DAY: 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We are back with the amnesty application that's partly heard of Mr Nkosinathi Emmanuel Mavuso. The reference number is AM7921/97. The Panel, just for the record again seeing that there was a fair break in-between the two sessions, it's chaired by myself, Denzil Potgieter. I am assisted by Adv Gcabashe and Adv Chris de Jager. I'm going to ask the parties just to put themselves on the record again. For the applicant.

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant - H J Prinsloo, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo. And then I will simply just go round clockwise.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am Louisa van der Walt. I am appearing on behalf of Mr Mkhwanazi.

MS MTANGA: Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader.

MR PADI: I'm Thabo Padi. I'm appearing for Mdu Msibi, who's implicated in this matter.

MR SHUBANE: I'm Bongane Shubane appearing on behalf of Alpheus Msibi.

MR BOTHA: Martin Botha on behalf of Mr Kunene, Mncwango and Buthelezi, implicated persons.

MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairman, N van der Walt for the brothers Samuel and Velaphi Khumalo, implicated persons.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I am Conrad Swanepoel, on instructions of the firm J H van der Merwe Inc, appearing for the brothers Amos and Philemon Mtungwa.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, I'm Chris van der Heyde, appearing on behalf of the Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I am for the family of the deceased, G Bizos of the Legal Resources Centre.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes. We had progressed at the last session up to the testimony of Mr Mtungwa, Amos.

MR BIZOS: It appears to be Kunene.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it Kunene? Are we going to Kunene? That's right. Yes, yes, yes, that's quite right. We have progressed up to the evidence of Mr Kunene and we had to interrupt the proceedings at that stage because there was an indication that there were some further witnesses who are required to testify. Ms Mtanga, what is the position with the remaining witnesses?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I intend to proceed and call the rest of the people who have been left from the previous hearing and the witness that I wish to call now is Rasta Mncwango.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

JUDGE DE JAGER: For the sake of the record, could you kindly spell his name please?

MR MNCWANGO: My name is Muzi, M-U-Z-I, the surname is Mncwango, M-N-C-W-A-N-G-O.

MUZI MNCWANGO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga.

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mncwango, what was your occupation in 1993?

MR MNCWANGO: I was involved in different businesses, first of all I was involved in taxis and a butchery as well as a general dealer.

MS MTANGA: And what is your occupation now?

MR MNCWANGO: Right now I'm running a bakery, a general dealer and I'm still involved in transport.

MS MTANGA: By transport do you mean taxi industry?

MR MNCWANGO: Not necessarily taxis. I'm no longer that much involved in taxis, I'm involved in trucking.

MS MTANGA: Are all these businesses based in Pongola and were they based in Pongola in 1993?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: In 1993, were you politically affiliated, Mr Mncwango?

MR MNCWANGO: No. I was not a member. I was not a card-carrying member of any political party at the time.

MS MTANGA: Were you a supporter of any political party at that time?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: What party was that?

MR MNCWANGO: The PAC.

MS MTANGA: Do you know the applicant, Mr Mncwango?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell this Committee how you came to know the applicant and where you met him?

MR MNCWANGO: I met him for the first time through Nkosinathi Mavuso at the IFP office. That was in 1994 or at the beginning of 1995. I'm not quite certain. If it was not at the end of 1994, it was at the beginning of 1995.

MS MTANGA: What were you doing at the IFP offices at that time?

MR MNCWANGO: I had joined the IFP for which I was working.

MS MTANGA: When did you join the IFP?

MR MNCWANGO: In 1994.

MS MTANGA: Do you currently hold any office within the IFP?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: What office?

MR MNCWANGO: I am Chairperson of the District Committee.

MS MTANGA: When were you appointed as the Chairman of the District Committee?

MR MNCWANGO: In 78, September.

MS MTANGA: You earlier indicated that you first met Mr Mavuso, the applicant, at the IFP offices in 1994. Can you tell us more as to how you came to meet him, what were the circumstances of you two meeting?

MR MNCWANGO: I went into the office, it was during the day. He was sitting at the office with some female secretary and he introduced himself to me. That's how I got to know him. I did the same, introducing myself to him.

MS MTANGA: You were present when the applicant gave evidence that you were amongst a team of people who went to visit his home at Paul Pietersburg?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I was present. Yes, I did hear him render that testimony.

MS MTANGA: Were you amongst the people who visited him at Paul Pietersburg?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell the Committee what was the reason for you to be in that team of people?

MR MNCWANGO: This is what happened.

He did not give us the name, if there was anybody instructing him and we then had an altercation. I left them as they were standing there and I indicated to them that I'm not going to get involved in this anymore. I just excused myself and I stood on the side as they continued talking. You see, we had parked the car across the street. The came, joined me and we drove back. That's the last time I saw of him. On going to his place, that's what happened. One thing I will say about him is the fact that his father was there present when we were discussing about this. I asked him questions in the presence of his father. That's all.

MS MTANGA: Did you office help Mr Mavuso with the financial assistance that he was asking, that is the IFP office in Pongola?

MR MNCWANGO: No. The IFP office, I went back to give the report to my Chairman and the Committee at large and furnished them with the report and explained all the details regarding my visit to Paul Pietersburg and they also discerned themselves from the end, that was the end. He never got any help from the office, so to speak.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mncwango, did you know the deceased, Mr Mcetywa?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, very well.

MS MTANGA: How did you come to know Mr Mcetywa?

MR MNCWANGO: The deceased, I know him from, I think we know each other from childhood. We grew up together and we were playing soccer together until such time that we were adults and we worked together in one office, until such time that we parted ways. I went my way, but we've always been friends. Just before his death, I think it was about 3 days that I saw him before his death together with the old man sitting behind no shoes, no strike.

MS MTANGA: Did you know what political organisation Mr Mcetywa belonged to?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes. Mr Mcetywa was an ANC member.

MS MTANGA: In your knowledge of Mr Mcetywa, were you particularly aware of his political activism, especially his relationship with the IFP. Did you know of any animosity between him and the IFP, due to his activism as an ANC member?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, he has never complained about anything and also as a person who resided in the area, I've never seen anything that suggested any friction between him and the IFP at the time and he has also never made mention of anything to this effect. He would also come visit with Shoes and Strike and others. Then they had no problems whatsoever. It was peaceful.

MS MTANGA: Evidence has been led to the effect that Mr Mcetywa could have been killed as a result of the boycott of the taxi industry because he was perceived by the taxi owners as leading or spearheading the boycott, what do you say to this?

MR MNCWANGO: You see in so far as it relates to that, the person who articulated all of that has no knowledge whatsoever about the incidents and occurrences in the are of Pongola, because just about any person who is in this room, has full knowledge of what was happening in Pongola, knows as well as I do that in so far, or with regards to the boycott of the taxis at the time, Mike had no say and had no activity that he carried in furtherance of that boycott. There were some other people who were involved, but not him. That's how I will put it. Well, I don't know if this is enough for me to say.

MS MTANGA: At the time of the death of Mr Mcetywa, did you hold any position within the taxi industry in Pongola?

MR MNCWANGO: Well at the time I had a couple of taxis, a few taxis and I held no position in the industry as we may very know that there will be an executive committee of the taxi association and I was not a member of such a committee and also often times than not, I would not be around the taxi ranks because my mind was always preoccupied with other things, other businesses I had. In other words you will find me more in other businesses that I ran, more than taxis. I will not be around the taxi ranks as it was a practise with other taxi owners.

MS MTANGA: Your evidence is that you held no office within the taxi industry structures, in 1993 that is.

MR MNCWANGO: No, not at that stage.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Prinsloo, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mncwango, when Mr Mcetywa was murdered, did you hear of it?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you also hear that a person was arrested for the murder of Mr Mcetywa?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you hear of it before he appeared in Court? Did you attend the court procedures when Mr Mavuso, the accused at that stage, had appeared in court for the first time?

MR MNCWANGO: I lost quite a number of words. Can you please run that by me.

MR PRINSLOO: The first appearance of Mr Mavuso when he appeared in the magistrates court in Pongola with regard to the murder of Mr Mcetywa, did you attend the court proceedings?

MR MNCWANGO: No, I was not at court. I've never appeared, not even once, from the first time to the last time.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you aware that many supporters of the IFP attended the court procedures in Pongola as well as in Piet Retief?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, I will not have that much knowledge as far as Piet Retief, but I remember per se about Pongola, that the IFP supporters, most of them who were coming from the ...(indistinct) area, did go to Pongola. I saw a number of them marching, going in that direction and I was also involved in my own other things. I saw them with my own eyes.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, did you support the IFP when Mr Mcetywa was murdered?

MR MNCWANGO: No, at the time I had not heard a thing about IFP as such. I did make mention of the fact that, in my evidence in chief, that then I was close to PAC or aligned more to PAC, I had nothing to do with IFP at that particular time.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that time were you a member of the PAC?

MR MNCWANGO: I was not a card-carrying member, but I shared the same sentiments with the part.

MR PRINSLOO: That is the PAC?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: So, you did not support members of the IFP at that stage?

MR MNCWANGO: No.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, did you know Mr Amos Mtungwa?

MR MNCWANGO: Who was that? Yes, I knew Mtungwa by sight, not that I had spoken to him before, but he was one well-known figure, prominent figure in the area. I knew him from the time I was still attending school. I knew him, yes, in that sense, but not that we had spoken together, but I'm quite sure of the fact that he did not know me because the first time I was introduced to him, he also displayed that he did not know me at all, because I was introduced to him in 1994. It was on a Friday and we were going to go to Hattingspruit in some meeting the following Saturday.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know Mr Philemon Mtungwa at that stage?

MR MNCWANGO: No. I knew Philemon Mtungwa for the first time in the true sense of knowing, just yesterday. I had been looking for him. He did not know me as well and I did not know him too. I was phoned by one of the policemen, Kalusa, who is the one who delivered, or gave me a subpoena to appear here and said I must go via Piet Retief and pick up a person by the name of Philemon Mtungwa, then I said to him: "I don't know the person" and he said: "You will park at Toyota garage in Piet Retief, then he will emerge around there and this is his telephone number" and indeed I gave him a call and he asked as to which car I was driving and I had to give him the description of the vehicle I was driving and yesterday in the morning, that happened yesterday in the morning. When I got to Piet Retief, I parked the car there and he could not identify me as well as myself and I had already told him that I'm driving a bakkie. He went back to the police station to report and call Kalusa that he could not locate me. I kept seeing the person walking around, but I had no idea, any sense that that could be the person I was waiting for. In other words, I'm trying to explain that I did not know Philemon and the very first time I met and saw and knew Philemon was yesterday.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know Mr Sam Khumalo?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Velaphi Khumalo?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know both of them at that stage when the deceased was murdered? And in which capacity did you know both of them?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, we knew one another as colleagues in the taxi industry. As for Velaphi, I did not know him quite well because I think at the time Velaphi had about 6 months in the area, but the one person I knew very well was Sam. I did not quite know Velaphi and we had never shared any discussion or engaged in any kind of conversation with Velaphi as he was new in the area.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Kunene, did you know him?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: In which capacity did you know him?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, about Mr Kunene, I knew him as one elderly brother or man who was there in the area and working for the magistrate, not that we were quite used to each other or we were friends as such. Well, he led his own life, I led my own life. I knew him, that he was residing in that part of the area and I was residing in my own part of the area and how we knew each other, one could even qualify that by saying the year will go past without us seeing each other or meeting or talking, for that matter, but I know him for quite a long time, or from long ago.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Sanda Nlangamandla, did you know him?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, I knew him, but now he is late.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you, at that stage, before the death of the deceased, did you know him? Did you know him well?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I knew him very well because he had taxis and I also had taxis. Each time we had taxi meetings and we will meet each other at such meetings and after the meeting, he'll go his way, I'll go my way and secondly, he also resided in Motchani, the same area in which I resided.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have good relations with him at that stage?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, I would say, I don't know exactly what you mean by saying a good relationship. Could you qualify that maybe? Maybe let me say this to you, then you will in turn tell me if this is, or it suffices to say, and you will also judge on your own if we had a good relationship with him. By way of starting I would say Sandile Mandla was a member of taxi association, that was Pongola Taxi Association during this time of the conflicts we are referring to and at that stage, I was myself a member of Motchani Taxi Association. Shortly before these problems, we encountered a period where both associations would have to work from one point or one station and share meetings, then that's how I drew closer to him but before, when the Associations worked independently of each other, I will simply say there was no love lost between the two of us. This is how I will put it and I throw the ball in your court now.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Buthelezi, did you know him before and during the time of the death of the deceased?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: When did you start supporting the IFP?

