TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

MATTER: MATTER REMOVED FROM THE ROLL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody. I apologise for the late start. There's some confusion about whether the matter was set down for today or tomorrow and some of the applicants arrived late and I apologise for any inconvenience caused. We'll be commencing today with the hearings in the matters of R Kasrils in Mncube and Nondula and J Mbuli. If you wish to benefit from the interpretation, the proceedings will be simultaneously translated, so if you want to benefit from the translation, you must be in possession of one of these devices. They are available from the sound engineer and before we start I would just like to briefly introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Francis Bosman, she comes from the Cape, a member of the Amnesty Committee. On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, also a member of the Amnesty Committee. He is an attorney and he comes from Pretoria and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court attached to the Transkei Division of the Court.

I would at this stage request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.

MR KOOPEDI: I am Brian Koopedi. I am attorney for the applicants before you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, Jan Wagener, I appear on behalf of a victim, Mr Johannes Frederik van Eck. Thank you.

MR DE BEER: Mr Chairman, Eduan de Beer, I'm an attorney. I'm appearing on behalf of a victim, Mr Johannes Jacobus De Nysschen. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Young you mentioned earlier you'll be assisting Mr De Beer. Yes. Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Koopedi, what is the position relating to Mr Kasrils, as discussed earlier, we've of the view that this is in fact an application.

MR KOOPEDI ADDRESS: As the Committee pleases. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, it is correct that Mr Kasrils was or is included in the names of the applicants that are to appear before you in this matter. However, Chairperson, careful analysis, or if one looks carefully at his application form, Mr Kasrils does not apply for amnesty for any of the operations that were carried out by the applicants that are before you. He is also not mentioned in any of the applications that are before you. I would like, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, to briefly take you through the application of Mr Kasrils which is part of the bundle that is before you and perhaps also give a brief background as to how and when this amnesty application was completed and sent forward.

At an early stage, Chairperson, when the amnesty process started, Mr Kasrils together with other leading ANC members, that is members of the National Executive Committee, they all completed application forms which were to a certain extent, applications for amnesty for these leaders who were taking a collective responsibility with regard the cadres and all the people who functioned under them.

However, Mr Kasrils completed a more detailed application form, than simply an application form that would refer you to the ANC declaration and say that we take collective responsibility. He states on page three of the papers before you, there are two threes, so I'll say the first three, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: He states on that page and that is the third paragraph from the bottom, I'm reading the last sentence of that application that:

He goes on in the next paragraph, I'm only quoting to you the last line also where he starts by saying:

Chairperson it's my submission that for any application to fall within the ambit of the Act, it must be an application for a specific incident or operation and the applicant must be in a position to fully disclose all the material facts related to that operation. The incidents that are to be before you here concerning the landmines in this area, Mr Kasrils will not be in a position to give you any details about those details due to the fact that he was not part of the units that were in this area that carried out these operations. He was also not even part of the command structure, or the Commanders that commanded these units.

If we look at his application, Chairperson, he mentions incidents where he was directly and personally involved. I refer you to page 6, Chairperson, of the bundle of documents and he refers to what he calls the De Lange unit. He says on the last page, I mean in the last sentence of the first paragraph on this issue he says:

These operatives were directly commanded by him and in this instance, this is not the case, as you will see in the course of giving evidence.

I go on, Chairperson. I refer you to the next incident on page 7 where he speaks about the Pietersburg Holiday Inn Anthea's Club. I will read the first part of it:

and the interesting part is the one that is put in brackets, that is:

Now if you go to the paragraph which I believe led the evidence analyst in this matter to include him here, this is the paragraph which is entitled "Landmine Operations".

In this paragraph he states what his roll was. As it could be seen earlier on he has mentioned that at this time he was the head of Military Intelligence and Military Intelligence provided maps of border areas and the farm and security network. Instructions were given on reconnaissance methods. No instructions were given by him that anyone should come and reconnoitre the area in Messina. He says he gave instructions on how to do reconnaissance, how to plan for this and on the collection of data.

It is therefore my submission Chairperson, that Mr Kasrils did not at any stage intend to apply for amnesty with regard to this matter.

Finally, Chairperson, I will say that from my consultations with him, it became clear that not only is he not knowledgeable about the specifics of these matters, but that they were similar kind of applications which I believe, they were held in Nelspruit concerning the Mpumalanga area, where some people appeared and also got amnesty. At the time when those Mpumalanga operations were carried out, Mr Kasrils occupied the same position, that is vis a vis the time when these were carried out and my submission is that he was not called to appear in those hearings, he was not an applicant in those hearings, for the simple reason he had no direct knowledge of the facts that would apply here.

But finally Chairperson, I believe the underlying statement would be that even if he had wished to apply for this incident, his application would not fall within the ambit of the Act because he would have applied for something he does not know.

Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, as said earlier when this matter was brought to our attention this morning as members of the Panel looked into this and we're certainly of the view that the way it's set out in the application form where it was - we considered it to be an application. I mean otherwise why mention it together with these other applications? He states that he came, visited the operatives and that sort of thing, but it's up to Mr Kasrils, we - it's regarded by the Committee as being an application which means that two routes can be followed now. We can merely remove it from the roll, his application and proceed with the application of the other three gentlemen. From what you've said, you won't be withdrawing it because you don't consider it to be an application, so perhaps the best route to follow would be then just to withdraw it, to remove it from the roll of this hearing.

MR KOOPEDI: I would have no problem with that Chairperson and I must say that the other three applicants are ready to proceed. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So we'll remove the application of Mr Kasrils from the roll of this hearing. Yes, Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the three applicants before you are the other three, other than Mr Kasrils, as listed in the bundle of documents or on the schedule. We propose with leave of this Honourable Committee to change their order of appearance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. You can call them in any order you wish Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. The first applicant that will be heard would be number three in the list who is Mzondelele Euthlid Nondula and the second one would be your number four, Jabulani Sydney Mbuli and the third one would be the number two, Mthetheleli Zephania Mncube.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Nondula is before you Chairperson and ready to be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- MR KOOPEDI: He will testify in English, Chairperson. MZONDELELE EUTHLID NONDULA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi. The application of Mr Nondula appears on page 23 of the bundle.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Nondula, I'm showing to you page 23 of the bundle of documents. There is an application form there. Is this your application form?

MR NONDULA: Yes, it is.

MR KOOPEDI: And I'm also showing you page 28 of the same bundle of documents, there is a signature under which the word "deponent" is written, is that your signature?

MR NONDULA: Yes, it is.

MR KOOPEDI: Now Mr Nondula, were you a member of a political organisation at any stage?

MR NONDULA: Yes, I was.

MR KOOPEDI: Which political organisation?

MR NONDULA: The African National Congress.

MR KOOPEDI: When did you join the African National Congress?

MR NONDULA: In 1982.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you join the African National Congress?

MR NONDULA: In Lesotho.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you belong to the military wing of the African National Congress?

MR NONDULA: Yes, I was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any military training and if you did, briefly tell this Honourable Committee what military training did you receive and where did you receive it?

MR NONDULA: The first basic training was in Angola, a six month course and from there was in then East Germany and then the other I did was in Tanzania, Commander's course.

MR KOOPEDI: Now after you were trained, did you have an opportunity to be infiltrated into the country?

MR NONDULA: yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And when was this? When were you infiltrated into the country and perhaps if you could be very broad about that. Tell this Honourable Committee whether you belonged to any unit then and if so, how many of you were in that unit.

MR NONDULA: That was in 1985 when we were first infiltrated, being a unit of twelve.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you recall the month?

MR NONDULA: November, I think it's November 1985. What actually transpired is, we were first briefed by our fellow Commander as to the nature of the operation that we were going to undertake, which in this case was landmines. The briefing went thus: politically speaking the Soutpansberg area was regarded, now let me say in military terms, the farming community in this area was regarded as the first echelon of defence in the sense that the population there was actually sponsored or even encouraged by the Government to maintain that area as being the trained personnel, therefore in this sense, legitimate targets in the view of MK and the African National Congress. They were trained as Commandos to safeguard the border area and thus our order was then given to operate in the area.

MR KOOPEDI: Now I need you to get to your infiltration. Did you belong to any unit?

MR NONDULA: Yes, as I've said, we were a unit of twelve.

MR KOOPEDI: Now who was the Commander of this unit? Because as you would have it there were people commanding this unit, who was the Commander of this unit?

MR NONDULA: Okay. The frontal Commander was Mancheck, unfortunately I don't have his real name at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Nondula, could you spell that?

MR NONDULA: M-A ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you try to spell it?

MR NONDULA: M-A-N-C-H-E-K.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, if I may be of assistance, Mancheck has been spelled with a C-K at the end in a number of amnesty applications. Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe while you are there, you said you were briefed, who briefed you?

MR NONDULA: It was Mancheck himself who briefed us.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR NONDULA: And thereafter we were transported to along the borders of Zimbabwe, just across the Limpopo, by the other side of Limpopo river where we stayed and slept overnight. It was then decided that the unit must be divided into two, meaning six/six, each person carrying a landmine and a rifle and other ...(indistinct)

The two units now, had to have different Commanders. On the other unit in which I was in, it was ...(indistinct), he was the Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was his name?

MR NONDULA: Agrippa.

CHAIRPERSON: Agrippa?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that a code name?

MR NONDULA: Yes and the other unit then was commanded by Chilies.

CHAIRPERSON: Chilies?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NONDULA: Then we slept over this side of the river for preparing ourselves for now the actual crossing of the border, which we did the following day at night, I would say around 9, past 9 somewhere there. Then we went - we travelled deeper into the South, because the instructions were: "In the area in which you operate, there are patrols, security patrols." The order then was to lay these mine fields in the roads that are actually used for patrolling the area. The following day we travelled almost the whole night ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. When you say you travelled, was that on foot?

MR NONDULA: Yes, on foot yes, we walked, I'll say, ...(indistinct) We slept because we could not operate during the day so we had to ...(indistinct) ourselves somewhere under bushes until it was dusk, then we began walking, moving now towards the border area, the border fence and on instruction, it's unfortunate at this stage I cannot remember the actual spots were certain landmines were laid, but then on instruction of an order, we would dig and then we placed the mine field and then we carry on. The idea being that they should not be too clustered in case of detection.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you say on instruction you would dig and lay the landmine, in your unit, would you be the person giving the instruction?

MR NONDULA: That was Agrippa.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry, Agrippa?

MR NONDULA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Agrippa.

