DATE: 6TH OCTOBER 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We would like to start the proceedings. For the record it is Friday the 6th of October 2000. We are continuing with the session of the Amnesty Committee at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. The Leader of Evidence is still Ms Mtanga and the matter that is before us this morning, the first matter, is that of Paulus Mokhali. It's a continuation of the application that stood down on Wednesday, if I'm not mistaken, till this morning. Mr Makanjee, you appeared for the applicant at that stage and you still appear for him. What is the position with the matter?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chair, due to the time constraints the witnesses that my client had supplied have not been able to be located and we are asking for a postponement of this matter sine die.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Makanjee, what is your attitude?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm not objecting to the application.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your situation?

MS MAKHUBELA: I have no objection Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes. The matter started off before us earlier this week and it stood down until this morning because it was apparent at that stage that the matter was set down at a stage when not everything had been done, or an insufficient opportunity was allowed for everything to be done in order to enable the application to be fully ventilated before us. We let the matter then stand down until this morning in the hope that we could possibly dispose of the matter, still in the course of this particular session because it's obviously more convenient from the point of view of the Committee if we are in a position to dispose of matters in one session. However, the practicalities are always subject to the interests of justice and as much as we are anxious to dispose of these matters with the least possible delay, we must ensure that at least what we do is in the interests of justice and that all of the parties with an interest in matters before us, particularly the applicants, are given sufficient opportunities within reason to put their case before us.

It was indicated that between Wednesday and this morning, which allowed something like a day, a clear day really only, it was not possible to deal with the outstanding matters that the applicant intended to deal with and to collect the information that the applicant feels ought to be placed before us in support of his application. Under those circumstances Mr Makanjee who appears for the applicant, has applied for the matter to be postponed sine die, there's no objection to the application. We are satisfied that it is in the interests of justice to grant the application and in the circumstances the matter will be postponed sine die.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. May we be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Makanjee, you're excused and is this your only commitment here?

MR MAKANJEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It's been very unfortunate but we will have to release you. Thank you very much for your assistance. You're excused. Ms Mtanga, what else have we got today, if anything?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, our next matter on roll is the application of Selepe.

CHAIRPERSON: Selepe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well the next matter on the roll would then be the amnesty application of Molefe Michael Selepe, the reference number is AM7154/97. I'm going to give an opportunity to the legal representatives to put themselves on record on behalf of the applicant. Mr Knopp, you can just put yourself on record, just to start with.

MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson. The name is Knopp, Advocate initials H A, I shall be representing the applicant Molefe Michael Selepe in this application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. ...(indistinct) Yes, Mr Knopp, is there anything else you want to put on record or do you want your client to take the oath and proceed with his testimony?

MR KNOPP: He can take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we shall do that.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Knopp.

EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Selepe you are the applicant in this matter?

MR SELEPE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: How old are you now?

MR SELEPE: I'm 35 years old.

MR KNOPP: And are you presently serving out a sentence in a prison?

MR SELEPE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Which prison is that?

MR SELEPE: ...(indistinct) Maximum Prison.

MR KNOPP: Is that in Cullinan area?

MR SELEPE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: And were you convicted and sentenced in connection with that thing in 1992 in the Boksburg Regional Court?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct, pertaining to a 1992 incident, or incidents.

MR KNOPP: And you effective total sentence was 91 years.

MR SELEPE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Those convictions were inter alia two counts of murder, four counts of robbery and four counts of escape.

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat.

MR KNOPP: Two counts of murder, four counts of robber and four counts of escape.

MR SELEPE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Is it also correct that this is not the first time that you have appeared before the Amnesty Committee of the TRC for amnesty application?

MR SELEPE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: You appeared before another tribunal consisting of Judges Pillay, de Jager and Motata.

MR SELEPE: Correct.

MR KNOPP: And in that application you applied for amnesty concerning what is known as the Dawn Park incident for October 1992 and secondly the Kliprivier Police Station incident about 1993.

MR SELEPE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Chairperson I refer the Tribunal to the bundle, pages 12 to 20 which contains the decision of that amnesty application, so in that application, according to the decision, you were granted amnesty concerning these incidents?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I was granted amnesty.

MR KNOPP: So today's application concerns an incident during July 1993, an attack on the occupants of a certain house on the East Rand.

