CHAIRPERSON: This is a continuation of the application of Antonie Jagga and three others and we are having Mr Thulo testifying and he's presently under cross-examination.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Koopedi when we adjourned yesterday afternoon, was busy cross-examining you. We got to a stage where he was asking you what happened at Roma Police Station. Do you recall that?

MR THULO: I do, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi, you may proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: (cont)

Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Thulo, can you recall how soon after Betty Boom and her group did you go for Mbulelo Ngono?

MR THULO: Chairperson, if I recall well, it might be two days.

MR KOOPEDI: Now at the police station, the Roma Police Station, when you left with Mbulelo, was he still tied? Were his hands still tied up?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And when you crossed the border, were his hands still tied up?

MR THULO: Correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Did he make any signs of protest when you were crossing the border, or did he just keep quiet?

MR THULO: Chairperson, he was just quiet.

MR KOOPEDI: There is an allegation in the bundle of documents that at some stage Mbulelo was made to lie down on the floor of the kombi, can you comment on that?

MR THULO: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: In your presence, from the time you were inside the flat where he was arrested, was he assaulted or were any of the occupants of that flat assaulted or harassed in your presence?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: There is a further allegation in the bundle of documents, that you took Mbulelo to this place where he stays and that the two ladies, Nandipa and Lindiwe were left at this flat, can you comment on that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, it's not that way as you put it.

MR KOOPEDI: The impression I got yesterday when you testified is that you didn't know much or you didn't know anything really about Betty Boom, and you were only told to go and accompany your colleagues on the day she was to be fetched. Now what I want to know is, what was said to you, were you told that we are - come and drive this vehicle or accompany your colleagues to go and fetch Betty, or to go and abduct Betty?

MR THULO: What I said is that I was told to accompany my colleagues and drive the kombi to go and fetch Betty there.

MR KOOPEDI: Now in as far as you are concerned, Betty was fetched, she came in voluntarily into the car, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And even crossed the border into South Africa voluntarily, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you agree with me that Betty was not abducted? That is, in your own version she wasn't abducted, she came voluntarily?

MR THULO: What I know Chairperson, is that we went to fetch Betty ...(intervention)

MR LAX: No, the question to you was - you must answer this question please, was there in any way any involuntary conduct on her part? That's the gist of the question. You were there, you observed - yes or no? It's a straightforward question.

MR THULO: Chairperson, she came voluntarily.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you also said that you guarded at the farm, at the times that you were guarding her, did you get any indication that she does not want to be at the farm?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you tell me, what amnesty - what do you want amnesty for, what wrong have you done to Betty, in particular?

MR THULO: Chairperson, what I did to Betty was to guard her while she was still at the farm, because she was unable to go wherever she wanted to. And the other thing that I think I did was when we went to fetch her from Lesotho into the Republic.

MR KOOPEDI: But you agree that on these two incidents you're referring to, she was a co-operating party, she came into the car voluntarily, crossed the border with you voluntarily and stayed at the farm voluntarily, she never protested to you? Do you agree?

MR THULO: Yes, I do Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. At this farm, did you sleep at the farm on some days or did you just go there during the day?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I never slept at that farm.

MR KOOPEDI: Now all the guarding that you did, would it have been during the day?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And do you know if any of your three colleagues stayed or slept at this farm?

MR THULO: Well Chairperson, I did not have any knowledge of that.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. On Nomasonto, were you told why was Nomasonto to be fetched?

MR THULO: I was not given the reason why she was to be fetched?

MR KOOPEDI: Did you ask for it?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: In your evidence you said that Jantjie said to Nomasonto that you were sent by Betty, is that correct?

MR THULO: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And do you recall the words used, the exact words? You were sent by Betty to do what?

MR THULO: If I recall well, Chairperson, he said we were sent by Betty to go and fetch Nomasonto to take her to Ladybrand.

MR KOOPEDI: Did Nomasonto ask you why was she being taken to Ladybrand?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Did she ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He says he doesn't remember, not "no".

What did say to the question that has been asked?

MR THULO: Can you please repeat the question again, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I agree with you, I heard the applicant saying in Sotho, that he does not remember, not "that I do not know".

Did Betty did not ask: "For how long are you taking me? Why are you taking me"? I'm sorry, not Betty, but Nomasonto.

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: In your evidence you said when you found her she was hanging clothes or washing on the line, what happened to that washing? Did she take it off the line, did she leave it there?

MR THULO: I do not recall, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now other than taking the clothes, the clothes for the kids, did she take anything else with her?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: She only took the kids clothes?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson, because that's what she asked, she asked us to let her take the child's clothes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you then get to the farm with her, did you ever engage her in any conversation? That is Nomasonto.

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, I did not speak to her.

MR KOOPEDI: That is, at the farm while you were guarding her you never spoke to her?

MR THULO: I do not remember talking to her, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: For how long did you guard her?

MR THULO: It could be one day, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now do you know when was she separated from her child?

MR THULO: I do not recall, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now Tax Sejanamane, were you told why were you supposed to go and fetch him?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was not given a reason why.

MR KOOPEDI: Now where exactly did you find Tax? Was he inside the house, was he outside the house, where did you find him?

MR THULO: We found Tax in a place called Luatamai, in a taxi rank. Yes at a taxi rank, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And you said in your evidence that he wanted to run away but then changed his mind when Betty's name was mentioned. Did you tell him why Betty sent you to him and why was he supposed to be taken into South Africa?

MR THULO: When I stopped the car, Tax seemed to be scared, but after Mr Jantjie informed him that we were sent by Betty, Tax showed signs of being settled, then he entered the car.

MR KOOPEDI: But then him being settled, him agreeing that, or believing that you were sent by Betty, did he not want to know: "Why do I meet Betty in South Africa"?

MR THULO: Chairperson, he did not ask such a question.

MR KOOPEDI: And your evidence is that he also came voluntarily to South Africa, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi. Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Thulo, when you were driving with Betty from where you fetched her to Ladybrand, how long did you take, could you estimate?

MR THULO: Chairperson, approximately 45 to 50 minutes.

MR MAPOMA: Was there any conversation between yourselves or anyone of you in particular, with Betty, on the way?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I don't recall.

MR MAPOMA: No, I think you must remember. You are driving, you are travelling from Lesotho with somebody, the four of you, you can't remember whether any word was spoken to that person who has just come into the vehicle, in your company?

MR THULO: Chairperson, it is so, I don't recall.

MR MAPOMA: When you went through the border gate, at the Lesotho gate, leaving Lesotho with her, did you produce any documentation at the gate?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: I suppose because you were known by the Lesotho police. Is that the reason why you did not have to produce any document?

MR THULO: I would believe so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And this female person you were going with, the four of you being men, not being known to this border gate, were you not asked about - did the Lesotho not ask about her?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying they did not ask her to produce something, a passport to leave Lesotho?

MR THULO: I said so, Chairperson, they did not.

MR MAPOMA: Can you offer any reason why?

MR THULO: In my understanding I believed that because they knew us there, they did not suspect that we will do anything illegal or make any person cross the border without legal documents.

MR MAPOMA: And when you left with KK, tied, did you go through the gate with him, observed by the officials?

MR THULO: Chairperson, we passed the border.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, and what I want to find out is, how did you go past the border with somebody tied at the hands and the officials not asking anything about the person?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you assuming the officials saw this person tied, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Let me rephrase, Chairperson.

Did the officials see that KK was tied?