MR NONDULA: Yes and also him, because he was, together with Chilies, the person who initially undertook reconnaissance in the area and I think I should add here that he was, Agrippa in this sense, he was almost familiar with the area itself because of reconnaissance that he had already undertaken. So we laid these mine fields, all six of them and on the third day, we spent two nights inside, then on the third night we crossed over to Zimbabwe, that must have been on a Wednesday.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say you laid the six mines, were these on different roads or all on the same road, but at different places?

MR NONDULA: Not on the same road, different roads that actually lead to the main patrol route along the fence and the last one was actually put there on that patrol route, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and these mines that you laid, could you describe them? I know very little about mines, I don't know if they come in different sizes, if some are stronger than others. If you could just briefly describe the type of mines which you laid.

MR NONDULA: It must have been the weight of more or less 6 kgs, brown of a ...(indistinct) casing, with - now the substance I am not very sure now whether it was meant to be ...(indistinct) mines, it should have been filled up with TNT, I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just indicate with your hands about the size of the mine.

MR NONDULA: It must have been this size.

CHAIRPERSON: You're indicating about 25 cm, I suppose, just less than a foot. Would that be round?

MR NONDULA: Ja, it's round and brown.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. You've mentioned that your frontal Commander was Mancheck, but now who would have been the Commander, the actual Commander for this unit, the entire unit of twelve people before you were actually split into two?

MR NONDULA: He was the one.

MR KOOPEDI: Who, Mancheck?

MR NONDULA: Mancheck ja, because all the briefings we got from him, logistical arrangements and that kind of thing.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.

MR NONDULA: Chairperson, that is the evidence of the first applicant then.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Who's going to start? Mr Wagener, are you ready to - if you have any questions to ask you may proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Prior to this incident, what training did you receive in military weapons?

MR NONDULA: The kind of training we received is the normal basic training, rifles, artillery, marching drill, we used to call it topography at that stage. Okay then it was intelligence, counter-intelligence.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive any training whatsoever in explosives?

MR NONDULA: Yes, engineering, we actually did it, that's it ...(indistinct)

MR WAGENER: What was the nature of this training?

MR NONDULA: The nature of the training?

MR WAGENER: In explosives.

MR NONDULA: In explosives?

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR NONDULA: You're actually taught to use explosives for sabotage purposes, like normal training any other soldier would get, if I got the question correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this training, this engineering, where did you receive that, Angola or East Germany?

MR NONDULA: In Angola and East Germany, it's an over ...(indistinct) training.

MR WAGENER: During the course of this training, did you ever handle landmines as such?

MR NONDULA: Yes, we did.

MR WAGENER: Did you lie to the criminal court when you testified that you had received no prior training in landmines?

MR NONDULA: I must have lied.

MR WAGENER: Are you asking for amnesty for lying to the Court?

MR NONDULA: I'm asking for amnesty, yes I would say for lying, if I did lie at that stage and also for the fact that the act itself says: "Let's reconciliate" and I am now on that road.

MR WAGENER: Can you show me where in your written application do you ask for amnesty for lying to the Court?

MR NONDULA: No, I don't know that.

MR WAGENER: Sorry?

MR NONDULA: I'm not aware about it.

MR WAGENER: Before you entered the Republic of South Africa on this specific mission, what were your exact instructions? Can you please tell us?

MR NONDULA: The exact instructions were to lay landmines along the patrol routes in this vicinity.

MR WAGENER: Were you not supposed to first enter our country merely for purposes of reconnaissance and draw up maps where the military patrols were and then report back to your military headquarters in Zambia?

MR NONDULA: That part did not include this unit at that stage. The people who were doing reconnaissance, as I said, were Agrippa and Chilies, they were the people who did all that and they reported back.

MR WAGENER: When was that reconnaissance done?

MR NONDULA: In 1985, I'm not sure now the actual months, it must be somewhere September or August, somewhere there, because reconnaissance is something that carries on, it's a continuous thing.

MR WAGENER: Are you personally aware of what you're saying now? Are you personally aware of this prior reconnaissance?

MR NONDULA: Am I aware of?

MR WAGENER: This prior reconnaissance of the other terrorists?

MR NONDULA: I am aware ...

MR WAGENER: Sorry, sorry, sorry, who was that speaking now? Who was that speaking to you next to you?

MR NONDULA: My comrade.

MR WAGENER: What did he say? What did you friend say?

MR NONDULA: I didn't hear him, I was answering you.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, when a witness is giving evidence, if he could not be spoken to. Sorry, the question that you asked Mr Wagener, was were you aware of the reconnaissance mentioned by you done by Agrippa and Chilies, at what stage are you talking about? At the time it was done or when?

MR WAGENER: Ja, before the group of twelve left for South Africa.

MR KOOPEDI: And Chairperson, excuse me, if I may just interpose. I believe the reaction that we got here, stems from the fact that my Learned Friend is referring to people as terrorists and from where I come from and from where these applicants come from, that's an insult Chairperson and if my Learned Friend would refrain from such references, I do not think we will have bursts. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr Wagener, if you can just respect that.

MR WAGENER: Were you present in Zambia or Zimbabwe, or wherever, when these two friends of your reported back about their reconnaissance?

MR NONDULA: The briefing that we were given was from the fact that an information has been gathered as to the military activities within the area and the persons therefore who were going to be our Commanders were in the know, so it was made known to us that they are capable, they know the area, they will be able to lead us to the area, so in that sense, yes.

MR WAGENER: Did they show you any maps perhaps, that they drew up where the roads were supposed - or the roads where the mines were to be laid?

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: And were those the roads where the mines were in fact laid on your mission?

MR NONDULA: I may not necessarily be accurate on that information, but to the best of my knowledge we did manage to plant them where we were supposed to plant them.

MR WAGENER; Will it surprise you to know that you and your friends planted a landmine that eventually killed the family of my client, that you planted that on a farm where no military vehicle or no military patrol has ever been before this incident?

MR NONDULA: As I've said earlier, no knowledge in as far as I am concerned, was actually targeted towards a particular family or particular person, the operation in total was to the best of my knowledge, a military operation in a military area.

MR WAGENER: Well, I put it to you that you planted a mine on a farm on a road where there's never ever been a military vehicle whatsoever prior to this incident, what do you say about that?

MR NONDULA: All I would say about that is in as far as I was concerned at that stage, people who were in the vicinity, were regarded as military personnel and I can assure you, patrols in the area by military vehicles were there. As to whether at that particular point in time it was not, that does not concern me at this stage, it didn't concern me even then.

MR WAGENER: I want to come back. Can you deny that this landmine was laid on a farm where there's never been any military patrols? It was a holiday farm.

MR NONDULA: I know nothing about a holiday farm, all I know is the area in itself is a military area, that's all I can answer to that question, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Why do you say that?

MR NONDULA: I was in the area myself, I did see patrols at some point. I did see patrols of military vehicles in the area and the debriefing, as I've said earlier, was and I believed in that also, was that the first echelon of defence was composed of the Commandos who were along the border areas of South Africa, not necessarily in Messina, but of South Africa and that is the job that they did.

MR WAGENER: This farmer on whose farm you planted the specific mine that killed my client's family, was he a member of the Commandos?

MR NONDULA: I would believe so.

MR WAGENER: Well, I put it to you he was not.

MR NONDULA: I didn't know.

MR WAGENER: He was not even resident on that farm.

MR NONDULA: I didn't know even that.

MR WAGENER: He merely occasionally visited this farm, can you deny that?

MR NONDULA: I don't know about it.

MR WAGENER: Well, if you can accept what I've just said, that this was a person staying in another part of our country and this is merely his holiday farm, he's not a member of the Commandos, there's no military patrols whatsoever on his farm, on what basis do you say this farm is part of a military zone?

MR NONDULA: On the basis that this is Soutpansberg Military area and according to my briefing which I believed completely, that personnel in this area were actually military personnel and it is only on that basis that I acted with a clear conscience, if I may say so.

MR WAGENER: Mr Nondula, have you see the statistics of this terror campaign of yours? Have you see the results, the end results?

MR NONDULA: As you may know, I was physically, I was illusionally involved when the trial went on, I saw everything that was - I was supposed to have seen as evidence and photographical evidence and as verbal evidence given in a Court.

MR WAGENER: Can you deny that 25 people were killed in this landmine campaign, although you were not involved in all the incidents, 25 people were killed, of whom 24 were civilians?

MR NONDULA: I cannot deny.

MR WAGENER: So you killed only one our of 25 military personnel.

MR NONDULA: That must have been the case then. I cannot deny those statistics.

MR WAGENER: And the 24 people killed, were they legitimate targets, according to your organisation, the ANC?

MR NONDULA: What was regarded as a legitimate target at that stage, was the personnel in this area that I believed to be military personnel, that was legitimate.

MR WAGENER: Yes. And then you went on and you laid a mine on a farm where there's never been any military personnel and is that how you and your unit thought, how you were going to attack the military opponents?

MR NONDULA: Sir, it's quite regrettable that in a situation of intensity of conflict, that blood had to be shed, tears had to flow and in many, many cases, this is not only the only case, that some people do become victims, the innocent ones.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm sorry Mr Wagener, can I try to get some clarity here? It doesn't appear very clear whether you were targeting specific roads to lay these landmines, or were you targeting a certain area, a zone, within which you were going to - you had instructions to lay the landmines, what was the debriefing?

MR NONDULA: The briefing Sir was the area in which we were going to operate is actually peopled with military personnel and thus to make our presence felt, we had to target the roads along the border where the military personnel travelled.

MR SIBANYONI: Was this area indicated in terms of the distance? How long from the border itself, or what was the description?

MR NONDULA: The discretion at some point rested also with the Commander because we were briefed clearly that we should at least not be more than 10 kilometres from the border at least and in that case 10 kilometres from the border, it meant we had to be in the country and come back as soon as possible, before we could be vulnerable ourselves.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Wagener.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wagener, if I could just ask, while we're on this point. It's a long border between Zimbabwe and South Africa. Could you give us a closer description of where you actually crossed? Do you know this area at all, Mr Nondula, now as you sit here? Do you know, in relation to let's say Messina, where was it? Was it towards the Kruger Park side, or was it towards the Botswana side, or how far from Messina more or less, that your unit, Agrippa's unit operated?

MR NONDULA: Yes. Mr Chairperson, I am sorry, at this stage I will not be able to furnish you with the cases of the matter because I'm not very familiar with the terrain itself. It was my first time to be inside South Africa, through this area, travelling at night, but from the map that we were given, the area was divided into two and I would simply say that from our point of view we were on the western side of the area, then the other unit was on the eastern side of the area, so I cannot really say to you if you move this direction then you'll see this place, in this kind of situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Wagener, may I just clarify something here? Mr Nondula you described these roads as patrol roads.

