CHAIRPERSON: ... the same as far as the Panel is concerned and for the applicants I'm going to ask the representatives in matter in which the victim Frans Mavhandu is involved, to announce himself for the purposes of the record. So can you announce yourself for the purposes of the record, please?

MR MUSHASHA: Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, my name is Milo Jackson Mushasha, advocate of the Supreme Court. I represent the victims in this matter.

MR NDOU: My name is Patrick Ndou, I'm an attorney from the firm Uys & Louw Inc in Thoyohandou. I represent the applicants.

MS PATEL: Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ndou.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, I now call applicant 7254, that is Samuel Kudzingana.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kudzingana you are an applicant appearing before the Amnesty Committee and you've deposed a document which has been signed by yourself in front of a commissioner of oaths. Do you have any problem if I read this document into the record?

MR KUDZINGANA: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to read him the record Mr Ndou, we have been trained to read.

MR NDOU: Okay Mr Chairman, thank you, will it be necessary for me or will I just allow the Committee to take note of it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we'll have to read it and take note of it, let's mark that Exhibit A.

MR NDOU: Thank you. Now you were born on the 25th of December 1966, is that correct?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes it's correct.

MR NDOU: Now you've sent an application to the Amnesty Committee asking that you be granted amnesty in respect of which offences?

MR KUDZINGANA: I've got fifteen years for murder and three years for arson.

MR NDOU: And murder in respect of who?

MR KUDZINGANA: In respect of Frans Mavhandu.

MR NDOU: And the arson?

MR KUDZINGANA: The arson occurred in Frans Mavhandu's home.

MR NDOU: Now could you explain to the Committee as to how it came about that this happened?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I can.

MR NDOU: Please do so.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand you correctly then Mr Ndou, he's making application for amnesty in respect of the murder of Mr Mavhandu, and one count of arson in respect of the home of Mr Mavhandu.

MR NDOU: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Both occurred on the same day?

MR NDOU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed. It happened in the same incident broadly speaking?

MR NDOU: That is so. You can proceed.

MR KUDZINGANA: On the 6th of March 1990, it happened a meeting was held at the dam where we were discussing the issue of witchcraft - how are we going to deal with witches seeing that they are there in our community, because there was another meeting which was held before the 6th which happened at the chief's kraal, headman Nmbuleni Simon Sintumole. There we discussed the same issue that there are witches in our community and how can we deal with this issue.

Then the youth decided that youth were in danger because there was nothing that they could do in the village, so the youth decided to burn the witches. The main aim being that the Venda Government should be ungovernable, and as such we decided before the 6th of March where the youth organised themselves and went on the 6th. After the meeting there at the dam, myself, I was from Madumbija on that day, so as I was coming using the path between the bushes I found the people going to the place the home of the deceased and then I joined them ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at the meeting?

MR KUDZINGANA: No I didn't attend that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about the one at the dam.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes the very same one I didn't attend, I joined them on the way to that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you join them?

MR KUDZINGANA: I was invited so I joined and then I was told where to go.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you join? Okay you were invited now. People get invited to weddings and whatever else. Why did you join?

MR KUDZINGANA: On that time there was no time for reasoning as to where we are going so there was no time for questioning anybody or to ask anybody because there were so many. So on my arrival I decided to do what they were doing at the very same time. That is how I joined and then I went with them to the home of the deceased. Before we arrived there we found the deceased accompanying certain two men. I'm not sure if they were visitors on that day. Then on our arrival the deceased went back to his home taking two big knives and when the mob arrived the deceased was prepared to defend himself. Then the mob decided to throw stones at him. There at home was his wife who also went out when the mob arrived and ran away and the man remained. Then the man ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How big was this mob?

MR KUDZINGANA: About 500.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what were the mob going to do there?

MR KUDZINGANA: This mob went there because Frans was suspected to be a witch and then other people I think in the meeting which was held where witches were identified people like Frans was also identified. Such kinds of people were once told that they must be evicted and then Frans was one of the people who refused to be evicted.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know Frans?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I knew him.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you staying in the same village?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you attend the meeting at the headman?

MR KUDZINGANA: The meeting at the chief's kraal, I didn't attend that one.

ADV DE JAGER: You didn't attend that meeting, you didn't attend the meeting at the dam?

MR KUDZINGANA: No I didn't attend them.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the mob going to his house for?

MR KUDZINGANA: I discovered that the mob was going to ask him to go because he was accused of practising witchcraft.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you find that out?

MR KUDZINGANA: On the very same day on which these things happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Before or after they reached the deceased's house?

MR KUDZINGANA: I think it's before we arrived, when I saw the deceased coming out with those big pangas or knives. Then I asked somebody whether we are here to ask him to go and then I was told in passing that you must know that people who are witches are expected to leave this village because it's known for a long time that witches must leave that village.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you agree with that?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I agreed with that Your Honour.