MR SELEPE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: I forgot to canvass with you, the decision to grant you amnesty in that previous amnesty application, that will affect your term of imprisonment that you are serving now or reduce that term, is that correct? Because some of those convictions of murder and robber are part of this amnesty application?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct, but not the one that I'm appearing for today.

MR KNOPP: Just some background. Were you a member of the ANC?

MR SELEPE: Correct.

MR KNOPP: When did you become a member?

MR SELEPE: From the unbanning of the ANC and before that I was a member of the UDF.

MR KNOPP: What does UDF stand for?

MR SELEPE: United Democratic Front.

MR KNOPP: And were you involved at all in the so-called SDUs, Self Defence Units?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I was a Commander of the SDUs.

MR KNOPP: Did you receive any training as a member of Commander of the SDU?

MR SELEPE: Not at all.

MR KNOPP: For which area were you Commander?

MR SELEPE: At Slovo Section.

MR KNOPP: Is that on the East Rand?

MR SELEPE: Thokoza, East Rand, yes.

MR KNOPP: Now during that time on the East Rand, were there any problems between the Inkatha Freedom Party Members and the ANC members and the SDU?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes from 1990 there were problems of conflict between the IFP and the ANC members.

MR KNOPP: Was this peaceful conflict, or a violent conflict?

CHAIRPERSON: There was conflict, political conflict.

MR KNOPP: Was there violence involved, were people injured?

CHAIRPERSON: Correct.

MR KNOPP: Now would you relate to the Tribunal what happened in July 1993.

MR SELEPE: That was the day when I attacked the IFP base at Nkosi Street in Thokoza, it was during the day around 12 o'clock. We had identified a particular house as being occupied by the IFP in the section. The owner of the house was present but there were also other people from the hostel, people who were using the house as their base and they would launch their attacks from the house in the evenings and during the day our observation noted that the house was always locked and the gates locked, with curtains drawn. You would not see anybody and because we had already gathered information about the presence of these people, I instructed that it be attacked with a view to threatening them and getting them to move out. I was accompanied by other SDU members, three of them and we came across another fourth SDU member along the way whose name was Sikumbuso. There was Fanisa Nedisi and Nati and when we arrived, I opened the gate, not realising that a chain had been wrapped around the gate and upon attempting to open it, it cracked, making noise and I decided to jump, climbed onto a steel fence and as I was doing that, I could see curtains moving inside the house and I concluded that they heard what was happening.

As I was climbing the steel fence, that is when I heard gun shots being fired from inside the house towards our direction. That's when I fell down. I fell into the yard and my fellow comrades returned fire into the windows from where we were being shot and in the process I tried to take cover and I can say we changed fire for some few minutes until such time as I could secure cover. I also had a pistol and I, in the process, fled to the next-door house. I was now safe and the gunfire stopped. We then left because we knew that the police and soldiers would soon be on the scene because they had heard the gunfire. I then took the firearms and stopped them.

I then went to the shop. As I was inside the shop, one lady who was a neighbour came to me and said to me: "Molefe, do not go back home because there are soldiers and the police looking for you" and I did as advised, I hung around at the shop. I went to a friend whose home was at the shop area and I would go back home later.

I think it was after three hours or so, I went back home and I was to go past the very same shop where I found this lady. I saw a police van coming from the opposite, or the direction of the shop and because I was being sought by the police for a long time, I got into the shop and I heard the vehicle stopping in front of the shop and they came in. That is when they pointed firearms at me, declaring that I was now under arrest and I resisted because I wanted to know on what charges and they didn't and they locked me in the van and they took some of my things, things like my watch. I removed my watch, my ring and bracelet and put them in my pocket. They searched me and confiscated these things and when I got inside the van, I then realised that the van was driving towards the place where we had just launched an attack.

When we got there, there were now many people milling around and there were also IFP leadership among these people and Mr Mjave, whom I knew, the owner of the house if I'm not mistaken, came out and the opened the van on the side and as they did so, they asked him as to whether this is the person for identification purposes and he responded in the positive and we then drove to the police station through Khumalo Street.