MR NONDULA: Yes, Ma'am.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you sort of perhaps just clarify in relation to other roads, were they sort of like farm roads? Were they secondary roads? Were they primary roads, or isn't it possible for you to indicate?

MR NONDULA: Yes, I can, Ma'am. The one identical road is the one that stretches along the border fence itself. Now you also have the adjoining ones. That means now as they patrol, they have to go around the area itself, so those are the roads I am talking about.

ADV BOSMAN: So it would most probably be sort of a tertiary road? You'd have your main road, which is probably a tarred road and this is a - is it a dirt road along the border?

MR NONDULA: It's all dirt roads, Ma'am.

ADV BOSMAN: And you didn't plant anything on that road, but you planted it on the tertiary roads coming out of that road?

MR NONDULA: We planted one on that main road, before we crossed.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay.

MR NONDULA: That was the last one that we planted, but we went inside and moving along these secondary roads leading towards the main road, that's where we planted our landmines.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright. Thank you. Thank you Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Mr Nondula, to that very last response of yours, I put it to you that you are lying. The mine that killed my client's family, was not on a road as you have just explained and he will lead evidence to that effect and I will hand up photographs showing this road, so I put it to you, you are lying.

MR NONDULA: You may say so, but ...(end of tape) transpired what happened.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR NONDULA: Ja.

MR WAGENER: You followed the gist of my submission that I put to you just now.

MR NONDULA: I followed it properly.

MR WAGENER: You understand what I'm saying?

MR NONDULA: I do understand you.

MR WAGENER: That we will present evidence showing that you're lying on this aspect.

MR NONDULA: As far as I am concerned at this stage, Sir, that is exactly what happened.

MR WAGENER: Did you have to climb through fences to get to the area where you laid this mine?

MR NONDULA: We did.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR NONDULA: Yes, we did.

MR WAGENER: Game fence?

MR NONDULA: Yes, that was during the day and what happened is at some point we were the first group in fact that went in. They were able to move out earlier and early in that morning, we heard an explosion and it was a normal response that we may be in trouble, so we had to shift our position during the course of the day, we had to climb some fences and that happened on our way back, that is where we put the mines on the road moving back to the border.

MR WAGENER: I put it to you Mr Nondula, that the mine that killed my client's family was put on a small game road, if I may call it that, on a farm totally enclosed by game fence with no access by the public, no access by the military. It was a private farm enclosed by game fence, what do you say about that?

MR NONDULA: Sir, as I've said earlier, I rather should put it clearly, in my knowledge then I didn't have a Mr De Nysschen that I knew, that I wanted to kill. All that happened is I undertook instructions, I took instructions as they were given to me and executed them to the fullest.

MR WAGENER: In a question put to you by the Chairman, you said or you mentioned something about a map given to you. Can you please tell us what this map was all about?

MR NONDULA: The map was actually the lay-out of how the roads from the border fence leading inside, how they looked like, just like a sketch.

MR WAGENER: Right.

MR NONDULA: That's all.

MR WAGENER: Did it show all the roads where the mines were to be laid?

MR NONDULA: Let me ...(indistinct) all the roads, it showed the area and the roads that you would expect to see when you come into the area and then where we could put them.

MR WAGENER; Was it your instructions, in other words, that the mines should be laid on the roads as specified on this map?

MR NONDULA: Exactly Sir.

MR WAGENER: Those were your instructions?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Did you follow those instructions?

MR NONDULA: I did.

MR WAGENER: Was it, in other words on this map, shown that you should plant the mines on Mr De Nysschen's farm, which was totally enclosed by game fence, is that what you're saying?

MR NONDULA: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wagener's wanting to know, Mr Nondula, this map, did it have the points marked on the map with a cross or something else, where the mines should be placed? Here you are with six mines. Here's the map of the area that you must go, there are six points marked on the map. You must go to those points and lay the mines.

MR NONDULA: Not necessarily and the maps, they showed only the lay-out of the area and the possible roads that the mines could be laid in.

CHAIRPERSON: So it didn't have the points where the mines ...

MR NONDULA: Not necessarily the points on the map, so the discretion at that stage had to be that of the Commander, the ...(indistinct) Commander at that stage.

MR WAGENER: You've mentioned it earlier that the policy or the general instructions of your movement, was that the mines should be laid on roads patrolled by the military, right?

MR NONDULA: Exactly.

MR WAGENER: So, when laying these mines, you ignored these instructions.

MR NONDULA: How?

MR WAGENER: Well, I've said that a number of times now. You laid a mine on a road where there's never been a military vehicle before. How did that come about?

MR NONDULA: I cannot at this stage testify to the fact that there was no military vehicle that ever passed that area or not, I cannot at this stage, because I did not do the reconnaissance myself and specifically the instructions that were given to us, those are the instructions that we followed.

MR WAGENER: Your group of six, your two friends sitting next to you, were they part of that group?

MR NONDULA: Not at all.

MR WAGENER: Were they part of the other group?

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Now this Agrippa that you referred to, what is he real name?

MR NONDULA: I don't know his real name.

MR WAGENER: I put it to you that you're lying, you know his real name. What is his real name? Tell us.

MR NONDULA: I do not know his real name, Sir.

MR WAGENER: What happened to him?

MR NONDULA: He passed away. He was shot.

MR WAGENER: When?

MR NONDULA: 1987, 86.

MR WAGENER: May I ask your friend to stop helping you give evidence, or else I'm going to request that he sit in another chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, when the witness is giving evidence, he mustn't be assisted in any way.

MR WAGENER: Mr Nondula, are you proud about what you did here?

MR NONDULA: I am.

MR WAGENER: As a soldier?

MR NONDULA: As a soldier, yes I am.

MR WAGENER: For killing innocent women and children, you're proud of that?

MR NONDULA: I am.

MR WAGENER: Is that how you were trained by your organisation, to do acts like this, commit acts like this?

MR NONDULA: No.

MR WAGENER: So why are you proud?

MR NONDULA: I've said earlier, in a situation of conflict, it is quite regrettable that innocent lives should be lost. That one is regrettable. I do regret that, but I cannot run away from the fact that I was acting out of a pure political conscience as a soldier, that one I cannot run away from.

MR WAGENER: But you were acting outside your instructions.

MR NONDULA: I was not.

MR WAGENER: Well I will bring evidence showing that.

MR NONDULA: And I still believe I was not, in that case I would have agreed with you from the beginning, but I was not.

MR WAGENER: What was the purpose that you wanted to achieve by killing these innocent women and children?

MR NONDULA: The purpose was, as I've said earlier, a purely military objective.

MR WAGENER: Yes, but we all know this is not a military target, we know that as a fact.

MR NONDULA; You have established that fact, I think so.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR NONDULA: Then the fact that the civilian lives had to be lost, as I've said earlier, is quite regrettable.

MR WAGENER: So my question was, what did you want to achieve by killing these innocent people?

MR NONDULA: What we wanted to achieve was first and foremost to open up this area for ...(indistinct) operations because there was no way for us to go and operate in the area, unless we actually made our presence felt and then we could find our passage through to other areas where we wanted to operate.

MR WAGENER: Sorry, but I don't understand this answer. How do you open up an area by killing women and children? I don't understand this.

MR NONDULA: The women and children that were killed were not part and parcel of the overall objective of MK.

MR WAGENER: Right. So this act of yours was not aimed towards the overall objective of MK?

MR NONDULA: So this act of mine was not aimed at those innocent people, it was part and parcel of the overall strategy of MK.

MR WAGENER: And what was that?

MR NONDULA: As I've said earlier Sir, to open up the area, so that we could be able to operate and reach other places where we thought or deemed it necessary for us.

MR WAGENER: Mr Nondula, we're going in circles now. Now we're back to my question when I asked you: "How would you achieve this opening up by killing women and children?" How would this opening up be achieved by that?

MR NONDULA: At this stage if I've not yet answered you, then I don't know what else answer could I give to you.

MR WAGENER: Sorry, you haven't answered me at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we are going around in circles now. Perhaps this can be a question for argument.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive a medal for this murder?

MR NONDULA: At this stage I have only one medal, ...(indistinct) medal, I was given by the SANDF.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive a certificate or a commendation for this murder?

MR NONDULA: Nothing at all.

MR WAGENER: I read in a newspaper you did, you received some order, or I'm not sure what it is, from Mr Mandela in Soweto on the 16th of December, I think 1992, what was that that you received?

MR NONDULA: Sir on the 16th of December 1992, I was in East London.

MR WAGENER: Or 1993, I'm not sure, but I read something like that.

MR NONDULA: In 1993, you are mistaken Sir, if I may say so.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive an award from Mr Mandela at any stage?

MR NONDULA: As I've said nothing, I would have mentioned it. Nothing.

MR WAGENER: Sorry, I thought - then I'm mistaken. Did any of your colleagues?

MR NONDULA: I think they'll have to answer for themselves Sir.

MR WAGENER: Do you know?

MR NONDULA: They'll answer for themselves, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Do you know?

MR NONDULA: I do.

MR WAGENER: Did they?

MR NONDULA: I know one.

MR WAGENER: Who?

MR NONDULA: My comrade Mncube.

MR WAGENER: What did he receive?

MR NONDULA: A medal.

MR WAGENER: I'm not sure - I'm referring to an award received from Mr Mandela. I was under the impression it was you, now you say it wasn't you. I'm asking you was it your colleagues next to you?

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was Mr Mncube got an award.

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Oh, I see. Was this not for the incident where ...(intervention)

MR NONDULA: I may not know anything about it, the only thing I know is that he did receive something from the President himself.

MR WAGENER: The ANC says in its submission to the Truth Commission, Mr Chairman I said I think it's page 327 of the bundle, I have the full document before me. They refer to this campaign of using landmines and they said that the decision for this operation was made at military head quarters. Do you have any knowledge of this? That the decision to embark upon this landmine campaign, was taken by your military head quarters. Do you have any knowledge thereof?

MR NONDULA: For me, Sir, that is logical enough, that any military decisions that were taken at that stage, had to be approved by the High Command.

MR WAGENER: Yes and who would be the High Command?

MR NONDULA: The High Command would be everybody who then was in the position to influence the policies and strategies that must be followed within the military organisation, meaning MK.

MR WAGENER: Would that include your army Commander of the time, Mr Joe Modise?

MR NONDULA: Definitely Sir.

MR WAGENER: Would that include the Commissars, including Mr Steve Tshwete?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER; Would that include the Chief of Operations of the time, Lambert Moloi? Would that include the Chief of Military Intelligence, Ronnie Kasrils?

MR NONDULA: Yes, indeed Sir.

MR WAGENER: Thank you. Would it also include your National Executive Committee?