MR MNCWANGO: In 1994. I'm still thinking. Well, I think, let me see, it was around May, June 1994 because it was after the elections and the reason why I had to join IFP, I took that decision around April of that year, between May and June, because the decision I'd made around April, but to join in essence, that happened around May and June.

MR PRINSLOO: You know the elections were held at the end of April of 1994?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I know that.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you then vote for the IFP or the ANC or the PAC?

MR MNCWANGO: No, that I will not divulge because I don't know what your interest, or why do you have interest in that. I will just not, I will keep that private and confidential and that's my private knowledge, not unless No, the Honourable Chair insists that I do that. I will do it at the word of the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I think it's in order. Just now we must all disclose.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson. Is it your evidence that you started supporting the IFP after the election of 1994? I am not asking who you voted for, I am asking did you start supporting the IFP after the election of 1994?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, I think I've lost you somehow. Can you please run that line of questioning by me one more time, so I can answer precisely?

MR PRINSLOO: Is it your evidence that only after the election of 1994, you started supporting the IFP?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, I'm with you. Let me go back a bit. I said earlier on, the incident that led to my support of IFP happened in April so that I, to join, take out my money from my pocket and get the card of IFP, that happened between May and June. I don't quite understand your question, exactly what you expect my answer to be.

MR PRINSLOO: When were you appointed as secretary of the IFP?

MR MNCWANGO: It was 1994, around September. September, October around there.

MR PRINSLOO: Then you made quite rapid progress in the IFP to be appointed as secretary of the IFP in September of 1994?

MR MNCWANGO: Well that is exactly so, that's what happened.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it a well-known fact that you had been previously a supporter of the PAC amongst the IFP supporters?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, that was well-known by the members of ANC as well as the IFP members. Everybody knew, that was not a secret.

MR PRINSLOO: At the time of the murder of the deceased, Mr Mcetywa, is it so that the ANC accused the IFP of the murder of Mr Mcetywa?

MR MNCWANGO: Please repeat that question.

MR PRINSLOO: At the stage when the deceased was murdered in Pongola, did the ANC accuse the IFP that they were responsible for the murder of the deceased, Mr Mcetywa?

MR MNCWANGO: I would not say that with certainty because there's no ANC member who came to me to say it was the IFP who killed Mcetywa. So many things were said, accusation were flying around and some ANC members were being suspected and the State Security was being suspected as well. The IFP itself could have been suspected because somebody came from outside our area and committed this crime. That is how I can put it.

MR PRINSLOO: You have heard the evidence of, for example, Mr Vermeulen and others, with regard to the court appearance, on the first appearance of the accused, that there were the two camps, the IFP and the ANC and there was much support for the accused at that stage and much ANC support for the deceased at that stage.

MR MNCWANGO: Are you talking about the ANC people?

MR PRINSLOO: The question is, if you don't understand it, I shall divide it, there was support from the IFP side, much support for the accused during court procedures in Pongola. Deal with that first.

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I did hear that being said by Vermeulen, but there's nothing I can say about that because I was not on the scene. You see, I cannot testify about something that was said about somebody in my absence.

MR PRINSLOO: Were there any rumours in Pongola at that stage, that the IFP was blamed for the death of the deceased?

MR MNCWANGO: As I have put it, many people were suspected, the ANC was being suspected, the IFP, the State Security, there were these accusations and suspicions, many people were being suspected.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know Mr Mdu Msibi? He is here today. He is next to the member of Correctional Services.

MR MNCWANGO: I knew him on July when we came here, that's when I saw him.

MR PRINSLOO: A document was handed over to us, which was dated the 23rd of June 1999, which seems to be a statement from the Mdu John Msibi and in this statement in the second paragraph, I would just like to read to you what it says. It is said by Mr Msibi:

JUDGE DE JAGER: I beg your pardon, Mr Prinsloo, are you reading from the statement?

MR PRINSLOO: I have been quoting from the statement from paragraph 2, Honourable Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was this a statement made to the police?

MR PRINSLOO: This statement was made available to us at the first appearance. It was dated 22nd of June 1999 and this would have come from the persons of the family, which was given to us. It was handed up by the Evidence Leader.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I am asking was it handed up as an exhibit?

MR PRINSLOO: I am not sure whether this was handed up as an exhibit, Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: There is a statement, but it is in English. This is from Mr Msibi.

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson, the statement was also made in English. Can we just look at the document that you have? It would appear from here to be the same document. If we could just show the document to each other.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, have you got any comment on that?

MR MNCWANGO: Honourable Chairperson, all I can say is that that which has just been read is nothing but blue lies. That is not true. I don't even know the homestead of Mr Msibi. This is just utter lies. The person who testified to this is telling a lie, he knows this fully well.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mncwango, is it your evidence as far as you know that the murder of the deceased had nothing whatsoever to do with any form of taxi boycott? That it had nothing to do with the taxi industry as such?

MR MNCWANGO: What I said is that the deceased had nothing to do with the taxi boycott. Everybody who resides in Pongola knows this. He never addressed us at a meeting about this taxi thing, he never said a thing about the taxi boycott. I know because I was in contact with him. He was never involved in this. I know this directly from him. There were people who were saying things about the taxi boycott but then I cannot say something that I don't know. I am saying this because I know what I am talking about.

MR PRINSLOO: In the evidence of the applicant, Mr Mavuso, you have heard this, he said that the motive for the killing of the deceased was political and that he acted on behalf of the IFP. Did you hear this?

MR MNCWANGO: He was working in the name of the IFP.

MR PRINSLOO: Now you say that you spoke to Mr Mavuso at a later stage at his home as well as the offices of the IFP in Pongola.

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: I just want to be certain that I understood your evidence correctly. Do you say that Mr Mavuso, at his home, admitted to you that he killed the deceased, or what say you?

MR MNCWANGO: No, I didn't say that. He did not admit anything to me. The impression that I got as he spoke, he spoke as somebody who was hiding something, that's the conclusion that I came to, that is why I excused myself from the meeting. He presented himself as somebody who was hiding a number of things, but when I was talking to him for the first time, he said quite confidently, insisting that he did not commit the crime, he had come from Nongoma.

MR PRINSLOO: Now at the stage when Mr Mavuso the applicant, according to you evidence approached you for the first time in Pongola for financial assistance from the IFP, you knew that he had been accused of the death of Mr Mcetywa, is that correct?

MR MNCWANGO: Are you saying at the time of writing the letter, I already knew that he had been charged for killing the deceased? Will you please explain that?

MR PRINSLOO: I'm not referring to a letter, I'm saying that according to your evidence you said that the accused, Mr Mavuso came to the IFP offices in Pongola, where he requested financial assistance from the IFP. At that stage, were you aware of the fact that the accused had been charged with the murder of Mr Mcetywa?

MR MNCWANGO: Let me just explain this, so that there's no confusion as we continue. He did not go to the IFP office at Pongola. I said he wrote a letter. When I say to you please repeat your question, I requested, I wanted to know from you whether you were talking about a letter or what? He had sent the letter by hand.

MR PRINSLOO: You say that the letter was brought there by Mr Nlangamandla and at that stage what you could determine from Mr Nlangamandla was that this person was asking for financial assistance and that he had been accused for the murder of Mr Mcetywa and would the IFP be prepared to assist someone financially, someone who had killed a member of the ANC or at least had allegedly killed a member of the ANC on the one hand, where he was innocent and on the other where he was guilty?

MR MNCWANGO: I have never seen that happening.

MR PRINSLOO: So when you received the letter from Mr Nlangamandla, what did you do immediately thereafter? Who did you speak to?

MR MNCWANGO: Sanda brought the letter along and I said: "Look, I'm at the office, I will phone the District Chairman." I phoned Sibiya who suggested to me that I investigate the matter and take the whole matter up.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you take the letter into possession when Mr Nlangamandla showed it to you?

MR MNCWANGO: No, the letter was not addressed to me. I did not take receipt of the letter. Sanda is the one who produced the letter, opened it and it was discussed. The father of the applicant was also present.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you referring to the events which took place at the home of the applicant, or where are you, are you at the office?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I'm talking about what happened at the office and at the home of the applicant. When I'm saying I left Sanda with the letter, I also refer to the fact that he took the letter along to the home of the applicant.

MR PRINSLOO: So are you saying that the applicant was at the office?

MR MNCWANGO: He came to the office before the letter came, that is when I saw him for the first time. He was sitting there at the office with the secretary.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you speak to him?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I did.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did he tell you? In connection with what? He was at the office. What did he say to you? Did you ask him what he was doing there?

MR MNCWANGO: What he said was that he was coming from Nongoma where he was arrested on road to Dumbe. He was hungry, he said and I think we had some meals with him there. That's what he said to me explaining the reason for his presence there.

MR PRINSLOO: What had he been arrested for? Did he tell you what the State's allegation was?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, he did indicate. He said he was arrested for shooting a person, Mcetywa, at Pongola, but he said he didn't commit that crime.

MR PRINSLOO: You then knew that this person was a member of the IFP and that he was requesting assistance from the IFP. He also maintained that he had been falsely accused at that stage for the murder of Mr Mcetywa, is that correct, because he maintained at that stage that he was innocent, according to your version.

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, he did say that. He said he was not guilty of any crime.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Prinsloo, just the second aspect to your question. Mr Mncwango, did Mr Mavuso actually ask for assistance on that occasion?

MR MNCWANGO: No. Not on that occasion. Even the food itself, he joined us as we were eating.

MR PRINSLOO: Now Mr Mncwango, can you give us any reason why the applicant would go to Pongola to the IFP offices there and not request any assistance and according to you, simply ask for something to eat? Is that what you are saying?

MR MNCWANGO: My apology Chairperson, maybe we have a problem with the interpretation. May the question please be repeated?

MR PRINSLOO: Can you present any reason why the applicant would go to Pongola and visit the IFP offices there and only ask for something to eat?

MR MNCWANGO: You see, the man didn't ask for food, he was simply seated there with us up to and including the time that we had something to eat and he also had something to eat with us. I didn't say he asked for food.

MR PRINSLOO: But then why did he go there? Can you give us any reason why he would be at the IFP offices in Pongola? What would he be looking for?

MR MNCWANGO: It is not uncommon. The IFP office at Pongola is like the community centre. Anybody who had nothing or who has no problem with the IFP, does come to the office. You therefore do not ask a person why he had come to the office. Above that, he had also indicated to me that he was a member of the IFP. You know members of the IFP frequent that place as well as they wish.

MR PRINSLOO: And this was the man who had been charged for the murder of Mr Mcetywa and he didn't know you, according to your version and he doesn't ask for anything, he simply says: "Here I am, I am somebody who has been accused of the murder of this person".

MR MNCWANGO: He introduced himself to me, indicating where he had come from and I introduced myself to him as well. That is, I would not say to him he shouldn't talk about such things, I would not have prevented him from saying what he wanted to say.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you recall on which date this was?

MR MNCWANGO: No, I cannot recall the date, what I can say to you is that this happened, it could have been in 1995, I am not certain. Yes, I am not certain. I cannot even give you the month or the date, but it could have been around 1995.

MR PRINSLOO: Had you determined, at that stage, whether or not his trial was underway or what the position was with this member of the IFP who arrived at the IFP offices maintaining his innocence?

MR MNCWANGO: The reason for his coming to the office was not anything connected to the crime for which he said he was charged. He just mentioned that in passing as we were talking. He had not come to tell us about the case in which he was involved. I did not even ask him any question about that. I was not concerned about that.

MR PRINSLOO: And in order to understand your evidence then, the applicant arrived at the IFP offices for no reason whatsoever, simply in passing he mentioned to you that he was the man who had been accused of the murder of Mr Mcetywa and then he also told you that he was innocent, that he was hiking at that stage and that he had absolutely nothing to do with the murder. In other words, that he had been falsely implicated.