ADV DE JAGER: Why should witches be chased away, what was the reason?

MR KUDZINGANA: Witches were alleged to be giving the people just like the ministers, they were giving the ministers ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The government, are you talking about the government?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I'm talking about the former Venda Government.

CHAIRPERSON: You say the witches were thought to be giving what ...?

MR KUDZINGANA: They were thought to be giving the high officials, the people who were running the Venda Government, they were assisting by giving them muti so that they can be intact in their positions.

CHAIRPERSON: What was wrong with that?

MR KUDZINGANA: During that time the Venda Government said it must be incorporated because people were no longer interested in it because the people in the government were said to be committing ritual murder and corruption in the very same government.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words as I understand your evidence is that the people of Venda wanted reincorporation and the ministers wanted to keep their positions as a separate homeland.

MR KUDZINGANA: Ja they were supporting that.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was thought that they were able to do so with the assistance of witchcraft.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes that's the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that the reason witches were then targeted?

MR KUDZINGANA: That is what was done.

CHAIRPERSON: So if the witches were not there the government officials would not have the power to continue with what the people didn't want.

MR KUDZINGANA: Our aim was that they must no longer be in the government or they must take the government back.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe that the deceased was a witch or wizard or whatever?

MR KUDZINGANA: I grew (up) knowing that it is alleged that he was a witch.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you believe that?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I used to believe that.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you used to, don't you believe in witches any more?

MR KUDZINGANA: I still believe in it.

ADV DE JAGER: You went there to ask the deceased to leave the vicinity?

ADV DE JAGER: So his eviction and his death was one and the same thing because he was told long ago that he must go, and seeing that he was not going then it was thought it's proper for him to be killed because others who were appointed as witches by then already gone but he remained.

MR KUDZINGANA: Did you agree with his death in those circumstances?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I agreed that he must die under those circumstances.

ADV DE JAGER: But I want to refer you to paragraph 23 of your affidavit. You are now telling us that you went there with the intention to kill him, is that right.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes that's right.

ADV DE JAGER: In paragraph 23 you said:

So you went there with the intention to give him a trekpas and not to kill him, according to what you say here. Now can you tell us what's the truth?

MR KUDZINGANA: The truth is that all those two things were mixed up because the person was told to leave the village and he didn't do that. And then people decided that maybe he's still going to refuse to go because he was still there. So what was left for him was for him to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: In your affidavit you say when he was being stoned and burned, you threw stones at him. Is that true?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew he's going to die then?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your affidavit you say that when you were on your way there the people went there with the intention of telling him to go but somehow that decision changed soon thereafter. When that decision changed to killing him, did you agree with that?

MR KUDZINGANA: At that moment there was not time to debate, it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking you if you debated. I'm not asking you if it was a democratic decision. I'm asking, there was a time that people threw stones at him and doused him with petrol and burnt him. Did you agree with that?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I agreed with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and in fact you participated in that.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I participated.

MR NDOU: That is all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now is there anything that you want to say perhaps to the deceased's family?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I have something to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do so.

MR KUDZINGANA: I am truly asking for forgiveness in terms of what happened because now I realise that it's something which happened which to the members of the family is unacceptable and very painful, and as such I'm saying. So I'm asking for forgiveness for what happened which is painful to you because it happened during those days and I don't think that it will ever happen again, things of that nature will ever happen and as such I am asking that they forgive me so that I can come back and live with people at home. I think I will end there.

ADV DE JAGER: But you're still believing in witches.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I still believe.

ADV DE JAGER: Wouldn't you kill a witch again if you find one?

MR KUDZINGANA: Could you please repeat your question?

ADV DE JAGER: Why wouldn't you kill a witch if you find one?

MR KUDZINGANA: It's because the aim in the past was to make the Venda Government to be ungovernable, but now we no longer talk of the Venda Government. If I go out now I'll be going to the government that I was in need of then to such an extent that I think I will live with no other problem and that the issue of witches which are still existing at this present moment. I am listening to the radio sometimes, and I have never heard of a mob which was just like the one we used to have in the past. Those mobs are no longer there. It's over, it's a thing of the past, because the aim which was aimed at has happened.

That is why I think those things are no longer there. I still believe however that witches are still there but they are no longer targets but they were targets during those days because we were trying to overcome the government or to let the government fall we have start with the roots just like a tree. If you want a big tree to fall then you have to start with the roots.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was wrong of the witches that time to help the government to stay in power?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes it was very wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: They used to involve themselves in ritual murders and children were killed?

MR KUDZINGANA: Could you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Witches were somehow involved in ritual murders, correct?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that still the position? People disappearing, people dying?

MR KUDZINGANA: Now the people are not being killed ritually like in the past, because in the past it was the ministers of the former government who were committing ritual murders, but now we are no longer talking about the ministers of the Venda Government. As such they no longer have powers.

