--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: I would like to place on record our gratitude to the members of what used to be known as the Prisons Department, Correctional Services, for having brought the prisoners here so early this morning. The fact that we are starting late has nothing to do with them and we thank them for the effort they made.

We are now proceeding with the application of Sithembiso Vanana. The Committee remains the same, that is Judges Wilson, Miller and Motata. Would the representatives of the parties please put themselves on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members. I'm Andries van Niekerk from Dordrecht and I represent my client, Mr Richard Rossouw and the Rossouw family. Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. My name is Thabile Thabethe. I'm the Evidence Leader for the TRC. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Right. We now commence with leading of evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: May the applicant be sworn in, Mr Chairperson? Thank you.

JUDGE MOTATA: May I ask in which language will he testify?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Xhosa, Chairperson.

SITHEMBISO DAVID VANANA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Vanana, is it correct that you were born on the 7th of January 1977 in Dordrecht?

MR VANANA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And is it also correct that your grew up in the area of Dordrecht?

MR VANANA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee to which standard - which standard did you pass at school?

MR VANANA: Standard Five.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In which year?

MR VANANA: In 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, in which year did you join the PAC?

MR VANANA: I joined PAC in 1992.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Of which component structure were you a member? Were you a member of PAC or Student Wing, or Youth Wing or Women's Wing of Peace?

MR VANANA: I was a member of Azanu.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I take it that you know Dordrecht very well, am I correct?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee about the incident in which you are applying for amnesty? How did it come about that you attacked the said farm?

MR VANANA:

CHAIRPERSON: What was the sound you heard?

MR VANANA: It was a firearm. It sounded like a firearm.

...(intervention)

JUDGE MOTATA: Just before that, you were asked by the Chairperson about what sound did you hear, you said the sound of a gun shot. Was Mr Rossouw shot?

MR VANANA: It was not Mr Rossouw, but it was his wife who was shot.

JUDGE MOTATA: Where was his wife then, from where you heard the gun shot?

MR VANANA: She was in the kitchen.

JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

MR VANANA:

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing in that shop?

MR VANANA: I went there to rob the money because my intention was to go back to the Transkei, to get hold of Mr Mzwake and get the training.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were looking for this money all the time, so you could use it to get yourself trained? That's what you've told us.

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That is for your personal advantage. You wanted the training.

MR VANANA: Yes, I wanted to get training, that's why I attacked Mr van Niekerk because I wanted to get money and go to Butterworth and get hold of Mr Mzwake who was going to take me for training.

JUDGE MILLER: What made you think that you would be able to find Mr Mzwake, because you'd been trying with Mr Gebe for a long time to get hold of Mzwake in Butterworth without success. Why did you insist on going back to Butterworth to find somebody you couldn't trace?

MR VANANA: I knew for a fact that he would be found in that house where we were once accommodated in Butterworth. I had told myself that I was certain that the people would tell me about his whereabouts.

CHAIRPERSON: But you've told us that you went there time and again looking for him and you couldn't find him.

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: As you indicated that you were arrested in Cape Town, then were you taken back to Dordrecht? What happened after your arrest in Cape Town?

MR VANANA: After I was arrested in Cape Town, it became apparent that there was no person who was going to stand up for me like my parents, though I knew very well that I was not doing this for my parents. I decided to reveal the name of one comrade who was present so that he would come there and advise me as to what to do and what was going to be done by the organisation. I mentioned his name and he was arrested. Also when he came, he told me that. The very first question that he asked was my membership card. I told him that my membership card got lost in Transkei during the shooting and then he told me that he was not in a position to go there and stand for me to the other members of the organisation, but he promised that he would go and ask if the organisation would do anything, though there was no hope at all because I did not have the membership card with me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you not refer him to Dordrecht, to your Chairman, Dordrecht? I take it that you had a structure in Dordrecht, as you were a member?

MR VANANA: Yes, we had a structure, but Mr Kalet was no longer in Dordrecht at the time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were there no other members of PAC of the Executive in Dordrecht who can verify that you were a member of PAC?

MR VANANA: There were members like Gunumsa Simphiwe Manshe, but he told me that he was not sure that the organisation would take the responsibility because what I did, for instance stealing the car, I did not bring the car to the organisation after stealing the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what you are saying, you're telling the Committee that the bakkie that you robbed from Mr Rossouw's farm, you only take it that the only thing that you took away at Mr Rossouw's farm at Dordrecht was the motor vehicle.

MR VANANA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And the motor vehicle that you took away from Mr Rossouw's farm, you did not hand it over to PAC.

MR VANANA: No, we couldn't take it to the organisation because that was the car that we used to go to Transkei.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The motor vehicle, you used it for your own personal benefits.

MR VANANA: We used it for our personal benefits. We sold the car because we wanted to have some money to buy food and accommodation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The last point, am I correct to say that time when you committed this robbery at Mr Rossouw's farm, you were not a member of APLA. You were still having some - you wanted to join APLA.

MR VANANA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was this Mr Gebe a member of APLA or was he just a member of PAC?

MR VANANA: He told me that he was the APLA member.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where was he from? Was he not from Dordrecht?

MR VANANA: He was from Transkei. He went to Mr Simphiwe's house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairperson, that's all the evidence.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, before Mr van Niekerk's given an opportunity, the applicant, he is applying for the incident that took place at the Rossouw's farm in the Dordrecht area. Is he applying for the van Niekerk shooting at Klapmuts and the robbery of bottle stores and attempted robbery of shops? I don't see anything like that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE MILLER: So it's just the one incident?

MR MBANDAZAYO: In fact also myself, I was also surprised during the evidence. I didn't know about ...

JUDGE MILLER: The full story.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The full story. Mr van Niekerk at Klipfontein.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Some are new for me.

JUDGE MILLER: So we're only concerned now with ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm concerned with Mr Rossouw because that's the only incident that he applied for amnesty for.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you. Yes. Yes, Mr van Niekerk.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you very much.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, can you tell the Committee where you grew up?

MR VANANA: I was born on Mr Rossouw's farm and I grew up there, started my early years at school up until 1990 when I was doing standard five.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Am I right if I say that you visited the farm over weekends when you were not in school?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: And am I further right if I say Sir, that your parents at that stage were also staying on that farm?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Am I further right if I say, Sir, that you parents stayed there for plus minus twenty-one years on that farm?

MR VANANA: That is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So you knew this farm very well Sir, is that right?

MR VANANA: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So I can take it from that, that was the reason why you attacked this farm, because you knew it well?

MR VANANA: That is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So can you just tell us that you've just testified about another murder in Cape Town, attempted hijacking and another robbery charge. Why didn't you apply for amnesty in those cases, Sir?

MR VANANA: According to the knowledge that I got when I was busy applying for amnesty, I heard that one should only apply for offences taken place from 1984 up until 1993, I cannot include anything that took place in 1994 or 95.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, the cut off date in fact was the 10th of May 1994 for commission of offences, so we don't know the dates, because he's mentioning now 1995 and 1994.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I'll get to that Honourable Member. Sir, if I listen to you, you sounded like a very political person, is that right?

MR VANANA: I can agree with you when you say I am a political person because it is because of Mr Rossouw's treatment that led me to realise the oppression that the people were talking about.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So Sir can you just elaborate on that? What did Mr Rossouw exactly do to you then?

MR VANANA: Mr Rossouw first of all was a racist and an oppressor. Those were the reasons that led me to join the PAC organisation, because this organisation was fighting directly with the whites.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, can you just clarify for me, were you, at the time of this incident, were you a member of the PAC or were you attempting to join the PAC?

MR VANANA: I was already a PAC member because I had the PAC membership card during this incident.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry. At that stage you were sixteen years of age, is that right?

MR VANANA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a full member of the PAC at the age of sixteen?

MR VANANA: Yes, I had a membership card at the time.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir were you shy about being associated with the PAC, Sir?

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MR VAN NIEKERK: Well, it's basically the same. Were you shy about being associated with the PAC, or were you proud of being a member of the PAC?

MR VANANA: I was very proud of being a PAC member because that was an eye opener for me and I was determined to fight for my country, more especially after acquiring the training of APLA.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir, can you then just explain to us that while you were busy with the trial in Grahamstown, on this incident, why didn't you mention then that you were a member of the PAC and that this was a political murder?

MR VANANA: The reason for me not to reveal that information, it was because at the time, it came to my mind that if I do that, the sentence would be heavy because the Government of the day was white.

JUDGE MILLER: But at your trial, that was during 1995 and there was a new government then and in fact I see that the Judge who tried your case was a Judge who was appointed by the new government, not the old government.