There was this hostel called Katuza and when we got there, we found many IFP members. These people stopped the police van and the police got out, that is the police who had arrested me and there was a Mr Buthelezi who was driving this police vehicle and he spoke to the hostel dwellers, whom we regarded as IFP members and he said to them: "Zulu, we have now captured Molefe, whom we have been looking for". We were just next to the gate and these people said: "Would you please not arrest him, just hand him over to us". The sides of the van were open. I remember one of them put through the fence, something that was very sharp, a sharp object that injured me on the leg.

There were Peace Committee members from the township and they came to the place where this throng of people was milling around and as the Peace Committee members came, I shouted from inside the van, asking for help because I was now aware that these people were forcing the police to hand over to them and the Peace Committee members inquired from the police as to why were they bringing me to the hostel, instead of arresting me. I don't know how they responded and after that the Peace Committee vehicle escorted me to Thokoza police station.

You see, the police station was at the time such that we did not hold it in confidence because we viewed the police as part who colluded, we regarded the police as part of the IFP.

The IFP members had followed the vehicle to the police station and when they arrived there, they surrounded the police station. I realised that I was no longer safe, because the IFP leadership was also present there. I then requested to speak to the Station Commander Mr Funani. I then said to Mr Funani that he should transfer me to the nearest police station and it was obvious that I was no longer safe because there were also IFP members inside the police station who were busy hurling insults at me.

As I was still being held at the waiting cells, I was thereafter called by Mr Funani, who gave me permission to call an attorney or a relative. After a while, the members of the Stability Unit arrived and I was escorted to a police station nearby, the Katlehong police station.

This incident happened on a Thursday and I was kept there until the following Monday, on which day I went to Court. When I had been visited during the weekend, the police had informed my family that I would be taken to Germiston, however, on Monday I was taken to the Alberton Court, where I was refused bail. I thereafter went to the Boksburg police prison. On the second occasion I went to Court and bail was refused again. On that occasion, I had a legal representative so that when we went to Court, the Court granted bail.

MR KNOPP: Mr Selepe, although you were armed at the time of the incident with a firearm, did you fire any shots?

MR SELEPE: There was an exchange of gunfire.

MR KNOPP: Yes, but the question is, did you yourself personally fire any shots at the house?

MR SELEPE: I personally did not fire any shots, although I had a firearm in my possession. The comrades who were shooting towards the house, were doing so to protect me, so that I could take cover.

MR KNOPP: Were those comrades under your command in this attack?

MR SELEPE: That's correct.

MR KNOPP: Mr Selepe, as far as you are aware, were any of the occupants of that house either killed or injured as a result of the shots?

MR SELEPE: As far as I'm aware, I did not witness any person who was injured. That is why, when they put a charge of attempted murder, I did not understand, I had first thought that they would charge me with malicious damage to property.

MR KNOPP: In that regard, you've never stood trial for this instant?

MR SELEPE: No, I was never prosecuted.

MR KNOPP: Was any part of the house damaged from these shots?

MR SELEPE: I assume that there were some parts that were damaged, it was ...(indistinct) that he fired towards it.

MR KNOPP: Such as what, the windows?

MR SELEPE: It is possible that the windows were broken.

MR KNOPP: Mr Selepe, the firearm and ammunition of which you were in possession that day, was that firearm and ammunition licensed or not?

MR SELEPE: No, the firearms and ammunition were illegal.

MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. Just give us an idea of the types of firearms that were in your possession on that day.

MR SELEPE: On that day, I had a 9 mm Beretta.

CHAIRPERSON: Beretta Pistol?

MR SELEPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What else?

MR SELEPE: The other SDU members had two AK47s and one pump gun.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) What else or was that all?

MR SELEPE: That is correct, we had four firearms in total.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this the arms of the SDU?

MR SELEPE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have a few questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Selepe, you've testified that the reason that you attacked this house, its because you believed it was used as an IFP base, is that correct?

MR SELEPE: That's correct.

MS MTANGA: Do you have any knowledge as to who was the owner of the house, or who were the occupants of the house?

MR SELEPE: I was a leader in the civic association and the one person who regularly attended such meetings of that organisation was Mr Mtshali.

MS MTANGA: Did Mr Mtshali hold any position with you in the IFP? If so, what position did he hold?

MR SELEPE: I do not have knowledge thereof.

MS MTANGA: The house that you attacked, can you give us the address where this took place? The house that you attacked, where was it located? What is the address?

