--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. These proceedings will be simultaneously translated and if you wish to benefit from the translation, you must be in possession of one of these devices. I see the sound engineer is handing them out. You've just got to tune into the correct channel for your language and you'll get the translation.

Before we start, I'd like to briefly introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Francis Bosman. She's a member of the Amnesty Committee and she comes from the Cape. On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni. Mr Sibanyoni is also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an attorney from Pretoria and I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a Judge of the High Court and I'm attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court.

We will today be listening to the applications of Messrs Z A Mhlongo and A M Masil, I'm not quite sure how you pronounce it and at this stage I would request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicants in this matter and I'm from the Eastern Cape in East London. Thank.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Chairperson, I'm Adv J A van der Heever. I'm representing the Bouwer family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever. Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson the first applicant to testify will be Zweli Absolon Mhlongo, Chairperson and he will be speaking Zulu.

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo's application commences at page 1 of the bundle of documents before us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mhlongo, is it correct that you were born on the 20th May 1972 in Alexander?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how far have you gone to school?

MR MHLONGO: I went as far as Standard 4.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell, Mr Mhlongo, when did you join PAC?

MR MHLONGO: In 1986.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How old were you when you joined PAC?

MR MHLONGO: 14 years.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct that you indeed went to exile and when did you go to exile?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you tell the Committee which year did you got to exile?

MR MHLONGO: 1987.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct that in exile you joined APLA which is the military wing of the PAC?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, where were you trained as an APLA cadre?

MR MHLONGO: In Uganda as well as Tanzania.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How long did your training take?

MR MHLONGO: Two years in Uganda and one year in Tanzania.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee in which field were you trained?

MR MHLONGO: I was trained in infantry.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now Mr Mhlongo, when did you come back to the country?

MR MHLONGO: In 93.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At what time in 93? The beginning of the year, the middle of the year, or at the end of the year?

MR MHLONGO: On the 10th of May 1993.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say that the year 1993 was the year in which the Commander of APLA, Sabelo Pama declared the year of the Great Storm in which you came back.

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Mhlongo, when you came inside the country, how many were you, or were you alone?

MR MHLONGO: There were four of us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Tell the Committee about those. Who were those people?

MR MHLONGO: I cannot recall their surnames, they are people residing in different places. We all came in one plane. One that I can remember is Shepherd Mogale.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Mr Mhlongo, you are applying for amnesty for two incidents. Can you tell the Committee whether at the time you came inside the country, did you become active in APLA activities or not?

MR MHLONGO: On arrival on the 10th of May, I spent some time in the township until around September, October, up until Moses Motapo came to fetch me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Can you - Chairperson Moses Motapo is the one who has been referred in most of the applications as Morapapa, Chairperson. He has been mentioned in many applications Chairperson. I've been given his name as Moses Motapo, but the others knew him as Morapapa or Moss. Thank you Chairperson.

Now can you tell us what did Moses Motapo say to you?

MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo was one with whom I was training in Uganda and Tanzania and I was not surprised when he came. I knew he wanted us to discuss APLA matters, maybe to go out on a mission because that is what we were trained for. When he came to Alexander I told him - he actually told me that we should go to the Northern Province where he was staying.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue.

MR MHLONGO: So we arrived in the Northern Province around September.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say we arrived in the Northern Province, who are you talking about?

MR MHLONGO: I'm referring to Moses Motapo. We only went to the Northern Province because he wanted to show me his homes, he has two homes. There's one in Pietersburg and another one in Alexander, so he wanted to show me his home in the Northern Province, but we then came back to Alexander Township.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue, what happened?

MR MHLONGO: In 1994 in February we went to the Northern Province. It was himself and Lebohang, whose other name is Silo as well as Ashley, there were four of us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee about Silo. How did you - did you know Silo before and how did you know him?

MR MHLONGO: I knew him. He was a member of APLA. He too was trained, so I knew him from Tanzania. Actually I knew him from Alexander Township before we went into exile, so I knew him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your co-applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No Chairperson it's the other one who I understand escaped.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So the people who went to the Northern Province was himself, Motapo, Lebohang also known as Silo and Ashley.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. Ashley is ...

CHAIRPERSON: Is Ashley the co-accused?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So four of them went?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Now did you have, whilst you were in Alexander, did you have any contact with him before you went to the Northern Province? Did you have any contact with Silo who is Lebohang?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we resided in the same street, in the same yard.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now how did you know Ashley?

MR MHLONGO: I knew him through Lebohang. He was a friend or known to Lebohang.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now tell the Committee, you moved or went to the Northern Province. Carry on.

MR MHLONGO: We went to the Northern Province in February. Upon arrival we were based at Moses Motapo's home, that's where we spent our time. Moses Motapo was our unit Commander, the four of us, he is the one who was commanding us. We were engaged in APLA activities. It so happened one day that Moses said we should go and look for our targets. It was on the 6th of February. We left and one person who knew that place was Ashley because he once studied there, so he knew the territory and he was our driver. He accompanied us and we went to Ebenezer Dam and Morapapa knew that place and before we went to that place, Moses Motapo said he knew that place from long ago and he said that place is always frequented by the boers. It's actually a dam. He wanted us to go there to attack the boers and we went.

It was on the 6th on a Sunday and upon arrival, it was round about 4 o'clock and there were no people, maybe we arrived late after they had left and when we came back - when we returned actually we came across a vehicle which was carrying dogs. We just drove on and one white person who was driving an Exa, a sky blue Exa, came along and as he was coming from a distance .,..(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, driving a what? What was he driving?

MR MHLONGO: He was driving an Exa.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what's an Exa? A motor vehicle, a Nissan?

MR MHLONGO: A Nissan Exa, Chairperson. It's a two door sedan.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MHLONGO: It's a two door sedan, a Mazda - a Nissan, I mean to say.

As the vehicle was coming from a distance Moses Motapo said: "This is our first target" and when we got nearer, you see the road on which we were travelling was so narrow, such that one car had to wait for another in order to pass and this white person stopped and Ashley was driving and we had firearms. I was carrying a rifle and Moses Motapo and Lebohang had a hand grenade in his possession. Only Ashley was not armed because he was driving. Moses Motapo told him to stop this white person and pretended as if he was asking something and when the car came to a stop, myself and Moss opened the doors and removed him from the car and made him lie down and we searched him and we found nothing and we wanted to ascertain that he didn't have a firearm and he didn't. We put him in the boot. I cannot recall whether we put him in the boot of the vehicle in which he was travelling or our boot. We drove him to some place called Boyne near Moria. There was some bush there and we took him out and took him to the bush. It was myself and Moses who removed him from the boot. The other one and Lebohang, Ashley and Lebohang remained behind in the vehicle and we told Ashley and Lebohang to signal to us because we wanted to shoot the person and they would have to signal if there was no car approaching so that we could shoot the person. I remember Moses asking him which organisation he belonged to here in South Africa and he indicated that he was an AWB member and we told him that we are APLA members and we made him lie down and we shot him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What else did you ask him?

MR MHLONGO: We undressed him and we found a bank card and we asked him how much he had and we wanted the numbers for the card. He gave us the numbers but we didn't trust him. We threatened him and we promised not to kill him if he gave us the numbers and he gave us the numbers and we took his canvas shoes, his tackies and we left him there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did you do after that?

MR MHLONGO: After that we left him there. We went into a car. There were two vehicles now. Myself and Ashley drove in a BMW and Lebohang and Moses Motapo drove this white person's Exa. Myself and Ashley went actually straight to Pietersburg in town, we wanted to make a withdrawal from the card that we took from the white person.

Myself and Ashley drove in Ashley's vehicle to Pietersburg, we wanted to draw some money from the card obtained from the white person and Lebohang and Silo drove in the white man's Exa. They went to Motapo's place and when we came back from Pietersburg on the same night, or actually when we got to Pietersburg, we discovered that the car - the account had about One Hundred and something and it didn't have much money. We came back and informed the other ones.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you draw that money?

MR MHLONGO: Yes we did and we left Ashley's vehicle at Morapapa's home and we drove in this white man's car to Alexandra.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue. What happened in Alexander?

MR MHLONGO: On the Sunday evening upon arrival in Alexander, we had to go and sell the vehicle. I think it was on a Monday, if not Tuesday morning, we went to 9th Avenue and we sold this vehicle for R7 000.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you get the money?

MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo showed us R700. We don't know what happened to the other money because he's the one who was negotiating the deal, negotiating the price but the money that we saw was R700.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean the money that you saw?

MR MHLONGO: I mean the money that he only got from the person was R700 and that is the money that we used to go back to Pietersburg.

CHAIRPERSON: 10% deposit probably on the vehicle.

MR MHLONGO: 10% deposit.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you said he sold the vehicle for R7 000 but you only saw R700.

MR MHLONGO: I think so. That's what we discussed with Moses. We don't know whether they gave him the full money or not, but he only came with R700 to us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you explain to the Committee, were you present when this transaction with this person to whom the car was sold, were you present when the whole transaction took place between Moses and this person?

MR MHLONGO: No, I was not.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The only thing you know is that the agreed price that this car would be sold at R7 000?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And Moses came back with an amount of R700?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now just whilst you are there, you are telling the Committee that this car was sold at R7 000 but in your statement, in your confession to the Magistrate you told them that you stripped the car and sold the car parts, of the car, can you explain that to the Committee?

MR MHLONGO: In fact we sold the vehicle, we did not strip it of its parts. We sold it to the person in the 9th Avenue. The police were beating us up and we were trying to protect the other one, that's why we told the police that we stripped the vehicle and sold its parts to various people, because we were trying to protect this person. We didn't want the police to go to this person.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you then proceed to the second incident?

MR MHLONGO: Okay. The second incident was, should I say we came back on a Wednesday.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say we came back, to Pietersburg?

MR MHLONGO: Correct. We went back to Pietersburg on Wednesday, it was myself and Moses. Upon arrival at the taxi rank, Ashley and others were waiting for us in a BMW and we went to Motapo's place, that's where we were based and nothing happened that week until Friday. On that Friday Moses said we should go around and reconnoitre the area to try and get another target and we went, it was on Friday night. I didn't know the Northern Province. I didn't know the places that we were going to. We went to some place around 10 at night at Rotwane and Moses saw a shop and he told Ashley to stop the vehicle, which he did and then he sent Ashley to go to the shop to buy and check the situation in the meantime so that we can go in. Ashley went in, bought some cigarettes and he came back and informed Moses that the situation was conducive for us to go in and we stopped around the shop and myself and Moses went out and we left Ashley and Lebohang behind and I was following Moses from behind. We had rifles in our possession and when we entered the door of the shop, Moses opened fire. He shot the father and the mother and there was a young boy, who could have been around 14 years old and when Moses shot the father and the mother, this young boy managed to get hold of Moses and I too was inside and they were wrestling over the firearm and Moses said: "You see what this boy's doing, shoot him" and I shot him. Even though Moses had not instructed me so, I would have shot the young boy. I shot him and I thought he had died because I shot him at close range, only later I discovered that he didn't die.