MR MNCWANGO: I'd rather not say anything because it looks like you're asking me the same question all over again. I did indicate and I explained how this happened. He introduced himself. I did mention that. Now really, I don't know what you want me to say.

MR PRINSLOO: Did he request financial assistance at that stage?

MR MNCWANGO: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Didn't he ask for any IFP financial assistance? He didn't say anything in connection with the matter?

MR MNCWANGO: No, he did not say anything pertaining to his desire to being assisted by the IFP. He did not ask for assistance at the time at the office. I think I'm saying this for the third time now.

MR PRINSLOO: And no one who was in control of that office was told that this person who was there, was the one who had been accused of the murder of Mr Mcetywa, no Chairperson, or any such person?

MR MNCWANGO: You don't do that, no. You see, you don't pick up rumour from people in the streets and inform the Chairperson about it. This is not how it works. If you don't know, I'm telling you now.

MR PRINSLOO: You say that thereafter Mr Nlangamandla arrived there with a letter which, according to you, had been composed by the applicant, not only thereafter.

MR MNCWANGO: The distance is apart.

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant arrived at the IFP offices and after that, some time after that, Mr Nlangamandla arrived there with a letter.

MR MNCWANGO: It was quite a long time. You know, the times between the incidents were far apart really but if you were to ask me the exact time, or the date, I am just not in the position to do that because I was not noting down everything as it was happening to say, alright Mavuso did come to us today, Sanda did come to us today. Look, I was not noting everything as it was happening. Yes, I will give you dates as and when I remember, but really, I cannot recall the dates. These are not things that I kept in memory.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it days, weeks, months? Can you give us any such indication?

MR MNCWANGO: Not weeks. Yes, it could have been months, not weeks. If you're talking about weeks, that period is very short.

MR PRINSLOO: So you say that it was a matter of months?

MR MNCWANGO: That may be so. I am not certain, yes, it can be months, or a month, really, I am not quite sure, but certainly it was not a week.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Nlangamandla produced this letter. Did you then know that this letter came from the applicant, the very same man who had spoken to you there and told you that he had been accused as the murderer of Mr Mcetywa?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, that is exactly what the letter was saying.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you then realise that this letter which you had received from Nlangamandla had originated from the very same person who had visited your offices previously and had informed you that he had been falsely accused of the murder?

MR MNCWANGO: It was written in the letter. He clearly indicated that this is the same person because the name Nkosinathi Mavuso was clearly written in the letter so it became very easy for me to know that this is the person that I met before.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, did you already know when you received the letter that the applicant had told you that he had been falsely accused of murder?

MR MNCWANGO: Would you repeat the question please?

MR PRINSLOO: Certainly. At the stage when Mr Nlangamandla produced the letter to you, you already knew the applicant's version because he had told you upon his previous visit that he was a hitch hiker and that he was not responsible for the murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he had already informed me that he was innocent.

MR PRINSLOO: And after you received the letter or at least after you saw the letter when Mr Nlangamandla showed it to you, did you then tell the Chairperson that there was this person who was applying for financial assistance and that this person had already told you that he was innocent of the murder, before you went to the house.

MR MNCWANGO: Before we went to who's house?

MR PRINSLOO: Before you went to the home of the applicant.

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I did that. I went to the Mavuso home because I was sent by the Chairman of the district. That was after I had phoned him in the presence of Sanda indicating that there was this letter.

MR PRINSLOO: Is this the visit to the person after you saw the letter, before you went to the home of the applicant?

MR MNCWANGO: Maybe there's a confusion here, what I am saying here is that before I went to the Mavuso home, I had already informed the Chairperson of the District. He is the one who said I should go and meet with the Dumbe District. I then telephoned Thembinkosi Mbatha, after I had spoken to the Chairperson of the District. That is what I've said at the beginning of this testimony.

MR PRINSLOO: And you heard that Mr Mavuso had worked in Piet Retief, that he had been a member there. Why would he then be seeking assistance in Pongola, why would he seek financial assistance in Pongola, if he had nothing to do with Pongola in the first place?

MR MNCWANGO: I cannot do that. Do you want me to give you my guesses? Look, we are not dealing with guesses here, I cannot answer that question. He is the one who can answer that question.

MR PRINSLOO: But you heard his evidence and he said that he committed the murder under your orders there in Pongola and that is why he went to Pongola. If he had gone there, that is why he went there.

MR MNCWANGO: Those are two different things. The truth and lies do not mix. Look, I don't know what Mavuso is thinking. I cannot even say why he did this and who was he with and where this originated from. Really I cannot answer this question.

MR PRINSLOO: Who went with you to the home of Mavuso?

MR MNCWANGO: There was Sam Khumalo at Jelejuba and Sanda - there were 5 of us basically. It was Sam Khumalo.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you say now? We have two or three that are with you. Did you say Buthelezi? I will give you the names that you have provided thus far: Sam Khumalo, Sanda Nlangamandla, Buthelezi, you yourself and Velaphi Khumalo.

MR MNCWANGO: As well as Velaphi Khumalo.

MR PRINSLOO: Now for which reason did you take Buthelezi along with you?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, simply because I wanted a person from the leadership in the party to go with. Because Buthelezi was the Chairman of the branch and was also serving at the constituency of Simulane, I asked him to accompany me. That I did make mention of even the first time.

MR PRINSLOO: Very well. And then why did you take Sanda Nlangamandla with you?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I was supposed to take him with.

MR PRINSLOO: Sam Khumalo?

MR MNCWANGO: He was already in the house of - in Sanda's house, that I will not respond to. What I'm saying to you is, the person I asked to go with, there were two people I knew who were going to go with me, it was Sanda and the other one and when I got there I found the others already there. It was not me who asked them to go with and I did not even ask why.

MR PRINSLOO: Where did you meet Sam Khumalo on that day? Where was he? Why did he go with?

MR MNCWANGO: At Sanda Nlangamandla's house together with Velaphi, then we left from there.

MR PRINSLOO: Did all 5 of you go? You were the person who had the primary interest here because you had been delegated by your branch to investigate the matter pertaining to this person who was requesting financial assistance. What did you want to determine from him?

MR MNCWANGO: Well the one thing that I was assigned to, was to investigate this matter and what drove the person to write the letter, because he wanted assistance from the members of the District of Pongola and the District of Pongola's leadership wanted to know as to what he was talking about and why he was doing that, what was the motivation behind and we did not get to the reason why because he was evasive with the truth and I reported exactly that and I told them that the man was quite evasive and I did not quite understand.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mncwango, it was a fact that the applicant at that stage had been charged and accused of the murder of Mr Mcetywa in Pongola. Is that correct? Do you agree?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, that's what was said.

MR PRINSLOO: Secondly it was also fact that Mr Mcetywa had been shot dead in Pongola, that is the second point.

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And it is also fact that the applicant was a member of the IFP, that is the third point. Furthermore it is a fact that the deceased was a member of the ANC, do you agree with this?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: There are four factors. What were you supposed to investigate in order to uncover the lies?

MR MNCWANGO: That is the fifth point.

MR PRINSLOO: What is that?

MR MNCWANGO: The fact that he composed a letter and requested financial assistance, that is the fifth fact pertaining to this matter which you have not mentioned.

MR PRINSLOO: Well then, if it is accepted that he composed the letter requesting assistance, then it wouldn't be a lie if that were to be accepted.

MR MNCWANGO: If he had not written the letter there wouldn't have been any reason to investigate the matter, if he had not written the letter.

MR PRINSLOO: What I want to determine from you Sir, is what exactly were you supposed to investigate? You said that he wrote a letter and you have admitted to these four points. What exactly were you supposed to investigate?

MR MNCWANGO: To solicit help from us, that was the first one, why, and secondly why would he not go to the District of Dumbe to solicit help from them. I said I never was in contact with him, but with the leadership of Dumbe, inquiring about this person who was coming from that district and soliciting help from us, now I wanted to track it down and follow how it went from one point to the next. When I spoke to Thembinkosi, Thembinkosi told me that he knew the person very well and he was coming from that area but as to why he wrote the letter and the motivation of writing the letter, he did not know, until we agreed that we'll meet and convene on Saturday and discuss this and when we got to Dumbe, I did explain what. I wonder if this is helpful to you, Mr Prinsloo.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly assist me? If an ordinary member of the IFP committed a criminal act, he murdered somebody, would the IFP assist him in his criminal trial if it had nothing to do with the party or with politics? An ordinary criminal committed a murder.

MR MNCWANGO: Well I don't think so. That has never happened. I really don't think that person will be helped in any way or given assistance. I've never see that or witnessed any of that thing.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So if it was an ordinary murder, committed by a criminal, there would be no necessity to investigate the matter?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, I will not say that with great certainty, but I would say as for me, I was assigned by the leadership to do what I was assigned to do and I did as I was assigned and gave back the report, but then I don't think I am in the position to say why I did that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So as far as you could see it, you had no discretion, you were ordered to investigate it?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Therefore Mr Mncwango, what did you investigate? Please tell the Committee what did you investigate?

MR MNCWANGO: First of all, my investigation was going to resume as soon as I met with the District Committee of Dumbe. From there advance until I get to Mavuso, but then that never went the way we planned, because then we did not find the people we were supposed to have found in the office. The very first person we met was Mavuso and I interrogated Mavuso regarding this and asked him about the letter, if he was the one who wrote it. He admitted to that and I asked his problem and he explained his problem, that he wanted help for paying and for the money that was needed by the court about his case and then that's when he began to dilly dally about the whole situation and being evasive.

MR PRINSLOO: In connection with what was he vague? You have said that he was vague, in what respect was he vague?

MR MNCWANGO: You see, I am more than 50 years old, when you speak to a person and the person is innocent, you will be able to tell that he is purely answering innocently to my questions but then once a person begins to be evasive, then you will know there is something amiss about what he is saying, then that is what I'm saying, or referring to when I saw he was vague, not that I was alone, Buthelezi was in my company, the one seated behind me, his father was in our company when he was putting such an act.

MR PRINSLOO: So you say he was evasive. You say he was vague and evasive and you suspected that he was indeed guilty although he maintained that he was not, is that what you're saying?

MR MNCWANGO: I did not say that. Why I went there was to get the truth about this matter as to whether he was guilty or not. I did not say he was guilty.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you want to determine?

MR MNCWANGO: It was the reason specifically why the Pongola constituency was requested for assistance and not at Pietersburg where he lived.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was his answer to that?

MR MNCWANGO: He just kept on saying that he was just asking assistance, he could not put forward any reason. He did not even say that, I'd already requested for help in Dumbe. Nothing. He was just evasive and vague and dilly dallying about the truth and I could tell that this is taking us nowhere and I went back to give the report.

MR PRINSLOO: With regard to what Mr Mncwango, I don't understand? With regard to what he did not speak the truth?

MR MNCWANGO: With regard to the reason why he did not request assistance from his own constituency.

MR PRINSLOO: What did he tell you? Why did he not approach his own constituency for assistance?

MR MNCWANGO: I beg your pardon.

MR PRINSLOO: What did he tell you why did he not go to his own constituency for financial assistance?

MR MNCWANGO: It is because he did not respond direct and was straightforward. Even to date I have no explanation to that effect.

MR PRINSLOO: But he must have given an answer. What was that answer?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, he was going on and on and saying: "Please help, please help." That's all what he was saying. Now when you ask a person: "Why have you done this?" and he will not account, you wonder. He insisted and reiterated the fact that he wanted help until I left him alone.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that all that he said, nothing else?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, he said that, Buthelezi was there, he also posed his own questions and the other men posed questions to him, but what I will say to you is, our meeting or that discussion for that matter, was not put to closure in my presence. I left them and I went outside to sit. I excused myself from that discussion. By the time they finished with him, I was not there, because I could tell that this was taking us nowhere, so I did not get anything solid from him.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you excuse yourself from there? You were the delegate, you were the secretary and you have other people continue?

MR MNCWANGO: What I was there for was already done. I could tell that he was not forthcoming with the truth and I decided to leave him alone because there was nothing else I could do or any mechanism I could employ because there was no way I would coerce him to say anything.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage you knew this was a serious matter and the IFP was involved as opposed to the ANC. A member of the ANC was murdered in Pongola and here is a man from the IFP who is being accused of the murder and the ANC and IFP are directly opposed to each other and after the murder there was violence in Pongola and nothing is done about it. Is that what you're saying?

