--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Before we begin, I just want to introduce myself, I'm Judge Pillay, it's for the purpose of the record. I'm going to ask my colleagues here to do the same.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I'm Judge Khampepe.

MR MALAN: Wynand Malan, Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Mr Snyders? Mr Kruger? Mr Mathius? Would you please place those earphones on your ears because what I am saying now will be interpreted.

Are there any people here related or connected to victims? Would you also collect ... Thank you.

This is a matter in which the three applicants have attended this hearing in order to apply for amnesty in respect of a number of offences. The offences for which they make such applications involve, as a result, various victims and in making such application and explaining themselves, have implicated other people in the commission of such crimes, or indirectly connected. The hearing is governed by Act 34 of 1995 being the Truth and Reconciliation Act as amended. In terms of this Act, people who have committed crimes with a political motive and who are prepared to make full disclosure, are entitled to be granted amnesty, but the Act goes further. It provides and compels the administration of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in the form of the Amnesty Committee, to give proper notice to victims and/or their families as well as implicated people, that such a hearing is scheduled to take place on a particular date, at a particular venue, such that their interests, whatever that may be, can be protected and if they so wish, to oppose the applications. Those are undeniable rights that emanate from the Act.

For quite a while now, various Committees of the Amnesty Committee have been complaining that such notices have not been properly served, if at all, resulting in matters having to be postponed or adjourned and generally resulting in time-wasting and a waste of tax funds.

In examining the documents related to this application, this Panel has discovered that there are a number of people who are implicated and have not at all been informed of this hearing. There are one or two victims or families of deceased victims who also did not, or at least we can't say whether they were properly informed. In my view it is an utter disgrace.

We know of the hardships that applicants and victims and implicated people have to go through in order to avail themselves of such hearings. Apart from the anxiety, they go through great financial expense because not all expences are covered by the TRC and the time has come, I feel, for the administration of the TRC to take note and take notice of what we have to say and really come to the assistance of all those who have a legal right in the results and actually the hearing of each application.

Before I make a ruling on what's going to happen henceforth, are there any questions from any of the applicants? If you want to say something, or ask something, now is the time.

MR KRUGER: Honourable Chairperson, it came about that the matter will be postponed because we could not afford and do not have legal representation and may I make a request that we postpone the matter until the time that we can obtain legal representation?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all that you want to discuss?

MR KRUGER: Is there a possibility that some of the persons who are present here and I accept that nothing has been heard so far, but to make a correction, is it possible that we could do this?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand. Do you ask if the people who are present realise that nothing has been said?

MR KRUGER: I would just like to say the following with regards to my application, there are people who are present here and I can only make a correction for the purposes of this Committee ...

CHAIRPERSON: What type of correction? What I wanted to ask you was, would you like to make that correction right now?

MR KRUGER: I would appreciate it if I could just say something to clear this up because as you know, some of these persons are involved with the TRC and I would just like to get clarity here. I would like to say a few things because we have not had the opportunities to clear this out in detail. To avoid that this panel has to repetitively hear this matter, I would not want you to say anything that comes down, or has the effect of evidence, do we understand each other? What I would propose and I wish to inform you, there is just something I want to discuss with my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, I would just like to inform you that according to the same Act you are entitled to representation by an attorney or an advocate or whatever and according to the Legal Aid Council Rules, I think you have to get into contact with the TRC and exercise your rights with regard to defence or representation and when that is done, then I think that would be the correct channel to apply your corrections to. Do you understand that?

MR KRUGER: Yes, we understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied?

MR KRUGER: Yes, we are satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: You may then get in touch with Ms Mtanga, who is right opposite you. She will be able to assist you to get into contact with the people of the TRC with regard to attorneys. You do realise that such an appointment is done in terms of the Legal Aid Council guidelines and that you can find out from them. Are you satisfied with what I am saying?

MR KRUGER: We are satisfied but the purpose that the Truth Commission is that our feeling is here we stand before you in the Name of Jesus Christ and the purpose of the TRC is to speak the truth and only the truth and we have made a promise to God that if we appear here, we will only speak the truth and I cannot see how a legal representative can inform me better than God, so if the Commission, how shall I put this, if it is the Commissions' will that we should obtain legal representatives, but from our side we will give the assurance that we are not here to tell lies, we are here to speak the truth and only the truth and if a legal representative is such a problem, then if you would adjourn this matter, we will make the necessary arrangements to obtain such representation.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not saying that you must and we do accept that you will speak the truth, but things are not as simple. The Act makes provision for certain technical aspects as well as procedures that the lay person does not understand entirely. It can only prejudice such people to appear here without any legal representation. It is only a bit of advice. I am not forcing you, you are not being forced to obtain legal representation, it was only some friendly advice to assist you. I shall leave it in your hands to decide what you will do.

MR KRUGER: We thank you and we will accept it.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think Mr Kruger requested some time for appointments but it is left in your hands. Is there anything else?

I want to address the victims or families of victims who are present.

On behalf of the TRC and the Amnesty Committee, we wish to apologise for this type of incident. I'm sure you will agree it's very unacceptable, untenable and I undertake to raise these objections with the Chairman of the Amnesty Committee as soon as I can.