MR NONDULA: As I said, any person may have a direct influence in terms of strategies and policies to be followed within the military organisation.

MR WAGENER; Was this landmine campaign a new concept at the time in waging the arms struggle?

MR NONDULA: In this sense, ja, it was because I do not recall any landmine operation prior to that incident.

MR WAGENER: So what you say is an idea of this kind would have been discussed at and approved by, as the ANC says, by their military head quarters, that we now know.

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: And what about the Higher Structures, like the NEC?

MR NONDULA: I may not necessarily, but I can only think that where those authorities have to be informed, they would definitely be informed.

MR WAGENER: I read to you from a document stemming from the ANC setting out the tasks of the military head quarters:

What was the PMC?

MR NONDULA: The Political Military Council.

MR WAGENER: And the NWC, what was that?

MR NONDULA: The National Working Committee.

MR WAGENER: And the NEC?

MR NONDULA: The National Executive Committee.

MR WAGENER: So would you expect a campaign like this, the landmine campaign, to have been approved by these bodies that I've now mentioned?

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Now tell me Mr Nondula, how does it come that you sit here today before us without your Commanders?

MR NONDULA: I am the person who asked for amnesty and I am sitting here as that person who wishes to say: "Yes, it is me who did this and here are the reasons that this happened."

MR WAGENER: What I'm asking is, it seems to me that you're a mere footsoldier, or you were a mere footsoldier in this operation.

MR NONDULA: Yes, I was.

MR WAGENER: Now where are all your Commanders?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he's applied, he ...

MR WAGENER: Isn't the reason ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How can you expect him to answer that?

MR WAGENER: Well I'm going to put it to you, isn't the reason that you were acting outside your instructions when laying this specific landmine, isn't that the obvious reason? And I'm going to argue that, so I want to put it to you now.

MR NONDULA: I deny what you are saying. Whatever I did, was under specific instructions and I obeyed those orders as a footsoldier, as you're saying, I obeyed those orders and I carried them out.

MR WAGENER: Did you inform your erstwhile Commanders that you were going to apply for amnesty for this act?

MR NONDULA: I did not.

MR WAGENER: Did you not?

MR NONDULA: No.

MR WAGENER: Not at all?

MR NONDULA: Not at all.

MR WAGENER: Wasn't that the obvious thing to do?

MR NONDULA: What was obvious for me to do was to appear in front of this Committee and to state my case because everybody had to go and testify, who so thought, or yes, that he had something to tell this Committee.

MR WAGENER: May I ask you this, you told us that you were a group of twelve initially.

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Under the leadership of a man called Mancheck.

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Is he the same person that I've seen called as Manchecker, I've seen that name also in some of your ANC literature, is that the same person?

MR NONDULA: I know Mancheck, I may not necessarily be aware as to the correct pronunciation, but I know Mancheck, it could be the one.

MR WAGENER: Yes. And then you divided into two groups of six?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And the one leader was Agrippa?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And the other one was Chilies, or something like that?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Now what happened to Mancheck?

MR NONDULA: Mancheck passed away.

MR WAGENER: No, but prior to this, during this operation, what happened to Mancheck when the two groups divided?

MR NONDULA: Oh, I see. No he was left behind either in Bulawayo or Harare, I'm not sure where he was exactly.

MR WAGENER: I see. He didn't cross the border at all?

MR NONDULA: No, no, he did not.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, can you spare me a moment?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairman, those will be my questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer, do you have any questions that you would like to put to Mr Nondula?

MR DE BEER: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DE BEER: Mr Nondula, you said that when you crossed the border, you saw some patrols. Were they military patrols, I assume?

MR NONDULA: Yes, they were, Sir.

MR DE BEER: On your patrols, did you see, while you were walking did you see any civilians?

MR NONDULA: Not where I was.

MR DE BEER: No civilians. Did you see at any stage within eye contact of the main road or the roads that were leading, the side roads, were you at any stage taking into account the traffic that passed on these roads? Could you have witnessed these vehicles?

MR NONDULA: The vehicle that actually we saw was on the second night, but it was at night and if I'm not mistaken it was in fact a military car because they were patrolling that area since they had observed some footprints, that's the car we saw.

MR DE BEER: Excuse me, did they - who observed any footprints?

MR NONDULA: The soldiers because remember in that area there was already now a follow-up being done by the military personnel in the area and they might have seen our footprints and I can testify truly now and say they did see some footprints and they were making a follow-up on that because I think twice we would see them, either going this direction or we see them going that direction, but we had to hide ourselves in most cases and there were also dogs. We could see them, the trucks and everything there.

MR DE BEER: Trucks and everything, but you just said that it was only cars, you say only one military car.

MR NONDULA: We did see dogs, I mean dogs, I did see dogs.

MR DE BEER: Is it now dogs, or is it cars as well, cars and dogs?

MR NONDULA: The boots we saw, the car we saw.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talk about a car, can you describe the vehicle?

MR NONDULA: It was a jeep type but it was at night, I couldn't really say what colour etc.

MR DE BEER: If you say dogs, were these dogs on the vehicle, or ...?

MR NONDULA: No, no, they were on the ground.

MR DE BEER: Were they walking on their own, was it stray dogs, was it police dogs, was it military dogs?

MR NONDULA: They were track dogs.

MR DE BEER: So who was with these dogs?

MR NONDULA: The military personnel that was patrolling the area.

MR DE BEER: So you saw a military car then.

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR DE BEER: A Jeep-like car?

MR NONDULA: A Jeep-like car, yes.

MR DE BEER: And you saw military personnel with dogs.

MR NONDULA: With dogs, yes.

MR DE BEER: How many personnel?

MR NONDULA: I couldn't figure that out because what happened is we were behind a bush hiding ourselves and they were passing by, so from the distance where we were, we could hear the sound of the boots moving in that direction and what we did was to follow behind them because there was no way they were going to come back and look from where they have already checked, so that's where now we could clearly identify some dog prints, foot prints and the boots etc.

MR DE BEER: And these were the only people or vehicles that you saw?

MR NONDULA: That we saw, yes, that's right.

MR DE BEER: Okay. On what road, more or less, was this? Was it the main road, or was it a secondary road?

MR NONDULA: It would be one of the secondary roads, yes.

MR DE BEER: But you at no time saw any civilians around the area?

MR NONDULA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Nondula, from the time that you crossed the river into the country until the time you left, which you said was on the third night, you only saw one vehicle?

MR NONDULA: Ja it was - the patrol vehicle we saw was on the first night before we crossed, because we wanted to confirm the security system and then when we crossed the second day, as I've said, we just slept, we did not operate. We operated the following night and by that time there was already, our situation was already risky, I'd say, in the sense that this other unit had already planted whilst we had done nothing, so the whole area now was being searched. That's where this whole situation ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Beer.

MR DE BEER: Thank you Mr Chairman. On your brief, before you undertook this mission, when you were briefed with regard to the terrain and the population, whether it was a military area, or military zone as you refer to, were you informed at any stage that this area contained any civilians, that there were civilian families living there, or farming there or that the road that you referred to was being used by both military and ...?

MR NONDULA: Yes, firstly there is a farming community whose then purpose is to safeguard the area. It therefore suggests that those people did have their wives and children must have gone to school or doing whatever chore they were supposed to do around the area, that is a fact.

MR DE BEER: So am I correct in understanding that before you undertook this operation that you had this knowledge, is that correct?

MR NONDULA: That's correct, Sir.

MR DE BEER: Mr Nondula would you agree with me that in planting a landmine, the landmine doesn't ask questions whether the next person who drives over it is going to be a military vehicle or a civilian vehicle, so will I be correct in saying that from the start there was a possibility that if you planted the landmine in that area, that civilians, as you said, farmers with their wives and children, would drive over these landmines, will that be correct?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR DE BEER: If you say that you do not target civilian people, would you not say that in planting those landmines and by knowing or having had the knowledge that those landmines could actually kill civilians, that you were actually - that you actually - sorry, just a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: You can speak Afrikaans if you want to and they can interpret.

MR DE BEER: Mr Chairperson, sorry, I just lost my line of thought there for a moment. If you can give me just a minute. So, let me rephrase my question. In having that knowledge that the landmine could either explode on the military vehicle or a civilian vehicle, would it not be contrary to the policy at that stage, or to you orders not to engage civilian targets?

MR NONDULA: Sir, the objective, as I've said, was purely a military objective, to achieve military gains. Now, in a situation where a civilian bumps over a mine, as I've said earlier, that would be a regrettable scenario, as it has actually transpired. It's quite regrettable in the sense that they were not actually aimed at and I may also add that for me at some point, I did say if a person would take his family in an area where there is potential conflict, military conflict, that person is not actually, if I may use the word really at this stage, responsible enough, because he should have removed the family in the area where there is potential military action.

MR DE BEER: You say conflict and that there was potential military action.

MR NONDULA: Potential military conflict. Now what I'm talking about is, along the borders in an area that's been earmarked as a military area, military "gebied", in my view and I was convinced that that was the scenery, that was the case, that personnel in that area are purely military personnel. I knew that there was a system that was used in border protection of the Commandos who were regarded as the first echelon, or they composed the first echelon of defence and what was my duty? Per orders I had to be in that area and lay mines in the area I believed that the military personnel will be affected by those actions.

MR DE BEER: In an area where there are both civilians and military people, you've just said that there were farmers, would you know which farmers were in the Commando system and which farmers were not?

MR NONDULA: No, not at all.

MR DE BEER: So you knew that there were farmers there and there were military personnel which travelled along the road, is that correct?

MR NONDULA: I knew that the farmers in that area belonged to that system of Commandos for the protection of the border areas in South Africa, that's what I knew and I was made to know.

MR DE BEER: How did you know that?

MR NONDULA: As I've said, the briefing itself strictly explained that to us that the farming community are regarded from now henceforth as the first echelon of defence. They are trained soldiers, fulfilling other duties to the Government, by being in the farming business and it is only on that score that my conscience became clear in my undertakings.

MR DE BEER: So are you trying to say that the farmers in the area were the Commandos and were in the Commando system and actually a threat to your military operations in that area?

MR NONDULA: Exactly, Sir.

MR DE BEER: Why would you think that the farmers in the area would go into having a Commando system?

MR NONDULA: The system of securing the borders of our country at that time was and I believed, based on the Commando system, together with the regular personnel, for information as to other military activities happening in the area, either to report them or to act upon them, according to their instructions.

MR DE BEER: Why would it be necessary for them to protect the borders at that stage as civilians and to enter into a Commando unit or ...?

MR NONDULA: It was their obligation to do that, to protect the borders, to protect the properties.