MR MNCWANGO: You see what you're saying now, you are saying what you want to say and I did not say that, you see. What I said to you was, the reason why I had gone there, I was assigned and I did that as assigned and went back but now when you turn around and say there was ANC and IFP side by side, then there was nothing I did to alleviate the problem, I will tell you that that thing had nothing to do with the IFP. As I said, I worked for IFP from Pongola, there was no fight or conflict whatsoever, I was free, I was at liberty to do whatever I wanted to do. You see the picture now you are portraying, you are doing it yourself and that was not necessarily the situation in the area. There was no one in conflict with another.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mncwango, who paid for the applicant's court case? You don't know who paid his bail?

MR MNCWANGO: I don't know. He did not even tell me that during the times I met with him.

MR PRINSLOO: You see Mr Mncwango, I put it to you that the applicant never paid for his own defence and he did not pay his bail either. He said it was paid by members of the IFP.

MR MNCWANGO: I have no idea. I'm saying I have no idea. I don't have that knowledge.

MR PRINSLOO: We can determine who paid it. Now you have heard what the allegations levelled by the applicant against you were, you have been here, I do not want to question you at length on that. Were you present in the Wimpy where a meeting was held?

MR MNCWANGO: No that's a blatant lie, that's not true. That's nonsense.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you saying that this was false with regard to the meeting and so forth?

MR MNCWANGO: Please don't hurry me. Let me take my time. When you say all what he has said, I don't understand now. You had asked at Wimpy, was this the place where we met. I'm saying that's a blatant lie. I've never been in Wimpy with this person. He knows very well that he is lying through his teeth now. He knows very well that I've never been there. Okay. Other things that he has alluded to, that he has done with other people in my absence, I would not be in a position to respond to that. I'm talking about what he has said in relation to me, but he's a liar. He is lying, this one, he is telling a lie, a blatant lie and through his teeth he is lying. He is just defaming my name and lying, through and through.

MR PRINSLOO: On the Papingoma Road, did you hear that, were you there?

MR MNCWANGO: I heard that as well and I heard that he said - this one said I was at Wimpy, he's lying. He's irritating me, he's lying.

MR PRINSLOO: And at the place - are you saying that the meeting with regard to the death of this person is false, in so far as it has regard to you?

MR MNCWANGO: My presence in that, that is a lie. That will always remain a lie.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see the applicant's father again after the so-called meeting at his house?

MR MNCWANGO: No, I've never seen his father since.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Velaphi Khumalo, did he drive a white bakkie at any stage?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, Toyota. Yes, yes, I recall that very well. He once had a white Hi-Lux.

MR PRINSLOO: What was the make of the bakkie?

MR MNCWANGO: It was a Hi-Lux, if my memory serves me well. I think it was Toyota.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know a person by the names of Msuno Ngcobo, a witchdoctor?

MR MNCWANGO: From where? Tell me that name, repeat the name, come.

MR PRINSLOO: One moment please. Msununu Ngogo. ...(not translated) (Transcriber's translation - do you know such a person?)

MR MNCWANGO: Well, let's cut this whole matter short. I don't know. You see that's an insult what you've uttered, but I don't know that person.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you at any stage take the applicant to any witchdoctor?

MR MNCWANGO: Me? No.

MR PRINSLOO: You. With the bakkie of Velaphi Khumalo.

MR MNCWANGO: No, I had even driven Velaphi's car even once. That's another lie on top of the others. Lies, lies, lies. These are lies. He's just picking on me.

MR PRINSLOO: One moment please Chairperson. Do you know a place by the name of Ndundulu, it's just past Belmont.

MR MNCWANGO: Please repeat that name.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know such a place that is just past Belmont?

MR MNCWANGO: Well the one place I know in kwaNdundulu - are you saying kwaNdundulu? Are you referring to kwaNdundulu? If you're referring to kwaNdundulu, then I know except to say maybe I don't understand you, but then if you're referring to kwaNdundulu, towards Melmoth going to Empangeni, then that area I know.

MR PRINSLOO: It is the same place. The applicant confirms it. He says that you drove with that bakkie. He was present. You took him to a Sangoma and when you drove in the bakkie, there was a passenger in the back that fell from the bakkie. Do you know of any such incident?

MR MNCWANGO: This man is delirious, then what happened to that person who fell off from the bakkie? That's a lie. There's nothing like that.

MR PRINSLOO: That visit was to the Sangoma in support of the applicant during his trial.

MR MNCWANGO: Well, that's a lie. Even Velaphi would say and attest to the fact that there is nothing like that. Each time there's an accident that will be reported to the police. If you were to go to the police station and you inquire about my name in the past, you'll not find anything to that effect. You see that man sitting right next to you, he's telling a lie. Well let me ask you, if I do have the right, who was that person that I dropped from the van?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a note of what you say. You dispute, you deny that you were ever driving this vehicle, so we don't need to take it further than that. What else is there Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson. Was your house, after this incident, was your house ever attacked?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: By whom?

MR MNCWANGO: Well by the people of the community who had problems with busses and taxis, that's how I take it or that's how I took it. You see, because there were people from ANC and IFP, so it was both parties represented in the community.

MR PRINSLOO: Were any of them political, the attacks on your house?

MR MNCWANGO: Well, I know what happened. I assaulted boys who had stopped my taxi and broke a window and I was called from home to go there and I found them in the act and I assaulted them with a stick, very hard and after that they organised this even, this incident. It had nothing to do with politics. Everybody who is here who comes from Pongola knows that very well.

MR PRINSLOO: One moment please, Chairperson. Mr Mncwango, the applicant as you have heard previously, denies that he wrote any letter. Do you hear that?

MR MNCWANGO: Well yes I hear as you are putting it to me.

MR PRINSLOO: And the applicant says that the visit that you and others paid to him at his house, was regarding his trial, his defence, if he was satisfied with his defence.

MR MNCWANGO: That is not true. We were not there about his defence, we had gone there about this letter, this is what we were inquiring. He knows very well that he wrote a letter, he wanted R20 000, that he knows very well.

MR PRINSLOO: Furthermore Mr Mncwango, the applicant denies that he went to the offices of the IFP in Pongola as you have described it.

MR MNCWANGO: But he knows that. I heard him whispering that to you, but I know he went there because that was the first time I had an encounter with him, or rather I met him.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mncwango, where is the letter?

MR MNCWANGO: Sanda kept the letter, but I don't know the whereabouts of the letter now because I - remember, you should recall, I excused myself from the discussion and I went outside. As to who kept the letter now, or it was left to him, I don't know because I'd already left the discussion to go and sit outside far away. Shortly, I don't know the whereabouts or where the letter ended up.

MR PRINSLOO: And Sir, the letter was addressed to you as secretary of the IFP according to your version.

MR MNCWANGO: I never said that.

MR PRINSLOO: And you leave it in the possession of Nlangamandla.

MR MNCWANGO: No, what you are saying now, I never said that. I never said that the letter was directed to me as the secretary, now you're putting words in my mouth. I said Sanda had the letter and brought it to me and said: "This is the letter and it's addressing this" and no you see, you're putting words in my mouth now.

MR PRINSLOO: To whom was the letter addressed?

MR MNCWANGO: I don't remember.

MR PRINSLOO: You can't remember.

MR MNCWANGO: Even the wording of the letter, I just remember the content. As to what sentence was saying what and what paragraph was referring to what, I don't recall. Even the address itself on top, I have no recollection of that, but it was a letter I just read once when it got to me and I handed it back to him and I don't have any clear recollection, but maybe some others may have a clear recollection to this effect, but I don't remember even who the letter was addressed to. As for the content, I remember it very well, that it requested the IFP members of Pongola to enlist help to him.

MR PRINSLOO: Assist him with what?

MR MNCWANGO: He wanted R20 000.

MR PRINSLOO: R20 000 for what?

MR MNCWANGO: I said he wanted the R20 000 to cover the court expenses, that's what he had said in the letter.

MR PRINSLOO: And he wanted money from the IFP?

MR MNCWANGO: Well I don't know if the Commission will intervene here. I think now we are doing a merry-go-round. You know we are going around in circles.

MR PRINSLOO: You're saying in the contents of the letter, the man requested R20 000. The question is simple, did he ask R20 000 from the IFP?

MR MNCWANGO: You see the one problem I have with you, you feed words in my mouth. Now you're turning around and saying, Mr Prinsloo, you say I said I did not know what was written in the letter. I did not say that, I even said I remember the content of the letter. As to who it was addressed to, that I have no clear recollection of. I did not pay much attention to those things because one thing that preoccupied my mind after I had read the letter was the content which was to the effect that the constituency of Pongola enlist help to him. That was one thing that I kept in the back of my mind. As to what line was saying, what paragraph was saying, that I said and reiterated the fact to you that I don't quite remember.

MR PRINSLOO: After all this long questions, the answer was that he wanted R20 000 from the IFP?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes. The IFP constituency at Pongola.

MR PRINSLOO: But you did not keep the letter, you leave the letter. You are given instruction to investigate and you just let go of the proof, the letter, is that what you are saying?

MR MNCWANGO: Well take it that way, if you so wish, but what I remember is that the letter was not directed to me, because if it was directed to me, it would have come or it would have been received by me directly, but I was given the letter already outside of the envelope, I was given ...

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

MR BIZOS: I will not be long, but there are just certain matters that I want to clarify. We know that the deceased was killed on the 22nd of November 1993. Now what was your position politically in November 1993? You were ideologically, even though not organisationally committed to the PAC?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, that is so.

MR BIZOS: And whatever may have happened ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR BIZOS: I have assistance. I want to deal with your state of mind at the time of the killing and not what may have happened later, which was your democratic right to do to change an organisation. At the time of the murder, were you still committed to the ideology of the Pan Africanist Congress?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR BIZOS: And however friendly or unfriendly people may have been across the political lines in Pongola, ideologically the IFP and the PAC were poles apart. The PAC actually accused the IFP of being supporters of apartheid.

MR MNCWANGO: No. As far as I know that is not so.

MR BIZOS: Were there no ideological differences between the PAC and the IFP at the time that you were committed ideologically to the PAC?

MR MNCWANGO: There were differences, yes.

MR BIZOS: There were differences.

MR MNCWANGO: There were differences, of course.

MR BIZOS: Yes. And some of them were fundamental and strongly felt differences.

MR MNCWANGO: I think the differences were - had a lot to do with the strategies to achieve total freedom or liberation.

MR BIZOS: Well, yes.

MR MNCWANGO: They were not that fundamental, they were just ...

MR BIZOS: Strategic.

MR MNCWANGO: Strategic, yes.

MR BIZOS: I'll accept that. And had you at the time of the killing given out that you were dissatisfied with your ideological political home and that you were thinking of changing to the IFP at the time of the killing?

MR MNCWANGO: Who was I saying that to? I do not quite understand the question.

MR BIZOS: Was there any perception on members of the IFP in Pongola at the time of the killing that you were unhappy in the PAC camp and you intended joining the IFP? Was there any such a - did you do anything which would have given the IFP people that idea in November 93?

MR MNCWANGO: Would you please bear with me, Mister? I just want to say this, so that you can follow me as I explain. You see at the time at Pongola and in particular Motchani township, many different people were such that the same parties that they sympathised with, but there was not open political activity. A political meeting in Pongola, for example, I went back to Pongola in 1989, but a huge political rally or meeting, the kind of meeting or rally that would be attended at a hall or school, we never had anything of such magnitude.

MR BIZOS: Perhaps I should put the question to you directly, so that we can get down to it. The evidence of the applicant is that you, in a Wimpy Bar, you being a member of the PAC together with members of the IFP, to which you did not belong, conspired together to kill the ANC leader who was your friend and with whom you apparently didn't have any quarrel.

MR MNCWANGO: That is the problem here. Let me start off by saying that it never ever occurred that we went to Wimpy for meals. You know, it is clear from his evidence that he is not from around Pongola and therefore he had no idea as to what was happening in Pongola. He came through his own ways and means and caused a lot of chaos. He wants to see himself out of jail through what he is saying now. He did not even know what he was doing. First of all ...with IFP members to murder an ANC leader, that never could have happened. This is something that he's just making up.

