poor lighting in the area and also the danger in that, at that time, we still had problems with gangsters in the area. It was like a no-go danger area for people from the area to go because we grew up there and we used to be in that area quite a lot.

MR PAPIER: Yes. And so you lived in the area at the time as well.

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: And you were familiar with the area as well?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: You were also part of the reconnaissance preceding the planting of the limpet mine, is that correct?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: And this was also in accordance with your observations that people would not frequent this place after 8?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes, that's correct.

MR PAPIER: Now in what capacity were you acting on the night of the 28th of September?

MS NOVEMBER: In my capacity as an MK member of the MK and under the command of Sidney Hendricks and we received our instruction from the Detachment, under the command of Aneez Salie.

MR PAPIER: Yes. I understand that you too established after the incident that Mr Bartlett was injured.

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Mr Hendricks testified that you had been to visit the family in 1997. Were you also part of that group?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes and we also mostly went there to inform the family that we were part of the operation that night and also to answer any questions they want to know or to ease their minds of what happened, or what caused the incident to happen to their son and their brother and also to request their forgiveness.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Thank you Judge, I have no further questions.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no questions.

ADV SIGODI: Your training as an MK person, were you also trained in the use of the hand grenade, the use of these limpet mines?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes at that stage, yes.

ADV SIGODI: When did this training start?

MS NOVEMBER: In 87.

ADV SIGODI: And how long had you been trained, over what period? How intensive was this training?

MS NOVEMBER: We were trained over weekends and mostly over weekends two days and then also if we needed to do it ourselves, we had the kit in the area, which Sidney Hendricks mentioned, we could go and experiment and learn to know more about the explosive, because we had it available.

ADV SIGODI: Were you in matric at this time? Were you a scholar?

MS NOVEMBER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which standard?

ADV SIGODI: What standard were you in?

MS NOVEMBER: In standard 8, I think, either standard 8 or 9.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you embark on this mission?

MS NOVEMBER: Due to comrades in the area that were detained and also due to the oppression in the area that came from the NP members, well from the Rent Office and that was one of the places that we saw as a target at that time around and also to spark off the rent boycott because all the other areas also were working on rent boycott, so we wanted to make that clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge. I now call Aneez Salie.

MOEGAMAT ANEEZ SALIE: (sworn states)

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge, Thank you Commissioners.

EXAMINATION BY MR PAPIER: Mr Salie, you have also applied for amnesty in respect of the incident that occurred on the 28th of September 1988 and the Bontheuwel Municipal Rent Office, where Mr Bartlett, Nurudien was injured, is that correct?

MR SALIE: That's correct.

MR PAPIER: You were also the Commander of the Ashley Kriel Detachment of the ANC's military wing, MK, is that correct, at the time?

MR SALIE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean the overall, Regional Commander or District Commander?

MR SALIE: Regional, Your Honour, we operated in the Western Cape but largely the Peninsula.

MR PAPIER: And is it correct that the Ashley Kriel Bontheuwel unit formed part of the so-called cells or a unit within your Detachment, is that correct?

MR SALIE: That's correct.

MR PAPIER: Now when were you recruited, Mr Salie?

MR SALIE: I was recruited in early 1985.

MR PAPIER: And can you give the Commission a brief history of your involvement in MK after that?

MR SALIE: Well, soon after Easter, I think it was, in 1985, I was recruited by one Leo Meyer. Leo Meyer was killed in the SADF operation into Lesotho. He was killed with his wife in the presence of their child of course. I was recruited and trained by Leo Meyer and I was trained together with Shirley Gunn and the two of us, Shirley Gunn and I formed a unit of MK in 1985. Shirley was detained on the 28th of August 1985 and sometime, I think the 24th or the 23rd of November or thereabouts, there was, the police had put out a ransom for me, they were looking for me and I was eventually forced to leave the country which I did on the 3rd of February 1986 illegally to Botswana. I trained in Angola and was deployed back into Cape Town, I think it was round about April 1987.

