TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

CHAIRPERSON: ... we are commencing has been set down as the application of Prince Nkosinathi Shangase, Hlangbanani Msani and Phinda Kweyama. Things have however changed since the original set down and it has been agreed between the parties that we will proceed without the presence of - and we will not commence the hearing of Mr Msani, but that we have considered the matter and discussed it with the various parties concerned, that it appears from the papers before us that Shangase and Kweyama and Msani made applications for indemnity on the same day, that is the 22nd of August 1995. Surprisingly, from the papers before us it appears that a reply was sent to Mr Shangase, dated the 26th of July 1994. The reply to Mr Kweyama, which differs, was dated the 16th of November 1995 or the 30th of October 1995. It is clear from that reply that the applicant was told that his application was being kept over until the Act comes into operation, whereafter it will be submitted for possible consideration to the relevant Committee which will be appointed for this purpose (Committee on Amnesty).

From this it would appear that the applicants who made application for indemnity out of time, were told that their applications would be submitted to the Amnesty Committee and had reasonable grounds for believing so. We are however also told that the applicants all in fact made applications for amnesty and that this included Mr Shangase, Mr Kweyama and Mr Mkhize. In these circumstances we considered it only right that we should permit them to hand in written applications, which they say they have already submitted to the Committee, and that we should proceed with the hearing. We do not at this stage make any finding as to whether they are entitled to have their applications considered as valid applications for amnesty. We expect to hear further evidence during the course of the hearing as to when the applications were sent, how they were drawn up, matters of that nature, and also whether there is any record of them having been sent at the local prison. So we will proceed with the hearing on the basis of the three applications we have before us, which I have referred to.

I should perhaps have placed on record that I'm the Chairman of the Committee, my name is Andrew Wilson, and ask the various other participants to please place themselves on record so those who have to type out the record later can do so.

JUDGE POTGIETER: I am Denzil Potgieter, a Member of the Panel.

ADV SANDI: I am Nsikelelo Sandi, a Member of the Panel.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Mr Panday. May I just place on record that I am standing in for Adv Bedeson(?) who was originally briefed in this matter, and I represent the applicants pertaining to this matter.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair. My name is Thabile Thabethe, I'm the Evidence Leader for the TRC. May I also place it on record, Mr Chair, that the victims were notified in this matter and they indicated that they will not come to the hearing.

Further, Mr Chair, I'm looking at the time and may I request the Honourable Chair that we have lunch later on if possible, not at 1 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we have any problem, but I'm not responsible for the catering and I'm not sure what has been planned in that regard. I'd like to get my secretary's advice on that.

CHAIRPERSON: That lunch at 2 o'clock will be fine, so perhaps we can continue now.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I think the applicant needs to be sworn in.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Is it Mr Shangase? Can you give your full names for the record.

PRINCE NKOSINATHI SHANGASE: (sworn states)

JUDGE POTGIETER: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Panday?

EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Shangase, is it correct that you appear before this Committee, applying for amnesty in respect of the incident that took place on the 22nd of April 1993?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, that's true.

MR PANDAY: And that incident related to a robbery that was committed at a gun shop in Isipingo.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Is it also correct that for that particular incident you were convicted and received a sentence of six years in the Durban Regional Court?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, that's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Shangase, at the time did you belong to any political organisation?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I was a member of the African National Congress.

MR PANDAY: And were you a member of any other political organisation, prior to that or after that?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, before that I was the member of the United Democratic Front in my township kwaMakutha, from 1985.

MR PANDAY: 1985.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Right, carry on. When did you become a member of the ANC?

MR SHANGASE: Then when the ANC was unbanned, we then were able to have a full membership card and being a card-carrying member, but before it was unbanned we were just the followers, but falling under the organisation.

MR PANDAY: Right. Now in the ANC itself, what sort of role did you play? Firstly, were you a supporter or an office bearer or a member?

MR SHANGASE: Firstly I became - I was involved with cultural activities, being the one that was responsible for the culture in the township, meaning that in the township we had the ANC Youth which needed to participate in cultural activities like, for an example, poetry, like having cultural groups which was signing. Whenever there are functions of the organisation they have to participate. So I was in charge of them.

MR PANDAY: Right. Now you mention that you were in charge of cultural organisations or organising, now in the ANC itself when you received your membership number, were you just a member or you held a particular office besides being a member?

MR SHANGASE: I was a card-carrying member and having a membership number and I also was an organiser as well.

MR PANDAY: Okay. Now whilst in the ANC, did you hold any other positions or attend to any other sort of activities in the ANC?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I was also a Self-Defence Unit member.

MR PANDAY: And when did you become a Self-Defence Unit member in the ANC?

MR SHANGASE: I became a Self-Defence Unit member when I came back from exile.

MR PANDAY: Okay. And when did you go into exile?

MR SHANGASE: I went in exile in 1991, where I was in Zambia and Tanzania.

MR PANDAY: And what was your purpose of going into exile?

MR SHANGASE: The purpose of going into exile, besides the tense situation, violence, on-going political violence that was in my township, it was also to further my political knowledge and to gain military training, but under MK camps, because that was my organisation's military wing.

MR PANDAY: Now when you were in Zambia and Tanzania, do you recall who trained you?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, it was Commander Gorbachev who was in charge of the camp and Commissar Sherwood.

MR PANDAY: And do you know which camps they were in, Tanzania or Zambia?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, it was in Charleston. That camp was in Charleston which I got the training there.

MR PANDAY: Right. And when did you return?

MR SHANGASE: I returned late '91, because I left the country earlier but even though I can't recall the month, but I came back through repatriation process.

MR PANDAY: And when you returned to the country, did you go back to your area?