MR BIZOS: Although there was a war of words between members of the PAC and the ANC, was there at that stage or indeed in exile or, except I understand, certain pockets in the Eastern Cape, was there generally any violence between ANC and PAC members?

MR MNCWANGO: Only in a few cases, yes such a thing did happen, but it was not common place, not as was the case in KwaZulu Natal and other areas. Yes, it did happen, but at a lower scale.

MR BIZOS: Now you told us that there were taxi associations between whom no love was lost.

MR MNCWANGO: I was in fact referring specifically to Sanda Nlangamandla and myself.

MR BIZOS: Were you in different camps?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR BIZOS: Different associations?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR BIZOS: And this hostility between members of the different associations, was that at that time quite sharp?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, there were quite big differences which even now still exist because the two camps are still separate, but the negotiations still continue in an effort to merge the two taxi associations, but it's an uphill battle as a result of the differences. Fortunately people of Pongola are by nature not violent, that is if the people of Pongola were a violent people.

MR BIZOS: Would you have entered into any conspiracy with Sanda at that time, having regard to the relationship between these two associations?

MR MNCWANGO: I don't think something like that would have happened and even at any stage, conspiring to murder a person is not my way of doing things.

MR BIZOS: We accept that as a basic premise, but merely want to get some other facts in order to buttress up what you say happened or may have happened. Now you also told the Committee that the deceased was not involved in taxi matters. He didn't involve himself.

MR MNCWANGO: Let me just explain here. In so far as the taxi boycott is concerned, he was quite distant really. He distanced himself. I met him and he told me so because there was no wisdom in the boycott.

MR BIZOS: Well, members of the family and I think one of the persons has already given evidence, have suggested that he was not personally involved in organising the boycott, but among the people, among the people in Pongola and elsewhere, in the eyes of at least some taxi drivers, the real trouble makers and the real experts of boycotts were the ANC people traditionally, the ...(indistinct)

MR MNCWANGO: I can't confirm that.

MR BIZOS: Yes, okay. And were there tremendous losses to your association and to the competing association at the time as a result of the boycott?

MR MNCWANGO: Let me explain it as follows. If it were tremendous losses or not, after maybe I've sketched the scenario during those days there, what was happening at the time is that these taxi boycotts did not last a long time and the truth of the matter is that certain people were not using taxis in the morning on their way to work but the taxis operated as normal during the day. That is the truth, such that there was only a small click of people who barricaded the road, stopping the taxis. I was able, for example, to identify the people who stopped and stoned my taxi and I dealt with them in ...(indistinct). I had to assault the boys. Secondly, the losses were not so tremendous because the taxi routes were operating as usual. Only one road, a 5 kilometre long road, that was not functioning as usual and it was operating the whole day as usual and you'd only experience problems around 5 when people came back from work. In other words, Chairperson, I am trying to say that I did not feel any losses as such because I was operating, my taxis were going to Vryheid Nongoma, Piet Retief, all over, freely. It was only this small area of 5 kilometre land that was problematic and that too did not last very long, not even two weeks. If it lasted for a week that was very long.

MR BIZOS: But we are told that the increases were cancelled. The proposed increases that led to the boycott were cancelled.

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, that is true, Honourable Committee. The increase was 30c if I'm not mistaken and that was withdrawn. The boycott started. I would like to mention this to be of assistance to the Committee, I'm remembering now. The boycott started, I think it could have been Thursday if not Wednesday, so that on the weekend of that week, there was a meeting, even though I did not attend the meeting. It was agreed at the meeting that the 30c increment should be withdrawn so that the following Monday morning it was business as usual for the taxi business. I'm sorry for taking your time.

MR BIZOS: I merely wanted to know whether it was withdrawn. Now, how kindly or unkindly did some of the taxi drivers, particularly those that had the Pongola short route business, take this activity of the members of the community?

MR MNCWANGO: I would not say. That is quite a difficult question to answer.

MR BIZOS: Well thank you, we'll draw the inference. We'll draw the inference, you don't have to take it further. Now you have told us, or you were told by Mr Prinsloo that the applicant was a member of the IFP and you accepted it.

MR MNCWANGO: Just hold it there. I do not quite understand. Would you please repeat what you're saying Mr Prinsloo told me.

MR BIZOS: Mr Prinsloo said that the applicant was a member of the IFP.

MR MNCWANGO: Which I did not dispute, because maybe he and the applicant knows.

MR BIZOS: Thank you. Yes, I see we get on well. What I - the question really is, do you of your own knowledge, know whether or not he was a member of the IFP at any time and where?

MR MNCWANGO: I only - I heard from him that he was a member of the IFP, that was on the day that I saw him for the first time.

MR BIZOS: Thank you. Now in relation to the meeting that you and the others went to his residence, there is something that I find puzzling which you can perhaps clarify. You see Mr van der Walt - could you identify yourself please Mr van der Walt? That gentleman there.

MR MNCWANGO: Yes.

MR BIZOS: During the course of the proceedings, whilst the applicant was giving evidence, put certain questions and certain facts as to what happened at that meeting and I'm going to read it to you and ask you for your comment. Page 202. He says, the second paragraph:

Let me make that clear. Oh, you have the record there. Mr van der Walt speaking to the applicant and this is what he says the Khumalo brothers are going to say and whilst we're about it, we can deal with both passages together. If you go to the last time Mr van der Walt's name appears, just after Adv de Jager said something but didn't switch on the microphone, like me, but just under that, you've got that?

... now it's again Mr van der Walt speaking to the applicant -

Now was this - were these two statements made at the time that you visited the applicant?

MR MNCWANGO: What I could say is that something that borders around what is on here, although I cannot say word for word this is what was said.

MR BIZOS: What you say is that although the precise words may not be in the way in which Mr van der Walt put it, the effect of what he said is what is recorded here?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, I would concur with much of what's written here, even though Chairperson I'm not in the position to confirm all of the contents here because I am the one who spoke to Mavuso first. We couldn't come to an understanding and then I left them, so they met me on the way back because here you see it was Mr van der Walt talking about the instructions that he received from Sam and Vele Khumalo. These are the people whom I left behind as they were talking to the applicant, so that this explains the situation here because when I asked Mavuso, Velaphi was present, Sam Khumalo was present. If it was easy, he could have easily pointed out the people, instead he did not do that, he became evasive.

MR BIZOS: Now you've heard his evidence that he actually said that it wasn't really necessary to discuss who had killed the deceased because you, the people that had gone there, had instructed him. Do you want to comment on that, very briefly please.

MR MNCWANGO: Could you repeat that please Mr Bizos?

MR BIZOS: Yes. The applicant said that there was no discussion about his guilt or innocence or who instructed him because you and the others there were the people who instructed him, therefore it was not necessary to have such a discussion.

MR MNCWANGO: Through his teeth he is lying. He is lying and he knows he's lying.

MR BIZOS: Once is enough, okay. I know that you feel angry and I don't blame you but you know we must make progress.

MR MNCWANGO: Please bear with me Mr Bizos, I'd like to point this out. Look, I'm an adult. What this man did to me as well as the Mcetywa family, that is something very bad. You know, I've been carrying this for many years. He set me against the children of a person who was my friend and they now honestly believe that I am responsible for the death of their father.

MR BIZOS: There is one other aspect of the applicant's evidence that I want you to deal with because he says that it was not necessary to discuss whether he did it or on whose instructions, but, he says, at page 212 of the record, Mr Chairman:

It's in the middle of the page, just below the middle of the page. Now was there any discussion in which you took part or in your presence that you were there in order to discuss the way in which you could defeat justice by helping him to get away?

MR MNCWANGO: In my presence, no we never - or should I say that was never discussed in my presence.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Does this refer to a physical escape or escape from "the mess that I'm in"?

MR BIZOS: It's ambiguous, no it's ambiguous, Mr Chairman, but there was no discussion as to any plans not to let him stand trial. I agree that it may be a figurative way of ...But you say that there was no discussion as to ...?

MR MNCWANGO: In my presence, no Sir.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Is there anything else? Thank you Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Bizos. Mr van der Heyde?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, I don't have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no questions for this witness Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr van der Walt.

MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha.

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, also no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shubane.

MR SHUBANE: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi.

MR PADI: I have no questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt.

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Walt. Anything else Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Before the funeral at the night vigil, do you know whether there was any shooting at the house of the deceased?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, that happened.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were people injured there?

MR MNCWANGO: Yes, many of them.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Had you had any idea of - had you seen anything about this shooting, who carried out the shooting?

MR MNCWANGO: No. This happened in the evening. The people came in the dark and these people were in a church service. Some of them were praying and they were shot in that state.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You've seen the march to the magistrates court of supporters of the applicant, IFP supporters marching to the magistrates court in Pongola.

MR MNCWANGO: No, Sir, I did not see a march in the sense of a march. In fact I was driving from the abattoirs, just on the other side of the magistrates court. I saw just people streaming to the court but I cannot really say whether they were all IFP or some of them were ANC or whatever, but I did notice IFP regalia among those people, and I also noticed ANC regalia amongst those people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga, who's next?

MS MTANGA: The next witness is Philemon Mtungwa, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will he come forward?

PHILEMON MTUNGWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Mtungwa will you tell the Committee what was your occupation in 1993?

MR MTUNGWA: I was working at Bison Board in 1993.

MS MTANGA: When did you start working there?

MR MTUNGWA: In 1989.

MS MTANGA: What was your occupation exactly?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, I was a driver.

MS MTANGA: What is your current occupation?

MR MTUNGWA: I'm unemployed now.

MS MTANGA: Were you politically affiliated in 1993?

MR MTUNGWA: No, not at all.

MS MTANGA: Are you now politically affiliated?

MR MTUNGWA: Not even now.

MS MTANGA: Do you know the applicant?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, I know him from Bison Board, he was a security man at the gate.

MS MTANGA: How well do you know the applicant, Mr Mtungwa?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, I know him as a security man and we'll go past him as a security man, in and out. I know him, based on that.

MS MTANGA: Would you say you were friends or you knew him merely as a colleague?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, I knew him as a colleague.

MS MTANGA: Did you and the applicant have any relationship outside work?

MR MTUNGWA: No.

MS MTANGA: The applicant has given evidence that in 1993, some time in November, he was taken by you to meet your brother Amos Mtungwa at Ejilajuba at Mr Amos Mtungwa's house. Do you recall that?

MR MTUNGWA: No, that never happened.

MS MTANGA: Do you deny that you ever met the applicant at Ejilajuba at Amos' house?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, I dispute that.

MS MTANGA: The applicant further gave evidence that you and Amos Mtungwa, drove on the same day to Pongola where you met at Wimpy restaurant, together with ...

MR MTUNGWA: No, that did not happen like that.

MS MTANGA: You have never had a meeting with Amos Mtungwa, the applicant?

MR MTUNGWA: No, that did not happen.

MR MTUNGWA: Mr Mtungwa, do you know Mr Mcetywa, ...(indistinct) of Pongola?

MR MTUNGWA: No, I don't know him.

MS MTANGA: You have never heard of - have you ever heard of Mr Mcetywa?

MR MTUNGWA: Well I'd heard after this man was arrested, I mean the applicant.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Amos Mtungwa?

MR MTUNGWA: He is my brother, therefore I know him.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Sam Khumalo from Pongola?

MR MTUNGWA: No, I don't know him.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Velaphi Khumalo?

MR MTUNGWA: Him as well, you see many people of Pongola I don't know.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Malebele Buthelezi?

MR MTUNGWA: I don't know that person as well except to say yesterday Kalusa, the police, phoned in the morning and said I have to appear and present myself here and he had said he would arrange transport and yesterday in the morning he phoned, Kalusa that is, and told me that a man from Pongola by the name of Mncwango will give me a call and we'll travel together coming this side and he said he will give me a call and give me all the details pertaining to the description of his car and so on and indeed Kalusa phoned and I asked him as to which car he'll be driving. He said he'll be driving a red Isuzu and he'll be parked at the Toyota garage and I will be there, but we did not know each other you see. In that way I asked what time he'll be there. He said he'll be there around three. At half past two I left my house so I could make it in time. Half past two I left, at 20 to three I was there until 4 o'clock. At quarter past 4 I decided to go to the police station to report that I cannot locate the person who is supposed to meet me. All that was created by the fact that we did not know each other. I did not know them Buthelezi and ...(indistinct)

MS MTANGA: Do you know the court interpreter, Jabulani Kunene who is also ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) in a meeting with him?