CHAIRPERSON: Forget about the ministers, I'm not talking about those kind of politics. I'm asking are ritual murders for one or other reason still being committed today?

MR KUDZINGANA: Nowadays I'm not sure since it's long that I have been in jail but I hear ritual murders are no longer committed.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's assume this then that they are committed. Do you not find anything wrong with that?

MR KUDZINGANA: It will depend on who - could you please repeat your question again?

CHAIRPERSON: If there are still ritual murders being committed today, do you think it's right?

MR KUDZINGANA: I think it's not right, and I don't think the government of the day will accept ritual murders.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ndou.

MR NDOU: That is all Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mushasha.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA: Will you please tell me and the Chairman and the Committee what you actually did in the killing process?

MR KUDZINGANA: I have already explained that I killed the deceased by throwing stones at him and burning the house of the deceased, throwing stones and burning resulted in the death of the deceased. As such I have participated.

MR MUSHASHA: With what did you burn the house?

MR KUDZINGANA: I think that the thing which is capable of burning is fire.

MR MUSHASHA: Did you also make use of petrol in the process of burning the house?

MR KUDZINGANA: Somebody sprinkled or poured petrol and lit and I was one of the people who lit the match.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you happen to know the deceased's wife, Chifloa?

MR KUDZINGANA: Maybe I'm confused by the name, I don't know if she's called Chiflora or who, I know here and I can point her out, but the name might be a problem.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you know the deceased's wife Swido ...(indistinct)?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I know her.

MR MUSHASHA: My instructions are that you were actually seen chopping the deceased with a panga, what do you say to this?

MR KUDZINGANA: That is something which I don't know.

MR MUSHASHA: The deceased's wife says she actually saw you chopping the deceased with a panga. Do you say it's not true.

MR KUDZINGANA: That is not true because I have already mentioned that on our arrival the deceased's wife went out and ran away. I can't understand, when it happened, she was not there.

ADV DE JAGER: That's not the question, we don't know where she was. The question is simple, did you chop him with a panga or not?

MR KUDZINGANA: No I didn't chop him with a panga.

MR MUSHASHA: Did you see anyone in your presence chopping the deceased with a panga?

MR KUDZINGANA: What I saw was when the the deceased chopped one omongst the mob. When the deceased chopped on of us on the hand, I saw that. I did not witness the deceased being chopped.

MR MUSHASHA: There was also evidence in court that the deceased was chopped with a pick. Did you see that happening?

MR KUDZINGANA: No I know that he was chopped with a pick.

MR MUSHASHA: Who did that?

MR KUDZINGANA: Accused number 1 Justice Rama Brother who is also present here.

MR MUSHASHA: I still want to understand how it came about that you joined this group which proceeded to the deceased's kraal.

MR KUDZINGANA: I have already explained to this Court that I joined the mob which was going to Frans' kraal, then I went with them.

MR MUSHASHA: Now what made you join this group going to the deceased's kraal?

MR KUDZINGANA: I joined the group because during that time things were corrected by a mob. That is the youth were doing nothing but the only thing to do was to correct things which were not in order. Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mushasha, is it being denied that a group came to that house and attacked the house as a result of which the deceased died and the house was burned?

MR MUSHASHA: No it's not denied.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it being denied that this witness was part of that group.

MR MUSHASHA: No it's not being denied.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's the point wanting to know why he joined a group or how he joined a group.

MR MUSHASHA: It's because in this evidence he said he was invited but now my instructions are that no he was not invited the group, he was actually in the meeting which preceded the procession to go there.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get down to that.

MR MUSHASHA: In your evidence you stated you were invited to join the group which was proceeding to the deceased's kraal. But now that differs from my instruction. My instructions are that now you were actually in the meeting at the dam, which meeting decided to proceed to the deceased's kraal. What do you say to that?

MR KUDZINGANA: That is not true.

MR MUSHASHA: My further instructions are to the effect that you were also part of the meeting which decided that the deceased should be killed because he was a wizard.

MR KUDZINGANA: I think you are asking me something which I didn't say and seeing that I haven't said that then it means I don't what you are asking me that I was at the meeting because what I'm saying today is what I know. What you are asking me you might have heard about it by a person who was not in the meeting. What I'm telling you is what I know.

MR MUSHASHA: My instructions in this regard is that while on the one hand you admit participating in the killing of the deceased, you are not making a full disclosure prior to the killing.

MR KUDZINGANA: On the day on which the deceased was killed was on the 6th and I have explained how I joined the mob and the like. Something which I don't know, maybe something outside the date of the 6th, but what happened on the 6th is what I'm trying to explain.