MR SHANGASE: Firstly we were kept in Hillbrow at Safari Hotel, which is in Johannesburg, and then from there I came back. I stayed in hiding because I needed to get the whole situation about what is going on inside the township. Then by that time I was at Umlazi, then from there after two weeks I went back home to the township.

MR PANDAY: Now when you talk about the township, are you referring to kwaMakutha?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, kwaMakutha.

MR PANDAY: Now just before we go on, you mentioned when you returned you came to back into hiding, was there any - do you recall the place that you went into hiding?

MR SHANGASE: It was at Umlazi township, V-Section.

MR PANDAY: Now after returning to kwaMakutha, did you have to report to any person that was senior to you in rank?

MR SHANGASE: Ja, I reported to the Chairperson of my branch, which was Comrade Sandile Sithole.

MR PANDAY: And is Comrade Sandile Sithole still alive today?

MR SHANGASE: Comrade Sandile Sithole is still alive.

MR PANDAY: And do you have any idea where he can be located?

MR SHANGASE: Presently I'm not sure whether he is still where he told me is, because he's busy studying at the moment. He's at Mpumalanga, but I'm not sure of the exact place where he is in Mpumalanga.

MR PANDAY: Now after having met Comrade Sithole, what became of your position in kwaMakutha thereafter?

MR SHANGASE: Basically after I reported to him I had to go underground fulfilling the Self-Defence Unit missions which were fully underground missions.

MR PANDAY: And did you report to Comrade Sithole or there was somebody else in charge or your Self-Defence Unit?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, my Unit Commander which was Sipho Mgadi, he was in charge of the Self-Defence Unit, so when it came to underground activities he was the one that I was going to report to, because Mr Sithole was just a civilian even though he was just the Chairperson of the branch ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us that name again.

MR SHANGASE: Sorry Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us that name again?

MR SHANGASE: Unit Commander, it was Sipho Mgadi.

MR PANDAY: Once you ...(indistinct) to Commander Sipho Mgadi, thereafter you took all instructions and orders from him, would that be correct?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, it all came from him.

MR PANDAY: Right. Now when you returned to kwaMakutha and after having been placed into contact with Sipho Mgadi, were you briefed as to the situation in kwaMakutha?

MR SHANGASE: Definitely they did because they needed to equip me with what was the environment at that time and so I needed to know what was going on, according to the way we used to continue as underground people.

MR PANDAY: Now could you explain to the Commission as to what was the situation in kwaMakutha at the time.

MR SHANGASE: The situation was very, very unbearable because the political violence by that time was also more tense, we were facing our foes, which were the IFP, the KwaZulu Police Force, the KwaZulu Police killing squad as well as the third force.

MR PANDAY: And was the - you mentioned you were facing your foes regularly, now what sort of attacks, or were there physical attacks being made against the people of kwaMakutha?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, of course there was because people were brutally murdered just because for being the members of the ANC. Okay, we then also were faced with the situation where people's houses were burned down, they never had shelters, our mothers and fathers were the victims of the violence, so we had to sacrifice as the members of the ANC. As well as they were also the ANC community based members, so we had to have some alternatives to face such harsh and brutal circumstances.

MR PANDAY: And what other sorts of attacks did you experience besides the murders and the burning of the houses?

MR SHANGASE: People were attacked and stabbed, children were killed and parents whilst they were at the bus stations, for an example, going to work. You send a child to a shop, a child was also being stabbed. Even though he or she was 10 years old, he would suffer the consequences because he is known to the enemies that no, this child belongs to an area where the ANC is dominant.

MR PANDAY: Now the kwaMakutha area, is it predominantly an ANC stronghold, or was it a split stronghold?

MR SHANGASE: That is an ANC stronghold township, but we do have some areas, a few, there were very, very few areas that were being occupied by an IFP.

MR PANDAY: And now the area that you lived in or the area that you were designated to protect, what was that area in kwaMakutha called?

MR SHANGASE: It was mostly - 60% was ANC and then 40% was IFP, but the arrival of the KwaZulu Police Force made the percentage to be more high because they were assisting the IFP.

MR PANDAY: And did the area in kwaMakutha where - does that have a specific name to be called? Whether there's a section that it's divided into, or was it just called kwaMakutha?

MR SHANGASE: Can you please come again, Sir.

MR PANDAY: The township that you lived in, the kwaMakutha township, that township you mentioned was divided between ANC and IFP.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now the township that was divided, did that have a specific section, was it called by a specific section?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, there were specific sections where the ANC was and there were specific sections where we knew that this place IFP belongs there and it is dominated by them.

MR PANDAY: And did those sections have any formal designation?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, because they were separated by numbers, like there is Section 11 and you know that 11-Section it's an IFP stronghold, 10, like for example, Section 1 and 16 and 23, those areas were also ANC dominated areas.

MR PANDAY: Now after having experienced all these problems that were going on in the ANC sections, were there any meetings being held to discuss these problems?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, definitely there were meetings which were held by us as a unit, besides the ones which were held by the community, but we as a Defence Unit saw the matter and felt the need of sitting down and discussing the matter and come with some other alternatives that we can - options we can have in order to face the situation, because our defenceless people were being brutally murdered without any ...(indistinct) crime.

MR PANDAY: Now you mention that ...(indistinct) defenceless, the attacks that were being launched against you, was it physical attacks as in person on person or were there weapons being used?

MR SHANGASE: They were attacking us with firearms, live rounds and all that and then sometimes they used to attack us in the night vigils, in meetings, but also it was also individually based because if you walk alone they can kill you.

