--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We are about to start the hearing. For the record, it's Thursday 5 October 2000. We are continuing with the hearings at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg in respect of the amnesty applications this morning of Mnguni, reference AM8076/97, Madonsela AM8093/97, Dlamini AM8088/97, Ngwenya AM8096/97, Vilakazi AM8094/97 and Tshabalala AM8097/97. The Panel is constituted as would be evident from the record. The Leader of Evidence is Ms Mtanga for this whole session. I am going to allow an opportunity to the legal representatives to place themselves on record, starting with the representative of the applicants.

MR RICHARD; Thank you Chairperson, I am Tony Richard of Johannesburg. I appear for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. On behalf of the victims.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. I'm On Nyawuza and I appear on behalf of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Mr Richard, do you want to proceed with the testimony?

MR RICHARD: I would like to proceed by calling - again I'm not going to call them in the strict order. The first applicant has no objection to taking the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

MR RICHARD: Your full names.

SIPO DAVID DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Richard.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, in and during the period 1985, 86, 87, where did you live?

MR DLAMINI: During that period of 85, 86, 87, I resided at Zakele in Standerton and that's where I was born.

MR RICHARD: Now did you sympathise with any political party or support any political party?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did sympathise with a political party, it was the UDF.

MR RICHARD: And at that stage, what was the UDF?

MR DLAMINI: The UDF was an organisation involved in fighting for the rights of black people, as we all know that political leaders like Nelson Mandela were imprisoned and people like Oliver Tambo were forced to exile. The UDF therefore campaigned for the release of such political leaders as well as leaders who were in exile, for them to return to South Africa to government, as they are doing now.

MR RICHARD: Now at page 14 of the bundle at paragraph 7(b), you state that you were an office bearer of the United Democratic Front. What office did you hold?

MR DLAMINI: At that time during 1985, 86, I was an organiser in the UDF. As time went on, I became a liaison officer because I would sometimes go liaise with attorneys who would represent our comrades who had been imprisoned.

MR RICHARD: Now if you look down to your right at the gentlemen sitting next to you, do you know the gentlemen, all of them?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Where do you know them from?

MR DLAMINI: I know them from Zakele in Standerton. We were all members of the UDF, involved in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Now in the papers there's mention made of an organisation known as the MG Pirates Soccer Club. What do you know about the MG Pirates Soccer Club?

MR DLAMINI: What I know about that organisation is that although they were a soccer team, they were also involved in killing our members.

MR RICHARD: Now who were the leaders of the MG Soccer Club? ...(indistinct - mike not on) name and number.

MR DLAMINI: I recall Alfie Mabuiya, Vusi, also known as Sanja as well as Mashaba who was also known as Sipo and others. These are the ones that I know.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember the name Whisky Lulu Louw?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: What was he in the Soccer Club?

MR DLAMINI: He was a player in the team as well as a leader in that organisation.

MR RICHARD: Now there's also another name, a certain Mr Masebuko, do you remember his name?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now, a Mr Mpila, do you remember his name?

MR DLAMINI: Mpila?

MR RICHARD: Yes. Spundla Mapila.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do. He was a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: And Mr Mabisi Mazizi?

MR DLAMINI: He was a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: And Mabuleka Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: He was also a supporter.

MR RICHARD: Esau Twala?

MR DLAMINI: He was also a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: And a Mr Bheki?

MR DLAMINI: What was his surname?

MR RICHARD: I don't know anything more, a certain Bheki. You don't remember?

MR DLAMINI: I am not in a position to say. Perhaps if you had the surname I could recall.

MR RICHARD: Now the names that you do remember, where do you remember them from?

MR DLAMINI: As a resident of Zakele, I knew them from the area, we were all members of the community.

MR RICHARD: Where did you grow up?

MR DLAMINI: I grew up in Zakele.

MR RICHARD: The people that I've mentioned, did they grow up in the same area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I believe so.

MR RICHARD: Now how old are you now?

MR DLAMINI: I'm 33.

MR RICHARD: And in 1985?

MR DLAMINI: I was 18.

MR RICHARD: So that means you and your co-applicants were at that time all young men?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we were all young men.

MR RICHARD: Now who did the MG Pirates Soccer Club support politically?

MR DLAMINI: From the situation that prevailed then, it appeared that they supported the structures of our Councillors as well as the previous Government, because they seemed to have the support of the police.

MR RICHARD: Now before we talk about the police supporting them, on what basis do you make the statement that they supported the councillors or associated themselves with the councillors?

MR DLAMINI: It is because when Mele Whisky Louw was attacked, he is the one who informed us that the police as well as the Councillors had promised them money as well as vehicles if they were to eliminate us, because we were seen as trouble makers in the township who perpetrated violence.

MR RICHARD: Now I know it's a long time ago, 15 years ago, what was planned to happen around Christmas 1985? What was special about that Christmas?

MR DLAMINI: In December 1985 a black Christmas was planned, that had been ...(indistinct) from the International Youth Congress which had been held at Wits University. That mandate was to cripple the Government which oppressed the black people then. One of those strategies would be to boycott shops, so that we do not buy from town.

MR RICHARD: What else were you going to do, besides boycott shops?

MR DLAMINI: We would also organise stay-aways.

MR RICHARD: Now when you use the word Councillors, who were councillors? What did they support? What did they stand for?

MR DLAMINI: At that time, during 1985, the Councillors associated very strongly with the then apartheid government.

MR RICHARD: And what was the attitude to the Councillors and the structures that they supported?

MR DLAMINI: The people regarded them as oppressors because sometimes we would organise rent boycotts whereby we would not pay rent because we did not know, we did not understand what that rent was for.

MR RICHARD: Now, in and during December 1985, did your organisation have offices anywhere?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we did have what I would call a satellite office at one of our comrade's home, who is also an applicant in this matter.

MR RICHARD: Now some time later in 1986, what was the relationship between your organisation and the football team?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, during the year 1986 after the Black - sorry, let me change my question altogether. What was the Councillors' and their supporters' attitude to the Black Christmas?

MR DLAMINI: They saw this as an inconvenience because Christmas was supposed to be a time of celebration. However, because of that organised or planned Black Christmas, we had requested that we do not celebrate that Christmas. Instead, we should involve ourselves in a show of solidarity as well as display to the then Government that we felt the oppression, as well as make that Government ungovernable.

MR RICHARD: And tell me, did everyone support your boycotts and stay-aways and protests?

MR DLAMINI: No. There were people who did not support us, people such as Councillors, as well as other people who regarded the struggle as something that took place or perhaps as something that happened only in Jo'burg and Cape Town.

MR RICHARD: Tell me, did the MG Pirates Soccer Team support the stay-aways, boycotts, protests, the demands for the resignations of the Councillors?

MR DLAMINI: Prior to the call for a consumer boycott, I would say everyone had supported us. However in December of 1985 we were confronted with a situation whereby a group of people attacked our homes as comrades, windows were broken, houses were damaged. On the 25th of December 1985 some of the criers and supporters from this MG Pirates Soccer Team, came to attack us after we had already been attacked by another group. That is when we realised that these people were no longer in support of our struggle.

MR RICHARD: On the 24th of December 86, did you receive any approach from the Soccer Team, or people associated with it?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR RICHARD: I beg pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: The date?

MR RICHARD: 24th of December 86.

MR DLAMINI: On that day, the 24th of December 1986, I was not at the scene, but I was a distance away looking on, when some officials from the MG approached our comrades to discuss the situation that prevailed at the township. It was planned that on the 25th of December, the following day, everyone would meet in Church to discuss, to have peace discussions.

MR RICHARD: What happened on the 25th?

MR DLAMINI: Because the relationship between us as comrades and the MG Pirates was not healthy, we expected to meet them and reconcile with them, so that we could carry on with the struggle because prior to the friction between us, we had all been together in the struggle. However, that did not happen. Instead what happened was that some of the players, as well as their supporters, came and attacked us to the extent that two of our comrades were killed, that is Joel Mputi and Bhumgame.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the people that were killed?

MR RICHARD: Mnguni, the two people who got killed.

CHAIRPERSON: What were the names?

MR DLAMINI: Joel Mputi.

CHAIRPERSON: Say again. Sorry, I can't hear properly, just say again.

MR DLAMINI: Joel.

CHAIRPERSON: Joel?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MR DLAMINI: And Bhumgame.

CHAIRPERSON: And Bongani?

MR DLAMINI: Bhumgame.

CHAIRPERSON: Bhumgame. So they are the two that got killed by the players of the MG Soccer Club?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, in December of 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: Where, in the Church, or where?

MR DLAMINI: No, they attacked at Bhumgame's home.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Sorry Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Not a problem.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Richard, can I just get clarity here? Didn't the meeting take place at all then?

MR DLAMINI: Not at all. We thought that we were going to attend the meeting that day, but instead we were attacked.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now do you remember the name Richard Twala?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: What happened to him?

MR DLAMINI: He's one of those who were killed by the supporters and the members of the MG Pirates. This happened in 1987.

MR RICHARD: Now the next question that I would want to ask is after these killings on 25 December 1986, what happened after their funerals? Was there a meeting of the UDF?

MR DLAMINI: After the funeral of the two comrades, we as ringleaders met to discuss the situation and we discussed our safety and we decided to fight back.

MR RICHARD: Now how were you going to fight back?

MR DLAMINI: We were going to attack and kill the same way as they killed our comrades. We decided to avenge their death.

MR RICHARD: Now, who were you going to attack? Were you going to attack anyone who supported the MG Soccer Team, or any particular people?

MR DLAMINI: We were going to attack those whom we perceived as ringleaders.

MR RICHARD: How were you selected as ringleaders?

MR DLAMINI: As I have indicated that we all grew up in Zakele, we knew one another. We knew them and we knew people who were aggressive in this whole conflict.

MR RICHARD: Forgive me, I'm not quite sure, when there was the attack which resulted in Bhumgame's death? Were you present? Did you see it?

MR DLAMINI: I was not present when Bhumgame was attacked, but I was in that neighbourhood.

MR RICHARD: Were there police in the neighbourhood at the time?

MR DLAMINI: What I saw was a Hippo, but because I was not on the side of Bhumgame's home, I cannot say whether they were present or not, but according to Vuma, from those who were present, they said police were present.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. I won't take that any further, I'll deal with it with other witnesses. Now to turn to the specifics. Were you part of the group that killed Lulu Louw?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, would you please tell us shortly, how did you come to meet up with Mr Louw that evening in August 1987?

ADV BOSMAN: Couldn't we, just for the record, get on record the date and the place of the incident and then we'll proceed from there?

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now Sir do you remember the killing of Mr Lulu Louw?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: When did it happen, do you remember the date?

MR DLAMINI: Even though I cannot recall the date, I think I can still recall the month, it was early in August.

MR RICHARD: Which year?

MR DLAMINI: 1987.

MR RICHARD: Now where did the killing take place?

MR DLAMINI: Lulu was attacked around Tutugane, but we found him at Zakele and then we took him to Tutugane.

MR RICHARD: Where in Zakele did you find him?

MR DLAMINI: We were on our way from New Denmark and entering the township and we were walking around some offices. We saw him crossing the road towards a coloured section. We don't know whether he had relatives there, or whether he used to stay there at some stage. We followed him and captured him at an Indian section.

MR RICHARD: Now when you use the word we, who was with you?

MR DLAMINI: The others in my company were Comrade Dodo, Sipo Ngwenya, Comrade Dida, the late Alfie, Comrade Conquer, Comrade Baza, the late, as well as the person who was driving the kombi.

MR RICHARD: Were you in fact looking for Mr Louw that evening?

MR DLAMINI: No, it was not in the evening, it was in the late morning. We were not looking for him, we were just on our way somewhere and we came across him. Knowing his job of attacking comrades, we dealt with him.

MR RICHARD: How did you deal with him?

MR DLAMINI: As I've explained, we followed him, we captured him next to an Indian section, we put him in the kombi and drove away with him. We were questioning him along the way. We wanted him to tell us why they were killing comrades and why they were killing our fellow brothers so mercilessly. What he said to us was that they had been promised something by the Councillors and the police, they had been promised some money as well as a kombi and a Soccer Club kit.

CHAIRPERSON: Who made those promises?

MR DLAMINI: He said they were promised by the Councillors and the Police.

CHAIRPERSON: The Councillors and the police. Thank you. Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, did he mention any Councillors or policemen by name?

MR DLAMINI: No, I cannot recall whether he mentioned any names.

MR RICHARD: Now once he made this confession to you, what did you and your group decide to do?

MR DLAMINI: We decided to kill him because they were killing us.

MR RICHARD: Now, who suggested that you kill him, was it you or one of the others?

MR DLAMINI: The situation in which we found ourselves at the time was such that we were duty bound to do what we did because we were in a war situation because if we didn't kill them, they would have killed us. We didn't have to wait for an instruction to kill.

MR RICHARD: Now, could you describe how he was killed?

MR DLAMINI: He was stabbed, beaten up and in the process he got loose and he ran away and jumped into a river and he had been injured at the time, but he was still alive and we decided that we should follow him into the river and finish him off right there. We got into the river and that's where we finished him off.

MR RICHARD: Who got into the river?

MR DLAMINI: Comrade Sipo Mnguni and comrade Alfie Makubo.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now we then move on to the next incident and that is one where a bus was attacked. Now you will recall when this bus attack happened.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Which year, which month, which day?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot recall the day, but the month was March 1987.

MR RICHARD: And where exactly did this attack take place?

MR DLAMINI: On the N3 freeway.

MR RICHARD: Where on the N3 freeway? Can you give us some landmark, some point of identification?

MR DLAMINI: That was next to the farms near Vosloo.

MR RICHARD: Now this bus, was it travelling to Standerton or from Standerton, or do you know where it was travelling, what it's destination was?

MR DLAMINI: The bus was en route to Standerton.

MR RICHARD: How did you know the bus would be there?

MR DLAMINI: These vigilantes were also a soccer team and a soccer fixture was published in the Sowetan and we got to know that they were going to play in Tokoza. Fortunately, because now the situation was very tense in the township, we had fled the township and we were now based at Tokoza, so we decided to wait for them at the stadium.

MR RICHARD: What happened at the stadium while you were waiting for them?

MR DLAMINI: We were not able to attack them at the stadium because the stadium was next to a school and there were soldiers deployed in that area of Tokoza.

MR RICHARD: Now when you say we couldn't attack them, who was with you?

MR DLAMINI: It was myself, Comrade Dida, Comrade Mandla, Comrade Alfie as well as another two comrades from Katlehong.

MR RICHARD: Now how did you know who was going to be in the bus?

MR DLAMINI: I have already explained that the soccer fixture indicated that they were going to be playing in Tokoza and any mention of MG Pirates made us believe that that was the group that was involved in killing comrades, so that all the people that we were seeking, including those that we had identified as ring leaders, would definitely be in the bus.