MR VANANA: The Judge did not tell me that he was appointed by the new government, that is why I was not aware of that fact.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew there was a new government in power?

MR VANANA: Yes, I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So am I right that your version at the said trial was that you did this action because you were under duress, Sir, is that right?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So why did you lie to the Court there, Sir?

MR VANANA: It is because I was trying to save my skin. I wanted to be released.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So isn't that what you are doing today Sir? You are just trying to save yourself again.

MR VANANA: No, that is not true. I made this application with the aim of making sure that Mr Rossouw knows very well what led to those circumstances that happened on his farm.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, I'm going to go a little bit further, am I right that you also made a statement to the police on that incident?

MR VANANA: Yes, there was a statement that I made to the police.

MR VAN NIEKERK: And am I right Sir, that the Court accepted the statement that you made to the police as evidence at that trial?

MR VANANA: I can say so.

MR VAN NIEKERK: And am I right Sir, that in that statement that you made to the police, and I'm referring to page 33 of the documents that were sent to us, that you said the reason why the Rossouw's were to be killed was that the accused was known to them and the killing would result in his or his ...(indistinct) identities being concealed? Isn't that the real reason Sir why you committed this offence?

MR VANANA: No, that is not true Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So isn't it also a strange coincidence that at the time when this incident was committed, that you were under the authority of your father on a pending case against you, Sir, is that right?

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Rossouw, the interpreter has requested for you to repeat the question please - sorry, Mr van Niekerk.

MR VAN NIEKERK: The last question?

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, if you could just repeat the last question please?

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir am I right that at the stage when this incident took place, Sir, that there was a pending case against you at Dordrecht?

MR VANANA: That is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So am I right that at that time it was case number 359/93 and that accused number one, was yourself and that Simphiwe Manshe was accused number two Sir?

MR VANANA: Please repeat the question.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Am I right Sir that you were accused number one and Simphiwe Manshe was accused number two in that case Sir, that was pending against you at the time when this incident took place, Sir?

MR VANANA: Simphiwe was not present at that case.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, I will refresh your memory. Maybe you cannot remember this but the case number was 359 of 93 and the charges were housebreaking with intention to commit theft, whereby a vehicle was strangely enough also involved on the same farm, Sarelsdal, Sir. Can you explain that Sir?

JUDGE MILLER: The same farm as the Rossouw's farm?

MR VAN NIEKERK: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MILLER: So it was a housebreaking charge and what else? Car theft? Or what do you say about a car?

MR VAN NIEKERK: Honourable Member, I can just say that a car was involved but the charge as I got it was formulated as housebreaking and theft and it should actually have been motor vehicle theft. Isn't that a strange coincidence, Sir?

JUDGE MILLER: In that case of the car theft and arrest, I was arrested because I was suspected, I was never involved. I was at school at the time when the car was stolen.

MR VAN NIEKERK: And Sir, am I right that you did not stand this trial but that you absconded from the Court hearing to commit this incident and subsequently you left to go to the Transkei, is that right?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct. I didn't go to Court because on that week, it was when this incident was taking place.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, isn't it a strange coincidence that the two of yourselves were again implicated as possible suspects in that case, Sir?

MR VANANA: You are mistaken Sir. I do not remember Simphiwe Manshe saying anything about the car theft. I'm the one who was arrested. He was never even accused in that case.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, I'll take you a little bit further now. I want to just to briefly go on the case that was there in Klapmuts in Cape Town. Can you still maybe remember what was the exact date when that incident took place, Sir?

MR VANANA: No, Sir, I cannot remember, but I think it was round about April, but I cannot be certain about that.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Maybe I can just refresh your memory Sir. It happened on the 17th of March 1994 and you were arrested a month later on the 17th of the Fourth month 1994, is that more or less right, Sir?

MR VANANA: I cannot dispute that, but I cannot be so sure about the date and the month.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. But Sir, if I put it to you that it was the 17th of March 1994, will you be able to say why you didn't apply for amnesty in that case?

MR VANANA: As I have already explained before that about the date, I only remember that it took place in April. I am not sure about March. If it had taken place in March and it was still clear in my memory, I am certain that I could have applied for amnesty.

JUDGE MILLER: Well Mr van Niekerk is telling you that it did take place in March.

MR VANANA: Yes, but my problem now is I was not aware of the month. I did not know the month.

JUDGE MILLER: I don't understand what you're saying. What do you mean you didn't know the month, you mean at the time that you committed it, you didn't know that it was March or April?

MR VANANA: Yes.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, if I can take it a little bit further that if this incident happened in March, then it means that attempted robbery or hijacking or another robbery case, happened between the 1st of August and the month of March. Why didn't you apply for amnesty in those two cases? Are you going to answer that question?

MR VANANA: Yes, I am going to respond to that. It is because of the fact that in my mind, I thought this incident took place in April. I am getting this for the very first time that it took place in March.

JUDGE MILLER: What Mr van Niekerk is saying is, he says that the murder of Mr van Niekerk down in Klapmuts in the Cape was on the 17th of March, but from what you said to us today, the hijacking of that vehicle in which two women were in and the robbery, attempted robbery of the bottle store in Idutwa, that must have happened before March. Why didn't you apply for amnesty in respect of those incidents that you've described?

MR VANANA: Are you talking about the incidents that took place in the Transkei?

JUDGE MILLER: Yes. That's what he's asking about, the incidents that took place in Transkei. Mr van Niekerk's asking you why didn't you apply for amnesty in respect of those incidents, that's the question he's put to you.

MR VANANA: I thought that they would be included on this application because they took place after the Rossouw's incident. I thought that they would be automatically included. The one that I did not mention was Mr van Niekerk's incident.

CHAIRPERSON: You made no mention of any other offences on your application form, did you?

MR VANANA: No, but if I'm not mistaken, I made mention of the Transkei incident. Perhaps I'm mistaken. I thought that they were included.

CHAIRPERSON: A letter was written to you asking for further details, page 6, on the 31st of August 1999.

MR VANANA: Mr Hlangana brought this correspondence to me. Mr Hlangana told me that all the incidents that took place after Mr Rossouw's incident, I was supposed to mention that in my statement and their addresses, but I decided that it would be a futile exercise for me to mention the incident without having their physical addresses.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all the explanation your want to give? That it would be a futile exercise for you to mention them because you didn't have their addresses, but you're asking us to believe that you thought that they were included in in your amnesty application, is that so?

MR VANANA: Apart that all of them would be automatically included, or they are included.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr van Niekerk.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you. Sir, just a last question on that incident at Klapmuts. Is it right that at that said trial, Sir, that you put the blame on a certain Patrick Makinana, that he was the person that did the shooting, Sir? Is that right, Sir?

MR VANANA: No, that is not true.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Did you then plead guilty Sir, to the charge there that day, if you say you didn't put the blame on Patrick Makinana?

MR VANANA: I pleaded guilty to the shooting, but I explained that it was self-defence on my side against Mr van Niekerk.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, am I further right that your three companions, Patrick Makinana, Sandile Jekwo and Leyana Fanya testified against you at the said trial in Cape Town, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: And that all three of them testified that you were the person that shot the said Mr van Niekerk through the window, while he was sitting in the vehicle, you shot him a second time while he was sitting behind the steering wheel. You shot him for a second time while he was lying on the ground, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So am I right that at that stage the reason why you were on the farm of Mr van Niekerk, was the fact that all of you were working on that farm that day, Sir, is that right?

MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir, just on your evidence, why didn't you use that money to go back to the Transkei to join the APLA force? Why did you have to kill somebody and take his vehicle?

MR VANANA: The money that we got there was not enough to take me to the Transkei because we were getting only R20 per day.

JUDGE MOTATA: Did you ask for assistance from the PAC to send you out to the Transkei to receive training because you were a card carrying member?

MR VANANA: No in Kraaifontein I did not know any person belonging to the organisation who would help me.

JUDGE MOTATA: Where did you obtain the card to be a member of the PAC?

MR VANANA: In the Dordrecht.

JUDGE MOTATA: Were there offices of the PAC at Dordrecht?

MR VANANA: Yes.

JUDGE MOTATA: Why didn't you approach those offices there where you obtained your card as a member?

MR VANANA: It is because at the time I was in Cape Town, they were in Dordrecht, there was no way for me to get there.

JUDGE MOTATA: You may proceed, Mr van Niekerk, thank you.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you Sir. Sir, can you just explain that, in your application and I'm referring to page three paragraph 11(b), you'll see that it was Mr Simphiwe who gave you the order to go to the farm of Rossouw and to attack him. Is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Can you then explain that why only on page seven did you make mention that:

Sir?