MR MUSHASHA: The impression that I get is that you are trying to deny the fact that you participated in the decision that day that the deceased should be killed, should be removed from that area.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I'm denying that. Maybe it is because Your Honourable, maybe you are not sure, you must know that I am not a citizen of Shuzi(?), I was staying at Madombeja, so many meetings were there but I was staying at Madombeja. It might have happened on the day that I was not there because I was staying at Madombeja attending school there. I don't know that the thing you are referring to of which date and where I was on that day when you are trying to force me to agree that I was there.

MR MUSHASHA: I'm not forcing you to agree but what I'm putting to you are my instructions which I carry from the victims. Mr Chairman, maybe I missed the response hereto.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think he has given another response, his last response was that he wasn't at the meeting.

MR MUSHASHA: I'm not trying to make you repeat the reason for the killing, but I just want to be clear on this point, I just want to see how you link up the killing with the politics of the day.

MR KUDZINGANA: I have already explained that we decided to kill him because we believed he is the one who was capable of giving the leaders who were leading in the government medicines so that they will remain in the government, even if things are wrong. They would just stay there and then people would not see all the things which would be happening in the government. So they used to get medicine from the witches, that is why we targeted the witches so that we can go further from where we were intending to go.

MR MUSHASHA: I understand that but the problem which I have is that this is not the way you put it in your affidavit in particular number 6. I hope you are aware of what the contents of paragraph 6 is.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I know.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you think the contents of paragraph 6 is similar to what you are saying now?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes it's the same because I'm saying witches were used to give the people in high positions in the government medicine so that they can remain intact and be powerful. So when we tried to make the government fall it was impossible because of these witches and these witches were also protected by the police whom we suspected that they were supposed to protect the community, but then they were protecting the witches and the police are the government officials of the government of the day. So in that way we realised that these people were all a big obstacle of preventing us from re-incorporating our government to the Republic of South Africa where we were really intending to do so.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you still believe that the deceased was a wizard?

MR KUDZINGANA: No I grew up knowing that I think I will still die living in that, or knowing that, because since I grew up I don't know if this thing will ever be erased from my mind.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you believe that the deceased was actually a wizard?

CHAIRPERSON: He saying that till the day he dies he will be ...(intervention)

MR KUDZINGANA: That means that Your Honourable, because I'm saying that till the day I die, seeing that I'm still alive, then it means I still believe that.

MR MUSHASHA: What is that deed which the deceased did which caused you to believe that he was actually a wizard?

MR KUDZINGANA: The deceased was alleged to be responsible in bewitching a certain person from Mabandu who was said to be the father of Moses Mabanmdu. It was heard that he is the one who was responsible for his death.

MR MUSHASHA: Finally I just want to put it to you, according to my instructions the deceased was not a witch.

MR KUDZINGANA: Your Honourable, I'm trying to explain, it might be the fourth time or the tenth time that ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: You told us you still believe it and it's not necessary to try to be funny with the advocate asking you questions.

MR KUDZINGANA: I apologise for that Your Honourable.

MR MUSHASHA: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Patel.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there's just two aspects I'd like clarity on. Mr Kudzingana, in your application to us on page 8. In response to a question as to the occupation and addresses of the victim, can I just ask, excuse my ignorance, but is Welder a name of a place or is that a reference to an occupation.

MR KUDZINGANA: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at page 8 of your formal application, not the affidavit. On paragraph 9c the question there is, 9c.2, the occupations and or addresses of the victims. There is a word "Welder." What does that refer to, his occupation or his address?

MR KUDZINGANA: A welder, it's a person who welds things.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's his occupation.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes it's an occupation.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, is that Frans Mavhandu's occupation?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes he was self-employed doing that.

MS PATEL: Okay is that your case that besides the fact that he was a welder he was also a wizard?

MS PATEL: Can you tell me Sir, when did you decide to become a supporter of the ANC?

MR KUDZINGANA: Since I got to know that there is a person called Mandela. I learned that there is Mandela and and he's a leader of the ANC and he's arrested and he's in jail and then started to know about the ANC and then I started to support it during that time.

MS PATEL: Okay how long before this incident did you realise that?

MR KUDZINGANA: Knowing about Mandela is something which is from long ago, but I know about about Mandela. I think that I started to know about Mandela that he was in prison in terms of political things and the leader of the ANC and I started to support the ANC and it's quite long ago.

MS PATEL: The question is very simple, when did you first become a supporter of the ANC, how many years before this incident, how many months before this incident or when, give us an estimation?

MR KUDZINGANA: I think three years back, then I was aware that Mandela is the leader of the ANC and then it came that Mandela was released and then we celebrated his release and I know what I'm saying.

MS PATEL: In your affidavit to us in paragraph 15, as part of your motivation, as part of your political motivation you state that at the time of this incident, that you were still fighting for the release of Mr Mandela. Yet by that time he was already released.