MR RICHARD: So you couldn't attack them at the stadium in Tokoza, so what was the next plan? What was the alternative?

MR DLAMINI: On failing to take them at the stadium at Tokoza, we decided to lay an ambush at the freeway and as we were laying an ambush, we would later use petrol bombs to attack the bus in which they were travelling.

MR RICHARD: Now, so that means when you planned the ambush, how did you plan to set it up?

MR DLAMINI: That happened so swiftly, we actually discussed it hastily. We discussed something to the fact that now that we have failed to attack one or even two of them at Tokoza, we should make sure that we give them some scars and to ensure that, we had to use petrol bombs.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did you stop the bus?

MR DLAMINI: We did not stop the bus. You see it was in summer and the grass was high and we were lying down there and as the bus approached we lit the petrol bombs and hurled them at the bus as it was approaching.

MR RICHARD: And what happened?

MR DLAMINI: And as we hit the bus with petrol bombs, some wanted to jump out of windows and it started skidding. It looked as if the driver was using control and it came to a halt and as it did so, they came out and started coming for us. We fled into the fields and we ended up at some houses at the farms and after a while there were police on the scene.

MR RICHARD: Was anyone killed?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR RICHARD: Did you attack any of the passengers after they got out of the bus?

MR DLAMINI: No, we fled.

MR RICHARD: Now did all of you in the group throw petrol bombs, or did only some of you?

MR DLAMINI: No, not all of us threw petrol bombs, only two petrol bombs were used to attack the bus.

MR RICHARD: Now, was a Sgt Meyer, who is now a Capt Meyer, connected with this incident in any way?

MR DLAMINI: I did not see Sgt Meyer in this bus incident.

MR RICHARD: Now there's a third incident and that was the killing of a Mr Masebuko, did you participate in that one?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: Were you part of the planning?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: Now during 1987 three vigilantes were killed and according to the papers there was Sipo Ngwenya and five others, do you know - were you part of that killing?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: Did you participate in the incident's planning?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: So that means you can tell us very little about it?

MR DLAMINI: Yes. I don't even think there's anything that I can tell you.

MR RICHARD: Now the killing of Mabisi Mazizi in August, were you part of that incident?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not part of that either.

MR RICHARD: Did you participate in its planning?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: And did you receive any report about it afterwards?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: And what were those reports? ...(end of tape)

MR RICHARD: I asked you at the beginning, did you know Mr Mabisi Mazizi and what was he?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he was a supporter of Eastern Pirates MG.

MR RICHARD: And then during March 1987, the 6th and last incident took place and that was Spundla Mapila was killed, were you part of that incident?

MR DLAMINI: Spundla was not killed, he was shot.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, my error, were you part of the incident?

MR DLAMINI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: During March 1987, Mr Spundla Mapila was shot at, were you part of the event? Were you present?

MR DLAMINI: Even though I was not present on the scene, but I was around.

MR RICHARD: What do you know about the event?

MR DLAMINI: What I know is that Spundla was shot on that day.

MR RICHARD: Were you active in the planning of the event?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now you and who else helped plan the shooting?

MR DLAMINI: Before I can come to that, I'd like to explain that we did not plan to attack him directly. We had planned to send one comrade to their section and he should kill anyone that he comes across.

MR RICHARD: Now who was, how would that person choose ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may he please repeat his answer?

MR DLAMINI: We did not specifically plan to kill Spundla per se, we had planned to send one comrade to their section and should he come across anyone among the identified ringleaders, he should kill them.

MR RICHARD: Now who was that person that you planned to send, or did send?

MR DLAMINI: We send Comrade Mandla Tshabalala.

MR RICHARD: Now did Mandla Tshabalala know who the ringleaders were?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he knew them.

MR RICHARD: Now who was Spundla Mapila, what was he?

MR DLAMINI: Spundla Mapila was a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: Was he a leader?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he was in cahoots with the leaders.

MR RICHARD: Now in the papers you make mention of the name Mandla Dlamini. What was Mandla Dlamini in the UDF?

MR DLAMINI: Mandla Dlamini is one person whom we used to meet at Khotso House. He's one person who used to take notes as we were making a report, reporting about the township situation and he's the one who would get in contact with the lawyers at ...(indistinct) House.

MR RICHARD: Now, tell me, did ANC leaders ever visit you in Standerton, Mrs Mandela, or people of her profile?

MR DLAMINI: Which time are you referring to? Are you referring to the time then or now?

MR RICHARD: During 1987.

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ever get instructions from anyone at Khotso House?

MR DLAMINI: No, no one gave us instructions at Khotso House, not even among the UDF leaders, not the leaders of the African National Congress, no one gave us orders that we should kill.

MR RICHARD: So it was up to you to work out how you would carry out your plan of action?

MR DLAMINI: The situation in which we found ourselves prompted what action we should take.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Yes Mr Nyawuza, any questions?

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. Yes, only a few questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, my instructions are not to oppose your amnesty but to get to the nitty gritties of what happened at the time. I'm going to be very brief and specific in my questioning to you. Firstly, I would wish to, you know, to get the activities of the deceased, who is Whisky Lulu Louw because you've been very inclusive in describing that he was part and parcel of the people. What is it that he specifically did at the time that made you attach him to being in contradiction of what you were fighting for at the time?

MR DLAMINI: Lulu Whisky Lulu Louw was a player as well as a supporter of Eastern Pirates MG. What prompted us to kill him was that he as well as other players and supporters, were involved in killing our comrades.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, in which killing were they involved? Mention names. Mention the names of the comrades that Whisky specifically was involved in, that is what we need to hear today.

MR DLAMINI: The killing of Comrade Joel and Bhumgame, I believe that he was present there.

MR NYAWUZA: You believed, did you see him?

MR DLAMINI: I did not see him. As I explained before, when Comrade Bhumgame and Joel were attacked, I was not present at the scene, but I was in the neighbourhood.

MR NYAWUZA: Now Mr Dlamini, you would agree with me when I say you can't with certainty say he was involved, you were told.

MR DLAMINI: I would like to explain that the situation under which we lived prompted me to believe that he was present because that was their job as MG Pirates, to attack comrades.

MR NYAWUZA: So Mr Dlamini, you would agree with me when I say you can't with certainty say he was involved, you were told. Mr Dlamini, I acknowledge the situation at the time and I think you'll agree with me that when Spundla was shot, Spundla thought that it was Dida and apparently Dida was convicted for five years for that offence, but your testimony today and the application of one of the applicants, speaks of a different person, do you agree with that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it was not Mr Twala who attacked Spundla.

MR NYAWUZA: Dida was in Tsakane, is that so?

MR DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: I'll go back to my question, Mr Dlamini. Mr Dlamini, I am saying to you, you can't with certainty say Lulu Louw was involved in the killing of Bhumgame and the other chap because you were not there. You might have been in Tsakane as Dida was in Tsakane at the time.

MR DLAMINI: Sir, may as well claim that now, however, the conditions that prevailed then, such conditions under which we and other comrades suffered, prompt me to say Lulu Louw was present and he was capable of doing that.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini in as much as Spundla was sure that Dida was capable of doing that, Dida didn't do it, he was in Tsakane, so the same might have happened in Lulu's case, would you agree with me? I'm aware that Lulu was capable of doing it but would you agree with me that you can't with certainty say Lulu was involved?

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, Mr Dlamini, just to cut this debate because you're not really disagreeing, the two of you. All that Mr Nyawuza is saying? You don't here me? Now you must hear the interpreter, you mustn't hear me. Do you hear the interpreter?

MR DLAMINI: Can you talk now?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear the interpreter? Okay good. I want to just indicate to you that there's no disagreement between you and Mr Nyawuza, I don't want you to debate this thing the whole time. What Mr Nyawuza is saying is that you and you say that too, you didn't see it with your eyes, but you believed that to be the case. Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So I don't think you disagree with each other. Mr Nyawuza.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, besides Bhumgame and the other chap's incident, in what other incident was Lulu involved?

MR DLAMINI: The same soccer team was also responsible for killing other comrades, people like ...(indistinct) Nkosi and Richard Twala. They would do this as a group, as a team and they would be in the company of their supporters as well. What I believe is that although I did not see him, he would not stay away and exclude himself from his colleagues when they went out to partake in whatever activities.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, were all players of Pirates and supporters of Pirates involved in this thing or was it some of the players and/or some of the supporters?

MR DLAMINI: From what we used to see, we used to see them armed, so I would say all of them, because they were ...(indistinct) and armed, under such circumstances you are not even able to identify a person's face, you just see a group of people.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, was Aubrey Mabola involved in the attacks on the comrades?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he did play a role.

MR NYAWUZA: And when was that? In which incident?

MR DLAMINI: On the day that comrade Bhumgame and Joel were killed, the person who inquired from Bhumgame's mother about their whereabouts, was Aubrey. That information we received from Bhumgame's mother, that is what leads me to believe that he was also present.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, it's my instructions from Mr Aubrey Mabola that in fact the opposite happens to be the truth. He did not at all partake in the attack on the comrades, he was one of the comrades and in fact he also had been detained at some stage during the turmoil in your township at Zakele, what's your comment on that?

MR DLAMINI: What I can say is that ...(indistinct) in a crowd, it is true that he had previously been a comrade, but however he betrayed that cause and became one of the opposition.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, when you attacked the bus on the N3 highway, how many were you in number?

MR DLAMINI: We were six.

MR DLAMINI: And you attacked with two petrol bombs, if I heard your testimony correctly.

MR DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: Who had the petrol bombs amongst the six of you?

MR DLAMINI: One was carried by Comrade Alfie and a comrade from Spruit had the other bomb. I cannot recall the comrade's name.

MR NYAWUZA: The rest of you were onlookers, you were only going to help in the running away from the supporters and the players, is that so?

MR DLAMINI: We were not onlookers because due to time pressure that we operated under, we just had to tear off our shirts to construct the bomb, so that one person held the bottle and I lit the match, I lit the cloth and the same happened with the other bomb, so I cannot say that we were onlookers.

MR NYAWUZA: That is what we want to hear, your role in the attack. That's what we wanted to hear. You wanted to say something, Mr Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: What I did was to set the petrol bomb alight so that the comrade could throw it at the bus.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, if I follow your testimony correctly, this picture appeared in the Sowetan, if I heard your testimony correctly and you knew before hand that these people will be travelling to Tokoza and my feeling is that you planned to attack them and now in cross-examination you advise us that there were time constraints in the attack, that is why you had to use two petrol bombs. What attack in mind, what mode of attack did you have in mind when you saw this in the Sowetan? What is it that you planned you were going to do?

MR DLAMINI: We had planned to get at least two of them in Tokoza, that is where they would be attacked and killed, so that when they returned to Standerton, some would be missing.

MR NYAWUZA: How were you going to do that?

MR DLAMINI: We would capture that person and kill him.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, these people are a group, there's 11 players, there's about 4 substitutes, there's the coach, the ...(indistinct), the secretary and the supporters, how were you going to get one out of the whole group when there were only 6 of you?

MR DLAMINI: We took it as even if they were a group, some of them would perhaps go their own direction, perhaps go to a shebeen or perhaps go buy something from a shop and that would be our opportunity to get them.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, would you agree with me when I say that unfortunately some people that were supporters of Pirates, were caught in the cross-fire even though they did not support what the majority of Pirates, players and supporters, did to the comrades, would you agree with me on that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I would agree because even on our own side, we have players with brothers who were not comrades, but they were targeted and victimised day and night.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, at some stage in your evidence-in-chief, you referred to - in fact when my Learned Colleague was asking you about the attack on Spundla, you referred to your comrades having planned that one of you will go to a section of the MG supporters. Was this conflict between yourselves divided on sections?

MR DLAMINI: Most MG supporters resided in one section. I would say that yes, we were demarcated by sections because we resided mostly in Jabavu and Roets, whereas they resided as Simendeni.

MR NYAWUZA: How many sections do you have in Zakele? We want to get a broader picture.

MR DLAMINI: At that time, there were about 7 if I'm not mistaken.

MR NYAWUZA: ...(indistinct), Mr Dlamini, just give us the names of the sections.

MR DLAMINI: Yes

MR DLAMINI: Simendeni, Cement, Jabavu, Moroka, Eleven, Kumalabanti, Dloss, Mklashe, Palama.

MR NYAWUZA: So in what section were Pirate supporters and players resident?

MR DLAMINI: At Simendeni.

MR NYAWUZA: And in what section were the comrades mostly resident?

MR DLAMINI: Mostly they resided at Dloss.

MR NYAWUZA: Didn't you have comrades in Jabavu?

MR DLAMINI: I resided at Jabavu.

MR NYAWUZA: And didn't you have comrades at Simendeni?

MR DLAMINI: There were some.

MR NYAWUZA: And didn't you have Pirate supporters in Jabavu and at Dloss?

MR DLAMINI: There were some.

MR NYAWUZA: Were the Pirate supporters who were resident at Jabavu and Dloss attacked? Were they attacked at any stage, no on a particular day?

MR DLAMINI: You mean collecting them from their homes, we did not do that.

MR NYAWUZA: But were they attacked any way, any way, let's say in Jabavu, did you go to where they were resident and attack them?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR NYAWUZA: So are you in essence saying they went along with what the comrades were fighting for at the time?

MR DLAMINI: No, they did not. What used to happen was that regardless of where you resided, in most instances they would be found at Simendeni and that is where the majority of their supporters resided.

MR NYAWUZA: No further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Mtanga, questions?

MS MTANGA: I have one question, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ma'am.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Dlamini, when you decided to attack the bus on the freeway, did it occur to you that there may be people who were just supporters of the MG Pirates Football Club who were not necessarily against the UDF?

MR DLAMINI: I would say that did not occur to me.

MR MOSIANE: What did occur to you? What did you think of the people who were inside the bus?

MR DLAMINI: What occurred to me about those people in the bus was that should they find me, they would kill me, therefore if I had an opportunity, I should do the same before they find me.

MS MTANGA: I have no other questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Just a few, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Dlamini, did I understand the evidence correctly that you were involved in rent boycotts, boycotts of businesses and stay-aways? Those are the three actions that you took, you group. Then you refer to ringleaders. Were you regarded as a leader, or as one of the ringleaders of the comrades?

MR DLAMINI: I was one of the leaders.

ADV BOSMAN: When you refer to vigilantes, I'm not quite sure what you meant by that. Who did you regard as vigilantes?

MR DLAMINI: People like Aubrey Spundla, as well as the rest of the victims ...

ADV BOSMAN: What do you understand under the term vigilante, you personally? Why did you see them as vigilantes?

MR DLAMINI: During those times vigilantes were people who associated with the previous government in eliminating political activists.

ADV BOSMAN: Now just the last question. In regard to the killing of Mazizi, your evidence was that you were not part of the incident or the planning, you only received the report that he was killed. Did you approve of this?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And you did not report this killing to anybody, to the police for instance? You did not report the killing, you approved of it and you associated yourself with the killing.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I associated myself with that act.