MR SELEPE: It's on Nkosi Street, I am not certain of the house number.

MS MTANGA: And during the trial, did you hear if Mr Mtshali was injured or any person in the house was injured?

MR SELEPE: I did not get to hear of such information. As far as I'm aware, no one was injured.

MS MTANGA: Did you see Mr Ntjaie at your trial or do you know if he attended the trial?

MR SELEPE: When I went to Court on the first occasion, I saw him there. On the second occasion he was also present.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Just one question. Do you by any chance know the full names of Mr Mtshali?

MR SELEPE: No, I just know him as Mr Mtshali.

ADV SANDI: And those firearms, where did you get them from?

MR SELEPE: We used to get them through various means. Some were bought from contributions made by the Community.

ADV SANDI: But they belonged to the SDUs?

MR SELEPE: Yes, they did.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Selepe, what information did you have that this was an IFP base?

MR SELEPE: We received information on three occasions to the effect that that was an IFP base. On the first occasion a child was shot at Tshisko Tuck Shop. The owner of that Tuck Shop had refused to donate R50 towards the purchase of firearms for the IFP.

ADV BOSMAN: We don't need to go into all the detail. That's the one piece of information and the second, you said you had three bits of information, the second one?

MR SELEPE: On the second occasion, some IFP members wanted to attack me whilst I was at the Tuck Shop and they fetched their firearms from Mr Mtshali's home.

ADV BOSMAN: Right, and the third?

MR SELEPE: That was on the occasion when they had awaited me at my home and when I came out, they fled towards Mr Mtshali's home.

ADV BOSMAN: Now the day you went there for the attack, did you know that there would be shooting, or did you foresee there would be shooting?

MR SELEPE: When we went there, I did expect that there might be shooting because I was aware that the occupants of the house were also armed.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you think that maybe someone would get killed in this shooting?

MR SELEPE: The intention was to threaten them to drive them away from the house.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Selepe, just listen to my question. We understand you said you went there to attack the house to scare these people to warn them, but you had firearms. Did you think someone might get killed in the shooting? If there was shooting, did you foresee that someone may be killed?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I did expect it.

ADV BOSMAN: So you understand now why you were charged with attempted murder.

MR SELEPE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Knopp, if any.

MR KNOPP: No re-examination Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selepe, you're excused thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case of the applicant?

MR KNOPP: That is the case for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Any evidence Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no evidence but I would like to place on record the details of the victim that we have.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

MS MTANGA: According to the police docket, his name is Zeblon Mtshali. The last known address of the victim is 233 Dube Street, Penduka Section, Thokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: That is all Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Mr Knopp?

MR KNOPP IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairperson, I would submit firstly that the application does comply with the technical requirements of Act 34 of 1995. Secondly I would submit respectfully that the acts or offences were those associated with a definite political motive and thirdly, I would submit respectfully that the applicant has made full disclosure of all the relevant facts in the case. I would therefore request that the Tribunal grant the applicant amnesty in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: For attempted murder?

MR KNOPP: Attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition?

MR KNOPP: Yes, firearms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: And malicious injury to property?

MR KNOPP: Malicious injury to property.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson I have no submissions to make. I would like to leave this matter in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you very much. That concludes the formalities in regard to this matter. The Panel will consider the application and the evidence and the submissions and will endeavour to produce a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit, but presently, the decision in this matter will be reserved and Mr Knopp, if you don't have any other commitments before us, then we will excuse you and thank you for your assistance this week.

MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, our next matter is the application of Mr Nontlantane. Mr Buka Mohalaba is appearing for Mr Nontlantane. I don't see both of them here. I'm not sure if he has arrived or not, because he's the person that we've been waiting for.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want us just to stand down for a few minutes, just to ascertain what's going on?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We shall do that. We'll stand down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: The next matter on the role is the amnesty application of Temba Nontlantane, Amnesty Reference AM6226/97. The Panel and the Leader of Evidence are the same. Mr Mohlaba, do you just want to put yourself on record for the applicant?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Buka Mohlaba. I'm appearing for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you want to proceed with the evidence? Do you want your client to be sworn in?

MR MOHLABA: Please Chairperson.

THEMBA NONTLANTANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mohlaba.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Mr Nontlantane, you are the applicant in this matter and did you, during the period 1990/1991 belong to any political organisation?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Can you tell us which organisation was that?