MR PAPIER: Where did you train in Angola?

MR SALIE: I trained at the David Rapkin centre which is commonly known as Pango in a town in the North West of Angola, called Pango.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Now when you returned to Cape Town in 1987, what was your position? What were you deployed to do?

MR SALIE: Well initially I was meant to be part of the Ashley Forbes Detachment. I had trained with Ashley Forbes and Peter Jacobs in Pango and they had preceded me and Ashley Kriel was part of that Detachment too. Ashley Kriel and I had stayed together, we'd come down to Botswana together and Ashley had left before me because I had other tasks to do, but I was meant to be part of the Ashley Forbes Unit or Detachment, rather. When I came back they unfortunately didn't make contact at the prearranged time and they were detained eventually, all of them, as you know and then I was instructed to be part of the Tony Yengeni Detachment and Tony Yengeni was detained on the day he was supposed to make contact with me and then thereafter we were asked to constitute the Ashley Kriel Detachment with myself and Shirley Gunn as the co-Commanders of the Ashley Kriel Detachment.

CHAIRPERSON: It sounds to me like in that way you worked yourself up to be in the command of the Western Cape.

MR SALIE: With due respect, in the military you can't really work your way up.

CHAIRPERSON: By whatever means, you found yourself in the position of Commander?

MR SALIE: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: By 1990, what position did you hold?

MR SALIE: I was still the Detachment Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you proceed from then? How did you play a part in the incident we are busy with here? I'm sorry, 88.

MR SALIE: Your Honour, my job as the Commander of the Detachment was to plan co-ordinated attacks. The blast at the Bontheuwel Rent Office happened simultaneously with two other blasts in the Peninsula that night and it was aimed at showing opposition to the Municipal elections, it was aimed at restoring MK's presence, ANC's presence in Bontheuwel in particular. So my role as the Detachment Commander was to plan operations in the furtherance of the aims of the ANC and MK and my job was also to procure the material for those operations. My job was to secure communication, to check on the safety, to be in charge of the logistics, the intelligence, all the normal duties that the Commander of such Detachment would have.

MR PAPIER: Yes, who did you report to Mr Salie?

MR SALIE: Your Honour, we reported to James Mkulu in Botswana. James, as you know was the past Secretary General of the Western Cape here, he's now a member of parliament and James reported to Chris Hani so we reported to Chris Hani through James, through Botswana.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Now I think similarly in your affidavit you referred to the incident occurring in 1998 due to a typing error, it should be 1988, is that correct?

MR SALIE: That's correct.

MR PAPIER: Now, I understand that you were also instrumental in the reconnaissance of the Bontheuwel area, is that correct?

MR SALIE: Yes, I participated in that.

MR PAPIER: And can you contextualise for the Committee why the location of the limpet mine?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you participate in the reconnaissance of the post office in this particular incident?

MR PAPIER: Rent Office.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the Rent Office?

MR SALIE: I did, Your Honour. Would you like me to explain that?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, I just wanted to know whether you participated in it?

MR SALIE: Yes, I did. We basically, when we received intelligence reports on possible targets, we checked it out very, very thoroughly. We had people who did that. I wasn't meant to do that. I wasn't meant to be operational in that way, but I did it none the less. I went to go and double check the information and of course we grew up in those areas, Your Honour, I stayed in Athlone before I went into the underground, so we knew the area very intimately and Vanessa and them grew up there. We know that target like the back of our hands. It's not as if we came from outside, we chose a target that was convenient, the reconnaissance was really - I mean it wasn't a target that was unfamiliar, it was the Rent Office that they used to go pay the rent anyway.

MR PAPIER: And the specific location of the door where the limpet mine was placed?