MR VANANA: The reason for me to include Simphiwe there, it was my mistake. I did not know Mr Gebe's real name up until such time that Mr Manshe explained to me further about Mr Gebe.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, so what you are telling me now that what you wrote down on page three, that that is wrong Sir, that that is a lie. Is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: It was just a mistake about a person who commanded me to commit the act.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr van Niekerk. What did you know Mr Gebe as?

MR VANANA: I knew him as an APLA guerilla.

JUDGE MILLER: No, but you said you learned later from Manshe, Nelson Gebe's real name. Until you learned that from Manshe, what did you know Mr Gebe as? What did you think his name was?

MR VANANA: We were referring to him as Monwai.

JUDGE MILLER: Just repeat that.

MR VANANA: Monwai.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr van Niekerk.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you Sir. So if you said that you made a mistake on page three here, then I would like to ask you that on page four, I've got a translation of a Xhosa that was written, I presume it was written by yourself, you also said there and I'm quoting from paragraph two. You said:

And then the first paragraph you said:

Is that also a mistake Sir?

MR VANANA: That was a mistake because even at the time, I did not know Mr Gebe's name.

JUDGE MILLER: But now why didn't you refer to him as Monwai, if you didn't know his name? You knew him to be Monwai. Why didn't you say Monwai gave us the instruction?

MR VANANA: I thought that since I didn't know the surname it would look more like a fabricated story. I decided to use Simphiwe Manshe so that if he is apprehended, he would just mention the fact that it was not Monwai, but it was Mr Gebe.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr van Niekerk. Just to ask, I've just seen it here before I forget, on page three paragraph 10(d) you say I robbed money and firearms and I destroyed car for them. What car did you destroy?

MR VANANA: I made a mistake by saying that I destroyed the car.

JUDGE MILLER: Is that the car that you sold in Butterworth or Idutwa?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr van Niekerk.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you. Just on that point Sir, now how much money did you get for the said vehicle?

MR VANANA: We sold it for R5 000.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So this R5 000 was not enough for you to join APLA, is that right?

MR VANANA: It was enough because I was already there in the Transkei, but the only problem was the fact that I couldn't get hold of Mr Mzwake.

JUDGE MILLER: At that stage, there were many members of PAC in Transkei in particular. Why was it only Mr Mzwake that you had to see? Couldn't you get hold of some PAC member or APLA member in Transkei at that stage and say: "Look" you know, "here I am, young and able-bodied, wanting to be trained, I want to join your organisation." Why didn't you look elsewhere to get the training that you so desperately sought?

MR VANANA: Mr Gebe was the person who had in-depth knowledge about the people in Transkei who were in a position to take me to the training. He had only told me about Mr Mzwake, he never mentioned the fact that there was somebody else, because I am certain if that was mentioned to me, we could have opted for that particular ...(indistinct - talking simultaneously)

JUDGE MILLER: Because at that stage the PAC and indeed APLA weren't even underground, particularly in Transkei, they were open organisations.

MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir, but because of the fact that I did not know Comrades from the Transkei who would help me, take me for training, it was only Mr Gebe that was known to me.

JUDGE MILLER: Didn't you refer to this person who got shot in the head, what was his name, Solane, as being a comrade?

MR VANANA: To whom?

JUDGE MILLER: The person who got shot in the head and died.

MR VANANA: Yes, I did mention that.

JUDGE MILLER: Wasn't he a comrade of yours? Didn't you refer to him as a comrade?

MR VANANA: Yes, he was a comrade.

JUDGE MILLER: So why couldn't he put you on to members of PAC or APLA in Transkei? Why didn't you ask him to assist in finding somebody other than Mr Mzwake who was untraceable?

MR VANANA: It is became Mr Gebe had suggested, had told me about Mzwake, he did not mention anything about somebody else, because I had told Sanele that Mr Gebe was about to take me to somebody else.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying, am I correct in this, that you were a card-carrying member of the PAC, keen to join APLA, but the only person you knew with any PAC connection was Mr Gebe?

MR VANANA: The only person that was known to me who would take me to join APLA was Mr Gebe, only Mr Gebe.

CHAIRPERSON: And you made no attempt to find anyone else, to approach the PAC organisation, despite the fact you were committing robberies and murders to join? Is that what you would have us believe?

MR VANANA: Yes, because I met with Mr Gebe who had told me that he was an APLA member, I believed him and I believed him as the only person who'd take me there for training. No one else was known to me or a person that was going to advise me further. I was satisfied with Mr Gebe.

JUDGE MOTATA: Before the attack on Mr Rossouw's farm, for how long did he know Mr Gebe?

MR VANANA: About a month. About three months.

JUDGE MOTATA: And where did you people meet, that is yourself and Mr Gebe?

MR VANANA: Mr Gebe was from the Transkei, he was staying at Mr Simphiwe Manshe's house. I used to visit Simphiwe Manshe in his house and I met with Mr Gebe and I asked him about his origin. He told me that he was coming from the Transkei. I asked him whether he was a comrade or not. He said, yes, he had trained as an APLA guerilla, that is when I told him that my intention also was to get training to be an APLA member.

JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you. You may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Before - but you were a PAC member, a card-carrying member, presumably you had been registered at a PAC branch when they issued you with a card.

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go back to that branch?

MR VANANA: I did not have a problem with Mr Gebe up until we reached Transkei. The reason for me not to go back to Dordrecht is solely because I knew that I was wanted, the police were after me. I decided to go and stay in Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: So you weren't really keen to go and join APLA, you decided to go to Cape Town?

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, are you aware that this Comrade Gebe that you referred to, that he was declared an habitual criminal in 1983, Sir? Do you know that, Sir?

MR VANANA: He never mentioned that to me.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Didn't Mr Manshe maybe tell you that Mr Gebe was declared an habitual criminal because of his activities?

MR VANANA: He didn't tell me that, Simphiwe that is.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, am I right if I say that this farm, ...(indistinct) is about thirty kilometres out of town, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Are you talking about Mr Rossouw's farm?

MR VAN NIEKERK: That's correct. Maybe I must just abbreviate fully, thirty kilometres out of Dordrecht.

MR VANANA: Yes, I agree with you.

MR VAN NIEKERK: And Sir, am I further right that if I listen to you correctly, that your intention was to get money and to get firearms on the said farm, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So it was not your intention, it was not your orders that you must take the vehicle, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry. Did you get any firearms from the farm?

MR VANANA: No.

JUDGE MILLER: You see what I - why didn't you get any firearms from the farm?

MR VANANA: I do not know Sir because we searched for the firearms but we couldn't find any.

JUDGE MILLER: Well this is what I don't understand because I read from your letter, this translation of page four:

that's Mr Rossouw's wife,

Did you write that?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Now if she was trying to reach for a gun, you say that you searched the house but couldn't find a gun, what are you saying? What about the gun she was trying to reach for? You didn't even have to search for it. You said that she was trying to reach for a gun so you shot her, now you say you searched the house and you couldn't find a gun. What is the truth?

MR VANANA: It was the firearm that was in Nelson's possession. When he was shot at, it was because she was trying to grab the gun that was in Nelson's possession.

JUDGE MILLER: Now the deceased, Mrs Rossouw, how old was she?

MR VANANA: I cannot be sure, but she was an elderly person.

JUDGE MILLER: I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think I remember seeing something. Was she not nearly eighty years of age? Eighty-two years of age.

CHAIRPERSON: He was, he was.

JUDGE MILLER: He was? Yes, in any event, so you say that the gun that you mention here that she was trying to reach for, was the gun in one of your robbers ...? She was seventy-two years of age, I'm told. Mr van Niekerk.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, just tell me now, how was it possible for you to see, or write in your letter here, that because she was trying to reach for the gun, while you just testified this morning that you heard a loud noise, Sir, so you couldn't have seen it, but how can you write this down in this letter of yours? Can you explain that Sir?

MR VANANA: Yes, I heard a gun shot. The fact that she was shot at while trying to grab a gun, that was explained by Nelson..

MR VAN NIEKERK: So why don't you write it like that, Sir? You said that:

Sir, that means that you were there, that you saw it.

MR VANANA: That is my mistake Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, to get back to the farmhouse, that wasn't you intention to steal the vehicle, yet you were thirty kilometres out of town, it was six o'clock in the morning Sir, how did you investigate? How would you be able to leave the scene before the police would arrive there Sir? How did you think you would be able to get to Dordrecht or to the Transkei while you were thirty kilometres from the town Sir? Can you explain that?

