CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Moodley.

MS MOODLEY: We're ready this morning to resume on behalf of victims who want to have an opportunity to give their versions of what happened on that fateful evening. I call the first person, Anna Khumalo, who is the complainant referred to on page 21 of the bundle of documents in Count 15 and the mother of the child in Count 16, the child Anna Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Which bundle would that be? And you say on page 20?

MS MOODLEY: If could be given a minute, I think my bundle has now been unbundled, so I just want to get the correct number before I give it to you. It is the first bundle and it's page 21 and the attempted murder counts 15 and 16.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moodley is she just going to make a statement, or does she want to testify under oath, or what is the position?

MS MOODLEY: I think for purposes of ...(indistinct), I don't think we intend to lead evidence. Mrs Khumalo wants to be afforded an opportunity to share with the Commission events of that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Then she would make a statement?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to point out that to the extent that she wishes to persuade us one way or the other, what she says as a statement would not be ...

MS MOODLEY: For purposes of notice?

CHAIRPERSON: No, it would not bear on us in consideration of our decision, as heavy as it would have had it been under oath.

MS MOODLEY: I'm guided by your assistance in this matter and I think it might be expedient to actually then consider swearing in Mrs Khumalo and leading evidence.

ANNA KHUMALO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOODLEY: Mrs Khumalo, you are the Mrs Khumalo mentioned in Count 15 and 16 on the counts of attempted murder in the matter of the shooting at kwaMakutha on the 21st of January 1987?

MS KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS MOODLEY: Would you now shere with us the events of that fateful evening?

MRS KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: She's the person referred to in count 15 and her daughter I think is the one that's referred to count 16.

MS KHUMALO: It was late at night. My child tried to wake me up. As I was breast feeding the child. When I woke up I saw smoke and I alerted the people because I thought there was a bomb or fire. There was a sound like a thunderstorm. When I went down to the corridor, I saw this other man with his wife. We went back to the other bedroom. As we were trying to get out through the window, Mr Moshu was shot at and then he fell and I also fell on top of a box. I couldn't even scream there and I was carrying the child on my back and I heard gun shots. It was between 2 and 3 a.m. I couldn't move after the shooting and then I heard the people talking. I could hear them but I couldn't do a thing. I kept quiet until 5 a.m. I heard the neighbour's car and then I went out of the door. The door was already open. I met with Mr Thusini and who said to me: "I managed to escape the shooting." I went to the other lady to tell her that people died there and I didn't know what happened, but at least one bullet hit me on my thigh and then people came to my house. I didn't see the people who were shooting but I heard their car idling. I didn't see anyone. I just heard their voices.

Even now I'm still surprised because my child is very ill. He's about to undergo an operation. There is something like a lump on her head and I don't know whether she's going to die or survive.

MS MOODLEY: Mrs Khumalo, is there anything that you would like further to tell this Commission about how that incident impacted on your life and the lives of your children?

MRS KHUMALO: Even today I'm still disturbed. I cannot relax because I'm even scared of people because even these killers are out of jail.

MS MOODLEY: I think we've come to the end of what Mrs Khumalo would like to share with the Committee. We ask for her to be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll have to give Mr Nel an opportunity to ask question. Mr Nel.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Mrs Khumalo, were you notified of the amnesty application brought by one of the attackers of your house that night, a certain Bheki Khumalo? Was that application brought to your notice?

MS MOODLEY: No, I know nothing about that application, I'm hearing about it for the first time today.

MR NEL: I see from the record of that application, that 199 victims were notified. So you were not one of them?

MS MOODLEY: No.

MR NEL: There was a Mr Ngubane and a lawyer from Durban acting for the victims. Do you know Mr Ngubane?

MS MOODLEY: No, I do not know him.

MR NEL: You were present in the hall yesterday and listened to the evidence given by Mr Cloete, is that correct?

MS MOODLEY: That is correct.

MR NEL: Did you hear that he apologised to the victims?

MS MOODLEY: Yes, I heard his apology, but what is most painful is the fact that he was actually cleaning the house. Even today he is still cleaning up within me, as my child is very ill at the moment.

MR NEL: Mr Chair, I have no further questions. I don't know if my client has anything to say, if he would be allowed.

CHAIRPERSON: You can find out from him if he wants you to ask any questions.

MR NEL: Mrs Khumalo, my client has requested me to repeat his apology to you personally. Mrs Khumalo, I know I can't rectify anything that happened in the past, but I give you my sincere apologies for what happened on that fateful night. I hope you will forgive me. Thank you. That's all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything more, Ms Moodley?

JUDGE POTGIETER: Mrs Khumalo, just one thing, if you can. You say that you heard, those attackers, you heard them speaking, talking. Could you hear what they were saying?

MS KHUMALO: I heard them saying ...(ethnic). I think that means their leader was telling them to stop.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Was that the only thing that you heard?

MS KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Thank you for your assistance Mrs Khumalo.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair, just one question. Mrs Khumalo, did you personally or any one of the people who were killed and injured, belong to any political organisation?

MS KHUMALO: Are you talking about the people who were in the house? There was no one who was in any political organisation. Those who were the only people who were in my congregation. The other one was a priest and the others church members and one lady had asked for a refuge in the place who went there because she had a fight with her partner, therefore she had asked to spend a night there and she died there.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mrs Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Khumalo, can you tell us, did you stay at that house which was attacked that night?

MS KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I notice from the charge sheet that the people who died and were injured, held various surnames. One gets the feeling that there was some type of gathering at that house earlier that night, or some time in that time area. Was there a gathering of people there? You referred to congregation in your evidence. Was there a church meeting or vigil at that house during that period?

MS KHUMALO: Yes, we used to meet there. Sometimes they would go there for rehearsals, but the other gentlemen where there to submit their reports.

CHAIRPERSON: I see one of the deceased was also a priest.

MS KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand correctly that the people there in that house that night, were there essentially for religious reasons, for no other reasons.

MS KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to tell us why you think this event took place? Never mind what they say, the perpetrators, do you know of any reason why this would have occurred?

MS KHUMALO: I got a shock and I didn't even have a clue of what led to this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time in Natal, we've heard many hearings related to Natal and what happened there during that period. Was this possibly one of those third force attacks, just to create confusion amongst our people?

MS KHUMALO: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I see, or I understand that a person who applied for amnesty in relation to this event was a person named Mr Khumalo, is that correct Mr Nel? I don't know what his first name is. It was mentioned when you said it's the first time you heard of that application. What was that name? Bheki Khumalo. Is he perhaps related to you?

MS KHUMALO: No, not at all. I first heard about him during the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you seen this person already? Did you see him at the trial?

MS KHUMALO: Yes, he was pointed out to me.

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know him?

MS KHUMALO: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: There were a number of children that were killed and injured that day, I'm talking the oldest of the children being about 10 years old. Do you recall that?

MS KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your daughter the only one that survived of the children, that attack?

MS KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I see there are five Thusini children that were killed that day. Whose children were they?

MS KHUMALO: Those were Mr Thusini's children.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thusini wasn't there that night?

MS KHUMALO: He was in the other house, the one that was outside.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. Him and his wife? What was Mr Thusini's name? Ernest?

MS MOODLEY: May I assist in this regard? Ernest Thusini is the next witness, the next victim and witness, that's going to appear before the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to correlate the family here first. Ernest Vususi Thusini as he is a person who is referred to in Count 17. Then in Count 18 it is Faith Norman Thusini. Is that ...(indistinct)

MS MOODLEY: It's incorrect. It should read Faith Nema Thusini, not Norman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I understand now. It makes sense to me. Yes, thank you Mrs Khumalo, for your assistance. I hope ...(indistinct) with your daughter's operation. Thank you.

MS MOODLEY: I call Mr Ernest Thusini and ask that you swear him in.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thusini, what language would you prefer to use?

MR THUSINI: Can you repeat the question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to use?

MR THUSINI: I'll use English.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you comfortable with English?

MR THUSINI: I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: If you prefer to use another language, then I think you should use it.

MR THUSINI: No, I'll stay with English.

CHAIRPERSON: Fine.

ERNEST VUSUSI THUSINI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOODLEY: Mr Thusini, you are the complainant mentioned in Count 17 and your wife is the complainant mentioned in Count 18 of this matter which appears on page 21 of the first bundle, as well as a number of your children that are now late, that appear in the various counts and I will list them. Count number 9, count 10 and let's give then the names. Nomofundu ...(indistinct) Thusini, Count 10 Punzile Thusini, 8 years old. Count 11, Bikile Thusini, 7 years old. Count 12, ...(indistinct) Sithembile - no not that one, sorry. Count 13 Mbusi Thusini, 6 years old and count 14, Senele Thusini, 4 years old. I know what I'm going to be asking you to do is traumatic, but it is important that the Commission has the benefit of the information that you can share with us this morning.

I want to take you back to that fateful evening again, on the 21st of January 1987. Can you related the events that took place there?

MR THUSINI: Thank you. I'll try.

CHAIRPERSON: That phenomena that the house was the residence of the church leaders and that ever so frequently there would out of necessity have to be a gathering at that house, was that common knowledge in the area?

MR THUSINI: I would say yes, it was common knowledge because it wasn't something that was happening in secret but it was happening openly.

CHAIRPERSON: And did it happen very often, so that people it almost as a matter of rule, that would be the case?

MR THUSINI: Ja, people knew us very well and what happened then and of course Mr Ntuli had children and he had Victor and other children as well. I would say really, I wouldn't be naive myself because at the time the situation in the country clearly everyone knew what was happening, so even though I was a church person, but I wasn't naive in terms of what was happening around me, even though I wasn't involved, but the youth at the time, we knew that there was something that was happening, especially Victor, but the extend of the involvement, that we were not aware because he wouldn't do things like that at home because his father would kill him, because this is how Mr Ntuli was, he wouldn't allow anything like that because we knew at the time the volatile situation and the effect that will create in terms of us carrying on with the normal business of church in the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it seems, as I understand the evidence of Mr Cloete, that the reason why Mr Ntuli was targeted was that he had something to do with the Treasury of the ANC or UDF at the time. Now, and that's why he was targeted. That's another consideration and debate that this Panel will have to enter into, but to answer or to clarify the situation with you, so that was what his evidence was. Carry on.

MR THUSINI: Thank you. Then it came, the fateful night, when all of a sudden, we were sleeping and then we just heard gun shots and we didn't know where they were coming from and I mean then fate prevailed on that day because, on my side, because what happened to me is something that when I relate it to somebody, they sometimes get stunned because they are not able to believe it, because during the shooting, because there was just noise everywhere, you didn't know what was happening and of course people were asleep. I was asleep and all of a sudden it felt to me like somebody picked me up and threw me right off to the side of the bed, that's how fast that happened and I just lay there, I didn't move, I didn't do anything, I just lay there and my wife rolled over and then she fell down and then she was screaming and then I told her to keep quiet. Until the shooting stopped, we just lay there. When the shooting stopped you could hear people talking and moving out and then I could hear what seemed like a kombi door, sliding door, you could hear the slide door and everything was just quiet at the time and we couldn't do anything and I tried to listen if there is any movement on the other side because the outside building was separated in two, so I was trying to listen if there was any movement on the other side where my kids were and then I realised that no, it's so quiet, but even then I couldn't do anything because at the time there were people who were outside on the neighbours, sitting and talking so I didn't trust anything, so I just lay there because I didn't know whether there was somebody who was maybe standing outside listening, if there is anybody who is still maybe living, so I just lay there, I just didn't do anything.

Immediately after that, one of my daughters, a twin daughter, I heard her screaming and running out and then I said to myself: "God, maybe they're going to get her".

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thusini, you can skip that part.

MR THUSINI: And then, I then asked my wife to just go and check how are the kids and I said to her, you mustn't go outside, just peep there and see what's happening and then come back, which she did and we laid there until 5 o'clock, I think. I then stood up. I then, because the other neighbour at the back, normally at that time he will be washing the car, preparing to go to work, because I heard the tap running into - water running into the bucket and then I said to myself, maybe I should run up quickly and ask that guy to please take me away from there so that I can go and phone somebody for help. When I was running out, that's the time I realised that also Anna Khumalo was still alive, because she was coming out of the main house door, kitchen, then I asked her, I said: "You didn't die?" and then she said: "No" and then quickly I ran over to the wall because there was a concrete wall. I ran over. I went and asked the guy if he could give me some help. He said: "No" because the people were watching, so he can't help me. So I ran out, I ran down the street, I went to the other house, the other family which they called Cele. I then phoned. They gave me the phone. I phoned the Amanzimtoti police and then I went straight to the other member of the house and I stayed there and there they also helped me. I phoned my work place to come and pick me up. I told them the situation, what happened, and they came and picked me up. So I stayed there at work, I related the story, what happened and of course the story was already on the news and everything and I went back there. They took me back with their car, my workplace car, the company car. They took me back to kwaMakutha now, and when I reached there, there was a whole lot of people there, everybody was there, so that's as far as I can related to that story. They also took me to the police station, they did all the questioning and trying to find out if I was political and what have you, but ... ja.

MS MOODLEY: Mr Thusini, I want to take you back and ask you a couple of questions. I hope that it won't be too difficult. You made a comment about Victor Ntuli and the fact that his father wouldn't countenance any political activity at his home, but I think to be honest and make full disclosure ...(indistinct) as we all are about that before the Commission, would you like to contextualise for us a little bit more about Victor Ntuli for the benefit of the Panel? Because it has been alleged that he was a UDF person and that he occupied a particular position of paymaster.

MR THUSINI: I will try to answer that but I think the mother will be fitting well in order to maybe go into further details in terms of that, but in terms of my knowledge, as I have said, that the youth of the time, there were so many things that were happening, but nothing that could happen in terms of politics in that house because it's something that was a no go, because we wouldn't accept that situation understanding the political situation in the country at the time, so what we were interested in is to do the Church business and that was what we were concerned about.

MS MOODLEY: But the incident of this massacre had a profound impact on you. Did you think that was your baptism into politics so to speak?

MR THUSINI: Ja, as a result, to me it was sort of a fighting back situation because I didn't know what was happening and I said to myself then maybe one needs to get into politics and be active in politics because therefor it would somehow justify to me that my kids did not die in vain, so therefore I got into politics.

MS MOODLEY: Can you tell us again, or have you already told us, the denomination of the church that Mr Ntuli and yourself belonged to?

MR THUSINI: The Church is Twelve Apostle Church for Christ and we were both priests in terms of the position in the Church.

MS MOODLEY: The people that were at home that evening, they were all members of the congregation, were they?

MR THUSINI: Yes, because like the male that he referred to, he was a under deacon, a position below our position as priests.

MS MOODLEY: So by any stretch of any imagination, one could not term the people that had gathered there, any other gathering but a Church gathering or people who had remained over after events at the Church?

MR THUSINI: Ja that was basically what it will be because people used to come in and out at that place because we were leaders in the church. Of course there were other people who were leaders above us, but because we were there where the people are, you know, and then the people will come to us and then we will be counselling them and we will maybe try and advance the teachings of the church in terms of strengthening them and things like that, just general counselling.

MS MOODLEY: Mr Thusini, briefly about your personal circumstances now. You have had a fractured family, you've lost a lot of children, you've told us as much as what happened that evening, but there has been an everlasting impact on your life after this event, obviously. Would you like to say anything more?

MR THUSINI: Really the problem - well, my daughter, the twin daughter that survived, had a bullet at the back. She had to later on at a stage I took her to the doctors for operation which they removed the bullet and she's been in that situation. Right now she's 21 but she's still doing standard 8. It shows you clearly the impact of that situation, but what we also do at home, she would take photographs of sisters and brothers and try to you know find herself in that situation, but I would try and sit with her and talk to her, you know try - I've taken her to psychologists as well, to try and you know open up her mind in terms of making sure that she makes progress, but unfortunately I haven't seen any improvement. But personally, really, my family is, myself, that I'm talking today, that I'm the person that I am, I thank God for the strength that I am the person who I am today, maybe I should be crazy because I mean you cannot lose 5 children and be, you know ...

MS MOODLEY: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Thusini, I know it's very hard to sit here for you. There are just a few matters I would like to clarify, if you could assist the Committee. Did Victor Ntuli in fact stay in that house?

MR THUSINI: Ja he stayed in the house.

MR NEL: Now Bheki Khumalo, have you ever met him prior to this incident?

MR THUSINI: I don't even know who you're talking about.

MR NEL: This Bheki Khumalo who applied for amnesty in respect of this attack.

MR THUSINI: I don't even know the person.

MR NEL: Did you attend the criminal trial in Durban?

MR THUSINI: Well that's another sore point for me because I didn't attend the trial for the simple reason that in terms of what was going on, to me it was shambles, that's why I made the comment that it is a public relations exercise that failed dismally because as far as I'm concerned, there was no justice that was done, because as victims, we were never called in to testify, to put our version of what happened on that night. Nothing was said, we were not called in. I took my lawyer, we went to Tim McNally in Durban to say to McNally: "We are available if you must call us we are here" and he didn't. So the case itself to mean it doesn't serve me any purpose, so I didn't even attend it, so the person that you're asking me about, I don't know and I've never seen that person.

MR NEL: You also never heard about his amnesty application?

MR THUSINI: Well, I just heard about amnesty applications yesterday.

MR NEL: If Victor Ntuli was in fact involved in political activities and an outsider was doing a reconnaissance of this house, seeing people coming and going, would you agree with me that even a wrong assumption might have been made to the effect that this was a gathering place of political orientation?

MR THUSINI: I didn't hear that properly, because my sound does not seem to be - I didn't hear you properly what you said.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me paraphrase that for you. Because it was a house which very frequently entertained members of the Twelve Apostles Church of Christ congregation, do you think that it was a fair assumption on the part of a political reconnaissance person to think that those people at these gatherings, were not church gatherings or religious gatherings, but political gatherings? The question is, will it be a fair assumption on the part of the person who did the reconnaissance of that house?

MR THUSINI: I wouldn't comment about the fair assumption. I would say, as far as I'm concerned, it's out of thinking because I mean, how possibly would you just make an assumption that this will be the gathering which involved politics whereas you didn't do your homework properly because if those people did the homework properly they would have known, but they didn't do that, so therefore I cannot even assume, because I cannot understand their thinking.

MR NEL: Mr Thusini, I have noticed very clearly that this incident has in fact strengthened your faith, is that correct?

MR THUSINI: The incident strengthened my faith. I had faith. I survived because I had faith. I've still got faith. It's not because of the incident that gave me strength.

MR NEL: As a Christian are you prepared to accept my client's apology insofar as he has attempted to confess his role in this incident?

MR THUSINI: I don't know if I should call this a confession. As far as I'm concerned there's no confession. As far as I'm concerned I've lost time I should have been at the Tech, I'm studying, I've lost all that and I need to go back home now and try and make up because what I'm sitting here, I don't understand because clearly there is nothing that the man is saying. If he apologises, on what basis is he apologising, so I don't understand that. So even if I need to consider him apologising to me, for what? And then what?

MR NEL: I'm referring to the role that he has sketched, the role that he has played.

MR THUSINI: There are so many question that were asked yesterday. I sat here, I said to myself: "This is mad" because I couldn't get anything, so therefor I don't know how to answer that question because as far as I'm concerned, it's irrelevant.

MR NEL: Just to repeat, my client has asked me to convey his apologies to you once again for the role that he has played. That's all. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any further questions?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thusini, from what you have described to us, that attack was typical. I'm not saying it is or it was, but it has all the ingredients of a third force attack. Am I correct in that?

MR THUSINI: I wouldn't assume anything because even at the time I couldn't assume anything. You know even now I live in fear. I don't know what were the reasons that my kids were slaughtered. I don't know. I cannot tell even now. Really, I cannot, for the life of me, make an assumption.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.

MS MOODLEY: I'd like to call Mrs Ntuli to take the stand.

MRS NTULI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOODLEY: Mrs Ntuli, you were the mother of that home that was attacked in kwaMakutha on 21st of January 1987.

MS NTULI: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOODLEY: Fortunately you were not at home that evening.

MS NTULI: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOODLEY: But for the benefit of the Panel and all of us, we'd like you to tell us, and contextualise for us, a little bit about the family that lived there and about the incidents that followed this massacre at your home.

MS NTULI: I was not at home. I left on a Monday. The reason for me to leave, it was solely because weeks following that, we were going to have a very big gathering at eZimboweni. I told my husband that I was going there to make arrangements, but I was going to look for a school because it had become apparent that it was not going to be possible later for the children to go to school there in the area. I took my last born who was three years old at the time. I spent a night there on a Monday and then Tuesday I went to look for a school. I was to go back to that particular house after that, to go back to that house, the house that was occupied by the other people who were also in our congregation. On our way back, I told the lady who was with me that I'm scared of these people who were standing at the door. I felt like running away. I had this feeling that they were going to say something to me, but she assured me that nothing was going to happen, they were just standing at the door. I went past them. I went straight to the house and then this other lady was a resident in this house. Within a few minutes these people came to me and asked me about Mr Ntuli's name and I told them and then they all cried. They didn't tell me what happened. At the time they didn't know me in that area, but they always knew me as a person who would go there for church purposes. I told them to stop making noise and to tell me what was happening. I could feel that I was going crazy and then I grabbed my child, I took a towel and then I wiped here. I boarded a taxi to Durban. They followed me and they wanted to accompany me, but they didn't have enough money. I told them that I had some money because I went there to make arrangements for the gathering and I was also looking for a school for my children. I took them with. We went back to my home. When we got there, we saw the other members of the congregation trying to clean up the house, but there was blood all over the place. I realised that the father was not there. He was shot at. My daughter, Pomelele was not there. Pomelele's child, who was nine months old, she was found underneath Pomelele and my daughter, but the child was still alive but the other shoulder was injured, the right shoulder. I realised that Nunu and Sithembile were not there. Nunu was seven years and I heard that Nunu died. I heard that Mr Ngubane had died and a girl from the Ntuli family, the one that I left in my house when I was leaving, who was in my house because she had a quarrel with her partner, so she took refuge in my house and the same lady, I told her to wait there because my husband and Ngubane were on their way back and then he was going to solve their problem. When her husband came, their problem was solved, but they decided that this lady cannot go back to her house and then she had to stay there with the child, but this lady passed away and then the child was only injured in the one arm.

I never got the opportunity to grieve like a person who had lost her husband. I had to go and sleep at other peoples places because of the confusion that was taking place in the township about Victor. Victor was not a talkative person. The way my husband was so strict with his children, there was no way for Victor to do anything that would be visible to us as parents, but something that I noticed during December before this incident that took place in January, a child from Mkhize family in our area passed away. He was shot at. I think the child was twelve years old. A neighbour came to me, Mr Mkhize, he is my next door neighbour from 1867. He told us that if he dies we must know that he was killed by Victor because when they went to identify the body at the morgue, Victor looked at him as if everyone was saying something about him and then he told us that he was coming from Mr Buthelezi to tell him about this and I asked him why he didn't go to the police to report the matter. He said he did not want to do that, but I said to him: "You grew up here in front of us. If there is a problem that you do not understand, why won't you come to us and explain and let us solve the problem?" he decided to leave. My husband was working night shift and apart of what was going to happen, I decided to go to Amanzimtoti police station and I told them what had happened. That was a sign that actually puzzled me. That was the very first sign. I related that to politics, because Mkhize came and did this strange thing and it was in December.

After the funeral I decided that I cannot stay there, I had to look for a place to stay. The Inkatha members came and occupied my house. Even when I wanted to come back, I couldn't, because the Inkatha members refused to leave my house. Even when I wanted to sell my house, people were threatened. Even today I'm still staying in the mountains. I do not have a place to stay. That is what is making matters difficult for me. What we are here for today, I do not believe that the gentleman who is asking for amnesty has forgiven me because of what I did to him. I am not sure whether he has forgiven me. I just want him to tell me if he has forgiven me because when he decided to take firearms and send people to go and kill the people in my house, I did not know what is it that I had done. He didn't know the damage that was caused by these firearms because I heard that he was not even there. I don't know whether that firearm has stopped releasing bullets if he has forgiven me.

It is very difficult for me because I do not believe that if you are being attacked you can just run away and leave your house and then you would turn your back again and go back to the attacker and tell the attacker that: "I am forgiving you" because you are running away. I do not understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mrs Ntuli?