ADV BOSMAN: You were never charged in connection with any of these incidents that you have testified about throughout?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not charged and that is because I fled. I always fled from the police.

ADV BOSMAN; You came forward willingly and of your own accord to bring this amnesty application?

MR DLAMINI: Nobody coerced me to come forward, as we all know about the promotion of National reconciliation. When the Chairperson of the TRC made public the process, he indicated that everyone who had been involved in the commission of gross human rights violations for political reasons should come forward to state their case, so that nation that had been divided by the previous government, should be able to reconcile, because the previous government was responsible for much of the division even amongst ourselves as black people.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct - mike not on) answered my question. I wanted to know whether there was any prosecution or whether you came forward and you've answered that. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: With regard to the bus, when you threw the hand grenades as a group, was the bus stationery or moving and if it was moving, how fast was it going?

MR DLAMINI: I am not in a position to say whether the bus was moving at a high speed, but after the incident I learned that it was actually a steep hill.

MR RICHARD: In other words, to throw the petrol bombs you had to be very quick.

MR DLAMINI: Definitely.

MR RICHARD: Now the UDF's leadership, in your area did you have a Chairperson, did you have a secretary, treasurer?

MR DLAMINI: What I can state was that no one was formally elected into a position but anybody amongst the comrades could be identified and co-opted into a position.

MR RICHARD: Now would do the co-option? Who would decide who would have a position? Did you have a committee?

MR DLAMINI: We knew one another very well, so we were aware of our individual strengths, so that for instance if we needed something organised, we would identify somebody or we would approach somebody we knew was capable of carrying out that responsibility.

MR DLAMINI: Mr ...(indistinct) had an office, what was his office?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the surname?

MR RICHARD: Mr Madonsela? Toto Madonsela.

MR DLAMINI: It was not his office per se, but it was a UDF office which we used to plan as well as to carry out other activities of the organisation.

MR RICHARD: Sorry interpreter, when I said the word office, I meant position, like Chairperson, Secretary, function not premises.

INTERPRETER: Oh, I beg your pardon.

MR DLAMINI: We used to call him Chief of Staff but it was not a position that he had been elected into, it was just a nickname given to him in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dlamini, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment of 15 minutes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, could you just give us an indication in respect of the applicants, has any one of them been charged with regard to this incident, or are they all in the same position of Mr Dlamini?

MR RICHARD: All are in the same position. One of the applicants is in prison for another incident.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: ...they haven't been charged, they came forward voluntarily to apply? Very well. Who's the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: Thank you. The next applicant is Mr Toto Madonsela.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------PHILIP TOTO MADONSELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. Thank you Mr Madonsela.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Madonsela, you heard Mr Dlamini's evidence and did you pay attention to what he said?

MR MADONSELA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now do you confirm what he said?

MR MADONSELA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Do you confirm that in and during the period 1985, 86, 87 you were all part of the UDF?

MR MADONSELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now you heard Mr Dlamini describe what was planned for Christmas 1985.

MR MADONSELA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What was the relationship after Christmas 1985, through 1986 into 1987 between the UDF and the Councillors and those who supported the Councillors?

MR MADONSELA: The relationship worsened from the time of Black Christmas in 1995, from then right up to 1987.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now you've heard him describe that certain people were killed on the 25th of December 1986, who were those people?

MR MADONSELA: People who were killed that day were Bhumgame Radebe and Comrade Joel Mputi.

MR RICHARD: Now what organisation did these two deceased people belong to?

MR MADONSELA: They were members of the UDF.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, where were you when they were killed?

MR MADONSELA: I was present. I was in the company of Comrade Gideon Gumede. I came across this group that one particular morning, I mean the Eastern Pirates MG group and when we came across these people, they stopped us and requested for some cigarette light and we did so, after which somebody who was behind me had produced a sword or a panga and the other ones asked for some cigarettes and the other one tripped me and as I was lying down, they came running, actually some of them came running and the ones who were with me started assaulting me, but fortunately I managed to escape and I fled.

MR RICHARD: Now did you see the two people being killed, or had you run away by then?

MR MADONSELA: No, I did not see them, I had fled already.

MR RICHARD: Were there police in the area at the time?

MR MADONSELA: I did not see the police at the time of my being attacked, but I heard this.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now ...

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may he please repeat his answer?

MR MADONSELA: I heard from my brother who survived the incident, he said he escaped from the house where they were being attacked and he ran into a police van, being pursued and being attacked by these people.

MR RICHARD: But you never saw it personally?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Now I'm going to give you a collection of names one by one, Whisky Lulu Louw, did you know him?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I know him.

MR RICHARD: For how long?

MR MADONSELA: Not for a very long time.

MR RICHARD: Where did he live?

MR MADONSELA: I was not quite sure whether he stayed at Sharpeville, or Simondale, one of the two, but yes, I knew him.

MR RICHARD: Now did he support a political organisation or was he a member of any political organisation?

MR MADONSELA: No, he was not political, he was a member of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: What function did he perform there? Was he a leader, or Chairperson, or a Captain, or just an ordinary member?

MR MADONSELA: What I know is that he was a member of the club.

MR RICHARD: Now, then there were other people like a Mr Masebuko, do you know him?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, I'm sorry to interrupt, don't you want to just complete the picture around Mr Louw? Do you want to know whether the applicant participated, whether he associated himself with this?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, I'll deal with that now.

CHAIRPERSON: Finish it off and then we go to the next one, because at this stage, much is really common cause.

MR RICHARD: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So we can actually speed it up a bit.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, were you party to the killing of Mr Louw?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I was part of that killing.

MR RICHARD: Now why did you and the people in your group decide to kill Mr Louw?

MR MADONSELA: We decided to kill him because he was part of the soccer team and that he was one of the people who attacked our brothers, including myself.

MR RICHARD: Now, when did he attack you?

MR MADONSELA: He was attacked when I was being accompanied by my brother on December the 25th in the morning and Louw was part of the group that attacked me.

MR RICHARD: What did he do in that attack?

MR MADONSELA: And I indicated that after I had fallen down, they continued hacking me. I got injured in the head and the body and he was part of the group that was attacking me.

MR RICHARD: Did he have a panga, or a stick, or did he throw stones or have firearms?

MR MADONSELA: No, he had a knife in his possession.

MR RICHARD: And what did he do with the knife?

MR MADONSELA: He stabbed me.

MR RICHARD: Now did he stab you once or more times?

MR MADONSELA: God was on my side. I only got a few stab wounds in the attack.

MR RICHARD: And were they all inflicted by Mr Louw, or did others also stab you?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, there were others who stabbed me, not only Mr Louw.

MR RICHARD: How many others can you identify? Can you give us their names?

MR MADONSELA: Yes. Roadblock, Damane, Mashaba, Kaiser, Tuwa and several others.

MR RICHARD: Now, did they belong to any other organisation and if so, what was its name?

MR MADONSELA: They were members of Eastern MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: Now after you had been assaulted and stabbed and they tried to murder you, did you go to the police?

MR MADONSELA: I did not because on that day after receiving the news that my fellow brothers were killed in front of the police, I concluded that the police were in cahoots with this group, but yes, my parents did go to the police to report the matter.

MR RICHARD: Did you give your parents the list of names that you've given us?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Did the police every prosecute any of those people that you named, including Mr Louw?

MR MADONSELA: They did not.

MR RICHARD: Now shortly after that Boxing Day attack, early that January there was a meeting of the UDF, were you present?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I was present.

MR RICHARD: And were all your co-applicants, except those who couldn't attend because they were injured, present as well?

MR MADONSELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, at that meeting, various decision were made, amongst them that you would now defend yourselves and do various other things. Would you tell us what those decisions were?

MR MADONSELA: The decisions that were taken to the effect that we should defend ourselves were as a result of our conclusion that the police were trafficking with MG Pirates and they were responsible for the attacks. Decisions that were taken were that we should attack them the same way as they were attacking us.

MR RICHARD: Now you were party to the killing, as you've just told us, of Mr Louw in August 1987. Do you remember exactly what day that was?

MR MADONSELA: No, I cannot recall the day or the date, but yes, I do recall that it was in August 1987.

MR RICHARD: What time of the day?

MR MADONSELA: It was in the late afternoon, I'm sorry, in the late morning.

MR RICHARD: Now you heard what Mr Dlamini said. Do you confirm what he said and that is that you found Mr Louw walking in the area and then decided to give chase and to attack him, do you confirm what he said?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I confirm that.

MR RICHARD: Is there anything you want to add, or explain or change about what he said?

MR MADONSELA: No. Mr Dlamini has already explained everything that happened that day.

MR RICHARD: Did you personally stab Mr Louw?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: And were you one of those that followed him into the river or dam?

MR MADONSELA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now I move on to the next incident and that's ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, just before you move on to the next incident, can I just ask Mr Madonsela, on the day these people were attacking yourself, your brother and your other comrades, did they give you any reason why they were attacking you? Did they say anything, or did they just attack you without saying anything?

MR MADONSELA: No reason was given.

ADV SANDI: Did they say anything, did they talk?

MR MADONSELA: They did not say anything, the only conversation was when there was this request for some light and cigarette and after that they started attacking.

MR RICHARD: Why do you think they attacked you?

MR MADONSELA: We had already indicated earlier on that the relationship between the comrades and these MG Soccer people was strained, so that lead to them attacking me.

MR RICHARD: Were there other attacks on other dates and other places on the comrades by the soccer team?

MR MADONSELA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: How many other attacks?

MR MADONSELA: Mr Dlamini, who was in the company of Mr Bhumgame Radebe, was attacked and in another incident comrade Tisha was attacked and I was also attacked in that incident, in that separate incident.

MR RICHARD: And to repeat the Committee's question, did they ever explain to you their reasons for attacking you?

MR MADONSELA: No reasons were given for the attack.

MR RICHARD: Now, in the process of the consumer boycotts, the stay-aways and that protest activity, what did the supporters and members of the Eastern MG Pirates Soccer Club do? Did they come and interfere with your boycotts or did they come and participate?

MR MADONSELA: They did not support us, save to say things like: "Why don't we go and burn the town?" and "Why shouldn't we go and find in town?" and "Why should we engage in boycotts that affected blacks?", but our understanding was that we had to engage in stay-aways and boycotts to affect the Government.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now we'll proceed on. You heard what Mr Dlamini said about the attack on the bus and the fact that some of you went to Tokoza to the stadium, is that correct?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now how many of you went to Tokoza?

MR MADONSELA: There were 6 of us who went to Tokoza.

MR RICHARD: Now what did you plan to do while in Tokoza?

MR MADONSELA: We had planned that we were going to get some of the MG Pirates members. We intended to capture one or two of them, kill them, to send a message to the effect that what they did to us is a bad thing.

MR RICHARD: So where would you kill them? Would you kill them there near the stadium, or would you abduct them?

MR MADONSELA: We had planned that should we see one of them wondering around, we would capture that person and kill him.

MR RICHARD: Now when you say if you saw one of them wondering around, did it matter which one, or what position that one person had in the Soccer Club?

MR MADONSELA: What we knew was that out of the people who were behind this team, were involved in the killing of our fellow comrades and some of them were present when I was attacked.

MR RICHARD: So it didn't matter whether it was just an ordinary supporter, or a leader, or a player?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you remember which month this happened in?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, it was in March.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember the date?

MR MADONSELA: I cannot recall the date.

MR RICHARD: Now it's been explained already that you couldn't do anything at the stadium. At what stage did you plan to organise an ambush of the bus?

MR MADONSELA: We planned after realising that these people were now boarding the bus in preparation for departure and our concern was that we were not able to capture any one of them and we came up with this idea that we should wait for them somewhere and bruise them.

MR RICHARD: So when you reached the place where you planned to do the ambush, could you describe to us very briefly what you did?

MR MADONSELA: We were travelling in a kombi and when we came to this slope, that is where we thought the bus would be coming here at a high speed and we stood there and we got out of the vehicle with the petrol bombs and we effected the attack as they came.

MR RICHARD: Now what did you use to make the petrol bombs?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I think that's common cause Mr Richard. Did you do anything personally? Did you throw a petrol bomb?

MR MADONSELA: No, I did not. I was travelling in the transport, I should say I was in the vehicle that was to be used as an escape vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You agreed with the attack on the bus, is that right?

MR MADONSELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. Mr Richard, what is the next incident?

MR RICHARD: The next incident was the killing of Mr Masebuko. Did you know of the killing of Mr Masebuko?

MR MADONSELA: No.

MR RICHARD: Did you participate in its planning?

MR MADONSELA: No.

MR RICHARD: Can you tell us anything about it?

MR MADONSELA: No, nothing.

MR RICHARD: The fourth incident was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you agree with the attack on Mr Masebuko?

MR MADONSELA: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not?

MR RICHARD: Why didn't you agree with that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps you must lead him properly.

MR RICHARD: Sorry. Did you know Mr Masebuko?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I knew him.

MR RICHARD: Was Mr Masebuko a supporter or member of the Eastern MG Pirates Soccer Club?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, he was a supporter, a follower.

MR RICHARD: Did you know an attack on him was planned?

MR MADONSELA: No, I have no idea when this attack was planned, but the decision had already been out by the 3rd of January to the effect that we should also give them the same treatment as they do unto our brothers.

MR RICHARD: When you heard that Mr Masebuko had been attacked, did you agree with the fact that he had been attacked?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I agreed with that.

MR RICHARD: Do you know how he died, how he was attacked?

MR MADONSELA: No, I have no idea.

MR RICHARD: Now in June that year, three vigilantes were killed and in the bundle Sipo Ngwenya and five other unnamed UDF members were party to that killing. Were you involved in it?

MR MADONSELA: No, I was not party to it.

MR RICHARD: Did you know it was going to happen?

MR MADONSELA: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you know Patrick Sithole?

MR MADONSELA: I cannot recall Patrick Sithole quite well.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear about the attack after it happened?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I heard.

MR RICHARD: And what was your attitude to the attack, did you object or support it?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I associated myself with it.

MR RICHARD: And did you know any of the victims and the names I've got are, Mabuleko Dlamini, Esau Twala and a certain Bheki, did you know any of those?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I knew them.

MR RICHARD: And did they belong to any political organisation or support any political party?

MR MADONSELA: They were members of Eastern Pirates MG.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear about your comrade, Sipo Ngwenya's arrest?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I heard.

MR RICHARD: Now the fifth incident involves the assault and killing of Mabisi Mazizi, did you in any way participate in the planning or execution of that killing?

MR MADONSELA: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Did you know it was going to happen before it happened?

MR MADONSELA: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: When did you first hear about it?

MR MADONSELA: I heard on the same day, but in the evening of the same day.