MR VANANA: We decided upon taking the car after the mission, after taking the firearms and the money.

JUDGE MILLER: I think what Mr van Niekerk's asking you is, you said that when you went to the farm, your intention was to steal money and firearms and that it was not your intention to steal the motor car. That's what you said a few minutes ago when, in answer to a question put to you by Mr van Niekerk, you agree with that, or did you make a mistake when you said that?

MR VANANA: When I said that we went there for firearms, I thought that it was obvious that we were to take the car also because moving from the farm to the Transkei, it was quite a long distance.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but Mr van Niekerk a few minutes ago, specifically asked you, put it to you, he said to you: "So it was not your intention to steal the motor vehicle?"

And you said: "Yes, that was not our intention." That's what you said a matter of minutes ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I add something to that? You added, you said it was not your order or intention to steal the car.

JUDGE MILLER: To steal the car, that's what you said. Now was that wrong when you said that?

MR VANANA: I did not mention anything about the car but I think it was my mistake to omit that because truly speaking we took the car on the farm, we did not have means of transport.

JUDGE MILLER: How did you get ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about what you said three minutes ago in your evidence, where you did say about the car, not what you wrote down on the paper, what you said to us here. You said that it was not your order or intention to get vehicles, you were just looking for money or weapons.

MR VANANA: I made a mistake perhaps.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr van Niekerk.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you. Sir, don't you find it further surprising, Sir, that - I've got in my possession two statements made by your mother and made by your father that on the day when the police brought you to the scene to make some pointing-outs, that you said the following to them: "Sorry Mother" and further: "It was not my intention to come and do this on the farm, I only met somebody on the way from the Transkei who asked me to come to do this on the farm. We both then started to cry." And also a similar statement made by your father. What I'm asking you, Sir, is why didn't you mention to them then that this was politically motivated, Sir?

MR VANANA: The reason for me not to tell my parents was because of the fact that I knew very well that they were going to make statements about some things that I had uttered. I decided that I'd never tell them anything about politics in this matter.

MR VAN NIEKERK: But Sir am I not correct that you testified earlier today that you are not ashamed of being associated with the PAC, Sir and you are a very politically motivated person?

MR VANANA: Yes, I did mention that, Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So why didn't you tell that to your father and mother, because you were doing it for them, Sir?

MR VANANA: Because I was arrested, I decided that I will not tell them.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you. Honourable Chairperson, I just wish to hand these documents as Exhibits, that's A6 and A8 affidavit and then also the previous conviction of Mr Gebe that was referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) Exhibit A and Exhibit B. Exhibit A will be the statement by Elliot Ntululi Vanana, is that Exhibit A?

CHAIRPERSON: And Anna Vanana, Exhibit B.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Ja, then the previous convictions for Mr Gebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit C, the impressive list of previous convictions relating mainly to theft, escaping ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Sir, to get back to that R5 000 that you got for this vehicle that you sold, how long did that R5 000 last you?

MR VANANA: If I'm not mistaken, I think it was a month and three weeks.

MR VAN NIEKERK: And am I right, Sir, that this R12 000 was used for your own needs, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Yes, we used it for our own needs, because we did not have money for food when we were staying in Idutwa.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, where did you get money to travel to Cape Town? Where did you get that money from?

MR VANANA: I made an arrangement to pay later from Transkei to Queenstown, but when I arrived in Queenstown, I ran away from the owner of the taxi, when I arrived in the taxi rank, so I did not pay.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, just tell me now further that as you knew, Mr and Mrs Rossouw were on the farm, you probably knew that they were very old people, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So you probably knew that three young, strong men wouldn't have any difficulties in overpowering them, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir, the question I wanted to ask right from the start is then, why did you have to kill them, or why did you have to kill Mrs Rossouw then, why?

MR VANANA: According to what I heard from Nelson, Mrs Rossouw tried to grab the firearm that he was pointing her with.

CHAIRPERSON: That is an old woman of seventy-two tried to grab a firearm from Nelson, a young man.

JUDGE MILLER: Why did you stab Mr van Niekerk?

MR VAN NIEKERK: That's Mr Rossouw.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr van Niekerk, I get mixed up, Mr Rossouw, why did you stab Mr Rossouw?

MR VANANA: It is because he did not want to tell us where the money and the firearms were.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir but didn't you testify that you were busy torturing him? Was that necessary Sir?

MR VANANA: According to Mr Gebe, he said that if he was not telling us where the money was, it was necessary for us to torture him, so that is why we tortured him.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, don't you think that the four of you, if you used balaclavas and you just tied up Mr Rossouw and Mrs Rossouw, that the three of you could have searched this house and could have found the weapons or the money on your own? Isn't that also a possibility, Sir?

MR VANANA: It could have been so, but according what we were told, we were not told to do it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Torture doesn't mean stabbing an old man with a knife, does it? You could twist his fingers, slap his face, a number of ways you could make things painful for him, weren't there?

MR VANANA: Yes, there are many ways, but what we were told, we were told to stab him with a knife, because we were given knives when we were from the township in Dordrecht and Mr Gebe had a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: And he gave you knives to tell you to stab the old man, is that what you're saying?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is what I'm saying.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir, am I right that you were the only person that knew about the pliers in the said garage, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: That is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So you were the person that went into the store to get the pliers, is that right?

MR VANANA: I was the one who broke the window and I also took them. They were standing outside. After breaking the window, I then gave Mr Gebe the pliers outside.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. You were the person that also cut the wires, is that right Sir? The telephone wire, sorry.

MR VANANA: No.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Who cut the telephone wires then Sir?

MR VANANA: There were two pliers there. It was Mr Gebe who cut the wires. I was also on the tree, but I didn't get the pliers and then Mr Gebe did that job because he is the one who got the pliers first.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Just lastly what I want to ask you is that am I right if I say that you were plus minus a month and a half in the Transkei while you were looking to join the PAC is that right, or the APLA, the armed wing of the PAC?

MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR VAN NIEKERK: And in that month and a half, you could not find this person that was in Butterworth so that you could join the APLA force, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN NIEKERK: So you did not leave messages for him and Mr Gebe with all his contacts, was not able to get hold of this person, is that right Sir?

MR VANANA: Every time when we went to Butterworth, we would leave messages to the lady there that when he arrived, she must tell him that we were looking for him and we were in Idutwa, so we would always leave messages when we would go there.

CHAIRPERSON: And you got no response?

MR VANANA: No we got no response.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was obviously a useless contact, wasn't it? A man who couldn't be bothered to reply to your messages. Can you explain why you didn't then go to one of the PAC, if you were in fact keen to join APLA, go to one of the PAC branches and tell them that you wanted to join because we know the PAC were always looking for recruits.

MR VANANA: When we would arrive there, we were told that he was not there or he didn't come, but we always left messages, so we would be told that he did not come or he was not there, so I thought that this lady was trying to reach this Mr Mzwake, but Mr Mzwake was not going to that place.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was a useless contact. He was not going to that place. You have just told us that is what you believed. Why didn't you go elsewhere if you were in fact keen to join APLA?

MR VANANA: I thought that it would be Mr Mzwake that would take me to training as he was chosen by Mr Nelson, the person who knew me from where I come from. So I trusted him that the person that he chose, he would be the one with the full knowledge of what was going to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have just told us, you thought that person was not going to that house.

Would this be a convenient stage to take the short adjournment?

MR VAN NIEKERK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now take the short adjournment.

SITHEMBISO DAVID VANANA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You did say that you'd finished, didn't you?

MR VAN NIEKERK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I have only one more question to ask. So just lastly here, don't you find it strange that my client has informed me that while you were still on the farm, or around Dordrecht, that there were constant thefts at Sarelsdale where this incident took place, but since you left the said area and you were locked up, that since that date there was no theft or any similar activities being done on Sarah's Dale. Don't you think that is a strange coincidence?

MR VANANA: This also surprises me.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Don't you think Sir that this is related to the fact that you are not there anymore, Sir?

MR VANANA: I think that if it was me, those things were going to be found on me, if I was the one stealing or taking

them, so it is possible that it was someone else, because I'm not involved.

MR VAN NIEKERK: No further questions, Mr Chairperson

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN NIEKERK

S THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm not going to cross-examine. Just one aspect to clarify.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Vanana, you've testified earlier on that you joined the PAC at the Dordrecht PAC offices. Correct?

MR VANANA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Are you aware that there were actually no PAC or there are no PAC offices in Dordrecht?

MR VANANA: At that time there was a PAC office because I've got my membership card from ...(indistinct)

MS THABETHE: How come then there's no record that these offices existed?