MS NTULI: Yes, that is all for now. Unless I have forgotten something.

MS MOODLEY: Just one last question for clarity.

CHAIRPERSON: No, don't prod her memory please.

MS MOODLEY: Your home was a home where church meetings were held.

MS NTULI: Yes.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you.

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Mrs Ntuli, this neighbour that came to you and told you that if he died, you should know that Victor would have killed him, did he have a political affiliation of which you were aware?

MS NTULI: I knew that he was an Inkatha member.

MR NEL: Why do you presume that he forecasted that Victor would be involved?

MS NTULI: As a person who was fed up, he couldn't explain anything to me as a neighbour and as a child to me, he just told me that and he left and I couldn't continue discussing anything with him because of the situation.

MR NEL: Do you know if Victor had any political affiliation?

MRS NTULI: There was no sign that could tell me so, except for what I have just told you, just before this incident, but I never noticed anything before that incident.

MR NEL: You say that you left your home prior to this incident. How many days prior to this incident was that?

MS NTULI: I had left on a Monday and this incident took place on a Tuesday at night. I spent only one night and the following day, I heard this incident, that it had taken place over night.

MR NEL: You heard that my client, the gentleman sitting here next door to me, or next to me, that he apologised for the role that he played in this incident when he gave evidence yesterday. Is that correct?

MS NTULI: I do not take that as an apology but I can take it as something that is a mockery.

MR NEL: Why do you say that?

MS NTULI: It is as I have explained. As he had instructed the people to shoot and then he decided to go on with his way and he doesn't know of what happened after his instruction in thirteen years. Now he's coming forward to ask for apology, but I do not think he has forgiven me, because what he did to me, even those people are still after me, how can he ask for an apology if he hasn't forgiven me. If I accept his apology, he's going to live a happy life with his family, but I am still living in the forest because I'm running away from his bullets. I had to run away, I had to go and stay at Ezimboweni in 1988 and then even during that trial in 1995, the people were still after me. He's living happily in his home, but the battle is still going on. They are even after me. I had to run away from ...(indistinct) because during the trial, the people were still chasing me. I do not know how can I solve this, I really do not know how do I accept this kind of apology while this same person is still after me. I'm not even at my home. How can I accept his apology? How do I say that: "I forgive you"? Please advise me.

MR NEL: Mr Chair in conclusion, Mr Ntuli, my client, just as a matter of interest, left the area a month after this incident, that's thirteen years ago and also to you he asked me to convey his apologies with regard to the role that he played in that incident thirteen years ago. That's all. Thank you Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. Mrs Ntuli, where is Victor Ntuli now?

MS NTULI: Victor was shot in 1990.

MS THABETHE: Was this part of the conflict that was happening between IFP and ANC, would you say?

MS NTULI: As a person who was living at eZingulweni, it was not accepted for me to have a child who was attending in the other school, because he was coming from kwaMakutha, he was not allowed to be at kwaMakutha and then I had to ask the other people to accommodate him to stay there and continue in his old school. I heard that they were called to make peace at ...(indistinct) in kwaMakutha, that is the youth. That is when Victor was shot. I received a telephone call from the neighbour that Victor was shot on the 7th January.

MS THABETHE: Maybe you missed my question. My question was: was he killed as a result of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In view of her answer ...

MS NTULI: Not translated.

MS THABETHE: Sorry? Sorry Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she able to say? Is she able to answer the question in view of what she's just explained?

MS THABETHE: I think so Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: How is she able to answer the question? She said she heard what happened at a school. How is she then able to answer?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair she says there was a peace meeting, so I want to ascertain was the peace meeting between IFP and ANC, what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Can she answer the question? Was she there?

MS THABETHE: The meeting was called by the IFP. They had called the UDF or ANC youth to the peace meeting.

ADV SANDI: How old was Victor Ntuli Your son, when was he born?

MS NTULI: Victor was born in 1967.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mrs Ntuli, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other witnesses?

MS MOODLEY: Can I just be given half a minute? Thank you for the indulgence. I'm going to ask Mrs Ntuli's son, Mbuso Ntuli who's here today, he wants to be forded an opportunity, it will be very brief, but to share some thoughts with the Commission, if you would indulge him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ...(indistinct)

MS MOODLEY: I didn't hear.

CHAIRPERSON: What is he going to testify about?

MS MOODLEY: I think he's going to be able to shed a little bit of light around Victor himself. Mr Chairperson, I need to beg your indulgence. Mbuso thinks that this is something that he needs to do, that he wants to have not too much of the Commission's time. I understand the time constraints that we operate under.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I'm not too concerned about the time constraints because I live in this part, I'm just wondering what the purpose of this evidence is going to be. How is this evidence going to help us in any way comply with the Act? You see, by the facts of the matter, Victor was not at the scene of the attack and technically he's a victim because he was the target. If he were injured or killed at the time, maybe, what the next witness wants to tell us may have been appropriate. I'm in your hands. I don't know exactly what he's going to say and that's why I asked the question.

MS MOODLEY: I think, he is the younger brother of Victor Ntuli, he is a family member. He's walked a long way in kwaMakutha with the congregation and even as a youngster, he might be able to give a perspective to this Commission which hasn't actually been shared as yet, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well call him. I'm not sure of the value of the evidence, but carry on.

MS MOODLEY: Mr Mbuso Ntuli. He is sitting next to me and he's ready to be sworn in.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just for clarity, is that the person whose name appears on count 13?

MS MOODLEY: No, that is a Thusini, we're talking about Mbuso Ntuli. Mrs Ntuli's son. The last witness's son. He doesn't appear on the papers at all.

MBUSO NTULI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOODLEY: Mr Ntuli, you've asked for an opportunity to give evidence before this Commission. You think that you're able to actually shed light on advancing the interests and the objectives of this Commission. To that end I would ask you to be as brief as you can be to tell us a little bit more about this particular incident, if you have any of that information to share with us.

MR NTULI: I would like to say that I was always with Victor and I used to be involved in his affairs and during this incident I was with him in Lamontville. What I am trying to explain is the fact that there is no way that Victor could be a target, as it is described here. I believe that they had a certain motive. Maybe they wanted to scare the people in South Africa that were involved in politics, but there is no way, even his role in the township, we had a Youth League, but it was not UDF, it was just something that would be called a subsidiary of the UDF, we were trying to create packs in the township and he was not a permanent figure in that Youth League. There were other politicians who had better knowledge and there is no way that he was a political leader. When that question was raised that at my home people would go there and meet for political reasons, all the congregations have their own uniforms and the members of the Apostolic Church are always wearing white clothes. Women who would go to my home were not youth and even the rehearsals that they are talking about, it was not about the youth, they are talking about elderly people who would go there for rehearsals, married people, even the gentlemen there were wearing ties and jackets. You wouldn't see the UDI members toyi-toyiing wearing jacket and ties formally and you wouldn't see the elderly people wearing white hats, holding meetings as political leaders, those were the religious people. There's no way that the people would suspect that home was used as a place for political people.

MS MOODLEY: is there anything else you want to say?

MR NTULI: What I wanted to say about granting amnesty to Mr Cloete, I think this gentleman is living happily with his family. The people who were victimised, they do not have places to stay. We only managed to get a place to stay, during the time people were very scared and after this incident. This was not just a minor victimisation. Even the people were scared, they couldn't accommodate us, because they were scared of being attacked by the same people. Everybody would run away from you and you wouldn't know where to go. People would see you as a problem and you would bring troubles to his or her house. Then he was flying all over the country, going to Caprivi, going back home. We are here today and this Ndulana child does not have parents today because of him, then he's got his own family, he's living happily. What about the people who are going to say that he should get amnesty? What kind of change they are going to bring to the families' lives? It's not going to help us with anything. What's going to happen next? After losing my parents, I do not have a future, because I couldn't go to school and then he's here to ask for amnesty. What is that going to help us? I think he should reconsider that and even the role that he has explained, told us about here, it's not clear, it's a bit vague. You cannot prepare people to go and kill people that you don't even know whether those targets are children or elderly people. That is all.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Ntuli, were you present when Mr Cloete gave evidence yesterday?

MR NTULI: Yes.

MR NEL: Did you hear that he was not involved in the intelligence side of this operation or this incident, in the sense that he did not identify a victim, he in fact did not even know Victor Ntuli, did you hear that?

MR NTULI: Yes, I heard that.

MR NEL: The people who actually identified Victor as a target and who caused this attack, was one Bheki Khumalo who was on the intelligence side. Did you hear that?

MR NTULI: I do not believe that was the story. I heard him saying that but the person who could have been involved in this intelligence, even this gentleman, Mr Cloete, wouldn't prepare people to go and attack Victor only because he was also involved in training people as snipers, he could have done that alone, but he decided to embark on something that was called housekeeping.

MR NEL: But, do you know this Bheki Khumalo? Have you met him?

MR NTULI: No, not at all.

MR NEL: Were you also not aware of his amnesty application?

MR NTULI: I just heard that yesterday.

MR NEL: You - how old were you, or how old are you?

MR NTULI: I am 28 years old.

MR NEL: So 13 years ago you would have been 15 years old?

MR NTULI: Yes, I think I was between 14 and 15.

MR NEL: And Victor at that stage was 20 years old?

MR NTULI: I believe so because he was older than me. I think he was 19 at the time because he was doing standard 9.

MR NEL: Did you move in the same circles, or did you have - or did you not?

MR NTULI: What do you mean when you say same circles? Do you want to know whether I was involved in his affairs or not?

MR NEL: Yes.

MR NTULI: Yes, I was always with him, even during this incident we were together in Lamontville. He used to love me very much.

MR NEL: This neighbour that came to your mother and actually forecasted that when he died, your mother should know that Victor was involved, did you know this neighbour?

MR NTULI: Yes, very well.

MR NEL: Could you offer a reason as to why this neighbour would convey this type of message to your mother?

MR NTULI: There are so many reasons. This person was training us in Karate in the area, when he joined the IFP and the other young boys, because there was this Youth League and the others who were in the soccer team, most of the young boys who were involved there and some of them, most of them were in the Youth League, so we were always threatened. After threatening them, he went to my home to threaten us and the IFP members were scaring people and then he would always be after this soccer team. He was an enemy but not to the parents and he would even chase me during the night when he sees me. I would run away whenever I see him.

MR NEL: Why do you call him an enemy?

MR NTULI: When I say he was an enemy, he's a person who was staying ...(indistinct) to me because he would chase me whenever he sees me and even during the night he would try and do something to me. I am not saying that I knew that there was something that I could do to him.

MR NEL: You were clearly political opponents, not so?

MR NTULI: In his eyes, in his mind. To me he was just a neighbour and a person that I grew up while he was in the community, but in his mind we were his political opponents.

MR NEL: How did UDF people toyi-toyi?

MR NTULI: There was no UDF in our township, we only had kwaMakutha Youth League.

MR NEL: You said that UDF people - or you would never see UDF people toyi-toyi with ties. What did you mean by that?

MR NTULI: I was trying to say the people who were involved in the liberation movement, people who were in the liberation movement would be called UDF. Even if they were doing that, that would be youth, not elderly people in the community. You wouldn't find elderly people in my home, coming to church and those people would be referred to as UDF, those are two different things. The way those people used to dress in white clothes, they were totally different from politicians.

MR NEL: Just to conclude, I also wish to convey to you my clients apologies for the role that he in fact played in this matter. That's all. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, have you got any questions?

ADV SANDI: We have heard evidence here from the applicant that Victor Ntuli was handling monies for the UDF, do you know if he was handling monies for any political organisation?

MR NTULI: I was always with him, that was not possible. If we are talking about money, that is not true.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Just going back now to these church people, well what I've seen sometimes when Church people get together as a group, there would be a lot of singing. Would this have been the situation with this church group of people at the time?

MR NTULI: Not always. That does not mean that the members of the Apostolic Church when they gather they sing, but on Thursday would wear blue uniform, blue and white uniform and they would start singing, but it's not always and the church songs are different from liberation songs. Sometimes if there is counselling, they would be there and discuss the issues. That's all.

ADV SANDI: But the important thing is that when they get together, they would sometimes sing church songs.

MR NTULI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: But do you know if the UDF people would do the same when they got together? Do you know if they would sing church songs?

MR NTULI: First of all, there was no UDF in my township and the politicians, I do not think that they sing Church songs when they meet.

ADV SANDI: ... (inaudible) an issue. When were you at Lamontville? Was there any particular reason why you had to go there?

MR NTULI: There was a problem. I found myself in some minor problem. This problem, a house was attacked while we were camping, we were about to play for the Chappies League, the new team in our area. We had gone to a main hostel which was just across the street. We went there. People attacked there and a house was set alight. I took cover under the bed because when they broke the window, they poured petrol on this bed that I was underneath and then they lit the match. When they got in they turned over all the other beds but I escaped and this other neighbour of mine, Thulani Mkhize who was killed, his private parts were removed. I saw him taking red meat somewhere and he put this meat at the door and I don't know what happened, it was a very strange act and then I saw him with human body parts and he was a well-known IFP person. My neighbour person was a well-known IFP person and then he was chasing me because I had seen that act, that's how I got to Lamontville.

ADV SANDI: Thank you for your very long answer, Mr Ntuli. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other witnesses Ms Moodley?

MS MOODLEY: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the evidence? Ms Thabethe are you going to call any evidence? Nothing. Mr Nel, have you got any submissions?

MR NEL: I do, thank you Mr Chair.

MR NEL IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, my client applies for amnesty in respect of the murder of 14 people, plus the attempted murder of 4 people as set out on page 21 of bundle 1 and also any offence relating to the above incident.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Is there any application in respect of Mr Ntuli?

MR NEL: Victor himself? No, Mr Chair, but I did say any offence relating to the above incident.

JUDGE POTGIETER: That's why I'm asking you whether - but you say no, the application does not relate to Mr Ntuli at all.

MR NEL: Mr Chair insofar as any offence may have been committed with regard to Victor Ntuli, I trust that the rider to the application would cover that.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Ja but you don't want to make any particular submissions on that score? You're not making a specific submission, you are just throwing it in as a sort of a catch all, so I wanted to know if you have any specific submission in respect of Mr Ntuli.

MR NEL: Mr Chair, there was clearly a conspiracy to murder Victor Ntuli and my client has testified about that and I would beg then that this conspiracy to murder him would be included in his amnesty application.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Is that the only offence in respect of Mr Ntuli, the conspiracy?

MR NEL: I would say yes, yes Sir.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Thank you.

MR NEL: Mr Chair I wish to submit that one cannot properly evaluate the application if very careful consideration is not given to the following two aspects. Firstly the nature of Operation Marion, of which this incident forms a part and then secondly the nature of a military command structure of which my client was a subject. Now as far as Operation Marion is concerned, insofar as most of that is not common cause at this stage, the Committee heard the evidence of the applicant as to what he considered Operation Marion to be. I wish to refer the Committee specifically to a very useful summary by Director-General McNally of what Operation Marion was in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we rely on anything he says?

MR NEL: It's a summary.

CHAIRPERSON: You want us to rely on his summary. I'm asking you, is there anything we can accept, or rely on anything that gentleman had to say?

MR NEL: Mr Chair, much of the background of Operation Marion was rehashed in the relevant criminal trial, the kwaMakutha trial and I would trust that at this stage it was fairly common cause that Operation Marion was a government sponsored at least destabilisation programme of supposed opposition. Director-General McNally does make a summary of this operation and insofar as some of it may be acceptable to you, I would ask you to refer to it. I'm sure at this stage you've heard much more about Operation Marion than I or Director-General McNally may have heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what he says.

MR NEL: Mr Chair, I would submit that it's clear from - it was at least clear that Operation Marion was a politically motivated operation, with clear political objectives and that was to destabilise the nominal opposition by whatever means possible, which obviously included murder. This operation was not thought out by my client. The orders he received were from his direct superiors and were obviously in furtherance of this project.

Mr Chair, nobody has contested that my client's application falls full square within the framework of Operation Marion and as such I would submit that it was an act in the furtherance of a political objective. What is furthermore important is the very nature of what Operation Marion was, put into practice ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What would be the position of your client if he acceded to the whims and fancies of his Commanders under the guise of Operation Marion and he produced all these arms and trained people to do certain things, which was used in order to commit a bank robbery in the ordinary course of committing crime, would your client then be entitled to amnesty?

MR NEL: Mr Chair, I would say that if, in the context of Operation Marion, if it was conveyed to him that this was part of this destabilisation programme, if the intelligence conveyed to him was that the orders are to do the following because he would not even have to consider what the effect would be, that was not his job, if somebody would come to him and say: "Part of this programme is the following, we are going to break into a bank", then his job would be, I would suppose, to train the people to go into the bank, to train a sniper to sit somewhere, that type of involvement.

CHAIRPERSON: How can he hide behind the protection of having followed instructions merely to commit an ordinary crime, not a political crime? If he were to be told: "Look, you do this, that and the other" and it's not a political crime, can he then get amnesty because he thought that it was a political manoeuvre of which he was not informed?

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, I think that's the point I'm trying to make, subjectively, the matter must be looked at subjectively insofar as he would be under the impression that this was part of this operation, that is why he went to Caprivi. This is why he trained 200 people. That was conveyed to him along that basis. I would submit that he would be entitled to, because he would subjectively believe that he was involved in a matter with a political objective.

Mr Chair, to carry on the subject that I started off with, I wish to submit that everybody who was involved in this operation, foresaw right from the start that the practical achievements of the objectives of this Operation Marion, could only amount to State sponsored, Government sanctioned, what I would like to call aberatio ictus. That is what happened here. They got these people together, they trained them, they sent them out in the community, everybody knew right from the start that people are going to get killed and that innocent people were going to get killed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that your problem? Isn't that your difficulty? We have five victims here who died, all aged 10 and under. How does that fall within that political framework, whatever it may have been at the time? How does that advance the political agenda of the Nationalist Government Party? How did that advance the political agenda of let's say the IFP? Is the death of five children, how can it be described as politically motivated?

MR NEL: Mr Chair, once again I must refer back to this Operation Marion. The whole objective of this operation was to destabilise in whatever form, the opposition. It was, as my client has described it, urban counter-terrorism. We know what terrorism is. Terrorism is to put fear into your opposition. It's like throwing a bomb into a bar. There doesn't have to be anybody inside, but next time nobody goes into that bar.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your client refer to this episode as counter-terrorism?

MR NEL: Sorry, Mr Chair, he referred to it as urban ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I would have thought that the appropriate description would have been terrorism itself.

MR NEL: I would agree with that, but this was sponsored terrorism, it was directed at destabilising the opposition in whatever form.

JUDGE POTGIETER: So it wasn't aberatio ictus, it was terrorism aimed at specific vulnerable groups, at children and women, so as to create maximum propaganda, is that the submission?

MR NEL: Or maximum fear, Mr Committee Member, maximum fear, destabilisation of the opposition. "Don't belong to that party. If you belong to that party, you get hurt", that type of thing.

ADV SANDI: Do you achieve that objective by killing four-year old children, six years old, seven years old, seven years old, eight years old, women also? How do you achieve that political objective of destabilising your political opponent?

MR NEL: It's the same with throwing a bomb. You don't know who's going to get killed, but you frighten people, you terrorise people.

ADV SANDI: You see one of the major problems here is that there's no evidence from the applicant that at the time they were about to carry out the attack, there was evidence to the effect that any one of the people who subsequently got killed or injured, belonged to the other side in the political conflict. They were not conceived to be political opponents or enemies. There was no evidence of that sort.

MR NEL: I think, Mr Committee Member ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: The aim, as I understood his evidence, was to kill a 20 year old youth, Victor Ntuli. In the end they kill a whole lot of people and these people are children and women.

MR NEL: Then we must look very carefully at my client's role. It's very easy to over-estimate or under-estimate his role. We must go back right to the start. We must go back to the training in the Caprivi and this is borne out by the record. The training done in the Caprivi, when it came to house clearing in this specific instance, was to clear the house of everybody inside. We all know what that means. That was standard operating procedure, it was not something - that was where he was involved and that's it. He was not involved in the identification of the victim, or who were inside the house. He was, as I said yesterday, he was presented with a baked cake. It was put in front of him already. He had not gathered the intelligence, he had not identified the victim at all, he did not determine that there would be 10 men, he did not determine that there would be 10 guns, it was given to him on the scene. All he had to do was to drill them. He was a drill sergeant.

JUDGE POTGIETER: But Mr Nel, you know, you're confusing me because you see, unless I misunderstood your client completely, as my colleague indicates to you and that is my recollection of his version as well, was that they were primarily going to kill Mr Ntuli, that was the objective and this question of a house clearing and that is part of my confusion in view of your submission, part of the house clearing, or the question of house clearing only came into the picture if Mr Ntuli was indeed a victim and he was indeed present in the house. If he was there then they would execute the order to eliminate him and they would wipe out everybody else who could constitute a possible threat to the perpetrators in the sense of exposing them, having them arrested, having them successfully prosecuted and so on. So that is how I understood your client's evidence. The house clearing was conditional on Mr Ntuli being the primary victim and being present there and him being attacked in the process. Unless I misunderstood it completely.

MR NEL: Thank you Sir. Just to come back. The important aspect here is the dependence of, not so much the dependence but the intelligence side of this to which my client was not a party. The intelligence was to the effect that Victor Ntuli would be in this house and the house must be cleared, those were his orders. "Victor Ntuli is inside the house, go clear the house." He then goes, all he does, that's all what his job in this whole affair amounts to, is to drill the people., the same people that he drilled up in the Caprivi, he now has a rehearsal with them. He's a drill sergeant, he makes sure that they know how to handle their guns. He is not concerned with Victor Ntuli's presence or not. That's not for him to decide. He is told he is going to do it.

JUDGE POTGIETER: No, no, I follow that. That's a step further in the process. I'm still a little bit back. Did I understand your client's testimony correctly that the house-cleaning element only came into this operation if Mr Ntuli was indeed part of the victims? That is how this thing was conceptualised. Ntuli is going to be killed. They will wipe out whichever unfortunate people find themselves in his presence. Is that understanding correct? That's where on starts building up - evaluating your client's application, so unless I'm mistaken about that, then of course you know I've got a difficulty in building it further.

MR NEL: Thank you Sir. I understand it slightly differently. I understand it that once he has received this intelligence that Victor Ntuli is in the house, then he just carries on and tells the people.

JUDGE POTGIETER: No, no, no, I might very well agree with you on that score. I'm still a bit back. I mean the whole operation, I'm talking about the operation, how it was conceptualised, how did they work it out? It was worked out on the basis that they're going to kill Mr Ntuli and they're going to wipe out whoever is found to be in his presence, in his company. Is that a proper understanding of what your client was telling us?

MR NEL: I think that is correct, but on the assumption, or presumption, whatever, that Victor, he subjectively accepted Ntuli is there, the Intelligence guys told him Ntuli is there, he tells his soldiers,: "Okay, this is what you do, this is how you clear the house", he does not concern himself further whether he is present there or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Nel, I think you have become a victim, like I have become a victim on many occasions. In all these for former Security Police, they ...(indistinct). You submitted here that actually this whole event was an act of terrorism to create fear in the minds of the victims, correct? That was never the evidence of your client. The client came here and said: "Look, the rationale behind this attack was to kill Victor Ntuli and in doing so we house cleaned of all witnesses. We leave no prisoners, we don't want any people to say who did this." Isn't that what he said?

MR NEL: That's correct, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: In my mind then, if that is the rationale, there can be no other rationale like an act of terrorism, like planting a bomb, this was a specific act that was committed on a specific rationale, to kill the target Mr Victor Ntuli and in doing so, you house clean, that's how I understood his evidence. Now this other story of what happened there was an act of terrorism, that's what confused me, because he can't have two reasons for wanting to attack that house. Now going further, that's why I asked you the question, is your client entitled to hide behind this veil of having acted under orders? Surely not. He himself testified that he was told that Victor Ntuli was the paymaster, or something to do with the UDF Treasury and that's why he was a target. He was then asked to prepare the attackers. He was asked on a number of occasions by the Panel I think and by Ms Moodley, if that be the case, why was it necessary to prepare 10 people and equip them with 10 AK 47 rifles? He then told us that look, it crossed his mind and then he proceeded and said: "Yes, he did think of other people being in the house". He had difficulty explaining how that could be attached to the political motivation if he didn't know whether there are going to be people in that house and who they were. That's the trend - in Afrikaans we say: "Dis die trand van sy getuienis", now it's on that basis that we are here to determine whether he's entitled to amnesty for that act, or not. By the way, before you carry on I wish to remind you also that he conceded that based on the evidence that he's given us, he's stuck with what those attackers did and if they committed some act negligently, he's stuck with it because he's relying on what they did and those are the difficulties we have.