MR THULO: Chairperson, the border officials did not see that, because no-one came near the car.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean? Are you saying the car was just allowed to go past without even being searched?

CHAIRPERSON: That was his evidence, that their car was never searched.

MR MAPOMA: I suggest that these activities of you taking people from one country to another, through the border gate of Lesotho, must have been by you in connivance with the Lesotho officials. What do you say to that suggestion?

MR THULO: I don't agree, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Why?

MR THULO: I do not believe that the border officials would associate themselves with the Security Branch' duties.

MR LAX: But with respect, Sir, they knew you were policemen, they saw you with unknown people in the car, they knew you were taking people out of Lesotho and back. Previous witnesses said that they were co-operating with you, the Lesotho police. Isn't that so?

MR THULO: Chairperson, there was a co-operation, but I don't believe that that co-operation would go to extent to involve these kinds of issues.

MR LAX: Well they see four people come in a car, in a kombi, they see the kombi come through the border into Lesotho, with four people in, they see the same kombi go out now with five people in it, one of them a woman, isn't that so?

MR THULO: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you say to us that you don't think that that's co-operation.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I said there was a co-operation, but I still repeat that I don't think that they knew exactly what was happening with those people.

MR LAX: What was happening that was unlawful? What was happening that was a crime there?

MR THULO: I believed so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I'm asking you to tell me what was a crime. What crime was being committed there?

MR THULO: Chairperson, to make people cross the border without proper documents was a crime, because they would be in a particular country without permission.

MR LAX: Is that the only crime?

MR THULO: I believe so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.

Now when you arrived at the farm, your evidence is that - I mean with Betty, your evidence is that Mr Robertshaw, Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie got into a certain room with Betty and you were in a separate room. Do you recall that?

MR THULO: I recall, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Why were you in a separate room and not in the room where they got in with Betty?

MR THULO: They had reasons that I should not be in the same room with them.

MR MAPOMA: Who told you that?

MR THULO: ...(no interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is, why did you go into a separate room? Because you say you went into a separate room and you think that they had reasons. Were you told to go into a separate room?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the last question was: "By whom, who told you to go into a separate room?"

MR THULO: I was told by Mr Jagga.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.

Did he give reasons why you must not be in that room where they were?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ask why are you excluded?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, I did not.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Thulo, I find it strange. Remember, you were not a driver there, you were a member of the Security Branch, a member of that unit working together with them, you must have received clear reasons why you must not be involved and you must disclose those reasons to this Committee, as to why were you not in that room, why were you excluded?

MR THULO: Chairperson, let me clarify this. I would not ask why I should not go with them in the same room. We were working under a situation where you would not ask. There's a document you had to sign that you would work in a particular procedure and then again that you would only be allowed to know what you are supposed to know and then you should not ask questions about things which were not meant for you.

MR MAPOMA: You will recall that when you were asked a question by Mr Koopedi as to why you were not involved in some of these things, you said that there were certain sensitive things that were doing done which you had not to know. Do you recall that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I said there would be things which happened and I was not supposed to know them, then that is the reason why I did not know those things.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. You said sensitive things, I must remind you. Did you not say that?

MR THULO: I said so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. I take it that it's one of those sensitive things that were to be done at the time when you were excluded from that room? I suggest that, what do you say to that?

MR THULO: It might be the reason, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And you said your superiors would be in a better position to explain those sensitive things, you are not in a position to expose them. Do you remember that?

MR THULO: I recall so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And these superiors you're talking about, who are they?

MR THULO: I'm referring to my superior, that is Mr Fouche, my senior, that is Robertshaw, my senior, that is Jagga and another one, Mr Jantjie.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you responsible to of all these people you have mentioned, Fouche, Robertshaw and Jantjie?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was under the command of Mr Robertshaw.

CHAIRPERSON: This room, separate room which you were told by Mr Jagga to go into and they went in another with Ms Betty Boom, how far apart are these rooms?

MR THULO: Chairperson, it was a room which was, you know, they were adjacent to each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Before you went to fetch Tax, did you know anything about Tax?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Did Jantjie not tell you anything about Tax and his activities?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: You know I'll tell you what, Tax was a teacher in Bloemfontein in the early '80s, the family have got that version, and before he left South Africa he was a political activist and he was detained by the Security Police on numerous occasions and harassed by the Security Police in the Free State, before he left the country. Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, I would prefer you to dissect that long sentence, so that we give the applicant an opportunity to respond to each and every one. For instance, that Tax was a teacher in Bloemfontein, whether he knows about that, in the '80s, and secondly, before he left South Africa he was an activist. At least let's get responses on each of those.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I will endeavour to do that.

Were you aware that - aren't you aware that Tax was a teach before he left South Africa?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Aren't you aware also that he was a political activist who was detained on numerous occasions by the Security Police, in the Free State?

MR THULO: I did not know whether he was arrested or detained and his role in politics within the Republic of South Africa.

MR MAPOMA: I'll tell you what, the family have got some newspaper articles which contain some profile about the activities of Tax prior to him leaving this country. They say it was well publicised in the Free State, those activities. Are you saying you know nothing about that?

MR THULO: I know nothing about that, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now at what stage did Jantjie tell you that Tax knows him?

MR THULO: May you repeat the last part of the question, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: At what stage did Mr Jantjie tell you that Tax knows him? That is Mr Jantjie.

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, I don't understand this question. What is this evidence? I never heard such evidence, that Jantjie said to Thulo that Tax knows who - to Jantjie I suppose. We never heard that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't recall, Mr Mapoma, having heard that, unless somebody tells me otherwise.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I stand corrected, I may be wrong on this, but I seem to recall the witness saying that Jantjie told him that Tax knows him and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON Would that have been under direct examination, or cross-examination by Mr Koopedi? Where?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, perhaps let me leave it, I'm not sure now. I mean, it would take time for me to recap that. I'll leave it at that.

To your knowledge, when you went to fetch Tax did Jantjie not know Tax?

MR THULO: I don't recall, Chairperson, I don't know as to whether he knew him.

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Thulo, you should at least have an idea about that, because you say you went to that taxi rank where Tax was found and he seemed scared and wanted to run away when he saw you guys and when Jantjie approached him and told him that they have sent by Betty Boom, he became relaxed. You recall that?

MR THULO: I said so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it should be Mr Jantjie who directed you as you were the driver, isn't it so?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And I take it, correct me if I'm wrong, that he said: "Stop, here's the person we are looking for", because you did not go to a house, you found him at a taxi rank.

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And after you had stopped he approached this person whom you did not know and later knew as Tax.

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, Jantjie knew Tax.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I'm unable to say he knew him, because it is possible, not about Tax only, about any other person that he would be sent by any other person who knew him, but he would not know the person who's a messenger, and then when the messenger says to that person that I've been sent by a particular person, therefore I thought in that way I have no concrete reasons to believe that Jantjie knew Tax.

CHAIRPERSON: But the impression you gained was that Jantjie knew which person to fetch. Wouldn't that be logical?

MR THULO: It happened firstly with Nomasonto. He mentioned Betty and immediately the name Betty was mentioned, Nomasonto had no problem. After Betty's name was mentioned, Tax showed signs of relaxation, therefore there was no confusion.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's talk about this taxi rank. Were there a lot of people there?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Tax the only visible person there?

MR THULO: Chairperson, Tax was not the only one, there were other people who were around within that taxi rank.