MR MTUNGWA: I don't know him as well, but I heard yesterday about him that he is Kunene, although the name was not furnished to me.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mtungwa, the applicant has implicated you in the conspiracy to kill Mr Mike Mcetywa. If you say you didn't know him that much and you were not part of this conspiracy, why do you think the applicant would have implicated you or mentioned your name?

MR MTUNGWA: Well I don't know. That is really up to him. I cannot explain why. My brother is the one who is well-known, but you do find sometimes the situation where people are aware and know you and you don't know them.

MS MTANGA: At the last hearing and I understand you were not present, there was a mention that you gave evidence on behalf of the applicant at his bail application trial. Do you recall that?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, I do recall that.

MS MTANGA: What evidence did you give on behalf of the applicant?

MR MTUNGWA: There was no evidence that I tendered. As a Christian I was going to Pongola and there's so many people who were there and asked me as a neutral person who is not either on the one side or the other and it was his attorney, I think, who talked to me regarding the bail, if it were to be given to him, how safe will he be outside in the community.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mtungwa, who approached you to give evidence on behalf of the applicant?

MR MTUNGWA: The attorney there came, there were so many people who were there and they called for a person who is neutral who could be able to give a word or two but then I told them that the bus will take them from the hostel to the firm and from the firm to the hostel, other than that I have no knowledge and I ended right there.

MS MTANGA: Where did his lawyer approach you?

MR MTUNGWA: I was already in Pongola or whether I found them there I don't remember now, but there were so many people and the people asked me.

MS MTANGA: Where in Pongola?

MR MTUNGWA: There in town.

MS MTANGA: Is that your evidence, that you came across Mr Mavuso and his lawyer just in town?

MR MTUNGWA: No, not Mavuso, but people who had said, those were the people who suggested that a person who is neutral will be ideal to give evidence and the only way I responded back to them was to say the bus would take them from the hostel to the firm gate and from the firm gate back to the hostel.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mtungwa in your evidence you said you were approached by Mr Mavuso's lawyer, that's in your response you mentioned people who met you in town. Who are you referring to when you say people, who had thought you would be neutral?

MR MTUNGWA: I'm saying people called me and said I'm not biased and I'm neutral and they took me to Mavuso's attorney and he asked if I knew Mavuso, then I said yes and he said the people want - are requesting a bail for him and he was asking how safe he'll be if he's outside and I told him that I really don't know much except to say the bus would taken them from this point to the next and from the other back to the ...

MS MTANGA: Who are these people who were looking for someone who is neutral?

MR MTUNGWA: There were many people there. Others I knew them to be IFP members. You see I had no problem with talking to just about anybody who was coming from any affiliation or political party, so there were both IFP and ANC who were there.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mtungwa since you only knew Mr Mavuso as a colleague, what - can you just tell the Committee what was the content of your evidence that you gave on his behalf in his bail application?

MR MTUNGWA: There was nothing I said in his bail application.

MS MTANGA: Were you called in as a witness for Mr Mavuso?

MR MTUNGWA: The attorney requested that I should go there, but I did not - no oath was administered, I only said the busses will take them from the hostel to the gate and from the gate to the hostel. As to his safety, I don't know.

MS MTANGA: Are you saying you never actually testified in court, you were just approached by the lawyer?

MR MTUNGWA: No oath was administered to me and they asked me to explain about his safety because they wanted a person who is neutral, who was not party to any of the two groups who were in conflict, that was it.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: As far as this last question is concerned, did you testify in court?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, I was not sworn in, but I did not have any evidence.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I realise you say you were not sworn in. Did you speak in court? Did you stand at the counter or the witness box and did you address the magistrate?

MR MTUNGWA: No, they did not bring me forward. They said I could say whatever I had to say where I was seated and I stood up to say this is how the transport goes, it moves from here to there and there to there, as to his safety, I'm not sure, I don't know much.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you tell them in court while the magistrate was sitting on the bench?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, they were all there. They only asked me that question and I answered strictly to that end. From there they did not ask me any further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you repeat the answer?

INTERPRETER: It will be ideal if the witness repeats then I will repeat as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You were asked what happened in court. Can you just explain that again?

MR MTUNGWA: They said I should explain the distance from the hostel and also the safety, how safe it was for him to be out there and I told them that the transport will leave from the hostel to the gate of the firm and from the firm back to the hostel and I did not know how far safe he will be and that was the end. They never asked me any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we can clarify that as we go along. Yes, I intend to adjourn at this stage. We are going to adjourn slightly earlier this afternoon. In fact we will be adjourning at 3.30 so I'm going to call upon you to give your co-operation for us to start promptly after lunch. We will now adjourn and we will reconvene at 2 o'clock.

PHILEMON MTUNGWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Mtanga, you've concluded your examination, have you?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson I have.

CHAIRPERSON: You have? Good. Mr Prinsloo.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mtungwa, you live in the hostel in Piet Retief is that correct, or you used to live there, is that correct?

MR MTUNGWA: No I am not residing there and I never resided there.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you at no stage live in the hostel in Piet Retief?

MR MTUNGWA: No, I've never been resident at the hostel in Piet Retief.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Buthelezi?

MR MTUNGWA: I know him working at Bison Board.

MR PRINSLOO: And you know him as the person who was the Chairperson in the hostel of the IFP?

MR MTUNGWA: I would not know because I was not a frequent visitor to the hostel.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know Mr Gumbe who was also and organiser of the IFP in that hostel?

MR MTUNGWA: I don't know whether he was an organiser or not, I know him from work. They were at the gate together with Mavuso where they were security guards. I don't know what position he held.

MR PRINSLOO: And your brother, Amos Mtungwa, did you hear his evidence?

MR MTUNGWA: Amos is my brother. He's a member of the Legislature in the KwaZulu Natal Government and he is also chief of our tribe back at home.

MR PRINSLOO: Have you heard the evidence which he had given here before this Committee?

MR MTUNGWA: I've never met him. No, I've not heard that evidence.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you here at the hearing in July of last year?

MR MTUNGWA: No, I'm only here for the first time today.

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant, you worked with him for quite some time, is that correct?

MR MTUNGWA: He was working at Bison Board together with me, but we were in different departments.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know him well at work, is that correct?

MR MTUNGWA: No, we used to walk past them at the gate, they as securities. We used to walk past them in and out of the hostel. We were not close really.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you speak to him at work?

MR MTUNGWA: No, there was no time for a chat because we were in two separate departments that were distant from each other and we were working in shifts. I would see him maybe once a week at the gate.

MR PRINSLOO: I want some clarity from you. Is it your evidence that you did not speak to him at all at work or did you speak to him from time to time? It's a simple question.

MR MTUNGWA: No, we never had chats because we were not staying together and we were working at different departments.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it your evidence that you just knew him from seeing him?

MR MTUNGWA: Exactly. Because we used to walk past them at the gate and we used to walk past them leaving the premises. They would require our security cards, etc, etc, they were just doing their jobs as securities at the gates so that there was no time for me to engage in a chat with him.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know that he was a member of the IFP?

MR MTUNGWA: I used to see them on my way perhaps to work, or maybe I would see them in IFP T-shirts but I really did not know his, or the length of his commitment to the IFP. We used to see them on our way passing the hostel, but really I cannot testify to his commitment to the IFP.

MR PRINSLOO: And your brother?

CHAIRPERSON: Have you missed the answer? Yes, in fact I haven't made a verbatim note of that. Yes, he was responding to the question about the possible IFP membership of the applicant and then he says that he saw the applicant, apparently in a group or whatever, I gather, from what he had said, dressed up in IFP T-shirts but he doesn't know the extent of the commitment of the applicant to the IFP. Yes, sorry Mr Prinsloo.

ADV GCABASHE: In fact Mr Prinsloo, it would help if you could get clarity on that for us, whether it was the applicant he saw or just the group. That's actually not clear from his answer.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mtungwa, did you see the applicant wearing and IFP T-shirt?

MR MTUNGWA: People such as Mavuso and others who were working for Bison Board staying at the hostel, these are people that we would see on our way passing that area because the bus would come and stop at the gate where people would get off. We would easily identify familiar faces among the groups, but then I cannot say how much committed they were to the organisation to which they seemed to belong, or to which they belonged. One cannot say by merely looking at a person how much committed the person is to the organisation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: The question was whether you saw him with an IFP T-shirt.

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, they used to wear those IFP T-shirts. I don't know whether they were just simply wearing the IFP T-shirts out of like for wearing such T-shirts or what. I really cannot say whether they wore the T-shirts because of an indication of their commitment or what. You know they used to purchase these T-shirts.

ADV GCABASHE: Unless you're going to pursue it, we just need clarity. Mr Mtungwa, you talk of they in the plural, we specifically want to know about Mr Mavuso, separate him from the others, him in particular. Please help us with that.

MR MTUNGWA: Where should I explain? Would you please repeat your question, I do not understand.

ADV GCABASHE: It's simply for you to be able to tell us that Mr Mavuso himself, who is sitting here, you have seen in an IFP T-shirt on occasion. Forget about the other people he may have been with.

MR MTUNGWA: I used to see him wearing these IFP T-shirts. Sometimes these people would wear IFP T-shirts, ANC T-shirts on their way to work and once they get to work they would put on their work uniform. Really I cannot expand on this.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mtungwa did you see the applicant as a person who at least sympathised or supported the IFP?

MR MTUNGWA: I would not say that because I was not concentrating on that. My major concern was concentrating on preaching the gospel, spreading my commitment to Christianity, I wanted people to repent, that's all I was concerned about.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Mavuso was a person who was prominent. He was a security guard at the gate, did you say?

MR MTUNGWA: He was not alone. He was among several security guards at the gate. There were people who were watching over the firm, especially at the gate.

MR PRINSLOO: Now on the day when Mr Mcetywa was murdered, did you hear of it?

MR MTUNGWA: I don't know that day.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I beg your pardon, Mr Prinsloo. You must give some time, because your voices might cross over. You and the interpreter are speaking together.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mtungwa, it's difficult to see the man, Mr Mtungwa, the day when Mr Mavuso for the first time appeared in court in Pongola with regard to the murder of Mr Mcetywa, did you go to Pongola?

MR MTUNGWA: I did not accompany them there. I was just walking on my own and I saw some different groups, some from Piet Retief etc and then they spoke to the lawyer requesting me to comment about Nkosinathi. Basically they wanted somebody who was neutral and I was brought to the lawyer and they requested that I give them information as to his safety in the event of him being granted bail.

MR PRINSLOO: Listen to the question please. The question is, did you from Piet Retief go to Pongola and attend the trial of the applicant? Yes, or no?

MR MTUNGWA: No, I did not.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you do in Pongola that day when the hearing took place?

MR MTUNGWA: I am originally from the chieftaincy of Mdumwa in Pongola. Highlandsdale is nearer to Pongola and each time I get there, I would go to town, come back and then go to Piet Retief, where I have my own home.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it a working day?

MR MTUNGWA: I work shifts, therefore I cannot say how the situation exactly was on that day, but I recall that I used to go home on my off duties. I would go to other places to preach. I would visit my mother at home. In the event of my mother not having food, I would not go to Piet Retief, I would go to Pongola, buy food and then go back home.

MR PRINSLOO: Then you only walked around in Pongola that day? Yes, or no?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And who approached you in Pongola on the street to give evidence in this matter?

MR MTUNGWA: It was the youth that was gathering there, some of whom were wearing IFP T-shirts and some of them in their private clothes. They came to me to say they wanted my assistance. They wanted somebody who was not involved in politics.

MR PRINSLOO: Were these people that you did not know?

MR MTUNGWA: They were people that I knew because most of the time I have dealings with the youth in church etc, even though I cannot give you their names, because I don't know their names, but these are people that I used to know.

MR PRINSLOO: What did this person then say to you?

MR MTUNGWA: They requested me, they said the legal representative wanted somebody who is neutral to come and assist them in answering the question of the safety of the person appearing before court.