MR NEL: Mr Chair, I will attempt to answer. I referred earlier to an act of terrorism, it was always by way of example. The rationale behind the form of attack, or the way the attack is planned, was not worked out by my client. He never determined that 10 people would go to this house. He never determined that there would be 10 rifles. That was not his part of the operation. That was predetermined.

ADV SANDI: He never objected to that predetermination of 10 attackers to be involved in the operation and the same number of AK47s. He seems to have gone along with that predetermina-tion.

MR NEL: It was not his place to object Sir, with all respect.

ADV SANDI: ...subsequently did the rehearsal which was part of the planning, a very important part of the planning, shortly before they went out to effect the attack.

MR NEL: I think we are stretching the term "planning" here. The planning had been done at the time my client arrived at Ulundi, the planning had been done. The ten people had been arranged and he didn't ask for them. The ten guns had been arranged. That was Intelligence that determined that 10 people would partake in this attack. It was not his decision, he's the drill sergeant. It had already been predetermined. It was not for him to say: "We only need five", "we only need one", or "we only need two". It was a given, he had to accept it. His Captain says: "Here are the ten people you have to drill to attack the house", so he drills them. That's what happened. It's not for him to object.

ADV SANDI: Wouldn't it be a very artificial situation where you say someone who gets involved in the rehearsal immediately before the attack is carried out, was not involved in the planning of the attack? It sounds very artificial to me. Anyway, you can carry on with the trend of your argument.

MR NEL: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be much longer Mr Nel? Well shall we take a break then to allow the interpreters a rest? We adjourn for fifteen minutes.

MR NEL IN ARGUMENT: (cont)

Mr Chairman, coming back to Operation Marion, the context within which my client acted, I would say the intention behind this operation was clearly insofar as specific incidents were carried out, like in this instance. It was at all times foreseen that people associated with such identified opponents would be killed in the process. The training, this was described my client, was not designed by him, but it was aimed they had to eliminate everybody, to leave no witness, so that no fingers could be pointed back at the bosses. The orders received by him, taken by him not given by my client, were to eliminate everybody. Once again, no witnesses to be left, no fingers pointed to the bosses and I wish to submit when proportionality is therefore considered that it only becomes a factor once it is established that my client has not done exactly as he was ordered to do and trained to do. In this regard, I wish to refer to Judge Hugo's Judgment in this matter, where he pertinently found that my client's version is the most likely version of all the evidence that he heard over the period of so many days, if not months in that matter and I will refer back to this when I deal with the bundles, where he found specifically that my client's version, that was in fact the order in terms of the training, it was the most likely version.

I referred earlier to the military command structure. I think it's important to consider the position of my client at the time. He was a sergeant. Attempts have been made to romanticise or to fantasise an enhanced role for him, but there's nothing to support such a fantasy, with respect. Now if one is ignorant of a command structure between or that was in existence between my client and Capt Opperman, or choose to ignore my client's effective role in the incident, it is easy to look for probabilities which are in fact improbable in a military command structure, the client's evidence is that he simply trained the participants in the attack, firstly in the Caprivi and in accordance with standard operating procedures and secondly insofar as it is relevant to this application, before the attack by rehearsing their drill with them, nothing more. That is how he was involved basically, if we cut the ...(indistinct)

He did not determine that there should be 10 participants, that was not part of his job, that was Intelligence. He did not determine that there should be 10 rifles, once again not part of his job. He did not have to know what the opposition was or necessarily who the victim was to be, it did not concern him, it was not part of his job description. His job was to ensure that the participants were sharpened up to do a job which had been predetermined and not by him. The latter were his orders and basically all that he was concerned with, he did not need to know more, because the very nature of his job was simply to drill the participants, as I've already said. Once again, on this aspect, it is very interesting to note that Judge Hugo pertinently found that my client's version is to be preferred. I will refer to this later again.

With your permission, I would like to refer to the bundles because I find a lot of corroboration for my client's version in the bundles. I would try to keep it short. But just before I commence therewith, there's one aspect that should also be considered and that is my client did not actually even have to have been on the scene to have been involved in this matter. He did not even have to be the drill sergeant of the day because he had already given these training, the type of training, in the Caprivi. For that matter, if they were sharp enough and Intelligence felt that they were sharp enough and there was a later case and they were asked the question: "But why did you do the house clearing on this basis?", their answer would have been: "But that is the way we were trained by Sgt Cloete" and he would have been involved. It so happened now that because he was on the scene hours before the incident, he is perceived to be more involved. That's why I say it's very easy to over-emphasis his actual role in this matter.

With your permission Mr Chair, just briefly referring to evidence described, if you refer to the bundles as well, I find some corroboration in the bundles for my client's version. Bundle Number 1, page 1609, his evidence there that he was not part of the actual attack plan, that he was only involved with the training relating to the penetration of the house based on what the Intelligence was at the time. Page 1616, it's clear from the evidence there that everything was arranged beforehand. Page 1619, it's clear that there were no military plans worked out as in normal circumstances. Also on page 1621 and 1622, he was extensively questioned as to why there were no set plans. The simple answer to that Mr Chairman, that this was not a normal military operation, there were no plans as such. In referring to bundle 2, the evidence of Mr Opperman, Opperman gives a description himself of what is understood by house-clearing on page 238. He gives an exact description of house-clearing that my client gave. From page 274 and 276, it's very clear who was in charge of this operation. It was Opperman and nobody else. For instance he decides who shoots, he decides who's the driver. The same on page 275. Page 277, Opperman's evidence, the second-last paragraph:

It's basically a summary of his evidence, but he took control, he worked out the plan, he decided what would happen.

Very interesting to note that on page 281 at the top his answer to a question there which relates to the prior information that would have been given to the operatives or the participants:

He emphasises that. That corroborates my client's version that he was not earlier aware of who the exact victim would be.

In his evidence on that same page at the bottom, the second last paragraph, he also refers and I will quote, he says:

Mr Chair, I once again seek corroboration there for my client's version in that house clearing was the instruction, determined by Intelligence and that it was the drill that he went through and nothing more than that.

Page 316 and 318 once again the emphasis on secrecy, emphasised by Opperman. The only person who was prepared to admit all along what house-clearing in effect really meant, was my client and I would request you to give him credit for that. He was really the only person who admitted what house-clearing was and he never tried to hide behind fanciful words and ideas in this regard.

On page, for easy reference, page 467 to 469 you'll find a very brief summary of what exactly happened there in Opperman's own words, which once again corroborates my client's version.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Which bundle is that Mr Nel?

MR NEL: That's also bundle 2, Sir, 467 to 469 and on page 470 at about line 20, it's very clear that this whole operation was Opperman's operation. You'll see there, the question asked him:

Mr Chair, I'm referring to this simply to find corroboration for my client's version in that he was only the drill sergeant and that was his role and with respect, you can follow the questioning there right up until page 473 about half-way through, which really makes very interesting reading.

Then as far as bundle 4 is concerned, I wish to refer you to page 8 which is a summary of the Judgment of the Judge, where in the summary reference is made to the fact that my client's version was preferred. Page 12, there were two findings made in favour of my client's version, firstly as to what house-clearing meant and what the order was, in that he was ordered by Opperman in terms of the intelligence, to effect the house-clearing and drill the participants in accordance with that order. That was a finding specifically made in his favour and then page 12, a further specific finding made by the Judge that it was more probable that my client never knew beforehand who the victim would be and with respect, the Judge did have the opportunity to listen to the witnesses at length, Mr Cloete, Mr Opperman, Mr Khumalo, I think they jointly spent about 20 days under cross-examination. So even if it sounds improbable my client didn't know beforehand, I would submit that he made a full disclosure and that he told the Committee the truth when he said that he didn't need to know who the victim was beforehand because that was not part of his, he did not need to know that, simple as that, in terms of the military structure at the time.

Also corroboration for that in bundle 1 you'll find that cross-examiner there puts Khumalo's statement - if you'll bear with me a second. I'm not sure which bundle I'm referring to, but I'll disregard that, but with reference to Khumalo's application itself, that is bundle number 3, the note on page 17 and reference is made by Khumalo in his application to the meetings that he had with Opperman, no mention is made of Cloete. I cannot find the exact reference to which I earlier referred, but Khumalo's statement was also put to Cloete at one stage, the whole statement was put by the cross-examiner and even in that statement, no reference was made to the presence of my client at these meetings when the identifying of the victims was discussed.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Mr Opperman JP?

MR NEL: That's correct, Sir. Then in this application of Khumalo himself, if you would refer to page 20, where Khumalo describes what happened at Ulundi, where the drill took place, in the middle of the sentence:

Even in his evidence it's clear that the intelligence relating to this whole operation was only conveyed there on the scene at Ulundi.

And then very interestingly on page 24, which also corroborates my client, in the middle, the cross-exam, or the person acting for Mr Khumalo, Mr Steward, says the following:

Mr Chairman, I wish to submit that my client made a full disclosure of the role that he played in this incident, that he was a drill sergeant and nothing more, that the orders taken by him were to drill the people in accordance of the predetermined method of attack, the predetermined method as determined by the Intelligence group, which in this case would have to be a house-clearing, but he did not have to consider the matter any further. He may even not have been on the scene if the people knew exactly what they had to do. He was there just to sharpen them up and nothing more. That the motive was clearly to serve the government, that the context in which he did was clearly the political activities of the government or the SADF at the time. We all know what the nature of the act is at this stage. It was the murder or attempted murder and various other offences committed in the process aimed at political opponents, or in the very nature of the framework within which they worked, this Operation Marion, a destabilisation of a political institution like the ANC.

I wish to submit it is clear that he committed the offences in the execution of an order, clear it was not for personal gain or out of malice, he basically got his salary at the end of the month and nothing more. I wish to submit that his application complies with the Act. I also wish to emphasise that in the application, we did refer to the kwaMakutha trial, which was common cause at that stage. The records were available. It was not available to client, but he did refer to that, so I would submit that there cannot be any criticism insofar as the form itself does not contain enough detail. There were further particulars given on more than one occasion.

I wish to submit that subjectively he believed that he carried out a valid order based on the intelligence given to him and that as far as his role in this whole matter is concerned, that he should be granted amnesty. Thank you Mr Chair.

MS MOODLEY IN ARGUMENT: I think the task for me today is going to be confined by Section 20. My instructions have been to oppose this application for the granting of amnesty. I will deal shortly with Mr Nel's submissions, but I want to deal

briefly firstly with the requirements that an applicant seeking amnesty would have to pass muster and I think in that regard, Mr Cloete's going to have a fair amount of difficulty in satisfying a couple of these requirements.

In particular I think Section 20 (b), whether the act, omission or offence to which the applicant relates, is an act associated with a political objective committed in the course of the conflicts of the past and in accordance with the provisions of (2) and (3).

The political objective we cannot find for Mr Cloete, in terms of my instruction. Certainly if Victor Ntuli had either been, had he been killed or had he been victim number 14 on the indictment, then...(indistinct) to consider an application for amnesty. But what do we have here? We have 13 murders, this is a mass murder and a mass murderer asking for amnesty in relation to senior men, old men, women and children. It is very easy to talk about declaratory theories about what my job is and what my job entails, but let's go to the paperwork in regard to Operation Marion. I do not want to bore the Commission unnecessarily or burden you unnecessarily with reams and reams of documents that you have already seen, but I'm going to refer briefly to a submission made already to the TRC or about August 1997, in regard thereto on page 3 of that submission, there is comment made on Operation Marion documents and this particular paragraph on page 3 reads:

At the foot of this page there is a note, number 2, which says:

So to suggest that this applicant did not know that what they were busy with was pure murder and not implementing the objectives that Operation Marion is too rich to expect a Commission to accept as something that would be sufficient to satisfy a political objective and I think Mr Cloete's application falls short in that regard.

When issues of house-clearing were raised with both Mr Cloete and Opperman independently at the trial, there were various versions given at different stages of the record. The record cannot be read selectively, one has to have the benefit of the entire record before one begins to make opinions about who is the better of the two liars. I have a problem with taking out selected pieces of the record in support of the contention that what Mr Cloete said at the trial was that he was only asked to train Caprivi trainees out in South West and all he did was to bring them back and then train them again before they went out on their operations.

His evidence at the trial never read coherently as one piece and I think it would be - we would actually be committing a bit of mischief if we allowed selective portions of that record to actually be presented to the Commission without the benefit of the full record. But be that as it may, I move on and I go on to the next point of (c) Section 20, whether the applicant has made a full disclosure of all relevant facts.

It is my client's instructions that they do not believe that Mr Cloete has been totally honest about what his role in this whole operation has been. Mr Cloete has said so and it is there in the record again, that his job was to eliminate whatever he found at a particular home that was earmarked for attack. Today he says that he's very sorry for what has happened, but there seems to be a lot of forgetting with being very sorry. You've still not told us exactly what has happened in relation to this incident.

Mr Nel spoke about Director-General McNally providing a summary of operations at this trial. I must tell you that my clients view the trial as a means afforded to the senior political leadership of this country where deception continues in courts of law and the overstretched prosecutorial services are not able really to get their act together to bring about thorough and effective prosecutions. A lot of people that have actually submitted themselves to this trial, relied on what can be referred to as plausible deniability, or the blind eye syndrome. They choose not to rely on - to rather rely on the unlikelihood of an adequate or decent and reasonable prosecutorial service never happening. A lot of them place distance between the acts on the ground and the decisions taken at the highest level and of course, some people will argue that the applicant in this matter is possibly a foot soldier because often we've heard him being described as a drill sergeant. We beg to differ. This was no ordinary drill sergeant. This was a person who was intimately involved with the training of recruits in the Caprivi, who should have known better. He was not just a rotten apple that surfaced. He knew what his job entailed, he had an agenda and he implemented that agenda. It's easy to say all he did was his job, but at Nuremberg lots of people said all they did were their jobs, but you don't do these jobs by being detached from your circumstance, you live in a society, you know women and children in any situation, even in war, women and children are sacrosanct, I mean they are casualties, but you don't actually orchestrate, engineer, plot with a view regardless of who is going to be in a four-roomed house in a township in South Africa, because you know full well the likelihood of there being women and children is very real.

There is an impression that has been created here today that this Operation Marion was an operation of such great secrecy that every person involved in there, only knew as much as he was told, but I think that is being economical with the truth, and it's not about being romantic or romanticising the role of the applicant, it's just being as honest and blatant as we can be about the fact that before he left the Caprivi, he was, despite being the drill sergeant, well connected with Col Blaauw. Col Blaauw ultimately left the service under the dark cloud. When the applications were being considered for the employment of people in KwaZulu Natal, only two people made it and only two people knew about this, it was Opperman and Cloete. If I turn to the bundle now, bundle 2 on page 242, third paragraph, Opperman says:

This was an operation that a lot of people wanted to get into. The barometer of where our country has been, the fact that both of your made it, speaks volumes about the profile we're dealing with and the character we're dealing with and there must be acknowledgement for that. One can't wish that away. So I take ...

Mr Nel talked about a political objective that his client had. Considering all the facts in this matter, there would have been political objective, but there was also room and space for malice ...(indistinct) and also gain. Gain I won't deal with now because in fact that is the area for Col Blaauw and the stories that go around him, not for today, but for today we can talk about the applicant and about what was going through his mind when he was preparing 10 people. We've heard it being said that he was just given 10 people. I beg to differ. Ten people were sent in with a view to eliminating anything that moved and that was not military procedure. Military procedure, when questions were put to the applicant by Mr Maritz, the answers in relation to what kind of attack would one launch if there were children in the house, if it was a hospital that you were going into. The responses were that if people couldn't return fire, then you wouldn't kill them, but if people were in a position to return fire, that's when you would want to have to clear the house out and my submission is that there was no scenario here requiring the house to be cleared out.

To address the issue of subjectivity and to take the applicant as you find him, I think one has to be mindful of the fact that if you would start talking subjectively, then you're talking about biases that one needs to then bring before the Commission and that bias would lead one to say that you didn't value black lives, for you it was immaterial whether there were going to be 20 children, or 5 children, or whatever. If you have to be judged subjectively, it could work very harshly and not in your favour, but that is what the position is. We take you as we find you, warts and all.

The objective of the National Party at the time, in terms of a political framework, was certainly about containing an onslaught, but nowhere would it have authorised or enabled you to actually continue on a crazy mass murdering basis to eliminate people. I think the applicant falls short of that kind of cover that he would seek to hide behind.

The issue of urban counter-terrorism, I don't think I'm even going to address it because I don't think it's appropriate or in point. I think we're dealing with an attack with a particular motive and a target and not any kind of urban counter-terrorism. We must remember there was a high moral ground, in my client's opinion, was held by those that were denied the vote, not by those that had the coffers, the access to means, resources, to retain the status quo, so one must be guarded about talking about objectives of the National Party. The moral high ground was the high ground in part, the liberation struggles and you don't have to be in a political party to be a liberator. If you were black in this country, it did make you one - put you on the moral high ground, not automatically, but for the fact that if you had the force of the government who was able to play with the lives of people, as they did, the applicant can't sit here and think that all these circumstances that informed society, informed the country, just goes out of the window. It can't.

Going back to Section 20 paragraph (3) and (f), it reads:

In terms of my instruction, we believe that the applicant acted beyond his course and scope of the call of duty and had no implied authority to do what he did.

We are now down to the bottom of the barrel, as I've said before, where we're looking at ill-will or spite directed at victims of the act. The applicant might not have known the particular identities of the deceased in this massacre, but he was certainly mindful that there was going to be loss of life and he was reckless and non-caring about that real eventuality.

Turning to the record and in particular to the Judgment of Judge Hugo, as I have said before, we have a difficulty coming to the same decision in regard to the reliability of one witness, particularly the applicant, over Opperman. Would you bear with me for a minute please?

I turn to bundle 4 and page 11 where Judge Hugo describes Andre Cloete as:

I don't know how this absolves anybody from accountability and blame because his character, his demeanour is characterised by being weak. My clients' instructions are that can certainly not be the last word on the character of the applicant before this Commission. Our difficulty, as we have alluded to before, is that you have here two unreliable witnesses and I say unreliable and I hear too and I take the point that my colleague makes, that Opperman, as Judge Hugo measured him, would have been a better liar than Cloete because he says Cloete's evidence is to be relied upon more than Opperman.

I turn now to page 4 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moodley, we're in no way going to rely on Judge Hugo's findings as to credibility or character findings, we are going to make our own.

MS MOODLEY: I'm grateful for that, but I just want to finish off very quickly then in regard to page 4535, the last page of the Judge's Judgement, which is very indicative. It says:

I'm going to suggest to this Commission that is one of the reasons that the applicant is before this Commission. There is this sword hanging over him, a possible sword coming down, prosecution.

I think I've said as much as I need to say, unless the Commission wants me to address them on anything else.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe have you got any submissions?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I would exercise my statutorial right to remain neutral and I leave that decision in the capable hands of the Committee. Thank you.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Sorry Ms Thabethe, I'm going to infringe your rights. Mr Nel submits that insofar as the issue of proportionality is concerned, provided the applicant can show that he acted within his orders regardless of the extent of the consequences, he's covered insofar as the issue of proportionality is concerned. What are your views on that? Is that a proper submission, or will you remain neutral on that too?

MS THABETHE: My opinion, Mr Chair, based on the Act and also on the evidence, I would submit that the person following orders cannot be held liable for consequences of the actions with regard to those orders, unlike the person who issues those orders, he would be liable for the consequences of the orders and thereby would be liable for the proportionality thereof. That would be my submission.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Even if the perpetrator subjectively foresees that what he's called upon to execute, is out of all proportion, to kill a whole crèche full of children to make a public statement?

MS THABETHE: Well Mr Chair, I'm not very familiar with the structure of the Military Intelligence, how one in his rank has powers to exercise his opinion as opposed to following orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't become a slave to the idea that everybody must follow orders. The law, the common law is that if you're ordered to commit a crime, then you're entitled to refuse. Argue it in that sense.

MS THABETHE: In that case, Mr Chair, as I've indicated before, I'm not very familiar with the Intelligence structure, but taking into regard the common law as you have indicated it to me, if a person can foresee that an offence is about to happen and does have powers to refuse, not to follow that order, then I would say he has an obligation to refuse. If he does or if he can, he does have powers to refuse, the he would be obliged to refuse, especially if he has foreseen that.

CHAIRPERSON: If he didn't then answer the question that my colleague has put to you. If he didn't refuse, how does that impact on the issue of proportionality?

MS THABETHE: I think he would be liable, as the superior who gave that order would be liable as well.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Yes, because are we not called upon to assess the individual application? We have to assess what is placed before us and that is why there is no provision for collective applications and that sort of thing.

MS THABETHE: Yes, I would say so Mr Chairman, except that in the evidence it is not clear with regard to the foreseeable issue.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Well the submission, as I understand, the submission is well look, all these women and children got killed in this incident, yes, it is a terrible thing, yes the applicant says that if he was in charge here he would never have gone through with this operation, applicant says it's an absolute failure from that perspective. The submission is that well, in spite of all of that, you can't hold any of this against the applicant, the fact that there are how many children killed and how many women killed and injured and so on, you can't hold it against him, you can hold it against whoever conceived of this attack and I think that's the thing that - that is how I understand the submission. I'll hear what Mr Nel says further about that.

MS THABETHE: I think as well, the Committee will have to really consider the issue of whether you can separate the whole purpose of Operation Marion as a whole, because when we look at the purpose of Operation Marion as a whole and the concept of house-cleaning, it does put a question mark on the proportionality. Now, I don't know whether the Committee is going to separate between what the Intelligence had to decide and the role players in the whole operation and their liability to that effect, because I think that's the gist of the applicant's application, that he is saying: "Separate the two role players", that is the Intelligence on the one hand and the role players on the other hand and I don't know what stance the Committee Members are going to follow. Are they going to separate the two? Are they going to look at the Operation Marion as a whole and the whole purpose of Operation Marion as having been disproportional in the sense that it supported or it's intention was to house-clean, irrespective of who the target was.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, let us forget all the legal niceties. Here the applicant was party to an operation to kill Mr Ntuli and to house-clean. Mr Ntuli was not there. The result of their activities, a lot of women and children were killed, left in the trail of devastation after what they did. How proportionate is the results of their activities to the aims of Operation Marion? Is it proportionate?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, it's very difficult for me to answer that question and I'll tell you why it's difficult, because I don't know whether Mr Chair is suggesting that Victor Ntuli was in the house, then it would make it proportional, the fact that children and innocent people were killed, or Mr Chair is suggesting that the people who went there to kill, should have ensured whether Victor Ntuli is in the house or not before house-cleaning.

JUDGE POTGIETER: No Ms Thabethe, the facts that - the Chair is putting the facts to you. We must decide it on the facts of this case. We don't need to speculate about this. The fact of the case is that the primary victim was Mr Ntuli. Mr Ntuli wasn't there. They ended up killing all these people. By all accounts, there can't be any doubt in anybody's mind, innocent people, not even people, it's innocent children and women. Now the question is and to my mind there are two questions. The first leg is the one that the Chairperson has touched upon now, is it proportional, one, two that's the submission - where the submission of Mr Nel comes into it, can the applicant be heard to say: "Well, even if it's not proportional, I had been acting within the orders that I had and therefore you can't touch me", that's how I understand it, you know.

ADV SANDI: Ms Thabethe, sorry, just before you answer that. In addition to the flurry of questions my colleague has just asked you, can this type of action be classified as an action against a political opponent, a political enemy? Isn't it envisaged in the Act, when you look at Section 20(3)(d) that the action must have been taken against a member or a supporter of an opponent political organisation in the cause of the conflict that was taking place during the period in question? We had evidence here from the applicant that he did not even know who was going to be there, let alone the political affiliation of those people.

MS THABETHE: I would submit that if Victor Ntuli was the target, killing innocent children in his absence, is not proportional.