CHAIRPERSON: According to your observation when you were directed to stop, did Jantjie go directly to Tax, who was about to flee or run away?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I stopped the car where I was instructed to, then he opened the door, he did not go out of the kombi, he just opened the door, then when Tax saw that the door was opened, he wanted to run away, that is when Jantjie started to tell him that we have been sent by Betty to come and fetch him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were you directed to stop next to Tax, by Jantjie?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I say the overall impression you gained - it's simple question, I don't think there's a trick to it, that Tax would appear to have been known by Jantjie, wouldn't that be so? You see the difference with Betty Boom and Nomasonto Mashiya is that they were fetched from houses, isn't it so?

MR THULO: I don't recall that Tax and Jantjie knew one another, but I was a driver, I was told to stop where cars used to stop there ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Don't make it complicated, Mr Thulo, the question is simple, it's that, I'm not asking you whether they knew each other, I say the impression you gained when Jantjie said stop the car and he opened the door and when this person whom you did not know wanted to run away, Jantjie said: "No, don't run away, we are sent by Betty Boom", it would appear Tax knew, I mean rather, Jantjie knew Tax. Is it not logical? Why do you want to make it difficult?

MR THULO: It doesn't click in my mind that Jantjie knew Tax.

MR LAX: Maybe I can rephrase it for you - if you'll allow me Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR LAX: Maybe what's confusing you is this word that he "knew him". At the very least he must have known what he looked like, he must have either seen a photograph of him or he must have been told what his appearance was like, isn't that so?

MR THULO: Are you saying either Tax knew Jantjie, or Jantjie knew Tax?

MR LAX: No, Jantjie must have known what the man looked like, otherwise how could he have directed you to stop next to him? Isn't that straightforward and obvious?

MR THULO: Perhaps that is one of the reasons, maybe he saw Tax's photograph.

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect Mr Thulo, you've never seen me before today, but if somebody told you to stop next to me, surely the only logical inference to draw is that that person knows what I look like? Surely even you as a Security Branch policeman who made it to Sergeant, ...(indistinct) be able to tell us that that's obvious.

MR THULO: It may be so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I don't understand why you are being so evasive, but anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, you may proceed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

When you left the farm to go and fetch Tax, were you going to go look for him in Lesotho, or were you going to fetch him somewhere in Lesotho?

MR THULO: Chairperson, we were instructed to go and fetch Tax in Lesotho.

MR MAPOMA: Weren't you going to fetch him at his place of residence in Lesotho?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: How do you know that you weren't going to do that, because your evidence so far has been that you didn't know what the plan was, you didn't know where you were going to go and pick him up, you were just told to drive. That's your evidence so far. So how do you know that you weren't going to fetch him from his home?

MR THULO: Because I was instructed to stop the car at a taxi rank, that's where we found Tax there.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

And then after you found him at the taxi rank what did you do?

MR THULO: After he entered the car we returned to Ladybrand.

MR MAPOMA: You did not go to his place of residence?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: If somebody says that Tax was found - he found Tax in his place of residence in Lesotho, that person must be lying, isn't it so?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now about KK. Your evidence was that you were instructed by Mr Robertshaw to go recruit KK in Lesotho, failing which, take him to the farm, do you recall that? Am I quoting you correctly?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we pause at this juncture and take the tea break? We'll adjourn for 15 minutes for tea.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: It would appear that it's still hot, those who feel like taking their jackets off, may do so. Mr Mapoma, you were still cross-examining Mr Thulo.

Mr Thulo, you were asked about KK when we adjourned for tea.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: (cont)

Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Thulo, now when you left with Mr Jantjie to go to KK, did you discuss a plan with Mr Jantjie on how you were intending to recruit him in Lesotho?

MR THULO: When we went to fetch KK everything started in the office where we had a discussion about KK, our senior, Robertshaw, gave us an instruction that we should go to recruit KK, if we are not successful we should abduct him.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I appreciate that. Now what I want to find out is whether you had any plan as to how you were going to recruit him in Lesotho, at all?

MR THULO: Chairperson, on our way with Mr Jantjie we did not hatch a plan of how we're going to recruit him.

MR MAPOMA: And other than that KK was a trained MK cadre, is there anything you knew about KK?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not discussed before when Mr Robertshaw gave you instructions to recruit him, that: "but be aware that he is a trained MK cadre"?

MR THULO: Chairperson, we were informed that KK is staying in Roma and then again, he's an MK member. As it applies to all MK members, he was military trained, so that we should go and recruit him to be our informer, then "if you are unable to do so, bring him".

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Jagga gave evidence before this Committee, where he said that Mr Robertshaw told him that KK was involved in a shoot-out that took place in Lesotho ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm not even going to enter into a discussion about that, but that wasn't Jagga's evidence, but Jagga did concede that he had knowledge of the shoot-out, but he didn't say Robertshaw told him. But he conceded he had knowledge about that and he said that he heard that from the Lesotho police.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is when he was asked about it, not that he did it voluntarily.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I appreciate that Chairperson, but I think I have to verify this in the transcript. My memory, if it doesn't fail me, not only did he concede but I asked him how did he know that and he said he heard that from Mr Robertshaw. But I may have to verify that, Chairperson, I'm not going to take it now at this point.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is important to you, verify it.

MR MAPOMA: Could the Chairperson just bear with me.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, to be of assistance, it's around page 303 onwards and I will find you a passage in a moment where he says he heard it from the Lesotho police. Yes Chairperson, it's in fact at page 304:

that's referring to this whole issue of where Mphilo was wounded and KK ran away and Radebe was killed. And he says:

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: The fourth line from the bottom.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, it may well be, but this is the re-examination which was being referred to here.

MR VISSER: This is evidence-in-chief, Chairperson, unless our records are not the same.

MR MAPOMA: I'll leave it at that Chairperson, at this point, I don't want to delay the proceedings.

MR VISSER: But I'm not objecting to my learned friend's questioning, it may be relevant, I'm not objecting to his questioning, I'm just putting the facts straight.

CHAIRPERSON: That's how I understood you, Mr Visser. And that's what I was putting to him as well, Mr Mapoma, that I am not, but I just want it to be put as it appears in the record, because we should appreciate that Mr Thulo was not present when he testified, that is Mr Jagga.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I appreciate that.

Mr Thulo, during your discussions about KK, did it not occur to you - did you not get information that KK was involved in an incident in Lesotho, where three MK cadres, including KK, were shot at?

MR THULO: I don't recall that fact, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Now when you went to the farm with KK, on your arrival in the farm, where were other persons who were abducted?

MR THULO: When we arrived at the farm I recall that KK was there alone, others were not there.

INTERPRETER: For the benefit of Mr Mapoma, let me repeat the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do so, I see he was changing headphones.

INTERPRETER: When we arrived at the farm we found only KK and others were not there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the others, you're referring to Ms Betty Boom, Ms Nomasonto Mashiya and Tax Sejanamane? Are you referring to those people when you say "the others were not there"?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Then Mr Thulo, I propose to you that it cannot be then correct that you went to fetch KK two days after Betty Boom was fetched.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, that was never his evidence, that was never anybody's evidence. With great respect, my learned friend seems not to have come to grasp with the evidence. The evidence was that Betty Boom was fetched, a day later Nomasonto was fetched, a day later Tax was fetch, and they were all taken back and then KK was fetched and that was a day or two or even a little later than that. That was the evidence.

MR LAX: This witness's evidence was that KK was taken a day or two after the others were returned.

MR VISSER: Yes, but the question that is now being put is that: "your evidence can't be correct that KK was fetched a day or two after Betty Boom was fetched". That's the question.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I appreciate that ...