MR DE BEER: Could it not also be that in order to protect their wives and their children?

MR NONDULA: Exactly.

MR DE BEER: Against what?

MR NONDULA: Against what they saw as terrorism.

MR DE BEER: Or could it have been that it was against any attacks from any MK units crossing the border?

MR NONDULA: Exactly Sir.

MR DE BEER: Will that be the same as a terrorist attack or not?

MR NONDULA: That is security work. If you'd hamper or - how can I put it? If you would decide that you are going to be the ear and the eye of the then existing Government, I would have regarded you as my enemy proper.

MR DE BEER: If there was a threat to your home and your wife and your children, would you not also have engaged in a self-protection unit idea in order to protect not only yourself, but your neighbours as well?

MR NONDULA: That is true, that would be my obligation but now the line must be drawn here, if I may add, I was fighting a system I believed to be rotten. I was fighting a system I believed to be inhumane, from at the ground of a person who at that stage had no claim to citizenship, to human dignity and whoever then stood to enforce that miscarriage of justice, I was obliged to act upon, whoever he was.

MR DE BEER: Even if it means killing women and children on a farm that has never been used for military purposes in any way whatsoever?

MR NONDULA: No, Sir, no.

MR DE BEER: If you could just give me a minute, Mr Chairman. No further questions at this stage, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr De Beer. Do you have any questions you'd like to put, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, I do Chairperson, very few questions.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Now Mr Nondula, were you at any stage a member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC?

MR NONDULA: Not at all.

MR KOOPEDI: Were you at any stage a member of Military Headquarters?

MR NONDULA: Not at all Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: The PMC, Political Military Council?

MR NONDULA: Not at all, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: The National Working Committee?

MR NONDULA: Not at all, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Were you at any stage given minutes of their meetings?

MR NONDULA: Not at all, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you ever attend any of their meetings, that is perhaps prior to you undertaking this mission?

MR NONDULA: Not at all, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: And finally, when you were in the country, that is when you were sent in to do this operation, you personally, did you have a discretion as to where a landmine could be placed?

MR NONDULA: The discretion, as I've said earlier, lay with the Commander of the unit, himself.

MR KOOPEDI: Now in any of these mines, is there a stage where you were given an opportunity to decide where to put any of these mines?

MR NONDULA: Not at all Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, is it your evidence that with the unit you were with where all mines were planted, this was per instructions of your immediate Commander and not your own initiative?

MR NONDULA: Correct, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: No further questions, thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Adv Bosman, do you have any questions that you would like to put?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Nondula, according to your evidence, if I understand correctly, you never observed any civilians in the area?

MR NONDULA: No, not at all.

ADV BOSMAN: If you had observed civilians, would it have made any difference to what you did?

MR NONDULA: I doubt it because I took the instructions as they came. If then the discretion of the Commander at that time would have been otherwise, I would have followed those instructions.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, any questions you'd like to put?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nondula, I see there was a trial where this thing was fully canvassed. Was it possible to identify you with specific instances where these landmines either killed people or injured people?

MR NONDULA: Can you come again Sir, I can't follow your question.

MR SIBANYONI: As you are sitting there, do you know, do you have any knowledge as to which people were injured or killed by the landmines which your unit planted?

MR NONDULA: Yes, the first time I heard about it was in the news. It must have been, ja it was on the 15th of December 1985 and then a follow-up was made through the newspapers that we bought and then prior to the trial itself and during the trial, then I came to see some of those who actually were injured or were affected by my actions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think what Mr Sibanyoni's asking is do you know whether the mines that your unit, where you were actually involved in the actual laying of the mines, who the victims were of the mines laid by you. In other words do you know whether you laid the mine which the vehicle containing the van Eck's for instance was driving, or the vehicle containing the De Nysschen's was driving in?

MR NONDULA: If I follow the question correctly Mr Chairperson, the mines that I was made to identify at some point. I was able to say: "Yes, I remember this occasion and that occasion", but I cannot now with definite assurance say: "Yes, I remember all those areas."

MR SIBANYONI: Were the co-applicants sitting next to you belonging to the other unit?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Panel, Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: None, thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener?

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairman.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: On this last question of Mr Sibanyoni, do you concede that you were convicted in respect of the mine that killed the De Nysschen and Van Eck families?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And that was done on the basis of a confession made by you prior to the trial?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And also on the basis of certain points that you pointed out to the investigating officers?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And although you didn't testify in the criminal case, you were convicted on strength of that?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer?

MR DE BEER: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Nondula. That completes your testimony, you may stand down now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. That constitutes the evidence in as far as the application of applicant Nondula is concerned. I would like to call the next applicant, Chairperson.

I will be guided by you in terms of the breaks we are to have, I realise we are behind times.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should have a very short break. Five minutes. Not five minutes meaning thirty-five minutes. Just a five minute break to give the interpreters time to let their throats rest for a while and perhaps have a drink of water or something. We'll just take a very short adjournment now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, the next applicant will be Mr Jabulani Sydney Mbuli. He's ready to be sworn in Chairperson.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: (affirmed states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Mbuli I'm showing to you an application form. Chairperson that's on page 29 of the bundle of documents. Is this your application form?

MR MBULI: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And on page 34 of the said bundle, there's a signature appearing just above the word "Deponent", would this be your signature?

MR MBULI: Yes, it's mine.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter that involves the landmines in the Messina area?

MR MBULI: That is so.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, at any stage were you a member of a political organisation?

MR MBULI: Yes, I was a member of the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR KOOPEDI: When and where did you join the ANC?

MR MBULI: I joined the ANC in 1981 in Swaziland.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any military training?

MR MBULI: I did receive my military training in Angola and the Soviet Union and Tanzania.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, you've heard the evidence of your co-applicant Mr Nondula, who says that you were part or you belonged to the unit together, do you confirm this?

MR MBULI: Yes, it's true.

MR KOOPEDI: Now he also went on to say that upon infiltration, this unit was broken into two groups, one led by Chilies and one led by Agrippa, can you confirm this?

MR MBULI: Yes, the unit was divided and I belonged to Chilies' group.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what your group did from the time you crossed the border into the country, into South Africa?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Mbuli, do you know what Chilies' real name was?

MR MBULI: No, that was the nom de guerre, Chilies, I don't know his real name.

CHAIRPERSON: You've never learned it, even now as you sit now you don't know it.

MR MBULI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And is he still alive, do you know?

MR MBULI: No, he died.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. I had asked you to briefly tell this Honourable Committee what your group did, part of this unit did from the time your crossed into the country, South Africa.

MR MBULI: Ja, as a unit of twelve we were assigned a mission, as my comrade has already mentioned what was the mission and we decided no, we have to divide because the unit was too big. The other unit will be under - the other six will be under Chilies and the other six will be under Agrippa. Then we stayed a night before because it was late, in Zimbabwe, then we crossed the following day, it was a Monday, if I recall.

Then the whole night we planted the landmines in the area shown on our maps, then the following morning, the early hours of the morning which will be around five, then we crossed back to Zimbabwe because we were given strict orders. That mission should be a fast mission. You go and come back and it's what we did.

MR KOOPEDI: Now how many mines, landmines did your group plant?

MR MBULI: We planted six landmines.

MR KOOPEDI: And these are the mines that took you the greater part of the night to plant.

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Immediately thereafter, you say in the early hours of the morning, you went back to Zimbabwe.

MR MBULI: Ja, we went back to Zimbabwe.

MR KOOPEDI: Would I then be correct to say that you were inside the country, carried your operation only for that night, one night?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now in the process of planting these landmines, were you in a position to decide where a landmine should be planted, you personally?

MR MBULI: No, not personally but the Commander decided that no, we'll plant the mine here and we'll have to do that, it was an order.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, in as far as you know, which of your landmines exploded, do you know?

MR MBULI: No, I won't know.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you know which victims were injured or killed by the landmines that were planted by your group?

MR MBULI: I won't say that no, mentioning the name that no, it's this person who was, who detonated our mine, but I know that the mines in that area were detonated.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Sir, your written application has been referred to you by your lawyer, pages 29 to 35, correct, of the bundle, that's your application.

MR MBULI: Can you repeat it again?

MR WAGENER: Is this your application, page 29 to 35 of the bundle?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And you took the oath when signing this document that this is the truth.

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Do you still say so?

MR MBULI: Yes, I'm still saying that.

MR WAGENER: For which incidents do you apply for amnesty?

MR MBULI: I applied for the mines exploded in that area which the bigger unit was operating.

MR WAGENER: The which unit, sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: He said the bigger unit was operating, in other words are you saying that you apply for amnesty in respect of the mines laid by the twelve of you?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: But the way I understand your evidence, you were not involved in some of the incidents, your smaller group.

MR MBULI: They were not involved?

MR WAGENER: Your group.

MR MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Was not involved in all these incidents, why do you apply then for amnesty for all those incidents, I'm not sure?

MR MBULI: I don't understand you Sir, when you say my unit was not involved because we are a bigger unit.

MR WAGENER: Were you involved?

MR MBULI: Yes, I was involved.

MR WAGENER: In the landmine that killed the family of my client Mr van Eck?

MR MBULI: Yes, I was involved as a bigger unit.

MR WAGENER: Were you yourself involved?

MR MBULI: Yes, I was involved.

MR WAGENER: In this landmine that killed the family of my client?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wagener's asking is, were you personally, yourself, physically, personally involved in the planting of the landmine that killed members of the van Eck family, yourself personally?

MR MBULI: Sir, I will say as a member of the unit I was involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand what you're saying, but what Mr Wagener's asking is, do you know whether you were personally involved in the actual laying of that specific actual mine that blew up the van Eck family?

MR MBULI: I won't know because we operated in a very big area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I come in here? The unit consisting of twelve members, did it have a name?

MR MBULI: No.

MR SIBANYONI: These two units consisting of six members each, did they have names?

MR MBULI: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Why I'm asking you this, if you have a look at page 31 of the bundle, in the middle of the page you say that the victims of your actions were, you refer to a van der Eck family, I assume you wish to refer to the van Eck family and you refer to a labourer, Mr Ndlovu, those were the victims of your actions. Correct?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir, in "expantiating" on this one, as I've earlier mentioned that no, as a unit, the thing which I came with this name, it was because of Mr van der Eck appeared on the TV, that no he wants to see the people who were involved in the laying of the mines. I didn't know that no, Mr van der Eck, in which area where we were operating this thing, he stays. No on that background, that's why I included Mr van der Eck.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wagener's getting at, you've in your application form at page 30, you've singled out the van Eck family and Mr Ndlovu. We know that besides those people, the van Ecks and Mr Ndlovu, there were other victims from the same campaign of laying landmines, for instance the De Nysschen family. Why did you just mention these two names and not all the victims of all the explosions?