ADV SANDI: There was also no evidence that attempts had been made at some other time or places, to attack or kill Mr Ntuli and that this was the only place where they could find him and kill him. There was no evidence to that effect.

MS THABETHE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: ...I does not seem to me that it was ever given a thought to attack him at some other place where they would not kill innocent people who had nothing to do with the political activities of Mr Ntuli.

MS THABETHE: At the same time there is a question about the subjective view, that is the belief of the people who went to attack them.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely proportionality can't be subjective. How do you measure proportionality on a subjective basis?

MS THABETHE: I have indicated that it was not proportional, but I'm saying on the other hand there's an issue about the belief of the people who went there, which is a subjective view.

CHAIRPERSON: What ...(indistinct) belief?

MS THABETHE: A belief that Victor Ntuli was in the house, that's the belief I understand that they had, that Victor Ntuli was in the house.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but if an applicant says: "I had a subjective belief that X, Y, Z was the situation, isn't he supposed to lay a foundation for that belief? He can't simply make a statement and say: "This is what I believed". He's got to try and justify why he had this type of belief in his mind.

JUDGE POTGIETER: And in any case Ms Thabethe, the Chair has pointed out to you that what is the relevance of subjectivity in the test of proportionality. Isn't that a test where one weighs up the facts of the matter? We as Panel, in terms of what the Act says, we weigh up the facts of the case. That's it.

MS THABETHE: I was referring to the question about whether Victor Ntuli was there or not. I'm saying, according to the applicant's evidence, he says he was informed that Victor Ntuli would be there and he was given orders to prepare these people on the basis that he would be there and I'm saying the belief is that he prepared them knowing that the target would be there and the fact that he wasn't there, the people who went there believed that he would be there, I'm not talking about the proportionality as such, but I'm saying on the other hand the Committee has to consider that point.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moodley, can you tell me, Pomelele Ndlovo, who is a deceased, count 6, is that person a male or female?

MS MOODLEY: It's the daughter of Mrs Ntuli.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, following on the point you're making, there this gang goes there, armed, they're looking for a 20 year old male. There's no one who was a victim as listed in the charge sheet, that comes close to a 20 year old male. Why didn't they just abort then? They're looking for a 20 year old male person to shoot. There's no one like that there, but while they're there, they might as well clean the house up and shoot all these people, some of whom were probably sleeping like the children. There's no question, or no doubt in my mind, that those children would not pose a threat to them subsequent to the attack. How were they going to identify the attackers?

MS THABETHE: That's why, Mr Chair, I said the attack was not proportional because for one, if the target was Victor Ntuli, there could have been other means to attack Victor Ntuli and save the father, the mother, everybody who was in the house. I concede that the act was not proportional, hence I said at the beginning, it goes back to the whole Operation Marion and its purposes of house-cleaning and also of the people who were involved in the surveillance of this incident and the people who gave orders that there should be house-cleaning. It goes back to all those people, not only the applicant, as to why they didn't consider the other options.

JUDGE POTGIETER: You've answered the first leg of that point. Thank you Ms Thabethe, but is it open for the applicant to now say: "No but those were my orders. I'm sorry, it was my orders, I've done exactly what I was ordered to do, so that's the end of the inquiry." Yes, even conceding that this was a terrible, as I've heard, I think I've heard the applicant saying that this is something that he was in charge of. He would never have ordered this thing to happen. So in spite of all that, is it now open for an applicant to come and say: "Look, in spite of all that, you've got to accept that I executed an order, I did exactly what I was told to do and that's it"?

MS THABETHE: I think Mr Chair, I would like not to answer that question and maybe my learned colleague representing the applicant would like to answer that one.

JUDGE POTGIETER: I won't infringe your rights any further Ms Thabethe, but that you very much for your assistance. Obviously these are questions that we have to exercise our minds on and we need whatever assistance we can get. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, on the last issue, do you want to add anything?

MR NEL IN REPLY: I think that the role that my client played must be considered before all else. He relied on certain intelligence, that is all that was available to him. He did not order ten hit men to come and attend to this drill, this had been determined prior to his I would almost want to say getting involved on a specific day. These people that attended the drill were the trainees that he had trained in the Caprivi and that is the reason why he was required to give this refresher course. The intelligence is all that he knew and that was, in this case, a ten man hit squad is required to exercise this job. This was given to him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, if I can interrupt here. Do you concede that the applicant was not really a small actor or a small fish in the occurrence of the events we are referring to here? He trained those people in Caprivi, he came back into the country with them, he was involved at the time they were about to execute the operation. He wasn't just you know like the normal foot soldier who was told to do this and that is all. That doesn't seem to me to be the type of so-called foot soldier we're dealing with here.

MR NEL: With respect, I cannot agree with that at all. Corporals and sergeants drilled people, that was their job in the army and lieutenants and captains drilled people. In any army set-up corporals and sergeants do the drilling.

Somebody had to drill them and that was his job.

ADV SANDI: He was involved in a major operation, Operation Marion.

MR NEL: As the drill sergeant, nothing else. Nobody seems to want to accept this. He was the drill sergeant. He drilled them up in the Caprivi and it was his job to drill them at all times.

ADV SANDI: He had a close relationship with Mr Opperman, who was high up in the army, they went around together most of the time. I read somewhere in these documents that at some stage at the trial Mr Opperman testified that he was with the applicant almost 90% of the time he went around meeting people in KwaZulu Natal.

MR NEL: They obviously worked together so I assume they would move together. The exact relationship I wouldn't know. I recall my client having said that sometimes they got along, but they were still in a - remember above a sergeant you get a staff-sergeant, above a staff-sergeant you get a one stripe blue, then a two stripe blue, then only a captain, I mean two starlets, so the ranks were far removed, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point is, if the intelligence was to the effect that in this instance we need a sniper, then my client's job would have been to rehearse with the sniper. The intelligence was foremost upon what he depended upon. He did not make any further decisions. He decided, okay we've got ten people here, I've been told to drill them, I'll drill them. Not for me to decide what happens on the other side and that is the submission I'm trying to make. That was his role and nothing more.

JUDGE POTGIETER; Was this proportionate or disproportionate what happened here in this incident?

MR NEL: In hindsight Sir obviously it was not proportionate, but it could not come to my client's knowledge, I mean he had no control over that aspect. It was, as I say, the intelligence determined 10 people do the house-clearing in this instance. He executes his orders. Okay fine chaps, let's go through the drill. If it was a sniper, a single person, he would have done the same. If it was a two-man squad, he would have done the same. But I want to submit as far as his role is concerned, he cannot be held liable for the proportionality or not of the act, unless he went clearly outside his instructions and I wish to submit that is not the case in this instance.

JUDGE POTGIETER: No matter how unreasonable his instructions were, is it your submission that as an absolute position a person in the position of your client, provided he moves within the ambit of his orders is untouchable as far as proportionality is concerned?

MR NEL: I think you touched on it earlier Sir, the question of subjectivity. I think unfortunately subjectivity must come into it at this stage because only if he had the means to know that the intended action may be out of proportion, then one would expect him to do something about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, whether we like it or not, proportionality is part of the Act and it is a matter to be considered, not so? It's specifically mentioned in the Act. By the nature of that concept of proportionality as I understand the English language, in order to establish whether something is proportional to another, you must measure it against something else. If you were to measure it on a subjective basis, then everybody would be in a position to say: "What I did was proportional". Isn't the truth of the matter that we must measure that part of the act on an objective basis? I'm suggesting there's no other way to measure it.

JUDGE POTGIETER: And if your client, if an applicant in the position of your client is prepared to participate in an incident that turns out like this, then he is judged in terms of the Act. His application is judged individually, it's judged on what he places before us and we have to be satisfied that what happened is proportional or not.

ADV SANDI: In fact if you recall his evidence, I asked him specifically if he had any suspicion that there might be women and children in the house and his answer was in the affirmative and I asked him what did he do about his suspicion, he did nothing.

MR NEL: Once again I come back to what his instructions were. Intelligence side said ten men, house-clearing squad, you go out you give them a dress rehearsal. That was it, that was his role. As far as the proportionality is concerned, I would liken this as to an inquiry as to whether a person has acted in self-defence. I would submit that it would be of a similar, the inquiry would be of a similar nature. It would be an objective determination of what the person subjectively thought at the time and whether he acted - it's an objective determination of the subjective attitude of a person at the time when he defended himself. I would say that the question surrounding proportionality would have to be subjected to a similar approach.

ADV SANDI: Surely that would exclude the idiosyncrasy of hypersensitive individuals? One has got to lay a foundation for a subjective belief, you don't simply make a statement and say: "This was my subjective belief", you've got to justify it with facts.

JUDGE POTGIETER: You can't say that I subjectively believe that it's proportional, therefore it is proportional, therefore I complied with the Act. That can't be.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not for him to make that decision, it's for us to make that decision and we unfortunately can't get into his brain.

MR NEL: Sorry Sir, that is why I say that the command structure must never be forgotten here, the intelligence part of it, the dependence of a person in an army set-up, the dependence on the intelligence cannot be disregarded. If he is confronted with a certain set of facts, like in this instance whereby he's told to drill ten people, it does not go beyond that. Within the army command structure it's not his place, it's a given, the cake has been baked, he must now eat. That's why I say, if the intelligence amounted to a sniper having to be used, then he would have given different training.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Mr Nel, that's exactly the point that the Chair made to Ms Thabethe. The cake was baked, he wasn't forced to eat, but if he decided to eat and there was poison in the cake, that's it. He takes it as he finds it.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Nel, I don't know if we're meeting each other's minds here. He's applying for amnesty in respect of offences committed by others whom he trained and prepared, call it what you want to, that's how he is linked up to these offences. Now if he's relying on that, then he is stuck with what they did. He was party to the command structure to send out this gang, to do what they were told to do. The fact that he wasn't there, or that he only prepared them, if he wants to say that: "I only prepared them", then I'm asking the question: "Why is he applying for amnesty in respect of 14 murders:, if that's his attitude? Isn't his application such that imputes liability and if he's connected to those murders, then the Act must be applied.

MR NEL: Thank you Sir. As I said earlier, it would in fact have been immaterial as to whether Mr Cloete was at the scene on that particular day because he had trained these people in a specific way in accordance with standard operating procedures. Nobody has denied that. If these people at some later stage had turned around and confronted and said that they did the house-clearing on that particular basis because that is the way they had been trained, he would have been in exactly the same spot as he is today, because his role on the particular day did not digress that much from simple training in Caprivi. He trained the people. He was not part of the command structure. I wish, with respect, to differ. Opperman makes it very clear that whole operation was his own, it was never Mr Cloete's operation. Opperman gave the orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Then Mr Nel, surely he wasn't just, he didn't go on the operation for a joy ride, he coached his people, to use a term, he provided the arms and whatever was used there, he went to Durban to wait for the return, collected the arms that they had used and had them, delivered them for ...(indistinct) but that's not a joy ride, especially in the middle of the night. He was an integral part of this whole operation. He coached them, he gave them a dry drill and I assume because nobody has said otherwise, that a dry drill assisted those operatives to succeed in what they did. Isn't that so? So it was part of preparing them, otherwise they probably would not have been able to do what they did.

MR NEL: Sorry Sir, you are correct in the sense that he provided, he transported the weapons from Fern Tree to Ulundi, so he played a role, that's why he has to apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: He waited with Opperman for them to return and collected these arms from them and then disposed of them afterwards, so it's not a matter that he performs some small insignificant part in this whole operation by merely coaching them, he went much further.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Why did he wait if he was just a drill sergeant?

MR NEL: I'm still - I mean his role, as I was trying to say, his role was not only, I was trying to what's the word, concentrate on the most important part of his role, which was the drill. He did provide the rifles, he did dispose of it afterwards by handing it over to Victor at Natal Command, but what I'm trying to say is the most important part, I may have missed the other parts, but I've concentrated on the drilling of the trainees as being his most important contribution to this affair. The role that he played is clear, I have no problem with that, I think it's pretty clear the role that he played. All that I can end off with as far as your inquiry's concerned as far as the proportionality is concerned, I repeat that insofar as he did not determine the victim, he did not do the intelligence, he did not act outside of his orders, I would submit that proportionality would then have to be considered on a - objectively looking at it, a determination of subjectively what was his knowledge about what would take place eventually, considering the fact that he was never involved in the intelligence side of this. Nobody has ever tried to say that he was involved in the intelligence side of it, that was Opperman's job, he was the intelligence officer. I will refer you to the bundles. Opperman describes in glowing terms what a wonderful intelligence officer he was.

ADV SANDI: I thought you were going to add that during the time he was giving training to these people, he didn't teach them to be careful not to kill innocent people when going for what they see as legitimate targets. I thought you were going to mention that.

MR NEL: I'm very grateful to you for raising this, but this is exactly the point. That was not his training. That was not standard operating procedure. House-clearing amounted to cleaning out and those were his instructions. Clean out, 10 people here trained, they must clean out.

CHAIRPERSON: Children also?

MR NEL: Sorry Mr Chairman, he was not involved in intelligence.

CHAIRPERSON: ... cleaning out, irrespective and I ask, did that include children?

MR NEL: Standard operating procedures included children.

JUDGE POTGIETER: How could it? How could it, on his own evidence, the purpose, the objective of so-called house clearing is to eliminate any possibility of incrimination, or comeback at the operatives. That's all that they were doing, they were just wiping clear their trail. Why must you ...(indistinct) under those circumstances. Yes, indeed, in all likelihood between 1 and 2 in the morning, asleep in bed.

MR NEL: It makes no sense Mr Chairman, but we did not write the handbook.

JUDGE POTGIETER: No, no, but that's exactly our debate, that's not what your client said. Your client said the purpose was to eliminate any possible incrimination, so the question is and that's the question that the Chair asked you, does it include children? You say yes, it does, in terms of the textbook, but that's not what your client testified. According to his testimony, a four year old child, more than likely asleep in bed at 1 o'clock in the morning would by no stretch of the imagination fall within the realm of persons who could incriminate the perpetrators, how could it?

MR NEL: I can only answer that in the sense that when you do house-clearing, under the circumstances prevailing at the time, one can surely - often it's dark, often you don't know what you are actually shooting at, you're dependent on your intelligence, your order to go into a house and clear it, you're probably not in a position to discriminate and as far as he says that children should not be shot, that's an obviously good example of what you would do under circumstances when you can pick and choose your victims. I would assume, I was not part of the army, but I would assume that under the circumstances prevailing, they consider it an easier approach to wipe out everybody.

JUDGE POTGIETER: No, that's the operative circumstances. We were talking and your submission was this was standard procedure and we were saying to you, but that is not according to the testimony of your client, that standard procedure would not include a four year old child and that's the debate that we're having. Forget about what they did eventually, we are just concerned about what this so-called textbook says on which testimony he couldn't have included a four year old and that's all, that's the only point that I'm raising with you.

MR NEL: Sorry Sir, I didn't understand him to say that. Also with reference to the evidence as it appears in the bundles, it's abundantly clear that when these people meant house-clearing, they meant anybody.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Yes, thank you. Have you got any other submissions?

MR NEL: Just in a brief response to my learned friend's argument. The documentation that she referred to, the duty sheet as it was called, of Mr Opperman, I would invite you to read the relevant bundle, bundle 2, pages 314 and 384 and it's clear that this was a duty sheet, if I interpret the evidence correctly, drawn up by Opperman afterwards, not at the time of this incident, it was not in existence at the time, it was drawn up subsequent to the incident and according to the evidence as it appears from the bundle, clearly done to enhance his own position, so insofar as my learned friend uses the existence of this document and the transgression of the terms thereof to argue that my client did not act within the scope of his orders, I would simply bring to your attention that document was not even in existence at the time. My learned friend intimated that my client had scant regard specifically to black lives. I would just object to that, but refer to the evidence of my client himself that under the circumstances if the then Prime Minister was present in the house, he would have been taken out as well, no matter what his colour was.

JUDGE POTGIETER: How serious was that?

MR NEL: I think very serious, Sir, under the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, do you expect us to believe or accept that if P W was in that house, they would have shot him?

MR NEL: Yes, Sir, because that is what he says they were trained to do.

CHAIRPERSON They were not robots Mr Nel. I think if Mr P W just showed them the finger they would have all run out there.

ADV SANDI: Maybe the question, the last point the Chair raises, is the question whether a soldier - does a soldier have a duty to carry out a palpably reprehensible order? isn't there a limit to the role?

MR NEL: Sorry, Sir, is this with reference to my client, or a soldier in general? Does the question relate to this incident, or to a soldier in general?

ADV SANDI: A soldier in general. Isn't there a limit to the role? He surely can't be exonerated for anything he does under the cloak of being a soldier?

MR NEL: Certainly not, I agree with you, the common law is very clear on that, but coming back to my client's specific circumstances, I don't think it's applicable.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all, Mr Nel?

MR NEL: That's all, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to reserve the decision on this matter and we'll deliver it in due course. Before we adjourn for lunch, Mr Ntuli, no, Mr ...

MS MOODLEY: Mr Thusini.

CHAIRPERSON: With the other victims that have attended this hearing, I wish to say something on behalf of the Commission, but in particular to you. I don't think there's anybody that can appreciate the loss that you and your colleagues have endured and suffered. To lose 5 children in one go at the hands of thugs, must be even more hurtful and really I can't think of how you were able to withstand that kind of loss, but your resolve in continuing your life thereafter is to be admired. It is to be hoped that you, your wife and your surviving child, together with the others who have similarly lost people, dear ones, are able to go from strength to strength and find comfort in whichever way you can when you think of your lost ones. There's very little people can do, outside your family and one can only be thankful that you are able to hold your head up high still with pride and to comfort your wife, as you did that very day. As I said, we hope that from now on, that you've got everything off your chest, you are able to proceed with life and everything of the best with your studies. Thank you.

We'll adjourn till half past two.

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of the record, I'm Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues and thereafter the various representatives to announce themselves for the purpose of that record.

JUDGE POTGIETER: My name is Denzil Potgieter.

ADV SANDI: I am Ntsikilelo Sandi.

MR FROST: I am Alan Frost, for the applicant.

MR NYOKA: I'm Pumelo Nyoka for the victims. I represent the victims.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chair. The name is Francois van der Merwe. I'm appearing on behalf of three implicated parties being Roelofse, Niewoudt and Dungatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one, Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm about to find out from the applicant which one I should be appearing for, Mr Chairman, thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. I'm Thabile Thabethe, the Evidence Leader for the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Frost, before we proceed, I just want to find out certain things from your client. Mr Dlongwane, I understand that you have certain problems with the rest of the week.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I want to tell you that we've been having trouble setting this matter down for a long time and most of those problems have been caused by your unavailability and your non-co-operation. Even yesterday, you refused to come down to Port Elizabeth because you didn't have money to come from Durban. If we continue with this case, this hearing, then you must be here till the end. Now I'm not going to postpone this matter. Either you want to have this hearing and make this application, or you don't want to. Your other commitments, I'm not too sure what it is, but this Commission needs to wind up its business. Do you understand?

MR DLONGWANE: It's clear.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will continue now, if you want to carry on with your application, we will start now and we'll sit till the end. Do you understand that?

MR DLONGWANE: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Frost, are you going to call him to testify?

MR FROST: I am, Mr Chairman.

PATRICK MODISE DLONGWANE: (sworn states)

MR FROST: Mr Chair, this is an application for amnesty in respect of two separate matters, the first and second matter appear on page 1 of the first bundle. The applicant applies for amnesty in respect of instructions that he received from Gideon Niewoudt and Col Roelofse to petrol bomb houses that belonged to the UDF members in Port Elizabeth during the 1980's and the second aspect for which the applicant seeks amnesty is that he gave false evidence incriminating a Mr Zola Mtatsi and others, who were later convicted as a result thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of the petrol bombing, how many houses and who did those houses belong to? Who were the occupants of those houses?

MR FROST: Mr Chair you will see in the second bundle of documents on page 1 thereof, just for ease of reference, the names, under the heading "Missions fulfilled" he petrol bombed the houses of the persons mentioned in A, C, D, E, F and G.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 1 of Bundle 2?

MR FROST: Of Bundle 2. Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR FROST: A, C, D, E, F and G.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR FROST: Those are the houses and the person's houses that the applicant inter alia petrol bombed during that period for which he seeks amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not making application for petrol bombing the house which Mr Themba Duse occupied ... (indistinct), that is B and E?

MR FROST: Mr Chair, he is applying for E.

CHAIRPERSON: So all but B?

MR FROST: All but B.

CHAIRPERSON: He's making application for providing false evidence against Mr Zola Mtatsi and who else?

MR FROST: Mr Chair he's not specifically aware of all the names. It's in particular Mr Zola Mtatsi.

CHAIRPERSON: He's asking for amnesty in respect of perjury committed in the criminal matter of Mr Zola Mtatsi, wherein Mr Mtatsi was convicted and sentenced to a term of imprisonment.

MR FROST: Indeed, Mr Chair, that is indeed his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Petrol bombing of all those people whom you referred to, what crimes would he have committed there?

MR FROST: Well Mr Chair, specifically arson, malicious damage to property, those are the two main crimes he would have committed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody get injured or killed?

MR FROST: Not as far as he is aware Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't attempted murder also be involved?

MR FROST: I would concede that it would be involved. The foreseeability would have been there, Mr Chair. That is all, Mr Chair.

EXAMINATION BY MR FROST: Now Mr Dlongwane, I first of all want to refer you to the second bundle and the case study thereof that is set out on pages 1, 2 and 3. Can you tell this Committee from where this information originates?

MR DLONGWANE: Which information are you talking about?

MR FROST: The information in the second bundle of the case study, study 5. Apparently the information was taken from confession that you would have made some years ago to the members of the African National Congress.

MR DLONGWANE: Actually, I left the country in 1986 for exile and when I arrived in exile, I joined the African National Congress and I confessed about all what I did inside the country and I was made to write a statement, of which I did and I was locked up in Zambia and from Zambia then I was transferred to Angola and then that is when I was asked to go to Zambia again where I met Jackie Mabusa, the late, who was then a body guard of the late, actually the President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, where he asked me to confess in front of a video camera and my confession was dubbed and I was told after that there will be an exchange of political prisoners, so that was a promise that I will be released and on the other hand the South African Government has to release one of the MK cadres, one of their neighbour who is in prison, so that's all.

MR FROST: So the confession that you made at that stage, was that the truth?

MR DLONGWANE: The confession I made first time when I arrived in the ANC camps was the truth, but because of the beatings and it happened that I even met people who were from Port Elizabeth, then I was implicated and I had to admit.

MR FROST: And was that the truth?

MR DLONGWANE: I would say openly, there was the truth and there were lies.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, did you petrol bomb the house of Mr Sipho ...(indistinct)?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I remember going to Sipho ...(indistinct) house.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that happen?

MR DLONGWANE: That was during 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you petrol bomb the home of Lulu Johnson?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that happen?

MR DLONGWANE: It was also during 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you petrol bomb the house of Mr and Mrs Gcina?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that happen?

MR DLONGWANE: It was also during 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you petrol bomb the home where Mr Nkuseli Jack was staying?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you petrol attack the house of Mr Buyani Vina?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How? With a petrol bomb?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, because I was in a kombi and then Sgt Mbatla Tongatha then threw the petrol bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you do it?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I was in the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: I - did you or did you not throw a petrol bomb at the home of Mr Vina?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I didn't throw a petrol bomb. I was in the kombi and Tongatha threw the petrol bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you agree with that, that he threw it, or did he do it on his own?

MR DLONGWANE: I agreed because we were about 5 in the kombi on that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you want to agree with him? Did you want to attack Mr Buyani Vina and his house?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually at that time, it was an opportunity for Tongatha to fulfil the mission.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about you, I'm not talking about Tongatha.

MR DLONGWANE: Myself at that time, it was not my time to throw the petrol bomb, it was Tongatha's time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I know that, but did you want him to throw it?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you agreed with him that he should throw it?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you attack with a petrol bomb, the house of Mr Mono Phatela?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR DLONGWANE: It was also the period of 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Mbatla Tongatha, with your assistance and approval, throw the petrol bomb at the home of Mr Buyani Vina?

MR DLONGWANE: All these events took place during the time of 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now did you falsely testify against Mr Mtatsi?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that happen?

MR DLONGWANE: If I remember well, it was in the period of 1983.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Frost.