CHAIRPERSON: That is the question, but it can't be right.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I appreciate that Chairperson, I retract that question. That is all Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Visser?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: No re-examination, Chairperson.

Perhaps, just in order to be of some assistance I could ask this.

Mr Thulo, do you remember what this house on this farm looked like, can you give us a description of this house? How many bedrooms were there, was there a lounge, was there furniture in this house, was there a stoep, where was the toilet, was it inside the house, was it outside the house? Can you give us some sort of description, so that we just know what this house on the farm looked like.

MR THULO: When you enter this house from the front door you enter into a lounge and then from there you move to a diningroom, then adjacent to that diningroom, the first bedroom - let me go back. Next to the lounge is the first bedroom and then another one next to the diningroom and as you pass to the kitchen there's a third bedroom and the third bedroom was just next to the kitchen, and next to the kitchen was also a toilet. It was like that Chairperson, as I recall it.

MR VISSER: The toilet was inside the house?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I thought it might be of assistance if not only of mere interest, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Lax, clarifications you seek?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Thulo, just for your benefit and comment I want to tell you what Mr Jantjie said with regard to the collection of Betty Boom. He said they - and let me just put this in context for you first. After there were suspicions about Betty Boom being an informer within the ANC, in other words the ANC had suspicions and your unit got wind of that, it was decided that she would be brought to the farm and that it would be made to look like an abduction. That was the plan that was hatched and that's what he testified to, and he testified in particular that you were present when that plan was discussed. What do you say about that?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you respond, my recollection is that when this plan was discussed, the four of you, that is all members of your unit were present. Would that be correct, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Correct.

MR THULO: I do not agree with that, Chairperson, I was not present.

MR LAX: Now you see, we heard from others that that was the plan as well, that if there was a problem that an effort would be made to make it look like an abduction, and that would have required planning and the person who would definitely have to know about that would be the driver.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I will repeat again, I was not present when this plan was hatched, I only learnt about that afterwards when we were making our applications for amnesty.

MR LAX: Now with regard to Tax, the version that you've given us is quite different from the version we've already had from Mr Jantjie, because according to him the plan was this, Tax had been phoned, he'd been give a description of your vehicle and it had been arranged where you were going to meet him and he was supposed to come to your vehicle, having that description. That was the plan. And it appears, both from the evidence and from the papers, and if you want I'll give you the specific references if you like, but can take my word for it, I wouldn't mislead you. You were unaware of that?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, I did not know. I have already explained that these people had their own discussions together with Betty and Tax and I wasn't present at that time. I wasn't present when they were holding those discussions. If this is what Mr Jantjie said I know, I dispute what he said, I would say he's lying.

MR LAX: Well you see the problem with that is that these are matters that appear in his affidavit which you've incorporated into your application, and in particular, if you look at paragraph 32 and paragraph 33 on page 7G, and paragraph 31 by the way. You've read it have you?

MR THULO: Yes, I've read that Chairperson.

MR LAX: And what is your comment please?

MR THULO: I dispute this, Chairperson, Jantjie never told me that Betty telephoned Tax.

MR LAX: Now the way Jantjie testified about Tax was that he wasn't suspicious until they arrived at the farm, he had no suspicions whatsoever until they arrived at the farm. What do you say? That's quite different to what you've told us.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I said that when I stopped the car next to Tax he looked like somebody who was scared, but after he was called by Jantjie and telling him that we were sent by Betty, he relaxed and he came to our car. That is what I said, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you see, what Jantjie and the others say is that this had been prearranged, so he had no reason to worry, he knew that people were coming to get him. Do you see the difference?

MR THULO: That is why Chairperson, I say that I don't know what the plans were like, I was just told to go there, I was not involved in the discussions of the plans, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now with regard to KK, you've told us that you were at a meeting where discussions were held and there were other people who were telling you about KK, and it was clear from your evidence that these were other people besides your unit, who were these other people telling you about KK?

MR THULO: May you please repeat your question, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you testified yesterday in your evidence-in-chief that there were discussions, there was a meeting that took place before you got your instructions from Robertshaw, and that at that meeting that's when you first heard about KK, but there were other people from outside of your unit who were giving you information and you were discussing this information, all of you. I want to know who those other people were.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I said that I was present during those discussions, Mr Jagga, Mr Jantjie and Mr Robertshaw were present, but I said I did not know where the information came from, I never said that there were people who gave us information during that discussion.

MR LAX: Well you said you were discussing this with other people from outside, or words to that effect. I don't have the exact note that I took yesterday, if you like I'll find it for you and quote to you.

MR THULO: I do not remember me saying that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me a moment, Chair, maybe Mr Sibanyoni could ask another question and I'll find that and come back to my questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Thulo, you said you were excluded when sensitive things were discussed, I forgot to ask you yesterday for the reason why you say your superiors can talk about that, why are you not telling us about that? What prevents you from telling us about that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I said that maybe there were other sensitive matters that they were discussing, matters that I was not supposed to know, that is what I thought, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Matters such as? Or matters relating to what?

MR THULO: I would not know Chairperson, what they were discussing, I would neither know those matters that they were discussing.

MR SIBANYONI: But you were a member of that unit, if it was in connection with the unit, obviously you wouldn't be excluded. What is your comment?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson, but if they realise that it would be important that I should not be present, then there was nothing that I could do.

MR SIBANYONI: Did they take you in trust, did they trust you, your colleagues and superiors?

MR THULO: I think so, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Is Mr Robertshaw in a position to tell us about those things, sensitive things?

MR THULO: I don't know, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: On page 29B of the bundle, the third paragraph you say, and the last sentence of the third paragraph - or paragraph 3, let me say paragraph 3:

The four informers you are referring to, who are they?

MR THULO: May I please be given an opportunity to read this, Chairperson? Chairperson, these four people are Betty Boom, Tax Sejanamane, Nomasonto and KK.

MR SIBANYONI: You say it will appear later that no-one of them are still alive, from where would we establish that no-one of them is still alive? Or how will it appear?

MR THULO: Chairperson, what is written here is not what comes from me, it appears that this is Mr Jantjie's words. I have explained to this Committee that my participation or my role was only confined at the farm and driving the car and when they were taken back I would not know what happened to them.

MR SIBANYONI: But this is your statement in support of your application.

MR THULO: This is Mr Jantjie's statement and I have asked that my statement should be incorporated into his statement.

MR LAX: Just to help you Sir, this is not Jantjie's statement, if you turn over the page, go one page back, just go one page back, this is your supplementary statement.

MR VISSER: There's some confusion here, Chairperson, one must only read paragraph 25 at page 29E, and that is where it later appears that it is clear that the witness is not putting this together.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you be of assistance, Mr Wagener, to the witness? I'll allow you. Whilst you are doing so Mr Wagener, let him switch off his mike, I don't want to hear what you two are saying.

MR THULO: May you please repeat the question, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, may you for his assistance, repeat the question.

MR SIBANYONI: My question is, you are saying it will later appear that no-one of these informers are still alive, my question is where would we find that, where will that appear that no-one of these informers are still alive?

MR THULO: I would answer the question this way Chairperson, I think this would maybe appear to their families that they have disappeared and the only conclusion that they would reach will be that those people are dead.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you were able to bring these people into South Africa without the Lesotho police checking, now my question is, in other words the Lesotho police will not know how many ANC refugees are still in Lesotho, how many have been taken out of Lesotho by the police? Do you agree that that logically follows?