We went out. We went back into the car and drove away, but the vehicle did not drive a long distance and it broke down. We left the vehicle there and took our bag with firearms and ran away until the following day which was on a Saturday. On Saturday morning we wanted to get a vehicle, or hike away and the first vehicle that we came across was a police vehicle and the police apparently had surrounded the whole area. They arrested us and we were made to lie down, the three of us and Ashley was not there because we had planned that because the vehicle is not a stolen vehicle, he should run into the bush and later he would claim that he was robbed of his vehicle, so that he was not there when we were arrested.

We were made to lie down and Moses tried to run away as we were lying down, because we had our bags hidden just nearby so that these people should not see that we had firearms and when Moses rose, trying to get to the bags, one white man shot him and he died and that's how we were arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then did you at the shop where the two people were shot and the son was also shot, did you take anything? Other than shooting them, what else did you do?

MR MHLONGO: We took nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of firearms did you personally use and what sort of firearm did Moses use?

MR MHLONGO: We had AK47 rifles in our possession and Lebohang had a grenade, an F1 grenade.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you were arrested. What happened after your arrest?

MR MHLONGO: Okay. We were separated, the three of us. I was taken to Warmbaths and Ashley I think was taken to Naboomspruit and Lebohang was taken to Nylstroom. We were detained under Section 29 of 1982 and investigations were conducted for about ten days.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is there any stage that you escaped from prison? At what stage?

MR MHLONGO: May the question please be repeated?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say there was a stage that you escaped from prison?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about that?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Why did you run away and how?

MR MHLONGO: I ran away from, I escaped actually from Potgietersrus Police Station. I was in the company of Lebohang. Ashley didn't come along with us because he was sick on that day. We escaped through the roof. We sawed the rafters of the roof and fled. We escaped because we didn't want to be in prison.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, by all what you did, what were you trying to achieve?

MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo, he resided in the Northern Province and we resided in Alexandra and he told me that we should capture the whole of the Northern Province and put it under APLA so that we could realise our objectives, the objective was to capture the Northern Province.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How were you going to capture by killing the people that you killed?

MR MHLONGO: We were not in a hurry, so we were to do it little by little and at the same time we were trying to organise people, because we also had new recruits in the Northern Province, so we had decided that we'd also try and get hold of arms and ammunition and we wanted to increase the number of our group.

MR MBANDAZAYO: If one says to you that you killed only white people and that you attack was just a racist attack what would you say to that? Or it was a plain robbery, it had nothing to do with politics, what would you say to that?

MR MHLONGO: I would dispute that because even black police people in the area would have been targeted, unfortunately we didn't come across them. We would have carried out similar operations against them and rob them of their firearms, so the whites were one group of people about whom we were sure we were going to get firearms from.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, what do you say to the family? Especially the Bouwer family who is present, the son who survived in the incident, in your last incident, what do you say to him?

MR MHLONGO: To them I'll say that now that I'm here before this Truth and Reconciliation Commission, I'm trying to reconcile with them. I would like for them to forgive me for my deeds. I wish they understand that we did what we did during those days because we were APLA members, but now that I'm here to try and reconcile with them, may they please forgive me?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the first applicant, Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van der Heever, would you like to put any questions to the applicant?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, you've made reference to boers, did you refer to Afrikaans speaking whites or whites in general?

MR MHLONGO: Here I'm referring to white persons because I cannot differentiate between boer and a white person, or should I say a boer and any other white persons.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: This incident took place two months before the 1994 election, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: The Interim Constitution was already in place, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I would say so.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And the date of the election was already announced, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: You've also made this confession, or this statement to Mr Steenkamp the Magistrate in Tzaneen and you say that - is that statement correct, or is it ...

CHAIRPERSON: We know one aspect that isn't, but besides that aspect relating to the selling of the car parts, is it correct?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Is it correct? Because Mr Mhlongo, I want to ask you, on page 46 of the document handed to us by the kind lady from the Amnesty Committee, on page 46 and referring to the incident in Roedtan:

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately where is this?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: The middle of page 46.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just start again.

MR VAN DER HEEVER:

so you wanted to rob the shop or the cafe, according to this statement.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, the statement about the money by the police, you see here we were being beaten up. When we got into the shop, Moses Motapo did not speak to these people about money or anything, he just opened fire and I followed suit and the aim was not to take money because he didn't say anything to these people about lying down and giving us money.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: My question is simple, Mr Mhlongo. Are these your words? Did you say to Mr Steenkamp the Chief Magistrate of Tzaneen,:

MR MHLONGO: I would agree and disagree with that. I cannot recall because there are so many Magistrates that I spoke to at the time and I was under interrogation, so that I was not conscious of many things that I was doing at the time.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: I want to refer you to - your co-applicant also made a very lengthy statement and according to his statement on page 77 of the documents handed to us, Mr Chairperson, paragraph 25, you co-applicant said, and I'm going to read to you in Afrikaans:

So you wanted to go to the Standard Bank at Mankweng, Turfloop, to rob the Standard Bank, according to your co-applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that?

MR MHLONGO: I think he's the one who is better placed to respond to that but what I know is that, it was not within our intention to rob, there were so many things that we had to do. Yes, we needed money.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, did you go to the Standard Bank Turfloop and did you keep the Standard Bank Turfloop under observation?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we did. Yes, we kept it under observation.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And I also want to refer you to paragraph 28 of your co-applicant's statement to the police on page 78 Mr Chairperson.

that's the shop at Roedtan,

and that's - your co-applicant then said to the police:

What do you say to that? According to your co-applicant you went to the restaurant in Roedtan, not to - for political purposes, but to rob the restaurant or the cafe, the shop.

MR MHLONGO: There was no robbery committed at Roedtan.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr van der Heever is asking you is, what he's saying is that your co-applicant in this statement said that you went to Roedtan with the intention of robbing a shop. We know that there was no actual robbery, but you went there with the intention to rob.

MR MHLONGO: We went there because we wanted the money, as I've explained before that we did not have enough money and even the petrol was not enough in the car. We went there because we wanted money, but when we got there, Moses did not tell those people that he was looking for money, he just fired.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you went there to get money?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Now ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: He also said because you did not have petrol in the car, was the purpose of robbing money to enable you to get petrol?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we were looking for money to put fuel in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: These mikes are playing up. Sometimes the one won't come on if the other's on.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, unfortunately we haven't got the full Court record of the trial by the Honourable Justice Botha, but on page 141, page 493 of his Sentence, he said, and maybe I just want to ask your comment otherwise I'm going to request the Honourable Commission to get a full copy of the proceedings of your trial:

and I'm quoting, page 141 Mr Chairperson, the 7th line from the bottom:

Can you perhaps tell the Honourable Commission why the Judge has made this remark that you got disillusioned with the organisation, or is this just a remark by the Honourable Judge?

MR MHLONGO: I do not understand what that means. If you can explain further, because I do not understand what is meant by being disillusioned. Please repeat that phrase.

CHAIRPERSON: Well being disillusioned means that you're no longer happy with it, you're no longer satisfied with it, it's not fulfilling your expectations and I take it the organisation here referred to is the APLA.

MR MHLONGO: Yes. I did mention that but those were personal differences in our structure as APLA, but those differences wouldn't cause me to disrespect APLA, those were only personal differences.

CHAIRPERSON: Personal differences with whom?

MR MHLONGO: As the organisation, within the members of the organisation.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you were not happy with the organisation or certain members of the organisation, according to what you've said.

MR MHLONGO: I was satisfied, I didn't have problems, but each and every person has got his own personal view and people would listen to one another, but the conflict in views doesn't necessarily mean that there is a serious conflict in the organisation, but there would be issues or ideas that we wouldn't agree upon, but then that wouldn't necessarily mean that I wouldn't involve myself in the operations as an APLA member.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Who gave you instructions to go to a shop at Roedtan, or a cafe, restaurant at Roedtan, Mr Mhlongo?

MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo was the one who issued the instructions because even when we were in exile he had been my Commander since then. Even here inside he remained my Commander so he was actually issuing the instructions.

MR VAN DER HEEVER; Mr Mhlongo, the young man you refer to, who fired the shot at the young man seated next to me, who was plus minus 14 years of age on that particular day?

MR MHLONGO: I did, I fired a shot.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And during the trial have you noticed that he is partially disabled because of that injury he sustained on that day?

MR MHLONGO: During the trial I couldn't see him. Even now I cannot identify him, but I heard from the other person that this person is still alive. Yes, he is crippled but I couldn't identify him then.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, I've already questioned you about the bank at Mankweng, or Turfloop as it's also called. You also went to Lebowakgomo to try and rob.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you please just spell that name for me?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Lebowakgomo, Mr Chairperson.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we did go to Lebowakgomo to reconnoitre the place and I have already mentioned that we didn't have enough money, but we did not go there to rob as criminals, but all we needed was the money in order to further the objectives of APLA. It's not that we wanted to go there and rob the bank and get the money that we didn't even know what to do with the money, but we knew that we were going to use the money in our structure.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But I want to read to you the statement your colleague, your co-applicant has made.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you give a reference please?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Paragraph 26, page 78 Mr Chairperson. I'm sorry. I'm going to read to you the whole paragraph.

Is that correct? You must come back at a later stage to rob the bank?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is true. We did go to Lebowakgomo to reconnoitre the place. We didn't know the place, but Ashley knew the place very well. There was a bank in the complex and some Post Offices and when we got there indeed we saw the Fidelity Guard vehicle with money, but we did not do a thing that day because of the fact that we were not in a good condition, we were not very strong, we were only four and we had only two rifles and those gentlemen were six. We had to go back to Alexandra and try and organise more people so that we can go back to the bank and get the money. I have already mentioned that we were not taking money just for fun, but we wanted to support our operation.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But on that day, resulting from a question asked by one of the Honourable Members of the Amnesty Committee, you did not - you needed fuel on that particular day, not in future. I want to carry on with that same paragraph.

and this shop does not refer to the shop in Roedtan, am I correct, Mr Mhlongo? Am I correct?