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes by then Mandela was already released but then the work here in Venda that we were supposed to do was not necessarily to fight for Mandela, the most important thing here was the incorporation of the Venda Government into South Africa. It means that even if Mandela was released then our struggle was still continuing referring to Venda. That Mandela was released doesn't stop our struggle or what we were intending because our aim was for this government of Venda to go back to South Africa.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

MR NDOU: Nothing further Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know Albert Thembani?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes I knew him.

ADV SIGODI: I didn't get the answer.

MR KUDZINGANA: He's outside now. I mean his not here with us, he's outside the jail.

ADV SIGODI: Was he also convicted of this?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes. When the policemen were searching the people he was the one who was wanted on this case which I'm also involved in.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he stand trial with you on this charge?

MR KUDZINGANA: He was not arrested.

ADV SIGODI: I got the impression when you said that he was outside that he was arrested and that he has since been released. Could you clarify that?

MR KUDZINGANA: Maybe I didn't understand it. He was just arrested on a different case, not this one I'm involved in.

ADV SIGODI: So what you're saying in paragraph 30 is that he is the one who doused the deceased with petrol and set him alight?

MR KUDZINGANA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Mr Thembani(?)

MS PATEL: Unfortunately Honourable Chairperson these affidavits came to us during the course of this hearing, we haven't had an opportunity to inform him. I might also add for the record that supplementary affidavits were requested a long time ago from the applicant.

(blank in the recording)

MR NDOU:(?) No he's not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, how sure are we that the applicants received those letters requesting further particulars?

MS PATEL: I believe that they were faxed to their coordinator Honourable Chairperson, I can just get the details for you now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou can you put any - were your clients asked for further particulars.

MR NDOU: Mr Chairman, all I know is that the documents from the TRC only arrived on the 12th, that's all I can say. We gave the affidavits in before the documents from the TRC arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: No we're not talking about that, we're talking about separate letters.

MR NDOU: I'm not aware of any letters that were sent.

MS PATEL: If I might add in respect of the bundles going out ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just find out from one or two of your clients whether that occurred? Ms Patel if you can instigate a written response to our questions from that coordinator and from the person who sent the letters through the coordinator. If the applicants really got this notice or not.

MS PATEL: I'll do so Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust it will be appreciated that what we plan to do now, just going to extend the incarceration of the applicants and possibly to look forward to their own, but if they did receive the notice then it's their own fault.

MR NDOU: Honourable Chairperson I spoke to the coordinator of the applicants themselves, they have a group of their own and he indicates to me that he is not aware of any such letter. If a letter was ever sent then it could possibly have been sent to Mr Leguli who is presently not here ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who's he?

MR NDOU: He is the one who was coordinating this committee of the applicants. He's a CO for the town council of Messina. Now we've been trying to get him since ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Has he been appointed by the applicants themselves?

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So they chose him?

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So if he received that notice, he sat with it, then it's his fault.

Anyway Ms Patel I would like the written report on that score. We find ourselves in the position where we have to comply with the Act and in terms of the evidence now given, one Mr Thembani has been implicated in this matter. According to the Act, where a person is implicated in the crime he must be given notice of that and given an ...(break in recording)

I have given an instruction to the Evidence Leader, calling for a written report to this Committee on what actually happened because she is in possession of a copy of a letter requesting this type of information about implicated people and amongst other issues.

It seems that the applicants themselves appointed a coordinator. I'm not too sure whether it reached that coordinator. The fact of the matter is that a response to that letter never reached the TRC and therefore they could not and did not send the required notice to Mr Thembani.

We are in a position now, in order to comply with the Act, we are compelled therefore to postpone the matter sine die, and unfortunately it means that those who could possibly have been released, would have to wait that much longer so that Mr Thembani, has a chance, if he so chooses, to deal with these allegations. It is an unfortunate situation for the applicants but one that we cannot avoid. I apologise for the inconvenience.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, sorry to cut you short but I found the copy of the letter that was in fact faxed to Mr Lerule on the 6th of October already in which these applicants names appear requesting the particulars to all supplementary affidavits.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was it faxed to?

MS PATEL: It was faxed on the 6th of October.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom.

MS PATEL: To Mr Lerule.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's he?

MS PATEL: He's the coordinator Honourable Chairperson, the chosen representative for IV(?) applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the member attached to the Messina Municipality?

MS PATEL: That is correct. He is also the person who assisted all the applicants in filling out the application forms and sending them to our offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Well my attention has been drawn to the fact that the Evidence Leader has in fact a copy and proof of faxing that letter to your chosen coordinator, nothing happened since. I'm not going to say what to do about that, that is for you to decide, the fact of the matter is that we are unable to proceed with this matter and unfortunately it will have to be postponed sine die. It is so ordered.

Is there any other matter?

MS PATEL: Yes there is Honourable Chairperson if you'll just grant me a moment.