MR SALIE: Right, Your Honour, we attempted to destroy the building completely, which is why we added thermite to the charge and thermite, under certain circumstances, would cause a fire, which is why unfortunately Bartlett the victim suffered such severe burns. So our intention was to burn down the entire building with the use of this limpet, so it was placed strategically at the double wooden doors to the entrance of the building so that the force of the blast and the thermite would be directed into the building and as you previously heard, the idea was to disguise it amongst the rubble or the litter there. The wind blows terribly in those areas there in Bontheuwel and the litter collected at the doorway of the Rent Office, so this was a disused milk carton, it was part of the litter that was collected, that the wind would have blown towards the door of the Rent Office and it's also so disguised because there was a very heavy Security Force presence there. They were patrolling the areas all the time, they knew that these blasts were taking place, they knew Bontheuwel Rent Office was a target, so there were a lot of cops around, so it was well-disguised amongst that litter.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there another place where that bomb could have been placed, at possibly the same results?

MR SALIE: No Your Honour, that building, the windows had wire mesh, wire grills around it and the front door was the only door, double door. It wouldn't have made any sense operationally and in terms of our objective, to have placed that limpet anywhere else.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no back door?

MR SALIE: No Your Honour. The front were wooden double doors, Your Honour. Remember we had wanted to cause an explosion. The back door wasn't that accessible, there was a grill, there were all those types of things. The front door was really, if you would pardon the expression, it was the perfect place for us to be and it wouldn't have made it, if we had placed it at the back of the sides. It wouldn't have made it less dangerous Your Honour. It wouldn't have meant that there was a greater likelihood or a less of a likelihood of something going wrong had we placed it at the back or at the sides. It was really immaterial Your Honour.

MR PAPIER: In your view, Mr Salie, was there any prospect of placing any member of the public at risk by selecting and choosing that specific spot?

MR SALIE: Your Honour, no. The one issue we emphasised very, very much with all the operatives was to avoid civilian casualties. We were extremely, extremely insistent on that and they knew, the operatives knew that they would, that whatever they did, however they conducted themselves as they went through the operation, that they knew the instructions were that if there was the slightest chance of civilians being caught up in this operation, if the conditions at the target had changed in any way, then they were to abort the operation. They were not to come and tell us afterwards that: "Yes, we did notice that and the other but we were under pressure to perform this operation so we carried on." Your Honour, so in our opinion, Your Honour, that Rent Office is used during office hours. It's not used after hours at all. It's not used as something else after the Rent Office. It is an area where the public doesn't gather. It was at night. The limpet was primed to go off in the middle of the night, 4, 5, 3 o'clock thereabouts. Your Honour, it's our understanding from our discussion with Moegamat Noah and with his mother and with his sister that unfortunately the victim had a preponderance for exploring certain areas of his township that other people might not do. His mother said that he was such a sweet child, he would often bring her little things home everyday, little empty packets, little boxes of things, old cartons, old pieces of disused stuff.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was he?

MR SALIE: When, at the time? I think Mr Bartlett was 24.

MR PAPIER: I understand that Mr Bartlett is mentally challenged, is that correct?

MR SALIE: That's correct, yes. So Your Honour, without belabouring the point, I think we want to state quite respectfully that we really went to the ends of the earth to ensure that there wasn't a possibility of civilians being injured, being caught up in this. There was nothing requisite...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: While it may have been your intention to avoid it, you are saying that he caught in the cross-fire unfortunately.

MR SALIE: Unfortunately, yes.

MR PAPIER: Now Mr Salie, as Commander of the Detachment, what was your response to the injury of Mr Nurudien?

MR SALIE: Well Your Honour, we called for and we received very extensive reports from all those concerned as to what they did, step by step report on how they conducted the operation, how they conducted themselves. They were thoroughly interrogated Your Honour.

MR PAPIER: And I understand that, well, evidence before this Commission earlier today is that you had visited the family. Were you part of this initiative in 1997?

MR SALIE: Yes, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: 19 when? Say again. 1997?

MR PAPIER: That's right. It's two years ago.