MR MHLONGO: The shop that we drove past, it's the shop where we killed the people is Roedtan, the Sunshine Cafe, that is the only shop that we got to. I don't know any other shop except for that one.

MR VAN DER HEEVER:

MR MHLONGO: As I mentioned initially that this happened some time ago. I'm beginning to remember now. That was not the Roedtan, it is another place, the one that I'm referring to, it's another shop. Yes, it is true that we got in there with Morapapa, but we did not do a thing.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And I want to read from paragraph 27 as well on the same page, page 78 Mr Chairperson.

When you arrived at the shop, from paragraph 28, page 78, that particular shop was closed. Is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And then you decided to rob the shop of the cafe in Roedtan where the Bouwer family were killed, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct, because the Roedtan was on our way to Alexandra and we realised that we are running short of fuel, so we decided that if we can get some money in the cafe, we would manage to get petrol and get to our destination.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Chairperson, may I have a word with Mr Bouwer please?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you. I've got no further questions. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MS MTANGA: I have one question Chairperson, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Mhlongo, it seems to me, based on the statement of your co-applicant, you had many operations planned concerning robbery, if you had obtained this money from this place that you had planned to rob, what would you have done with the money?

MR MHLONGO: I cannot say for sure, but the only person who would know was Motapo because he was the Commander of our unit and he wouldn't do anything, he would report to someone else, the High Commander of APLA. If we managed to get the money from the bank, he knew what was going to be done, but all I know is that we did not have enough firearms and even the accommodation was not what we wanted, so we really needed the money.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson. Why did you return to South Africa? Who told you to come back?

MR MHLONGO: Our leadership told us to come back.

ADV BOSMAN: But who gave you instruction to come back? Who was your Commander then?

MR MHLONGO: This decision was taken by the leadership. There's no specific person who came to me personally to tell me that I should come back to South Africa, but all the APLA members came in large numbers and we were instructed by the leadership that we should come back home.

ADV BOSMAN: What were you instructed to come and do here?

MR MHLONGO: We knew exactly what we were going to do. I knew what was expected of me. I knew that I was supposed to go on with APLA operations. We had different mandates. I am talking about myself as an individual. I know what was expected of me.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you know this?

MR MHLONGO: I knew that from long ago, before we were even told by the Leadership to come back home, I knew that while I was still in the APLA camps, I knew very well what was to happen.

ADV BOSMAN: What was to happen?

MR MHLONGO: I knew that when I come here, I should fight the white people until we are told to stop. I knew very well why I went to the exile. I went there to get training so that I'll be able to be involved in the battle with the whites and I was always waiting for someone to come and fetch me to continue with the APLA operation.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you come back?

MR MHLONGO: I came through repatriation.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have a firearm with you?

MR MHLONGO: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you obtain the firearm?

MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo was the one who had ammunition all the weapons that we were using were obtained from him and he was a person who would travel to Zimbabwe, he would get firearms there in Zimbabwe.

ADV BOSMAN: And with whom did you have differences?

MR MHLONGO: I have mentioned that those were the members, we had our political differences.

ADV BOSMAN: Can't you just tell us a little bit more about with whom these political differences were and what these political differences were, what about?

MR MHLONGO: It was due to operations that were supposed to be undertaken. I was with Matshipape who was residing at Vosloorus. He was a President and we went to stay in Vosloorus and we did not want to operate there. That was a problem because Matshipape was expecting us to operate in the East Rand and we did not want that. That was the source of our differences and that is the cause, that is the reason that led to Morapapa wanting us to leave for the Northern Province.

ADV BOSMAN: If you were prepared to operate in the Northern Province, why were you not prepared to operate on the East Rand?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I may chip in. I know it will be difficult to the applicant, Chairperson, because this was a highly volatile situation within PAC. If I may throw some light, there was a time when there was a group called Wise Doges which was opposed to the leadership of Makwetu, so Chairperson, that's the reason why the applicant seems to be reluctant because it was something which was - so there was some sort of division so in a way APLA found itself in the cross-fire where they have to take sides, you know, if they go to this side they will be taken as siding, so Chairperson, I would like the Committee not to dwell much on that. So that's the reason the applicant seems to be reluctant, because it was something which involved the High Office of PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think you know he said that there were problems, he can answer that question, I don't think it's an unfair question.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm not saying it's unfair, but looking at it, he has already indicated that Mrs Tshipapo was the Women’s League of the PAC, so she wanted them to operate there, so the reason why I'm bringing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just to give us the background.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I know where it goes now because he seems to be reluctant because he knows that he will be digging something which has already been forgotten, so there was indeed conflict within PAC regarding that, so it affected APLA in terms of operations because they were taken by some that you can't operated in this because you belong to that group, so that was the problem. So that's why I'm requesting the Committee at least to be cautious when it is dealing with that aspect regarding the applicant.

ADV BOSMAN: Just one other aspect. You were given R700 I understood, just correct me if I'm wrong. You were given R700 to come back to the Northern Province, is that right?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And then you ran out of fuel. What happened to the R700?

MR MHLONGO: As I have mentioned that the person who was in charge of the finance was Moses Motapo. We managed to leave Alexandra using public transport because the car was still in Pietersburg at the time and when we left Alexandra it was myself and Moses Motapo. Ashley and Lebohang were already in Pietersburg. Myself and Moses Motapo used public transport to get to Pietersburg. We used the money because if you have to move from Alexandra to Pietersburg, it's quite a distance, that is how we spent the money and Moses had the money.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you telling us that you spent the whole R700 to get from Jo'burg to Pietersburg, two people?

MR MHLONGO: No, I am not implying that we spent all the money, but yes we did use the money and even used the money when we got to Pietersburg, the four of us, because we would go and reconnoitre places, we were not stationed at one place, so R700 is not much.

ADV BOSMAN: Now there's something else that confuses me a bit. You kept on reconnoitring places and it would seem they were mostly banks, and yet you said that you were instructed by Moses to target the boers. Could you perhaps explain that, or I did I misunderstand you?

MR MHLONGO: That doesn't meant that we were only checking with the banks, we managed to go to Ebenezer Dam, but our main aim was to get the money and reduce the strength of the white people in the Northern Province. Our target was not the bank only, but we also aimed at reducing the strength of the white people, that is why we managed to go to Ebenezer and take the white man and kill him and go to Roedtan and kill people there. So we did not have only one aim.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson, a follow-up to the question by Adv Bosman. If I understand you correctly, you had two aims or two purposes, to get money, number one and secondly to kill white people. Did I understand you correctly?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR SIBANYONI: And with regard to the R700, my understanding is that that money was utilised during your travels, all of it, nothing was left, did I also understand you correctly there?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: If you were robbing money for the PAC, why was it not handed over to the coffers of the PAC, or of APLA?

MR MHLONGO: We couldn't take R700 to the coffers. R700 is a very small amount, it's the one that we were supposed to use because we were staying at Morapapa's place and no one was employed there. We had to buy food, fuel and travel. R700 was not much to be handed over to the organisation. Even if we managed to get a large amount of money at the bank, we wouldn't take it to the organisation. The only person who was responsible for the money was the one who was going to take the money to the organisation.

MR SIBANYONI: And that was Moses? Who was supposed to take the money to the organisation?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct, because he was our Commander. I didn't have any powers to take the money to the High Command.

MR SIBANYONI: Was Moses accountable to any person you knew or any structure you knew, or was he totally using his discretion?

MR MHLONGO: No, he was not taking initiative, he was somebody else's subordinate, Letlapa Mphahlele was his High Command and even the firearms, he would go to Zimbabwe and come with ammunition and firearms, he is the person who was in contact with Letlapa Mphahlele most of the times.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you only had two firearms, two AK47, to whom were they allocated?

MR MHLONGO: They were given to Moses Motapo.

MR SIBANYONI: So all four of you were supposed to be using only two firearms?

MR MHLONGO: No. I mentioned before that when we came to South Africa, we came through repatriation and we couldn't have firearms. Moses Motapo came illegally and he didn't fly from the exile to here, that's why he managed to bring in firearms and he would go and get them from Zimbabwe. The four of us had only two rifles and it was not necessary for us to own rifles, the four of us. There was a person who was driving the car for us, Ashley, so it was not necessary for him to carry a firearm. Myself and Moses Motapo had firearms and Lebohang was using a grenade and he would be with Ashley guarding the place with Ashley in the car. The people who would go out for operation was only myself and Moses.

MR SIBANYONI: I understood that the reason that you people decided to rob the shop at Roedtan was to get petrol. Now after attacking and shooting these people there, were you not surprised, or let me say, why didn't you look for money?

MR MHLONGO: When Morapapa got in and fired, the lights in the shop switched off and I don't know the reason. There were servants who were working there, three of them, three women who were working there, but we did not do anything to them. After firing the shots, the lights switched off and we didn't go look for money, we decided to get out of the shop.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to Ebenezer Dam and captured Mr Pypers, was it your intention to rob him as well?

MR MHLONGO: The intention is that we were looking for a firearm from Mr Pypers but when we did not get the firearm, we decided not to leave him alive, we decided to take him along to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR MHLONGO: Those were our intentions, to kill the whites, it was nothing uncommon. We knew that our duty was to kill the whites.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you serious that it was your intention to overtake the whole of the Northern Province, the four of you?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I am serious because I know very well that bit by bit our number would increase as I have said that we were busy organising the other comrades under the PAC banner, trying to show them the way, trying to explain our objectives to them. We had support and I knew that the number would go up and we would end up overpowering them in the Northern Province.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you, from what I've heard, appeared to be acquainted with the policies of PAC and APLA at that time.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, at the time I knew what I was fighting for, I was not just fighting but I knew very well where I'm supposed to get to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we've heard that Moses bought the Sowetan newspaper, so he read newspapers as well.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we would read newspapers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now the APLA called off the armed struggle on 16th of January 1994 and it was big news. A formal cessation of the armed struggle on the 16th of January. You were living in Alexandra at the time. You were reading newspapers, you were fully acquainted with the activities of APLA and PAC, why did you continue to operate after the cessation of the struggle by APLA?

MR MHLONGO: As I have mentioned initially that some of the things that led to political differences were among those and we were coming from the exile and we had suffered a lot there and we were trained and we were told of what to do when we come to South Africa and we knew very well in our minds that when we come to South Africa, we are supposed to fight the white people and we were not satisfied by that suspension of the arms struggle, that is why we left East Rand, because we didn't want anyone to disturb us, to tell us that we should put down arms, that is why we decided to come to Northern Province to continue with our operations and we were not the only unit who was against this idea of suspending the arms struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you committed these offences against the Pypers and the Bouwer family, you were then not acting on behalf of APLA and in the furtherance of its objectives.