MR PANDAY: Now you mention that meetings were held to discuss the situation, now in relation to the incident that you have been sentenced for, or that you had served a sentence for, was there any specific meeting held to ...(intervention)

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we had a - there was a specific meeting that was held which was early in April, so that is where it all came out that we came up with the decision that no, the only alternative that we've got was to go and rob the gun shop in order to have the firearms and to face the enemy. Because we were unarmed and like, for an example, if I could say it, it was very, very difficult because you find somebody who is a civilian but only because he was an IFP member, the KwaZulu Police Force never doubted to give them R1s which were the government property and which was belonging to the Police Force, not to the civilians. So that was very, very unbearable.

MR PANDAY: Now you mentioned that a meeting was taken and you all decided to rob the gun shop in Isipingo.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now could you go into detail as to, from the time this meeting took place, what were the events that transpired up until the robbing of the gun shop. Do you understand my question?

MR SHANGASE: Starting from the day we had a meeting?

MR PANDAY: From the day you all sat in the meeting and decided that you need to protect ...

MR SHANGASE: On the day of the meeting our Unit Commander, Sipho Mgadi, he gathered us as a unit and then he told us as the Commander, because he was the one who was supposed to give us orders and detail us, that are we aware what is going on inside the township and we do know that we are the Self-Defence Unit in the township and then he asked us all what thing we can do in order to get the firearms and face the situation.

We then therefore tried to look up on some other kinds of means, but gun shop was the only option that we had. And then from there he then decided, because he was the one in charge, to detail each and every one of us to have some certain posts that we were to hold that day. Like for instance, I was detailed to go for reconnaissance before we go and rob the gun shop, and that reconnaissance took about two weeks and then from there he then said to us this and that mission was going only to need five people.

So then he then detailed each and every one of us, like for an example, besides that thing of being in charge of the reconnaissance I was also detailed that on the day of the robbery I was going to be on a covering group, which is like being a lookout and then Mr Kweyama was detailed as the driver and then Mr Mkhize was then detailed with the other two that I've also mentioned before, to go inside the gun shop and get the guns. But the Unit Commander wasn't there on the day of the mission.

MR PANDAY: Now at your meeting when you decided your alternatives into acquiring weapons, how did it come about that the Isipingo gun shop became the chosen place of obtaining weapons? Who suggested it?

MR SHANGASE: The Unit Commander, as he was in charge of the unit he was the one who was going around looking around and then he knew that there was a gun shop somewhere at Isipingo, because for example, he couldn't go to a very far place because we needed to get them in a very close place to our township for other also security reasons. So that's how it came about that Isipingo gun shop was targeted to be the place to get the weapons, and it is very, very close to our township.

MR PANDAY: And at this meeting that took place, can you recall how many persons were present at this meeting?

MR SHANGASE: Seven.

MR PANDAY: Seven including the four of you or excluding?

MR SHANGASE: Including the four of us.

MR PANDAY: Approximately seven. And once you were detailed with your duties you'd travel there by vehicle I assume.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And did you obtain the vehicle?

MR SHANGASE: We obtained the vehicle because one of our unit members who is not here, Mr Hlangbanani Msani, he was the one who was detailed to go and see to it that we do get a transport to go and get the firearms at the gun shop. He also wasn't there on the day of the robbery, he only was detailed to get a car.

MR PANDAY: And do you know how he was able to obtain this motor vehicle?

MR SHANGASE: Ja, the car was highjacked at Isipingo.

MR PANDAY: And what vehicle was it?

MR SHANGASE: It was a Ford Sierra.

MR PANDAY: And after having the motor vehicle highjacked, was it handed personally to you or to a person in your group?

MR SHANGASE: He was detailed by the Unit Commander, so he then took it back to the Unit Commander because the Unit Commander knew where the car was to be kept, because it was between him and the Unit Commander.

MR PANDAY: Okay. And how were you able to get possession of this motor vehicle?

MR SHANGASE: On the day of the mission on our GP, on our gathering point, the driver which is Mr Kweyama, came up with the car because the Unit Commander was the one who also told him where the car was kept on the day of the mission.

MR PANDAY: Now on the day in question when you landed at the Isipingo gun shop, can you explain what took place on that particular day, insofar as the robbery is concerned.

MR SHANGASE: At the gun shop. Okay, we came around about half past seven in the morning, because I was doing the reconnaissance I observed that the gun shop was always open round about twenty to eight in the morning, so then we needed to be ten or five minutes earlier. So when the gun shop employee came there we were already there. He opened up the gun shop. We then started to approach the gun shop, but Mr Kweyama was left in the car.

MR PANDAY: For what reason was he left behind in the car?

MR SHANGASE: Because we needed to make it a point that if ever something happens and we need to have a getaway, so we had to have somebody in the car.

And then from there I was outside the gun shop because next to the gun shop there was a motor spares and there was a surgery and a tea-room if I may recall well. And then whilst I went that other side of the gun shop, the other three got inside the gun shop. I was carrying a pistol and the other three were carrying the pistols and the one handgrenade, F1.

MR PANDAY: When you say the other three were carrying the pistols and the handgrenade, can you specifically say the three you refer to is the three that went inside, or Kweyama and two others? Can you specifically relate as to which three you're talking about?

MR SHANGASE: It was me, Mr Mkhize and Mbongeni was having a pistol, but Mr Linda was having an F1 grenade.

MR PANDAY: Now in the gun shop, Mkhize went in, Mbongeni went in and Linda.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And do you know what transpired whilst they were in the gun shop?

MR SHANGASE: Meaning actually do I know what happened inside?

MR PANDAY: Ja.

MR SHANGASE: They went inside, they pointed the employee there with a pistol and the F1 handgrenade. Surely and definitely they never assaulted him. And then whilst they were pointing him with guns they ordered him to give them the key and open up the safe there where the guns were kept and then after, Mr Mkhize was the one who loaded the guns in the bag.