MR THULO: I do not understand that, Chairperson, I don't know whether they were keeping the records of the people who were coming into Lesotho and those who were leaving Lesotho, but I believe that after we have taken out these people, I don't know whether the Lesotho police went back to their records to check who was still in Lesotho and who has left Lesotho at that time.

MR SIBANYONI: Insofar as you are concerned or insofar as you know these people were fetched by you, that is your unit, from Lesotho into South Africa and taken to the farm in Ladybrand, is that so?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: You have no knowledge out of your own observation, you have never seen them being taken back into Lesotho, is that so?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: That is all for now, Mr Chairperson, I'd like to check my notes at the beginning of his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Have you found what you wanted, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Yes, Chairperson.

Right at the very beginning, while you were busy with your evidence-in-chief, when you first led on KK, on Mr Ngono you were asked what was your role with regard to Mr Ngono, and you said that you were called to a meeting with seniors - that's what my note looks like, it may be wrong, and that at that meeting there was a discussion about him and that's where you first heard about him. Now I don't have it here and obviously the transcript will say precisely what you said, inasmuch as it was translated, but my recollection, and it's not in my note, but I'm putting it no higher than that, but my recollection was that the meeting was your unit and other people. But if I'm wrong I'll leave it at that. You say there were no other people present in that meeting?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, in case it might assist, my attorney's note is that he added that the information that was discussed at that meeting came from other people. So in that sense, Mr Lax might be correct.

MR LAX: No I just had a clear recollection that this was a meeting of Robertshaw, Thulo, Jantjie, Jagga and other people, but the record will speak for itself anyway, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

MR VISSER: Well if that is what the record is going to say, it certainly is contrary to my instructions.

MR LAX: The reason I made a note to ask a question about it was, it struck me as unusual, but I could have heard wrong, it's also a real possibility, so ...

But you're clear in your own mind Mr Thulo, that that is wrong, as far as you are concerned?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And this was a meeting to discuss this new information about this person and then to decide what you're going to do about it and then you got instructions that flowed from those discussions? Is that a fair way of describing what happened?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: What interests me is how come you were excluded from all the other people on any background information about that, and the impression you've given us is that you were purposefully excluded, whereas here you were included. Can you - it just seems rather odd that you should be excluded in the other three but in this case you're included.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I do not have an explanation for that but that is what happened.

MR LAX: Now just by way of a general statement, you've told us that you were a field worker and that you were at this point in time working in Lesotho, collecting intelligence, servicing certain sources, of which you had about 13. You've also told us that you were excluded from certainly what to me seems like a lot of information. Am I right so far?

MR THULO: Chairperson, this happened at that time, only during that incident.

MR LAX: Yes. So are you saying that with regard to everything else besides these four incidents you were informed of everything else and you were never, information was never kept away from you?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I don't know whether there were other incidents that took place apart from this one that we are talking about here.

MR LAX: You see Mr Thulo, that's precisely the problem I have with your evidence, the way you say you worked and your unit worked with you, in relation to these incident, is totally contrary to the way one would expect any police information unit to work, in general, and you say further that it's only in relation to these incidents that it was different. Why's that?

MR THULO: I don't know Chairperson, why it happened that way, but this is how it happened.

MR LAX: So with regard to every other bit of information collected and with regard to any other recruitments, you were kept fully informed?

MR THULO: I have said Chairperson, if there were other incidents that I did not know, maybe those are the incidents they did not tell me about. I only know about these incidents that we are talking about here.

MR LAX: Are these the only incidents where you think you've done something unlawful and that's why you're applying for amnesty for them?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But clearly, you recruited other informers in Lesotho?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And clearly, your colleagues also recruited other informers in Lesotho?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And all the information that was gleaned from those sources, except in these four incidents, was shared and discussed at your daily meetings, isn't that so?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson, that is so.

MR LAX: And reports were written and sent on to other offices as the case required, isn't that so?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Then it strikes me as very strange then that you were not informed about these matters. And in fact, it's only three of these matters that you were not informed about, the fourth one you were informed about. You've no explanation for why that is so? No suspicion, no idea why that should be so?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, at that stage I did not have any suspicion, because I've explained that the rule was that you only ask what is meant for you, but you do not ask what was not meant for you. If the issue is not meant for you, you don't have to ask any questions.

MR LAX: Well you see you were a team, you were working together as a team, isn't that so?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And that's why it's strange that one member of the team is just left out and not kept informed of anything. What if you'd gone into Lesotho on one of your intelligence gathering missions and you messed up their plans, and you interfered in the work they were doing? Surely it was crucial that you should be kept informed, so you didn't do that.

MR THULO: If that would happen, Chairperson, I think there would be steps that would be taken against me.

MR LAX: Well how could any steps be taken against you Sir, if you weren't kept informed? You wouldn't be guilty of anything, you committed no wrong, how were you to know if they didn't tell you?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I say I think that they would take steps. I'm not saying that will happen, I am saying I think they will take steps against me.

MR LAX: Well that's just totally illogical that you should think such a thing when you committed no wrong whatsoever. Now looking back from today at what happened, can you think of any reason why they did not inform you of those things, in those three incidents? They didn't give you any background or let you know what was going on. I'm not asking what you might have thought then, I'm just saying looking back now as an experienced person.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I don't have an answer because I'm still thinking about that. I don't know why this happened in my absence. Even today I don't have an answer why that happened.

MR LAX: Now with regard to Mr Ngono you say you were at this meeting, what information was discussed at the meeting?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was told in this meeting that there is an information that KK Ngono was present in Lesotho at a place called Roma and he was a member of the MK and he was trained MK soldier and our office was interested in his services as an informer. So we were instructed that we should go there and try to recruit him, so that our office could use him against his own organisation. And we were told that if we were unable to do that we should abduct him and come back with him to Ladybrand.

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the first part of your answer, I didn't hear that properly. Something interfered with my headphones here, it just went crackly, unfortunately for me. Just repeat your answer please.

MR THULO: I said Chairperson, during this meeting we were told that there is an information about KK Ngono, that he was present at Roma in Lesotho and our office was interested in him so that we could use him as our informer, because he was a member of the MK and our office would use him against his own organisation. So we were given the instructions to go there and recruit KK, so that we could come and use him as our informer, but if we were unable to recruit him, we should abduct him and come back with him to Ladybrand.

CHAIRPERSON: Just because you had instructions as you told us, that you should recruit him and instead you did not do so, you fetched him, did you have any discretion when you were given orders? I'm sorry about that, Mr Lax.

MR THULO: Chairperson, we were just told that we should recruit him, but on our way myself and Mr Jantjie, we discussed about this, we discussed about his training as a soldier, so we did not want to take a chance and approach him easily, so we used our discretion, so that we do not find ourselves in danger. That is why we used the services of, or the assistance of the Lesotho police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, my question is that, could you change orders to suit what you wanted, when you were told? Because here Mr Robertshaw said: "Recruit this man, if it fails, fetch him." So there's no failure of the recruitment, but instead you altered those orders and fetched him instead. Hence I say, did you have a discretion to change orders?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson, we had a discretion.

CHAIRPERSON: And this would alter what you said earlier, that you had to do as you are told. Remember when you testified in direct examination?

MR THULO: I remember, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So between the two, which should I accept?