MR VANANA: I don't know. I don't know why there are no records.

MS THABETHE: Are you sure there were offices or you just heard that there were PAC offices?

MR VANANA: I am sure that there were PAC offices there. One of the offices was next to the bar in town.

MS THABETHE: I have no further questions.

JUDGE MILLER: If I may just ask a question on that. How did you lose your card, your membership card?

MR VANANA: I lost my card when we were running away, when Sanele was being shot, we were running away from the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: No re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I have one question that arises from the police report on page ten. Did you also steal clothing and other goods from the house?

MR VANANA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have said you got no money because the police record there having been property to the value of a thousand rand involved. Is that incorrect? You say that is incorrect?

MR VANANA: It is not correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: That concludes the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you have no witnesses you wish to call?

MR VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, my client doesn't want to testify, he just wants me just to make a brief statement on his behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll give you a chance to make a statement in a moment. You're not calling any evidence?

MR VAN NIEKERK: No, I'm not going to call any evidence.

MS THABETHE: No evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll hear the applicant first, if he has anything he wishes to say, or his counsel.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, there is not much I want to say except to say that for the sake of consistency and certainly, I would like to bore the Committee because I have two similar cases to this one before which I have had. Luckily Judge Miller and Judge Motata were present that day in Johannesburg and Adv ...(indistinct) where applicant George Sapele, case AM5022/97, broke out of prison and stole money in prison in order to join APLA, he was also following a member of APLA, but unfortunately the Committee felt that he was not a member of APLA. What he did, he was not doing it on behalf of APLA and so the results were negative, so I won't like to bore the Committee because I have a precedent in front of me to which to refer and also the case of Ramaila last year, 24th

September 1999, AM3740/96 where the Committee comprised of Judge Pillay, Adv Sigodi and Mr Wynand Malan, a similar case where a farm was robbed and this particular person is also similar to this, he was working on the farm, on the same farm, he was a worker on the same farm where he robbed and killed the farmer in order to join PAC, APLA, so also there the results were negative. What I'm trying to get is that I cannot take my case any further Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Give - you have given me the first, the second number was 3740 of 96.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, AM3740/96 and the other one is 5022/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Oh, you wish to make a statement.

MR VAN NIEKERK: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR VAN NIEKERK IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairperson on behalf of my client and the family Rossouw, Mr Chairperson, it is my instructions to oppose this amnesty on the following grounds, that apart from what was heard today, it is our belief that this was not done for any political gain. There was no proportionality as well as the fact that the person involved did not make a full confession or didn't put all the facts in front of the Commission today.

Firstly, that he testified today about other incidents that he did not tell the inquirer of the Commission, there was no such proof or Mr Mbethe, that was the person that actually did the investigation, that he wasn't aware of the facts, this was omitted by the applicant. I think that this is detrimental to his application.

Furthermore, I'm not going to abbreviate any further. There were contradictions right from the start. I think the Commission is well aware of all the different contradictions and I just want to lastly say that I agree with what Judge Reddy said on page 29 when he said that in that case that he found the accused a cunning and a sly witness.

I therefore request humbly that amnesty not be granted to the applicant. Thank you.

MS THABETHE: I support my learned colleague.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take time. What's the next matter?

JUDGE MILLER: The decision is reserved, we hand down written decisions. It's the policy to hand down written decisions which will be done in the very near future.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a short adjournment now? When I say short, I mean literally a minute or two, to short out your?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, just to short out ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we'll take a very short adjournment.

ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON: We now come to the applications of Mr Nyamezele Ndingane and Mr Lulamile Steven Baleka. The Committee remains the same, Judges Wilson, Miller and Motata. The applicant's legal adviser, will he please put himself on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicants in this matter. Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. Thabile Thabethe, Evidence Leader, TRC. Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the first applicant will be Lulamile Steven Baleka, he will be the first one to testify and he's Xhosa speaking, also may he be sworn in Chairperson?

LULAMILE STEVEN BALEKA: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Baleka, is it correct that you were born on the 12th of February 1956 in Port Elizabeth?

MR BALEKA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how far did you go at school?

MR BALEKA: Standard eight.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee when did you join PAC and who recruited you into PAC?

MR BALEKA: I join PAC in 1971. I was recruited by Comrade Bonakele Filita.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And when did you become a member of APLA?

MR BALEKA: I joined APLA in 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you join APLA?

MR BALEKA: In the Transkei, in Lusikisiki, in the Transkei.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Under whose command were you in Lusikisiki?

MR BALEKA: Under Ace's command.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Baleka, just before we come to the incident, is it correct that you also have some previous convictions?

MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee briefly about your previous convictions?

MR BALEKA: Sir, from the time when I joined PAC in 1971, I was used as a courier. The organisations at that time were banned and at the same time we were trying to be disciplined PAC members following the policy of the PAC, but at that time there was no work, the work was scarce and there were things that we did, even though the PAC was giving us the correct guidance to follow its policy but we did some things on the side and the previous convictions were caused by the time that we were - by the situation that we were under.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Baleka, can we come then to this incident? Can you tell the Committee about your unit, members of your unit and who was the Commander of your unit and to whom the Commander was reporting?

JUDGE MOTATA: Before you answer that question, where did you join the PAC? Where, in which town?

MR BALEKA: The Pan Africanist Congress, I joined it in Port Elizabeth in New Brighton area under Comrade Bonakele Filita.

JUDGE MOTATA: Do you remember the month when you joined the PACE here in Port Elizabeth?

MR BALEKA: If I'm not mistaken, it was the first month of the year, that is January in 1971.

JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you then, Mr Baleka, tell the Committee as I indicated about the structure of your unit, who was the Commander and to whom the Commander was reporting?

MR BALEKA: I was a Commander of my unit and it composed of six members and I was reporting to Comrade Mzukisi Nazo, that is his pseudonym and I found out later that he is Xhumiso Nongcuba, that is the person I was report to.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson if the Committee will remember, Xhumiso Nongcuba passed away in a car accident, I think it was 1996. He's the one who was involved in the St James incident, Heidelberg Tavern and also Golf Club. He has been mentioned in many of the APLA cases.

Can you then proceed about the composition of ...

MR BALEKA: Members - it was comrade Samora, his real name is Nyamesa Tengane, the one sitting next to me and there was also Comrade Ngruma, that is also his pseudonym, his real name is Joey Mshweshwe and Comrade Tongongara, his real name is Stanley Mtetejana and there was also Comrade Gadafe, his real name is Waga Gebengana, Comrade Mabutwa, those were members of my unit and I was the Commander of that unit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell about your target? How did you come to the conclusion that Nedbank is the target and who came up with the idea and how it was planned that the mission would be carried out.

MR BALEKA:

MR MBANDAZAYO: How were you arrested finally?

MR BALEKA:

MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened to the other members of the unit?

MR BALEKA: When I was there, I heard that these comrades that were with me, that were also members of this unit, they passed away, but they died in different places due to different reasons, so I am not really sure of what happened. I heard that some of them were shot etc, but I heard that they died.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant, Chairperson and Honourable Members.

CHAIRPERSON: Cross-examination?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Baleka you've indicated in your evidence that you joined the PAC, more specifically the P.E. branch in New Brighton in January 1971, is that correct?

MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: On page 126 of the bundle, there is a letter written by Vuamisa, do you know about it? Do you know him? 126.

MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct, I know him.

MS THABETHE: Does he know you personally? Have you ever dealt with him?

MR BALEKA: He is the Regional Chairman of the Pan Africanist Congress.

MS THABETHE: Does he know you?

MR BALEKA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Does he know you very well, would you say?

MR BALEKA; Yes, I can say he knows me very well.

MS THABETHE: Can you explain then why in this letter he says both you and Mr Ndingane have been attacked to the New Brighton Branch since 1990, not in 1971 as you have indicated?

MR BALEKA: The organisation, the PAC, was banned at that time and political organisations were "unbanned" in 1990, so I'm sure he wrote this in that sense.

MS THABETHE: No, my question is, wouldn't he know that you started being a member, you've been a member since 1971, as a person who knows you very well?

MR BALEKA: As I've already said, yes, I joined in 1971. The organisation at the time was banned and as he also states, that I'm a member of the PAC under the Chairmanship of the PE branch since 1990. The organisations at the time were banned. Maybe he is the one who can explain it better why he put it this way, otherwise Comrade Filita is the person who recruited me to join the PAC.