MR NONTLANTANE: African National Congress.

MR MOHLABA: Did you occupy any position with the African National Congress?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, I was the Regional Organiser.

MR MOHLABA: Did you undergo any military training?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Did you belong to the military wing of the African National Congress?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee when you joined - you became a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe and where did you require your training, undergo your training?

MR NONTLANTANE: I joined in March 1985 in Angola. We were then trained. I was a Section Commander and I was then a Platoon Commander. In 1986 I was sent to Cuba and I was trained there. I came back. When I came back from Cuba, I went back to the Labour Movement and I worked in Zimbabwe and then Umkhonto weSizwe requested me to come back and then I came back in 1990.

MR MOHLABA: When you came back in 1990, where were you posted to?

MR NONTLANTANE: When I came back I was sent to the Northern Transvaal, but I was staying here in Johannesburg and I was told the person to contact when I was inside the country.

MR MOHLABA: Can you tell us who the person was?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, it was Thebogo.

MR MOHLABA: And where was this Thebogo based?

MR NONTLANTANE: Thebogo was also in the Transvaal because we met here in Johannesburg.

MR MOHLABA: Were you, at a certain stage, posted to Mamelodi in Pretoria?

MR NONTLANTANE: According to our demarcation, Northern Transvaal included Johannesburg and Pretoria, so we'd go to Pretoria sometimes.

MR MOHLABA: Do you know of an askari with a pseudonym Stanford, or did you ever hear of him?

MR NONTLANTANE: Stanward, yes I know him.

MR MOHLABA: And you are applying for an amnesty here for conspiring to kill this askari person, is that correct?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to this Committee how you planned this, how you conspired, how you sat down and planned around eliminating this askari person and who was involved? Just explain as widely as possible.

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, I was Thebogo in Pretoria in Mamelodi when we were in the garage. So when we stopped next to the garage, another car stopped next to us and we tried- this guy was Stanward in the car. We tried to talk to him and then we drove away. After that, because we were with him in Angola, we discussed this with Thebogo and we could see that our lives were in danger, it's either we were going to be arrested or killed by the police at that time, so we decided that we should be safe and we should try to come up with a plan to kill him. Thebogo said that he would arrange somebody to come and help us and he would train that person to come and assist us. I was staying in Johannesburg at the time and he came, Thebogo came on one occasion with this man, that was the first time I saw this guy. We trained this man, we trained him on how to use the Makarov and we told him to shoot and kill Stanward. After some few weeks, Thebogo came back again here in Johannesburg and he said that that man tried to kill Stanward, but he could not kill him, but he was injured and he said that this man was arrested, so I left, I went back to the Transkei at home after that.

MR MOHLABA: And how did you know that Stanward was an askari?

MR NONTLANTANE: When I came from Harare, Comrade Chris Hani told me that Stanward defected from the organisation, so we should be careful, we should watch out for those guys when we arrived here.

MR MOHLABA: Do you have anything to add with regard to this incident?

MR NONTLANTANE: No, there's nothing else, except that I heard that he was injured. He did not die and after that I decided to run away. When I came back from the Transkei, I was arrested, but this incident was never mentioned. I was just asked about the training of this guy by the police.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mohlaba. At about what date roughly was this attempt made on the life of Stanward, this askari?

MR NONTLANTANE: It was towards the end of November 1990, but I can't remember the date.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did the attempt happen?

MR NONTLANTANE: According to the report I got it was in the township, in Mamelodi.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the nature of the attack upon this Stanward? What kind of weapon was used?

MR NONTLANTANE: As we gave this man a Makarov and a grenade, I think he used those weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Nontlandane, in which year did you join the ANC?

MR NONTLANTANE: Officially it was in 1985, but I was working underground from 1980.

MS MTANGA: Where did you join, in 1985, where did you join the ANC?

MR NONTLANTANE: In Botswana, Gaborone.

MS MTANGA: When did you leave the country?

MR NONTLANTANE: Late 1984.

MS MTANGA: You also mentioned that you were the Regional Organiser for the MK. In which region were you the organiser? Sorry, Regional Organiser for the ANC, in which region was that?

MR NONTLANTANE: I'm the Regional Organiser now at Lusikisiki Region.