MR FROST: Thank you Chair. Now could you tell us who recruited you first of all, or how did it come about that you were recruited to petrol bomb the houses of these persons?

MR DLONGWANE: The first time when I started petrol bombing houses, it's when this decision came up from Capt Roelofse and Lieut Niewoudt, when we had a meeting at Sanlam building together with Mbatla Tongatha and including Nene, Stanford Nene.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, were you working for the Security Police?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I was working with them.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that start?

MR DLONGWANE: It started 1980.

CHAIRPERSON: 1980. Who was your handler?

MR DLONGWANE: At that time it was Sgt Mosane and Capt Brown Nkomane and the other Captain called ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: So you were part of this group or machinery of the Security Police?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Frost.

MR FROST: Now before you were recruited by Capt Roelofse and Niewoudt, were you paid by the Security Police any sum of monies for your duties?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes. Actually I used to get a monthly salary.

MR FROST: Did you get anything for the information you would provide?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, even if I don't bring information, but month end I have to get a salary.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you did provide information, did you get extra?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR FROST: Now in the beginning, what were your duties when you were initially recruited?

MR DLONGWANE: The first time when I was recruited, that was 1980 and my duties were to go to the meetings and attend those meetings and from there then write a report and submit it at Sanlam Building.

CHAIRPERSON: Which meetings were you to attend??

MR DLONGWANE: The meetings of ...(indistinct) Black Civic Organisation and COSAS and ...(indistinct)

MR BIZOS: Now where did you - did you remain in Port Elizabeth throughout?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I've been in Port Elizabeth until 1983. I left South Africa, I went to Lesotho and also on a mission, then I came back, then I left Port Elizabeth in 1985.

MR FROST: Now why did you go to Lesotho?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually I was instructed to go to Lesotho, that was after the raid of 1982, to go and spy on the people who were still living in Lesotho, or I would say openly the survivors.

MR FROST: Who gave you that instruction?

MR DLONGWANE: I was given the instruction by Lieut Smuts and W/O Momberg.

MR FROST: Were you paid?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I was paid when I came back to South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: That is over and above your monthly salary?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct, as I understand your evidence, you were on a basic salary and every time you did give information about those people and organisations you were supposed to spy on, you got extra payment for that information?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Frost.

MR FROST: Now when you returned back top South Africa from Lesotho, did anyone give you any further instructions?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I continued working and at that time I worked with Nieuwoudt, and I worked with Roelofse and I also continued working with Tongatha, getting instructions from them.

MR FROST: While you were getting ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When did you return from Lesotho?

MR DLONGWANE: If I remember well, I returned the same year, but I can't remember the month exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: So this must have been before you committed perjury in the criminal case of Mr Mtatsi?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually the bus boycott took place after I came back from Lesotho.

MR FROST: Now when Nieuwoudt and Capt Roelofse gave you instructions, were you still paid a salary?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR FROST: Did the amount remain the same?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it remained the same and sometimes they will give me some extra.

CHAIRPERSON: When you gave important information?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR FROST: Now you told us that as far as the petrol bombings were concerned, you were instructed by members of the Security Police to undertake these operations, is that correct?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR FROST: And who specifically gave those instructions?

MR DLONGWANE: I beg your pardon?

MR FROST: Who specifically gave those instructions?

MR DLONGWANE: It was Capt Roelofse and Lieut Nieuwoudt.

MR FROST: And what were the instructions?

MR DLONGWANE: The instructions were to petrol bomb the houses of the influential people within the organisations mentioned, Zola Mtatsi who was then a Chairperson of COSAS and looking also into people like Buyani Vina, who were also active in the forefront and looking into people like Mrs Gcala, who was also very influential when coming to Women's League or whatever in PEBCO, so those were actual instructions that one has to target the influential people.

ADV SANDI: Can you just explain this? So you were given specific names of people to target, or were you just told to target influential people?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, to tell the honest truth, there was a category whereby there were small fish and the big fish.

CHAIRPERSON: Forget the big fish and the small fish in the pond, just tell us, give an answer to the question. Were names given to you or was it left to your discretion?

MR DLONGWANE: No, the names were given to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Now give us those names that were given to you.

MR DLONGWANE: First number one, I said from the onset, it was people who were in the forefront, Zola Mtatsi, Mrs Gcala, Lulu Johnson, Buyani Vina, Sipho Hashe.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, can he go a little bit slower, I need to make a list of these please. If he's just repeating that, then I'm happy.

MR FROST: Yes, who else?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually those were the main people that I was told to ensure that wherever they are then I follow them and then I petrol bomb their houses.

MR FROST: Now where did you obtain the addresses of those people?

MR DLONGWANE: I obtained the addresses from the Security Branch.

MR FROST: When you petrol bombed these particular persons, were you alone on each occasion?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I was not alone.

MR FROST: What was the position? Who was with you?

MR DLONGWANE: It was myself, it was Stanford Nene, it was Tongatha and then there were some other people that I mean today I don't even remember their names.

CHAIRPERSON: So on each of the occasions that you were party to throwing this petrol bomb on the 6 people's houses that you mentioned, you were with one or two of these other people that you speak about, Tongatha and company, is that correct?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it's correct.

MR FROST: Now what was the objective as far as you were concerned, in executing the orders of Nieuwoudt and Col Roelofse?

MR DLONGWANE: The objective was nothing else other than to ensure that we demoralise the masses, as soon as they see their leaders being arrested, being killed and from then, then they would lose their direction and lose hope regarding the continuation of the struggle against ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you honestly believe that was going to be the result, even if you killed the people?

MR DLONGWANE: Because of the way I was recruited and the ideology.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe that?

MR DLONGWANE: And then that made me to believe.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you serious?

MR DLONGWANE: I am serious.

MR FROST: Now when you were recruited by the Security Police, were you not just recruited as an employee on the basis that you received a monthly salary?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, of course, I was actually recruited as an informer and then I was given a code name 446/80 and then that is when now I started to get a fixed salary, which means every month I would get my salary.

CHAIRPERSON: He's testified Mr Frost that he used to get a basic salary and for information and deeds I think that he committed, he would get a bit extra when and if that happened. That's how I understood his evidence.

MR FROST: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's how I understood it. If you want to take that matter up, you can.

MR FROST: No, that is indeed so, thank you Chair. Now when you were initially recruited by the Security Branch, was it explained to you what the political objective was to commit these offences, example for petrol bombing the houses of these prominent people?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I have already explained, but I will also enforce my explanation that the way I was recruited, the police, they even portrayed those who were in the forefront as the communist with no future and they even convinced me that even if I joined them, there is nothing that I will achieve in my life.

MR FROST: And did you believe that?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But as far as you're concerned, what political objective was there in attacking members or high-ranking officials of PEBCO, PACO, COSAS, spying on the African National Congress? What was your political objective? Did you have a problem with those organisation?

MR DLONGWANE: Personally, since I was recruited, the objective at that time was nothing else, other than to see those organisations going down, to see the masses losing hope, so that was an objective.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR DLONGWANE: Those were the instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: No, why did you want to do it, never mind the instructions.

MR DLONGWANE: It's because I was given an order to do that and I had to accept the order.

CHAIRPERSON: Haai man, I'm asking what went through your head.

MR DLONGWANE: I would say throughout my involvement, in my mind there was nothing else other than to ensure that I do what I'm being told.

MR FROST: But what objective did you want to see achieved at the end of the day through the work that you'd done, that you did together with the Security Police?

MR DLONGWANE: Through my activities my objectives I would say, I wanted to ensure that the struggle doesn't continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR DLONGWANE: It's because the way I was influenced and because of the ideology which was inserted into my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, this struggle was essentially, if not totally, directed at Apartheid, not so? Correct?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, of course, all the political organisations, they were directing their struggle against the Apartheid regime.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. now did you not agree with that? Did you not want to see Apartheid abolished?

MR DLONGWANE: When I grew up I wanted to see Apartheid being demolished, but then because I was recruited and influenced and then I had to betray my people.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh. And so too, betray all the black people.

MR DLONGWANE: That is actually what happened in my life.

MR FROST: Were you made to believe that Apartheid was in fact the better route to follow in life, rather than the route of struggling against it?

MR DLONGWANE: The way I was taught, that is how I believed, that the Apartheid was a good system.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's this good teacher?

MR DLONGWANE: These good teachers were Nkomane and Sgt Mosane, the late.

MR FROST: Now when did this occur that you, for the first time, or this propaganda was put to you?

MR DLONGWANE: That was 1980.

MR FROST: Prior to 1980, you were actually actively involved in the struggle, is that right?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR FROST: And because of this propaganda you, so to speak, climbed onto the other side of the fence?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR FROST: And you say your principles were betrayed by this propaganda?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Can you just tell us what exactly did these people say to you that made you convinced that the struggle against apartheid should not succeed?

MR DLONGWANE: The first time when I was arrested, 1980, because of the beatings and the pressure, then that is when the police started to recruit me and they told me that if the Judge can find me guilty, then I will be hanged or sent into Robben Island. In such an extent, they even visited my mother while I was in detention, where they repeatedly asked her to come and talk to me and because of my mother's tears while I was behind the bars and then I had to succumb, then that is when Sgt Mosane and Nkomane, because that time I was in the isolation cell, they decided to take me out from the isolation cell and mix me with the other criminals, then they would come and tell me about the struggle in South Africa which has no future and their organisations that are existing in Port Elizabeth, they are in line with communism and communism was portrayed to me as something like a devil, as a something which really brings down the economy of our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, how long were you in custody that time when they ...(intervention)

MR DLONGWANE: Detention for 6 months.

CHAIRPERSON: transformed you?

MR DLONGWANE: It was 6 months.

CHAIRPERSON: 6 months, hey? And how long were you in this struggle before then, before 1980?

MR DLONGWANE: 1976.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were in the organisations for four years.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it took 6 months for them to change that?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And after that?

MR DLONGWANE: Then after that, I went out, then I continued working with the police, since I was recruited, until then I left Port Elizabeth, I went to Queenstown and when I came back from Queenstown, I came back with a stolen firearm, 7.65, then unfortunately when I loaded this firearm, it just happened to discharge and I shot mistakenly.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't tell me you shot yourself in the foot?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I shot a lady by the name of Nopumelo, who was a girlfriend of my friend. Then I ended up in prison serving 12 months in ...(indistinct) prison in P.E.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how did it come that you gave evidence against Mr Mtatsi?

MR DLONGWANE: At that time there was a planned marathon bus boycott and I was also involved in the meeting which took place kwaZakhele. Then I reported everything to Gideon Nieuwoudt and Roelofse and when we planned to meet, I informed Gideon Nieuwoudt, including Roelofse, where are we going to meet and even a time, so we had a meeting, it was on a Sunday and the busses were stoned and then after that we planned that we will be meeting again on a Monday evening. Then during the day on Monday, I went to Sanlam building where Tongatha and Vina, including Nieuwoudt and Roelofse said to me they will be hanging around. Then it did happen that evening the police were there and we were arrested and when we were arrested, that is when Roelofse and Tongatha including Nieuwoudt told me to implicate people like Zola Mtatsi, Kolo Makapela, people who were not there, Zoli Sijasi, there were a lot of them. So then I was asked to be a State Witness and at that time we were four.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just stop there. So you eventually testified against them?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You told lies about them?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I told lies.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, you said you were arrested and you were forced to - did I hear you correctly, you were forced to testify against them?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I was not forced, it was my job.

CHAIRPERSON: It was your job. So it was suggested to you that you testify against them falsely?

MR DLONGWANE: Even though they were not involved, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you considered that as your job?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you get out of the arrest now? You were arrested, isn't it?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the charges withdrawn, or what?

MR DLONGWANE: No, actually I was put behind the bars, not charged, I was not charged.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. So after you testified you were released from behind the bars?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I was released.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were still earning your salary?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And after you testified, you got a bit more bonus for testifying?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now by that time, did you start this petrol bombing or was that to come after the testimony that you gave?

MR DLONGWANE: The petrol bombings came after the testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us go on to the petrol bombing now, who was first? Whose house was first?

MR DLONGWANE: I would be lying if I can tell you whose house was first and at that time, to tell you the honest truth ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I hope you are telling us the honest truth. Tell me.

MR DLONGWANE: The aim of the petrol bombing, it was not only also to deal with the influential people, but also to cause a confusion because at that time there was a fight between AZAPO and UDF.

CHAIRPERSON: Who? By the way, who caused that? Who started that dispute?

MR DLONGWANE: I do not know, but then the police ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But you were party to fuelling it?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, of course.

CHAIRPERSON: You took advantage of it?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's start with Sipho ...(indistinct). You went with others to petrol bomb his house after you were told to do so, am I correct.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were following your orders, it was your job?

MR DLONGWANE: I was following the orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Who told you to do that one?

MR DLONGWANE: It was Niewoudt, Roelofse and Tongatha and Stanford Mene.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Was it only that house that you bombed that day, or did you do more bombings that same day as you did Sipho Hashe?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it as only that house and from there, then they dropped me in Veeplaas and then they went their own way.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And then when next did you perform a similar activity in bombing a person's house?

MR DLONGWANE: I will be not able to recall the days and the times.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Is it the next day, or couple of days, or whatever?

MR DLONGWANE: It was a couple of days.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Then Lulu Johnson's house, who was with you when that occurred?

MR DLONGWANE: It was the same group.

CHAIRPERSON: Same group?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr and Mrs Gcina's house?

MR DLONGWANE: It was myself, Tongatha and Stanford Mene.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Jack's house? Nkuseli Jack?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I don't remember myself.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't remember.

MR DLONGWANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Frost, just maybe I missed ...

MR FROST: Mr Chair, yes, it was a mistake on my part. I checked my notes. I said all but (b), Jack was in relation to another aspect which isn't relevant to this application. I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not applying for an incident involving Mr Jack's house?

MR FROST: No, he's not, I apologise Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buyani Vina's house?

MR DLONGWANE: It was myself, Tongatha and Stanford.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mono Phatela's house?

MR DLONGWANE: It was myself, Tongatha and Stanford.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, earlier in your evidence you said it's one of those houses that you personally did not throw this petrol bomb, but you associated yourself with Tongatha doing it, which house was that?

MR DLONGWANE: That was Buyani Vina's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. The rest of the people that you mentioned, did you throw the petrol bomb yourself?

MR DLONGWANE: At Mrs Gcina's house, I never threw the petrol bomb, I was in the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Did you agree with the person who threw that petrol bomb?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That was part of the whole plan?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you associated yourself with that as well?

MR DLONGWANE: Because I was in the kombi, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. So you acted as part of a group again?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did all these things happen in one month, or how did it - was it over two months, or three months? I know you can't remember dates, but I'm just trying to establish how close to each other all these petrol bombings occurred.

MR DLONGWANE: Hence I said I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway. Now you're still, I take it, earning your basic salary?

MR DLONGWANE: When, presently?

CHAIRPERSON: No, then.

MR DLONGWANE: At that time, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And after these petrol bombings you received an extra bit of bonus for having been party to this?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't receive?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, because at that time I could not attend meetings, I was expelled.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you get paid for throwing petrol bombs?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Extra?

MR DLONGWANE: Not extra.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were - oh, I see. So you got paid for throwing petrol bombs?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was your only activity at that time?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, you were friends with these people by then, very close friends?

MR DLONGWANE: I am still even now.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Did you ever, after you became friendly with them, try to leave that kind of work?

MR DLONGWANE: You say in which period?

CHAIRPERSON: Anytime after 1980. Was there a time you tried to disassociate yourself with the Security Police?

MR DLONGWANE: That was 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened?

MR DLONGWANE: That time I was in Johannesburg and I was involved with the political organisations.

CHAIRPERSON: You infiltrated?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR DLONGWANE: But by listening in to Radio Freedom broadcasted from Tanzania, I had to heed the call of the former president of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, when he said: "Let the enemies, all those who work for the enemies, turn the guns into their bosses" and I had to heed the call from that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Weren't you confused that time?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were your bosses then and who were you enemies?

MR DLONGWANE: Because of his speech, I had to make a re-introspection and I had to heed the call, that is how I left South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now before then, from 1980 to the end of 1985, you were quite comfortable with the situation, working with the Security Branch and getting paid for what you did?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you never attempt before then to leave them?

MR DLONGWANE: Regarding that question, I have no answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't it a comfortable money making scheme?

MR DLONGWANE: I've got no answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you answer it, or are you refusing to answer it?

MR DLONGWANE: I am not refusing, but I've got no answer for that.

CHAIRPERSON: So that was your full-time job? Spying and testifying and petrol bombing?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew you will never be prosecuted for that, you had been given guarantees?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, even though when I shot a person, then I was convicted while the Security Branch was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Frost, any more questions?

MR FROST: When you testified against Mr Mtatsi, you said it was your job to do so. Did you do so with any political motive?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I had already explained that the motive was to defend the Pretoria regime and to ensure that I witness the political organisations.

MR FROST: So your testifying against Mr Mtatsi was with the same political objective as that when you petrol bombed the houses of certain prominent members.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR FROST: Now you also that before you went over to Botswana, that you were in the Transvaal. For whom were you working there?

MR DLONGWANE: I was in the Transvaal in Germiston and I worked with the Security Police also there.

MR FROST: At that stage were you still comfortable with the political objectives of the Security Police and the Apartheid regime?

MR DLONGWANE: I was not so much committed because at that time I even had a job at Checkers stores as a merchandiser and also during the weekends, then I would attend meetings.

MR FROST: Now what brought about the change of heart in the political objectives which you had been fighting for until that stage, together with the Security Police against the fight for freedom?

MR DLONGWANE: I have already mentioned that I was motivated by the speech of the late Oliver Tambo over the Radio Freedom in Tanzania.

MR FROST: Was there anything else that changed your mind and made you decide that the political objective in which you believed since 1980 until 1986, was no longer in accordance with what you felt at that stage?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, the rate of the struggle, or the way people were taking up the struggle in South Africa, I had to sit down and evaluate myself and I realised I had no future and the contributory factor was, it was the first time in my life, to hear the voice of President Oliver Tambo, who motivated me to leave the country.

ADV SANDI: Just explain something to me. Would one be correct to say that during the time you were working for the Security Police, that is before you got this speech by Mr Oliver Tambo, you were not really committed to the Security Police, you were just doing this for money, would I be correct to say that?

MR DLONGWANE: No, when I was in Germiston, that is when I got a job and I lost an interest.

ADV SANDI: Yes, you got a job and you had no reason now to continue working for the Security Police because you were now able to support yourself with the income you were earning from the job.

MR DLONGWANE: I had already mentioned that even though I was employed, but Saturdays and Sundays I would go and attend meetings of the political organisations in Germiston, Katlehong and Soweto etc., etc.

ADV SANDI: You were not as committed as you had been before because you now had an income to make a living from?

MR DLONGWANE: No, it's not like that.

ADV SANDI: What then is the position?

MR DLONGWANE: It's because at that time I had a job and also my girlfriend had a baby and the money that I received from the Security Branch was not enough to take care of the mother of my children and including my baby.

ADV SANDI: If the money you were earning from your job at this place you say you were working at, if that money was enough for you to do whatever you wanted to do for yourself, to maintain yourself, would you have continued working for the police?

MR DLONGWANE: To tell you an honest truth, it was so difficult for one to just dump the police at that time and I still continue to say, President Tambo's speech motivated me and I even quit the country without even informing the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please answer the question.

MR DLONGWANE: I still repeat, at that time, because actually I had no interest and it was so difficult for me to separate myself because I feared that they might kill me, but the statement of President Oliver Tambo motivated me and I had to leave the country without even informing them.

ADV SANDI: Because you were not really committed to - would that be because you were not really committed to what you were doing there for them?

MR DLONGWANE: I regarded myself at that time when I worked with them, as a person who is being employed by them.

ADV SANDI: You just wanted to have an income basically.

MR DLONGWANE: There was the political objective and at the very same time, there was the survival of the fittest.

ADV SANDI: Which of the two came first?

MR DLONGWANE: It was the political objective.

ADV SANDI: Not the money?

MR DLONGWANE: Not the money.

ADV SANDI: If the police had asked you to do this work for them without paying you, would you have continued working for the police?

MR DLONGWANE: No I was going to ask them at least to give me something to survive.

ADV SANDI: And if they refused?

MR DLONGWANE: Then if they refused, then they refused, then which means I have to find another way.

CHAIRPERSON: So then you go find another job.

MR DLONGWANE: Actually if I was not indoctrinated enough, the way they have indoctrinated me.

ADV SANDI: I understood you to - you also say, if they had refused to pay you for the work you were doing, you would have cut ties with them?

MR DLONGWANE: If then I was not indoctrinated the way they indoctrinated me, then I was going to cut ties with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Leave the indoctrination, if they didn't pay you a salary and bonuses, would you have left them?

MR DLONGWANE: Sir, the indoctrination did play a role.

CHAIRPERSON: Never mind the indoctrination. We heard that now. If they didn't pay you or were not going to pay you, would you not go look for another job to help your children and the mother of your children live?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually I committed myself and I betrayed my principles.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that. I'm asking you a simple question. Had the Security Police not paid you or indicated that they were not going to pay you for your services, would you not have gone to find another job in order to help your children survive, together with the mother of those children, as you put it just now?

MR DLONGWANE: It was going to be difficult for me, because I feared only one thing, that if I divorce myself and then they might kill me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you consider leaving them?

MR DLONGWANE: I did, since I left South African 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: No, before then. If they were not going to give you money and pay you for services, did you consider that you would leave them and go look for another job?

MR DLONGWANE: That never came into my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Frost.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, sorry Mr Frost. Just explain to me exactly, at what stage did you feel that if you left them, they would have killed you? When was this?

MR DLONGWANE: It was the period of 1983.

ADV SANDI: From 1983 up to when? When did you stop having this fear that if you leave them, they will kill you?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually this developed after I testified against Zola Mtatsi and including the other comrades in court.

ADV SANDI: So in 1985 when you went around petrol bombing these people's houses, you were still afraid that if you left them they would kill you?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR FROST: Now at the stage when you were recruited, is it correct that you were approximately recruited by the Security Police, you were approximately 17 years of age?

MR DLONGWANE: When they recruited me, I was 16 years.

MR FROST: And when you finally left them, how old were you?

MR DLONGWANE: I left them 1986.

MR FROST: Approximately 22, 23?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR FROST: Now can you tell us very briefly why have you applied to this Committee for amnesty in respect of the petrol bombings and in respect of the testimony that you, the false testimony that you gave in the trial of Mr Mtatsi?

MR DLONGWANE: I felt that the time has come where one has to tell the truth and reconcile and to respond into the call which was made by the former State President, Dr Nelson Mandela, regarding the truth and the reconciliation. I felt that the truth will set me free. Since then, in my life, I had no areas where I can be able to visit my friends and the death of my mother 1986, when she was also bombed, bombed and died, it has been haunting me and I approached the Deputy State President Jacob Zuma in Durban and I asked him to forgive me and he asked me to appear here.

MR FROST: And are you also asking as such forgiveness from the families which you petrol bombed during those years?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I also ask forgiveness even from the families. I know for a fact that I contributed in the death of my own mother. I owe actually my own family ...

MR FROST: Is there anything else you would like to present to this Committee in evidence, or to the community as a whole?

MR DLONGWANE: I would like to tell the Committee, including the community, that I was used by the Security Police while I was not enough matured. I found myself involved in the struggle during 1976 and 77. Also the peer pressure contributed, but what has happened in the past, I would like the community, including the families and the Amnesty Committee to forgive me. All what I have done, today what I have benefited, I cannot see, but as I'm talking to you, I contracted HIV and AIDS and I am going to die, I know, but before I die, I would like people to know all my activities and the role that I have done to the people. Through those words I ask forgiveness.

MR FROST: That is the evidence, Chairman and Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlongwane, you say you've had a change of heart.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you decided to come out with the truth and admit to all the wrongs you have done.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you make that decision?

MR DLONGWANE: I made that decision 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember you appeared in front of the Human Rights Violations Committee of this Commission?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember you testified there?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember what you said?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, there are things that I still remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the same that you testified today?

MR DLONGWANE: Some are not the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. At the HRV hearing of this Commission, when did you appear there?

MR DLONGWANE: 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, when you decided you're going to come out with the truth now and admit to the community and ask the community for its forgiveness, and yet you go there and you tell lies. Why?