MR PANDAY: Now do you know how many weapons were taken from this gun shop?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, it was eleven pistols and five magazines, because those were the ones which were available there.

MR PANDAY: Now after the robbery was completed, what did you all do?

MR SHANGASE: We got into the getaway car, we went back to the township, but on our way to the township we met up with a roadblock, but we did manage to escape the roadblock. Then when we arrived in the township we went to the place where we were supposed to go ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: Well what was that? You need to be specific when you say you went to the place.

MR SHANGASE: In kwaMakutha.

MR PANDAY: Ja, do you know the place in kwaMakutha? What was it called?

MR SHANGASE: I mean it was the section at Section 6. That's where we went to. And then when we arrived there we opened up the bag, the five of us, and then we counted the guns and the magazines that we got and then it was eleven and five ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: And what did you do with the guns and the magazines, after having counted them?

MR SHANGASE: They were given to one of the unit members who was in charge of the delta base where the arms were kept - were to be kept.

MR PANDAY: And what was the unit member's name?

MR SHANGASE: It was Mfanafigele Mkhize, the brother to Moses.

MR PANDAY: Now I want you to explain properly. You originally went there to rob the place because you were in need of firearms, but now in your evidence you state that you were also armed.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now that creates a bit of confusion when you say you were defenceless, but yet you went there with arms. Can you explain how these arms came about?

MR SHANGASE: Ja concerning that matter, it is true that we were armed when we go there - when we went there, so but the thing is that the Unit Commander was the one who organised those pistols that we had on the day of the robbery, but he borrowed them from somebody whom I'm not aware of his name or who he is, but he wasn't inside the township, the way he stated to us. So because he needed to borrow them in order for us to have a successful mission and then he had to take them back to where he got them. But no-one knew by that time where he really did get the guns.

MR PANDAY: Now after having left the arms that you had stolen with the brother of Moses, what did you do thereafter?

MR SHANGASE: We went back to our homes.

MR PANDAY: And the weapons, how did it reach the Unit Commander that needed it to be returned?

MR SHANGASE: Like for instance - sorry, please come again, how did he ...?

MR PANDAY: You see you mentioned the Unit Commander borrowed weapons for you all to complete your mission successfully, now after having completed your mission successfully, the weapons that you borrowed, did you all meet him subsequently or after that to return the weapons?

MR SHANGASE: Ja, we gave those pistols to the one who was in charge of the delta base, that is where those arms were to be kept, the one who was in charge of the delta base, and then it was between him and the Commander, how the Commander was going to take back those pistols and where was he going to take them to. And then we then had to leave it all to him, but because it was the Commander who knew where he got them.

MR PANDAY: Now of the weapons that you all had stolen, the ones that you took from the gun shop, did you all keep any for yourselves or was everything handed to the person in charge?

MR SHANGASE: Ja, like there were three, the one was kept by me, the other one which was a Luger M80 and the other one was a Star pistol which was kept by Mr Kweyama and the third one was kept by Mr Mkhize.

MR PANDAY: So you kept the Luger M80, the Star pistol was kept by Mr Kweyama and the third weapon was kept by ...?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, M80 Luger.

MR PANDAY: Now all these three weapons that you left you all kept behind, was that taken from the robbery?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now any particular reason why you did not hand that in as part of the weapons that needed to be stored?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, there was a reason, but they were not given to us on the same day of the robbery, but it came after three days that the Commander had to give them to us with the aim of rubbing out the serial numbers of the pistols.

MR PANDAY: And to you recall if all the serial numbers were erased?

MR SHANGASE: I don't recall any.

MR PANDAY: Now could you specifically state what was the sole purpose in having robbed this gun shop? What did you hope to achieve when you robbed this gun shop?

MR SHANGASE: Actually the real motive that drove us to rob these guns was the one that I stated before, the political situation that we were faced with in the township and secondly, we never had anything to face the enemy which was armed to ...(indistinct) by the Police Force. And then fourthly, we did achieve something because we managed to get the firearms in order to defend the community and we also had to train some more SDU members in order to be military equipped and in order to have military knowledge, so as to be able to face the enemy.

MR PANDAY: Now do you know if all these weapons were recovered when you were all arrested.

MR SHANGASE: Ja, only three were recovered. Ja, if I'm not mistaken it's only three which were recovered, and the other one they got wasn't from the gun shop.

MR PANDAY: And do you know what has become of the other weapons, or what became of the other weapons that were not recovered?

MR SHANGASE: The ones that were not recovered?

MR PANDAY: Ja.

MR SHANGASE: I actually don't know what happened by that time because I was arrested, so it was the one who was in charge of the DLB and the Commander who knew what happened with those arms by then.

MR PANDAY: Okay. And you mentioned Linda and Mbongeni, any particular reason why they were not included in your application when you made it?

MR SHANGASE: The reason why they were not included in the application, it firstly never came up to our minds that okay, they should be included, because we only had the conviction that as they were not caught they were not part of the thing and we also had the conviction that as they investigating officer was the police and he was the one who was in charge of everything, he knew that there were other people who were left who were involved. So whenever I thought of including them, because specifically it was us who were the victims of everything, we were behind the bars, so we needed to get indemnity.

MR PANDAY: Okay. Tell me, in terms of your benefit from this robbery, did you in any way benefit financially?

MR SHANGASE: I never benefited financially but I benefited politically because it was the political motive that drove me to go to the gun shop.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman. That's the evidence of the applicant. If Mr Chairman would like me to direct to anything specifically.