MS MTANGA: You mentioned that your Commander was Thebogo. Were there other people who were members of the unit and if so, what were their names?

MR NONTLANTANE: We just came back to the country so there were no other people he came with.

MS MTANGA: So was it just yourself and Thebogo?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, it was myself and Thebogo at that time.

MS MTANGA: Is there anyone you know who would help us get full details of this Thebogo, his full particulars?

MR NONTLANTANE: I am not sure because I do not know his real name, but he was from Pretoria, that was his pseudonym, Thebogo, so I do not know.

MS MTANGA: You mentioned that you were at some point questioned by the police about the attack on Stanward. When were you questioned about this incident?

MR NONTLANTANE: I said the police did not ask me about this attack, but they asked me about the training of this man that attacked Stanward. They did not ask me questions about this attack.

MS MTANGA: When they asked you about the training that you gave to Stanward, did they mention anything - did they have knowledge or did they link you to the attack on Stanward? Did they have information that linked you to Stanward?

MR NONTLANTANE: They did not say, but they just said that I was arrested because I came in this country illegally and I trained this person.

MS MTANGA: Which police questioned you on this information? Where were the police coming from?

MR NONTLANTANE: In Pretoria.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Just one.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Do you know the name of that askari, Stanward, his full names?

MR NONTLANTANE: No, I don't.

ADV SANDI: And the young man whom you trained?

MR NONTLANTANE: I do not know his name.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question Mr Nontlantane. Are you South African?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: So this allegation of you being illegal, was that sorted out and dropped afterwards?

MR NONTLANTANE: Yes, I can say so, because I did not come back through the border gates, I jumped the fence when I came back to South Africa.

ADV BOSMAN: So it was that it was illegal entry, not that you are an illegal person in South Africa?

MR NONTLANTANE: yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlala, any re-examination?

MR MOHLABA: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Nontlantane, you're excused. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicant?

MR MOHLABA: That's the case for the applicant, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no evidence to lead, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, submissions?

MR MOHLABA IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, the facts speak for themselves. I don't have any submissions, except to ask for amnesty to be granted to the applicant.

ADV SANDI: But the facts never speak for themselves, Mr Mohlaba, unless you give meaning to facts.

MR MOHLABA: Chairperson, unless the Committee wants to hear me on a specific thing, I'll want to submit that there are substantial facts which renders the applicant to qualify for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: According to the speech of the facts, what are the offences that we must give him amnesty for?

MR MOHLABA: Chairperson, amnesty needs to be granted, I submit, for conspiracy to commit murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Conspiracy to commit murder. What else?

MR MOHLABA: And unlawful possession of arms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a Makarov and a hand grenade?

MR MOHLABA: And hand grenade Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there - there seems to have been an attempted killing here, an attempted murder.

MR MOHLABA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does that feature? Does it also come in, are you asking for amnesty for that as well?

MR MOHLABA: For attempted murder as well. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, thank you, Mr Mohlaba. Ms Mtanga, we are told the facts speak for themselves, but as my Colleague rightfully points out, we've never heard them speaking, perhaps you can enlighten us on that.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no submissions to make. I agree with my Colleague that the facts in this matter happen to speak for themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well we're never too old to learn. Yes well, you have consensus Mr Mohlaba, so I assume you don't want to say anything further.

MR MOHLABA: Certainly, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes well thank you very much. The Committee will take time to prepare a decision in the matter. It will be a decision of the Panel. I won't take it any further than that. We'll do it as quickly as we can and we'll notify you once it's ready, so the decision is reserved. Mr Mohlaba, you still have the other matter?

MR MOHLABA: Chairperson, I have another matter, but it will appear that the applicant is not here. We're still trying to see if we can locate him, so I ask this matter to stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly. I was told that there are attempts on the part of the employer of that applicant, so we'll await the outcome of those endeavours and we will stand down until you inform us. So we'll stand down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. The remaining matter on the roll is the application of Kevin Mdlankomo. We have experienced some difficulties in this matter. Mr Mohlaba appears for the applicant in this matter. He is present at the venue and Adv Vilakazi appears for the next of kin of the victim, the deceased in this matter. The applicant has not appeared at the venue up to now. We are mid-way through the day and we have stood the matter down for a while just to try and ascertain his whereabouts or what possibly could be the explanation for his absence here. A lot of efforts have been made, also by the representatives of his present employer, which is the National Intelligence Agency, but to no avail. There is just no indication at this stage as to what could possibly have happened to him. There is no indication before us that his absence can be found to be due to willful conduct on his part. We have in fact been informed that it is reported that someone who had spoken to the applicant in the course of the evening yesterday, had indicated that the applicant has been aware of the fact that he should be here at the JISS Centre this morning in order to have his amnesty application heard, but besides that, there is no other indication or explanation for the fact that he is absent, any indication as to the reason why he is absent from the hearing.