Unfortunately we cannot proceed with the hearing today because of those problems that I have mentioned and in the circumstances, we've got no option but to postpone the matter and I will see to it that instructions are given to those who are charged with giving out notice, that such notices are properly given out and served on the proper people timeously.

I thank you. The matter is adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: Truth and Reconciliation Act Number 34 of 1995 as amended and we are convened today to hear the amnesty application of Mr Hendrik Rakgotho, Application number AM 0647/97. The Panel sitting to hear this application comprises myself, Judge Sisi Khampepe, on my right-hand side Judge Chris de Jager, on my left-hand side, Mr Wynand Malan. Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is appearing on behalf of Mr Rakgotho?

MR MORGAN: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Morgan from the firm Shulobande Sithole Morgan in Nelspruit. I'm appearing on behalf of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Morgan are we in a position to commence with this application?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, we've got a representative for the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I wasn't aware. May we have you on record?

MR MOKOENA: Chairperson, I'm V F Mokoena. I'm appearing on behalf of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are appearing on which victims?

MR MOKOENA: Next of kin Saloma Maposa and Joseph Mkonto Mkondo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Coming back to you Mr Morgan, are we in a position to proceed with this application?

MR MORGAN: Chairperson on behalf of the applicant at this stage, I would request that the matter be postponed for the following reasons.

Chairperson, we have not had sufficient opportunity to consult fully with the applicant and prepare for this hearing. The reasons therefore are as follows:

Chairperson the TRC had confirmed that they would make the applicant available at this hall yesterday in order to enable me to consult with him. My instructions are that he only arrived here in Nelspruit yesterday evening at 8 o'clock. Mr Chairperson, given the issues involved in this specific application, I would need more time than is available at present to consult and represent the applicant adequately. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokoena.

MR MOKOENA ADDRESSES: Chairperson, I have obtained instructions to oppose and application for the postponement of the hearing, mainly because my clients are coming from far and it also gives them problems when they have to come to Nelspruit. For instance, I was told, Chairperson, that my clients had to wake up at 2.00 to enable themselves to catch the transport and this is also an inconvenience to them.

My instructions are that the Committee should oppose to the postponement and the matter be proceeded with forthwith so that it can be done over and over. Thank you Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where are your clients from?

MR MOKOENA: My clients are coming from ...(indistinct) which is in the former KwaNdebele.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not one) nearer to Bronkhorstspruit and even nearer to Pretoria than Nelspruit.

MR MOKOENA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would like to leave this matter in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Morgan, can we find out from you when you were instructed formally by the TRC in this matter?

MR MORGAN: Chairperson, if I may just be given a moment to ... Chairperson, I received the formal instructions per letter dated 16th November 1991, which I received on the 18th November 1999.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that matter accompanied by all the documents pertaining to Mr Rakgotho's application?

MR MORGAN: Chairperson, that was not the position. The letter advised that the comprehensive bundle for the hearing would be forwarded to our offices on the 26th of November, 1999. That had not happened. I received the comprehensive bundle on the 3rd of November, that would be last Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: December.

MR MORGAN: December, sorry Chairperson. 3rd of December last Friday at 3.00 p.m. I was not in the office and I therefore received the documents yesterday morning when I attended the office.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And who did you communicate with at the TRC office?

MR MORGAN: I communicated with Ashika Janek.

CHAIRPERSON: And the first available opportunity you had to consult with Mr Rakgotho was this morning.

MR MORGAN: This morning, indeed, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Having considered the reasons advanced by Mr Morgan for applying for a postponement in respect of Mr Rakgotho's application, the Panel hereby grants such a postponement. It does so, notwithstanding the objections raised by Mr Mokoena on behalf of the victims.

We as a Committee are enjoined by the Act to be particularly compassionate to the victims. I just want to highlight here now that the Committee has always been compassionate to victims and the fact that we are granting Mr Morgan's application does not mean we are being insensitive and lacking of the necessary compassion we are supposed to have as a Committee to victims.

It is a fundamental right of all applicants to be properly legally represented in a hearing of this nature. The reasons advanced by Mr Morgan for not being able to proceed with the legal representation on behalf of Mr Rakgotho, are good reason advanced. We don't think Mr Morgan would be in a position to properly represent Mr Rakgotho if this application was allowed to proceed, in view of the complete lack of consultation as explained by him.

We must, however, again register our extreme displeasure at the manner in which the TRC and that is the administration of the TRC, continues to instruct attorneys to represent the interest of the applicants. It is an untenable situation that any legal representative can be instructed at a 24 hour notice as it has happened in this case and be expected to properly represent the interest of an applicant.

We hope this untenable situation will not occur in the near future, particularly as we approach the new millennium because it is instances such as these that perpetuate the snowballing of this process.

We also with Ms Mtanga, that next time a hearing of this nature is set down, we do indeed appear to be sensitive and compassionate to victims by ensuring that a venue which is appropriately located, within the victims locality, is chosen. This venue is completely inappropriate. To have victims having to travel over seven hours to attend a hearing, I think it's completely insensitive and we hope such issues will be taken into account by the administration, before deciding on a venue. This hearing is therefore postponed sine die.