MS THABETHE: I have no questions, Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: There was one matter that hasn't been explained, is when you were charged ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: The one matter that hasn't been dealt with is when you were charged there were a number of items that you were charged with stealing, weren't there?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, there were those things that were mentioned that we took from the gun shop, but of which I didn't know anything about them.

CHAIRPERSON: And one of the items was R2 324,00.

MR SHANGASE: That wasn't true. I never know that. Because the reason why I'm saying it was not proved was that when we arrived there we opened up the bag, we checked what we had and mostly we needed nothing like money, we only needed firearms and then there wasn't any reason of hiding that matter because we pleaded guilty in court and we needed to tell the truth and as I was doing the application we also needed to put the truth forward, because at the end of the day it was going to be ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Because we have a statement, and I don't know if he's going to be called to give evidence, by a Mr Naidoo, saying that the money was cash that was stolen next to the service counter.

MR SHANGASE: That thing is something that I really won't agree with and as I don't agree with, that is also the reason why I also won't agree with the other items which were mentioned in court, because who might know, the man was trying to cover up for other some things like insurances and all that. That I don't know, he is the one who knows or his employee and what I'm talking about is the one that I know.

CHAIRPERSON: The other things were things like holsters, bottles of gun oil, gun bags and things of that nature and bullet heads.

MR SHANGASE: I don't know anything about it.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Thank you. Mr Shangase, you were sentenced with some of the people who are now applying with you for amnesty today, will that be right?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I was with them.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Were you serving your sentence together?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we were.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Where did you serve the sentences?

MR SHANGASE: At Durban, Westville.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Now have you got any knowledge about attempts by your former co-accused, your present amnesty applicants to apply for indemnity or for amnesty from the Truth Commission?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I know the attempts of them. We all applied for it because we were staying together in one cell and we submitted them together the very same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Well was that for indemnity first?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we applied as the one that I applied for.

CHAIRPERSON: And then did you apply for amnesty?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we did.

CHAIRPERSON: And did the others also do so?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Did you receive any correspondence from the TRC, from the Truth Commission, not from the indemnity office but from the TRC, in connection with your amnesty application?

MR SHANGASE: After I've forwarded the last application for indemnity which - sorry, can you come again, which documents like?

JUDGE POTGIETER: I'm just talking about your amnesty application to the TRC. Did you receive any correspondence from the TRC in connection with your amnesty application?

MR SHANGASE: No, I can't recall that thing.

JUDGE POTGIETER: You can't recall.

MR SHANGASE: What I remember was that I filled that application form and then after that I was called to come to the TRC later on as I ... I can't really recall whether or not.

JUDGE POTGIETER: And any of your co-applicants, to your knowledge, do you know whether they received any correspondence from the TRC?

MR SHANGASE: No, I'm not aware of that.

JUDGE POTGIETER: You're not aware of that.

MR SHANGASE: No.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Thank you, Mr Shangase.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair, I don't have a question to ask. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I wanted to get a bit more about this. You were in the cell together, did you get these forms and fill them in together?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, Sir, as we were together we filled them together, but individually.

CHAIRPERSON: You filled in your own form, yes, then you all did it. You could see the others were doing it, and did you all then hand them in to be sent to the TRC?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we handed them in, but we gave them to the prison warders.

CHAIRPERSON: The prison.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because do you remember, after you sent your first form in you got a reply - could you show him page 47. Do you see that letter?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that for an earlier form you'd sent in? Because I see that letter is dated July 1994.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So had you sent in more than one application for indemnity?

MR SHANGASE: Ja, I can see here, but this was in 1994, but the reason why I've said that I can't recall is because it's the reason that there were many, many like applications which I forwarded concerning the indemnity, so I really can't recall easily whether it was this one or that one was for that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's just what I wanted to clear up. There were more than one.

MR SHANGASE: Yes. So that is the reason why I'm getting confused of it, because I can't specifically be sure that was sent for that on that date.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are sure are you that your co-applicants, Mkhize and Kweyama also sent in application forms for amnesty.

MR SHANGASE: I am cocksure.

CHAIRPERSON: The last one.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, if I could just direct two questions to the applicant.

Mr Shangase, if you turn to page 3 of your bundle, just for the purpose of confirmation, the form that appears on page 3 to page 5, that is the form you filled out.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Do you recall if your co-accused filled out forms that ...(intervention)

MR SHANGASE: We all had the very same forms.

MR PANDAY: And you all filled out the very same forms.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And when you were asked earlier on, are you aware of any correspondences that were received, would one be correct in assuming that all of these applications were done whilst you were in prison?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And had you all received any correspondence, one of you would have known.

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we would.

MR PANDAY: And you mention that you all shared the same cell.

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we all shared the same cell.

MR PANDAY: So had there been any correspondence, you would have known ...(indistinct)

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence of Mr Shangase.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you calling now?

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I'm going to call Mr Kweyama, that's Phinda Kweyama.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------JUDGE POTGIETER: You are Phinda Walter Kweyama, is that right?

PHINDA WALTER KWEYAMA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Thank you. Mr Kweyama, is it correct that you had originally applied for indemnity relating to a robbery that took place at the Isipingo gun shop on the 22nd of April 1993?

MR KWEYAMA: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: And is it also correct that you had then received correspondence from the Department of Justice, advising that you would all have to wait for the promulgation of an Act, in order to entertain those applications?

MR KWEYAMA: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now after having applied for indemnity, did you thereafter fill out an application form for amnesty?

MR KWEYAMA: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: And what did you do with that form after having filled it out?

MR KWEYAMA: I gave it to prison warders to forward it to the TRC.

MR PANDAY: And since having forwarded that application to the TRC, did you receive any correspondence thereafter from the TRC?

MR KWEYAMA: No, I did not receive any correspondence, except for one I recently received when I was already out of prison.