MR SALIE: Can I just speak to that quickly, Your Honour? You know we have been very troubled by the injuries to Mr Bartlett. It is something which weighs very heavily on us and there were basically four or five people who knew that we were responsible for this operation and once we were settling down into "normality", we said to ourselves that we really ought to go and approach the victim to say to the victim: "Look we are the people who did this to you and this is what we did and this is why we did it and how we did it and these are the people involved" and we didn't do that Your Honour for any other reason than we thought it was the correct, human, moral, ethical thing to do. In Umkhonto weSizwe we were instilled with a set of values, Your Honour, which made it incumbent on us, we felt, to do this. To go to the victim. To explain ourselves and to try and bring some peace to the victim and the victim's family and we did that not because we knew we were going to sit here one day eventually. At that stage we hadn't even thought of applying for amnesty. In fact, as you would know, Your Honour, there was always a little bit of grey areas as to what constituted a gross human rights violation and what not. We've got P W Botha who said that his bombing of Khotso House was a gross human rights violation because nobody was killed, but it was the most devilish operation Your Honour. It was right opposite a block of flats where there were old people recovering and they were and Eugene de Kock in his own testimony said that they were surprised by a Security Guard and they had to cut short the operation, had they carried it through, Your Honour, it would have been devastating but PW Botha felt that wasn't a serious...(indistinct), but I digress Your Honour.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me digress a bit. Then, and I don't mean to pose awkward questions to you, I just need to clarify it in my own mind. If it be a ...(indistinct) that was developed in the realms of moral wars, that you consider yourself with the injuries caused by the activities of MK and that when you did eventually go visit the family, you were not urged to do so by the prospects of Amnesty, why did it take you so long to go there?

MR SALIE: Well, there were a number of things that we had responsibility for as to Detachment, our work didn't end in 1990 when the ANC was unbanned. We had responsibility for weapons which we were ordered to hand over only in the beginning of 93 and, Your Honour, it was a very difficult thing for us to do, to go up to Mr Bartlett and to Mr Bartlett's family and to say: "We blew off your leg, we blew out your eye. I guess we are a bit cowardly, Your Honour, that's why it took us so long.

MR PAPIER: Now Mr Salie, in your capacity as Commander of the Detachment, you have also prepared a submission on pages 4 and 8 of this bundle, 4 to 8 of this bundle, which you now wish to read into the record, is that correct?

MR SALIE: I do, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: I was wondering Mr Papier when I read this, how does this fit into the application?

MR PAPIER: Thank you, Judge. My instructions are that my client, Mr Salie wishes to, in fact regards this as his last opportunity to be able to place before the TRC process and particularly this Committee, his respects with regard to operatives that had fallen in his unit. It is so that evidence was placed before the Human Rights Violation Committee, which is now closed Your Honour. Judge, evidence placed before this Committee that has a bearing on this unit, my instructions are that Mr Salie, nor the unit or any operatives were not given an opportunity to respond. They were not informed of the evidence placed before the Human Rights Violation Committee and to that end wish to read into the record pages 4, 5, 6 and 7, as a last opportunity and in a last attempt to in fact honour those operatives who had fallen and also to in fact contextualise the, or to record the integrity of the unit which is an issue, that is held in high esteem by my clients collectively. So I beg your permission ...(intervention))

CHAIRPERSON: Indulgence.

MR PAPIER: Indulgence, to allow us to place that on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Well a few things come to mind Mr Papier. Firstly it is unfortunate that your clients were not able to say what they want to say in another section of this Commission. The regulations and the practice of this Committee is such that we cannot provide a forum for what ought to have been said in another Committee. As you will appreciate, we are the only surviving Committee of the Commission, that's not of our own doing I would like to argue, but really we're under pressure to complete our work. Aside from that, we strictly work to the rule of relevance and now if you wish to comment on my following comment, please do so when I'm finished. The real test here is whether what is contained in these three or four pages are matters which are either going to detract or improve the application. In my view it doesn't, one way or the other and therefore I must conclude that that is irrelevant. The bigger test of all is that I must protect the integrity of this Committee from being used as a forum to say something that is irrelevant to this Committee and I again repeat, it is unfortunate that the clients weren't given an opportunity to say it where it should have been said and maybe it can be taken up by you to the members of the Commission, but certainly I am not, I am loath to grant permission to put this on record because in fact it's not going to improve your client's case at all.