MR RICHARD: And what was your reaction to the news? Did you associate yourself with what your comrade had done?

MR MADONSELA: I thought he deserved it, I thought he deserved to be injured.

MR RICHARD: And did you know Mr Mazizi?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I knew him.

MR RICHARD: Why did you think he deserved to be killed?

MR MADONSELA: He was one of those people who attacked me.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know Vusi Mnisi?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the next incident?

MR RICHARD: No, it's one of the perpetrators.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what?

MR RICHARD: Of the killing of Mr Mazizi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he an applicant?

MR RICHARD: No, he's not an applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Does it help us?

MR RICHARD: I'll leave the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, much of this is not disputed. Perhaps we can just get the part of the applicant and see whether he associated himself with the rest.

MR RICHARD: I've covered that, so I'll leave that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: The sixth and last incident was the shooting, not killing of Spundla Mpila in March 1987. Were you a party to that shooting or did you participate in its planning?

MR MADONSELA: I did participate in the planning.

MR RICHARD: In what way?

MR MADONSELA: We held a ...(indistinct - background noise) to the effect that one comrade should be sent out to launch an attack on their section.

MR RICHARD: Now why did you decide to attack that section?

MR MADONSELA: We resided at that section, so we knew that if we launch an attack there, we would be able to attack or injure someone there.

MR RICHARD: Who did you plan to attack and injure, just residents of that section, or a specific group, or individual?

MR MADONSELA: We targeted the MG supporters.

MR RICHARD: Was Mr Mpila an MG supporter?

MR MADONSELA: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Now had you ever seen Mr Mpila in the company of a Sgt Meyer?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, I did in that period when I was attacked, the Sgt Meyer was in their company.

MR RICHARD: And Mr Mpila, that's Spundla Mpila was specifically with Sgt Meyer, or were they just in the same area at the same time?

MR MADONSELA: They were together because Sgt Meyer was in a police van and they were seated at the back.

MR RICHARD: And what were they doing in the back?

MR MADONSELA: When I approached the van, I informed my colleagues not to flee because we were about to meet our enemies who were after us, so we did not run away, but as the van passed us and I turned to look at them, one of them who was in the van, Derek Masina, recognised me. They all jumped out of the van and gave chase, but I fled. Sgt Meyer gave chase in the police van and passed me and waited for me ahead. As I approached the next street, I saw the van in which Sgt Meyer was. I then returned to that house from which I had been approaching and fled to a safer place.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now I don't believe there are any further question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyawuza, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Chairperson, may I, just before Mr Nyawuza, may I just clarify something? Mr Madonsela, did you have legal representation when you filled out this form? I'm not trying to catch you, I want to try and help you here.

MR MADONSELA: No, I did not.

ADV BOSMAN: Now when you attended the meeting, did you decide and you decided with the others, that you would kill anybody and attack anybody that was part of the MG Pirates Team or supporters of the team, is that right?

MR MADONSELA: That is so. However, the emphasis was also placed on those people who were leaders in that..

ADV BOSMAN: Yes. Okay, I just want - so when you gave evidence now about incidents which you did not mention on your form, it was because you didn't know that you had to put that down as well, the other people that you approved of that had been killed, is that right?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, there were incidents that were not mentioned in the form because I was not aware that I'd be required to give evidence on them.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you mean to get amnesty for all these people that you had decided with the others you should attack and kill? Is that your intention?

MR MADONSELA: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: That's something that - Mr Richard you should perhaps just attend to. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nyawuza.

MR NYAWUZA: Only a few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Mr Madonsela, do I hear your testimony correctly when you say it wasn't time, it wasn't long enough that you had known Lulu Louw?

MR MADONSELA: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: Long is a relative term. Maybe if you put it in terms of months, weeks, or a year, how long would you say it was?

MR MADONSELA: I would estimate a time of about 6 months.

MR NYAWUZA: And was he a player or a supporter or an office bearer at MG Pirates?

MR MADONSELA: He was a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR NYAWUZA: Did he at any stage attack you, or do you perhaps know of any incident where he was involved in the attack of comrades?

MR MADONSELA: As I mentioned earlier on, he was part of the group that attacked me.

MR NYAWUZA: And you are still positive today that he was part of the people that attacked you?

MR MADONSELA: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: And regarding the, you know, the MG Pirates supporters and players thing, were all these people perceived to be enemies of the comrades?

MR MADONSELA: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: So an attack on MG supporters would be indiscriminate of whether the person had partaken in attacking any of the comrades, would I be correct in saying so?

MR MADONSELA: We particularly knew that they were all involved in the attack of comrades because when they launched these attacks, there were many of them.

MR NYAWUZA: And when you come to the N3 highway matter where Aubrey was part of the people that were in the bus, did you have any intentions of getting Aubrey injured on that particular day, or you were not specifically aiming at a particular individual, you were attacking the supporters and the players? What is it that you had in mind?

MR MADONSELA: Our attack was directed at people in the bus because we were aware that those people were responsible for attacks on us.

MR NYAWUZA: Are you saying all the people that were in the bus were responsible for attacks on you, or most of them?

MR MADONSELA: I would say all of them, because I was not aware of the specific individuals who were in the bus, so I assumed that since the bus was carrying MG supporters and players, it was all of them.

MR NYAWUZA: Mar Madonsela your attacked on MG Pirate supporters and players, was it retaliatory? Were you retaliating to them having attacked you first, or what prompted that? What prompted the attack, the killing, you know, between yourselves and these guys, more on your attack on them, what prompted the killing of MG supporters and players?

MR MADONSELA: We attacked them after they had launched attacks on us or after they had started killing us. We were interested in knowing why they had decided to attack us. Unfortunately we were not able to find that out.

MR NYAWUZA: And in your attack, how many people you know did you have in mind? Did you have the 11 players, or let's say about 18 players and the office bearers of MG Pirates or how many people did you have in mind? Who were your specific targets?

MR MADONSELA: We directed our attack at members of MG Pirates, because the entire team was in agreement about attacking us, therefore it made sense to attack everyone who supported that team, except for their parents.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Madonsela, did Aubrey partake in any of the attacks on the comrades?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, he did.

MR NYAWUZA: When?

MR MADONSELA: Even on the day when I was attacked on the 3rd, he was also present.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Madonsela it's my instruction that Aubrey doesn't even know that Sgt Meyer, what's your comment on that?

MR MADONSELA: No one admits to a crime but we are now before the Truth Commission to tell it as it happened.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Madonsela, I wish to advise you that Aubrey is not opposing your amnesty and not opposing your amnesty, he doesn't have any reason to come before this Committee and tell lies, otherwise if he wanted to tell lies, he would oppose your amnesty and just create a bunch of lies to put you in a tight corner, so what would be the reason for him lying?

MR MADONSELA: If he says he was not present when I was attacked by people who were with Sgt Meyer, then he's lying.

MR NYAWUZA: No further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Two questions Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Madonsela, the incident where you were attacked by the MG Pirates Football Club and assisted by Sgt Meyer, where did this take place? I want the exact location.

MR MADONSELA: We were in ...(indistinct) section in Zakele.

MS MTANGA: When was this?

MR MADONSELA: It was on the 3rd of January 1987.

MS MTANGA: And who were you with?

MR MADONSELA: I was in the company of two comrades from Tokoza.

MS MTANGA: Mr Madonsela I wish to put it to you that Sgt Meyer who is now Capt Meyer, denies having been involved in attacking UDF members and thereby assisting MG Pirates Football Club, what do you say to this?

MR MADONSELA: Well, he may deny it all he wants now, but I did see him on that day.

MS MTANGA; Well were you and your colleagues or any of your colleagues approached at any time during this period of this violence by Sgt Meyer to investigate what was really going on? Were you ever approached by Sgt Meyer?

MR MADONSELA: No.

MS MTANGA; I again put it to you that according to Capt Meyer, who was then a Sergeant, he had tried to approach the UDF members, including yourself, to try and investigate the incidents that were taking place against you and you were not co-operating as the UDF and the reason that you come here and you allege that he was assisting the MG Pirates Football Club, it's because they were co-operating with the police in the investigations and hence they were seen with the Football Club people. What do you say to this?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree, or disagree?

MR MADONSELA: I say I do not agree with what he says.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Pane?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, no questions, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR RICHARD: Very few questions.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Madonsela, as at 1987 a group of people were seen to be co-operative and working with the police, how would the UDF have seen them?

MR MADONSELA: Those people would be regarded as associates of the police in the killing of comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now, well it's difficult to say that the UDF had a firm policy, in your area, in Standerton, what was your police? To work with the police or to oppose them and not to co-operate with them?

MR MADONSELA: We were opposed tot he police because they were responsible for arresting us for the political violence that was taking place at the time.

MR RICHARD: Now is it not true that if anyone was found to be giving information to the police of almost any nature, that person would have been the object of strong suspicion and be suspected of being an "impimpi"?

MR MADONSELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, to turn to the question put by the Committee, when you and your co-applicants decided to apply for amnesty, did anyone sit down with you and explain what type of detail you needed to give, why you needed to give certain types of information and what the purposes of giving certain ...(END OF TAPE)

MR MADONSELA: ...that whoever wishes to seek amnesty for political crimes, should come forward. We then discussed the letter and decided to come forward explain what happened at that time.

MR RICHARD: Now, we know what happened in 1987, it is what is covered by this application. Is it not correct that you and all your co-applicants do not see yourselves as individuals but see yourselves as a group of people who did various things?

MR MADONSELA: We regarded ourselves as comrades, members of the UDF and it had not been our intention to attack and injure people, our struggle had not been directed at individuals but at the boers who were in Government at the time.

MR RICHARD: Now, is it not your intention as a group, to apply for amnesty for everything that each of you did as individuals and you collectively took responsibility as a group for doing?

MR MADONSELA: I would say that because all these acts were committed whilst we were members of one group, we decided to come forward and fill in our applications as such.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Mr Madonsela, you're excused, thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. ....(indistinct) Mr Ngwenya.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard we'll deal with his testimony at 2 o'clock. It appears to us as if, unless there's something that we're not aware of, it appears to us that the particular role of an

applicant and whether or not he associates with what happened, seems to be the thrust of the evidence, so we believe that there shouldn't be too much time taken us and therefore we'll take the adjournment at this stage until 2 o'clock.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------SIPO A NGWENYA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Ngwenya, you've heard the evidence of the previous applicants. Do you confirm what they have said?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: You believe that they accurately described both their own and your role in the various transactions and events that they've given evidence on?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Is there anything you want to add, alter or amplify?

MR NGWENYA: I don't want to subtract anything.

MR RICHARD: Now, I'm going to go directly then to the first incident and that's the killing of Whisky Lulu Louw. Now, would you please tell us what you personally did in that killing. Did you personally stab the deceased, assist anybody?

MR NGWENYA: Thank you Chair. Yes, I did stab Lulu and yes I partook in his killing. I killed him with a jungle knife.

MR RICHARD: Now I'm going to put it as a catch all question. Did you and your co-applicants all see Mr Louw as an opponent of the liberation struggle, a supporter of the old regime?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, that is how I perceived him.

MR RICHARD: And do you agree and associate yourself with the reasons for forming that opinion given by your previous co-applicants?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I agree with that.

MR RICHARD: And then on the second incident, that was the attack on the bus, were you personally involved in that event?

MR NGWENYA: No, I was not present during that attack.

MR RICHARD: Were you party to its planning?

MR NGWENYA: I would say that in everything that concerned MG Pirates, everything that happened, even though some of these things happened in my absence, happened with my consent.

MR RICHARD: You associate with what was done.

MR NGWENYA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here? Were you party to the decision that was taken that all MG Pirate members and supporters should be attacked?

MR NGWENYA: Chairperson on the 3rd of January 1987 we were from the funeral of Comrade Joel and Bhumgame Radebe. Yes, we came to agreement that there are certain important people who were important in the opposition that was ...(indistinct) our fellow comrades. We should kill them. Unfortunately I was in prison at the time, but yes, I associated myself with everything that was happening, that was the decision that we took in 1997.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now the third incident, on which we haven't heard direct evidence yet, and that was the killing of Mr Masebuko, do you remember when that incident happened?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I do recall.

MR RICHARD: Which year?

MR NGWENYA: In January it was in the evening, January 1987.

MR RICHARD: Now, was that the first event after your decision of 3 January?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated.

MR RICHARD: You had a meeting on the 3rd of January 1987 that various things would happen. Now this event, the killing of Mr Masebuko happened in January 1987. Was it the first thing that happened after you took the 3 January 87 decision?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, that is correct, that was the first incident after the decision was taken on the 3rd of January in that Masebuko incident.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know Mr Masebuko's full names?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, Mandla is the name, Mandla Masebuko.

MR RICHARD: Now, with whom did you plan to attack Mr Masebuko and why did you?

MR NGWENYA: I would like to say that we did not plan. We were sitting at a particular house and Mr Masebuko, on his way from the gym, we chased him, we got hold of him and started attacking him with pangas and we were sitting at this particular house, we were outside the house and we saw him coming from the gym.

MR RICHARD: Why did you decide that Mr Masebuko should be attacked?

MR NGWENYA: He was part and parcel of the players of Eastern Pirates MG.

MR RICHARD: And when you use the word we, who is we? You and who else?

MR NGWENYA: It was myself, Dida Twala, the late Sipo Tshabalala was also part of it.

MR RICHARD: Now how did you know that Mr Masebuko was associated with the Eastern MG Pirates Soccer Club?

MR NGWENYA: He was a player of Easter Pirates MG and I was also a player belonging to Easter Roman ...(indistinct) and one of the things that I was - I knew Bele, Ndombela and also Masebuko, we used to go to the same school together.

MR RICHARD: Do you know whether Mr Masebuko belonged to any political party or supported any political cause or what his political opinions were?

MR NGWENYA: Mr Masebuko was not in a political group, he was a member of Eastern Pirates MG.

MR RICHARD: And what were Eastern Pirates MG's political opinions? What did you think they were?

MR NGWENYA: That group was political, but they then had a conflict with us following rumours and information that we had gathered, that led to the intensification of the conflict between the two of us.

MR RICHARD: Did you see them as supporters of the South African Police and the old regime?

MR NGWENYA: That happened after we had a conflict, that's when the police got involved, but initially they were just playing soccer, having nothing to do with the Police.

MR RICHARD: As at January 1987, when you killed Mr Masebuko, what was the position?

MR NGWENYA: I would say the situation was very tense in the township. It was not possible to move freely about the township and they were colluding with the Councillors.

MR RICHARD: And as at that stage, did you see them as supporters of the Councillors and supporters of the old apartheid government?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: How did you kill Mr Masebuko?

MR NGWENYA: We chased him. We stabbed him. He fell. I had a jungle knife and I stabbed him and one other comrade had a panga and he stabbed him too.

MR RICHARD: Did you do anything else?