MR MHLONGO: We were doing it for APLA because Moses would report to Letlapa Mphahlele and Letlapa Mphahlele was an APLA member and PAC member at the same time. They were also the people who were supporting us, that is why he was in a position to give Morapapa firearms to continue with our operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not find it unusual that you in your operations were using a car that could be traced to one of your members, in other words a legal car, a car that was registered in one of your member's names?

MR MHLONGO: No, we did not see that as a problem because when this car - when the car failed to start, leaving it there we had a plan and we told the owner of the car as to what to do in order for him to get his car. We did not have a problem using a legal car.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever, any questions arising out of questions that have been put?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: None, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll say that's none, because you couldn't get your button on. Ms Mtanga, any questions arising?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, thank you, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm calling the second applicant to the witness stand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, could you help me, how do you pronounce the name?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Masil.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Masil, is it correct that you were born on the 28th of June 1971?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you - is it correct that you were born in the Gauteng Province?

MR MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how far you went to school?

MR MASIL: Standard 10, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you join PAC?

MR MASIL: I joined PASO whilst I was at school.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So PASO is the Pan Africanist Youth Organisation which was the Student Wing of the PAC?

MR MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Masil, you - when did you join PASO, when did you join PAC proper, or you remained a member of PAC through PASO?

MR MASIL: I joined PAC in 1981. Apologies Chairperson 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was going to say otherwise you would have been ten years old. 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Masil, you have heard the testimony of the first applicant, do you confirm the evidence of the first applicant in as far as it relates to you?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you abide by that evidence of the first applicant?

MR MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And do you also want it to be incorporated as part of your evidence?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before I ask Mr van der Heever, if I could just ask a few questions. Did you ever join APLA?

MR MASIL: I never joined APLA outside, I joined APLA internally when I was involved in APLA operations.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR MASIL: 1994, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When in 1994?

MR MASIL: January 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you ever receive any military training?

MR MASIL: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So how could you become a member of APLA then if you've got no military training? I thought APLA was the army.

MR MASIL: That is correct Chairperson. I joined APLA because I was involved in the APLA operations.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they use your motor vehicle? I mean we heard they used yours.

MR MASIL: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it your own vehicle?

MR MASIL: Correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Registered in your name?

MR MASIL: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever, I've been requested to take a short adjournment, but I see that it is nearly ten to eleven so perhaps we could, instead of taking a short adjournment and coming back for a couple of minutes, we'll take the short tea adjournment now. We'll have a twenty minute tea adjournment thank you and we'll resume.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr van der Heever, do you have any questions to put to the applicant?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, the BMW was bought by your mother, is that correct? I'm referring to page 138 of the minutes of a document I've got.

Is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Now Mr Masil, you were represented by a certain Mr Botha during the criminal trial, is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Now I'm referring to page 142 of the minutes and page 494 of the criminal trial and your counsel made the following submission.

CHAIRPERSON: More or less whereabout in the page?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Line 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER HEEVER:

So according to your counsel you had no political motive.

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But was the submission made by your counsel correct? Is that the instruction you gave him?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, I instructed him that way.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, you made a very lengthy statement from page 71 to page 78, if I remember correctly, of the minutes and I want just to refer you to certain paragraphs. On page 72, paragraph 6, the last two lines:

Is that correct?

MR MASIL: I instructed him that I did not know, because I wanted to be acquitted and that's how the police promised me, but I knew that they were members of APLA.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you made a false statement?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, that's the way the SAP promised me, that I should try to be against my co-accused and then the Court would reduce my sentence.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Paragraph 7. According to your statement Silo requested you to take him to an engagement party in Pietersburg. Is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, that is the statement I gave the police. That is the statement I gave to the Court, but the truth is when we left Alexandra we were coming to Northern Province to do APLA operations.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Paragraph 10 of page 73:

Is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, that is the statement I gave to the police and my legal counsel.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: You did not instruct your counsel properly, is that correct? Is that what you're saying?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you lied to your counsel as well?

MR MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER:

Is that correct?

MR MASIL: Correct Chairperson, that's what I told the police and my legal counsel.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And the Court?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: During the criminal trial?

MR MASIL: Correct Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So did you go to a garage in Mooketsi to rob the garage?

MR MASIL: When we went to Mooketsi we did not go there to rob the garage, but we were going to do some observations and then to show them Northern Province, according to my knowledge.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But did you go to the garage at Mooketsi?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, we entered that garage at Mooketsi.

MR VAN DER HEEVER; And I'm referring to paragraph 11 on page 73:

Did you say so to the Court, in your statement and to your counsel?

MR MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Why didn't you rob the garage?

MR MASIL: Because we did not go there with the intention to rob that garage, we went there with the intention to observe the area as Morapapa has asked me to show them the area.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And why did you say to your counsel, to Court and in your statement you did not rob the garage because there were quite a number of taxis busy off-loading people?

MR MASIL: All those area we went to, the members of Murder and Robbery Unit gave me an advice to formulate my statement in such a way that we were supposed to rob all these areas, because the police were aware that I was not military trained, so they promised me much, that even in Court my sentence is not going to be the same as my co-applicant, because they were trained and I was not.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Why didn't you tell your counsel the truth, Mr Masil?

MR MASIL: I did not tell my legal counsel the truth, because I did not have opportunity to consult with him and then again I was using that advantage that I'm going to have a lighter sentence, as I was promised.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Did you go to Magoebaskloof Hotel?

MR MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And why did you go to Magoebaskloof Hotel?

MR MASIL: That is one of the reasons for us to show - that is the places where we went where we knew we will have an opportunity to meet white people there.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But there were obviously white people at the Magoebaskloof Hotel. There are always white people at Magoebaskloof Hotel, why didn't you do anything?

MR MASIL: All things we did, we did because we were instructed by Morapapa, so for us not to enter at Magoebaskloof Hotel and shoot people, it's because Morapapa instructed us to go and rob the area and leave.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil so according to you, you didn't go anywhere to rob anybody, is that correct?

MR MASIL: May you please rephrase your question?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: The question is, did you go to any place to rob anybody?

MR MASIL: No, Chairperson, we did not go to any particular place with the intention to rob, according to my knowledge.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Your co-applicant said that you needed petrol money and that's why you wanted to rob some of these places.

MR MASIL: It is true that we were ...(indistinct) money for petrol, so Morapapa instructed me that I should leave everything to his shoulders, he will see what to do.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So to which places did you go to rob for petrol money? Magoebaskloof Hotel, inter alia?

MR MASIL: We did not do anything at Magoebaskloof, we did not rob any person there.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But did you go there to look for an opportunity to rob for petrol money?

MR MASIL: Not in Magoebaskloof Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So where did you go to rob for petrol money, in the hope of getting money for petrol.

MR MASIL: If I remember well it is at Roedtan, the Sunshine cafe.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you went to the Bouwer's place to rob the cafe for petrol money? Is that what you're saying?

MR MASIL: That is what Morapapa explained, that we are supposed to find money for petrol at that particular place.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you went there with the sole purpose to look for money?

MR MASIL: Truly speaking, I did not know the entire intention as to whether are we going there only to rob for money for petrol or to kill whoever is in the shop.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: The following is also false and you gave false evidence before the Court, you gave false instruction to your counsel and your statement is wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: From which paragraph is that Mr van der Heever?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Page 74 paragraph 13, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Yes, that's true. The members of Murder and Robbery Unit in Pietersburg told me that in many instances I should say that to all these places we went with the intention to rob, not with the intention to kill white people, because they wanted me to be against, or to contradict my co-accused so that in Court I'll be acquitted, or my sentence would be lighter.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: This is also false and you gave false evidence and you gave your counsel false instructions.

MR MASIL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go at any stage to reconnoitre a Standard Bank?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson on two occasions, in Mankweng and in Lebowakgomo.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do that?

MR MASIL: I'm not able to explain because the instruction was from Mr Morapapa that we should go there and reconnoitre the area about the security arrangements and then we returned.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, but there are no whites employed by either the Standard bank at Mankweng and the Standard Bank at Lebowakgomo, nowhere.

MR MASIL: I don't know, but when we went to Mankweng, I saw three whites, two white males and one female. In Lebowakgomo I was not able to see any white person there.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But according to, on page 77 from your statement, paragraph 25, you kept the Standard Bank under observation with the purpose of robbing it. Is that correct?

MR MASIL: The intention to reconnoitre that Standard Bank was not to rob at that particular time, but we went there to reconnoitre to see the security arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the intention was to come back later and rob, otherwise why do it?

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And you did the same thing, according to your statement paragraph 26 at Lebowakgomo.

MR MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson. We arrived at Lebowakgomo. I was together with Silo Motapo. We entered the complex and we observed.

CHAIRPERSON: The bank?

MR MASIL: Not only the bank Chairperson, but we reconnoitred the whole complex.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Standard Bank Mankweng is on the campus of the University of the North, is that correct?

MR MASIL: No, Chairperson, it is outside the campus.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Adjacent to the campus?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And according to your statement, page 78, paragraph 26.

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: You can just repeat, the translator didn't catch what you said.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Page 78, paragraph 26. According to your statement:

the last sentence of that paragraph,

MR MASIL: Not in Lebowakgomo, but he said that on the way. There is a shop where we entered, where Moss and Zweli bought newspapers there, that is where Moss said when we return in the evening, we would pass there.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And you would rob it, or you must rob it?

MR MASIL: He said we should kill whites who were selling at that shop and then it should be robbed.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: This shop, how far out of Pietersburg is it? How far is it from Pietersburg?

MR MASIL: If I remember well, it is approximately 15 kilometres from Pietersburg.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And according to paragraph 27 on page 78 the plan was to rob the shop that evening. Is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But there are no people in the shop during the evening, Mr Masil.

MR MASIL: The truth is, we did not know when do they close that shop and then again we would not enter the shop if there were no people. We were supposed to enter there whilst people were still inside, as it happened at Roedtan at Sunshine Cafe.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So this is - according to paragraph 28 page 78, the suggestion - it was your suggestion to go to Roedtan, is that correct, with the aim or robbing a cafe, is that correct?