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, may I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just please explain to your clients what has happened and the reasons for the postponement?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, the next matter on the roll is that of the murder of one Gumant, the amnesty applicant's name is Matelo and in terms of your list it's number H.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no specific appearance for any family members?

MS PATEL: No they were notified though, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position about Mr Van Rensburg's interests in other matters?

MS PATEL: I believe that Mr Ndou indicated that he would try and locate the applicant Matelo, perhaps he can give us a report on that.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman, we proceeded to the applicant's home, yesterday and we didn't find him but we left a message that they should tell him to come today, so hopefully we think he will be able to come today.

CHAIRPERSON: No we don't want Mr Van Rensburg to waste his time here.

MR NDOU: I understand he's arrived now, I understand he's here, he's just gone out to the toilet.

NAME: ALFRED KANGALE MATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed with this matter now? Can we carry on with number 8 then.

MR NDOU: I'm going to call on Mr Matelo, I'm just looking through his document.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you call Mr Matelo to the front please?

Mr Matelo, are you aware that this is one of the Panels of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

MR MATELO: Yes I know.

CHAIRPERSON: This is one of the Panels of the Amensty Committee?

MR MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you are Mr Nemulodi?

MR MATELO: Yes I am.

CHAIRPERSON: You have made an application for amnesty?

MR MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It involved an application in respect of the murders of a number of people including Mrs Masithi. Your application was enrolled on this session?

MR MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did not pitch up on Monday.

MR MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And people had to go and look for you to tell you we need to see you.

MR MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive notice that this matter was going to proceed this week?

MR MATELO: I got it today. So now today I am here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay then it's not your fault. Do you want to proceed with this application or what is the position?

MR MATELO: Yes indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou you haven't ...(indistinct)

MR NDOU: ... notice yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nemolodi, will you be seated and wait for Mr Ndou please.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes can we carry on with Mr Nemotelo?

MR NDOU: Thank you. Honourable Chairman, Honourable Members, I'm calling applicant number 4289/96, that is Mr Nemotelo, Alfred Kangale, may the witness be sworn in please?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Matelo, you brought an application before the Amnesty Committee.

MR MATELO: Yes.

MR NDOU: In respect of which offences have you brought this application?

MR MATELO: In the case of murder.

MR NDOU: Murder of who?

MR MATELO: I have killed a person, I forget the name but the surname is Gumant.

ADV DE JAGER: There is an indictment on page 12. He was found guilty on both charges and sentenced for 18 years, the charges being taken together for purposes of sentence.

MR MATELO: Yes.

MR NDOU: Now how did that come about that you killed these people.

MR MATELO: This person that I killed, I killed them because when I came back, I came back on pension. I just sat for a moment, after a long time my wife died. After she died it was alleged that he is the one responsible. Then I took it that this witch is the one who gave people of the high official in the government medicine that the government must not be reincorporated into South Africa.

MR NDOU: Okay let's take it slowly.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you want Venda to be reincorporated?

MR MATELO: It is because here in Venda our government was now ruling us in order - there were many things that were happening but not done it well - and then some were ritually killed and if we submit our issue then they were not dealing with it properly.

MR NDOU: I see, how does it come about that you thought that the people these are the people who bewitched your wife?

MR MATELO: It is because in Venda, if a person died we go and want to know what caused this person to die. Then we find that this person is the one alleged to be responsible for my wife's death. It is then that ...(intervention)

MR NDOU: I asked you, how did you come to know and you've explained that you approached a bone thrower. Is that right?

MR MATELO: Yes in terms of Venda, if a person is dead, then we have to go and found out what happened, and then we went to a sangoma who told us that he is responsible for the death of my wife. On coming back from the sangoma it was very painful because I was told that he's one of the people who's giving medicine to the leaders of Venda so that things cannot go forward, which is happening in this country.

MR NDOU: Now what I want to find out from you, who was the person identified by the bone thrower?

MR MATELO: We were many. Look I think you know that in Venda people don't want to tell anybody what happened because they were afraid that if they can tell anybody then they will be in trouble.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I ask you, do I understand you correctly. Your wife died. You then went to a sangoma and the sangoma threw bones and then pointed out that the deceased, this woman you've killed, that she was the cause of the death of your wife.

MR MATELO: Could you please repeat your question?

ADV DE JAGER: You killed a woman ...(intervention)

MR MATELO: No I didn't lay my hand in the killing but I went there with a petrol cannister. I just poured petrol, I didn't use my hands and the person died in hospital.

ADV DE JAGER: And this person where you sprinkled the petrol, was that person responsible according to the sangoma for the death of your wife?

MR MATELO: No it's not that person, it's the other person, it's not that person, that person didn't die and then the other person was injured, that is the daughter-in-law was injured.

ADV DE JAGER: I see, so you went to the house, sprinkled the petrol and ...(intervention)

MR MATELO: Yes there were many inside that hut and the person we were looking for was inside there.