MR PAPIER: As Your Worship pleases. Thank you Judge. May I just be afforded one minute to take instructions on the issue? Thank you Judge. Thank you Commissioners. I have taken instructions and my instructions are to appreciate the view expressed and we will take it up with the relevant structure in an attempt to place on record what our response is. Thank you Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: I really appreciate that. Are you done?

MR PAPIER: We are done, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. If you would just grant me a moment, I just want to check something with my client.

Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there is nothing except to place on record save that the victim Mr Bartlett, was in fact only 20 years old at the time of this incident and not 24 as you have stated. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

MR SALIE: I stand corrected, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't suppose you've got any re-examination Mr Papier?

MR PAPIER: None thank you. Thank you Judge.

ADV SIGODI: There is just one aspect that I would like to clarify with you. In your capacity as Regional Commander of the MK, did you not consider the fact that training young people with very very lethal weapons could be dangerous? I'm not saying that you should not have trained, but I'm concerned that some of the members of that unit were in standard 8, wasn't that a factor that you considered, you know giving them such lethal weapons to use?

MR SALIE: Yes, Your Honour, we did and it is correct that Vanessa in particular was very young, but you will know that it is a feature of our lives under apartheid that we grew up very, very quickly, so a Standard 8 girl in Bontheuwel High, with all due respect, Your Honour, is far more advanced than a Standard 8 girl from Sea Point High or Bishops or something like that, so our children were forced to take on responsibilities way beyond their years, Your Honour. We didn't go to seek out Standard 8 children. Vanessa was somebody who had presented herself first and foremost as a very disciplined person who could keep a secret, if I could put it so crudely, Your Honour. That was the first criteria. How suited was this person to underground work? Now we didn't, once we recruited them, we didn't just place weapons and explosives in their hands. Vanessa testified that her role in this blast was supplementary really. Her job was to go along, to gain experience, to go through the threshold of carrying out an operation. That's how our operators worked, Your Honour, that they went through different stages, they went through different thresholds. When Sidney went with Colleen Williams on previous operations, Colleen had detonated the mine. Colleen would previously have played the role that Vanessa did and so it was a very gradual, it was a very staged approach, so it wasn't a question of us giving Vanessa limpet grenade and AKs and stuff like that. They went through a stage Your Honour and as I have testified before, our emphasis was on avoiding civilian targets, casualties at all times, so the reply to your question, Your Honour is, yes, it does seem quite shocking and startling and irresponsible to have recruited the Standard 8 school girl to be part of an MK unit, but Your Honour, the planting of a bomb, or the firing of an AK is 5% of the work, there is an enormous amount of work that went into this operation at the Bontheuwel Rent Office and we needed all sorts of people to do that. There are some places where only schoolgirls could enter. There are some places where schoolboys would ask them no questions and let me just assure this Hearing that there were no other Standard 8 school children in this part of our Detachment, but really Your Honour, there was a multitude of tasks to be performed in an operation, we shouldn't just think of MK or military work as bomb blasts or armed attacks. That really was 5 or even less percent of the work and that's where people like Vanessa came in. Vanessa was somebody whom we could trust and we did trust her with our lives. Vanessa was somebody who grew up in Bontheuwel, who was passionate about justice, but who wasn't somebody who shouted from the rooftops Your Honour and she was very, very far advanced for her age.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You're excused.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge. That is also our case.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I do not intend to lead any evidence thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are there any submissions you want to make?

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge. Just very briefly.

ADV BOSMAN: May I, just before you commence with that, you were asked by the Chairperson to just clarify exactly for what your clients are applying for an perhaps you could just preface your submissions by telling us what the actual application is for.