The widow of the victim, Ms Ngema, is also present at the venue. The Amnesty Committee has arranged for her presence. She is ordinarily resident in Swaziland and obviously it has taken some resources in order to secure her attendance here as well, so that is another matter that obviously is relevant in regard to what ought to be happening to this matter.

Now Mr Mohlaba against that background, what is your position at this stage?

MR MOHLABA: Chairperson, I do not have instructions at this stage as I do not know what renders the applicant not to be here, so I will ask to provisionally withdraw from this matter and be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Mtanga, have you got any views as to what we ought to be doing with the matter?

MS MTANGA; Chairperson, I would suggest that we postpone the matter and possibly find time to locate the applicant and just find out if he is still interested in the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Vilakazi, have you got any particular strong view about this matter?

MS VILAKAZI: No particular view except that the widow would not be opposed to a postponement if need be.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well as I've indicated, there is no basis for us to find at this stage that Mr Mdlankomo's absence is due to any willful actions on his part, ignoring his application, after all amnesty applications are things that are submitted to the Committee voluntarily and are pursued by the applicants at their own choice. There is the indication that Mr Mdlankomo was aware from a conversation that he had with somebody who reported that conversation that he should be here today. He's not given anybody any indication that he does not intend to proceed with his amnesty application. On the face of it there doesn't seem to be any reason why he should not wish to proceed with his application and under those circumstances, it would appear to be in the interests of justice for us to concede or exceed to the view of Ms Mtanga to postpone the matter sine die at this stage, to allow further opportunity in order for the Committee to make contact with Mr Mdlankomo and to clarify his application. So under those circumstances, we are going to postpone this matter sine die. We have noted your position Mr Mohlaba and hopefully if the matter comes to fruition at some stage, you might be able to make yourself available again to assist the applicant and likewise to you, Ms Vilakazi, but at this stage we want to thank you for your willingness to be of assistance, both to the applicant and Ms Vilakazi to Ms Ngema, but we'll have to postpone the matter under those circumstances.

I assume that takes care of our roll, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, but there is a bundle that was prepared, which has the following matters. Application of Groskopff, Molefe and Dinale. This was done with the hope that the Committee will deal with these matters in chambers and decide whether they should be struck off the roll. Mr Groskopff matter, I have been informed that he has made contact with the Commission so it should be set down in future.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Mr Molefe and Mr Dinale, we've advertised for them since July, they have never made any attempt to contact us.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to see that one. I'm aware of the situation of Mr Groskopff and of the fact that he has in fact been in contact with the office a few days ago for the first time. There was some miscommunication and I think the Committee was in the possession of wrong addresses, but he was located and he's desirous of proceeding with his application, so that will have to be dealt with in due course. More than likely together with the matters that were not finalised in this session.

Yes now Molefe and Dinale, you say that the attempts have been unsuccessful in locating either of these two applicants?

MS MTANGA; Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what do you ask in respect of them?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would like to apply to the Committee to strike these matters off the roll, because we are not of any other view how we can deal with them, in the view that these applicants do not, have not been contacting us at all about their applications.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you satisfied that you have taken all steps that we reasonably could in order to locate them?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well on the strength of that, the matters of Molefe AM6450/97 and Dinale, 6476/97 are struck from the roll. The matter of Groskopff will be heard at a subsequent stage. Is there anything else that needs attention?

MS MTANGA: No, there's nothing else Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then that takes care of the roll here and the business for this session. Before we adjourn we express our usual thanks to everybody who has assisted us in having this hearing in this venue. We are aware of the efforts that go into arranging a session of this nature and we extend our thanks and appreciation for all of those people who have assisted us in this regard.

On that note we will adjourn.