MR PANDAY: When you say you didn't receive any correspondence and you only recently received - I lost the interpretation there.

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, when I was in the prison I didn't get any letter from TRC.

MR PANDAY: Then how did you come to be appearing at the applications, amnesty applications?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that question.

MR KWEYAMA: I had submitted a form in terms of amnesty.

MR PANDAY: And you said that you received no correspondence thereafter until you were released.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said he did receive correspondence lately, after his release.

MR PANDAY: What I'm queering, Mr Chairman, is as to what correspondence did he receive.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the correspondence that told you about this application?

MR KWEYAMA: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Kweyama, is it correct that in respect of the armed robbery at the Isipingo gun shop, you were convicted and sentenced to a term of 6 years.

MR KWEYAMA: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: And you have served that term of imprisonment.

MR KWEYAMA: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Kweyama, at the time of the robbery, did you belong to any political organisation?

MR KWEYAMA: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: And in what capacity were you part - sorry, what was your political organisation called?

MR KWEYAMA: I was the member of the ANC and an activist.

MR PANDAY: And did you have any membership card?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, before I was a UDF, ...(indistinct)

MR PANDAY: And then thereafter you joined the ANC.

MR KWEYAMA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now do you recall your ANC membership number?

MR KWEYAMA: No, I don't recall it.

MR PANDAY: If I have to show you on page - just bear with me, on page 52 you reflect a membership card number: 1878511.

MR KWEYAMA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Would that be your ANC membership number at the time?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Okay. Now as a member of the ANC, what sort of position did you hold, or job designation did you hold with the ANC?

MR KWEYAMA: I did not hold a position, but I was an active person within the ANC.

MR PANDAY: When you mention active, what sort of activity did you engage in?

MR KWEYAMA: I participated in all matters relating to ANC, as I was also a member of the SDU.

MR PANDAY: Now in particular the event that took place on the 22nd of April of 1993, you've heard the evidence that was tendered by Mr Shangase, do you confirm firstly, that that was a true account of the events, that he tendered?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, I do. On the 22nd of April 1993, I was the driver of the vehicle that we were going to use to rob the gun shop. We left early in the morning so that we were there prior to the opening of the shop. My co-applicants alighted the vehicle and I remain in the vehicle. I did not see them whilst they were inside the shop, but I just waited for them to signal for me when they had completed the job.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Shangase mentioned that you were designated as the driver, can you confirm who designated your position as the driver?

MR KWEYAMA: It was the Unit Commander, Sipho Mgadi.

MR PANDAY: And on that day in question were you also armed?

MR KWEYAMA: No.

MR PANDAY: And after having completed the robbery, do you confirm that you all had then driven off to deliver the weapons to a person in charge?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, I drove the vehicle. On arrival at kwaMakutha I dropped the other four and we went to drop the car at Unit 6, where I had been instructed to leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get the car from that day?

MR KWEYAMA: It was parked outside a certain house in Unit 6 at kwaMakutha.

MR PANDAY: And who was supposed to have given you this motor vehicle?

MR KWEYAMA: It was Mfanafigele Mkhize who handed over the keys to me.

MR PANDAY: Do you know how the motor vehicle was obtained?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, I do. Mr Msani and Mfanafigele Mkhize were the people who acquired the vehicle.

MR PANDAY: When you say they acquired the vehicle, do you know exactly how ...(intervention)

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, I know they robbed the car from Isipingo.

MR PANDAY: Right, you need to be specific so they know exactly what took place. Now you say they robbed the car, was it Msani by himself or was he acting in concert with others?

MR KWEYAMA: He was in the company of Mfanafigele Mkhize.

MR PANDAY: And do you know what has become of Mfanafigele Mkhize now?

MR KWEYAMA: Mr Mkhize passed away when he was still in the prison.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Kweyama, after having completed the robbery at the gun shop, did you in any way benefit financially?

MR KWEYAMA: No, we did not benefit anything financially. So what we did benefit about is we get the guns we want to protect the community.

MR PANDAY: Now you say you benefited by getting the guns to protect the community.

MR KWEYAMA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now what would you say was the political objective by having completed the robbery, or having partaken in the robbery, that you hoped to have achieved.

MR KWEYAMA: It was to strengthen our organisation, as well as to protect members of the community. It was our duty to protect the ANC community, that is why we needed those firearms.

MR PANDAY: Now you've heard the evidence of Mr Shangase, he stated that there was violence in the area between the IFP and the ANC.

MR KWEYAMA: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: They were also being attacked by the KZ Police, KwaZulu Police, would you also confirm that as well?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, we were attacked day and night by the KwaZulu Police.

MR PANDAY: Now what sort of justification would you equate to your act by robbing the gun shop? In relation to your political objective. After having ... Why would you say that you were justified in robbing the gun shop?

MR KWEYAMA: I would state that we needed firearms because we were under attack from the IFP and the KwaZulu Police. Were it not for that fact we would not have required those firearms.

MR PANDAY: If you all did not acquire firearms, what would have happened to the community in kwaMakutha? The ANC community.

MR KWEYAMA: If we didn't get those firearms the place would have become an IFP stronghold.

MR PANDAY: So is it to be assumed that you were protecting the interest of the ANC in the area?

MR KWEYAMA: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now on the day in question, when you all went to attack this gun shop, were you all acting under orders or did you all decide wilfully to do it?

MR KWEYAMA: We were following orders from the Unit Commander, Mr Sipho Mgadi.

MR PANDAY: And is it correct that he issued the order to have this place robbed for the weapons?

MR KWEYAMA: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Kweyama, do you know what was taken from the gun shop, specifically?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Can you account for us what was taken?

MR KWEYAMA: It was 11 pistols as well as 5 magazines.