MR MASIL: No, that was not my suggestion, it was the suggestion of Moss Motapo. He informed me as to whether is there a town between Zebediela and Marble Hall which I know, then I explained to him that I know Roedtan.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you - according and I quote the first sentence:

Did you say that or didn't you, in Court, to your counsel and to the police?

MR MASIL: I said so to my legal counsel and in Court and to the police because the police promised me that if I say so, then again if I tell the Magistrate to whom I made my confession to, my sentence would not be the same as my co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. I was under the impression, maybe incorrectly so, that were you not when you attacked the shop at Roedtan, were you not on your way to Alexandra?

MR MASIL: We were on our way to Alexandra, towards Marble Hall.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Alexandra not in Johannesburg?

MR MASIL: It is in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now you said that you went to a shop 15 kilometres from Pietersburg to rob, but that shop was closed and then you went to Roedtan. Now isn't Roedtan, you must help me because I don't know this part of the world too well, but isn't Roedtan far out of the way to Alexandra and you're now running short of petrol? Why take a long detour like that towards Marble Hall?

MR MASIL: The route we used, initially we used N1 because it's the national freeway from Johannesburg to Messina, it passes Pietersburg, but when we returned, Moss told me that we should use another route which I know, then I chose Pietersburg/Marble Hall road, where it - and it goes to Johannesburg from Pietersburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, according to your statement page 77 paragraph 22, Mr Pypers' vehicle was stripped and some of the parts were sold, is that correct? Were taken by Silo's father, is that correct?

MR MASIL: Like the first applicant said, I don't know what happened to that car, but the following morning when we arrived in Johannesburg, I woke up and I went to visit my girlfriend in Soweto overnight, but when we were arrested we said that the car was stripped because we didn't want them to know where we have taken the car to or where we have sold the car to?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So that's also false, that the car was stripped? You don't know it for a fact?

MR MASIL: No, that is not true.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: What happened to the car, was it stripped or not?

MR MASIL: I was the driver and I have a mechanical knowledge, but like I said I went to Soweto to visit my girlfriend. When I came back I was just told that the car has been sold and they said if we are arrested we should say to the police that the car has been stripped, but from my side, I don't have any knowledge about the car.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: You got money for petrol from some of your friends, is that correct?

MR MASIL: I do not understand. When?

CHAIRPERSON: After Roedtan, what happened with your vehicle?

MR MASIL: After we had arrived at Sunshine Cafe and shot people, Zweli and Morapapa went back. I tried to drive the car for half a kilometre, it can be 500 metres or so and the car stopped, we could not proceed, so we left the car there and took everything that was in the car and we went into the bush. We stayed in the bush until the following morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why it stopped?

MR MASIL: Well I don't know, even today I can't explain, but I know the engine of the car fully.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, the young man 14 years of age, it was a child in the cafe, a young boy, is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Why didn't you take any money from the shop at Roedtan?

MR MASIL: Like I have said, my job was to drive the car. The people who entered the shop were Zweli and Morapapa. Those are the people who can explain why they did not take money, because they knew that we did not have money for petrol.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But you had money to buy cigarettes and bread etc., is that correct?

MR MASIL: Yes, the money that we had, it's not the money that could buy two litres of petrol, because I remember I did not buy a full pack of cigarettes, I bought loose cigarettes and this young man we found in the shop, because I did not have money to buy a box of matches, he gave me some few cents to buy a box of matches in the shop and then I left, so the money that I had could not even buy two litres of petrol.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, are you saying to the Honourable Commission that certain parts of your statement, your statement from page 71 to 78 are true and certain parts are false, certain sections of this statement, is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Certain parts, or certain things you've said to your counsel which was placed before the Court during the criminal trial are correct and some are false, is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER; Does the same apply as far as your counsel is concerned? You didn't tell your counsel the whole truth, is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So - and as far as the engagement party is concerned, you say that's false?

MR MASIL: That is not true.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Kruger Rands, looking for Kruger Rands?

MR MASIL: It is also not true.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And you also said that in Court, is that correct?

MR MASIL: Yes, that's what I said.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, this incident took place two months before the 1994 election, is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: There was already an Interim Constitution in place, is that correct?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER; And there was also - the date of the election had already been announced at that time?

MR MASIL: Well I'm not sure whether in February of that year we already knew the date of the elections.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And you said on a question - your counsel put it to the Court on that particular day that you had no political motive because you were promised a more lenient sentence if it wasn't politically motivated, is that correct?

MR MASIL: Yes. The Murder and Robbery Unit in Pietersburg realised that amongst ourselves I was the only person who was not trained, because these other people also confessed that they were trained, so they wanted me to blame my friends so that it could appear in Court that I was actually forced to participate in all these activities.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you given the opportunity to turn State Witness?

MR MASIL: They promised me that I will be removed from the accused box and put into the State Witness box, that's what they said to me.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And that is why you've made a false statement?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Masil?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Masil, when you were in Roedtan, from there how would you proceed to go to Alexandra?

MR MASIL: We were going to use the road from Roedtan to Marble Hall and then through Settlers to Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: With petrol, what were you going to do?

MR MASIL: Because Morapapa said that I should leave everything in his hands concerning the petrol and the transport, so I looked up to him to make arrangements for petrol.

MR SIBANYONI: And at that stage you were just taking them back to Alexandra?

MR MASIL: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: You were no longer busy with PAC activities, or APLA activities?

MR MASIL: We were still in the APLA activities because we were going to Johannesburg and return to Pietersburg from time to time, so we were actually in APLA activities.

MR SIBANYONI: But on that day, were you not on the way to drop them in Alexandra?

MR MASIL: Like the first applicant said, Morapapa was from the Northern Province, but the three of us were from Alexandra, so all of us, including Morapapa, we were going to Alexandra.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard Mr Mhlongo when he testified say that the intention of the unit was to conquer the Northern Province, take it over, did you hear that?

MR MASIL: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that also of you - that was your intention as well, you identified with that aim and objective to take over the Northern Province?

MR MASIL: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo said well it was just the unit that was going to do that and it was going to be a long process, bit by bit, slowly, one step after the other gradually recruiting people, doing operations one after the other, did you hear that?

MR MASIL: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you agree with that?

MR MASIL: Yes, I do agree with that and I would also play a very important part in those activities because I schooled in Northern Province and I understand the language there, so most of the people I know in that Province, so I would be very helpful to them.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said that you knew that the date for the new elections were the 27th of April 1994. Now were the four of you intent on conquering the Northern Province between February and the 27th of April 1994? Did you intend following the objective as laid out by Mr Mhlongo, to carry on after the elections with your endeavour to take over the Northern Province?

MR MASIL: Like the first applicant has said, even Morapapa was not doing things that he himself thought about, he was in contact with the leadership. I did not know some of our leaders, so we would get information from him and instructions from Morapapa.

CHAIRPERSON: He couldn't have been too well in contact because at that stage the struggle had been called off.

MR MASIL: He was able to meet with the leadership because I remember one day I took him to Turfloop because he said to me he was going to phone the leadership. Those are some of the people that I've never met.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever, any questions arising?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: No thank you, Mr Chair, no thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Masil, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson at this stage I'll call Col Poni to the witness stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Col Poni, can you - am I correct to say that at the present moment you are Officer Commanding in the Thohoyandou Military Base?

MR PONI: Positive.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Col Poni, am I correct that you are a former APLA cadre?

MR PONI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Col Poni, do you know the applicants who have just testified before the Committee?

MR PONI; I know Zweli Mhlongo because I was his Political Commissar in Tanzania.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now do you know the person who is known as Moses Motapo or Morapapa?

MR PONI: I know him very well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How do you know him?

MR PONI; He was an instructor in the camps when I was still a Political Commissar and when I became a military attaché in Harare in 1993, he was already inside the country, so he was - time and again he would come to us in Zimbabwe and we'd consult.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Col Poni, you have heard what the applicant, can you tell - you have already indicated, I wanted to ask that question what office were you holding within APLA at the time in 1994.

NR PONI: 1993/94 I was a member of APLA High Command and also a Military Attaché in Harare until October - sorry until July 1994 because I was there, I never came until July.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you tell the Committee about whether you knew what was the mission which - whether Morapapa or Moses Motapo was given any specific instruction inside the country?

MR PONI: In his specific case, mostly he was deployed within the Transvaal machinery, operating in the Johannesburg, Gauteng, Alexandra area. In this area we had a guy who passed away in an operation by the name of Moss, I have just forgotten his surname but he was Moss. He passed away in one of the operations here and then there was a gap here, there was no Commander in the specific area in the Northern Province per se. Then he was identified through also with interaction with the Transkei internal APLA Command that he be removed wherever he was, so that he should come this side in the Northern Province to establish APLA structures in terms of training, resources, that was in 1993.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have heard the applicants, they told the Committee that part of their mission was to rob, if I may use your word - you were not using that word, you were using the word repossession, yes - was to repossess and what you have heard the applicant telling the Committee and what was done by, under the command of Morapapa or Moses Motapo, was it in line with your instructions, or in line with APLA and PAC at the time?

MR PONI: Well we can go into ...(indistinct) in terms of robbing and repossession, what I believed in and I still believe what we have done was correct, was the repossession in terms of the political understanding I have. He was not out of line in terms of what he was doing because his specific instructions were to establish the command, APLA's Command Structure in this part of the world and also it is a fact we believed in terms of being self-sufficient, so where he could also organise resources, which we normally refer to as repossession, so he was not out of line.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now the Committee knows that there was a specialised unit, repossession unit, which was headed by Tabelo Maseko.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Beauty Salon.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Code name Beauty Salon. Now, why was this unit not used in this case? Why was Mr Motapo used to ...(indistinct) both the offensive and in the repossessing side?

MR PONI: In this specific area, particularly in the Northern Province, we honestly speaking, we never had a very strong structure here APLA-wise, that is why he had sort-of a double type of an agenda, not having to be specific, so he had to establish a unit and also to make the machinery to be self-sufficient, hence he was also in a way sort-of autonomous in terms of fund-raising, if I may say so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now let's go now to the specific. At the time these two incidents happened, I understand that there was an announcement on the 16th of January that the arms struggle is suspended and this operation happened in February. Can you explain that, whether that what they did was still in line with APLA and PAC?

MR PONI: There were numerous problems to be very specific here, so in that sense that when, in the January the 16th when the PAC leadership announced the moratorium on arms struggle, that in the honest true sense, it was not done in a manner of consultation with the Commanders also on the ground, so also we had to battle and try to pass the message through so it would have been very difficult within a week of that specific period, it needed time to consult all forces and also to make them to agree, because even the party itself took a very hasty decision in agreeing into participation into negotiation at the time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you be able to just tell the Committee your Command structure, where the members of APLA, that is the Commanders or members on the ground, if there is an announcement, they hear on the radio, or TV or in the paper they read that the arms struggle is suspended, so they have to stop everything?