MR NGWENYA: We put him in a van and we took him near St John, the church. Before we went to St John, we actually took an empty container to buy some petrol and also got hold of a tyre and then we dosed him with petrol and made him drink some of the petrol and put the tyre round his neck and then we set him alight.

MR RICHARD: Now were you ever arrested for the event?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I was.

MR RICHARD: Were you prosecuted and tried?

MR NGWENYA: I was not sentenced, I was acquitted.

MR RICHARD: Before the incident which was in June 1987 and involved the killing of three vigilantes, do you remember the incident?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now who were these vigilantes?

MR NGWENYA: Mabuleka Dlamini, the same Twala, Bheki whose surname I have forgotten, he used to reside in Morewa Street.

MR RICHARD: Did these vigilantes - why do you call them vigilantes?

MR NGWENYA: That was the term we used because they did not collaborate with the comrades.

MR RICHARD: Who did they collaborate with, if anyone?

MR NGWENYA: When we got hold of Mr Lulu as we were travelling with him in the kombi, he referred to Mr Mgomezulu who was a Councillor and Mr Meyer who was a police at Secunda and there was also Mr Greyling who was a police senior during those apartheid days.

MR RICHARD: And what was said of the relationship between the vigilantes and these names that you've mentioned, Greyling and Meyer?

MR NGWENYA: Lulu said they were called and promised R10 000, a kombi and a soccer kit should they get hold of the ringleaders of the comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now how did it come that you attacked these three vigilantes? When was the decision made to attack?

MR NGWENYA: As I have explained earlier on that on the 3rd of January we came to an agreement that among the people who were involved in the killing of the comrades, we should try and get hold of some of them and we should do unto them as they did unto us.

MR RICHARD: This was in June. Now when did you decide that these three particular vigilantes should be attacked? Was it that day, that week?

MR NGWENYA: We had not necessarily target them, we were coming from Dida Twala's home on that day and on our way we came across Patrick Sithole, the one about whom questions were asked.

MR RICHARD: And what happened?

MR NGWENYA: Patrick Sithole knew that we did not see eye to eye and then he ran away and we gave chase.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did he run to?

MR NGWENYA: He ran into the place where these other three comrades got injured.

MR RICHARD: Now were you with anyone, or were others - what were their names?

MR NGWENYA: Sipo Ngwenya, Johannes Maringa, he's present here and Dida Twala as well as Papa Nkabinde, who has since passed away.

MR RICHARD: Now what happened at this house where you traced Patrick Sithole to?

MR NGWENYA: It was a coal yard homestead and a blow to Mr Twala and he started screaming something like: "Here are these people".

MR RICHARD: What did you and your comrades do?

MR NGWENYA: We pushed the door open, we were aware that they might be having some forks inside, seeing that they were dealing with coals and I drew my firearm.

MR RICHARD: Did you use your firearm?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Did you kill anyone?

MR NGWENYA: We used the firearm, but we understood that that would have been a very serious case, Meyer himself would have come after us and I fired a shot and it actually missed the target, that was deliberate because we didn't know who was behind the door.

MR RICHARD: Then how did you kill the people in the house?

MR NGWENYA: On opening fire, they came out and scattered in different directions, that's when the three remained, those are the ones who got injured that day.

MR RICHARD: Now what did you do to any of them other than with the firearm? Did you stab them?

MR NGWENYA: They were stabbed, no one was shot. We did not use the firearm.

MR RICHARD: Did you stab any one of the people that were killed?

MR NGWENYA: No, because I did not have a knife in my possession except for the gun.

MR RICHARD: Did you associate yourself with the stabbing that your comrades did?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now were you ever arrested for this incident?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I was.

MR RICHARD: Were you ever put on trial and prosecuted?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, but I was acquitted for all the charges.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. The next incident, Mabisi Mazizi, were you part of that incident?

MR NGWENYA: I would like to explain Chairperson. Incidents that I was involved in were those of Lulu and the three gentlemen and Masebuko. I was not present in the other incidents except to say I associated myself with those incidents, following the decision that we had taken previously.

MR RICHARD: Yes. In that even Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nyawuza, questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Mr Ngwenya, if you look at the bundle on page three, the incident the killing of three vigilantes, there's the name of a certain Mzwaike Samson Mhlapo, do you perhaps know that guy?

MR NGWENYA: That's the person whose name and certain I said I cannot recall. I said he said resides at Morewa Street, the family which owned a business. Yes, I know him.

MR NYAWUZA: So are we to assume that it's the Bheki that you refer to in your testimony?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no question Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: No questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ngwenya, you're excused. Thank you.

MR RICHARD: The next applicant is Mr Mnguni, he is applicant one on the list.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------SIPO TIMOTHY MNGUNI: (sworn states)

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Mnguni, you've been present here all morning and you have heard the evidence of the previous applicants. Did you hear and understand what they said?

MR MNGUNI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Did they give a correct and truthful account of their own, yours and your comrades' involvement in the various incidents that they've described?

MR MNGUNI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Is there anything with which you disagree that you'd like to make comment on?

MR MNGUNI: No.

MR RICHARD: And for the sake of the record, I think we'll ask you the omnibus question, is it correct or incorrect that you and all your comrades, your co-applicants here today, saw the members and supporters of the sports club known as Easter MG Pirates Soccer Club as opponents of the UDF and supporters of the old apartheid regime?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And is it also correct that as your co-applicants have said, persons who gave information to the South African Police, co-operated with the police, co-operated with the apartheid councillors were seen as enemies of the struggle and possibly "impimpis"?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now and again for the record, you and all your co-applicants were members of the United Democratic Front which supported and aligned itself with the African National Congress?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now the first incident, that was the killing of Mr Louw. Did you take an active part in the stabbing of Mr Louw?

MR MNGUNI: Very much so. Very much so.

MR RICHARD: Were you one of them who stabbed him both when he was in the water and before he ran away and got into the water?

MR MNGUNI: He was already injured when he got into the water and I realised that he was not properly dead and I came to finish him off?

MR RICHARD: Now why did you see Mr Louw as an enemy, who had to die.

MR MNGUNI: They were attacking us.

MR RICHARD: Did you know them?

MR MNGUNI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Was he a member of the Eastern Pirates Soccer Club?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he was a player.

MR RICHARD: Now next incident and that was the incident where the bus on the N3 freeway was petrol bombed, were you a party to the planning of that incident or its execution?

MR MNGUNI: Even though I was not present, but I was part of the whole thing.

MR RICHARD: What was your attitude toward it?

MR MNGUNI: I accepted it because they were attacking us as well.

MR RICHARD: And did you associate yourself with it?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now the third incident and that was the killing of a Mr Masebuko by the previous applicant, Sipo Ngwenya, were you involved in that incident in person?

MR MNGUNI: Even though I was not present, yes, I was involved in so far as what they did, I associated myself, even though I was not present.

MR RICHARD: Did you know it was going to happen before it happened?

MR MNGUNI: The people were killing us in such a way that it was possible for us to engage in fighting and killing them ultimately in the event of us coming across them.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you present at the meeting on the 3rd of January where the decision was taken that the members of the team and the supporters of the team should be attacked when you came across them?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I was present.

MR RICHARD: I'll proceed to the fourth incident and that was the killing of the three vigilantes, that's Mhlapo, Twala and Dlamini. Now were you personally involved in that incident?

MR MNGUNI: Even though I was not personally involved, but yes, I associated myself with the incident.

MR RICHARD: Did you know that it was going to happen in advance?

MR MNGUNI: I knew that was bound to happen.

MR RICHARD: Now the fifth and sixth incidents, that's the killing of Mabisi Mazizi and the injury by shooting by Spundla Mpila, were you involved in the execution of either of those attacks?

MR MNGUNI: I was not involved, but had I had a chance, I would have definitely got involved.

MR RICHARD: And you associated yourself with the two attacks?

MR MNGUNI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now as a matter of form, is it not true that in your case, as in the cases of your co-applicants, no one sat down and explained to you how to fill in an application for amnesty form?

MR MNGUNI: It was publicised in the newspapers in 1994 to the fact that everybody who participated in these incidents should co-operate with the TRC. That is the reason why we are here today.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone assist you in completing the form, or did you just do the best you could on your own with your comrades?

MR MNGUNI: I completed the application form on my own, with the assistance of course of my fellow brothers.

MR RICHARD: Now when you completed the form, was it your intention to apply for amnesty for everything that you and your comrades did?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir. Mr Nyawuza.

MR NYAWUZA: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: One question thank you. Mr Mnguni, if you turn to page 35 of the bundle you'll see your application form. There you filled in that you were an office bearer of the UDF, can you just explain to us what office bearer you were?

MR MNGUNI: The position pertained to the fact that we were exchanging ideas with fellow comrades. You see we had kangaroo courts in the township and we were thus involved in sharing ideas pertaining to all of these matters.

ADV BOSMAN: I notice that all your co-applicants have filled out that they were office bearers. Can you explain that. Did you discuss this office bearer amongst yourselves, this idea of an office bearer?

MR MNGUNI: We were just exchanging ideas about everything, also with regard to the word office bearer.

ADV BOSMAN: Let me put it in a different way. Did you regard your fellow applicants as office bearers of the UDF?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that's how I perceived them.

ADV BOSMAN: And was that for the same reason that you regarded yourself as an office bearer?

MR MNGUNI: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, any re-examination?

MR RICHARD: Very few questions.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: In the UDF in Standerton where you were at the time, of the six of you here in court, who was senior, sorry six before the Amnesty Committee not court?

MR MNGUNI: We were on equal par. Anybody who showed enthusiasm would come forward but we were basically all equal.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone have the right to give the rest of you an order which you had to carry out?

MR MNGUNI: No, nobody had such a right, because we could see ourselves anything and everything that was happening in the township.

MR RICHARD: When you were confronted with a question that you had to decide on, how did you go about making that decision? Did you all meet and come to an agreement, or did just one person decide what the others should do?

MR MNGUNI: We would meet and come up with a decision.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mnguni, you're excused, thank you. Who's next?

MR MNGUNI: Before vacating the seat I would like to explain something. In so far as Richard Twala is concerned and this 13 year old boy called Mati, I was present on that day. Actually I was employed, but I, yes I would go to the township regularly and these other comrades were not there and the MG members came to me, they came after me and I ran away and ran into a house next to Mati's house and they discovered I was there and I fled on and around 7 o'clock I was in a house. Disco, Aubrey Mabola, Mashaba, Sanjo and Louw, Kabeshe, Spundla, Banya and Dan and Jacob Twala and Mavimba and Magaks and Mdudusi, Kaizer and Doctor, these are the people that I saw on the day when Richard died, but I was inside the house and they came, these people that I've just mentioned, they were looking for Dida Twala and one of our comrades did not open the door and they started asking: "Why are you closing the door when

you are not fighting?" And he opened the door and stood behind the door. That's when I saw all of these people who killed Richard Twala.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mnguni, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------VUSIMUSI PAULUS VILAKAZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Vilakazi, you've been here all day and I ask you the question, have you heard what your previous co-applicants have said and do you understand what they have said?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I heard.

MR RICHARD: Now do you confirm what they have said about your involvement in the various incidents and their own and the involvement of your co-applicants?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I confirm that.

MR RICHARD: Now is there anything that you want to comment on about what they've said? Anything that you disagree with that you want to record your disagreement or anything where they've given too few details which you want to amplify and explain?

MR VILAKAZI: No.

MR RICHARD: Now your particular involvement was in the fifth incident and that was the killing of Mabisi Mazizi, do you remember when that incident happened and where it happened?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I do recall.

MR RICHARD: When did it happen?

MR VILAKAZI: In 1987, August, at Zakele township.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember where in Zakele township?

MR VILAKAZI: At Jabavu Langa Street.

MR RICHARD: Now were you alone or were you with others?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I was with others.

MR RICHARD: Who were there?

MR VILAKAZI: Mr Mnisi, he's now deceased, Papa Schoolboy Nkabinde, also deceased, ...(indistinct) also deceased, Jabulani Soko, he's still alive but I don't know his whereabouts and others whose names I cannot recall.

MR RICHARD: Now had you planned to kill Mr Mazizi before that day, or was it something that was decided only that day?

MR VILAKAZI: We had not planned anything in that regard that day, but we planned on the 3rd of January after the funeral of comrade Joel, that we were going to take action against any MG member that we were going to come across.

MR RICHARD: Now did you know Mr Mazizi?

MR VILAKAZI: Very well.

MR RICHARD: Was he associated with any organisation and with the Football Club?

MR VILAKAZI: He was a member of Easter Pirates MG.

MR RICHARD: How did you know that?

MR VILAKAZI: I knew this because we were always in conflict with them and he was in the forefront and he was playing a very crucial role in the conflict.

MR RICHARD: You now - on that day in August 1987, how did you come into contact with Mr Mazizi, what were you and your comrades doing?

...(END OF TAPE)

MR VILAKAZI: ...(no translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Just - I'm sorry Mr Vilakazi.

INTERPRETER: Sorry about that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. Somehow there was some technical hitch. You'll just have to retreat.

MR RICHARD: He'll just have to start again.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, not altogether, just deal with what happened.

MR VILAKAZI: On that day following the Zulu tradition there was this ceremony at Joel's home and we had gathered there as comrades and we chanted slogans. We went out of the homestead chanting slogans and when we came to a certain corner, we saw the deceased standing at a corner in the other street. On seeing us they fled into a shebeen. We pursued them into the shebeen because we could see him because of his conspicuous nature and we stabbed him and we hurled stones at him and we left him there. That's how we fled.

MR RICHARD: Now you talk of a ceremony at Joel's home, what ceremony was that?

MR VILAKAZI: In our culture of aMaZulu, there is this what we call the cleansing culture, the cleansing ceremony.

MR RICHARD: Now I am correct in saying Joel had died on the 25th of December the year before?

MR VILAKAZI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And so you were remembering your fallen comrade that day?

MR VILAKAZI: Not necessarily, but it was a domestic affair. Joel's family affair, a cleansing ceremony belonging to the family.

MR RICHARD: Now were you personally involved in any of the other incidents? Did you personally take part in them and do anything physically?

MR VILAKAZI: No, I was never involved in any other incident except for this one.

MR RICHARD: Now did you know about the other incidents?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What was your reaction to the incidents when you heard about them?

MR VILAKAZI: It was very difficult times, you know, but everything that my comrades did, even though they did it in my absence was the right thing to do because I would also suffer the same fate had I come across the other group.

MR RICHARD: So did you associate with what your comrades had done?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I associate myself with that.

MR RICHARD: Now two further questions, very short ones. Do you agree or disagree with my proposition that at that time during 1987 you and your comrades saw the Eastern MG Football Club, it's members and supporters, as supporters of the apartheid councillors, the apartheid Government and opposed to the struggle?