MR PANDAY: Now I'm going to refer you to page, I think it's 47 - sorry, it's not page 47, Mr Kweyama, just bear with me, on page 28. Now on page 28 the first heading:

there's a whole list of items that are listed as being stolen, now do you confirm that there was only 11 firearms and 5 magazines stolen.

MR KWEYAMA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now do you have any idea of these items that are being mentioned herein?

MR KWEYAMA: I've no idea of where these other items emanated from.

MR PANDAY: And the cash that they specifically talk about?

MR KWEYAMA: I bear no knowledge about that amount of money because I did not see any cash.

MR PANDAY: Was there money taken?

MR KWEYAMA: No.

MR PANDAY: Now do you know what weapons were recovered?

MR KWEYAMA: It was the three firearms recovered from myself, Mr Shangase and Mr Mkhize, as well as another one recovered from Dumisani, which was not robbed from that shop.

MR PANDAY: And the live rounds and magazines they also list over there: 3 x 9mm ...(intervention)

MR KWEYAMA: I bear no knowledge about that.

MR PANDAY: Mr Kweyama, after having completed your robbery, Mr Shangase testified that you all reached a designated point and the weapons were handed over for safekeeping, would that be correct?

MR KWEYAMA: That is correct, they were handed over to Mfanafigele Mkhize, who would get into contact with the Commander, Mr Mgadi.

MR PANDAY: And did you all keep any weapons for yourselves?

MR KWEYAMA: No.

MR PANDAY: Or did you receive weapons later?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, after about three days we did receive some firearms.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Kweyama, would you therefore state that your sole motive for having robbed this gun shop was purely to obtain weapons for the protection from the attacks that were being launched against the community, specifically the ANC community?

MR KWEYAMA: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's it.

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PANDAY: That is the evidence of Mr Kweyama, Mr Chairman and that leaves us with the last applicants, that's Mr Mkhize.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------JUDGE POTGIETER: Mr Mkhize, would you just remain standing. Give your full names for the record.

MOSES MOSIGAISAN MKHIZE: (sworn states)

JUDGE POTGIETER: Thank you, you may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before ...(indistinct - no microphone). Can we have the last witness back for one moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kweyama, did you fill in an application form for amnesty?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did all of you do this while you were in the same cell?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes, because we were in one cell.

CHAIRPERSON: And were they all handed to a prison warder for him to send on? Is that the normal practice?

MR KWEYAMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Mr Panday, your client is sworn in.

EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman, sorry about that.

Mr Mkhize, is it correct that on the 22nd of April 1993, you together with Mr Shangase, Mr Kweyama and two others had robbed a gun shop in Isipingo?

MR MKHIZE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Is it also correct that you were then convicted and sentenced for seven years?

MR MKHIZE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: And which sentence you've already completed.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I have.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize, we need your help here. Whilst you were in prison, did you apply for indemnity of the act committed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

MR PANDAY: Can you recall approximately when you had made this application, which year?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot recall the year, but I did submit that application.

MR PANDAY: Okay. Did you submit this application with others, or by yourself?

MR MKHIZE: We were together.

MR PANDAY: When you talk about "we were together", who are you referring to?

MR MKHIZE: I'm referring to Phinda and Nkosinathi Shangase.

MR PANDAY: And after having filled out the application for indemnity, did you later on also apply for amnesty relating to this incident?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did.

MR PANDAY: Now after having applied for amnesty to the TRC, did you receive thereafter any correspondence from them?

MR MKHIZE: No, we did not, we only received correspondence after our release from prison.

MR PANDAY: Okay. Now Mr Mkhize, is it correct that you are residing in the kwaMakutha area?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: And more specifically, on the 22nd of April 1993, you were still resident in the kwaMakutha area.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did reside in kwaMakutha.

MR PANDAY: Now when you were in kwaMakutha, did you belong to any political organisation?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that's correct, I was a member of the ANC.

MR PANDAY: How long were you a member of the ANC?

MR MKHIZE: I've been a member of the ANC for quite a long time.

MR PANDAY: And more specifically in 1993, were you still a member of the ANC?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize, Mr Shangase has testified that on the 22nd of April 1993, himself together with you, Mr Kweyama and two others had robbed the gun shop in Isipingo, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: And you were acting under the orders of your Unit Commander.

MR MKHIZE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Do you know the name of your Unit Commander?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, Sipho Mgadi.

MR PANDAY: Now on the day in question, Mr Shangase also testified that you together with two others entered the gun shop whilst he stood on the outside.

MR MKHIZE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now who decided that you would have to go inside the gun shop?

MR MKHIZE: It was ordered by the Commander.

MR PANDAY: And on the day in question were you armed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: What were you armed with?

MR MKHIZE: I was armed with a 9mm.

MR PANDAY: And of the two others that went in with you, were they armed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, they were.

MR PANDAY: What sort of weapons did they have on them?

MR MKHIZE: One had a firearm and the other had a handgrenade.

MR PANDAY: Right, now do you know the reason as to why the five of you were going to rob this gun shop?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Could you please state that to the Commission.

MR MKHIZE: It was for the reason that there was political violence in kwaMakutha, between the ANC and IFP. We were under attack from the IFP who were colluding with the KwaZulu Police. The situation was so bad that I also had to flee my home, then go into hiding. Therefore the reason we went to rob the shop was because we needed firearms. Were it not for the attacks we suffered we would have had no reason to do so.

MR PANDAY: Now before - you see, you again mention that you went in to obtain the arms, did the organisation have firearms before you went to rob the gun shop?

MR MKHIZE: No, we didn't.

MR PANDAY: Do you know where you obtained the firearms when you went to rob the gun shop? The ones you all used.