MR MBULI: I know of this name from the newspapers which came out after, on the funeral, when Mr van der Eck was addressing the funeral, when he was out of the hospital, I started knowing and Mr Ndlovu's name, I also took it from there that also he was a victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Will you accept that Mr Nondula, the previous applicant, he was convicted for the two incidents that you, in your written application, seem to apply for amnesty?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: But now you say that is wrong.

MR MBULI: No, I'm not saying that is wrong, we were a unit. Mr Nondula, my comrade, he was arrested, I was not arrested.

MR WAGENER: But were you part of the same six?

MR MBULI: Of the same twelve.

MR WAGENER: But not the same six?

MR MBULI: Not the same six.

MR WAGENER: So you were not involved in the two incidents that you refer to on page 31, or am I mistaken?

MR MBULI: I mean what Nondula he has applied and what he appeared this thing in Court for because he was shown the areas where this thing he operated, I mean it's according to the evidence which Nondula gave. Me, I applied on the basis of people who got killed in the area because of the mines I laid.

MR WAGENER: Were you in the same smaller unit?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he wasn't the same as Nondula.

MR WAGENER: Yes. Were you in the same smaller unit as Mr Mncube?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: He's not applying for these incidents that you refer to on page 31.

MR MBULI: I don't know, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Because he was not involved.

MR MBULI: I don't know, that he will answer himself.

MR WAGENER: When your unit of twelve, when you were briefed in Zimbabwe, I take it, by whom were you briefed?

MR MBULI: We were briefed by Mancheck.

MR WAGENER: Is that Julius Maliba?

MR MBULI: I don't know that name.

MR WAGENER: Was he the chairman of the Zimbabwe Regional Politico Military Committee, Julius Maliba, alias Mancheck? is that the person we refer to?

MR MBULI: If they say he's Julius Maliba, alias Mancheck, that's him.

MR WAGENER: Chairman, I'm reading from the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ANC submissions.

MR WAGENER: The May submission, page 54 on the Zimbabwe structure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 54, I'll just write that down. Thank you.

MR WAGENER: That's right. What did he say? What were you supposed to do on this mission?

MR MBULI: When he brief us, he told us of that area, those areas next to the border line, Soutpansberg specifically, as the military area. That the community around there, it's organised into Commando structures, the rural Commando structures and our mission is to lay mines and the mines we had were the ...(indistinct) mines. We took the order and we simply did that.

MR WAGENER: Where were you supposed to lay the mines?

MR MBULI: On the patrol roads.

MR WAGENER: Only the patrol roads?

MR MBULI: Pardon?

MR WAGENER: Only patrol roads?

MR MBULI: Yes, the patrol roads.

MR WAGENER: So, if your colleague, Mr Nondula, and his unit laid mines not patrolled by the military, were they not following the orders?

MR MBULI: Can you repeat that Sir?

MR WAGENER: I asked you, you said your orders were to lay mines on the roads patrolled by the military, okay?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Now I ask you, so if the other unit of Mr Nondula laid mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside the orders?

MR MBULI: Nondula, he didn't say that this thing ...(intervention)

MR WAGENER: I'm asking you, I'm asking you now.

MR MBULI: No, I won't answer for Nondula. If you ask me about my unit, I think that will be okay.

MR WAGENER: Yes. Yes.

MR MBULI: Us, we laid mines in the patrol roads used by the military.

MR WAGENER: Well, I'm asking you if the other sub-unit laid mines not on roads used by the military, were they acting outside the orders given to the big unit? That's my question.

MR MBULI: Nondula said they laid mines in the patrol roads, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Yes, but I'm asking you and you're not answering my question. If evidence will show that they planted mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside the orders of this Mancheck?

MR MBULI: That will be difficult for me to answer for somebody else.

MR WAGENER: But you were present when the orders were given to the twelve of you.

MR MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Well then you can answer the question. It shouldn't be difficult. It's a simple question.

MR MBULI: Okay, I'll simply say this, Sir. When we were given order, they said the area, it's organised into rural Commandos. Everybody who's there is attached to this structure.

MR WAGENER: Are you serious with that answer?

MR MBULI: Yes, I'm serious.

MR WAGENER: So the black labourers on the farms, were they also part of the structure?

MR MBULI: I'll say sorry Sir for the labourer who was a victim of our actions.

MR WAGENER: But were they a target as well, these labourers? Were they targets of yours?

MR MBULI: No, we were not specifically aiming at certain individuals, we were only attacking. We laid the mines to the patrol road. If the labourer he drove on top of this thing when he was driving through the patrol road, that's why I'm saying, I'm sorry for that.

MR WAGENER: But we've now had a long debate and you still haven't answered my question.

MR MBULI: Sir, what's your question?

MR WAGENER: For the fourth time, the question is, you were present when Mancheck gave instructions.

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And you told us that the instructions were that mines should be laid on roads used by the military.

MR MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Now the question is, if the other sub-unit, group of six, laid mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside these orders given by Mancheck? That's the question.

MR MBULI: I think I've answered that one, Sir.

MR WAGENER: No you haven't.

MR MBULI: No, I've answered that one.

MR WAGENER: Was it a yes or a no? You haven't answered the question, Sir.

MR MBULI: I've answered it.

MR WAGENER: Well, repeat your answer please.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't need to, we've heard what he's said Mr Wagener, perhaps you can carry on asking, but we don't need to have it repeated, we've got it written down here.

MR WAGENER: Chairman, maybe I'm then a stupid lawyer, but I didn't hear what he said as being an answer to my question.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't in a yes or no form.

MR WAGENER: Well it was no answer at all to the question put.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you can use that in argument, we don't have to have him repeating what he's just said.

MR WAGENER: When you returned to Zimbabwe immediately after this operation, to whom did you report back?

MR MBULI: We reported back to Mancheck Sir.

MR WAGENER: Where was that?

MR MBULI: That was in Bulawayo.

MR WAGENER: Was that where this structure, the Regional Politico Military Committee as seated?

MR MBULI: No, they came to see us.

MR WAGENER: Who came to see you?

MR MBULI: Mancheck.

MR WAGENER: And who else?

MR MBULI: No, it's Mancheck.

MR WAGENER: Sorry, I thought you said "they", that's why I'm asking the question.

MR MBULI: Oh maybe it's my mistake, it's the one who came to see us.

MR WAGENER: Were you present when a report-back was made to him?

MR MBULI: Yes, I was present.

MR WAGENER: What was reported back?

MR MBULI: I mean everything was on the news Sir, the only thing was to thank us for the mission well done.

MR WAGENER: But isn't it correct that some of these mines only exploded weeks later?

MR MBULI: Ja, but the first mines.

MR WAGENER: Yes. So you referred to, I think there were four incidents about on the 26th and the 27th of November, I think there were about four incidents. You refer to those?

MR MBULI: Ja, the first mines which exploded.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what were those dates, Mr Wagener?

MR WAGENER: Chairman, I have it that the first two incidents took place on 26th November and another three took place the next day, the 27th.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Mbuli, approximately what date did you lay those mines, taking into account that the first one was set off on the 26th of November?

MR MBULI: Ja it was on - the first mines exploded on the 26th.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and then now, how long before that were they actually laid?

MR MBULI: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: How long before that were they actually laid on the road?

MR MBULI: They were laid in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the?

MR MBULI: Of the 26th.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so it was the same night? Okay, thank you.

MR WAGENER: The other group of six, did they report back in Zimbabwe the same time as your group of six?

MR MBULI: No, they followed later.

MR WAGENER: How much later?

MR MBULI: I don't remember. It should be after a week or so after we had arrived.

MR WAGENER: Were they in the country for about a week?

MR MBULI: Sorry?

MR WAGENER: Were they in the country for about a week, laying their mines?

MR MBULI: They were in the country I think for two days, then they went to Zimbabwe, then there was another walking involved in Zimbabwe.

MR WAGENER: The two groups of six each, did they enter the country on the same day together?

MR MBULI: Yes we entered together.

MR WAGENER: The same day?

MR MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Now we know that two of these mines exploded only on the 12th of December, the one and the other on the 15th of December 85, we know that. That is approximately two weeks after they were laid, will you accept that?

CHAIRPERSON: Even up to three weeks, the 15th to the 26th of November is closer to three weeks.

MR WAGENER: Ja. Ja, even up to three weeks, will you accept that?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir, I will.

MR WAGENER: So, if I understand you correctly, these mines were lying there underground for more than two weeks before they were detonated by a vehicle going over them.

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Does that mean that the road was not used by a vehicle for the same period, about two weeks? How would you comment on that?

MR MBULI: Ja in that one Sir, I will say maybe the detonation unit of the Government then, failed to discover those mines.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wagener's asking you, the fact that a mine was only detonated - sorry was this mine unintentionally detonated, the one on the 15th?

MR WAGENER: Well that is the one that killed the van Eck family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it wasn't done by the ...

MR WAGENER: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: It was unintentionally detonated. The fact that a mine was unintentionally detonated three weeks after it was laid, does that mean necessarily that that road was not used by a vehicle for three weeks? In other words between the time the mine was laid and the mine went off three weeks later, it meant that another vehicle didn't use that road in that period?

MR WAGENER: Ja, I will say that Sir.

MR MBULI: It means it was not used until the other car detonated it.

MR WAGENER: And you also said a minute or so ago, that these specific mines, in other words mines that detonated 12 and 15 December, they were not found by the explosives or the mine searching personnel of the Defence Force. Are you aware that they were looking for these mines on the roads in that area?

MR MBULI: Ja because I mean it's an obvious case. They will be looking for mines.

MR WAGENER: Ja. Now why do you think were they unable to locate these mines not on a much earlier date?

MR MBULI: I wouldn't know, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Isn't it obvious that they were not searching on these specific roads?

MR MBULI: I may have a different answer for that one.

MR WAGENER: Well?

MR MBULI: It's true, they were not searching on these specific roads.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR MBULI: Well, I can say they've passed it when they checked, they didn't notice it.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure, I see it's half-past four nearly, I'm not sure what you intend doing this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: We'd like to do as much as possible.

MR WAGENER: Okay, can we continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Will you accept, Mr Mbuli, that this landmine campaign was a total failure?

MR MBULI: It was a total failure on what, Sir?

MR WAGENER: Well, the intended targets were not hit. It's a known fact that 90% plus of the victims were civilians, innocent civilians.

MR MBULI: I mean it's my first time to see those statistics from you Sir, of that no, there were 24 people, civilians, who died and one in the Security Forces.

MR WAGENER: Ja. Do you dispute that?