MR VILAKAZI: That is correct because in one incident when we were at a night vigil for comrade Mati, these people who were in the company of Sgt Meyer arrived and attacked us. I do not know how they got ...(indistinct) to attack the MG funeral or not, so it was obvious at that time that they worked in collusion with the police.

MR RICHARD: And now my last question is, at that time in 1987, do you agree or disagree with the statement that people who were either seen to give information and to co-operate with the South African police, or thought to co-operate and collaborate with the South African police, were seen as "impimpis" and enemies of the struggle?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, they were regarded as ...(ethnic)

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Nyawuza.

MR NYAWUZA: I don't have any questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: I have just one question, Chairperson. Mr Vilakazi can you look on page 110 of the bundle? Your lawyer can show it to you, the last paragraph of the page. You speak about an order you had, can you see that? Can you see there "order"? Is that your own handwriting?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now all your co-applicants said that they were office bearers, but you only say you were a member. If you turn to page 106 (7) (b), you say you were a member of the UDF and then you speak about an order, from whom did you get the order? Who gave you the order?

MR VILAKAZI: As a UDF member, I was in the company of other comrades on the 3rd of January when this matter was discussed, that was the issue of killing or attacking an MG member of supporter.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you participate in the decision of the 3rd of January? I just want to clear up the word order, because we've got it on paper here. So you participated in the decision and you regarded the decision as an order, is that how you saw it? Do you understand the question or must I put it to you again?

MR VILAKAZI: No, I do not quite understand.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, I'll ask you again. You say you were also present on the 3rd of January when the decision was taken, okay, and did you regard this decision as an order? Is that why you say order on page 110?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, that is how I regarded it, I had to follow the decision.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may just bring it to the attention of the Committee, on page 11(a), there was a question put in the Request for Further Particulars, number 4, where it was asked: "Who in the ANC gave them orders" and his response on page 112, the same number, number 4, he says:

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you Ms Mtanga. Yes thank you. Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Mr Vilakazi, thank you. You are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: The last is Mandla ...(indistinct - background noise)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------MANDLA ALBERT TSHABALALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Now Mr Tshabalala, I'll put the question yet again. You've been here all day and have you listened and paid attention to what all your co-applicants have said in support of their applications today?

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Do you understand what they have said?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And is there anything with which you disagree and on which you want to make comment and give an explanation?

MR TSHABALALA: No there's nothing I disagree with.

MR RICHARD: And do you confirm what they said?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: And you confirm everything they said about all of you being members of the United Democratic Front and the members and supporters and office bearers of the Eastern MG Pirates Soccer Club being your opponents and supporters of the apartheid Councillors and Government?

MR TSHABALALA: That's right.

MR RICHARD: Now what position do you currently hold in the Standerton area?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not hold any position.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now in the applications for amnesty, it appears that there's only one in which you personally were the active role player and that was the shooting of Spundla Mpila, do you remember the incident?

MR TSHABALALA: There are two incidents in which I was involved, the bus attack and also the attack on Mr Spundla Mpila.

MR RICHARD: Now we'll talk of Mr Spundla Mpila, do you remember when this attack took place?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not recall the date nor the month, but I do recall the year.

MR RICHARD: If I said it was in March 1987, do you agree or disagree?

MR TSHABALALA: I would agree with that.

MR RICHARD: Now do you remember where this attack took place?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Where did it happen?

MR TSHABALALA: It was at Simendeni section.

MR RICHARD: Now where is that section? In which township or which ...(indistinct)?

MR TSHABALALA: It was where the MG Pirates members and supporters resided.

MR RICHARD: Now did you know Spundla Mpila?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, very well.

MR RICHARD: For how long had you known him?

MR TSHABALALA: I was born and raised in Zakele, so I know all the residents of the area.

MR RICHARD: So you have known him all your life?

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Now did he support any political organisation, or was he a member of any particular Football Team?

MR TSHABALALA: What I know is that he was associated with MG Pirates Soccer Club.

MR RICHARD: And how did you know that?

MR TSHABALALA: I was a soccer player myself, I used to play for Pirates. As I've already mentioned I was raised in that township, so I know just about everyone.

MR RICHARD: Now on that day in March, when was it planned that you would go and attack somebody who killed Spundla?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not recall the date, but as my co-applicants have mentioned, we had already had that mandate and in any case, it was not Spundla specifically who was targeted, it was anyone within that group, because there were allegations that they were out to kill and behead me.

MR RICHARD: Now where did you hear these allegations from?

MR TSHABALALA: They used to chant this. They also went to my mother and informed here that one day she would open the door and see my head outside the door.

MR RICHARD: Now, what was your reaction to that information?

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: You had received this information that people were going to cut off your head. Now what was your reaction to that?

MR TSHABALALA: I was always alert and on the look-out that they should not find me in a state of being unready.

MR RICHARD: Now the day that Spundla got killed, how did it come that you met up with him? Who sent you? When was it decided that you would go out and do whatever you did?

MR TSHABALALA: A decision was taken on the same day by myself, Sipo Dlamini, Dida and Oupa ...(indistinct) who is since late, and myself. At that time, if we had attacked one of them, they would seize, or they would not pursue us as hard as they did because they also had the assistance of the police.

MR RICHARD: In your application you say you were walking alone that evening in the township.

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: What happened while you were walking alone?

MR TSHABALALA: I was on my way, looking for them. On approaching a street which they frequented, I saw three people approaching. I crouched on the ground and I also wore a hat. Mr Mpila then saw me and came to my side. I realised that I should start attacking the one who had already seen me. When I started firing, the rest dispersed. I tried chasing one of them after Mr Mpila had fallen, but I could not succeed in capturing him, so thereafter I fled myself.

MR RICHARD: Now did you report the incident to anyone?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Who?

MR TSHABALALA: I returned to the comrades and informed them that we should leave the township immediately because I had already shot one of them.

MR RICHARD: Now, who sent you to go out on that walk that night, that evening?

MR TSHABALALA: As I've already mentioned that I was in the company of other comrades. I myself also wanted to attack them and do so before they attacked me.

MR RICHARD: Now, the second incident that you were involved in was the bus attack. Now did you travel to Tokoza with the party?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Now when you travelled to the long hill where the attack happened, what did you do there? Did you make the petrol bombs, did you throw them, did you light them?

MR TSHABALALA: I was the Commander of that instance. The comrades were lying on the grass and I was the one person who was on the look-out for the bus, so that I informed them that the bus is now close enough for them to attack. That is what I did.

MR RICHARD: Did you handle any of the petrol bombs?

MR TSHABALALA: No I did not, no there were not many petrol bombs, we just got these two bottles, after realising that we could not attack our target as planned. What I did, my role was as I've already explained that I was on the look-out and informed them to attack when the bus was close enough.

MR RICHARD: Now did you personally play an active part in any of the other incidents?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I did not. Had I been present at the township I would have.

MR RICHARD: Now did you know about the incidents after they had happened?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: And what was your reaction and did you associate yourself with the incidents and what had happened?

MR TSHABALALA: I applauded them.

MR RICHARD: Now my last question is did any legal practitioner, paralegal, assist you in completing your amnesty application?

MR TSHABALALA: No, nobody assisted me.

MR RICHARD: And did any such person assist any of your other co-applicants, to your knowledge?

MR TSHABALALA: No one received such assistance.

MR RICHARD: Now when you and your co-applicants made your applications, was it not your intention to apply for amnesty for everything that either you or any one of your co-applicants did as part of the Standerton UDF?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it was our objective. Moreover we would also like to know why we were being attacked by those other people, because our struggle was directed at the then Government.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Nyawuza?

MR NYAWUZA: Only a few, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, is it correct that you were very agitated that these people wanted you buried without your head?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't quite get you.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, you get word that there are people looking for you and they tell you Mom that they will kill you and behead you and put your head on your mother's residence doorstep. Is it correct that that angered you?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR NYAWUZA: And will I be further correct, Mr Tshabalala, to state that on the night that you were given this task to go and kill or attack anyone of these MG supporters and/or players, you were in that fighting mood?

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: And Mr Tshabalala, to take this further, you shoot one person. There's this guy - you are kneeling and this guy seems to have seen you before the other two guys see you and then you shoot him. Naturally the guy that you shoot will be nearer to you than the others that will disperse. Will I be correct in so-saying as well?

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: And why would you then, after having shot this guy, run after the two people that were further from you than you were to the one that you'd shot?

MR TSHABALALA: I wanted to kill all of them.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, it's my instructions that Mr Mpila was alone when you shot him, there were no other two people. What's your comment on that?

MR TSHABALALA: I am the person who was present at the scene and my appearance before this Committee is to divulge the entire truth.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Mpila, excuse me, Mr Tshabalala, isn't it correct that even Mr Mpila was there on that particular day and having advised this Committee this morning that they do not oppose the amnesty application of all of you, why would he lie about that?

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, your response to my question is that you are the person that was there. I take it further. I say, granted, you were there, I was not there, but in as much as Mr Mpila was there, he's saying that what happened on that particular day to him, so I'm saying to you and you took the statement further that you are here to tell the truth, I'm saying this morning I mentioned it to the Committee that Mr Mpila is not opposing your application, so why, my question to you now is why would he lie about it, when he's not opposing your amnesty application?

MR TSHABALALA: It puzzles me why he is saying, I'm sure it's because there were three of them.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, is it correct that the incident occurred nearer the Masondo house?

MR TSHABALALA: No, it's a bit of a distance to the Masondo home. I would say it's about from that other room to the stage.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, it's Mr Mpila's testimony that you shot him and you ran after him until he went into the Masondo's house and then you turned back and laughed after you'd shot him. What's your comment?

MR TSHABALALA: I would not dispute it if he says so, but what I know is that I chased after somebody else after he had fallen.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Mpila's instruction to myself, Mr Tshabalala, that you shot him, he didn't bleed, he ran to the Masondo's house and all this time he didn't bleed, in fact he was aware that he was injured, but he didn't know where he was injured and when you turned back, he left the Masondo house to look as to where you are and you were nowhere after some time and what happened is he tried to go towards his home and it's only then that he collapsed and the Masondos came to his arrest. What's your comment on that?

MR TSHABALALA: I was not there, so I have no comment.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, you were quite aware that Dida was arrested and convicted of this. What is it that you did to prove his innocence? What happened after this incident?

MR TSHABALALA: I went to Zola in Soweto, to Mr Dida and I explained the situation about everything that had happened. Because of the slogan "an injury to one, an injury to all", Mr Twala accepted what befell him, he did not divulge that I was in fact the culprit and not him.

MR NYAWUZA: Was Dida's brother involved in the conflict as well?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he was involved.

MR NYAWUZA: Because it's my instruction Mr Tshabalala that after Mr Mpila had collapsed, Mr Twala came with a motor vehicle and he opted to take Mr Mpila to hospital, but Mr Mpila refused and said: "If I have to be taken by this guy, I would rather die in the street". Do you know anything about that?

MR TSHABALALA: That is not true. Dida was not present at the township at that time, he was at Zola in Soweto.

MR NYAWUZA: Maybe you didn't get my question. I am not speaking about Dida Twala, I am speaking about another Twala, the elder brother to Dida Twala.

MR TSHABALALA: I beg your pardon.

MR NYAWUZA: I wish to rephrase my question, Committee. Mr Tshabalala, do you know Richard Twala?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: Is he the elder brother to Dida Twala?

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: It's my instruction, Mr Tshabalala, that after the shooting incident when Mr Mpila had collapsed, Richard Twala showed up with a motor vehicle and he said he wanted to take Mr Mpila to hospital, do you know anything about that?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I had already left the scene.

MR NYAWUZA: Was Mr Richard Twala involved in the conflict between yourselves and MG Pirates members?

MR TSHABALALA: Mr Twala was not a comrade, Richard Twala, it was his brother with whom we were in the struggle.

MR NYAWUZA: Okay. No further questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions, Mr Richard, in re-examination?

MR RICHARD: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Tshabalala, you are excused, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Chairperson may I request a very brief adjournment ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn briefly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct- mike not on)

JOHANNES MAJASANA MARINGA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: I am indebted to the Committee for giving me leave to call Mr Maringa. As has been advised off record, Mr Maringa maintains that he did bring an application for amnesty for the incidents relative to the events we heard today and for another incident which took place in 1990 in the Transkei. I proceed to lead his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Maringa, at page 113(a) of the bundle, I note ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Richard, just give us a second. We will proceed in a minute, my colleague just needs to attend to something. Yes, won't you just repeat your introduction.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Mr Maringa, if you look at page 113(a) of the record, you will see that you're given the surname Majasana, not Maringa, which is your correct surname?

MR MARINGA: Majasana is not my surname, it's my second name.

MR RICHARD: Now were you ever known by any other surnames besides Maringa?

MR MARINGA: It's only names like Joe, ...(indistinct), those are the names which they used to call me.

MR RICHARD: But at no stage, even in the struggle, did you assume a war name which didn't look like any of the names that we have in front of us?

MR MARINGA: Yes, there were similar cases.

MR RICHARD: Did you use any names like that?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What were your war names?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm sorry to interrupt you Mr Richard, that was obviously just a typographical error, because on page 113(b), they seem to be referring to Mr Maringa properly as J M Maringa.

MR RICHARD: The reason for my question is that there is a database in Cape Town and if there is ...(indistinct) it might be well to have it on record so that when ...(indistinct - mike not on) there is this application on file.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so when you come to the question whether he's applying or not, perhaps you can just ask him under what name.

MR RICHARD: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever assume any other surname while in the struggle?

MR MARINGA: I used the names Joe.

MR RICHARD: Now you're aware that the problem today is that you say you made an application for amnesty which doesn't appear in the bundle. I'm going to ask you to look at page 4 of the bundle, which is an amnesty application. Do you recognise that form?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ever complete a form the same as that?

MR MARINGA: Yes, I completed the form and Comrade Sipo is the one who took all our forms, so that they may be able to post them because I am here ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now when did you complete?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. Sipo who are you referring to?

MR MARINGA: Sipo Ngwenya, the guy next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, who's he? Are there two Sipo's here?

MR RICHARD: What's Sipo's surname, the one next to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Ngwenya?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So you say that Mr Ngwenya took your application?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now when did you complete the form? Was it 1997, 98, 99?

MR MARINGA: It was 1997.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember when during 1997?

MR MARINGA: I don't still remember ...

MR RICHARD: The month?

MR MARINGA: The month, yes.

MR RICHARD: Now when you completed that form ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry where ...

MR RICHARD: Where were you when you completed the form?

MR MARINGA: I was here in ...in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were in Leeukop Maximum Prison during 1997. Were you a sentenced prisoner, or what was your position?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were serving a sentence?

MR RICHARD: Chair, if I might put the question this way, during 1997 were you a convicted prisoner serving a sentence in Leeukop?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now what crime were you convicted of?

MR MARINGA: For a murder case.

MR RICHARD: Now for the murder of whom, where?