MR PRINSLOO: How would those people have known what the attorney wanted to do and can you tell the Committee?

MR MTUNGWA: They had discussed this among themselves as well as the legal representative.

MR PRINSLOO: Was the legal representative present with the youth walking around there, this attorney?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, I would say that because these are the people who requested me. I went to them and they said to me: "Listen, we are not accusing you of anything, we just want you to give us some indication as to the safety of the person who is applying for bail." I said: "Look, I cannot explain much about that, I only know that the bus traverses this route to the hostel, etc."

MR PRINSLOO: The question is: Were you in the street? Please tell the Committee where were you when the youth approached you.

MR MTUNGWA: I was in town at Pongola. I had gone there to do some shopping for my mother.

MR PRINSLOO: And where exactly were you? Please tell the Committee.

MR MTUNGWA: I was going to, just about to enter ...(indistinct) Supermarket.

MR PRINSLOO: ...(not translated) (Transcriber's translation -How far is that from the court, this Supermarket?)

MR MTUNGWA: I would say from the Supermarket, they requested me to go to the legal representative's offices, that's where they spoke to me and then we went out and I cannot say exactly how long the distance was from the offices.

MR PRINSLOO: And these youths met you in the street and took you to the attorney's offices, is that what you are saying?

MR MTUNGWA: They requested me then and there, there were many of these people gathering there. They said, Mtungwa, please help us out here. They said: "Please talk to this legal representative" and the legal representative explained to me that they wanted to apply for bail for some person and they wanted to verify the safety of that person.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mtungwa, did this youth take you to the attorney's office? That is the question. Please answer the question.

MR MTUNGWA: They were close to the offices of the legal representative. They were milling around in the street next to the offices.

MR PRINSLOO: Will you please answer the question? I will ask you one more time. Did that youth take you to the attorney's office?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean? Did they take him right into the office?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, Chairperson, it is improbable that the man is met in the street and then a youth who has nothing to do with this case, that is why I ask this question, how does he end up with the attorney? He doesn't want to answer it.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not want you to address me, I would just like to know what is the detail that you require. Would you like to hear whether he was physically in the office? I would just like to know what do you want, whether he was inside or not?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mtungwa, after you came across these youths in the street, did they actually take you into the offices of the attorney, out of the street, into the offices, or what happened?

MR MTUNGWA: As I have explained, they were at the door because they were just opposite where I was. They requested that I talk to the legal representative and they explained to me that they wanted a particular kind of a person and they directed this request at me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you actually physically go into the office of the lawyer, of the attorney?

MR MTUNGWA: I only went to the door of the office.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. Can I just ask you, interpreter, can you just re-interpret what the witness ...? Can you just please ...?

INTERPRETER: The witness met with the group of people at the door of the offices of the legal representative and he never went inside, according to his testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mtungwa, did you speak to the lawyer, or the attorney? Did you speak to that attorney?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, he did speak to me, the attorney that is.

CHAIRPERSON: Whereabouts did he speak to you or she speak to you?

MR MTUNGWA: I was right at the - he was at the door and asked - and the people said they wanted a person who was not part of the organisation. He was standing just about there and because I respect the attorney so much, I had to respond to the questions especially as a person who worked for the State, the Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prinsloo.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust that helps a bit.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mtungwa this youth you are referring to, or the youths, how did they know that you knew Mr Mavuso and that you could be able to give information with regard to his place of employment and his safety, how did they know that?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, I did not ask them all of those questions, but they requested me as a person who preaches the gospel all around the area. I did not ask any questions of them.

MR PRINSLOO: Sir, in all respect, the gospel that you preach, what does this have to do with the fact that you know what the circumstances of employment of Mr Mavuso was and of the safety of the person at the place of employment? How would those people have known that? Please tell the Committee.

MR MTUNGWA: Can you please repeat that question?

MR PRINSLOO: Would you please explain to the Committee how those youths would have know that you worked with Mr Mavuso and that you would be able to give evidence with regard to his safety if he was released and what his circumstances at his workplace would be? How would they have known that? Please tell the Committee.

MR MTUNGWA: I did not ask them and I really don't believe that they had any impression about me knowing anything about Mr Mavuso. I was only walking along the street and they asked me.

MR PRINSLOO: They asked you to do what and to say what?

MR MTUNGWA: As I said earlier on, that exactly that, they asked me because they believed I was neutral enough to appear and say how safe Mr Mavuso would be. There's nothing else further than that.

MR PRINSLOO: Sir, I will grant you another opportunity and I will argue that it is improbable that any person would be approached in the street and they do not know where he works and it was about the safety of Mr Mavuso and the youths there would approach you to come and render such evidence. Can you explain that?

MR MTUNGWA: You see, many people in Piet Retief, Pongola and Ermelo know me very well especially the Christian because I go around preaching the gospel and we do efforts there and there, so I'm very well-known to the community of Pongola, Piet Retief and Ermelo, but I'm referring to Christians.

JUDGE DE JAGER: These youths, did they live in Piet Retief in that vicinity or did they live in Pongola, or where did they live, these people who approached you?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, I don't know others in that group and others I could tell that that was the youth of Piet Retief, those were the ones who were insisting that I should go and meet with the attorney. Most of them appeared to have known me and many people, it's a fact, know me in the area.

MR PRINSLOO: How would you be able to testify with regard to the safety of Mr Mavuso if you only knew him by sight?

MR MTUNGWA: I did explain that I don't know or I can't testify to his safety, but the bus, the route of the bus goes this way, from the hostel to the firm gate and from the gate back to the hostel. That's what I testified to.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it asked of you whether you knew the applicant? Did this attorney ask you?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, he said there was one person who had just been arrested from Piet Retief by the name of Nkosinathi Mavuso. I did respond to the effect that I knew him from work and they explained the details of his arrest and they also went on to say they would rather have me to come and testify to the effect that how safe will he be once he's been granted bail.

MR PRINSLOO: Which attorney spoke to you? Please give his name to the Honourable Committee.

MR MTUNGWA: Although I may not remember his name, or don't know his name, but I think it's Smit. I think he is Smit because that was my first and last encounter or seeing him.

MR PRINSLOO: Did he speak Afrikaans or English?

MR MTUNGWA: Afrikaans.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you understand Afrikaans?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, I understand there and there.

MR PRINSLOO: He then spoke to you right there in his office, or was it in court before you gave evidence that he spoke to you? Could you explain to the Committee?

MR MTUNGWA: He instructed me to go with, because they had such a problem. Indeed I went with them and when we got there, he asked me to explain. He further went on to say I'm the person who worked at Bison Board and I'll be in a position to explain the transport and the routing and testify to Mr Mavuso's safety and I went on to explain about the bus route, not about the safety of Mr Mavuso.

MR PRINSLOO: Before you entered the court room and gave evidence, did this attorney consult with you there at the court? Did he hear what you could say and what you couldn't say before he called you as a witness?

MR MTUNGWA: He - well they wanted a person who could explain how would he be going from work to home and home and work, but I explained about the bus route, as to where does it leave from and to where and when is it back, but as to his safety, I had no words to say.

MR PRINSLOO: Forget about the trip, I'm asking you whether the attorney consulted with you there at the court before you were called in to give evidence, this Mr Smit that you have referred to?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, he did not consult with me at the court.

MR PRINSLOO: Did he consult with you at any stage before you were called in by him as a witness? In other words, did you go to his office or did you consult in the entrance to his office?

MR MTUNGWA: Well, they requested me to help there only, there was nothing else further than that. They only requested me to say that much.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just ask you, Mr Mtungwa, they requested you. This request, Mr Prinsloo wants to know where did this request take place? Was it at the office, or was it at the court before you went inside court? That's all Mr Prinsloo wants to know, where you talked to the attorney.

MR MTUNGWA: That was at the door of his office when I was requested.

ADV GCABASHE: When you say they requested me, who are you talking to, who are you referring to or talking about?

MR MTUNGWA: I am referring to Smit, the one who requested me to go and help there.

ADV GCABASHE: That's the question Mr Prinsloo is posing to you. Is it clear now? And that where exactly were you when you were talking, where were you stationed, where were you when you were talking? That's the question he's posing to you.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR PRINSLOO: I will repeat. Mr Mtungwa, what did this attorney ask you? Please tell the Committee, there at the entrance to his office.

MR MTUNGWA: They wanted to know how safe it was for the person to be granted bail. I knew the bus route from the hostel to the workplace, that is what explanation I gave them.

MR PRINSLOO: He didn't ask you who you were?

MR MTUNGWA: They did ask me and I identified myself as Mtungwa and the youth had already identified me as a person who is neutral politically. That is the reason why they requested, that is why the legal representative requested me to explain how safe it was from the distance of the workplace to the hostel and that's the explanation that I gave them.

MR PRINSLOO: What did your neutrality have to do with your evidence because it was about the security of Mr Mavuso, according to your version, so what does neutrality and your neutrality specifically have to do with it?

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, we have spent about half an hour on this. Anyone who has any idea of the practice of our profession would know and wouldn't have to ask questions for about 10 or 15 minutes, or particularly the last question as to whether this person was a partisan to the issue or not and whether he could give impartial evidence, so the question, with respect, is just time-filling and of no assistance to the Committee. I know that it is very difficult, Mr Chairman, for you to intervene, with the greatest respect, it's even more difficult for me to try and intervene, but I would appeal to my learned friend to confine himself to questions which will allow us to make proper progress in the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Prinsloo, do you want to take that?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect Chairperson, I will argue at the end of the day that this man's version is improbable, that he was simply apprehended in the street, that this person had not asked him where he worked or what he did and that coincidentally he gave evidence regarding the security of the person and what does neutrality have to do with that. I would be very significant if this man said: "I know the person, I work with him, he is reliable", but that's not what he says at all and that is what I am trying to determine, unless I am not permitted to do so, but with respect, it has to do with the version of the applicant. He says that this is the man who knew him well, this is the man who took him and this person would say that he doesn't know the applicant and that is the line of questioning that I am assuming. I do not interfere with Mr Bizos' examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we do not wish to interrupt you either, but perhaps this issue of neutrality is something which the other parties may have determined. It didn't emanate from this witness so perhaps they knew why they wanted somebody neutral. MR PRINSLOO: Well then I will have to call in the attorney to determine whether or not they were looking for someone who was neutral.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether that would really be worth the time and the effort, Mr Prinsloo, with regard to that aspect.

MR PRINSLOO: But at the end of the day, it will be about whether or not the applicant can be believed or whether the witness can be believed. While the witness is presenting a version that he simply knew the man by sight and how far will that take us? How will I be able to examine his credibility if I'm not permitted to examine him?

CHAIRPERSON: No we do not wish to interrupt you with regard to that but what I would like to emphasise is the reason why they wanted someone who was neutral. Further examination of that might not be necessary. But your other arguments of course stand, those pertaining to credibility and probability and so forth.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson. Now Mr Mtungwa, at the court when you gave evidence, what did you testify about? Can you tell the Committee?

MR MTUNGWA: I indicated that I am not in the position to say how safe he was because the bus takes him from the gate where he resided to another gate at his workplace that is.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you testify that you knew Mr Mavuso?

MR MTUNGWA: They wanted to know if I knew him. I said: "I only know him from work at Bison Board" and they said: "Look we want to know how safe it is for him travelling the distance from where he stays to work" and I said: "Look, the bus picks these people up from the gate at the hostel to the workplace. I cannot say anything to his safety" and there's no any other question that was directed at me.

MR PRINSLOO: Thus you were not asked whether or not you were a member of the IFP, neither by the State Prosecutor or the attorney or the magistrate?

MR MTUNGWA: No, they did not want a person who was involved in politics.

MR PRINSLOO: They didn't even ask you whether or not he was a reliable person and what sort of work he did there.

MR MTUNGWA: No, there's only one question that they asked me, nor any other question.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see whether or not there were many IFP and ANC supporters there?

MR MTUNGWA: I did not take notice of that. There were many people in court and I just said what I had to say. They did not ask me many questions and I did not concern myself with anything else that was happening.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know that Mr Mavuso had been arrested in connection with the murder of Mr Mcetywa at that stage?

MR MTUNGWA: As I explained, I didn't know the reason for his arrest.