ADV DE JAGER: I see. So the wrong person died?

MR MATELO: Yes the wrong person died.

MR NDOU: No you've been apprised of the fact that when one applies for amnesty one has got to show a political connection to your actions, is that right?

MR MATELO: Yes I understand that.

MR NDOU: How do you connect that?

MR MATELO: That person, what he was doing - they used to take medicine and take it to the government, giving it to the leaders of the government. That is why that if I do it like this way, then there would be no other person who will take the medicine and give it to the people who are in government.

ADV DE JAGER: Sir I'm a bit worried, I think you went there to kill this person because the person was responsible for the death of your wife.

MR MATELO: Yes it's true.

ADV DE JAGER: And that had nothing to do with politics.

MR MATELO: I have explained that in killing her I was trying to eliminate the witches because witches tend to give medicine to the leaders in government.

CHAIRPERSON: If your wife was not dead or your daughter was not injured ...(indistinct)

MR MATELO: But then I would not be knowing that she was a witch and I did it like that because that makes me to know that she is a witch, that is why I did it like that and because she was one of the people who gave medicine to the people who were in power and preventing the Venda Government to be reincorporated into South Africa, then I decided to kill that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright let's forget about the politics in that sense. When did your wife die?

MR MATELO: She died in July 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know any witch in June 1990, anybody that was a witch?

MR MATELO: Since I grew it was known that there are witches.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't avoid the question. Did you know any particular witch?

MR MATELO: Yes there was another person who used to take people and turn them into zombies.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, you say when you went to see this person, this deceased Flora, you did so because she gave medicine to government officials who were corrupt, etc.

MR MATELO: I've said, when I killed this person, I killed her because these witches including witchdoctors, they give people in government - I think if I killed them ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've repeated this well-rehearsed story. All I needed was a 'yes' or 'no'. All I want to know - listen to my question, all I want to know is that this Flora lady who you killed, did you think she specially gave medicine to the corrupt government officials or all the witches involved in that?

MR MATELO: Flora, I've tried to show that she's not the person who killed, she is the daughter-in-law, but I was intending to kill the right person, but people were so many inside, then the people ran away. Then I didn't know how this person I was intending to kill ran away. Flora was not a witch ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Just a moment. Who was the witch?

MR MATELO: Nyamquamadi Gumani was a witch.

ADV DE JAGER: Flora was the daughter-in-law of the witch?

MR MATELO: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: She was staying with the witch?

MR MATELO: Yes I can say it like that.

ADV DE JAGER: And you wanted to kill the witch.

MR MATELO: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you set fire to the house?

MR MATELO: Yes I sprinkled petrol here in the stoep while the people were inside.

ADV DE JAGER: But then Gumani the witch, she escaped?

MR MATELO: Yes she escaped.

ADV DE JAGER: But her daughter-in-law burned to death?

MR MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you before your wife died tried to kill these witches who were supporting the officials?

MR MATELO: It's because I couldn't just go and disturb people not knowing if the person is a witch. I did that because I happened to experience this problem and then realised that she is responsible to this and she also takes this medicine to the government officials. Then I decided to kill her thinking that I would have eliminated some of these witches.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you kill that other one who created zombies before your wife died?

MR MATELO: The person responsible for making zombies was (had attempts made on his life) attempted several times even by the youth, but he used to boast and say, "I have people in the bush and I'm like a chief, nobody can do anything to me." Indeed he happened to die with nobody touching him.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you why you never attempted to do so because you wanted to get rid of these people for political reasons?

MR MATELO: I'm trying to explain that it is very difficult to approach that person. In the meeting in the chief's kraal people were discussing about him intending to evict him. He said, "even if you try to evict me I won't go." And indeed he stayed, he didn't go.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go alone to go and kill this lady who's daughter-in-law died, were you alone or did you go with anybody else or what?

MR MATELO: I was alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you attend any meetings where the position of witches were discussed?

MR MATELO: Yes I used to attend them at the school under the ANC and we used to talk about that but it was not every time because I was in town. So we used to discuss that when I was back. But when people were discussing about that, these people don't take this thing seriously.

CHAIRPERSON: All I'm asking you now, those meetings that you say you attended where the position of witches was discussed, was that before or after your wife died?

MR MATELO: That was before she died.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you accept and believe in what was discussed there.

MR MATELO: Yes I believed in what was discussed there because it was discussed by the entire community.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you go and make an attempt on killing witches before your wife died?

MR MATELO: I was a person who was not around. I only came back in 1980. All the time I was in town but I happen to attend a meeting, not every time but only when I'm in town, but I have my family here. So I used to come during leave time but then I was on pension when these things happened.