MR PONI: No, it does not go like that and it never go like that. We were a military - I'm not going to lecture, we all know what the military command structure was. It's a fact yes, the politicians did take a decision, but it needed also us as Commanders at various levels of command also to communicate that and unfortunately at that specific time there was not a single military Commander that talked, other than what was read in the newspapers, because we had to make that into reality.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Would I be correct to say that though you were also members of the High Command, you were also taken by surprise by this, by the decision?

MR PONI: Positively yes, I was in Harare when this thing - I read it on the Zimbabwe Herald, this thing happened, we never set a single day discuss this.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And it was subsequent to that and you have to do the damage control thereafter.

MR PONI: That was it, it was crisis management.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I think that's all I wanted to come with.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van der Heever, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Col Poni?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEEVER: Colonel, a Political Commissioner, is he supposed to be involved in military activities?

MR PONI: Okay, not - Commissar?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Ja.

MR PONI: My role, one ...(intervention)

MR VAN DER HEEVER: No, no, I'm not referring to you as a person, I'm referring to a ...

MR PONI: A Political Commissar?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Yes.

MR PONI: Definitely yes, because he has to see to it that all the operations that are carried out have a political connotation ...(indistinct)

MR VAN DER HEEVER; And applicant number two, do you know whether he was indeed an APLA member?

MR PONI: Initially when I started I said I only know Zweli, but I would accept that in terms of expanding from their structure, then yes, he is an APLA member in that regard.

MR VAN DER HEEVER; And what were the instructions, or what were - what happened if an APLA member for example was arrested and tried? Was he supposed to reveal his membership as an APLA member or was he supposed to refrain from informing his counsel that he was an APLA member?

MR PONI: In the specific case, I would not know the actual ...(indistinct) of it, but what I know is that once you are arrested, it's a fact that there is no way you could hide per se your identity per se. You might withhold certain information yes, which you know will compromise those that were in existence in your specific units, but to say: "I am an APLA member" then, I don't see any problem in it, but the holding of information thereof, yes.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Poni, Colonel, applicant number 1 stated that he did not agree with the cessation of the struggle. Do you have any comment on that? He seemed to have known that the decision was taken.

MR PONI: What I would say, I would maybe consider also his level of academic qualification, but - in terms of understanding certain - but what I can say, it is a fact that when the then leadership of Makwetu took a decision that they are suspending the arms struggle, even my personal self, I was not agreeing at that specific time that the arms struggle should stop but of course, knowing that I'm a political cadres we immediately tried to rally, but not all of us could do that because we still thought that the road to - the arms struggle is still on, but I will also understand that they were not in the picture of what was - I also understand the political pressure. Fortunately I had an opportunity of being an attaché, I knew what was the position of Africa vis a vis the present dispensation, there were numerous meetings forcing us to an extent that even in Harare, I know it for a fact because I was a military attaché, arms were taken away which were under my command in the stores at the time, were taken away, so I would understand the feelings of underground people not wanting to agree with that. I clearly do understand.

ADV BOSMAN: If a person did not agree and there was publication which had come to their notice that the arms struggle had been suspended, then in the absence of any order to the contrary, would that not be stepping out of line?

MR PONI: He, or the units on the ground, they should have waited for a military Commander to tell them that. We were not just a political part of it, we were not just members of the PAC, we belonged to an armed wing of which each had its own rigid structures and at that time when these things happened, we were still also battling amongst ourselves so as to say, we agree, we don't agree, do we continue, we don't continue, those were some of the things, so hence we had to go into a crisis management, trying to battle, force some of these things, so I accept that this type of thing did happen.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson. Colonel, what was the APLA'S policy in terms of, or in so far as the expansion of the cadreship? In other words, what was it expected for Moses to do in establishing structures in the Northern Province?

MR PONI: Okay. He had - there were two programmes. First as I've said that there was someone who was operating here, earmarked to be the Commander here, Moss, but unfortunately he died within the process and in that he did have some units that were not in control of anybody, that was another problem, so his task was also to re-establish the links with the units that were already in existence that were established by Moss and also to establish new units in terms of having more people, in terms of expansion, in that regard.

MR SIBANYONI: Right, was there never any people who were trained internally, in other words if he receives a new recruit? Was he not supposed to train that person internally?

MR PONI: Who?

MR SIBANYONI: Moses.

MR PONI: Was he not supposed to train the person internally?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes.

MR PONI: Okay, fine. What he would do, there were different programmes. There were those he could, let's say train them on a short-term, there were those he could identify and then take them to Transkei where we had established military bases, so it would depend also on his discretion because he was the Commander of the area and he was given quite, if I may say, a bigger mandate to operate on, so he could identify those, either if he had people for short-term or for long-term, then those he identified - I'm not in his shoes now- - or the criteria he has, I will be unable to say, but he could train people here in any part of the Northern Province, or some, he may take them to Transkei for further training and further utilisation in some other part of the country.

MR SIBANYONI: According to the evidence before this Committee, he was using applicant number 2, a person who had never undergone military training, is it not something which was out of line?

MR PONI: Not necessarily. No, not necessarily.

MR SIBANYONI: May you explain why you say so?

MR PONI: As I have seen his role, he was just a driver. As I have listened here, he was just a driver, he never got into any combat type of a situation, so sometimes - which means we had a very vast programme, maybe it might not, at his level Morapapa might have know, because he was more or less a Senior Commander to them, we had the actual combatants themselves, we had the sympathisers and we also had quite a number of people, not necessarily - those who were in the underground structure, but okay, as I hear him now, he was a driver, so he was - if I would utilise him in that manner, then he was one of those sympathisers who could risk their lives for the cause of the party and they were utilised as such and if I've seen, he never participated in the actually shooting of anything, as I hear now here, so he was one of the people, if I may use the correct terms, a sympathiser but under the banner of APLA per se.

MR SIBANYONI: Now coming to repossession. Were they entitled to repossess and consume or were they supposed to repossess and report to some upper structures?

MR PONI: It depends also on the volume of what you had repossessed really because also you have to be able to sustain yourself, you should be able to sustain your structure, so there's no way, if you took let's say R700 then you would phone Letlapa or ...(indistinct), and tell him: "I've got R700", that would have been - I would regard that specific Commander as having no initiative, but I would agree, if it would have been quite a volume of whatever he has repossessed, definitely mechanisms were in place that he should declare. unfortunately I was not in that part of that specialised unit, I don't know what mechanisms they had in place, but I would just out of the general knowledge, I would definitely - they would have declared that if it was quite a big amount of money in a channel that they knew how they would.

MR SIBANYONI: You have listened to the evidence here, it would appear, you may differ with me, it would appear that the focus was on reconnoitring places for possible attack and one will say it would appear Moses was not concentrating on establishing structures and doing other activities of APLA, but he was just focusing on identifying places or possible targets, what is your comment on that?

MR PONI: What I can say, this is a narrow, it might be just a narrow version of whatever, because I don't think in the throughout of Moses' period here he has been with them throughout, but in the narrow perspective and also I don't know in what role Moses utilised them. He might have identified them or earmarked them since he had the other mandate of trying to make the system to work, maybe these were his nucleus in the repossession wing, it might be possible, but I don't know. I'm definitely sure that this is a narrow version of the wider mandate that he had so I cannot really dwell on that specific ...

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Colonel, we've heard evidence from Mr Mhlongo that Motapo, Moses, communicated with the Director of Operations, Mr Mphahlele and one would have expected him, as you say that he was now the Commander of the whole of the Northern Province, that he would be in regular contact with the leadership.

MR PONI: He would have?

CHAIRPERSON: Been in regular contact with his superiors. You said yourself that there wasn't much of a structure here, he was coming in, he was trying to build it up, so one would expect regular communication.

MR PONI: Okay, I would agree with you there.

CHAIRPERSON: So, one would have expected that he would have communicated with leadership people, people his superiors, after January the 16th and before February the 11th. Well that's what Mhlongo said, that he in fact - now if let's say somebody like Mr Mphahlele, I don't know whether he did, but let's communicate with him personally, but let's say somebody like that, he probably would have said to him: "Look, there's been a cessation, a moratorium in the armed conflict." One would expect if he's got discipline, to obey that. Would you agree with that?

MR PONI: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean he's a Commander, he's a senior person. Now, if he didn't obey it, what did he hope to achieve? What could he achieve? You've heard Mr Mhlongo saying that they were out to conquer the Northern Province, four people, seems - I'm not a military man, never have been, but it seems absurd to me, that intention that at that time, in those circumstances.

MR PONI: Sir, I share your sentiment, but if you were in the, particularly in the APLA and in the PAC in general when the announcement, in fact even before the announcement if I may just draw you back because this is quite a political issue, Mr Johnson Mlambo flew from Dar Es Salaam to a Cape Town congress to convince only the membership so as to accept the change that was there. He was nearly beaten in that only the membership, not APLA itself that time, I was in Dar Es Salaam at that time, just to tell the membership internally that no, the situation - Africa thinks we must participate in the negotiations and we must participate in the negotiations in Cape Town, I think it was well read in the newspapers then, those who were in South Africa at the time. He was booed in that meeting, he could not finish what he was saying and at that time he was the most respected person because he was the Chairperson of the PAC and also the Commander in Chief of APLA at the time but his credibility was lost because of the militancy within the PAC at that time and this was a very short space of time for anybody really. I agree with the sentiments of also of the gentleman here when they continued because also ourselves at that time, we could not take a very serious decision. We had senior internal members of the High Command who could not see things, also the other people do see things. We had to iron out those differences and they continued, despite the fact that that was done, but they continued and they are still continuing. When we are meeting we are still labelling each other, sell-outs and the rest, amongst our own selves, so this is the depth of the problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because when was that conference in Cape Town? Was that before the negotiations?

MR PONI: Before, I think a year or so, or two years before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that was before the negotiations yes, but at this stage there had bee negotiations which were concluded. The Interim Constitution was in place, it had been agreed upon. PAC played an active role in the negotiations.