MR PRINSLOO: And before you testified, you didn't know for which reason Mr Mavuso was under arrest.

MR MTUNGWA: Would you please repeat?

MR PRINSLOO: Didn't you know for which reason, or why Mr Mavuso had been arrested?

MR MTUNGWA: The legal representative did explain that it is alleged that he murdered someone and I just explained the distance to them, that is from the hostel to the workplace.

MR PRINSLOO: While you were in Pongola on that day did you hear or know that Mr Mcetywa had been murdered?

MR MTUNGWA: I never used to discuss political things or matters with people. I never used to engage myself in political discussions except to say Jesus Christ is the Lord.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mtungwa, while you were in Pongola on that day, did you hear that Mr Mcetywa had been murdered? This has absolutely nothing to do with politics, the fact that somebody was murdered. Did you hear this or not?

MR MTUNGWA: I cannot comment about hearing things being said by people. I never used to know many people involved in politics.

MR PRINSLOO: It must have been clear to you there that the situation between the ANC and the IFP was quite explosive. There were policemen and soldiers who were standing guard there. Didn't you see this?

MR MTUNGWA: I cannot say. I am not involved in politics, I therefore cannot say or comment about them being angry or not, or if there's any tension between such political parties, really I cannot say.

MR PRINSLOO: Sir, on that day, did you bring clothing for Mr Mavuso from Piet Retief to the court?

MR MTUNGWA: No, I know nothing about that.

MR PRINSLOO: I put it to you that on that day you brought clothing for Mr Mavuso to the court, on the day of his appearance.

MR MTUNGWA: No. Where could I have obtained those clothes? He used to stay at the hostel and I used to reside in the township. These places are far apart.

MR PRINSLOO: According to the applicant on that day you brought him a pair of trousers, he has just told me in Zulu, he said ...(ethnic) which could mean blue or green, with stripes and a brown shirt. What is your commentary on that?

MR MTUNGWA: No, that is a mistake, I know nothing about that.

MR PRINSLOO: In November 1993 your brother Amos drove a white Cortina vehicle.

MR MTUNGWA: What is your response?

MR PRINSLOO: In 1993 at the time of Mr Mcetywa's death.

MR MTUNGWA: I cannot say because I was not residing with him. I was staying in Piet Retief. He would be in Ulundi or some other places, I cannot really say.

MR PRINSLOO: Didn't you see the vehicle that your brother was driving? Is that what you're trying to say?

MR MTUNGWA: I am referring to that particular day. I am not staying with him. I cannot say whether he left or he didn't. I was not there on that day.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Let us not restrict ourselves to that particular day. Did your brother Amos drive a white Cortina vehicle? Did he either own or use such a vehicle at any time during 1993?

MR MTUNGWA: I would not say uses cars regularly. I cannot say what car he was driving in which year and I would only meet him when I get home.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you ever see him drive a white Cortina vehicle?

MR MTUNGWA: I think he must or could have owned a white Cortina, even though I cannot say exactly which year it was. Yes, he used to drive vehicles of the colour white. Yes he used to drive different car.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you ever see him in a white Cortina motor car?

MR MTUNGWA: I am saying to you he is my brother, he used to use a white Cortina. Yes, he used to own a white Cortina. He had several cars. A Valiant, etc etc.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Mtungwa, you heard the evidence of the applicant. Well, let me put it like this. Did your legal representative inform you of the evidence which was given by the applicant?

MR MTUNGWA: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Therefore you do not know at all what the evidence of the applicant was, is that what you're trying to say?

MR MTUNGWA: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Therefore you were not informed at all regarding the nature of the evidence?

MR MTUNGWA: I know nothing.

MR PRINSLOO: The evidence is that you worked with him there at Bison Board in Piet Retief and that you were a member of the IFP. I will sketch it to you briefly. You were the liaison point between your brother Amos Mtungwa on behalf of the IFP.

ADV GCABASHE: I'm sorry Mr Prinsloo, can you give it to him in bits and pieces and get him to respond, otherwise he might give you one answer to a complex series of questions. So you've just given him three different statements. Let's just start again and let him answer to each one.

MR PRINSLOO: Let me put it as such Mr Mtungwa. The applicant Mr Mavuso's evidence is that you and he worked together at Bison Board. Do you agree with that?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, we were working for the same company but in different departments.

MR PRINSLOO: And furthermore that you were a member of the IFP at that stage. What do you say of that?

MR MTUNGWA: I've never been a member of the IFP. The IFP belongs to my family because my brother is in charge of the IFP. I am part of the IFP as a result of it belonging to my home.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you a member of the IFP?

MR MTUNGWA: The person who is in charge of the IFP is my brother. I was born within the IFP.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you a member of the IFP, Mr Mtungwa?

MR MTUNGWA: I am a follower of the IFP because you see a member is something else. As I am explaining, I don't know what's happening within a political organisation but the IFP is one organisation that is run by my brother. I am not within, o a Committee member of the IFP.

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant also testified that during a discussion with you, he told you that he was skilled and familiar in and with the use of firearms. What do you have to say about that?

MR MTUNGWA: I don't know anything about that.

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant regarded you as a person who was a liaison for the IFP for your brother who was at that stage quite highly placed within the ranks of the IFP. What do you say about that?

MR MTUNGWA: I just knew he was a member of the legislature and he was in charge of the region of Mlangenja and also that he is chief of that group. He is chief of the Mdumwa group or clan.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it true that you requested him to accompany you to your brother Amos Mtungwa at Ejilajuba?

MR MTUNGWA: No. No, that never happened.

MR PRINSLOO: And furthermore his evidence indicates that when you arrived there your brother Amos Mtungwa was in the bath. What do you say about that?

MR MTUNGWA: That is not correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And that he later came out and that you had a discussion and your brother was wearing khaki clothing. What do you say about that?

MR MTUNGWA: I know nothing about that. I never went home in the company of Mavuso. I only used to see him at the gate especially when it was his shift.

MR PRINSLOO: And while the discussion was held, an elderly person arrived there and your brother asked you and Mavuso to wait outside while he conversed with this elderly person. What do you say about that?

MR MTUNGWA: It is not true. I don't know anything about that.

MR PRINSLOO: And then there was a discussion regarding a person who was a problem for the IFP. I'm putting it to you very briefly, if you wish to deny this. What do you say? Do you deny or confirm this?

MR MTUNGWA: Will you please repeat the question?

MR PRINSLOO: It was said to you and Mr Mavuso by your brother, that there was a person who was posing a problem for the IFP and subsequently...

MR MTUNGWA: I know nothing about that.

MR PRINSLOO: And then your brother was accompanied by you and Mavuso in his vehicle to a nearby hospital and that you travelled in this white Cortina vehicle. What do you say about that?

MR MTUNGWA: No that is not true.

MR PRINSLOO: And then you went to Pongola to the Wimpy.

MR MTUNGWA: No, that is not correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And that in the Wimpy, in the presence of your brother and you and the other members of the IFP, there was a discussion regarding the murder of Mr Mcetywa.

MR MTUNGWA: Well that is not true.

MR PRINSLOO: And after that you drove and there is a statement before the Committee which was made by one Mr Kruschev Ndawene and he maintains that your brother Amos Mtungwa came to speak to him in Pongola and that there were two persons or occupants in the vehicle and I put it to you that the idea with the discussion was for the applicant to see how Mr Kruschev looked in order to murder him as well. You were seated in the back of the vehicle and the applicant was seated in front. What do you say about that?

MR MTUNGWA: Well that is a mistake, even a lie. A blue lie. I have never been with Mavuso or in a trip with Mavuso. Each time I will see and meet with Mavuso will be at the gate at the firm because I was not supporting some of his things that he was involved in. In fact I did not share any sentiments with him, that's what I maintain.

MR MTUNGWA: And then you and Mr Mavuso returned to Piet Retief. Do you deny this?

MR MTUNGWA: I dispute all of that because I've never been with Mavuso.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know that Mr Mavuso was fetched from Piet Retief to Pongola, that would be the following day after this meeting?

MR MTUNGWA: I have no idea because I was not leaving with Mavuso. Mavuso was staying at the hostel and I did not know his life and his engagements in the hostel because I was residing there in the location.

MR PRINSLOO: Well, it would appear that you have denied everything and I will not waste the Committee's time any further regarding that, but in as far as it regards Piet Retief, Piet Retief had a very strong IFP branch, is that correct?

MR MTUNGWA: I have no idea even to that effect because there was no way, or I had nothing to do with politics.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you attend any of the political meetings which were held by the IFP or any of the rallies?

MR MTUNGWA: Not even once did I attend political rallies.

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant maintains that you did attend such meetings.

MR MTUNGWA: Not at any stage did I attend any of the IFP meetings.

MR PRINSLOO: And nowhere in any IFP register will there be any indication of your membership of the IFP then?

MR MTUNGWA: That, in fact excites me. I'll be so excited and delighted if you were to go that way.

MR PRINSLOO: Just a moment please Chairperson. Your brother, Mr Amos Mtungwa, he was a highly placed and respected member of the IFP, is that correct, or at least at that stage.

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And he was also regarded as such in Piet Retief.

MR MTUNGWA: That I will not know because I was not with him all the time in areas outside ours.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo. Mr Bizos.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: May I hand in three copies of page 7 of the applicant's application for bail where this witness is recorded to have given his evidence, Mr Chairman? Will you receive it as an Exhibit or shall we just put it at the end? CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ...

MR BIZOS: Perhaps the interpreters should be given one so that we can expedite matters.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed I'm not sure ...

MR BIZOS: My learned friends on the other side can share. I think there's a copy for each one of you, but I think you only need one anyway it's so big.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be marked whatever the next Exhibit ...(indistinct) I'm not sure what it is.

MR BIZOS: Very well. I'll pass along particularly down there for starters, pass them right down please for the witness and the Evidence Leader and then share the others amongst yourselves. May I indicate at the outset Mr Chairman that we showed this document to Mr Prinsloo before he cross-examined.

Now you see we have the very brief record of your evidence before the magistrate. They didn't even record your surname, they just called you Philemon. Will you please ignore my notes after that?

There were notes made in preparation because we were not sure who this person was and the question mark, please ignore that, those are the handouts.

They say here that Philemon declares under oath in Zulu:

that would have been Mavuso,

Please take an assurance Mr Chairman that the next page merely shows that the Prosecutor says that he has no questions. Is that what you said? Does it correctly record what you've told us up to now?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes, the question regarding to his safety I did explain and also said that I had no idea about his safety because he was residing at the hostel and I was staying in the location.

MR BIZOS: Anyway, do you recall now that you see this document recorded by the magistrate in his long hand, that this is more or less what you said?

MR MTUNGWA: Yes.

MR BIZOS: We have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Bizos. Mr van der Heyde.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, I note that it is quarter past 3 already. I need to take instruction on one or two matters that arose during the cross examination up to date and maybe it would be a good time to adjourn and start afresh tomorrow morning on the instructions that I take tonight.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, we can do that but I'm just going to go down the line. Mr van der Walt.

MR VAN DER WALT: No question, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha.

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shubane.

MR SHUBANE: No questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi.

MR PADI: I have no questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt.

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you need to take instructions on some aspects of the testimony under cross-examination? Yes. Very well.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We were going to adjourn the proceedings in any case.

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, just one other matter. I already indicated that as far as we are concerned Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Msibi can be released from their subpoena to appear.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now Ms Mtanga, what is the position of those two witnesses?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson I agree with Adv Bizos. I have consulted with him and also with Adv van der Walt. I would like to request the Committee to excuse Mr Mkhwanazi, Mr Adam Msibi and Mr Mdu Msibi, we won't be calling them as witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Is there any objection to that Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, I would request that Mr Mdu Msibi remain behind. I will have to take further instructions from my client in this regard. It may well occur that he be called to testify. With Mkhwanazi I do not have any objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody else who would have an objection if we were to excuse Messrs Msibi and Mkhwanazi at this stage? Very well. If not, then we will let the proceedings stand down until tomorrow morning to enable Mr Swanepoel to consider whether he's got any cross-examination of this witness. Mr Ali Msibi and Mr Mkhwanazi will then be excused from further attendance at these proceedings. We will, under those circumstances, adjourn and reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.