MR NDOU: I cannot take this any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I have just very briefly Honourable Chairperson. Sir, is it correct that at the trial evidence was led that when you came to the home of the deceased you came to the door and you enquired after the person that you were looking for, that is Nyamukamadi and as soon as they said to you that she is in the hut, you then said that none of you will come out of this hut tonight. Do you recall that?

MR MATELO: Yes I still remember that.

MS PATEL: Do you confirm that you said that?

MR MATELO: Yes I agree I did mention that.

MS PATEL: So it didn't really make a difference to you who you killed that night, you were prepared to kill everybody in that hut?

MR MATELO: It's only because when I went there I was angry and I was not prepared to kill anybody. Now that I arrived there and I make mention of the person I'm looking for, it means that I was strictly looking for Nyamukamadi.

MS PATEL: So it's correct that you were angry, and the reason you went there was for revenge, not so, because you believed that Nyamukamadi was responsible for killing your wife and that was your primary motivation, not so?

MR MATELO: I didn't go there because I was going to revenge, but I was going there to find that - because this lady is responsible for the danger I experienced.

CHAIRPERSON: In actual fact she was responsible as you believe for the death of your wife?

MR MATELO: It's really that is true because this person, I went to her. Sometimes she used to indicate that she knows about this thing herself. Just for example, one day when her son was on leave, he decided to go back to town and not to stay home while he was on leave saying that he will come back when he's dead.

MS PATEL: I don't believe we're going to take this matter any further Honourable Chairperson and I will merely put it to you Sir that the killing of Flora Gumant(..as per printed matter) Gumani(?) was not politically motivated. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NDOU: Thank you, I've got nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR NDOU: That is all Mr Chairperson, I've got no further witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any witnesses.

MS PATEL: No I don't, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any argument?

MR MUSHASHA: In all honesty I must consider that difficulty is right from the outset, I need to consider it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you concede that it's difficult to get political links. The probabilities are that it's not political?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five-minute break.

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. The next matter on the roll is number 2 on your list, the applicant's Nemolodi and Mulovetzi. I believe my learned colleague, Mr Ndou, would like to address you on that matter.

MR NDOU ADDRESSES: Thank you Honourable Chairman and Honourable Members. I've been instructed in the matter of Nemolodi E to withdraw the applicant's application.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is he? No I'm not calling him, I just want to know if he is ...?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson I believe that would then excuse my - oh no actually not. Then we have the second applicant - sorry Mr Ndou seems to be indicating.

MR NDOU: No you can proceed.

MS PATEL: Alright thank you Honourable Chairperson, the second applicant Mulovetsi, I have had a discussion with Mr Ndou and he confirms that his client in his testimony to come will be implicating further people that we were not informed of beforehand, so I believe we sit with the same problem.

CHAIRPERSON: On that matter must we postpone sine die? Is that what you're saying?

MS PATEL: That is so Honourable Chairperson. Alright thank you Honourable Chairperson, then we move to incident 12, the incident of ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: He will give you the names of all the implicated persons and addresses so that they can be notified?

MS PATEL: Yes I am sure that he will Honourable Chairperson. Then the next incident is that of the murder of M Nemulenzi, the applicant there is Mulatsi. I believe that Mr Ndou wishes to withdraw this application.

MR NDOU: That is correct Honourable Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he in the hearing?

MR NDOU: He's not present today Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get instructions to ...(intervention)

MR NDOU: Yes my instructions are that he is no longer interested in proceeding.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. The next matter is that of the assualt on Petrus Nudau, the applicant there is Singo. I believe that Mr Ndou is in the same position as with the ...(intervention)

MR NDOU: Ja if may explain that one, that is a separate application from the rest. I received that from the TRC but I've been trying to get hold of this particular Singo in vain and when I looked at his application documents I noticed that he was only sentenced to six-months imprisonment way back in 1990 and it will be very very difficult to fight.

But maybe if the matter could just be postponed sine die so that we could try to find him. If next time he's not here I'll try to go to his home because I've got his address. If he's not there I will just withdraw it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou as I understand it you're going to make efforts to get hold of him.

MR NDOU: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: That would then be all Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, can I ask you something. Most of these matters we are being forced to postpone for some technicality involving notices in compliance with the Act. A number of the instances have been brought about by a lack of information given to the TRC by the applicants, such as names of implicated people and their addresses and perhaps even the addresses and names of the victims.

Now that you have a list of all the applicants, could you perhaps in 14 days time see to it that a list of those names under the different categories with their addresses reaches this specific Evidence Leader, Ms Patel.

MR NDOU: I don't have any problem with that, I'll as from today because we'll have the time to do that I'll use the time to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: The other thing is I need your assistance in explaining to your clients what the actual problems were that we couldn't proceed with their cases. They all look sitting there very disappointed and I can understand why, but unfortunately it's a matter that's out of our hands. We will try to come back as soon as possible. Okay, thank you then all. The matters are postponed and this session is adjourned.

MR NDOU: Thank you Chairman.