MR MBULI: I mean, it's what I'm saying that no, it's for the first time Sir to hear those statistics.

MR WAGENER: Well, will you accept that your President Mr Tambo, became concerned that this campaign, to a large extent, only targeted innocent civilians and therefore he called it off?

MR MBULI: What I know that no, the late President, Oliver Tambo, he did mention that no, this landmine campaign must stop, the majority becomes civilians, I mean that was the - I will say that was the news from the newspaper, that was the bulletin from the newspapers, that was the only information - that was the only source of information ...(indistinct). Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: For what it's worth, Mr Chairman, I'm reading from page 327 of your bundle, in the left-hand column, the fourth paragraph. In other words, the high echelon, or the Command Structure of the ANC realised that the targets intended to be hit, were not hit, namely the military, during the course of your - operations like yours.

MR MBULI: But in our operation, what I know, that I successfully operated in that particular area. An order which I was given, I fulfilled them.

MR WAGENER: Yes. No I accept that what you say is you followed orders, I accept that, but that your mission was a failure in terms of ANC policy and general instructions.

MR MBULI: Is that a question?

MR WAGENER: Yes, that was what I put to you, do you want to comment?

MR MBULI: That the ANC said it was a failure?

MR WAGENER: Ja. Anyway, if you don't want to - your unit of six,

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir?

MR WAGENER: Were they involved in prior reconnaissance before planting the landmines?

MR MBULI: Chilies was involved.

MR WAGENER: How do you know that?

MR MBULI: Ja, because he left us and he went for reconnaissance.

MR WAGENER: When?

MR MBULI: It should be around August/September somewhere there of 1985.

MR WAGENER: And were you in possession of a map when you - of a map specifying the locations of where bombs, mines had to be planted?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: What happened to this map?

MR MBULI: The map?

MR WAGENER: Ja.

MR MBULI: It has to be returned back to ...(intervention)

MR WAGENER: Did you see the map?

MR MBULI: Ja, when everything was planned, it was planned, when we were briefed, we were briefed on the basis of that map that no, we'll operate in this area.

MR WAGENER: And the other group of six, did they also have a map?

MR MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Do you know that or are you speculating?

MR MBULI: No we are a same group, when we were briefed we were briefed together.

MR WAGENER: Ja.

MR MBULI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you went on the actual mission, when you crossed over into the country and split into two groups, did you still have a map?

MR MBULI: No.

MR WAGENER: So were you supposed to enter the country and find the exact roads by night without a map and to know then where to plant the mines? Is that your evidence?

MR MBULI: No we are saying that Chilies as the person who was on the reconnaissance, he's the one who went fro reconnaissance, he knows the area, we relied on his knowledge of the area.

MR WAGENER: And was it the same with the other group of six with their leader, apparently Agrippa?

MR MBULI: Agrippa.

MR WAGENER: Was it the same there?

MR MBULI: I think it was the same.

MR WAGENER: Who gave the overall instruction for your operation?

MR MBULI: It was Mancheck, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Wasn't it the National Executive Committee of the ANC?

MR MBULI: I mean this thing, as you earlier mentioned that what role Mancheck was in that Zimbabwe Front, he's the one who gives us the instructions.

MR WAGENER: But didn't this instruction come from ...(intervention)

MR MBULI: Automatically ...(intervention)

MR WAGENER: Sorry. Sorry, you were saying?

MR MBULI: That simply means Mancheck gets his orders from the higher echelon.

MR WAGENER: What is the higher echelon in your book?

MR MBULI: That will be the National Executive Committee.

MR WAGENER: So the National Executive Committee gave the instructions for this landmine campaign?

MR MBULI: Pardon, Sir?

MR WAGENER: So the National Executive Committee gave the instructions for the landmine campaign, is that your evidence?

MR MBULI: Ja because us, we were given orders as the footsoldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether the National Executive Committee gave orders to Mancheck, or are you assuming it? Do you have personal knowledge where Mancheck got his orders from?

MR MBULI: I'm assuming that he got it from the National Executive Committee.

MR WAGENER: But on page 33 of the bundle, you state as a fact, if you want to have a look it's there with your lawyer, you state as a fact, that's the way I read your application at least, that the order or approval came from the National Executive Committee. Do you see that there?

MR MBULI: Yes, Sir, I see it.

MR WAGENER: Is that your firm belief that that's how it happened?

MR MBULI: Ja, because any order to a footsoldier, it must come from the National Executive Committee of the ANC, yes.

MR WAGENER: Before you embarked on this operation, were you at any stage told that your operation had the blessing of the National Executive Committee?

MR MBULI: Before?

MR WAGENER: Ja, before you embarked, before you came to South Africa on this operation, were you told: "You needn't worry, the National Executive Committee had authorised or approved your mission", or is this merely an assumption?

MR MBULI: I mean as a footsoldier Sir, I only receive orders, I don't question orders, because I take it for granted that the orders come from the higher ...(indistinct), yes Sir.

MR WAGENER: Had you at any stage after this operation met the Chief of your army, Mr Joe Modise? Have you met him personally? After this operation?

MR MBULI: After this operation?

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR MBULI: No, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Never?

MR MBULI: No.

MR WAGENER: Did any other senior member of your Command Structure, apart from this Mancheck, discuss this operation with you afterwards?

MR MBULI: No Sir.

MR WAGENER: Till today?

MR MBULI: No.

MR WAGENER: Is that the position? Chairman, I've got no further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer, any questions you'd like to put to Mr Mbuli?

MR DE BEER: No questions from me, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thanks, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions you'd like to put?

ADV BOSMAN: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbuli thank you, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now.

MR KOOPEDI: And in fact Chairperson, that will conclude all the evidence to be tendered in respect of Mr Mbuli's application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I think if we can try to finish the evidence of the applicants today, it would ...

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Mthetheleli Zephania Mncube, he is ready to be sworn in.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: (affirmed states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Mncube, I'm showing to you page 12 of the bundle of documents which has an application form. Is this your application form?

MR MNCUBE: Yes, Sir, it is mine.

MR KOOPEDI: And at the end of that application which is at page 17 at the bottom, just above the word "Deponent", is that your signature?

MR MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: I'm showing you now page 19 of the bundle of documents. This page 19 is a letter that goes up to page 22. Was this letter done by you, written by you?

MR MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: And do you confirm the contents thereof?

MR MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now at the time in question, that is the time when these landmines were laid, were you a member of any political organisation?

MR MNCUBE: I was a member of the African National Congress and its military wing, uMkhonto weSizwe.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any military training?

MR MNCUBE: I did receive military training in Angola and East Germany.

MR KOOPEDI: When did you join this ANC?

MR MNCUBE: I joined the ANC since 1979.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you join is?

MR MNCUBE: While I was still inside the country, I joined the underground structures, then I left the country in 1980.

MR KOOPEDI: And went where?

MR MNCUBE: I went to Swaziland, Mozambique and to Angola.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you've heard the evidence of your two co-applicants which is to the effect that you belonged to a unit of 12. Would you want to confirm that?

MR MNCUBE: Yes, I would like to confirm that.

MR KOOPEDI: Further evidence was given to the effect that upon infiltration, this group of twelve was split into two groups, the one group being commanded by Agrippa, the other group being commanded by Chilies. Can you confirm any of this?

MR MNCUBE: That's true.

MR KOOPEDI: And the group to which you belonged, who commanded it?

MR MNCUBE: It was commanded by Chilies.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you briefly tell this Committee what your group did immediately upon entering South Africa, until you withdrew? What did you do?

MR MNCUBE: Well, our group had six landmines and they were all under the command of Chilies, as the person who was giving us instructions as to where we're going to lay the landmines, the area that he will point that the landmine must be laid, then we'll do so without questioning that. The area where these mines were planted, as my other colleagues have just said, it was an area which was said is a military area, Soutpansberg military area and they said there's a lot of military activity there.

MR KOOPEDI: Now these six mines, were they all planted?

MR MNCUBE: All six mines were planted.

MR KOOPEDI: After planting the six mines, what did your group do?

MR MNCUBE: Then we withdraw back to Zimbabwe.

MR KOOPEDI: At some stage you were arrested and in the Messina area, when was this? When were you arrested?

MR MNCUBE: Well I was arrested after the first mine incident, that was now in 1986 in December.

MR KOOPEDI: That would mean almost a year after the group of twelve ...(end of tape) I take it you had also, coming again as you did for the first time, illegally into the country?

MR MNCUBE: Ja.

MR KOOPEDI: Now were you alone when you came in at this stage?

MR MNCUBE: We were five when we came in for the second time and this time our Commander was Agrippa. We were tasked to come in and lay landmines more or less in the same area, more or less. I can't - because I'm not very familiar with the area but they were more or less in the same area, to lay landmines.

MR KOOPEDI: Now do you remember, can you recall the exact date, the date on which you came into the country?

MR MNCUBE: If I remember correctly, I think it was December 25, 1986 or it could be 24, somewhere there.

MR KOOPEDI: Now did you lay any landmines?

MR MNCUBE: Well we didn't lay any landmines.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you carry out any operation?

MR MNCUBE: The main thing was to come in and lay the landmines and we were told that we need to go at least about 20 to 30 kilometres inside the country before we can start laying the landmines and Agrippa, as the person who knew the area, was the one who was going to lead us to these areas. So unfortunately after we were inside the country, a farmer spotted us in one of the places where we were hiding and this farmer started shooting at us. Well, I'll call him a farmer today, but then we felt that he's one of the Commandos who was shooting at us, but at Court it transpired that he was a farmer.

Well, he was far from us when he started shooting, then we withdrew from that area where that shooting took place, then after an hour or two, then the military personnel with their helicopters were in the area now looking for us, that's when our shoot-out started between us and the military.

At the end of the day, three of my colleagues were killed in that shoot-out and I was captured in the evening, around six, though the first shoot-out started in the morning around five. The other, I learned later when I appeared in Court, he was also killed.

MR KOOPEDI: So in fact four of your colleagues were killed?

MR MNCUBE: Ja, were killed during the shoot-out.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.

MR MNCUBE: Then after I was arrested by the military, by the soldiers, they handed me to the Special Branch, then the Special Branch, they started beating me, kicking me, then they used my shoelaces to tie my hands at my back and they put me in one of their vehicles with the corpses.

They transported me to an area where they off-loaded me from the back of the bakkie. They put me into another bakkie. Well, they were speaking in Afrikaans most of the time. Somewhere they stopped, they came at the back of the bakkie, then I was blindfolded all the time. The other person there he said to the other one: "No, let's take him through to some other place to kill him", then I knew that was going to happen, it's then when I started to loosen myself and I don't know what to say, fortunately or unfortunately, but I think it was fortunate for me that there was an AK47 at the back of a bakkie which was wrapped in a canvass. Then I took out that AK47 and I fired shots to both people who were transporting me and I escaped.