MR THULO: Because Chairperson, we realised the danger that we was facing, that is why we changed the instruction and used our discretion. We did not want to encounter any danger, that is why we went for assistance from the Lesotho police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thulo, I would request you that if you don't follow a question, please say so, because now we are going onto something which I did not ask you. It would make it easier for you if you haven't hear the question, to ask that it be repeated. My question was, between the two, that you subsequently used your discretion and earlier you said you had to do as you were told, which one of the two should I accept, because here you said you use your discretion?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I would request that you accept that we used our own discretion.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I'm sorry about that Mr Lax, you may proceed.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

You see with regard to KK, Mr Jagga told us there was a file on him in your office. Did you know that?

MR THULO: No, I did not know anything about KK's file, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But surely the file would have been out when you were having your discussion about him, that was the source of all the information about the man, and there you are having a meeting talking about him?

MR THULO: There was no file before us in that meeting, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And where were you supposed to go to find this man?

MR THULO: We were told that he was at Roma, we should go there at his place and Mr Jantjie had the direction about that house, he also had the direction about KK's girlfriend's house where she was staying.

MR LAX: So he had two addresses?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see all the other witnesses have said he only had one address, they haven't said you had two addresses.

MR THULO: I remember well, Chairperson, we went to the first house and he was not there and we went to his girlfriend's place, that is where we found him.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is this first house from Roma?

MR THULO: It is not far Chairperson, it could be two streets from where we are here.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would be in the district of Roma University?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me a short moment, Chairperson, there's just something that's arisen now.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst he's doing that, I asked questions around Mbulelo to the other two applicants, that is your colleagues, that according to the documentation we have here is that Ngono left Lesotho around September and came back around March the following year, that would be Buthelezi, we've got a statement here, and I'm not saying that is correct, I just want your comment. If Buthelezi is right, then the abduction or the fetching of Ngono in Lesotho in December, couldn't have happened, because he wouldn't have been there. Do you have any comment? Because Buthelezi says he was a comrade and he knew movements of other people, for instance Mbulelo Ngono.

MR THULO: Chairperson, all these things happened in December 1987, if it is necessary I would say, I have already mentioned when this thing happened I was also involved in other matters in church and I still have those dates, so I would not agree with Mr Buthelezi about what he's saying.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR LAX: How come you remember everything attached to the time of your, of this baptism and around the church, but anything besides that you're not clear about? How is it so that everything that's related to this, you suddenly remember it very neatly in one big package, but all the detail is vague to you? What's made this all stick in your memory so clearly but yet other things on the outside you're not clear about?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I have said that the fetching of these people happened at the time when I was going to make a ceremony in my family. It was a very important ceremony in my family. It was important because this was my first child and it was my first child that I was going to baptise at the church, so this coincided with the fetching of these people. This can be the reason why I do not forget about this incident. These are my reasons, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you see one would expect you to have less of a clear memory about it, because your mind was focused on other things at that time. You were so busy worrying about all the issues around this baptism of your son, why would you have paid, all the more reason why you should have forgotten about these facts, rather than remember them. Added to which you weren't there a lot of the time, as you said you took time off to go here, you took time to off to go there.

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson, but you must remember that what I have said before this Committee is what I remember and that is what happened at that time. It is unfortunate that there are those things that I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you joined this unit seven months before these incidents of December 1987, and earlier you said to us you handled, it was an estimation you gave, 13 informers, where were your informers operating?

MR THULO: Chairperson, they were operating in Lesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you having contact with your informers? I know some were co-handled and you mentioned about four which were co-handled, but did you receive any information from your informers around the activities of the liberation movements in and around Lesotho?

MR THULO: Yes Chairperson, I had contacts with them, but not all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And in the seven months you joined this unit, you never received information about Ms Betty Boom, Ms Nomasonto Mashiya, Mr Tax Sejanamane, you never received anything of that nature? You only heard about them when you were told to accompany the others with Betty Boom, that you first became aware of her presence in Lesotho?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because some of the people, the documentation says that they arrived in Lesotho round about August/September of that year, so when you fetched them they had been at least for two months in Lesotho, that is October and November they were already in Lesotho. You heard nothing about that?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And Betty Boom was a highly placed person who had to conduct ANC or MK activities around the Free State, she was the chief Commander of that unit. You didn't hear that?

MR THULO: I heard that Chairperson, that Betty had a very high position in her organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear that?

MR THULO: After we have fetched her to the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: You subsequently discussed Betty Boom with your colleagues?

MR THULO: It was not a discussion, Chairperson, I was just being told.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

MR THULO: That's Mr Jantjie.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that before you fetched Nomasonto or after?

MR THULO: We were on our way to fetch Nomasonto, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Jagga not present when you fetched Nomasonto?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, he was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: But your informers never came to you with any knowledge, because if I listen to your evidence, you had nothing, you sprung into activity only in December when the four were fetched, otherwise it was a lull with you for the seven months. Would I be correct in summarising what I heard in the manner I did?

MR THULO: There's no-one amongst my informers, Chairperson, who brought information about these people, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you still flatly deny what I think Kadi said about you, that you tortured him during 1986, and he mentions some members of this unit ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon Chairperson, may you please restart the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I say, do you still flatly deny the assertions made by Kadi that he was tortured during 1986, and amongst others he mentions people in your unit, this unit of four and your chief, that is Fouche? Do you deny his assertions? I'm not saying they are true, but are you still denying that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I will explain and say that I know nothing about Kadi. I asked Jantjie, after I've heard about this yesterday I asked him about Kadi, he told me that Kadi is Wax. As far as I know Chairperson, I have never worked with this person known as Wax.

CHAIRPERSON: And he further said he was successfully recruit, because he once went with you to Lesotho, you were there, and he mentions the names:

MR THULO: I dispute this, Chairperson, I know nothing about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know about Mr Mageta in Lesotho?

MR THULO: Yes I knew about Mr Mageta in Lesotho, Chairperson. I don't know whether he was the ANC Secretary at that time, but what I know is that he was one of the leaders within the ANC in Lesotho at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you start knowing about him?

MR THULO: I would explain this, Chairperson. There was a person we used to work with at Ladybrand Security Branch, he was an old man, he was Mr Mogomo, he used to discuss about Mr Mageta. He used to tell us that they used to attend school together, but Mr Mogomo is the person who told me about Mr Mageta and he told me that he was involved in politics in Lesotho and that he was one of the leaders of the ANC in Lesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: We've got two periods here, you first worked for the Security Branch and you were around Zastron and Wepener and subsequently you joined this unit of four in 1987, when did Mogomo tell you about this? Between those two periods.

MR THULO: Chairperson, it was when I was working with him. Like I have explained that I was working in Wepener, I used to go with him at Wepener to gather information. He knew a lot about politics ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thulo, you don't have to tell me a lot, I've just asked you between two periods when you were just an ordinary Security Branch member there, doing filing and going to Zastron and Wepener and subsequently you joined this unit of four in '87, when did you know about Mageta? It's either "when I was with the Security Branch or when I joined the four", you don't have to tell a story.

MR THULO: That is before I worked with this unit, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are you finished Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Now yesterday when you were talking about Nomasonto, you were being questioned about her and you were asked:

and you gave an answer which struck me as quite unusual and you said:

These people were interrogated, why were they interrogated?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I do not have evidence that they were interrogated, because they were in another room. I used to be with this person when I was instructed to guard her, so I don't know what happened in other places.

MR LAX: Well those are your words, I didn't say them. That was your answer and you used that word. So clearly they must have been, otherwise you wouldn't have used the word. It's no good denying that you know anything about it, that was your answer.

MR THULO: I do not remember, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Yes. So you're not willing to tell us about the interrogations?

MR THULO: There is no interrogation I can tell you about, Chairperson, because I don't know whether these people were interrogated or not.