MS THABETHE: I won't take this issue any further, I'll move on. I've realised from your record of previous convictions that you've committed quite a number of robberies and thefts and would it be appropriate for me to say that you have quite an extensive experience with regard to robberies, looking at your previous convictions? Would it be appropriate for me to say so? For the record, a copy of the previous convictions is on page 54 of the bundle.

MR BALEKA: I cannot dispute that. As I have said here before that I do have some previous records. I used to work as a courier. The organisation was banned. Yes, there are some other things that I was involved in though the organisation itself was guiding me when it comes to discipline and the rules of the organisation, but to further the objectives of my organisation because we did not have money, I had to help myself too in order to be able to do what I am instructed to do.

JUDGE MILLER: Are you suggesting that all these crimes you did was because you were a member of the PAC? Is that what you're suggesting?

MR BALEKA: No.

JUDGE MILLER: Well what are you suggesting then?

MR BALEKA: As I said Chairperson, some of the offences here I would do some other things that were not related to the organisation.

JUDGE MILLER: I couldn't understand your answer. You said that because the PAC didn't have any money, you had to do these crimes to help yourself. You seem to link the doing of these crimes here to you being a member of the PAC and yet when one looks at these crimes, most of them are little petty type crimes, snatching bags, pinching a jacket from a shop worth R6-50, taking handbags, that sort of thing. Theft of R6, theft, grabbed out of somebody's hand R4. Are you saying you did that because you weren't getting money from the PAC?

MR BALEKA: Chairperson as I've explained before that some of the crimes were not related to the organisation. Yes, the PAC had given me a mandate but because of the conditions that we were living under, unemployment rate was high and I also had to do something, do things that I was requested to do by the organisation, but that doesn't mean that I was instructed to do that. I would do those for personal reasons.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, because you gave the impression that you seemed to link up your joining of the PAC to the dates that your previous convictions start in 1971. You mention that you were a courier and that because the PAC didn't have money, you had to do these, now you say you're doing them for your own benefit. Ms Thabethe.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure if I understand precisely what you're saying. I have the same problem as my colleague here. Is the position that you didn't have any other job? You worked as a courier for the PAC, but you had no employment, no source of income?

MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The PAC couldn't afford to pay you, so you stole money to keep going on, or you stole goods to sell so you could keep existing?

MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you never have employment?

MR BALEKA: The reason for me to be unemployed, it was during the times of unrest and at my home we had a cafe, a shop, that is the reason for me to be unemployed. I never worked.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Baleka, I'm just trying to understand something here and I hope you'll assist me. in 1971, okay you were born in 1956, correct?

MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: So in 1971 you would have been 15 years old, correct?

MR BALEKA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: 16?

CHAIRPERSON: If it's arithmetic, ja it depends on what time of the year, but 1956 - he said he joined in the January, it's 15.

MS THABETHE: Approximately 15/16 years. And your first previous conviction in these records is in 1971 in March. Now, my question is, I'm having difficulties trying to understand the political context of the robbery you committed in 1994. When I have sight of so many previous convictions that you've had, some of them which are robberies and my question to you is, first of all the PAC office seems to be suggesting that you were a member since 1990, you are suggesting that you have been a member since 1971 and since you have such experience in criminal activities, to put it plainly, how does one know that this robbery wasn't part of your criminal activities that you have been engaged in before? What makes this robbery different from the other criminal activities you've been performing? Can you respond to that?

MR BALEKA: First of all, this could set an example that the organisation had sent a legal representative to stand for me here during this amnesty application after applying because I knew that the organisation is fully aware of this operation that the incident was politically motivated and they also said that I would get guidance from time to time from the organisation though I would be involved in my own personal activities in crime because of the conditions that we were living under but with this case the organisation is fully aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Looking at the previous convictions, they bear no relationship whatsoever to the present offence, do they? The robbery is a robbery of R10.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, if I may respond. It doesn't - it's not similar to the offence in question but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: They're all petty theft.

MS THABETHE: But Mr Chair, the applicant does have experience in thefts.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: You say what's the difference? I say there's a vast difference between theft of a pair of shoes worth R30 and setting up a robbery of a bank with six armed people.

MS THABETHE: But Mr Chair, I was going to argue that even if the offences can be different, the fact remains it's criminal activities and the applicant was involved in a number of criminal activities, petty as they are. It doesn't remove the fact that they are criminal activities.

Which is my question, how would we know this one is not a criminal activity as the other ones, petty as they are?

JUDGE MILLER: Any further questions? I think he answered by saying he's had the organisation appointing a lawyer for him and they know about it.

MS THABETHE: Just to respond, Mr Baleka, in as much as there is a lawyer who is representing you, there have been other cases where people have claimed to be acting on behalf of the PAC and they haven't and they were still represented by the same lawyer. Secondly with regard to the fact that you are saying the PAC knows about this operation, that's not true. They know, they have confirmed that you were a member, but they have not confirmed the operation. Do you want to respond or can I move on?

MR BALEKA: Who are those people who are saying that they are not aware about this, of this operation, because I still maintain that the organisation is fully aware of this operation.

MS THABETHE: First of all, just to refresh your memory Mr Baleka, all the people who were involved in this operation are unfortunately deceased, so we couldn't ask them anything to confirm your incident. Mzukisi Nazo is also deceased and we couldn't ask him anything. We asked your office as a result and this is the letter we got, which does not confirm the operation you were involved in. Do you want to respond?

MR BALEKA; First of all, if these unit members, the fact that these unit members are not present, it's not for my own doing, but what I am saying is that the operation itself is known by the organisation and I was instructed by my Commander and the fact that Mzukisi Nazo is no more, this is not because of my own doing. I received instructions for the operation.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

JUDGE MILLER: You say, page twenty-eight, that Comrade Joey was shot dead in an operation in 1996. Stanley was also shot dead in 1995, Mabutwa was killed in an operation in Uitenhage at Pick 'n Pay in 1996, is that correct?

MR BALEKA: Yes, Chairperson, that's what I heard that about the dates.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but you're talking about them being shot in operations. What are those, PAC/APLA operations?

Why do you use the word operations here?

MR BALEKA: That is the information that I heard and at that time we had a new government, there was no reason for people to continue the operations.

JUDGE MILLER: That's why I want to know, why do you use the word "operations" here? It's your statement.

MR BALEKA: It's because we were so used to using this terminology.

JUDGE MILLER: When did APLA cease it's armed conflict? Was it not before the 21st of January 1994?

MR BALEKA: That is correct, Chairperson.

JUDGE MILLER: So now you're saying that you got an order from your Commander in P E to conduct an operation the same week, or within a week after APLA had ceased it's operations? Was he flagrantly ignoring the national, the whole organisation, for you to carry out an operation so shortly after the stopping of the participation in the armed conflict?

MR BALEKA: Chairperson, I always depended on an order. I have to execute the order, I cannot complain.

JUDGE MILLER: You see, one could understand it if you were a unit stuck out somewhere and there was a lack of communication, but here you are in Port Elizabeth, one of the strongholds of the organisation, with a noted Commander and you say he gives an order for you to conduct an operation after the cease fire, after the ceasing of the conflict and then when you report back to him, he says don't worry, he's going to give you further instructions in the future. Why should he do that when APLA had ceased to operate?

CHAIRPERSON: When did they cease to operate?

JUDGE MILLER: 14th of February.

MR BALEKA: Chairperson, I just followed an order because I was given a mandate to go and reconnoitre since 1993 and I was told on the very first week of January ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: Yes. No you've told us the history of it, but you said also that Nazo came on the 20th of January the night before and gave you the guns and said go ahead and do this.

MR BALEKA: I was just given an order Chairperson and I executed the operation. I knew nothing about the cease of the arms struggle. I was just given the order. The operation that was already prepared the previous year in November.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you ever hear that there was a ceasefire?

MR BALEKA: No, I only got that information after some time.

JUDGE MILLER: After you were arrested? After your arrest?

MR BALEKA: After that operation Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes. So you're saying that everybody involved in the operation, your Commander, all you other comrades save for you and your co-applicant, they're all now deceased?

MR BALEKA: Yes, that's what I heard Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Michael Kashimba?

MR BALEKA: He is the comrade who is running the affairs of the organisation in Port Elizabeth branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he still there?

MR BALEKA: I never heard anything about his death, but I hope that he is still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I see in your letter that you've been referred to, or your answer to requests, you say that he will confirm your membership and that you committed the offence to further the political objectives of the party.

MR BALEKA: I said so, Chairperson, since I thought that he was in the leadership.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also referred to someone Sepo Kundo.