A couple of days later, because I could not get some water and I was hungry, I think it was nine days later when I came across a young girl. I asked some water from that person, the she said: "Okay, wait here", then she went inside the farm. Then she didn't come with water. Later I realised that actually the farmer himself phoned the police and I was picked up by the police and they took me to Messina police station, then at the end of the day I appeared in Court.

MR KOOPEDI: Other than this girl from whom you asked water, did you meet with any person?

MR MNCUBE: No.

MR KOOPEDI: During the time, that is after having escaped from the two police personnel that were with you?

MR MNCUBE: I didn't meet anyone then.

MR KOOPEDI: And this girl, what did she look like? Did she look like a military person, did she look like an ordinary person, what did she look like?

MR MNCUBE: Well to me she looked like an innocent person, I do not think that somehow was trained maybe to look after suspicious people, but after I asked her some water, I realised then that I think this girl was trained to look after suspicious persons and to report to the farmer, so I take it that that girl was part of their security systems, or something.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's retreat a bit and go back to the landmines that were laid by your group of six.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, before that Mr Koopedi, I'm sorry, was this girl black or white?

MR MNCUBE: It was a black lady.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you talking about girl, what, five years old?

MR MNCUBE: I think she was around, I'm not sure really, but to me she looked like she was 16, 15, 16 or 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Let's go back to the mines that were laid by your group of six. Do you have any personal knowledge as to which mine detonated when and which mine killed or injured whom?

MR MNCUBE: I had no knowledge up until I appeared in Court and I was told that some of the landmines were detonated by the De Nysschen family, van Eck family, I think somebody, a truck driver or something, a black person also, but really then I didn't know which mine we laid as a group of six, killed who.

MR KOOPEDI: But however, is it correct to say that you take responsibility or you take yourself to be part of he group of twelve that laid the twelve landmines?

MR MNCUBE: Ja, since we operated more or less in the same area and there's - my other colleague said earlier on that we were briefed together as a big group, though at the end of the day we separated and I cannot say for sure what the other six group, what they did that other side, but the other group, my group where I was involved, I know for sure that this is what we did.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you found not guilty of the murder of the van Eck family?

MR MNCUBE: I was not found guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: Not found guilty, yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And I believe he was not charged with that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you charged with the murder of the van Eck family?

MR MNCUBE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: On this last question, Mr Mncube, you were in fact charged for all the landmines, if I reach the charge sheet in my bundle, from page 36 onwards, you were charged.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it seems like both accused were charged with all the same offences right up to number 41.

MR WAGENER: That's right, but you were acquitted on a number of these charges.

MR MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR WAGENER: And you were convicted - and the charges that you were convicted on are those incidents referred to on page 20 when you were asked for further particulars.

and there you stated the incidents that you applied for and those were the incidents where you were convicted, so you only ask for amnesty for those incidents, that's the way I read your application.

MR MNCUBE: Ja, that is including the landmines where I was involved.

MR WAGENER: Yes, but those were ones where you were convicted in a criminal Court.

MR MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR WAGENER: And those are the incidents that you set out on page 20 of the bundle.

MR MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR WAGENER: And that does not include, the way I understand the situation, you're not asking for amnesty for any of the landmines laid by the other group of six.

MR MNCUBE: Ja, the other group of six, I'm not asking amnesty for that because they acted independently under their own Commander.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR MNCUBE: Right and we have our own Commander this side.

MR WAGENER: Right.

MR MNCUBE: So that's why even at the end of the day the Court did not find me guilty of what happened on the other side, but found me guilty of what happened with the other six where I was involved.

MR WAGENER: Yes. No I wanted to clear a possible misunderstanding that you are only asking for amnesty for the incidents where you group of six, where that group was involved and not where the group of six of Mr Nondula was involved, you're not asking for that, that's the way I read your application.

MR MNCUBE: Because I was not involved with that.

MR WAGENER: Who were the members, who were the other members of your group of six?

MR MNCUBE: It was myself and Mbuli. The other four, I think they are late by now.

CHAIRPERSON: We know of Chilies and who else?

MR MNCUBE: I can't even remember their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what Chilies' real name was?

MR MNCUBE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Agrippa? Agrippa, do you know what his name was?

MR MNCUBE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Who were the other members of the group of Agrippa apart from Mr Nondula?

MR MNCUBE: You mean the group that I was involved with?

CHAIRPERSON: The other group. We know that Agrippa was the Commander. We know that Mr Nondula was a member, do you know who the other four people were in the other group?

MR MNCUBE: No, I can't remember. I can't remember their names.

MR WAGENER: Do you know their MK names?

MR MNCUBE: I'm not sure if Terrence was in their group or in our group. He was in our group, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Terrence?

MR MNCUBE: Ja, it's an MK name, that one.

MR WAGENER: Okay, I'll accept that you can't remember. Prior to this operation, did you group of twelve receive any training in landmines and how you should go about placing them or setting them?

MR MNCUBE: Yes, Sir, we did some ...(indistinct) before we came in the country.

MR WAGENER: What was the nature of this training?

MR MNCUBE: Sorry?

MR WAGENER: What was the nature of this training?

MR MNCUBE: I will say it was just a refresher training because we have done it before in Angola, we have done it Shemenye, it was just a refresher course so that people can refresh themselves as to how to plant mine, to time the mines, how quick to dig, things like that.

MR WAGENER: You testified in a criminal Court that you had no specific experience or training in the usage of landmines, was that a lie?

MR MNCUBE: You mean in Court?

MR WAGENER: Yes in Court. Yes, in the Criminal Court.

MR MNCUBE: Ja, that time it was a different situation then.

MR WAGENER: So you lied in Court?

MR MNCUBE: Yes, I lied then because it was not about TRC, it was another Court under apartheid regime, so one was - I mean I had no choice but to try to protect myself wherever possible.

MR WAGENER: So would you say that this group of twelve, the larger group, they were trained operatives in explosives and specifically landmines? You were a trained group of operatives when it came to landmines specifically?

MR MNCUBE: Well I would say so, yes.

MR WAGENER: Or was it a case that only a few of the twelve were , if I may refer to it as explosive experts and the others merely accompanied and carried the weaponry and so on.

MR MNCUBE: I'm not sure if I will say there were some experts but as far as I'm concerned, I will say all of us were experts, that's why we were tasked with that mission, because we were experts in laying the landmines.

MR WAGENER: As you sit here today, Mr Mncube, how do you feel about this landmine operation?

MR MNCUBE: how do I feel about the landmine operations?

MR WAGENER: Yes, or campaign.

MR MNCUBE: The campaign?

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR MNCUBE: Well for me I would say it was a well done job, as far as I'm concerned. I don't know other people how do they look at it because we carried out the order and the order was accomplished as we were ordered.

MR WAGENER: But we know that the real military targets were not primarily hit, but civilian targets were hit. We know that today. Do you still say it was a job well done?

MR MNCUBE: I still stand by that, yes, it was a job well done because the area that we were told to go and work is the area that was designated by our Commanders.

MR WAGENER: Chairman, I've got no further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer, any questions?

MR DE BEER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DE BEER: I would just like to add, if you would have known that your landmine is going to kill a civilian, would you still have planted that landmine at that specific spot, or road or field?

MR MNCUBE: Well, if I'd known earlier on that we was going to kill civilians, I don't think we would have carried out that kind of operation, but we went there with a clear mind that we were attacking a military target.

MR DE BEER: Even if you did not achieve that military target and you killed far more civilians than military personnel, do you still feel that you achieved your military objective?

MR MNCUBE: Well it's not for me really to say - okay let me put it this way. As you said our late President, Oliver Tambo, at the end of the day was not happy about the land campaign, it was for them to make that kind of a decision up there but we on the ground, I still believe that it was a well done job, though civilians died and if we knew that we were attacking civilians, we wouldn't have done that, we would not hurt civilians purposely.

MR DE BEER: You said that - or there were some questions raised with regard to the landmine campaign in general and I believe that the command structure at that stage, the NEC, informed you that they were not satisfied that enough reconnaissance was carried out in the event of more civilians being killed than military personnel, so would you say that they were actually not being truthful when they said that this mission was a failure?

MR MNCUBE: Come again.

MR DE BEER: When you command structure said that they had their doubts of the effectiveness of this operation in planting these landmines, would you say that they were not being truthful in saying that this mission as such was a failure.

MR MNCUBE: Well I would believe that it was a failure because later landmine operations ceased to take place.

MR DE BEER: One last question, are you proud that you actually achieved your objectives in planting the landmines, or are you still proud that you actually killed women and children and other civilians in the act of planting landmines?

MR MNCUBE: If I can put it this way, I have no regrets at all for things that I did in good faith. I don't know if I answer your question.

MR DE BEER: No more questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: None, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions from me Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mncube, thank you, that concludes your testimony.

MR KOOPEDI: And Chairperson, that will in fact conclude all the evidence we intend to tender in respect of Mr Mncube and I should go on to say that concludes the evidence of the applicants, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Wagener, what is the situation? Are you going to be calling any witnesses?

MR WAGENER: Chairman, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: To testify or to make a statement?

MR WAGENER: My client wishes to testify. My estimation thereof is about 30 minutes to 45 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr de Beer?

MR DE BEER: As far as I know and as far as I have discussed with my client, he's not going to testify, but I would like, Mr Chairperson, to take into account that I will discuss this matter with him this evening and in the event that he will be willing to come through and testify, I would just like the Commission to take that into account, that time span.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Wagener, do you want to continue now?

MR WAGENER: Chairman, I'm not sure what your programme looks like tomorrow. I'm slightly in your hands. I would prefer to commence tomorrow morning, even if it is somewhat earlier than today, but we are in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I sincerely hope it would be somewhat earlier than today, seeing we only started after lunch. It would seem in any even that we won't be finishing this matter tomorrow because there's have to be argument as well and Mr de Beer might - but would it be possible to start at 9 o'clock in the morning because we'd like to finish. We have another matter on the roll which we would like to get on straight away after that and hopefully, if we don't finish it, make large inroads into that. Yes, I think then if we could start at half past eight then, if - that would be good. I'd then just like to say that we'll adjourn now to continue with the hearing at half past eight in the morning and when we will be commencing with the evidence of the witness to be called by Mr Wagener and I'd just like to apologise to the people who stayed later than they expected, but we started late, we just wanted to get as far as possible in this matter. Thank you.

We'll now adjourn until half past eight tomorrow.