MR PONI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes they did because a friend of mine was there. I know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just may I chip in, just to put some of these things in perspective, the congress. I agree with him there was a year before the negotiations, Johnson Mlambo flew in, there was that problem. Now in December before the suspension, there was a conference, where a decision was taken Chairperson by the PAC that the leadership is given mandate to suspend the arms struggle when it's opportune to do so and Chairperson, I think I've done in many of these hearings, that it was specific that before the announcement is made, the leadership had to consult all the Commanders and come to an agreement.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, but let me just finish putting what I'm putting there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I want to, when you are putting, so that you may cover, just for the sake of time. Chairperson, I want also to put into perspective that definitely as he put it, there were members of the High Command inside and they were outside and they have to do damage control and in terms of their system, they have to contact the inter High Command which was responsible to tell the cadres to stop.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. No but what I was getting at, I was just saying that negotiations had been concluded, Interim Constitution was in place, elections were around the corner, everybody knew that those elections would result in a new dispensation, it was quite obvious to everyone, there was no question about that, so January the 16th, the announcement that APLA was to cease operations really you know, that far advanced in the political developments of the day, didn't I'm sure to most people, come as a surprise because things were in place now waiting for the election. What's the big surprise? Did they expect to carry on war after the elections, or what?

MR PONI: Fortunately in front of me here I have a picture of - he was in the camp on that specific day and that was 1993 and here he said and he told our soldiers specifically here that PAC can only consider abandoning the bullet in overthrowing the regime when the ballot is secured. Those are politics now. When do you consider the ballot is secured or when not do you consider the ballot is secured? So then to - maybe myself I would understand the political terms and all, but a soldier, a foot soldier down there, he took this very literally without the necessary political space to accommodate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Any questions arising Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel, thank you very much. That concludes your testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson that's the evidence of the applicants. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: I do not intend calling any witnesses, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That then brings the evidence in this matter to a conclusion and all that remains now is to receive submissions from the legal representatives. Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson.

Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Before you proceed, sorry. We did, as a Committee, receive a letter from Mr and Mrs Pypers who are the parents of the victim who was shot or captured at Ebenezer and shot near Moria. In this letter they basically express the view that they believe that it was robbery etc, but they do conclude by saying that they will leave the decision as to whether amnesty be granted or not in our hands. Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Chairperson, definitely this time I won't take - I know I usually say I'll be short - at least Col Poni has canvassed most of the points I would have to canvass in my argument.

Chairperson the requirements of the Act, I need not go through them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know the provisions of the Act inside out, I can assure you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, there is no dispute that the applicants were members of the PAC and the first applicant, that he was a member of the Azanian People's Liberation Army, APLA. There is no dispute there, Chairperson. It's common cause.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, can that really be said about applicant number two?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, what I'm saying is that he was a member of PAC and that, Chairperson, because he was a member of PAC, definitely Chairperson he falls under that ...(indistinct) before he can be a member of APLA, he has to be a member of PAC, so definitely he would not have been involved in the activities of APLA without being a member of PAC.

Now, Chairperson, as you have heard from Col Poni, that because he was used as part of APLA operatives of that unit, so definitely in that technically he was a member of APLA though he was not trained because he was used as a driver in that, so he participated in the structures of APLA but he was not a fully trained member of APLA, but of course as a member of PAC, he was involved.

Now, Chairperson, since there's no dispute about that, Chairperson another requirement that - one of the requirements that he belonged to a bona fide..., and there's no doubt about that.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to be a member, you can be a supporter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

The second point, Chairperson, is the full disclosure, whether they have disclosed their involvement. Chairperson, from what I've gathered even under cross-examination, there's no dispute as to how they did what - how they did the act they did, that is how they killed the Bouwer family and the Pypers family. It seems as if there's no dispute about that as to how they did it. It seems as if there's an agreement that the way they put it before the Committee as to how they did it, now it seems to me that, Chairperson, that they have made a full disclosure with regard to their participation with regard to this incident.

Now, the other aspect is whether what they did was politically motivated. Chairperson, it's my submission that there is no dispute that Moses Motapo, Chairperson, Morapapa as he is commonly known, was a member of APLA and he was a Senior Commander of APLA.

Chairperson, I don't want to go much about Moses Motapo Chairperson, I know that this name has come in many of the hearings, the operation in which it was ...(indistinct), where he was given orders. Even Chairperson last week, his name cropped up in the hearing in Johannesburg where he was mentioned as Morapapa, they did not know and I informed the Committee that it is Moses Motapo. Chairperson there is no dispute that he was a Senior Commander of APLA and as Col Poni put it, he was tasked to perform certain duties. Chairperson and those duties he was tasked to perform, he had to perform them in the Northern Province. He is saying that he was given a very much bigger mandate Chairperson, as everybody knows in this Committee and that's the reason ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry to interrupt you Mr Mbandazayo, but about that, just on that point, the first applicant, Mr Mhlongo said that they were told to operate in East Rand. He said they were very upset and they didn't want to do it and they didn't agree and then they basically like took it upon themselves to go to Northern Province to get out of the people in the East Rand, that's what he said.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I think that came out when there was this question that they were not happy, but initially he said that he was at home when Morapapa came. It may well be, Chairperson that he did not want to operate at the East Rand when Morapapa came, because that was his testimony that he was at home when Morapapa, Moses Motapo came, but I think he was trying to, when he was asked by a Member of the Committee, Adv Bosman, that can you tell us about this disgruntlement and then is the time when he said look, they were supposed to operate in the East Rand and there was this problem. So I think when Morapapa came, Chairperson, not all of us, Chairperson will articulate the proceeding in the same way, put it in same way, in a proper perspective, but when Morapapa came he was disgruntled with what was happening in the East Rand and the problem that I was referring to was happening in the East Rand where there was this problem, so definitely he was not doing anything, he was sitting. When the Senior Commander came to him to come to the Northern Transvaal, then he gladly accepted to come in the Northern Transvaal because there was this problem in the East Rand where he could not operate.

ADV BOSMAN: In his statement to the Magistrate, he proceeded to say and he was disillusioned or disgruntled and that is why he turned to robbery.

MR MBANDAZAYO: True Chairperson. Chairperson we know what was happening Chairperson and we have said many a times that, you know most of the time the statements which are made to the police and to the Court are not necessarily correct too because everybody wants to get out from trial, that's what is uppermost when you are arrested, you want anything that will free you. Definitely Chairperson, everybody knows what was happening there.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're not going to get freed really if you say to the Courts: "Well I was frustrated, so I turned to robber", I mean that's digging your hole deeper rather than trying to ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I'm just coming to that point. Chairperson definitely there was no running away that they were members of APLA. They could not run away because the police have all the data about the members of APLA, so that one they could not run away, but they can run away from the fact that what they did, they did it on behalf of APLA or PAC, that they can hide, Chairperson. As Col Poni put it, in order - it depends on the circumstances whether, if you divulge us, you won't sacrifice some of the operatives, so it depends on the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand and we've dealt with many of these matters. During the apartheid regime it was very politic to cover up the fact that you, that the offence that you were charged with was done with a political motive, that you were acting for APLA or for MK because that, at that time, would have been an aggravating factor, it would have made things much worse for the accused person in those Courts, but at the time of this trial, political activity, there was no reason tactical reason in a trial to hide the fact that you were acting politically. In fact at this stage it would probably have been to your benefit to say: "Well look, I did this in the fight for the struggle and on behalf of APLA and it wasn't my own." It would have been changed - because of the change in dispensation from an aggravating factor, to a mitigating factor.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I may not agree with you, Chairperson, it depends on the individuals, even to persons who are presiding, some of them, to others it was a ...(indistinct) factor because there was the political dispensation at that time, so it depends Chairperson on who was presiding, so one may not say if you divulge it then you'll say: "Look, what you have been fighting for, it was just on the door, you were going to have election", so it's an aggravating factor to others, it depends on who is presiding Chairperson. I wouldn't agree with you that it was a mitigating factor, Chairperson, but I want to dwell more, Chairperson that, you know we had - I don't want to, because there are still going to be hearings on other matters, we know what had happened, most of the people have made confessions on something they have never done and it has come up to this TRC where people come up and say: "Look, it was me who did that", they never did it and they were convicted on the confessions. I'm not saying everybody, Chairperson, no I'm not generalising, but that should be taken into account.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson because some - you know those people who were arrested are not sophisticated people, they would buy any story that: "If you say this look you'll be free and you'll not be sentences heavily".

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, I accept that and I know from my experience on the Panel that that indeed happened, but it's just within this particular context that I put the question to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, no, no, I do understand but I wanted to elaborate more that it cannot be put on the applicant to say: "Look if you have said this" because definitely my understanding, even myself Chairperson, if I can put myself in the shoes of the Judge, anybody who's doing anything political at that time when the elections were at the door, it would have been an aggravating factor because the party which he belonged to was participating and they were coming for election, so definitely one would hide that because definitely it would put him into problems.

So it's my submission that, Chairperson, definitely the point that they were hiding definitely may have helped them in getting very harsher sentence then, but it is subject - it's a debatable issue Chairperson, but it's my submission that, Chairperson, definitely one understands why - I do understand why they ran away from that fact that what they did at that time, they were doing it for political purposes.

Now coming to the other aspect, Chairperson, which has been fully canvassed and what I'm trying to say is that the statement which has been made by the applicant to the police, definitely Chairperson, one would ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about both?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Both applicants, Chairperson, I'm talking about both applicants. Definitely Chairperson, when he's arrested, Chairperson, he will say anything which will save his skin, which he thinks and at the end of the day, if one, we are representing these people, you find sometimes that look this was stupid, if he had done this, he would not have been in this mess in which he is, but at the time he did this, he believed that this will help him because he had no other option but to pursue that particular line. So it's my submission that, Chairperson, the statements which were made with the intention of going to Court, definitely I know that though it's taken into regard in some other aspect, but it's not the thing that the Commission will decide on the amnesty because most of the people lie in Court, they lie deliberately in Court because the first thing that comes to mind is the way of getting out of this whole thing. "If I put it this way I may get out with the whole thing." So definitely Chairperson, if one admits that: "What I did, I did this and I did with the purpose of political objective", you are sunk, there's no doubt about that.