MR DLONGWANE: It's because at that time I was still with the Returned Exiles Committee and also with the opposition party to the African National Congress and through their influence, then I had to go to the Truth Commission and implicate the leaders who never even participated in those interrogations.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I thought you listened to this grand speech on the 8th of January on Radio Freedom in 1986 when you had this change now, this transformation back to the ANC and its structures and yet in 1996 you're still up to your old tricks. What is the position?

MR DLONGWANE: At that time, we had grievances that we wanted the ANC to address regarding the returned exiles, more especially those who were in the Quatro Camp in Kibashe, in Angola.

CHAIRPERSON: And you go there to the HRV hearing and you lie about tortures and the leadership of the ANC.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why? If you're trying to rectify something, why you go lie?

MR DLONGWANE: It's because I - even at that time when I was elected as a Chairperson, there were people that were behind the Committee to ensure that the ANC doesn't get any votes because this was formed 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the Chairman of the exiles Committee?

MR DLONGWANE: Returned Exiles Committee yes, in South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR DLONGWANE: That was 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: It makes sense. Yes, Mr Nyoka.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlongwane, my instructions are not to oppose the application at this stage until we hear what is going to come out of you. We are going to ask questions. Firstly, I noticed that on the application form, I noticed that every time I read, you've got three different surnames, the first one is Dlongwane, the other one is Hlongwane, the other one is Longwane, which exactly is your exact surname?

MR DLONGWANE: Dlongwane.

MR NYOKA: Dlongwane? Because according to the submission by the ANC, your name is Patrick, okay it's correct this one, according to the Motsanyuane Commission, it's Hlongwane and the date of birth, there are three dates of birth here, the 21st of December 1963, according to the current bundle and then according to the ANC submission, it was the 23rd of September 1958, to the Motsanyuane Commission it was the 21st of September 1958. Exactly when were you born?

MR DLONGWANE: 21st December 1963.

MR NYOKA: Why was there a difference of about five years? Was that deliberately misleading, or was it a typing error?

MR DLONGWANE: It was a deliberate misleading.

MR NYOKA: Why?

MR DLONGWANE: It was because at that time we were waging war with the ANC.

MR NYOKA: What had age to do with that? You wanted to appear to be older or what?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually, if then you look at Pat Hlongwane, that is not me, but I am still being called Pat Hlongwane while I am Patrick Dlongwane and that suited me.

MR NYOKA: But you are sure now you are Patrick ...(indistinct) Dlongwane, you are not going to change now?

MR DLONGWANE: No, that's why I have submitted my amnesty application.

MR NYOKA: Okay, no I just wanted to be sure I'm talking to the right person.

ADV SANDI: Mr Nyoka, is it Dlongwane, -na or ne?

MR NYOKA: NA.

ADV SANDI: Na? But when you completed your application form, you wrote Dlongwane, Ne.

MR DLONGWANE: I think my lawyer, he made a mistake.

ADV SANDI: Okay. Thank you.

MR NYOKA: There are two reasons why you joined the other side, money and you say political somersault. Not so? Indoctrination?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it was indoctrination.

MR NYOKA: Why you are not being frank, if you want us to forgive you, why are you not being frank and say money was the sole root of your going the other side? Why are you not being frank? Why did you say: "I can't answer that question". Why don't you say, Mr Dlongwane, money was the sole motivating reason? Why don't you say so?

MR DLONGWANE: I would like to put this very clear. At that stage, to be with the police within them, one had pride of being a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that now?

MR DLONGWANE: The time when I was an informer.

CHAIRPERSON: 1980?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you living?

MR DLONGWANE: Here in Port Elizabeth.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were proud to be with the police? Is that what you say?

MR DLONGWANE: To me it was a pride.

MR NYOKA: Mr Dlongwane, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe Mr Nyoka, you were justified in asking who you were talking to?

MR NYOKA: I'm happy about that. If ...(indistinct) when you joined in 1979, when you joined it whether as a member or a supporter, was said to you: "Mr Dlongwane, we are going to pay you every month", surely you would not be here today, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I was going to work for the organisation.

MR NYOKA: If it was paying you?

MR DLONGWANE: Even if it was not paying me because I was working for it.

MR NYOKA: No, I'm saying to you if PEBCO was paying you, you would not have joined the other side, because what you wanted was money. Before you answer that, to make life easier for you, there was a political organisation that was sharing the beliefs of the Security Police called "Kyamnandi" ...(indistinct) an others, why you did not join them and say: "Gentlemen, I share your beliefs but I don't want to join you. Let me rather join Kyamnandi and be a political supporter against communism, etc". Why did you not join Kyamnandi if you were motivated by political beliefs above money?

MR DLONGWANE: Because at that time, Kyamnandi was not yet formed.

MR NYOKA: There was a political organisation going along with Ciskei at that stage, 1980, Mr Dlongwane, and that political organisation was sympathetic of the homeland situation. Why did you not join it, whichever name it was?

MR DLONGWANE: No, the only time when I started to hear about ...(indistinct) that was 1984 to 85, the time when he stayed, because he was living at Veeplaas at that time.

MR NYOKA: Never mind the identity of the person. Was there no such political organisation that was supported by people with sympathies of Ciskei and Transkei etc, in Port Elizabeth? Yes, or no, in 1980?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I can't remember.

MR NYOKA: So you were not doing your job as an informer. You could have known that easily that there was a group against PEBCO, that was an alternative. Which planet were you informing on?

MR DLONGWANE: Mr Nyoka the Security Branch had their aim, actually their own aims and objectives of targeting some individuals within the organisations and within the society itself.

MR NYOKA: Were you not aware that there was an alternative that the Security Branch wanted people to join other than PEBCO which was not popular? As an informer were you not aware of that?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

MR NYOKA: Are you serious?

MR DLONGWANE: I am serious.

MR NYOKA: I noticed that on page 2 of the bundle that is the first page literally, you are answering the question:

You say that:

That was the capacity that you were applying for within the SAP, is that correct?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, that's where I used to report.

MR NYOKA: If that is the case, correct me if I'm wrong, is it not the duty of an informer just to inform activists to their superiors? It was not his duty to perpetrate petrol bombing, to falsely testify against people and just to be disruptive? Was it not your duty just to be an informer correctly, information that you got? Anything other than that, you were not acting as an informer.

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, I think here Mr Nyoka the dynamic is orders that I would always receive from my superiors.

MR NYOKA: But why did you not say: "Gentlemen, that is outside my role now, I am a registered informer. Just lets stick to the basic of me informing." Why did you not refuse those orders?

MR DLONGWANE: It was difficult for one.

MR NYOKA: Why was it difficult?

MR DLONGWANE: Because I never signed any contract with them and there was no job description.

MR NYOKA: Why did you not require a contract, to sign it and say: "Hey, let's sign a contract here, this is getting out of hand now. I'm getting many jobs", or you didn't care because of getting lots of money?

MR DLONGWANE: No, it's because my capacity was poor in order to ask those question from them.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened, do you think, if you had to refuse to petrol bomb Mrs Gcina's house?

MR DLONGWANE: Then because I was very much aware ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not asking you about what you were aware of, what would have happened?

MR DLONGWANE: They were going to be suspicious.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what?

MR DLONGWANE: Why I am refusing and then beatings will actually occur.

CHAIRPERSON: Why couldn't you tell them, are you not happy to commit crimes: " I'm against this organisation for political reasons. I'll inform on them and you can arrest them and deal with them in terms of the laws, but I'm not happy to participate in criminal activities. I'm a law-abiding citizen."

MR DLONGWANE: At that time I could not see, actually I could not see any reason why should I refuse.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were a willing partner to committing crime?

MR DLONGWANE: I never regarded that as a crime.

CHAIRPERSON: To throw a petrol bomb at a person's house is not a crime?

MR DLONGWANE: Since there was a battle of ideas and the struggle, I did not regard that as a crime myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.

MR NYOKA: Mr Dlongwane, when you were doing these things, did you enjoy yourself, falsely testify against people, petrol bombing them, did you enjoy yourself?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I never enjoyed it.

MR NYOKA: And you were not enjoying yourself?

MR DLONGWANE: That's the reason why I'm here.

MR NYOKA: Okay. I'll just give you one example. Do you remember during the trial of Mr Mtatsi behind me, and Mr Kola Makapela, Mrs Gcina was in the passages of the court, you were wearing a tracksuit and tackies and you remarked joyfully that:

And she had to leave. Do you remember that incident when you were boasting?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I can't remember such incident.

MR NYOKA: But you don't deny that it existed?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually I deny it.

MR NYOKA: So she's lying about that? My instructions are that you were boasting in the passage of the court that:

That's what you said.

MR DLONGWANE: No.

MR NYOKA: That you were being bought a bottle of brandy. Do you remember that?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't.

MR NYOKA: Mr Dlongwane, are you here to tell the truth? You cried and said you were going to tell the truth. Maybe it's the opportunity to tell us the truth. Is that true or not? Tell us the truth now.

MR DLONGWANE: It's not true.

MR NYOKA: So she made that up?

MR DLONGWANE: Definitely.

MR NYOKA: I put it to you that you are still misleading this Committee.

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know.

MR NYOKA: You don't know that you're misleading the Committee?

MR DLONGWANE: No, but I know for a fact that I am here to tell the truth.

ADV SANDI: Sorry. You said a moment ago you had a sense of pride about working for the Security Police. Now why would not have boasted about such a thing that the police have given you a tracksuit?

MR DLONGWANE: I would not make such comments.

ADV SANDI: Were you not proud about yourself working for the police?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes of course there was a pride within myself, but I would not make such comments to people.

MR NYOKA: Maybe if it was still 1986, you would not be ashamed of that, but its because its 2 000, post April 1994. Any comment?

MR DLONGWANE: I've got no comment.

MR NYOKA: It's because the organisation that you fought for was in power after 1994 by a majority vote, now you are swinging with the tide, like a chameleon, change from yellow to yellow when it suits you, green to green when it suits you. Any comment?

MR DLONGWANE: I am a member of the African National Congress.

MR NYOKA: You are? Since when?

MR DLONGWANE: Since 1996.

MR NYOKA: When I first read your document, I was impressed at the very first page when you said the 1976 Soweto riots, uprisings, made you to be an activist, do you remember?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: It touched anyone. Anyone was touched by Soweto riots, 1976?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: But then when you were detained for the first time in February 1980, you forgot about being impressed by Soweto riots, why did you change just after one detention, Mr Dlongwane, why did you change, after one solitary detention your life changed completely. In February you were detained, in March you became a State Witness, the following month you were an informer. Why did that not have a fixed effect on you?

MR DLONGWANE: I did explain from the onset that because of beatings, because of the pressure from my mother who came to me after she was visited by the police several times to come and speak to me so that I confess or I tell the truth about the actually the dynamite and the other explosives.

MR NYOKA: And you remember you said you were in solitary confinement, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: How did you mother visit you in solitary confinement? No one was visiting people in solitary confinement, except for a doctor.

MR DLONGWANE: That is the time when the police brought my mother to Swartkop police station and then after my mother spoke to me and then I agreed that right, I am going to be a State Witness and then from there, they took me to my home where they searched my home and then they got the documents etc and from then I was literally removed from the solitary confinement and then I had to join the other criminals and then that is how my mother visited me.

MR NYOKA: Is it not correct that you were recruited much earlier in 1977 when you were arrested with other people at Algoa Park, you testified against them? It's in the ANC document.

MR DLONGWANE: It's not true.

MR NYOKA: You made that up?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I made that up, actually while I was in Angola.

MR NYOKA: Why? Why did you make it up?

MR DLONGWANE: It's because the ANC wanted me to make it up. Not the ANC as an organisation, but people who were in the Security.

MR NYOKA: how did you feel when the results were announced that the ANC was into power by majority vote? How did you feel at that stage when you learned that the people you fought so hard against were in power? How did you feel?

MR DLONGWANE: No, actually I had the pride that at least apartheid is dead and then at least there will be a democratic South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Including communism. What did you think about it then?

MR DLONGWANE: No, it's because, I mean when you talk about communism, I had learned a lot about communism while I was in the foreign states, so there's nothing that came up about communism in my mind.

MR NYOKA: You formed that returned exiles committee and you were given payments throughout by all types of organisations, including the homeland system organisations, not so and you were jetted up and down the country, given money, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: It is true.

MR NYOKA: And that was good living, not so? Good living, luxurious living.

MR DLONGWANE: It was not a good living, but the aim was to ensure that we achieve our goal.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you earn at that time when you started to be an informer?

MR DLONGWANE: They would give R100 sometimes R150.

CHAIRPERSON: A month?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you took that job?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I took the job.

CHAIRPERSON: And by 1985, what were you earning?

MR DLONGWANE: At 1985 I can't remember exactly the month.

CHAIRPERSON: But it must have been more than R100 - R150, you must have got an increase, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: I can't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't bargain for an increase?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And what would your bonuses be once you did a job?

MR DLONGWANE: It would depend.

CHAIRPERSON: On what?

MR DLONGWANE: How much money they gave me on top of the money I earned.

CHAIRPERSON: No, what would they pay you?

MR DLONGWANE: Sometimes it would be R300.

CHAIRPERSON: Extra?

MR DLONGWANE: No R300, which means R200 with my salary, which was R100.

CHAIRPERSON: So you'd get R200 when you gave good information?

MR DLONGWANE: It's true.

CHAIRPERSON: What else would you get paid for?

MR DLONGWANE: I did mention, it's to attend the meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, and provide information.

MR DLONGWANE: And provide information.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MR DLONGWANE: No there is nothing that I ...

CHAIRPERSON: You work for six years at that rate, without looking for another job?

MR DLONGWANE: I worked at some stage at D F Scot Wholesalers.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

MR DLONGWANE: That was the time when I came out from prison, 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: You were an informer already?

MR DLONGWANE: I was an informer 1980, but because I was arrested and from then, then I got a job at D F Scot Wholesalers then I tried to go and look...

CHAIRPERSON: And what were you earning then?

MR DLONGWANE: At D F Scot, well actually we used to earn about R75 per week.

CHAIRPERSON: So that would have been about R300 per month?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, deductions, P.A.Y.E.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's equal to your top salary with the police?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you leave the police then?

MR DLONGWANE: I've got no answer.

MR NYOKA: is it not correct that when you left Port Elizabeth in 1980 for Queenstown, you were assigned to Security Branch people there? Remember?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: And then when you acquired an unlicensed firearm, you came back to P E without informing the Queenstown Security Branch?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Do you agree with me that was irregular for you to do that? You were an undisciplined informer in other words, because you left people without telling them and when you came to P E you didn't tell your handlers that: "People, I'm back". You never told anyone, not so? So you were undisciplined, an undisciplined informer, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: I cannot regard myself as an undisciplined person.

MR NYOKA: No, you are not now, then you were an undisciplined in former then?

MR DLONGWANE: I've got no comment on that.

ADV SANDI: When you came to Queenstown, didn't you join up with one member of the Security Police?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: I've forgotten the name. What was his name?

MR DLONGWANE: Van Vuuren.

ADV SANDI: And you told him that you were coming from Port Elizabeth where you had been working as an informer?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: He phoned, or he contacted Port Elizabeth Security Police who confirmed that you were in fact an informer?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Mr Dlongwane, when you testified before the Botswana Commission, you took an oath, not so, that you were going to tell the truth?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: You also testified before the Human Rights Violations Committee that you were going to tell the truth?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: And also in that court where you falsely testified against my clients, not so, that you were going to tell the truth, but you lied against them, not so? You took an oath that you were going to tell the truth.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Why would in this fourth occasion should we believe you because every time you go under oath, you don't tell the truth, why should we believe you today?

MR DLONGWANE: I think the reason is that one wants to come clean.

MR NYOKA: You've been coming clean for three times before. How cleaner can you get?

MR DLONGWANE: And on top of that philosophically matter, it is always in a constant motion and it changes forms.

CHAIRPERSON: We're going into the realms of outer space now.

MR NYOKA: I was just about to phone Isaac Newton, but my phone is not permissible here. I was going to phone Newton.

Mr Dlongwane, why - did it not strike you as strange that when you were burning these houses, it was black Security Forces that were being used? Did that not strike you as strange that hey, but why are we the only ones who are burning? Did that not strike you as strange?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, it did.

MR NYOKA: And what did you do about that?

MR DLONGWANE: Nothing.

MR NYOKA: And why did you remain in the van when the house of Mrs Gcina was being burned? Why did you remain in the van? Why go there after all if you are going to remain in the car?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I was told to remain in the car, in the kombi.

MR NYOKA: Why?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know what was the reason for Tongatha to instruct me to actually remain in the car.

MR NYOKA: In Mrs Hashe's house, did you participate? Did you go into the house?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

MR NYOKA: Because my instructions are that people were hailing insults at Mrs Hashe and the family.

MR DLONGWANE: No, I was not inside.

CHAIRPERSON: You threw a petrol bomb at the house?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

ADV SANDI: Who threw the petrol bomb there?

MR DLONGWANE: People who were there, it was myself, Mene and Tongatha, but myself I was in the kombi, I cannot remember who threw the petrol bomb.

MR NYOKA: Mr Dlongwane in 1997 in the very same hall, when some Human Rights applicants were applying for amnesty regarding the ...(indistinct) I remember I asked a question: "Why could they not have opted for burning the houses of activists rather than killing them?" You know what the answer was? The answer was: "That was not viable to kill them, we never did that." They denied that they were petrol bombing houses, it was not a viable option, yet today you are saying that you did that with the Security Forces. Who do we have to believe now? That was denied by your employers, your superiors, burning people's houses.

MR DLONGWANE: It is obvious that they are going to deny, but the truth is, they did and they have disrupted communities. It is the truth and I was there and I have seen them with my naked eye.

MR NYOKA: Do you feel you achieved your goals when you petrol bombed the houses? Do you think you achieved them, those goals, at the time?

MR DLONGWANE: At that time, yes.

MR NYOKA: Why? Were people demoralised? Did the struggle stop? Did the activists become silent?

MR DLONGWANE: No, but the struggle continued and became worse.

MR NYOKA: But why do you think you succeeded then if that was the case?

MR DLONGWANE: When I say I succeeded, or we succeeded, its because the petrol bombs were thrown into those houses with the expectation that people would not respond into the call from their leaders, but people resisted and they continued with the struggle.

MR NYOKA: Did you at any stage meet some of my clients in Port Elizabeth recently? Mr Nklansie, Kolo Makapela and Leo, did you meet them to apologise privately?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I met them.

MR NYOKA: And what did they say to you?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually they understood my situation.

MR NYOKA: Did they not say you must come here to apologise before the people? They were not the ones personally involved, even though directly, but it was the community?

MR DLONGWANE: Of course, yes, that is what they ...(indistinct)

MR NYOKA: Why are you shy about that? Why don't you say they said go to the TRC? Why are you shy about that?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I am not shy because I am here because I was told by Deputy-President Jacob Zuma to go to the TRC.

MR NYOKA: Please, stop using his name. Stop using his name.

MR DLONGWANE: But he is in my statement.

MR NYOKA: Ja he can be in your statement, but it depends on who the person is who is speaking. I find it strange that when you were an informer, you attended the meetings, the mass meetings from 1980, 81, 82, 83, 84 as an informer, but the speeches of my clients and other leaders did not impress you. You had to be impressed by one person, Oliver Tambo, maybe they did not do a good job, ne? Because you were listening. You must have been converted when they said the same thing that Mr Tambo said, not so?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka I think that your clients would also concede that Mr Tambo was good.

MR NYOKA: Maybe I'm just teasing with Mr Dlongwane. They did not impress you very well even though you were listening as an informer.

MR DLONGWANE: Actually President Tambo's speech was a very heavy speech.

MR NYOKA: Why did you listen to Radio Freedom when you were an informer? Why did you bother to listen to a communist propaganda machine, that's what it was called.

MR DLONGWANE: I think it is proper for a person to ensure that he balances things throughout the struggle.

MR NYOKA: Which struggle?

MR DLONGWANE: Or in his life or her life.

MR NYOKA: That law of motion you are talking about, you were in motion towards the right track of freedom. Remember that law of motion you were talking about?

MR DLONGWANE: Of which I happened to be in exile after that.

MR NYOKA: I put it to you it was convenient of you to use Radio Freedom. You went there for other reasons because you were losing the war with your Security Forces, but the only thing that you did, you were using them in return to get money, as much money as possible. You knew that they were losing the war, but you used them for money and now you want your hands to be cleansed, any comment?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I've got no comment.

MR NYOKA: I put it to you that if PEBCO was paying you the very first time, you would have not joined the other side and also in your statement you said you joined ...(indistinct) in 1976, is that correct? First page of your bundle.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: ...(indistinct) was not in existence in 1976, it started 1977. That's the instruction of my clients. any comment about that? And it was there just for a short while, then it got banned after the death of Steve Biko, it was there for three or four months. Why do you say you joined ...(indistinct) in 1976 when it was not there?

MR DLONGWANE: I made it clear to my lawyer that 1996, that 1976 I was in the struggle. Actually 1977 I was schooling at Philipilekiwe whereby we were - actually where I joined members of the South African Students' Movement and I happened to be one of them.

MR NYOKA: Which struggle - in which capacity were you in the struggle in 1976? Which political home did you belong to?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually Black People's Convention.

MR NYOKA: Why is it the first time that we are hearing about that? It's not in your statement that you were for Black, BPC? It doesn't appear in your statement, this is news now.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes of course, actually that is what I'm telling you because at that time my ideology was Blackism.

MR NYOKA: It's the first time that I'm hearing of Blackism, but I will not dispute that. I can assure you that there was no political organisation propagating Blackism, maybe you should start that one. I noticed that your statement was signed or commissioned on the 13th of September 1997. On the cut-off date of the second extension for amnesty applications, if you were repenting or remorseful, why did you wait that long, because there were others that your seniors came even before you to apply on the very last day of the cut-off date, second extension, why?

MR DLONGWANE: The first time when I had to confess, that was 1996 and because of the commitments of my attorney in Pietermaritzburg, that took long.

MR NYOKA: Did you inform your fellow members of the Returned Exile Committee that you were going to apply for amnesty?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I did.

MR NYOKA: And what was their reaction?

MR DLONGWANE: From 1994 the Returned Exiles Committee dissolved and some joined different political parties and some rejoined the African National Congress, so one had a choice to take his own decision and I openly told even media people that I won't be asking for the amnesty and I am going home, I will be rejoining the African National Congress.

MR NYOKA: When last did you have contact with members of the former Security Forces? When last did you have contact after you returned to South Africa?

MR DLONGWANE: It was 1994, before our organisation or the Committee was dissolved.

MR NYOKA: Did any of them contact you after learning that you are going to apply for amnesty, directly or indirectly?

MR DLONGWANE: They all ran away because I made it openly, so nobody wanted to associate him or herself and even a guy who used to work with me, he even moved from his house to another place because he knew I was going to point him out and he's going to lose his job because of the dirty tricks that we were involved in.

MR NYOKA: Do you know of any other people, you don't have to mention their names, that were informers like you here in Port Elizabeth?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Roughly how many? I see you are smiling.

MR DLONGWANE: That's a difficult question.

MR NYOKA: I'm not asking their identities. The number, their number, what's difficult with that? I'm not saying mention them, a, b, c, d, just their number.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka, maybe you're talking at cross purposes because these people also had numbers. How many perhaps is the proper.

MR NYOKA: How many, as one, two, three, how many informers were here in Port Elizabeth that you were operating with that shared your views?

MR DLONGWANE: I can't remember because my number was 446.

MR NYOKA: I mean when there were such missions as going to petrol bombing, you'll see someone and say: "Oh, you’re also a comrade?" Did you not see them?

MR DLONGWANE: No, the Security Police, they never operated like that.

MR NYOKA: How did they operate like?

MR DLONGWANE: The other informer would not see other informers.

MR NYOKA: So you do not know of any other informers?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka, you know very well that the Security Police operated on the need to know basis. We've heard that so many times.

MR NYOKA: ... some ground for some stupidity to some extent, or just a lapse of cleverness or you know whatever Mr Chairman. It's the first time that I'm cross-examining a self-confessed informer. I must take as much as I can from him.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't push your luck.