MR MARINGA: For the murder of Dlamini.

MR RICHARD: No when - now I had asked you for which murder had you been convicted and sentenced to jail and you gave an answer, could you please repeat your answer?

MR MARINGA: I was convicted for a murder of Mr Dlamini.

MR RICHARD: And what sentence did you receive?

MR MARINGA: I was sentenced to death.

MR RICHARD: And when was that sentence imposed?

MR MARINGA: I was sentenced in 1991 on the 24th of May.

MR RICHARD: 1991?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now when you completed the form for amnesty, at paragraph 9 (a), you were asked a question where it says:

In other words, what did you apply for amnesty for. What did you answer?

MR MARINGA: I stated clearly that the deceased was a stumbling block. A stumbling block in these cells as one of the leaders of UDF based there in Standerton.

MR RICHARD: I'm not sure if I understand you. Are you saying you applied for amnesty for the murder in Umtata in 1990?

MR MARINGA: That was in 1990, correct.

MR RICHARD: And then did you apply for amnesty for any other offences?

MR MARINGA: I applied for that murder case and the other cases.

MR RICHARD: In other words the cases that we've been discussing today?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now did anyone assist you in filling in that form?

MR MARINGA: I filled up the form.

MR RICHARD: And then what did you do with the form?

MR MARINGA: There was no one who sort of telling me exactly as to say what is it exactly what I was expected to write, but I used my own understanding.

MR RICHARD: Now Mr Maringa, you filled in the form and you signed it. Who did you sign it in front of?

MR MARINGA: I signed it in front of Sipo Ngwenya, the person who brought it.

MR RICHARD: Now if you have a look at an application for amnesty, you will see that it ends....(tape ends) ....in front of a Commissioner of Oaths

MR MARINGA: To elaborate, I will put it in this fashion. Since the form was brought to me by Mr Ngwenya, it has been signed now, like it should be now. The only thing that I needed to do is just to fill in the information needed.

MR RICHARD: Now my question is very, very simple and straightforward. After the form had been completed, did you take the form to any official within the prison and say: "I want to take an oath. I want to swear that this form is true and correct"?

MR MARINGA: No, I did not do that, but at a later sage when Mr Matlala arrived, I did again sign in front of him, with the impression that he was from the TRC.

MR RICHARD: I'm going to come to Mr Matlala next. So you didn't sign that form in front of a Commissioner of Oaths.

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Then, once you had completed that form, if I understand you correctly what you did next was you gave that form with all the information filled in, to Mr Ngwenya, Sipo Ngwenya.

MR MARINGA: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Do you know what he did with it once he left you?

MR MARINGA: He told me, yes.

MR RICHARD: What did he tell you?

MR MARINGA: He said he had submitted the forms to the offices which he was supposed to.

MR RICHARD: Now you've mentioned Mr Matlala. When did Mr Matlala come and see you later? How long later? How long?

MR MARINGA: Mr Matlala came to me, if I'm not mistaken, it was after June of 2000, that is when he came to me and said I must till and sign the form, of which I did. He took it and what he said to me is that he was going to consult my fellow comrades who are sitting with me at the present moment. Thereafter he said he will go to TRC and plead that we should be given another date, since he came to me on Friday while we were supposed to appear on Monday.

MR RICHARD: Are you talking about June this year, or are you talking about September/October this year?

MR MARINGA: I'm talking about June 2000.

MR RICHARD: Now the form that Mr Matlala had, did it look like the one I showed you at page 4, or was it just an ordinary piece of paper full of handwriting?

MR MARINGA: I would say, even if I couldn't look at it attentively, but it was a form like that, that is what I assumed.

MR RICHARD: When you say a form like that, what do you mean?

MR MARINGA: The form that is like the one that you are showing me.

MR RICHARD: A form like this?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I'm showing you page 4 again.

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, I now show you page 113(a) of the bundle. Please, can you read?

MR MARINGA: I can.

MR RICHARD: Now ...

MR MARINGA: Must I read loud.

MR RICHARD: No. I want to ask you a question. You've read a couple of lines. Now when did you write down what you say in this statement? Was it this year, last year, year before?

MR MARINGA: I wrote it in 1997 and I repeated it when Mr Matlala came to me.

MR RICHARD: Now what is said on page 113(a) and 113 (b), was that part of your application for amnesty?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I then proceed to the events that we've been discussing today.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed. The form that Mr Matlala had that looked like the amnesty application form, was it empty, no information on it and did you then give him information to fill in on the form, or what happened?

MR MARINGA: Will you please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: That form that Mr Matlala had, the one that looks like the form that the lawyer showed you, was it an empty form, without any information on and did you have to give him information to put into the form, or what?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he ask you questions, to get information from you?

MR MARINGA: He asked me questions like how do I say this my case is politically motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and did he write your answers down?

MR MARINGA: Yes, he wrote my answers down and at the end of all that, did you sign the form, or what happened?

MR MARINGA: Yes at the end I signed and he signed too.

CHAIRPERSON: Both of you signed. Okay. Yes, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: One last question on that point. This form that both you and Mr Matlala signed, when did you both sign that form? Was it 1997, 98, 99, 2000?

MR MARINGA: We signed it in 2000 at Leeukop Maximum Prison during the presence of the authorities there.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now was Mr Matlala...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry Mr Richard, may I just inquire, did you tell Mr Matlala that you had also filled out a form in 1997?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And what did he say then about that form?

MR MARINGA: He said to me he had a problem of tracing where I am. Then it was up until when he visited my fellow comrades, that is when he got the information that I am in Leeukop Maximum Prison, of which he came to me.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Richard, I just wanted to clear that up.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now one last question. Was Mr Matlala the only investigator from the TRC that ever came to see you, or were there others?

MR MARINGA: There were two when they came, but the person who I spoke to, is Mr Matlala.

MR RICHARD: But nobody else came to see you before Mr Matlala?

MR MARINGA: No.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now by arrangement with the Committee and on the basis that they will hear your evidence on a provisional basis, I'm going to proceed to lead you on the events that we've discussed today. I won't talk about the 1990 Transkei incident, that will be investigated and we will hear what happens.

Now you've been here all day and you've heard the evidence given by the six applicants that gave evidence before you.

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Did you understand what they said?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now did you disagree with anything they said?

MR MARINGA: I cannot say I disagree with them.

MR RICHARD: Now ...

MR MARINGA: But to add.

MR RICHARD: What would you like to add?

MR MARINGA: There was the issue of members of MG Pirates who were killed. The statement was clear from us as comrades when we discussed. Basically it was based on those who were taking an active role, to such an extent that I do not remember even one instance whereby one of the MG supporters who were not taking an active role of killing, was harassed or killed.

MR RICHARD: Can I tell you what I understand by your answer, then tell me yes or no, whether I've understood your statement correctly. What I understand you to say is that not one of the Easter MG Pirate Soccer Club members who got killed were innocent of attacking the UDF comrades.

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now just listen and follow the questions. Now, today we've heard evidence of six different events, the first one being the killing of Whisky Lulu Louw. Now my question there is, did you know Mr Louw?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now what role did you play in his killing?

MR MARINGA: I never played a role in that.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear about his killing?

MR MARINGA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: How long after he was killed did you both hear about it?

MR MARINGA: The same day.

MR RICHARD: And what was your reaction?

MR MARINGA: The reaction was to applaud my other comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is relative to the bus incident. Were you one of the active role players in the attack on the bus?

MR MARINGA: No.

MR RICHARD: And again, did you only hear of the event after it had happened?

MR MARINGA: Yes, I heard.

MR RICHARD: And did you associate yourself with what your comrades had done?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Then the third incident is the killing of Mr Masebuko by Sipo Ngwenya. Did you play any active role in that event?

MR MARINGA: No, there was no active role.

MR RICHARD: And, let me put it this way. Which of the events that you heard today did you play an active role?

MR MARINGA: If I'm not mistaken it's case number 4.

MR RICHARD: Case number 4? Now that was the killing of the three vigilantes. What role did you play there?

MR MARINGA: I went there with my fellow comrades. When we arrived before we could get into that particular house or office, if I may say so, we discovered that there were a lot of people inside and since one of them saw us, he reported to them to say: "The comrades are against us", then the door was locked. The only way of us making them to open the door, was to shoot because comrade Ngwenya had a gun in his possession. He shot, but not pointing at any person. Then the door was opened. That is when the stabbings took place.

MR RICHARD: Did you stab anyone?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember who you stabbed?

MR MARINGA: I cannot say who, because it was dark.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember how many people you stabbed?

MR MARINGA: I remember coming face to face with one person.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember that person's name?

MR MARINGA: Like I've said, it was dark, I couldn't see who it was.

MR RICHARD: Now, to what organisation did the people in this coal office, coal house belong?

MR MARINGA: Some were supporters of Eastern MG Pirates, others were players, others were just people who used to stay there.

MR RICHARD: Now when you stabbed people, did you know the difference between residents of the house and Eastern MG Soccer Club supporters or players?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: How?

MR MARINGA: Because we were exchanging words there and one of them, he came to me and I couldn't hurt that guy because when he said to me "Maringa", I started realising who the guy was and I was sure that the guy knows nothing.

MR RICHARD: Now are you certain that you didn't stab innocent bystanders?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And you are also certain that your comrades didn't stab innocent bystanders?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: So in other words, if we look at page 1 of the bundle, that's the summary of the events, where the author describes Sipo Ngwenya and five other unnamed UDF members, you were one of those five?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Who were the other four?

MR MARINGA: The other four was Sipo, Dida Twala and Papa Nkabinde are late.

MR RICHARD: Can you remember any more?

MR MARINGA: No.

MR RICHARD: Now with regard to the other incidents that I haven't mentioned, you've already replied to me that you didn't take an active part in them and you knew about them afterwards. Is it correct that once you heard about the incidents, you as a member of the UDF, associated yourself with what your comrades had done?

MR MARINGA: Yes, I did so.

MR RICHARD: Now in relation to the times, I'm going to put a proposition to you with which you must either agree or disagree. If you think I'm wrong, please tell the Committee.

I am right when I say that at the time during 1987, any particular person or association was seen to work in co-operation with the police, or giving evidence to the police or working in co-operation with the apartheid local Councillors, they were seen as "impimpis" and enemies of the liberation struggle?

MR MARINGA: It was like that.

MR RICHARD: Now it is also true that you as members of the UDF in Standerton, saw the members and supporters and players of the Eastern MG Soccer Club as "impimpis" and enemies of the liberation struggle?

MR MARINGA: yes.

MR RICHARD: Now for how long were you in the UDF?

MR MARINGA: I was a member of UDF from 1985.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hold any positions in that organisation or in its structures?

MR MARINGA: It was like this. It was not being an office bearer as such, because of we had no offices in town and the organisation was not recognised by the then apartheid government, seeing that we had to say, like the person next to me, we used to say: "You are going to be a Chairman" when we were supposed to have meetings and usually we used to be given or to give each other some certain tasks to do, that's why I'm saying it was not to be an office bearer in that sense.

CHAIRPERSON: But you played an active role in the affairs of the organisation, would that be correct, or incorrect?

MR MARINGA: Yes, I did.

ADV BOSMAN: Just while you're busy Chairperson, did you participate in that decision on the 3rd of January when it was decided that you would attack the supporters and the members of the team of Pirates?

MR MARINGA: Yes, we reached an agreement on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Were you charged in connection with the matter of Mabisi, in these incidents that we're talking about today?

MR MARINGA: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only one that you were charged for?

MR MARINGA: I was discharged to all other cases.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no, no, was this the only case where you were taken to court? The only incident that you were taken to court for was Mabisi?

MR MARINGA: No, that was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about just these six incidents that we're talking about today, were you charged with any one of the other?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it just Mabisi?

MR MARINGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you taken to Court for any of the other incidents that we spoke about here today?

MR MARINGA: Yes, I did, but I was acquitted before the case was even tried.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were acquitted on all of these, the incidents that we're talking about here that happened in Standerton, you were acquitted. You were never convicted for any of these incidents?

MR MARINGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The thing that you were convicted of and that you are in prison for, is the other incident down in the old Transkei.

MR MARINGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.

MR MARINGA: But to elaborate further there.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I don't want to talk about that Transkei matter, I just was to confirm that we understand your situation correctly.

MR MARINGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. Yes, any cross-examination Mr Nyawuza?

MR NYAWUZA: Only to clear the air as regards the incidents on which he was arrested. I think I'll have to ask him one by one.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Mr Maringa, were you arrested for the killing of Lulu Louw?

MR MARINGA: I was arrested but I was not charged.

MR NYAWUZA: And then for the N3 freeway bus attack, were you charged?

MR MARINGA: No.

MR NYAWUZA: And then for the killing of Mr Masebuko?

MR MARINGA: I was not charged although I was kept for a night at the police station.

MR NYAWUZA: And then for the killing of the three vigilantes, Mr Mabuleka Dlamini, Esau Twala and Mzwaike Mhlapo?

MR MARINGA: I was arrested and charged.

MR NYAWUZA: And what subsequently happened to the case?

MR MARINGA: I was discharged from that case.

MR NYAWUZA: And then on the assault and killing of Mr Mabisi?

MR MARINGA: No.

MR NYAWUZA: And then on the shooting of Mr Spundla Mpila?

MR MARINGA: No.

MR NYAWUZA: Okay. No further questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Has the Panel got any other questions.

ADV BOSMAN: I've got no questions, thank you Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR RICHARD: No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Maringa, thank you, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses?

MR RICHARD: I re-call Mr Ngwenya.

CHAIRPERSON: You re-call Mr Ngwenya? Very well. Mr Ngwenya.

SIPO A NGWENYA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Ngwenya, we've just heard Mr Maringa give evidence.

MR NGWENYA: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Who organised the completion of the applications for amnesty for you and your comrades?

MR NGWENYA: We wrote a letter requesting application forms from the Cape Town office. That letter was posted by fast mail.

MR RICHARD: Did you organise the getting of the forms and the completion of the forms?

MR NGWENYA: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone assist you in doing that?

MR NGWENYA: No one assisted us, it was just the comrades and we were together as we wrote the form and filled it in. However, we did not receive any assistance from a legal adviser or somebody of that nature.

MR RICHARD: Now the six of you who gave evidence first, did you also give them forms to complete and collect the forms from them?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I did. I gave them the forms and I collected them thereafter.

MR RICHARD: Now, I would like to show you pages 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. Now that is Philip Toto Madonsela's application for amnesty. Now who gave him this application form?

MR NGWENYA: The forms were posted in one envelope.

MR RICHARD: No, you're not answering my question. Who gave Mr Madonsela this form? Did you give it to him?

MR NGWENYA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now on the 14th of April 1998, who arranged for Mr Madonsela, as is evidenced by page 9, to go to the Standerton Magistrate's Court and to take an oath?