MR LAX: Now, later on you were talking about Tax and you said that the four of you, that's Robertshaw, Jantjie, Jagga and yourself went to go and fetch Tax. Now the question I have for you is, who was guarding Nomasonto and Betty Boom while you were doing this? Because you've told us there was no-one else there besides the four of you.

MR THULO: At that time when Betty was still there I used to guard her, but while she was with Nomasonto I don't know whether other members came over to guard these people, I cannot really say.

CHAIRPERSON: Please listen to the question, Mr Thulo, please, I implore you now, please listen to the question. Would you restate your question, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: You made it quite clear in your evidence it was just the four of you there at the farm with these people, because I asked you this question once before, whether outsiders had come and you said:

it was about you going home. So the question remains, when the four of you went to Lesotho to fetch Tax Sejanamane, who guarded Nomasonto and Betty Boom?

MR THULO: I don't remember, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you leave from to fetch Tax Sejanamane? Now we know you are attached to Ladybrand and you have these other people on the farm which you only knew when you took Ms Betty Boom to the farm and your duties were to, when the others were not around, that is members of your unit, you would be left to guard her. You recall all that. I want to know now, when you fetched Tax Sejanamane, from which place did you leave from? I'm mindful that this farm is about four to five kilometres away from Ladybrand, as ...(inaudible) testified.

MR THULO: I will explain it this way, Chairperson. I used to guard these people during the day and then at night I'll go home and when I go to work in the morning I will go to the office first, not to the farm, but if I was needed at the farm I would be told to go to the farm. So when we went to fetch Tax, I was taken from the office, I was taken by Mr Robertshaw, Mr Jantjie and Mr Jagga. They told me in the morning at the office that I should not go, because we are going to leave for Lesotho to fetch somebody there. I don't know who was left at the farm, that is why I am unable to give you the names.

CHAIRPERSON: When you returned with Tax and took him to the farm, who did you find there, other than the two ladies, that is Ms Betty Boom and Ms Nomasonto Mashiya? Who did you find other than those two?

MR THULO: I do not remember seeing other people there, Chairperson, because when we arrived there they all went into that room, because I was never allowed to enter that room. When we arrive there they will take the person that we went to fetch into that room and then I will be directed to another one.

CHAIRPERSON: What I meant is that of your colleagues, the unit of four, was there not anybody there amongst those people?

MR THULO: The person who was left at the farm at that time, Chairperson - may you please explain the question again, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I say you say you were fetched from the office to fetch Tax Sejanamane, would I be right, hearing you correctly?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you fetched Tax Sejanamane you took him to the farm where the others were, that is Nomasonto and Betty.

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I say, upon your arrival, other than these two, who else did you find on the farm?

MR THULO: On our arrival there, Chairperson, it was myself, Mr Jantjie, Mr Jagga, Mr Robertshaw and Tax and the three of them together with Tax, went into the room, so I don't know who else was in that room.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that room locked where the two ladies were?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, it wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were as usual directed to your separate room?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I'm sorry about that, you may proceed.

MR LAX: No that's fine.

And just to be clear on this, you don't know what the legends that Jantjie and Jagga used in Lesotho were?

MR THULO: I do not understand your question, Chairperson.

MR LAX: When someone like you goes as a policeman into another country you pretend to be somebody besides yourself, you pretend to have an occupation or some description, you pretend - or no occupation as the case may be, but you certainly create what in Afrikaans is called "'n legende", what in English is called "a cover story" or "a legend". I'm really surprised that you've never heard these terms before or you don't seem to understand them. As someone who was a field worker in Lesotho it puzzles me that you don't understand them.

CHAIRPERSON Let's put it this way, Mr Thulo, ...(intervention)

MR THULO: Yes, I do understand now, Chairperson. If I remember well, Mike and Tony Jagga were known as vehicle theft police, not as security policemen, they were just looking for people who were stealing cars.

MR LAX: And you were known as an insurance salesman?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you see this really troubles me, because as their colleague you should have known what their cover was, and their cover was that they were criminals, they hung out in bars pretending to be criminals on the run from South Africa, and that's how they made contact with other people who were likely sources of information. In the case of Betty Boom, they pretended to be MK members, but in general that was their cover, they were pretending to be criminals on the run. And you don't even know that, how could you have worked with them if you don't know that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I've explained that what I know is that they were known as the vehicle theft police, not as security police.

MR LAX: Well how would they have been able to recruit any informers if they were known as vehicle theft police? Please explain that to me.

MR THULO: I cannot offer an explanation Chairperson, because I wasn't present all the time when they were recruiting people, so I don't know what they were using, what cover they were using.

MR LAX: But if you weren't present all the time it means you were present some of the time and during the time that you were present that's the cover they used, according to you.

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now when you were talking about Nomasonto this morning, you said something which struck me, you said she asked you for permission to take the child's clothing with her, why did she need your permission to take the child's clothing with?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I said she asked to take the kid's clothes, she did not ask me personally, but she asked Mike.

MR LAX: That doesn't change the question at all. Please answer the question. Why was it necessary for her to ask your permission to do such a thing, it's the most normal logical thing you'd expect a mother with a child to do, why did she need your permission to do that?

MR THULO: I think Chairperson, because at that time she was outside at the washing line, maybe it's the reason why she asked me for an opportunity for her to take the kid's clothing along.

MR LAX: Well you see I would expect someone who was being hurried and being forced to into a vehicle, to ask that question, to say "Please hang on a second, the child needs clothes, I can't just go off with the child without clothes and without nappies or without paraphernalia for a child". So maybe that's what really happened and that's why she had to ask you such a question.

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, I think because we told her that we were sent by Betty she would not just leave us outside and enter the house, because we will also be surprised, but she asked us to get into the house to take the kid's clothes.

MR LAX: Maybe she had to ask you this because you were afraid that she might run for it and you didn't want that to happen.

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, I didn't think about that.

MR LAX: Yes. Now just in the same vein, and it's my last issue with you, why is it necessary to guard some people who are co-operating with you, who are working with you, who have already been, one of whom has already been recruited by you, not you personally but you in the plural, why was it necessary to guard them?

MR THULO: At that time Chairperson, I did not have any knowledge why it was necessary for me to guard those people, I just accepted the instructions. I did not ask whether those people would run away or they were posing any danger, I was just given instructions. I have also explained that after all these things have happened I asked myself if these people were friends or were our informers, why were they guarded all the time? That is the question I asked myself.

MR LAX: Well that's the question I'm asking you. You see if these people were you prisoners you would expect you to be behaving in that way towards them, to be guarding them, isn't that so?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: No further questions, Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Chairperson, can I just ask two questions, every short.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Thulo, I would like you to respond to what I'm going to ask you, it in relation to the statements which are included in this bundle. I think that will be fair that I ask you for your response. When one reads the statement by Sietsi Mokhele, who was the husband to Nomasonto and the father of Nkosana, the impression one gets is that he says he assumes that after these people were kidnapped by the police, the police killed them or eliminated them, what do you respond to that? I'm saying the tone of his statement is to that effect. What is your response to that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I would explain it this way. After all these things have happened I was told that all those people that we went to fetch were taken back to Lesotho, but after some time, I would say after two to three weeks I was also told that those people that we went to recruit have disappeared and I was told that they may have gone to Zambia. I got this from Mr Jagga. But when I listened to the news after the old government, the ANC was looking for the people who had disappeared, the people who ran to Zambia, but it became clear that those people were not amongst the people who ran to Zambia, so as a person you would ask yourself a question: 'what happened to these people, because they could not be traced." If these people are still alive, even today, I think that they know that we have applied for amnesty and I think that they should be present here.