MR BALEKA: That is correct, Chairperson. When I was referring to Sepo Kundo, it is when the Amnesty Committee wanted to get information about Mzukisi Nazo, my Commander. I made mention of Sepo Kundo, the one that you're talking about because of the fact that I wanted to contact the Amnesty Office concerning that because I wanted to say Kuma, instead of Kundo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It's one o'clock now, should we take the adjournment now?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, we can take it now.

CHAIRPERSON: Quarter to two.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm calling the second applicant Myamezele Ndingane. May he be sworn in Chairperson? He is Xhosa speaking.

MYAMEZELE NDINGANE: (sworn states)

JUDGE MILLER: Before you proceed Mr Mbandazayo, if you take a look at page 32, there's just the spelling of the name, I see on the application form it's D-I-N-G-A-N-I, but this letter is signed Ndingane, N-D-I-N-G-A-N-E, what is the correct spelling of the name?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, the correct one is the one signed by the applicant.

JUDGE MILLER: Ndingane.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Ndingane.

JUDGE MILLER: Not Dingane.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Ndingane, you have heard the evidence of Mr Baleka. Do you confirm his evidence in as far as it relates to you?

MR NDINGANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you also want this evidence to be incorporated to your evidence, be part of your evidence before the Commission?

MR NDINGANE: Yes, I would like his evidence to be incorporated to my evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Ndingane, just for the record, can you tell the Committee when did you join PAC and how?

MR NDINGANE: When I was growing up I became a member of Azanu because the PAC was a banned organisation. That was in 1984.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you at any stage join APLA?

MR NDINGANE: Yes, I joined APLA in 1993.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you join?

MR NDINGANE: I joined in the Transkei in a place called Tafelofef.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was your Commander there?

MR NDINGANE: My Commander was Tembani Barrie.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Ndingane, can you tell the Committee your role, especially when you were inside the bank? Mr Baleka has already told the Committee about the planning and everything. What was your role in the bank on the 21st of January? What role did you play when you were inside the bank?

MR NDINGANE: The role that I played in the bank, we told that white lady to open there and then I collected money in the bank.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you manage to get any money?

MR NDINGANE: No, we did not manage to get any money.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, when you say you collected money, did you actually reach the stage where you took hold of money and put it in these post office bags?

MR NDINGANE: Yes, we did that.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you get the money from where the tellers work or from the safe or the vault, or what?

MR NDINGANE: We told her to open the safes that were under the counters, two of those safes. When we were about to go to the said safe, Gadafe then told us that the enemy was coming.

JUDGE MILLER: You don't know how much money you took, but was there a lot of money that you put in the bags?

MR NDINGANE: Yes, it was a lot of money because I was the one who was taking it out of the two safes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. And then, what happened? Did you leave the bags behind when you heard that the enemy is in sight?

MR NDINGANE: When we heard that the enemy was outside, I looked outside and I saw the enemy. When I saw the enemy, one of them looked inside but he could not see inside and one of them was trying to open the bank door, but the door was locked. Two of these policemen went to the van. One of them took a radio out of that police van, he was talking to that radio. Nongcuba as a Commander inside, gave us an order to leave everything there because as the police were busy on the radio, they were calling for reinforcement, that is the reason why we left the money behind.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Lastly Mr Ndingane, can you tell the Committee about your previous convictions?

MR NDINGANE: I was arrested in 1987. As we know, in 1987 there was violence. We were trying to overthrow the white government, those that were oppressing the people of Azania. I was a victim of that government. I was arrested in connection with a car theft. We were using that car, operating with that car, so the government charged me, but we did not mention the fact that we were working underground, that is why I'm a criminal today. I was arrested in connection with that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: About your second conviction.

MR NDINGANE: My second conviction, I was arrested in kwaZakhele, we were destroying white people's property. In kwaZakhele there were those game machines that school kids use to play with and those machines were put there by the white people, so we were trying to destroy everything that was owned by the white people, so as we were destroying those machines, there was one person who knew me there and he told the white people and they charged me and I was sentenced for five years in connection with that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant at this stage, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MS THABETHE: Just one, Mr Chair, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Ndingane, what would your response be to the question that how do we know that this operation is not part of criminal activities, but it's political? What would your response be?

MR NDINGANE: As my Commander has already explained here, that I was one of the people that were involved in this operation and as I've already mentioned, I'm an APLA soldier. I was obeying an order, so you can see that I'm a soldier and I was obeying an order. When you are a soldier, you don't have to argue, you just have to follow and obey an order.

MS THABETHE: No further questions, Mr Chair. Thank you.

JUDGE MOTATA: Just one. Looking at page 59, Mr Ndingane, it would appear the second charge is armed robbery where a firearm was used and R4 000 was taken.

MR NDINGANE: I will answer your question, Chairperson. The Government that was ruling this country, was trying by all means to charge you with something that you did not do, because they say that I had a firearm, but I was not arrested having a firearm. Even in this case I was charged and the Government of the day could create a story because the police were furthering the interests of the white people, they were not furthering the interests of the people. That is my answer Sir.

JUDGE MOTATA: Did you hear in Court that you were using a firearm to commit a robbery?

MR NDINGANE: Which robbery? The one we're talking about now?

JUDGE MOTATA: The one in 1989.

MR NDINGANE: I heard that and I dispute that but they did not care about my argument because I was a black person.

JUDGE MOTATA: Did you take money?

MR NDINGANE: I did not take money there, we just destroyed those machines, those game machines.

JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson. Thank you Mr Ndingane.

JUDGE MILLER: When were you arrested for this robbery, the failed robbery in Uitenhage?

MR NDINGANE: I cannot remember the date, but it was in 1994, between March and April, I cannot remember the date.

JUDGE MILLER: Can you remember who you committed this robbery with? You had the first applicant, Mr Baleka, who else?

MR NDINGANE: Yes, I still remember very well Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: Who were they?

MR NDINGANE: It was Mr Ngruma, his name was Joey Mshweshwe, Tongongara, his name was Stanley Mtetejana, it was Mabutwa, it was Gadafe and his real name was Waga.

JUDGE MILLER: And do you know where these people are today, or if they're still alive?

MR NDINGANE: We tried to investigate and what I found out from the Comrades that were fighting in this country, I heard that they died or they passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear when they died?

MR NDINGANE: No, I did not hear.

JUDGE MILLER: Do you know whether the APLA called a cease fire?

MR NDINGANE: I did not hear about that before the operation.

JUDGE MILLER: When did you hear about it?

MR NDINGANE: I heard about it after the operation.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes. When?

MR NDINGANE: I think it was February or March.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you ever receive any training?

MR NDINGANE: Yes.

JUDGE MILLER: Where and when?

MR NDINGANE: In 1993 in Tafelofef and ...(indistinct)

JUDGE MILLER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, just one question. On page 32 again, this is the letter you wrote to the Commission, you say and I quote:

Did you hear that they were killed while performing other operations?

MR NDINGANE: What happened, yes, I'm the one who wrote the statement, so what happened is, we normally use this word "operation". As I have already said before the Panel, my comrades that were fighting with me died, so what I wrote here is what I heard, that is why I wrote this way, because I heard this when I was in prison.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but if somebody is walking down the street going to the shop to buy a newspaper and gets shot in the head and gets killed, is that dying in an operation?

MR NDINGANE: As I have already mentioned, Chairperson, this word "operation", as a trained person it is on my mind as a soldier, that is why maybe I made a mistake and wrote operation here.

JUDGE MILLER: And you don't know the circumstances in which they were killed, yet you say they were killed in operations, because of your military training, you're so used to using the word operation, is that what you're trying to tell me now?

MR NDINGANE: I don't know how they died, I only heard that they died, so what I wrote here is the information that I heard.

JUDGE MILLER: So why did you assume they had died in operations? Is it not because you thought that they - you were just trying to stress the point that you were comrades in APLA because there wouldn't have been any operations when you were in prison.

MR NDINGANE: I agree with you, Sir, because at the time I was arrested, there were democratic elections and a new government was elected, the Government that I was fighting for, so I don't think they were involved in political activities.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, you see because somebody in reading this gets the impression that you've got no idea about APLA and its operations, if you talk about them getting killed in operations after your arrest and that you're just making it up. That's the impression that one gets when one reads this, saying that my comrades were killed in later operations in 1996 and 1995 and things like that. It's an indication that you've got no idea about APLA or how they operated or when they stopped to operate.