MR NGWENYA: We were all together as comrades when we went to the Magistrate's Court. I also had Mr Maringa's form on that occasion and we all proceeded to the Magistrate's Court to take the oath so that the forms could be then posted to Cape Town.

MR RICHARD: And so it's not surprising that when I compare page 41 to page 9, that all these affidavits are dated 14 April 1998, because you all went down to the Standerton Magistrate's Court to swear the oath.

MR NGWENYA: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Now how did the form get to Mr Maringa? Did you take it to him?

MR NGWENYA: I took it personally to Leeukop Prison.

MR RICHARD: Now did Mr Maringa sit down there and then during that visit and complete the form, or did you leave the form with him?

MR NGWENYA: I did not leave it, I sat there whilst he filled it.

MR RICHARD: And then, did you remember what crimes he made application for amnesty for?

MR NGWENYA: He applied for incidents that took place in Standerton as well as the crime that was committed in Transkei.

MR RICHARD: Did you read the form yourself and see that is what he said in his application form?

MR NGWENYA: When he filled it in, we were together and we discussed it as he was writing.

MR RICHARD: Now when it came to taking the oath, how did you go about doing that?

MR NGWENYA: I took Mr Maringa's form to the Standerton Magistrate's Court on the 14th of April, so that when we all went to take the oath at the Magistrate's Court, I also took Mr Maringa's form along.

MR RICHARD: And did the person who took the oaths sign Mr Maringa's form in his absence?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, the oath was taken and the form was stamped.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know who signed the form and put the stamp on it? Do you know the person's name?

MR NGWENYA: I do know the person, but I've forgotten his surname.

MR RICHARD: Now you had seven applications which were now in your opinion completed, what did you do with them?

MR NGWENYA: We then went to the post office and we posted them to Cape Town by fast mail.

MR RICHARD: So then, I haven't checked all six that are in the bundle, but it's not surprising that if I compare page 4 to page 86, it appears that both those amnesty applications were received on the 22nd of April 1998. You see the date stamp? Now think very carefully, was Mr Maringa's application in that bundle of seven applications that you posted to Cape Town?

MR NGWENYA: I am certain it is so. There may have been a problem because myself and Toto Madonsela experienced difficulty to the effect that the Cape Town office informed us that they had not received our form, when we explained that they had been sent in one bundle, they later then recovered them.

MR RICHARD: Who did you speak to at the Cape Town office when you had the trouble?

MR NGWENYA: I cannot recall the lady I spoke to.

MR RICHARD: But your answer is none the less clear, you had seven applications, which included the six, whose applications were heard today, plus Mr Maringa's application, that makes seven and all seven were posted to Cape Town.

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I swear that is the truth.

MR RICHARD: And did anyone else see you post the envelope or help you post the envelope to Cape Town?

MR NGWENYA: All of us except Mr Maringa were there when we went to the Post Office.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Nyawuza, have you got any?

MR NYAWUZA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Yes, maybe just one question from me, Mr Chairman. Sorry, can you just tell us, amongst yourselves who was responsible for the actual filling in of the forms because I see that the handwriting looks very much the same in all these forms?

MR NGWENYA: I filled all my form. Some were assisted by comrade Sipo Dlamini. He would read the question from the form and he would give the response.

ADV SANDI: Are you sure? Because the handwriting looks very much the same in all of them. I look particularly at the S of Standerton. The S shape is similar in all of them.

MR NGWENYA: Page 97 is my handwriting. Page 68 is Mr Sipo Dlamini's handwriting.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may come in, I think the handwriting of Dlamini and Ngwenya, the handwritings are very similar, but Sipo, if you check the e, I also checked that, they are totally different.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm happy to be in the presence of such distinguished experts on this field, so I bow to your authority.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just ask you one question Mr Ngwenya, which isn't clear to me. The affirmation, the person who took the oath, did he also sign Mr Maringa's form?

MR NGWENYA: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Because that I don't quite understand. Who took the oath to say that what was in Mr Maringa's form is right, because Mr Maringa wasn't there.

MR NGWENYA: We went to the Chief Magistrate's office and the forms were submitted there. I and other comrades were known in the Standerton area, because we had been in and out of prison, so the Magistrate just stamped all the forms, after we'd explained to him that we were making applications to the TRC. We thereafter took those forms and put them in one envelope and sent them to Cape Town.

ADV SANDI: I understood you to say that you have forgotten the name of this Magistrate. Can you please give us a physical description? How does he look like?

MR NGWENYA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: How did he or she look like, this Commissioner of Oaths? Could you just say how this person looked like?

MR NGWENYA: He's about that tall. He was with us, he spoke to the clerk and we were shown inside the office and he wore spectacles. On that day he wore a white shirt, a red tie, with a Court emblem.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Could we perhaps try this. If you look at page 92 for instance, there is the Magistrate's signature, if it was a Magistrate, there is his signature. Doesn't that prompt your memory in regard to his name at all?

MR NGWENYA: No, I do not want to lie, it does not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand you correctly? Did the office of the Commission in Cape Town at one stage tell you that your own form and the form of Madonsela was not there in the office?

MR NGWENYA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you told them but you sent all these forms together?

MR NGWENYA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they then look again and then later found your form and Madonsela's form as well?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, they informed so by way of a letter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Mtanga, what was that second cut-off date?

MS MTANGA: It was 30th September 1997 or 1998, Chairperson, I'm not sure. 98, 30th September 1998.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think so, ja. Yes, thank you. Have you got ...

MR RICHARD: I have no further questions for this witness. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD

MR RICHARD: I don't think I can take it further. I would ask the Committee for an indication. The evidence has been that all six, or most of the six were in the process of signing affidavits and posting affidavits, do I really need to call any more than Mr Ngwenya, which I've done? I don't believe I need to.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask you just one other thing, just about dates. Mr Maringa seems to be under the impression that he signed these things in 97 and the forms were attested or signed by the Commissioner of Oaths on the 14th of April 1998. Now can you just be of some assistance there, Mr Ngwenya? Is Mr Maringa correct when he says he completed it in 97, or is he mistaken about that date, because you only signed it before the Magistrate in April of 98.

MR NGWENYA: Thank you Chair. I think he is confusing the years because there was no way of recording everything not anticipating this problem. I think that's the reason why he is confusing the dates. That is why in some instances we indicate that we cannot recall the dates, because we were not recording everything as things were unfolding.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not for example sitting around with his form for months before you sent it to Cape Town? Did you try to do all these as quickly as possible?

MR NGWENYA: Chair, the forms did not spend even two weeks with us. Upon received of the forms we filled them in and that one particular weekend I drove to Leeukop Prison to complete the form with Mr Maringa and we went back to Court for a stamp and a signature.

CHAIRPERSON: They were with you for about two weeks roughly, it couldn't have been much longer than that.

MR NGWENYA: Indeed so, not even the whole week upon receipt. We received the forms on that particular day, filled them in and on the weekend drove to Leeukop because we wanted to post them back speedily because the closing date was nearing.

CHAIRPERSON: So Maringa's form must have been filled in in 1998?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright, that clarifies it, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard the evidence doesn't seem to be in dispute, so I don't believe that its going to add significantly either way to call all of the remaining applicants to come and confirm that that is what happened, so although it's your call ...

MR RICHARD: I'm more than happy not to call the next five persons to give evidence about what happened in the post office and what happened in the Magistrate's office. I think it's on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, as I say, look, it doesn't appear to be in dispute, so in terms of weight it's neither here nor there, really.

MR RICHARD: And on that note, I close the applicants' case.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Nyawuza.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. The victim, being Mr Aubrey Mabola, Mr Aubrey Mabola had to leave for East London but he advised me that he's withdrawing his testimony that he wanted to testify and the in that both he and Mr Mpila are going to confirm what the applicants have said and in the light thereof, we don't see any reason why we should call them because they'll be saying the same thing that transpired during that era. So in the light thereof we are not going to call any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Nyawuza, we've noted that and it is correct indeed that we have heard quite a great deal of evidence about that situation, so I think there's merit in your decision in that regard. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no evidence to lead, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard, on the merits of the amnesty applications as well as the position of Mr Maringa, any submissions?

MR RICHARD IN ARGUMENT: On the merits of the applications, I submit firstly that the six applicants whose applications were enrolled for hearing today, were made in compliance with the Act. No challenge has been raised. If a challenge were to be raised, the form of their completion might have been an issue, in other words, I don't think I can really submit that each applicant applied in specific detail for all the transaction that he might have applied for amnesty for, if we

were going to take a super-technical approach to the completion of the amnesty applications. So that means in relation to the form of the application, my submission is that on the face of each application, it is clear which sequence of transactions the applicant wanted to apply for amnesty for. The fact that the evidence today goes further than the particular application form and spell out more and better detail and particularity should not be held against them. In other words, it's not a case where no information at all was disclosed. I'm comparing it to other matters where from a victims point of view made a case that, where nothing is disclosed there is no application, but where something is disclosed, which is developed in evidence, there is a good application and I draw a big distinction between the two, so I do not believe that the form should be held to the prejudice or detriment of any particular applicant.

Then in relation to the substance and merit of the applications, we have a straightforward and what has now become typical situation. The United Democratic Front members were confronted with the reality that some of their members had been attacked and killed by persons who were perceived and I stress the word perceived, to be collaborators with the South African Police and supporters of the apartheid Councillors of the time. Whether objectively that was in fact true, is not necessarily the test. The test is only whether that perception stands a critical and close examination.

It is not seriously contested that the members of the Easter MG Pirates Soccer organisation did not co-operate with the police, in fact the evidence is to the contrary, they were seen to be in co-operation with the police. Taking into account the circumstances of the time, the environment, the killings and the reality of tit for tat violence, I don't believe that there was anything frivolous or irrational about how the UDF activists perceived members of the MG Pirates Football Club.

So indeed it is submitted that in relation to each of the attacks and murders and assaults outlined in the six events under discussion, it is correct to hold and I submit proper to hold that there were attacks on people perceived and held in the bona fide belief of my clients to be opponents of the liberation struggle against whom, as my Learned Colleague admits, there was a war against, there was a state of war.

When I refer to my Learned Colleague and the facts of the matter, it is well to note that my Learned Colleague makes the assertion that were he to have called his witnesses, they would corroborate and confirm what was said, so I do not believe that there can be any serious challenge to the facts of the matter.

I must address the Committee further on the political nature of the acts. There I can be short. The victims of the attacks at the time, were perceived to be enemies, people who killed members of the United Democratic Front and it is plain that their killing was an act done in furtherance of the UDF and it's principle, the African National Congress.

Proportionality needs to be considered. In this case, certainly attempted murder and murder and necklacing were perpetrated but as has been held in many amnesty applications, in the context of the mid eighties to the early nineties, taking into account the emotional fever, the pitch, the political passion felt at the time, drastic though the remedies might have been, disproportionate not.

Full disclosure. I believe that in this matter, it is easy to argue that most of the applicants, by coming forward, in fact rendered themselves liable to prosecution, not to release from a conviction and they came forward and confidently and with candour, disclosed many matters which are very painful for most to recount and it was with precise and particular detail and there was no avoidance of awkward or difficult situations.

In the circumstances, it is my submission that as the requirements of the Act have been satisfied, certainly the first six applicants are entitled to the amnesty for and there I look at the summary: The murder of Whisky Lulu Louw. In that case there was no abduction. Then in relation to the second incident, there I believe the acts for which amnesty should be sought are arson, malicious damage to property and attempted murder. The third one and that is the killing of Mr Masebuko, there I believe it's simple murder. The fourth, there again there was no abduction or kidnapping, so its straightforward murder, as with the fifth and then with relation to the sixth, there the victim survived, so it's attempted murder.

Now Mr Maringa's situation needs particular consideration. On the evidence presented today, even though there is no proof that an application was received in Cape Town, the overwhelming probability of the evidence heard is that indeed one was received and that is was received timeously and in proper form. The only question ironically is the attestation of the oath.

When I led the witness in this regard, I decided that it was appropriate to argue that even if the Commissioner did not attest the oath properly and in the manner prescribed by the legislation, it should not be held as a fatal error in the application and should be condoned. The applicant was in prison, he was assisted by a non-legally trained comrade and they did all they could with their non-legal minds to comply with the Act and to penalise the applicant, the seventh applicant, I believe would be to perpetrate and injustice.

My submission in that regard is that his evidence should in the circumstances be treated as if there is a proper application before this Committee. No further evidence or investigations is needed and in fact will contribute nothing. I would point out that if the investigations in the Cape Town office reveal that they can find nothing, it establishes nothing to negate that an application was made timeously and my submission is, and my request to the Committee is that it find that there is a proper application for it.

I'm aware that that finding in relation to the Umtata 1990 event, has consequences because it would have the consequence of requiring that amnesty application to be heard, but in my submission that would achieve the purpose and the intent of the Act, not defeat it. The man, on the face of it, in relation to the 1990 event, certainly it has not been established, but prima facie, committed a crime with the required political motivation and is entitled to have an amnesty application heard by a Committee and that consequence is not one which I think should persuade the Committee not to allow the Standerton sequence of events to be treated as properly proved and established and to make a decision. I leave it in the hands of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nyawuza.

MR NYAWUZA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Since we mentioned that the application of the applicants is not opposed in any way, I would wish to add that in relation to the signature on Mr Maringa's alleged amnesty application form, the Committee will realise from the testimony that has been led that the applicants before the Committee are very unsophisticated people, even their struggle was not one with hand grenades, bombs and AK47's. That should be noted and even in the application forms, they didn't have the opportunity of the application forms being filled by the Priscilla Janas or the Paula MacBrides, they did everything on their own, so I would add on my Learned Colleagues submission that the "unsophistication" of their struggle should be taken into cognisance when Mr Maringa's application for amnesty for today's deeds, is taken into cognisance. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no submissions to make.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Anything further that you might wish to add? I know it's a dangerous invitation, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct) to rest.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well thank you very much. That concludes the hearing of this matter. There are obviously matters that we will have to look into further and to consider before we are in a position to prepare a decision in this matter, but even so, we want to give the indication that we always give, that in spite of all these drawbacks and in spite of the pressures that are brought to bear on the Committee we do our best to decide these matters as soon as circumstances permit. This matter will be not exception, so we will have to, in the circumstances, reserve the decision in the matter and we will then notify the parties with an interest as to the outcome of the application. So the decision will be reserved.

Mr Richard we thank you for your assistance and Mr Nyawuza for your assistance as well and of course Ms Mtanga. I need say no more. We appreciate it.

That takes care of the role for today, I hope.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, that's the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking that we adjourn at this stage? Very well. Tomorrow is Friday and we have some matters that stood over until tomorrow from earlier in the week, so I'm going to adjourn the proceedings, Ms Mtanga, until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning in the hope that we will be able to complete our matters at a decent hour tomorrow. So we'll adjourn and reconvene at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning and you're excused. Thank you.