MR PAPIER IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Judge. Please bear with me for one moment.

Thank you Judge, thank you Commissioners. Just very briefly, it's my respectful submission that this application relates to the activities flowing from the evidence presented to this Commission today and in particular the bomb blast executed at the Bontheuwel Rent Office on that date, which includes the possession of ammunition, arms and ammunition, malicious injury to property, attempted murder

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge, in so far as relates to the aspect of dolus eventualis with intent, and in so far as it relates to the injuries sustained by Mr Bartlett, we of course submit that there is no prospect, or to put it the worst case scenario, very remote prospect of wanting to argue intent in the form of dolus eventualis but nevertheless I would submit that should, in an unlikely scenario, a charge of attempted murder be formulated in respect of Mr Bartlett, we would respectfully request this Committee to consider granting amnesty for that.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the prospects of a conviction on attempted murder?

MR PAPIER: I would submit close to zero, Judge and Honourable Committee Members.

MR SALIE: Your Honour, would you mind if I...?

CHAIRPERSON: No you have to ...

MR PAPIER: May I just take instructions?

Thank you Judge. I am reminded and instructed by my client that correspondence flowing from this office, the TRC office referred to the charge of attempted murder as well, but when I was addressing the Committee I wasn't mindful of that correspondence. Be that as it may, Honourable Commissioners ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I must say that some strange questions have come out of this office and ultimately this Committee must decide on the issue and it's important because it's non-appealable and the future of people is at stake and we need to be certain of what we're about.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Thank you Judge and so it is with that in mind that I would submit that even though there is a remote chance of the prospects of success in respect of the attempted murder being very remote, I would nevertheless request this Honourable Committee to consider that.

Finally Judge, Honourable Commissioners, I submit, with respect, that the application ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: First attempted murder, what else?

MR PAPIER: Malicious injury to property.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any malicious injury to property?

MR SALIE: The Rent Office was slightly injured, yes.

MR PAPIER: I'm instructed yes, Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the question then arises whether it's MITP or arson, you must tell us.

MR PAPIER: I would respectfully request this Committee to consider granting amnesty for arson alternatively malicious injury to property.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the damage and how was it caused? Arson must have been caused by fire.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if that was the damage, yes, then it's arson. If not and it was caused some other way, then it may very well be malicious injury to property.

MR PAPIER: I would then respectfully request that the alternative be excluded and that amnesty be granted for arson, as well as possession of arms and ammunition.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Papier, I don't want to be over technical, but we have no evidence before us about any damage to the property. We have no evidence before us on any form of dolus eventualis. Do you wish to make any submissions on that?

MR PAPIER: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well before, just complete your list of offences. You said possession of arms and ammunition, anything else?

MR PAPIER: That would be the nett effect of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What about a contravention of the explosives Act?

MR PAPIER: Absolutely Judge, so I respectfully submit that it would be all contraventions flowing from the Arms and Ammunitions Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Explosives Act. Anything else?

MR PAPIER: That is my list Judge, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how do you come up by arson on the evidence before us?

MR SALIE: Your Honour if I could possibly assist. I testified that our intention was to burn down the building, that's why we had fitted the limpet with thermite and which is why Mr Bartlett had received such severe burns, the top half of his body was very badly burned Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to make one thing clear now. When we listen to argument or evidence, we can only listen to one person.

MR SALIE: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Now either you fire your attorney and talk, or you continue with your representative.

MR SALIE: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

MR PAPIER: May I take instructions on that? Judge, yes, I confirm that there is evidence before this Committee particularly with regard to the intention of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand that, but we haven't got evidence as to whether it was successful or not, have we?

MR PAPIER: No evidence has been placed before this Honourable Committee by the applicant, but we respectfully submit that the consequences of their conduct would have amounted to mere speculation and hearsay on the point of the applicants. They did not embark on an assessment and a quantification of the damages.