MR NDINGANE: Chairperson, one other thing is that as we are in prison we are affected on our minds and as we are there, we did not go there because we wanted to, so other things, you would say things that you did not mean to say because of the pressure, so what I'm trying to say is that maybe I made a mistake to mention this because in 1994 there were democratic elections and a new government that we were fighting for was elected, so maybe here I made a mistake because there is nobody who does not make mistakes, anybody can make a mistake.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes and you and Mr Baleka made exactly the same mistake.

MR NDINGANE: What I would like the Committee to note is that this is my comrade, what he does, I also do that. We would take the applications and read our applications together, that is why we made the same mistake because we are here concerning the same incident. If it was a different - if these were different incidents, that would be another case, so we are here concerning the same incident, so that is why we made the same mistake and we are under pressure there because as we are here today, we were fighting for the freedom, but we are still in prison, that is one other thing that is affecting us.

What I would like to say before this Committee, I was supposed to appear before this Commission, I don't even remember in which year. I waited for a year to come here. I was given a date by the Amnesty Committee and I was waiting for a year and some months before appearing here and I would like the Panel to note that in prison we are under a lot of terrible pressure. We people that were fighting for this country, we are still in prison and as I am sitting here today, there are my comrades that are still in prison and they are regarded as criminals, but they were my comrades, I was fighting with them in this country, for this country.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything further?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I just wish to call only one person after the applicant, regarding.

CHAIRPERSON: Turn off the applicant's machine in the meantime.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I just wish to call Mr Filita just to confirm, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Can he, Chairperson, be sworn in, Mr Filita, Bonakele Filita?

SAMUEL BONAKELE FILITA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Filita, am I correct to say you are a member of PAC?

MR FILITA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you join PAC?

MR FILITA: 1960.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you join PAC in 1960?

MR FILITA: In Port Elizabeth.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Filita, can you tell the Committee what was your role within PAC?

MR FILITA: My role in PAC, or I joined PAC in 1960 and in 1962 I was a Deputy of the Commander of the Eastern Cape. After that I joined APLA. After 1994 I was the Head of Security up to now.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr filita, let me take you back. Am I correct to say that the incident that happened at Vugu Scrap Yard in 1991, ...(indistinct) to your premises.

MR FILITA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about the incident at Vugu Scrap Yard?

MR FILITA: I found two APLA soldiers in 1990, they were operating inside until January whereby information leaked and the police found them in my premises. They were then shot, two of them were shot at and they died.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say one of them was Jabu Mdunge?

MR FILITA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Filita, Mr Baleka testified before this Commission that he was recruited by yourself to the PAC.

MR FILITA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what was the role that was played by Mr Baleka?

MR FILITA: As we were operating, Mr Baleka joined PAC and he was a member of my branch. Later on I met with him and he was a courier. If I still remember well, because this happened a long time ago and I was also from prison, so maybe I cannot remember every detail like dates, but Baleka was a member of the PAC and after that he joined APLA and he was working as a courier. I then heard that he was arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, do you know about the incident in which he was arrested and how did you know about it?

MR FILITA: No, I do not know about this incident. What I heard, I heard from their Commander Nongcuba, after this incident. He told me that they were in prison, that is when I heard about this incident. Otherwise, I don't know when it happened or how it happened.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did Nongcuba confirm too that it was an APLA operation?

MR FiLITA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE MOTATA: Just one question Mr Filita. Nongcuba, what did he say to you, what had he commanded them to do and what were the proceeds thereof going to be utilised for?

MR FILITA: He did not give me those details, he just told me that his unit was arrested doing an operation. We all know why they were there, so there was no need for him to give me details.

JUDGE MOTATA: What do you mean that all of them were there, details were not necessary? What do you mean by that?

MR FILITA: What I mean is, I knew those people, all of those people that were arrested concerning that operation, so when Nongcuba told me that his unit was arrested, so I knew.

JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you that the whole unit was arrested?

MR FILITA: No, he did not say how many were arrested but he only said that his unit was arrested.

JUDGE MILLER: Because we know that his unit wasn't arrested, not all of them.

MR FILITA: He might just say that something has happened to him, that the operation was not successful.

JUDGE MILLER: Because we also know that they were arrested some time after the incident.

MR FILITA: Yes, I also heard some time after the incident from Nongcuba. I did not hear from ...(indistinct) during those days of the incident.

JUDGE MILLER: When did APLA announce that it's ceasing the armed conflict?

MR FILITA: I do not know the exact date, but it was in January 1994, but people were confused, they were not satisfied when APLA suspended arms, so people did not know how we were going to be free, they were not satisfied, that is why some of them continued until 1995, because they did not accept that, or they were not satisfied.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but then if they were doing that, then it wouldn't be in furtherance of the objects of the organisation. It would be against the directives of the organisation, wouldn't it?

MR FILITA: Yes, that is correct, but there was nothing we can do as the leadership of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one thing I wanted to make quite clear, are you still head of security?

MR FILITA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that for APLA or the PAC?

MR FILITA: PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicants, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: No witnesses, Mr Chair.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, the applicants have testified before the Committee and they, in detail, described their role and how they conducted and how they executed in this incident and it's my submission that on the side of disclosure, they have made a full disclosure regarding their role they played in the incident. They went into details, elaborate details.

The second question is that whether the incident was politically motivated. Chairperson, with the exception of their previous convictions which may indicate that they have some criminal record against them which may impact on the incident itself, Chairperson unfortunately there have been incidents where APLA member of High Command testified that in some of the incidents they recruited people consciously aware that they are involved in criminal activity, because of their expertise, they found it difficult to use them, they find it easy to use them. They recruit them and give them political direction and use them because they could see that they have expertise.

Chairperson, there's nothing to gainsay that the two applicants were not acting on the day in question on behalf of APLA and that they were instructed by APLA. Chairperson Xhumiso Nongcuba is well-known to the members of the Committee, though unfortunately passed away. As I indicated when his name was mentioned, that he has been mentioned in many incidents and that he has participated in some of the incidents, especially the St James incident, the Golf Club incident and also gave an order to the Heidelberg Tavern incident. There are also of course some various incidents where he was actually involved and also gave an order. He was also a member of the High Command.

If one takes into account that it's accepted that Nongcuba was a member of the High Command of APLA and that he gave orders to the applicants to commit the said incident, it's my submission that the applicants have established a political motive for that particular incident and that Chairperson, also that it is clear that they did not do it for personal gain.

Chairperson it is also true that the incident happened on the 21st of January and the arms struggle was suspended on the 16th of January by the PAC. Chairperson, I know that the evidence has been led before the Committee and there are many incidents where applicants of APLA have applied. Some of the incidents happened in March. That of course, as Mr Filita testified that there was confusion at that time and that it was testified that it was difficult to disseminate the information and that in terms of their leadership and in terms of chain of Command, they have to wait for their Commanders to tell them that the arms struggle has been suspended.

JUDGE MILLER: One would have thought that Mr Nazo would have known, being a member of the High Command. I mean he wasn't one of the people who had to wait to be told, yet we hear that on the night of the 20th he's dishing out guns.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, exactly. I was coming to that point that Nongcuba was member of the High Command. Chairperson it is known that the confusion that ensued was because, in terms of the PAC Congress that took a resolution that the arms struggle be suspended when it's opportune. It gave leadership, it was in December 1993, it gave leadership mandate to suspend the arms struggle when it's opportune and it gave them specific instructions in terms of their resolution that it has to consult widely with the Commanders before that decision is taken and it has transpired that the leadership on its own took the decision without consulting them, that's where the confusion was created. It only consulted with the top echelons, with the Secretary of Defence and they suspended the arms struggle. It is thereafter that they consulted with them. That's where the confusion ensued, Chairperson.

Therefore Chairperson, it's my submission that it was not on the part of the combatants that they carried out after the suspension of the arms struggle, but because of the failure to communicate the decision to them, they had to carry on because their Commanders were still giving them orders to carry on.

Therefore, Chairperson, it's my submission that the applicants have met all the requirements of the Act and therefore they should be granted amnesty as applied, unless the Committee would like me to address on any other specific point.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee. In the light of Mr Bonakele Filita's evidence, I have no objection to amnesty being granted.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no objection?

MS THABETHE: I have no objection. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible - no microphone)

MS THABETHE: Indeed Mr Chair, it does.

CHAIRPERSON: There's only one matter left from the week's roll.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: One which you have no interest in. Well we'd like to thank you for your assistance to us during the hearings this week. Thank you. We will now adjourn till what time tomorrow?

MS THABETHE: Half past nine.

CHAIRPERSON: Have we told anybody? What time do they expect?

MS THABETHE: In the notifications it says 9 o'clock, but I would suggest half past nine.

CHAIRPERSON: Nine thirty tomorrow morning.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.