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not know.

MR PANDAY: Then how were you given a firearm?

MR MKHIZE: I was given a firearm by Sipho Mgadi and I do not know where he had obtained them from.

MR PANDAY: Now on the day when you were robbing the gun shop, you were the one that went inside with the two others, that's correct.

MR MKHIZE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Can you explain to the Committee what was taken from this gun shop.

MR MKHIZE: We obtained 11 firearms and 5 magazines.

MR PANDAY: Is that all that was taken?

MR MKHIZE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now on page 28 of the bundle of documents there's a whole list of items, also including cash, that was taken, can you comment on that list? Do you want to turn to page 28?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I can comment because I was inside the gun shop. No-one took money from the shop, we only took those things we had intended to rob and those were the firearms.

MR PANDAY: And when you were arrested did the police recover any firearms from you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: How many did they recover from you?

MR MKHIZE: One firearm.

MR PANDAY: One firearm. And do you know in total how many firearms were recovered?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know - or yes, I do, there were three in all. One that was in my possession and the other two were with Mr Shangase and Mr Kweyama, as well as one that was recovered from Mr Msani, but that was not obtained from the gun shop.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize, when this gun shop was robbed, did you in any way benefit financially?

MR MKHIZE: No, we did not.

MR PANDAY: What sort of benefit did you derive by robbing this gun shop?

MR MKHIZE: It was obtaining the firearms.

MR PANDAY: For what purpose were these firearms being obtained?

MR MKHIZE: It was for the protection of our community who were under attack from the KwaZulu Police and the IFP. We were going to use them for self-defence and it was Mr Mgadi's suggesting that we should go rob that gun shop so we could acquire firearms for protection.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, just one question.

Mr Mkhize, when you were given a gun by Mr Mgadi, what were you instructed to do with it?

MR MKHIZE: I was told to use it for protection in case anything happened.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence of the applicants. If you want to adjourn to get any feedback from our investigators.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) we had arranged to adjourn. Before we adjourn I want some more advice.

MR PANDAY: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: 45 minutes.

MR PANDAY: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Quarter to, yes, because we get fed here, so it's - but I thought they made arrangements for all of you.

MR PANDAY: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: If you discover they have you can run back and tell me and we can shorten the proceedings, otherwise of course till quarter to three.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, have you any further witnesses you wish to call?

MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman.

MS THABETHE: No witness, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree that on the evidence we have heard, we should come to the conclusion that all three applicants did apply for amnesty?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the evidence we've heard, do you oppose that application?

MS THABETHE: Not at all, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything in particular you wish to tell us?

MR PANDAY ADDRESSES: Mr Chairman, save to say that the applicants have fulfilled the requirements laid down in terms of this being a political act, as well as the full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was committed in the conflict of the past, between two recognised political organisations.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they have denied having taken any money. We have in the papers put before us, a statement that money was missing, but we have not heard any evidence to that effect.

MR PANDAY: That is correct, Mr Chairman, the applicants that stand before this Commission, they've been quite clear as to what they've taken and what they haven't taken. The applicants themselves have nothing to lose to come to this Committee, they have served their sentence, they have always maintained, even at court, that this is what they took, so why further investigations as to why their representation was not completed to the fullest to try and establish the veracity of what the Complainant said, and that we cannot comment on, but as it stands they have disclosed to the best of their knowledge. They could have very well dismissed and admitted, yes, we took everything and it would have made life much easier for everybody sitting here, but they are quite clear as to what they took. All three of them. And it is my respectful submission that they've been truthful, honest and they have disclosed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reference or page number of the pages of what was taken and found?

MR PANDAY: That was on page 28, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The only things on that that may possibly be stuff that was taken that they have not spoken about - no, the leather holster does not appear as one of the stolen articles, nor does the black plastic packet.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So what was found was three stolen pistols and one other pistol that was not part of what was stolen.

MR PANDAY: Which was not part of the ...

CHAIRPERSON: None of the other, the oil or those things were found on them.

MR PANDAY: None on them, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that complete the hearing set down for today?

MS THABETHE ADDRESSES: Yes, Mr Chair, it does. Maybe in a way of submission as well, I would refer the Committee members also to page 40, 43 to 44 of the judgment where the Judge makes it clear or states it clearly that the accused or the applicants raised the aspect of having committed this act for political reasons and maybe in making the decision the Committee could consider that as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair. Further, Mr Chair, I just want guidance and direction, with Mr Kweyama there is a reference number that was given by our office, but this is - with regard to Mr Mkhize's application there's no reference number and I ...

CHAIRPERSON: That was something we were going to approach you about. Can you please obtain a number, because I don't think we can allocate a number, we'll find we've allocated somebody else's. So if you could communicate with the office in Cape Town and indicate that we have inserted another matter onto the roll, and allocate a number to it.

MS THABETHE: I'll do that, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the same going to happen with any of the ones tomorrow?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, Mnyandu and ...

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you'd better as a safeguard, not that I've come to any decision in that regard at all, get some more numbers.

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, just for confirmation the application of Hlangbanani Msani, is it taken that that matter is to be adjourned or to ...?

CHAIRPERSON: Adjourned. It seems to me, subject to anything that you may have to say or that you may have to say, that it is not a matter that demands a public hearing.

MR PANDAY: I accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: It is - well, what we've got, we don't know how brutal the highjacking was, it was an armed robbery, but I think it's a matter we can discuss with our Evidence Leader and if there was no injury inflicted and matters of that nature, it's a matter that could be dealt with in chambers.

MR PANDAY: As Mr Chairman pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: But we'll certainly let you know whatever we intend to do.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we indicated 9 o'clock didn't we, to the other people. We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.