MR NYOKA: You remember also, although you didn't mention this, this is very important regarding the PEBCO ...(indistinct) you said you were instructed by Sgt Faku that Mr Niewoudt said you must make, check information on UDF offices. You phoned that day and then you learned that the PEBCO three were kidnapped. You still stick with that?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Were you not curious why your phone call will lead to the ...(indistinct) you didn't ask your handlers: "Hey what happened to the PEBCO three" from 1985, we're in 2000 now, did you never ask them?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I never asked them.

MR NYOKA: My instructions are that it is not true that you were the one who phoned, you are just trying to link yourself with the PEBCO three disappearance to ...(indistinct) your application, to sensationalise your application. Any comment about that?

MR DLONGWANE: I do have a comment, because even in exile I did mention that.

MR NYOKA: But it's not in your confession, that is what I was going to ask. It's not appearing in your confession that: "Gentlemen, I have a linkage with the PEBCO three", it doesn't appear in the confession to ANC, nor even to the Motsanyuane Commission, it's not mentioned. Why do you not mention to the ANC: "Gentlemen, the people that you are looking for, I was sent to gather information about them"?

MR DLONGWANE: I did mention in the ANC.

MR NYOKA: But it's not in the statements. My instructions are that Mr Makapela and Ms ...(indistinct) were never involved in that incident of stoning busses.

MR DLONGWANE: I agree.

MR NYOKA: And Mr Mtatsi was just in a meeting at Mahakana Street, never threw stones at a bus. Do you agree also?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, I agree.

MR NYOKA: And did you take any effort to confront them when you returned to South Africa and say: "Gentlemen, I'm sorry about this, I lied about it."?

MR DLONGWANE: I told them.

MR NYOKA: You told them?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: I see your voice is going down. When?

MR DLONGWANE: 1998.

MR NYOKA: Why wait so long? Some people spent a whole year in prison because you misled the court.

MR DLONGWANE: Actually that came because of the change of heart.

ADV SANDI: What about the, I suppose it was a Magistrate, who found these people guilty and he sent them to jail? did you go back to him to say that: "Look I was lying these people were not there"?

MR DLONGWANE: No. No because actually a person, a prosecutor who was there in court, I met him at Sanlam building and he also directed me and he also informed me on how he's going to question me.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his name?

MR DLONGWANE: I just forget.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you describe him?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, he's a white person but I can't remember ...

CHAIRPERSON: That helps me a lot. There were only white prosecutors those days. What else can you say about him? Was he short, tall?

MR DLONGWANE: He was tall.

CHAIRPERSON: What colour hair?

MR DLONGWANE: I can't remember colour hair.

CHAIRPERSON: And you spoke to him?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I spoke to him.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you refer to him?

MR DLONGWANE: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: How did you speak to him? How did you refer to him?

MR DLONGWANE: No, actually he was called by Capt Roelofse and Niewoudt and then he actually was called and then he told me on how he's going to ask me questions, that's all, nothing further.

MR NYOKA: You were also having an interest in drama plays, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Did your interest in drama plays not play a big role in your trying to infiltrate people and exaggerate information that you were giving to the police, did it not help?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I didn't look at it like that.

MR NYOKA: You were getting ...(indistinct) for each bit of information, sure you exaggerated and lied to ensure that you maximise your payments of R100, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

MR NYOKA: No. I'm told that you said that you were involved in the planning of the consumer boycott or bus boycott, my instructions are that it was only the executives of PEBCO, COSAS and MACUSA that were involved in the planning. No non-executive member was involved in that. Why did you say therefore that you were involved in the planning of the bus boycott when you were not an executive member?

MR DLONGWANE: What I remember well is that in the meeting I was there and this was discussed and the following - and then the next step, that is when we attended a meeting in KwaZakhele and on our way back, that is when we stoned busses on a Sunday.

MR NYOKA: Is it correct that you were in the general meetings, not in Executive meetings? In other words you are taking second-hand information, not the co-planning of any action, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: I can take it that way.

MR NYOKA: And so what you gave over was not very first-hand or reliable.

MR DLONGWANE: I've got no comment.

MR NYOKA: No, you must comment. Why don't you have a comment? You are here to tell us the truth. I'm not going to accept that. You are going to tell us the truth. You must make full disclosure in order to get amnesty.

MR DLONGWANE: No, I've got no comment on that.

MR NYOKA: Are you refusing or you are not able to answer it? Are you refusing to answer the question or you are not able?

MR DLONGWANE: I am not able to answer it because I do not understand when you say, because the information was a second-hand information. Second-hand and the first information, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to me, is it true you were not in executive meetings?

MR DLONGWANE: I was not in the Executive, but I was in the meeting where we spoke about it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, listen to me.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you ever - do you know about a meeting of all these three or four organisations' executives? Do you know of a meeting like that?

MR DLONGWANE: I know of the meeting which was called where the issue of the bus boycott was discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: No, listen to me. Do you know of a meeting that occurred where the Executive Committees of PEBCO - who were they?

MR NYOKA: PEBCO, COSAS and MACUSA and PACO.

CHAIRPERSON: Those four Executive Committees met, do you know of such a meeting?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it's been put to you that on occasion that time, those four organisations' Executive Committees met where they discussed the issue of the busses and they decided that they were going to recommend that a bus boycott should take place. Correct? You say you don't know of a meeting like that, so obviously you can't dispute what he proposes to you?

MR DLONGWANE: Myself, I know of the general meeting which I attended ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlongwane, I'm not so clever, I can't go forward, I'm going step by step, do you understand?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't dispute what has been the proposition that has been put to you?

MR DLONGWANE: I cannot dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now what he's saying is that when you went to report to your handlers and the Security Police, you were reporting on issues regarding the recommendation, the boycott, the using of buses, not what was discussed in that combined Executive Committee meeting, do you understand?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that's what Mr Nyoka's saying, that your reports to your handlers were of a second-hand nature because you weren't present at the main meeting where that decision was taken. Do you follow?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So he's not trying to make a fool of you and he's not disputing any, he's just putting it to you for the purposes of the record. Have you got any comment about that?

MR DLONGWANE: No, I've got no comment.

MR NYOKA: In other words if Mr Niewoudt chose to get into the hall and sit at the back, he would have got that information himself without using you, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: He did, many a times.

MR NYOKA: So what was your role then, if someone could just enter the hall and listen to a mass meeting? What was your role, other than getting money for scrappy information? Please do answer my question.

MR DLONGWANE: I've got no comment.

MR NYOKA: Thank you. If Mr - lastly I'm going to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you accept what he says?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, I understand what he says.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand what he said?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And you accept that?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, because I have seen him coming to the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. It's been put to you that your role there was purposeless and your only involvement was to collect money. That's what's been put to you. Do you agree with what he says, or do you dispute it, or what is the position?

MR DLONGWANE: Regarding collecting money, I still insist I've got no comment.

CHAIRPERSON: So do you agree with what he says on this?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, in all what he says, I agree, but when coming to collecting money, I don't agree with him.

MR NYOKA: And finally Mr Dlongwane, if you want my client and the community to forgive you, why is it that you are not applying for amnesty for killing Mr Mpendo, Mr Jack's uncle? You admitted that he was shot nine times by Toksana Nkalinda and then you also participated by assaulting him with a stick. Why is it that you leave other things? You apply for bits and pieces and you leave other things? Why don't you apply for everything that is political that you were involved in if you are sincere, you want an apology and you are very remorseful and you are a changed person now?

MR DLONGWANE: Regarding the case of the late Mr Mpendo, since he was killed I was present there and even at this point in time, I still felt that ...(indistinct) Jack and the community, they have to know who killed Mr Mpendo on that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: You must stop interpreting things to suit yourself. In the documents you did not only say you were present when that gentleman was killed, you hit him with a stick. That's what you say in your statement. He was shot nine times and you brutalised his body. I can't remember for what purpose but you used a stick to brutalise his body. That's what you said in your statement. So what I'm saying to you is don't come tell us or distance yourself from the event and the question was direct to you, a simple question. Why don't you apply for that incident?

MR DLONGWANE: No, when I made my application for the amnesty, then regarding the issue or the death of Mr Mpendo, then a person I said to myself a person who needs to apply for Mr Mpendo's death is Toksana Nkalinda.

MR NYOKA: How can he apply for amnesty when he's dead? He died.

MR DLONGWANE: I don't have ...(indistinct)

MR NYOKA: Okay. Do you deny or admit the fact that you assaulted Mr Mpendo after he was shot?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't deny.

MR NYOKA: Why didn't you apply for amnesty for the assault then? Let's say it's not murder, you don't believe that you killed him, but why didn't you apply for amnesty for assault, the part that you played?

MR DLONGWANE: I didn't see actually a reason why I had to apply because I knew the person who killed him.

ADV SANDI: But don't you regard it as a crime to beat a person with a stick? Isn't that a crime?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja it is a crime.

ADV SANDI: You still didn't see any need to apply for amnesty for that?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja because in my mind I said actually I had seen the person who shot him and the person was not even arrested.

ADV SANDI: And you kept quiet about it?

MR DLONGWANE: I kept quiet until I told the ANC in exile.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell his relatives inside the country what you had seen?

MR DLONGWANE: I told yes. I met Nkuseli Jack and then I told him.

ADV SANDI: But when was that?

MR DLONGWANE: That was 1998.

ADV SANDI: Ja, you didn't go and tell him immediately after the incident, did you, you didn't?

MR NYOKA: According to the ANC you also made an admission that you shot and killed two other people, Mr Mateza, Chairperson of the Loyiso Secondary Schools Committee and Mr Lulamile, ...(indistinct) member. Do you deny that, or you admit it?

MR DLONGWANE: I deny.

MR NYOKA: It was something that he made up?

MR DLONGWANE: The one of Lulamile, it is something that I made up. Of Mr Mateza a person who shot Mr Mateza, it was Mr Mpeno's son, what you call a Mr Phuthu's son, by the name of Xola and I was there and then he was charged by the Murder and Robbery Squad and he was sentenced, but then the Security Members of the ANC, they wanted me to actually to claim the responsibility.

MR NYOKA: If a ten year old was in this hall and was told that you want to be forgiven for burning the houses of activists and falsely testifying against activists, although you admit having assaulted someone, but you're not applying for amnesty for that, would that convince even a ten year old that you are really remorseful? You admit that you assaulted someone but you don't apply for amnesty, you don't say anything about that. Would a ten year old be convinced that you are really remorseful, Mr Dlongwane?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka the fact that he's not remorseful or otherwise, is not a requirement of the Act.

MR NYOKA: That he was sorry Mr Chairperson and he cried. I was touched. I want to see whether I should be touched after leaving this hall, or should I abandon my being touched.

CHAIRPERSON: That's for the community to decide.

MR NYOKA: My clients are not impressed with your performance in general, you have not told us the truth. I wish to put it to you now, not in argument, whilst you are still there. We are not - my clients are not impressed that you spoke the truth. You are still not telling us the truth as you did before and now because circumstances suit you, the people that you fought against are not with you, you want to change like a chameleon. Any comment?

MR DLONGWANE: I told myself that when I come here, I'm coming to tell the truth and ask for an apology, for forgiveness.

MR NYOKA: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chair, I'll be short.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Dlongwane, the problem is not only does Mr Nyoka's people not believe you, I'm going to show to you that you're not being honest with this Committee. Can you just quickly, for background purposes tell me which organisations you belonged to since 1976. You said to us in 1976 you belonged to the BPC. What position was that, just a member?

MR DLONGWANE: I said 1976 I was in the struggle, influenced by the Soweto uprising.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, no, I just want to know the organisations.

MR DLONGWANE: The organisations that were there, 1977, there was BPC, there was ...(intervention)

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, sorry Mr Dlongwane, we're going to cut this much sorter. I want to know which organisations you belonged to.

MR DLONGWANE: I was in the ...(indistinct) while I was at school

MR VAN DER MERWE: When was that?

MR DLONGWANE: That was 1997.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And in 1976 were you a member of the BPC or not?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually 76, because the whole struggle, I would say people who were in the forefront, were the people who had beliefs of the Black Consciousness and I happened also to have those beliefs.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Were you a member, yes or no?

MR DLONGWANE: I was never been a card carrier member of those organisations but my beliefs ...(intervention)

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you. That's easy, so you weren't a member. Did you belong to any other organisations?

MR DLONGWANE: I was a card carrying member of PEBCO.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Of PEBCO? Since when?

MR DLONGWANE: 1979, from its formation.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And apart from PEBCO?

MR DLONGWANE: I was also a PACO member.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Since when?

MR DLONGWANE: Since 1983.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the President then?

MR DLONGWANE: The President was Nkuseli Jack.

CHAIRPERSON: 1983?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And of PEBCO in 1979, when you joined, who was the President then?

MR DLONGWANE: It was Thozamile Bota.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chair. In all these organisations you were involved just as a member, a card-carrying member, you weren't on the Executive or anything like that, is that true?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And in both these organisations, how long did you serve? How long were you a member of PEBCO?

MR DLONGWANE: I've been a member of PEBCO until 1983.

MR VAN DER MERWE: 83, PEBCO, thank you. And PACO?

MR DLONGWANE: And in PACO until 1984.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Why did you end your membership?

MR DLONGWANE: No its because of my activities.

MR VAN DER MERWE: What activities?

MR DLONGWANE: Of being a police informer.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So are you telling me the community was aware that you were a police informer?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, they were.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Now if the community was aware that you were a police informer, you want to tell me - well before I get there, may I just ask, in bundle 1 you supplied us with an affidavit which is on page 9 to page 36 and signed by yourself in front of a Commissioner of Oaths which is your TRC application. Do you confirm this, or is there any, is this the whole truth, as you say, or are there some untruths in there?

MR DLONGWANE: It's the truth.

MR VAN DER MERWE: All of it? Right. Then if we turn to page 13 of it, why would Sgt Faku who is obviously also deceased at this stage, why would he ask you and tell you that Col Gideon Niewoudt told you that you should attend the UDF offices to provide information when everybody in the whole of South Africa knows you're an "impimpi"? Why would he send you to the UDF offices? Surely he's got people that's better placed? Does it make sense to you?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, it does make sense, after I was told by Nkuseli Jack when we had a meeting together with Zola Mtatsi and all the colleagues, 1998, that for a long time they have been watching me, they knew for the fact that I was a police informer.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, you must listen to my question please Mr Dlongwane. You resigned out of PEBCO and PACO in 83 and 84 because of the fact that everybody knew you were an impimpi.

MR DLONGWANE: Actually I never officially resigned.

MR VAN DER MERWE; You just disappeared.

MR DLONGWANE: I was not involved the way I used to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlongwane, you just testified that in 1984 the public in general knew that you were a police informer, correct?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1985 is the question. If everybody knew that you were a police informer in 1984, why would Faku and or Niewoudt instruct you to go to the offices of the United Democratic Front to obtain information? Foolish.

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know what was the reason behind that, but the instruction was given to me.

MR VAN DER MERWE; Thank you Mr Chair. And then, strangely enough, the only names you mention are the three names of the people who were killed in the PEBCO Three incident. Isn't this a matter of where you were trying to just move yourself into a place where people can take notice of you? You wanted to impress people that you were involved in this and you knew about everything, isn't that true and that what you told here is not true actually?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't agree with you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let me ask you quickly. Did you ever go to the PEBCO office in those days?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Where was the PEBCO office?

MR DLONGWANE: ...(indistinct) opposite the New Law Courts.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No Sir, that was the UDF offices. It was Court Chambers and I think maybe some of the other people around here must have been there. I don't want to speculate but you're wrong. Where were PEBCO's offices in those days? I will tell you where it was.

MR DLONGWANE: I still say it was opposite the New Law Courts.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well you're wrong. It was at Lemane's Garage on the top, next to the - close by the Dan ...(indistinct) stadium, Johnson road. Now if you were such a good informer you would know that and a member of PEBCO, isn't that so?

MR DLONGWANE: I still continue to say opposite the New Law Courts.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No well you are wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: What would you say if it's proved to you that you are wrong?

MR DLONGWANE: That is how myself I understood it.

CHAIRPERSON: No well never mind what you understood, if you're proved to be wrong, what do you say then?

MR DLONGWANE: I won't have any comment.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let me just place it on record. These are the instructions I received from Mr Niewoudt this morning and Mrs Gcina who is sitting on my right-hand side confirms that it's correct, so you are wrong and she's not even my client. When you were in Lesotho, did you ever meet the MK Military Commander there?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Why not? In 1983.

MR DLONGWANE: I met the members of the ANC, but who was the cadre there, I do not know.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So you don't even know what his name was? If I tell you his name was Alfred Nwana, it wouldn't mean anything to you? Not?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right. When you were sent - I'm just touching on a couple of aspects, just to show you that you are talking nonsense.

MR DLONGWANE: Don't swear at me please.

MR VAN DER MERWE: When you went to Queenstown, you said your main task according to you was to monitor COSAS and AZAPO in Queenstown, is that right?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: How would you have done that? By infiltrating the organisations?

MR DLONGWANE: Because of course it was my job to infiltrate.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, listen to my question.

MR DLONGWANE: To infiltrate.

MR VAN DER MERWE: To infiltrate. So you were going to infiltrate two organisations that were in conflict with each other and you didn't think that strange? I want to put it to you, it's impossible to do that because people in COSAS would have seen you if you were associating with AZAPO and vice versa.

MR DLONGWANE: It is news to me that AZAPO and COSAS were in conflict in Queenstown.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well then maybe you weren't on the same planet as us during those years.

ADV SANDI: These two organisations, either in conflict or if not engaged in an actual conflict, there would be tension of some kind in many places in the country and I would suppose that Queenstown would have been one of them. They were not working together, were they, COSAS and AZAPO?

MR DLONGWANE: COSAS was a student body.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember, I don't know if you know him or knew him, Mr Goniwe, the late Mr Goniwe?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: Four of them were assassinated, do you remember?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In about 1985 I think. And you know the people who killed them made application I think in this very hall for amnesty in respect of those murders and you know the reason they gave for assassinating those people is that they were fuelling the rumpus and the burning in the Eastern Cape and they murdered them so that it looked like an assassination by AZAPO. So even the Security Police knew that that conflict which they were themselves fuelling was not only restricted to Port Elizabeth, but right around the Eastern Cape, that's what they testified here. Are you still telling us you were unaware of this conflict, no matter how it started and why it started, it did not exist in Queenstown?

MR DLONGWANE: The year 1980 when I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about 1985.

MR DLONGWANE: Regarding Queenstown 1985, I do not have any knowledge but I have seen it happening in Port Elizabeth.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chair. I'll proceed. Mr Dlongwane, when were you arrested as a result of this bus boycott and the burning and stoning of busses?

MR DLONGWANE: I was arrested 1983.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Together with all the other people that were arrested or were you arrested on your own?

MR DLONGWANE: No, when I was arrested, we were only four and then from then the raid was made and myself, I went to the house of Sandisile Dahile and the police went to collect all the members.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So how many of you were arrested in the end, approximately?

MR DLONGWANE: I can't remember the figure, but the first time when we were arrested, we were four.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You then decided during this time of your detention that you were going to turn State Witness, is that correct?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: But you were not the only State Witness, there were two other guys by the name of Mlamle Tambo and one by the name of Lucy who turned State Witness with you, am I correct?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I still remember.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja, so it's not only your evidence that led to the conviction of the gentleman on my right, but there were two other guys who gave testimony as well. That's right?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And two other guys refused to testify, Mr Motang and Mr Sekutu and they were sentenced to six months imprisonment for their refusal to testify, can you remember that?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Now after you gave evidence in this matter, which was a public criminal trial, everybody knew who you were and that you were on the side of the Security Establishment, is that right?

MR DLONGWANE: yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Do you still believe and are you trying to convince this Committee that they must accept the fact that the Security Police could use you in any form whatsoever after this, after you've been shown to the people as part of their apparatus?

MR DLONGWANE: I still insist to say they did use me after that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Alright. I'm not going to waste the Committee's time any further. My instructions are as follows, that neither Mr Niewoudt nor Capt or Col Roelofse at that stage had any dealings with you, you were not their informer and they never dealt with you and if you say so, you are lying.

MR DLONGWANE: They are the liars.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I have further instructions from whom I now know should be Mr Mbatla Tongatha that he has never had any dealings with you either and if you say you had dealings with him, you are not telling the truth.

MR DLONGWANE: I disagree with him.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right. Was there any special ability that you had, why they had to take you with as a witness when they petrol bombed houses, or was it just the fact that they had to take someone with who can come and give evidence about it?

MR DLONGWANE: Can you be specific?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Why did they have to take you with, Mr Dlongwane, if they had to go petrol bomb houses?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know what was behind that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well, let's get to the front of it. You were never a member of the SAP those days? You were never a member of the South African Police.

MR DLONGWANE: I disagree with you because 1992 Pretoria also confirmed that I worked for the South African Police as a spy.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, listen to what I'm saying. I see the newspaper says you were a super spy. We'll decide on that later. What I'm saying is you were never a member of the SAP, if you were, you would have had a force number, a South African Police Force number.

MR DLONGWANE: My Force number was 446/80.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, that's not a force number, Mr Dlongwane.

MR DLONGWANE: Maybe then you can tell me more, if you are a policeman.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, I'm not a policeman, I might look like one, but I'm not. I'm an attorney. I appear for lots of policemen, but a police force number has a w or a number in front and a longer number, it has got about seven or eight digits ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That may be official policemen, Mr van der Merwe, but maybe you got shorter numbers for informers.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman ...

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not an expert, I'm just suggesting it.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm not an expert either but what I do know is that if you're an informer, you are not a policeman. You don't go on a payroll, you don't go on a medical aid, you don't go on a pension scheme, you don't qualify for housing scheme, and you don't wear a uniform. An informer is someone that approaches the South African Police at that stage, with information which he sells. That is what an informer is. Is that what you did?

MR DLONGWANE: I did explain that I had a stable salary being an informer.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And this salary, how was it paid to you?

MR DLONGWANE: Every month and then I had to sign the receipt.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I mean was it paid in cash or was it paid into a bank account, or how did you receive it.

MR DLONGWANE: It was paid in cash.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Were all the other policemen paid in cash in those days?

MR DLONGWANE: I never even asked one of them how does he get his salary.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I will tell you. They were paid into a bank account. But let's leave it there. My instructions are just that you were never employed by the South African Police and the three gentlemen I've mentioned, which is Roelofse, Niewoudt and Tongatha, never had any dealings with you. They cannot say you weren't an informer. You might have been an informer for other policemen, they don't know, but you simply did not inform them and you never received any instructions from them.

MR DLONGWANE: I disagree.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right. Did you know the name of Mrs Mawela? Does it ring a bell?

MR DLONGWANE: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well, let me help you. This is a lady who was put out of her house, her house was close to the Crown Bioscope building, by Thamsanga Linda.

MR DLONGWANE: Ja, I remember the incident.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you lived in that house, together with some of the other gentlemen that were supposedly looking after Thamsanga Linda, can you remember that?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you know that there was a big story about the fact that Mr Linda just took the house from her, chased her out the house and took the house and used it as he wanted to? PEBCO still, PEBCO was very upset about that. Do you know that?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Now my instructions are that you were part of Mr Linda's vigilante group who lived there and terrorised the community.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, because I was instructed by Deon Niewoudt and Roelofse to go and assist Linda.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You've now moved to first name terms. Deon Niewoudt. Why didn't you mention that in your statement?

MR DLONGWANE: It is.

MR VAN DER MERWE: It is not in here, Sir. You said you received instructions that you should assist them when they were attacked, not to terrorise the community. Is that right?

MR DLONGWANE: When now we are talking about terrorising, that is not in my statement.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I will leave that. You mention on the same page of your statement: "We also enlisted the services of the Black Jacks in these attacks." What are Black Jacks?

MR DLONGWANE: Those were the Municipality police.

MR VAN DER MERWE: But that's not the Black Jacks in this community, they were called the Green Flies.

MR DLONGWANE: That's your own term.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No that is a fact.

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know that one.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'll tell you why you say Black Jacks, Mr Dlongwane, you're confused. In the old Transvaal, which is now Gauteng, they were called the Black Jacks. You're busy writing a story here, Mr Dlongwane, you're taking half as fact and half as fiction and mixing it up and thinking you can come to the TRC with a nice story and then just look at the people and say: "Now I want to be forgiven."