CHAIRPERSON: We're not talking of quantification. We're just finding out if there's any evidence to say that the building was partly burned or scorched or whatever.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have we got that evidence?

MR PAPIER: I have no instructions on that Honourable Commissioners. What I am submitting ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So how can you say that they're guilty of arson then?

MR PAPIER: I'm respectfully submitting, Honourable Commissioners, that the evidence placed before this Commission relates to the bomb that was planted by clients ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: At best, Mr Papier, aren't they then guilty on the evidence before us of attempted arson?

MR PAPIER: As you please.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree?

MR PAPIER: I would agree with that, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: How would you deal with the malicious injury to property?

CHAIRPERSON: He's abandoned that.

ADV BOSMAN: Have you abandoned that?

CHAIRPERSON: And the possession of arms and ammunition?

MR PAPIER: I respectfully submit, Honourable Judge that there is evidence before this Committee that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: From whom?

MR PAPIER: From Sidney Hendricks that he was in possession of the limpet mine. There's evidence before this Committee by Aneez Salie that it was his responsibility to in fact obtain the arms and ammunition and in so far as it relates to the doctrine of common purpose, I would respectfully submit that it is common cause that the applicants possessed or controlled arms.

CHAIRPERSON: Through Mr Salie?

MR PAPIER: Through Mr Salie but more in particular to the limpet mine, through Mr Sidney Hendricks.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, the limpet mine relates to the Act concerning explosives and the contraventions thereof. Possession of arms and ammunition means firearms. I can understand that Mr Salie himself, possessed them or such-like articles at some time during his duties. I've got no quarrel with him obtaining amnesty for it, but I must be possessed to reason that the others are guilty of it.

MR PAPIER: Yes. Thank you Judge. In particular and specifically I refer this Honourable Commission to the evidence of Sidney Hendricks who testified that he was in possession of a survival kit which included an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: For this incident?

MR PAPIER: Honourable Judge, the evidence placed before this Committee was in response to a question and he had indicated that he was in possession of this survival kit which included an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, when we ask you the question of listing the offences for which he's applied for, we assume that you would do so in respect of the incident relating to the application.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in his application, or in their applications, all the applicants refer to the incident where the Rent Office was attacked, they attempted to attack it and in so saying, all the offences that flow from that incident are included in the list. If one of the applicants wanted to make an application for possession of a firearm in general, unconnected to this incident, that would have been a separate application and I'm afraid I don't see such a separate application in these applications.

MR PAPIER: As it pleases. I confirm the position and our application therefore would be limited to the application before you which relates to the limpet mine and arson.

CHAIRPERSON: And to the extent that we can grant for attempted murder, we'll consider that. So you're abandoning the application in respect of arms and ammunition?

MR PAPIER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't perhaps referred yourself to the Sections which have been contravened in respect of the Explosives Act?

MR PAPIER: I don't have instructions on that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not talking about instructions, I'm talking about you doing research yourself?

MR PAPIER: No, I haven't done that research.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't expect your clients to know the section and title.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MR PAPIER: Finally I would just submit that the application complies with the requirements of the Act in all material respects and I would respectfully request the application to be granted. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. I'll reiterate that the position of the victim in this matter remains unchanged. I accordingly have no address.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what's your comment about attempted murder?

MS PATEL: My respectful submission in that regard, Honourable Chairperson that the applicants haven't made out a case in respect of which they can apply for amnesty on attempted murder. The evidence was clear in fact from both Hendricks and Vanessa Rhoda, they at no stage even foresaw the possibility that somebody would walk past and in fact be injured, so it wasn't part of their plan, it was never ever foreseen, in fact as far as they were concerned, it was almost impossible.

CHAIRPERSON: Had someone been injured inside the building, had the attack been successful, that may have been another matter.

MS PATEL: Yes, no of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MS PATEL: Nothing else, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. We will reserve judgment. We thank everybody for attending and contributing to the process and we will adjourn.

MR PAPIER: Thank you.

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