Now, therefore Chairperson, it's my submission that the applicants have met all the requirements of the Act and that they belonged to a bona fide political organisation and what they did, they did in pursuance of the struggle of the PAC at the time. Chairperson I want to emphasise that because I know in most of the hearings that some of the applicants, even if you can take that to - it counts in their favour to say because it was - some of the applicants were saying: "Look we never heard about it, we are in the rural areas, it took some time before it came in", but they were honest to the Committee and said: "Look we never - we heard about that", but definitely there was a disagreement which Col Poni has indicated and of course he put it bluntly, the first applicant, that: "I did not accept, me personally" but it was not depending on him, it was depending on the Commander as correctly put by Col Poni, they have to wait until they are told that: "Look, you suspend now, we have decided to suspend the arms struggle", from their Commanders and if they have done that after that Chairperson, definitely I would agree, I wouldn't be arguing now to you. I would say: "Look, they did that in defiance, so what they did, they did for their own benefit, it had nothing to do with the struggle at the time", but as Col Poni correctly put it and of course he put it in a very diplomatic manner, but I must say that Letlapa Mphahlele was a Director of Operations and everybody was looking at him and as he said that they have to do damage control, the first thing they have to get hold of the Director of Operations who was in the Transkei in the rural areas. I must say ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to tell me about the telephone system in Transkei, Mr Mbandazayo, I come from there. You know it. Also myself Chairperson, I'm from that area so Chairperson you know it and everybody, as he indicated that not everybody was happy and it's clear that he would run away also himself and Chairperson, if I may put you into perspective, you know Chairperson that the Commander of APLA, Sabelo Pama was here on the New Year's Eve of January 1984, 1994 and what was his message? The struggle continues. That was his message and that the forces should hit hard and it was broadcast on television and he left the country and everybody - definitely, it's clear that by the time he left the country he knew that the arms struggle is going to be suspended but he could not face these forces because he knew what is going to happen.

It was on 1st January, this New Year's message of January 1994. He broadcast it, he was in Transkei at that time, but it was broadcast after he had left the country and it was clear he could not force, it was clear when he left that message, he had already made up the decision with the leadership but without his forces, because he knew what was going to happen, he had to go outside before and as Col Poni put it, by the time it was announced he was in Namibia and they were in Harare, they did not know what would happen, what he's going to do, they have to do damage control. He was nowhere to be found himself. So Chairperson now they have to contact Letlapa Mphahlele in Transkei. They couldn't find him and it took some time before they got hold of him and by the ...

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't Mr Mhlongo say that Moses communicated with Mphahlele?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes of course Moses was communicating with him because they were in agreement that the struggle must continue. Now the High Command outside has to contact him to say: "Look, a decision has been taken, the arms struggle has to be suspended, he has to stop everything now" but they could - of course Moses has to contact him but at that time Letlapa had not been ordered by Sabelo Pama to stop everything and by the time everything was ordered, where was Letlapa? He was in Lesotho. He has run away because everybody was after him. He was hiding in Lesotho because also himself, he could not face the forces because everybody did not understand. Chairperson I know that's not the platform for that because it has a lot to involve in it and of course at the end of the day who is suffering? The ordinary foot soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: And the victims.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson and the victims. The victims and the ordinary foot soldiers because of the politicians and the politicians now are nowhere to be - they are alone in jail and the victims are here, they are nowhere who are responsible for the whole thing. Must they, Chairperson, be punished because of the decisions of the politicians? Must they suffer because of the decision of the politicians because they take hasty decisions, they could not face them to tell them and explain to them that look, this is the decision and they decided that they'll hear it over the radio or on the papers and they knew that APLA has to follow certain procedures before it has come to ... Chairperson I know that I've been involved in many hearings with the Chairperson and one of the incidents happened in March, if Chairperson would remember, it was a repossession here, it was an APLA - and they came from Lesotho. At that time the arms struggle was suspended and Letlapa was there and it was under his command and Tabelo Maseko was there, who's the head of repossession and he testified in that hearing that: "I ordered them because at that time there was nothing as APLA - we have not taken that decision to suspend the arms struggle and those people were granted amnesty, if I still remember ...(indistinct) the other applicant they could not get him because he was at Lesotho, he did not receive the notice so it's still going to be heard.

So Chairperson it's my submission that the applicants should not - the responsibility of the politicians should not be put on their shoulders and therefore Chairperson they should be granted amnesty as they applied for as they have met all the requirements of the Act.

Chairperson, unless there is any aspect you want me to address you on.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chair I know the rules differ before the Commission, but with the greatest respect, I have a problem with the credibility of the two applicants. Applicant number one conceded under cross-examination that it was their intention to rob the bank at Mankweng, Standard Bank, it was their intention to rob the bank at Lebowakgomo, it also was their intention to go back to two shops to rob those shops. Applicant number two under cross-examination and despite his statement said no, it was never their intention to rob the two Standard Banks and the two respective shops. That's number one. Number two, as far as applicant number two is concerned Mr Chair, he now avers that his statement to the police, which was never used in Court, is false. His evidence before the Court was false and even his instructions to his counsel were false. So Mr Chair, firstly and I know the rules therefore I have a problem with the credibility of the two applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the credibility goes to disclosure.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: That's correct, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean we've got to be satisfied that there's been a full disclosure and we can only be satisfied that that disclosure not only has been full but has been truthful.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Chair, I will be very brief. The second problem, or my second submission I would like to make Mr Chair, it was asked to the applicant:

and the answer was:

not to achieve a political gain. To get petrol money. Why did they want petrol money? To go back to Alexandra, not to go and attend the political meeting or anything like that. They conceded under cross examination that the reason why they've robbed the Bouwer family or the restaurant and killed the two Bouwer husband and wife and wounded the young Mr Bouwer was to get petrol money, it wasn't for any political gain. It was solely and they conceded that under cross-examination, to get petrol money. Why did they want petrol money? To go back to Alexandra. Therefore Mr Chair it is my submission that from the statement and from the cross-examination, it's my submission that the applicants were busy with criminal activity and not with, as far as the Bouwer family are concerned, I'm not appearing on behalf of the Pyper family Mr Chair, was there was no political aim or political gain to be obtained by killing the Bouwer family. The reason was to get petrol money to go back to Alexandra. Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever. Ms Mtanga, do you wish to make any submissions?

MS MTANGA: I have no submissions to make Chairperson. I leave this matter in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any reply?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just briefly, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN REPLY: Chairperson firstly on the question that the applicants, the other applicant indicated that the intention was to rob and the other one said it was not the intention to rob this place, Chairperson it's my submission that both applicants agree that they went to this with the purpose of

reconnoitring the place for purposes of attack, so they are not denying that. It was reconnoitred for purposes of that, so it's not in dispute that the purpose was, at the end of the day, for going there to rob, though they did not do it that time because the others were saying it was for reconnaissance first, which is understandable Chairperson.

Now coming to this point, the other point is that, Chairperson, it must be borne in mind by the Committee that there was a Commander. They were always acting on the instruction of the Commander, Morapapa, who they were depending on. They did not take the decision on their own and coming to this point, the decision was that they need petrol and it's agreeable, the petrol for what? They were busy reconnoitring the places and for whose benefit were they reconnoitring these places when they ran out of petrol? Was the purpose of pursuing the struggle. And then they ran out of petrol and the petrol, they were going to use it, was in furtherance of that and according to them, but at the end of the day, who was commanding? The Commander decided at that time, as the first applicant indicated, he never said anything and he attacked.

Now Chairperson, should they be now at the end of the day - unfortunately he cannot come and answer for what as to when did he decide to change his mind. We don't know whether, Chairperson, at the end of the day he was going to take the money and also kill the people, but what they were told was that they wanted - they have to have the money for petrol because they cannot continue with their activities without the money for petrol. So definitely Chairperson, if one reads that in all in perspective as to what the activity was, but if you take incident by incident as to what was happening, definitely Chairperson we will punch all the holes, definitely, you won't get the gist of the whole thing as to what was the purpose and we'll remain with many questions, but unfortunately the person who's supposed to answer the question, is the person who was tasked with the duties to establish APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he didn't seem to have been very efficient. I mean they get a vehicle, they rob it, they sell it for R7 000, they run out of petrol money five days later. That doesn't sound like good planning, it doesn't sound like a thing a reasonable person would do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I agree with you Chairperson. Who knows that when they were going to Alexandra he wanted to go and collect the money for which they sold the vehicle. Nobody knows about that because he cannot answer, he's the person, but Chairperson if one, in all the operations he has been involved in, unfortunately the one which he did not look like he did not plan properly is the one at the end of the day he died in because in all the operations he was involved in, he was regarded as an efficient person ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because normally with these sort of operations you'd have reconnaissance work done, check it out. I mean what happened in Roedtan, they send in the second applicant, a chap who's had no training at all. It just seemed sloppy and unprofessional.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, I agree with you Chairperson, 100% on that aspect and that's why he met his fate exactly in the operation in which he has been doing, in all the operations in which he was involved in, all the others where he has been mentioned, he was involved in, was everybody - they were done efficiently and everything. He was doing reconnaissance and everything, but on this one where he met his fate and it's where he was ...(indistinct) in all his preparations for this, he died.

So Chairperson it's my submission that at the end of the day, the applicants themselves they bona fide believed that what they were doing was in pursuance of the struggle. It may well be that the Commander has his own ideas but they won't know that, but themselves, they bona fide believed this is a Senior Commander of APLA and what we are doing, we are doing in pursuance of the struggle and I think that's the test, Chairperson, what they believed in when they did that.

Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. That then brings us to the conclusion of this hearing. We'll reserve our judgment. We are obliged to hand down written judgments and in any event we would require to deliberate with each other on the submissions made and on the evidence presented and we'll endeavour to hand down the decision as soon as possible. I would like to thank the legal representatives, Mr Mbandazayo and Mr van der Heever and Ms Mtanga for their assistance in this matter. And this, Ms Mtanga, brings us to the end of our roll.

MS MTANGA: Yes, that is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I would, before we adjourn then, just like to thank all the people concerned who made our hearings here in Messina possible. I'd also like to say that for some of us it was the first time in Messina and we found it to be a very pleasant place. I'd like to thank the owners of this magnificent hall for allowing us to use it as a venue. It's a very nice venue. I'd like to thank the interpreters for their long and hard task of keeping up with everything that is said. Thank you very much. With the media people, with the caterers who have spoiled us and with the witness protection people and the security people and the Correctional Services people who had to travel a long way to get here, although there was some mix up about that, but thank you everybody for making our hearings possible. If I've omitted a name, it's without intention, but I won't intentionally omit to mention the names of Mr Japhta our Logistics Officer and Mrs Pollock our Secretary, for assisting us as well. Thank you and also Mr Bouwer, we appreciate the fact that you have come here today and you obviously have our deepest sympathies about this tragic incident, the loss of your parents and also your own personal loss and I'm sure it must have taken a lot of courage to come here and that is appreciated. Thank you.

Thank you very much. We will then adjourn now.

----------------