MR DLONGWANE: Actually, I disagree with you.

ADV SANDI: We must ask you to explain that. It has been put to you quite a number of times that you do not like telling the truth. Is that true?

MR DLONGWANE: I like telling the truth, as I am here.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but the statement you have furnished to this Committee shows that on quite a number of occasions you lied for various reasons. You lied to the Truth Commission when you appeared in 1996, not so?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: But you like telling the truth?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, that's the reason why I'm here, I'm coming to tell the truth.

ADV SANDI: Have you always been a person who like to tell the truth in your life?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: That is not reflected in the long statement you have submitted to this Committee. When you were impressed by the statement by Mr Nelson Mandela, that people should come and appear here before the TRC here, that was in 1996? You said you were moved by the statement he had made that people should come to the TRC and tell the truth. Do you remember saying that?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually I said 1994 I did appear.

ADV SANDI: Where?

MR DLONGWANE: Actually in the amnesty hearing, In the TRC, 1994 there was. Actually I even wrote a letter while I was living at Ulundi and I applied.

ADV SANDI: There was no TRC in 1994.

MR DLONGWANE: 1994 I did apply, I made a submission.

CHAIRPERSON: The Act is Act 34 of 1995.

ADV SANDI: Should I accept that as further evidence that you don't like telling the truth?

MR DLONGWANE: 1995 I was not at Ulundi. 1994, that's when I wrote a letter and then I asked to ensure that I also participate in the Truth Commission and then 1996 I was called in Durban.

ADV SANDI: If you say you were impressed by the statement that was made by Mr Nelson Mandela that people should come and testify before the TRC so that the truth can be known, why did you tell all these lies when you eventually appeared before the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC? People like the Late Mr Chris Hani, Mr Tshwete, Mr Jacob Zuma, Mr Alfred Nzo, had assaulted you whilst you were in exile, then later you said you were lying to say that.

MR DLONGWANE: I did mention for the fact that there was a purpose of saying so, because at that time I was working with the organisation that wanted to see the ANC losing the vote and to discredit the African National Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: That was a lot of mischief you were making.

MR DLONGWANE: It's difficult for me actually to accept that it was a mischief.

CHAIRPERSON: If it was lies, then what else can it be?

MR DLONGWANE: Because by influencing me to go to the Commission and instruct me to say A, B, C, D and then they had a purpose behind that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: As the Committee pleases. Mr Dlongwane, I just want to put to you that Mr Niewoudt, as Mrs Gcina and the other people will be aware, worked extensively on PEBCO. Everybody in PEBCO knew Mr Niewoudt. He harassed them, he gave them trouble right from the start, so why would he ask you to go tell him who is there and you come back to him with three names of people who weren't even on the PEBCO Executive at that stage, because none of the three names you mentioned to him were on the Executive of PEBCO at that stage. What type of information is this? Then you say he's paid you for it.

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know actually what was his reason behind or the hidden agenda.

MR VAN DER MERWE; Well I want to put it to you, he did not need you to inform him about PEBCO, he knew enough about PEBCO and that's why I'm saying, when you're saying he tasked you to go and find out about PEBCO, it is not true. I will take it further. According to you evidence, you were instructed to petrol bomb influential people's houses. Is that right?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Who gave you that instruction?

MR DLONGWANE: Deon Niewoudt.

MR VAN DER MERWE: On his own?

MR DLONGWANE: Roelofse.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Who gave you? Both of them? One of them?

MR DLONGWANE: Working together with Stanford Mene and Butler ...(indistinct).

MR VAN DER MERWE: And now when they instructed you, what did they give you? Did they give you names? Did they give you addresses? Or did they tell you, you can decide whom you want to attack?

MR DLONGWANE; Mbatla had a list of names and the addresses.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That he gave to you?

MR DLONGWANE: No, because myself, I was always with them in the kombi, I never committed those crimes of petrol bombing houses independently alone, I was always in their company and I stated very clear the reason being number one, they were causing a confusion while AZAPO and UDF, they had problems, as if UDF was or AZAPO was petrol bombing UDF houses.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Why didn't you write your affidavit, your statement, and say: "I didn't throw the petrol bombs", or "In some of the instances I threw them and in some of the instances Tongatha and Mene threw them"? You just said: "During this period I was involved with petrol bomb attacks on UDF houses" and they assisted you.

MR DLONGWANE: I said very clear that I was involved in the petrol bombings.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And they assisted you.

MR DLONGWANE: And then I was together with them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And they assisted you?

MR DLONGWANE: We were together.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Your language used in the application is: "Sgt Tongatha, Sgt Mene assisted in these attacks on the UDF houses". Is that right?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it's true, because myself, I was an informer and then they were the police.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Now when you run out or when you stay in the kombi and Tongatha throws the petrol bomb on the house, he's definitely not assisting you, he is doing the petrol bombing, then you aren't doing the petrol bombing, isn't that right?

MR DLONGWANE: I did mention for the fact that at some actual instances, I participated in throwing petrol bombs and in some occasions then Tongatha actually would be the one who would be throwing the petrol bombs.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I put it to you, this is something that has developed today and you have never before said that in any documentation that you've supplied to the TRC. It's just another reason why we should tread carefully on your evidence. You also in your evidence said, when you gave evidence, said they instructed me to petrol bomb these houses and they supplied me with the addresses and then you said: "I was not alone". Why was it necessary for them to supply you with addresses?

MR DLONGWANE: I did mention that the addresses were always available in the office and then they knew the houses and then they knew the leaders who have to be targeted.

MR VAN DER MERWE: But Mr Dlongwane, did you know Mr Sipho Hashe?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, I did.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you know where he lived?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you know Lulu Johnson?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you know where he lived?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I can go through the whole list. So why is it necessary for them to give you an address?

MR DLONGWANE: I did explain to you for the fact that they had an objective of targeting the so called big fishes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlongwane, the question is absolutely simple. Why was it necessary for you to obtain addresses from the police when you knew where these people stayed?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know what was the reason for them to give me the addresses.

ADV SANDI: But why didn't you say: "Look, Gentlemen, you don't have to give me these addresses, just give me the names, I know where most of these people live, I don't need the addresses." Why didn't you say that?

MR DLONGWANE: That never came into my mind.

ADV SANDI: Why not?

MD DLONGWANE: It's just like that. Actually it never came into my mind, totally.

ADV SANDI: Weren't you interested to impress them and show them that you are a good informer? You've got the information already about these people, you know where they stay.

MR DLONGWANE: No the part of impressing them, it never came into my mind.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let me ask you one of the last questions. You alleged that as an informer, you went to the Sanlam building and had meetings there at Sanlam building with the Security Police, is that right?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Was this something that happened regularly?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, every Mondays I would go to the Sanlam building, or if I don't go then they would come and meet me at Veeplaas.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Okay. And at that stage you were still a secret informer of the police?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Are you sure about that?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you want us to believe you can walk in and out of the Sanlam building and nobody in the community is going to know you're a police spy?

MR DLONGWANE: I never thought like that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let me tell you the Security ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that time what the bus terminus and the train station was there?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that?

MR DLONGWANE: I still remember.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say nobody saw you, or would have seen you?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know how many people saw me, that, I mean, I cannot deny.

ADV SANDI: Were you not concerned that people could see you?

MR DLONGWANE: No, that never ran in my mind.

ADV SANDI: You didn't care about that?

MR DLONGWANE: Not that, but it never ran in my mind.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'd just like to put to you my instructions from Mr Niewoudt and Roelofse is that whenever they saw informers, they would see them at places where they will not be noticed and the Security Police Head Quarters is the last place in the world that they would have seen you, if you were their informer, which you weren't, so it just proves further that you're not speaking the truth.

MR DLONGWANE; Unfortunately, actually it is difficult for me to mention the names of people that are not in this application, but there were those who can say: "Pat, I met you while I was detained by the Security Police. I saw you coming in a 6 o'clock."

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja, were you detained, or they detained?

MR DLONGWANE: No myself. I came there to report and I met the person while he was detained and that person, if I mean his name was here or I had a right to mention his name, he was going to agree with me that he saw me and "I was shocked when I saw you".

MR VAN DER MERWE: You possibly, Mr Dlongwane, as a suggestion, went there to try and sell a little bit more information and you weren't really an informer or a spy, just tried to go and collect some money.

MR DLONGWANE: I disagree with you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja. Your application on page 24, you refer to your propaganda campaign against the ANC and you say:

this is now after all the stuff that happened,

And then the last sentence of that paragraph says:

I thought you had turned your back on the Security establishment in 1986?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say he did it on behalf of the Security Police. I think he also said that the organisation relating to or dealing with exiles had a problem with the ANC.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That is right, Mr Chairman. I'll actually just leave that. Just one other aspect that I'd like to take up. Now Mr Dlongwane, in short, I don't think it is necessary to go into any further detail. My instructions from my clients are that when you allege - by the way, before I say that, I'd just like to mention to you, there were different codes for informers in the Security Branch of the then period when you allege you were an informer and my instructions are that there were four basic codes. The first code would be OPZ which referred to somebody who was watching the coast, walking up and down, like some of the people were dropped with submarines, watching that, the other informers were OPG, which was informers that were giving evidence per incident, they weren't regular informers. Then there was just a normal OP informer, which is a person which is on the management of infiltrated organisations and then there were RS informers, which were South African Police members, who infiltrated organisations and who would work under cover. Now unfortunately the number you give to us as 446/80 was never used at all by the Security Police according to my instructions, and I'm putting that to you.

MR DLONGWANE: I disagree with you and the person who gave me the number 1980, he died, Sgt Mosane and I still swear in this house that I was given the number 446/80.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Until when did you report to Sgt Mosane? For how long did you report to him? How long was he your handler?

MR DLONGWANE: That was 1980.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Till when?

MR DLONGWANE: That was that period of 1980 because 1981 I was in prison.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr van der Merwe.

MR DLONGWANE: And then he died.

ADV SANDI: If I can just ask. What were you supposed to do with this number? What was it for?

MR DLONGWANE: It was my code. My codename. My codename was 446.80 and if then sometimes they talked to each other, they won't mention my code, but they will call me a "bron".

ADV SANDI: But if you come there, if you come to the Sanlam building offices, they're all going to see you, didn't they know you?

MR DLONGWANE: Ja.

ADV SANDI: I mean how did they refer to you when they talked to you when you came to the offices?

MR DLONGWANE: There was a security gate, then if then maybe I want to see Tongatha, or I want to see Niewoudt, whoever I want to see, maybe I'm meeting a person whom I do not deal with, and then that person will shout and say, "Niewoudt, ...(indistinct) jou bron is hierso by die hek."

MR VAN DER MERWE: Sorry, Mr Chair. May I just put it to you that nowhere in your application did you ever say that Niewoudt, Roelofse or Tongatha was your handler. You used the term handler with reference to Mosane, is that right? Or Faku. You referred to Faku as your handler at one stage.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, it's true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: But you, nowhere in your application have said that Niewoudt, Roelofse or Tongatha was your handler. Am I right?

MR DLONGWANE: Tongatha ...(intervention)

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, no, I'm asking. You nowhere mention this in your application.

MR DLONGWANE: I said it that very sober, because Niewoudt and Roelofse, they were the senior people, who would instruct the Sergeants ...

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Dlongwane ...

MR DLONGWANE: And those Sergeants, they were the people that were interacting with me.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Listen to my question please. From page 1 or page 2 up to page 36 of this application, at no stage do you refer to Niewoudt, Roelofse or Tongatha as your handler. I am right when I'm saying that, I know that. Do you confirm that?

MR DLONGWANE: I still continue to say I worked for them because all the reports will be going to them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: It's a simple question.

MR DLONGWANE: They were my bosses.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you ever refer to them as your handlers in this application, Sir? No.

MR DLONGWANE: I may mention the fact that a person whom I've been interacting with was Faku, being handled by Faku, but my bosses were Niewoudt and Roelofse.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Are you going to answer my question? Did you refer to any of them as your handler in this application?

MR DLONGWANE: I referred that they were my bosses.

MR VAN DER MERWE: It's very simple Mr Dlongwane. Did you refer to any of them as your handler in this application?

MR DLONGWANE: At that time I could not regard them as my handlers, but my bosses.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So today you can regard them as your handlers?

MR DLONGWANE: And I still say at that time, because I am not working with them presently.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I should hope so, they're not in the police any more. Mr Dlongwane, your application falls fairly short of the truth and my instructions are that neither Mr Niewoudt or Mr Roelofse had any direct dealings with you, they deny that they gave you instructions to attack or petrol bomb houses of members of the UDF and that should you have been involved in acts like that, you were on a frolic of your own. Do you have any reaction to that?

MR DLONGWANE: I do not agree with them when they deny their involvement in the bombings and the instructions.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You see, I need to share this with you. They applied, or not they, Mr Niewoudt applied for various serious matter, some of which amnesty was granted to him and some of which was refused, these would have been a picnic for him to apply for amnesty and he did not apply for them, so I'm telling you he was not involved there.

MR DLONGWANE: I think the reason why he didn't apply, he thought maybe I died, but I'm back.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I hope you're sure that it's you that's back, Mr Dlongwane. I have no further questions.

MS THABETHE: No question.

MR FROST: No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, this Mr Butler Tongatha, was he the one that was sentenced to a term of imprisonment about ten years ago for amongst other things, defeating the ends of justice. They killed children at a school and planted stones in a vehicle.

MR DLONGWANE: Yes, actually I read about it while I was in Jo'burg at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it that same Butler?

MR DLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where's he today?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't have any idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he still in the police force?

MR DLONGWANE: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: One last question that troubles me. You said you wanted to be free in this country. Please explain to me how you were going to be free when you supported the apartheid system.

MR DLONGWANE: Since I said from the onset that I was in a situation where I had then to betray my principles and for betraying my principles, as I'm sitting here, I regret.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about that, you've said all that already. I'm just trying to understand how you thought you're going to be free in your life by opting to support Security Branch and the apartheid system. It confuses me, that. You don't know also?

MR DLONGWANE: This question is difficult for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I also find it difficult. Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Frost are there any other witnesses?

MR FROST: There are no other witnesses, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any witnesses?

MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, just very briefly. Mrs Hashe only, sorry Mrs Gcina only, regarding that court incident.

CHAIRPERSON: How long are you going to take, otherwise we can do it tomorrow.

MR NYOKA: It's going to take 3 minutes only.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure?

MR NYOKA: Ja, sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Only her?

MR NYOKA: Only her only.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Is she going to take the oath? Mr Nyoka, is she going to take the oath?

IVY GCINA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Mrs Gcina, can you please tell us briefly what happened in court when there was the trial of Mr Mtatsi and Kolo Makapela and others. What did you witness, very briefly? You heard the applicant denying that he boasted in the corridors. Can you tell the Committee and the audience?

MRS GCINA: On the day when we were in court, this young man came and I did not know him. When he was amongst the people he said: "I'm wearing a tracksuit and training shoes, new tracksuit and new training shoes. Do you think that I'm going to leave these boers because they're also buying a bottle of brandy for me?", but Chairperson, even so we as the people who were affected by these things that he was doing to us, we do forgive him because these boers were using the people and they would then dump them, especially if they are telling the truth. We do not have a problem, because these are our children, these are our people. Our hearts as parents are sore. We forgive him. Thank you Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: That is all, Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FROST: May I just be granted a moment? The applicant informs me that although he previously denied making those comments in the passages of the court, he says that he denies it on the basis that he cannot remember of recall that he said that to you.

MRS GCINA: Thank you Chairperson. I'm really glad if he recalls his mind about that because really I can never, ever tell a lie about a person, but I was present and I just walked away when he spoke like that, but even so, we forgive him, because really we knew that the system of that has used our people and we will be very proud if he can really speak openly, freely, then to anybody, to anybody, even the people who are denying that they worked with him. We need everyone on this earth to come forward and say we are done, one, two, three. Chairperson, we've got lots of people who disappeared in this country which we knew very well, we don't even know their graves today. Thank you.

MR FROST: I have no further questions.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I have no questions, thank you Chair.

MS THABETHE: No questions.

NO QUESTION BY MS THABETHE

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Frost, just for my own benefit. When the applicant was being questioned on this particular incident which happened in court, I thought he was categorically denying that such an incident had occurred. I now understand you to say that he does not recall such an incident having happened in court?

MR FROST: That is so, Mr Chair and Members of the Committee. He did categorically deny it in evidence, but he informs me that, he still denies having said it, he can't believe having said it, but he can't specifically recall. It's really a question of not being able to admit or deny.

ADV SANDI: I thought he went even further and said he could never have said such a thing. He could never have boasted that the police were providing him with this and that, he said it could never have happened.

MR FROST: Before I answer that, may I just take instructions? Mr Chair, Members of the Committee, the applicant says it may well be possible that he said something like that, but it is not something that he would have been proud of saying to a person at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank your Mrs Gcina.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other witnesses Mr Nyoka? Is that the end? Mr van der Merwe have you got any evidence?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, Mr Chairman, I have no further witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: So that's the end of the evidence. Mr Frost are you able to argue?

MR FROST: Yes, I am, Mr Chair.

MR FROST IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chair and Members of the Committee, I will be as brief as possible in argument. It's already been stated in terms of what and it's quite clear for what the applicant applies for amnesty for. He has testified, in his application, to the deeds he committed and for which he applies amnesty. He is the only witness that testified in relation thereto.

His relationship with Niewoudt and Roelofse is specifically denied by the representative, Mr van der Merwe, who represents Niewoudt and Roelofse, inter alia. However, those persons are not called as witnesses and its a mere denial by a legal representative, which carries little weight. The applicant has testified under oath.

The fact that he has lied on previous occasions under oath, he gave explanations as to why he had lied under oath on previous occasions. He specifically came to this Committee today to make amends, not only with himself, but also with the community and to ask for amnesty from this Committee for those deeds which he committed.

It is also so that he was recruited at a very young, or at a young age. He was politically involved in the struggle with organisations before he was recruited. There is nothing inherently improbable about the fact that he was recruited and the fact that he worked for the Security Police. Whether or not he was instructed specifically by Niewoudt or Roelofse, it is my submission, is not as such relevant. The relevant fact for which he applies amnesty, is that he committed those crimes during those periods, specifically bombing the houses of members and then also giving false testimony in the trial of Mr Mtatsi.

He was indoctrinated during that period of time. I don't believe that there is any reason to disbelieve his evidence in that regard, that he was part of an indoctrination, that he believe what he was doing was right, that there was a certain amount of propaganda that made him believe that fighting for apartheid was better than fighting for the struggle.

It might be difficult to understand why, after one detention, he submitted to the Security Police and started assisting them. He has concede that much that money played a role but it wasn't the major role. His principles let him down and it is not something he's proud of. It is also my submission that it was quite clear that even up until today, he is shy to as such, or embarrassed to admit that his principles let him down, specifically with the statement that was put to him that he made certain comments in the corridors of the court, having been a police informer.

It is quite apparent and this I want to submit in favour of the applicant, that Mrs Gcina's evidence supports the fact that he was an informer. If anything, that is objective support of the fact that the applicant was a police informer at that stage, so it's my respectful submission that he hasn't come to this court and has made up a story as to being a police informer. The issue that was made about his informer number, Niewoudt and Roelofse haven't come to testify to say that wasn't, or it's improbable, it was never an informer's number, or he was never and informer and they don't specifically deny that he was an informer in any event.

Insofar as the Act is concerned, his application falls within Section 20 (2)(b) read together with (f) and (g) in that he was employed by the State, or at least he believed that he was employed by an organisation of the State and furthered their objectives. He had reasonable grounds to believe that, I would further submit on his behalf and he thus squarely falls within the ambit of section 20(2) of the Act.

Insofar as (3) is concerned, that whether a particular act, omission, or offence, contemplated in (2) is an act associated with a political objective, certain criteria exists. First of all, if we look at the motive with which a person committed the act, his motive was not only monetary, he specifically stated that it was also politically motivated, through the propaganda of the Security Police and that he believed at that time, that to be the correct option. Now his evidence has also been that after he was recruited, he was in fact imprisoned for a period of time, for a number of months whereafter he then took up employment at a private company and he was thereafter re-recruited to the Security Police Services, clearly showing that he was, with respect, indoctrinated and that the propaganda had succumb him. He had a job in a private company and his choice is, with respect, indicative that of someone which has succumbed to the propaganda of a particular organisation, the Security Police, who were fighting for apartheid at that stage.

The context in which his act is submitted, was during the course of political uprising, the petrol bombing of houses. Although that in its own might not have brought down a political organisation, the person that were targeted were prominent persons and he believed that that would contribute to the political objective of the apartheid regime at that stage, when committing those acts and then also when testifying falsely against Mr Mtatsi. Whether or not he was the only witness who testified against Mr Mtatsi is not relevant. The other persons who testified, what their positions were, might well have been very similar to that of the applicant and no negative inference can be drawn from that fact that he was not the only witness that testified.

The nature of the acts that he committed were serious, petrol bombing the houses of persons and then also committing perjury, more specifically not only serious, but very sad that someone had to go to prison for the fact that someone gave false testimony against him, being Mr Mtatsi and other members, but once again, that was done with the same political objective as testified to by the applicant as to which he had committed the other acts inter alia the petrol bombing of houses of certain members of political parties.

The acts were also committed in the execution of orders. The petrol bombing of the different houses was in the execution of orders. The applicant associated himself with those petrol bombings, as he's testified to. He was an informer but the fact of the matter is, he was taken with for whatever reason. He was and he contributed actively to some of the petrol bombings in particular houses for which he applies amnesty and the others in which he did not actively partake, where he sat in the kombi. The fact of the matter is, he associated himself actively with that. He could very easily have come to this Committee and said: "Well I was in the kombi on those occasions, I didn't actively associate myself with those acts, only when I actually got out of the kombi and I threw a petrol bomb, am I applying for amnesty."

The aspect of a relationship between the act or the offence that was committed and the political objective pursued by the applicant, was the same political objective that was propagated to him by the Security Police. It is quite clear that it's not only Niewoudt and Roelofse that were involved here. He was recruited in 1980 and that the propaganda started at or during 1980 and not only when Niewoudt and Roelofse arrived on the scene. It might have been something trivial to them, in light of the atrocities that they have allegedly committed, as their legal representative put, that this was something minor and had they thought of it as any importance, they would have applied for amnesty, but the applicant feels that it is something of serious nature and therefore he applies for amnesty and has come to tell the truth, both to this Committee and to the public and to the members and families that were involved in those petrol bombings and then also then to Mr Mtatsi.

It is also my submission that it can't be said that the applicant is a person that likes to tell lies and that he should therefore be disbelieved. He in fact has nothing really to gain from this application, there are no pending actions or criminal trials pending against him. He has merely come to this Committee to apply for atrocities which he committed for which he is not proud of and it is also my submission that his demeanour, the fact that he was in tears when he stated that he was sorry towards the families and the community for betraying them and betraying his own principles, that he has made a full disclosure and that he should be granted amnesty for the petrol bombings of the houses of the members as applied for and then also for committing perjury during the trial of Mr Mtatsi. Those are my submissions, Mr Chair and Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka, we don't need to hear you, so too with you Ms Thabethe. That's brings us to the end of the roll.

MS THABETHE: Certainly, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: This is likely to be the last hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to be held in Port Elizabeth. I wish to thank the persons who were responsible for seeing to our food and refreshments. I wish to thank the interpreters for the work they have done and the efficiency with which they completed their tasks. I want to thank the various representatives who have appeared before us and for their assistance.

To the people, the applicants, the victims and public that put their faith in the Commission, I wish to thank you most sincerely.

It has become quite clear as we have proceeded with these hearings, that the country needs to reconcile with its history. It seems in certain quarters that this has been resisted and in others, the climate is not conducive for reconciliation. We must though, through every possible measure, encourage the bringing together of all the people of South Africa at all times and not to resort to compartmentalising different groups of people like was done under the apartheid system. We are all people of South Africa and while at times it may be a bitter pill to swallow, we have to start somewhere. This part of the world has a wonderful tradition of non-racialism. It is something to be proud of. Let us lead from this area again.

On behalf of the Commission, we hope that life will improve for the people of this country, especially Eastern Cape and we hope that the Commission has, to some extent, helped you come to terms with the past, that it has contributed in no uncertain terms towards a brighter future. I thank you. The hearing is adjourned.

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