So Chairperson, as a human being I think those people are dead, but how they died I don't know, because the last time I saw them was when I was told that they've been taken back to Lesotho. I thank you, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it not so that the last time you saw them is when they were on a farm at Ladybrand?

MR THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: And the tone of Kadi's statement, to me at least, he speaks about the modus operandi of your unit when going into Lesotho, he speaks about various incidents where members of the ANC were attacked, some of them were killed. Now it gives a pattern of violent acting against members of the ANC, which will be contrary to what we are told how you handled these four activists. What is your response to that?

MR THULO: I would ask for forgiveness Chairperson, if I'm unable to explain this. I would not agree to what I did not do. I would not agree that I worked with Kadi, because I don't know him. So what he is saying here, if it happened indeed - I will mention some of the incidents that took place in Lesotho in 1985 and some other years, that is when the Lesotho citizens and other members of the ANC were attacked. They were attacked by the South African Military. I believe that the South African Military, if they had interest in these people they also had their own informers that they used in Lesotho, so that they could get information. That is the information that led to the attack in Maseru. If there is something that Mr Kadi, that he did with Mr Jantjie and Robertshaw and Jagga, I don't know about that and I would not accept that I know anything about that.

MR SIBANYONI: We were told Eugene de Kock used to visit Ladybrand, did you encounter him there?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I know the name Eugene de Kock and I see him on television, he used to come there, it's true he used to come Chairperson, but I have never met him personally.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further ques-tions.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything, Mr Visser, that arose from what the Panel asked?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Koopedi, anything arising from what the Panel asked?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing arose from your questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi. Mr Mapoma, anything arising from what the Panel asked?

MR MAPOMA: Nothing, Chairperson, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Thank you very much Mr Thulo, this brings you to the end of your testimony, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Rather than having the next applicant, could we adjourn, would it be appropriate to adjourn for lunch? Thank you, we adjourn for lunch, we'll reconvene at two.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I hope you don't mind me throwing the ball into your court.

MR VISSER: Not at all, Chairperson, in fact I'd like to get my part of it done. I call Mr Robertshaw. He prefers to give his evidence in English, Chairperson, and his application appears in the bundle from page 16 onwards and a statement drafted on his behalf, from page 22A onwards. He has no objection to taking the prescribed oath.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Mr Visser.

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Robertshaw, I just want to make this clear, you are not either Robert or Shaw, you're Robertshaw, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You filed an application and you're an applicant in the amnesty applications which are presently serving before this Amnesty Committee, and your amnesty application is to be found in the bundle at page 16 to 22, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Subject to your evidence here today, do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the contents of that amnesty application?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You also - on your behalf was drawn a statement of the evidence that you will give before this Committee, in order to be of assistance to the Committee, and that is pages 22A to C of the same bundle, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: At page 22A, you refer to the General Background document, which we know very well at this stage, and you told me, is that correct, that except for the references to Botswana and Swaziland, you are able to confirm from your own knowledge and experience, the broad background set out in that document, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you ask that that be incorporated when your application for amnesty is considered by this Committee.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Robertshaw, you at page 16, under paragraph 17A and B, the answers given there are "not applicable, not applicable" - Chairperson, it just occurred to me that although I'm sure Mr Lax and Mr Sibanyoni has heard this before, but I don't think anybody's ever given you personally an explanation as to how it came about that in all the applications of almost all of the applicants of Mr Wagener, these answers were given as "not applicable, not applicable". And there's a simple answer to that, Chairperson, an explanation, and that is, Mr Wagener read the question incorrectly and we gave the other Committees, before we appeared, this explanation and it has been accepted. But clearly, Chairperson, instead of interpreting that question restrictively, it should have been interpreted widely as including members, supporters and everything, Chairperson. So we would ask you to allow paragraph 7A to read:

and 7B, to read:

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, your sequence is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

Is that correct, Mr Robertshaw?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Robertshaw, perhaps if we can forget about the papers for the moment, can you give the Committee - first of all, you joined the Security Branch at Ladybrand in 1986, according to your amnesty application, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what was your status at Ladybrand, in the Security Police?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I was second-in-charge of the branch in Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: And who was your commanding officer, the Branch Commander?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Capt Fouche.

MR VISSER: Is that Frik Fouche?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Frik Fouche, yes.

MR VISSER: And at some stage you became involved with the gathering of information, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Was that from the beginning, or did that happen a little later on?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That was from the beginning, Mr Chairper-son.

MR VISSER: So when you were transferred to Ladybrand, you immediately became involved in the gathering of information?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now, do you recall from your own knowledge and recollection, when the incidents, the events took place which led to the present application for amnesty?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That happened towards the end of 1987.

MR VISSER: 1987. When you say "towards the end", can you be more specific?

MR ROBERTSHAW: The last few months before the end of the year.

MR VISSER: Yes. Now just give the Committee a sense of how your - if I may refer to it as a unit, it wasn't really a unit or was it?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It was a section, I'd refer to it as a section.

MR VISSER: How did you work with this section, how did you go about things? Can you just tell the Committee, give us a sense of your day to day basis of how you operated.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well the section referred to was basically responsible for the gathering of information in Lesotho, concerning mainly the PAC and the ANC, so these people had to concentrate on that work. They would - we'd come together on an ad hoc basis, if they had information about something that had transpired in Lesotho, something that they had brought to my attention, they'd come into my office, we'd discuss it, I'd tell them what to do with the information, put it into report form, get more information, whatever the case was. It wasn't - there weren't so-called formal meetings about this whole thing, it was conducted on a day to day basis.

MR VISSER: On an ad hoc basis?

MR ROBERTSHAW: On an ad hoc basis.

MR VISSER: And when you say they would come to your office, would they always come together, all three of them or would they sometimes comes separately?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, not at all, they'd come separately, they'd come together. For instance, if W/O Jagga and Jantjie had been to Lesotho and they'd gathered information, then perhaps only Jagga would come to me office, sometimes they'd together, sometimes one of them would come. It wasn't a specified meeting that I'd had with them.

MR VISSER: My attorney is just passing a note to the witness to go a little bit slower, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I noticed that the past was reduced.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm sorry, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was there any reason - you see, let me put it to you this way, Mr Thulo seemed to have given the impression that he was excluded from certain inner circle discussions about information that was gathered in Lesotho, was that the position?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you remember today from your own recollection, your meetings not having been formal minuted meetings, who attended gatherings, each gathering for example in regard to the present four victims when discussions took place about them?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I cannot remember that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So if Mr Thulo says that he was not present when Ms Betty Boom was discussed, can you argue with that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm in no position to argue with that.

MR VISSER: But it wouldn't have been because he was intentionally excluded?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Not at all, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Robertshaw, you were personally involved only in the fetching of two of these people, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Which two were they?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Betty Boom and Tax Sejanamane.

MR VISSER: You heard the evidence about how it came about that Betty Boom was recruited as an informer.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I did, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And does that evidence accord with your recollection of what you were told at the time?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It does, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And also as far as the others are concerned?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Alright. Now perhaps just answer this, why did you go along in the instance of two of these people and not in the instance of all four of them?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, my position was being their Commander in the first place, I was involved with their activities as far as I was able to. I enjoyed going out with them, it was - I didn't like being caught up in an office and it was also for moral support. I saw it as part of my work and part of my duties and it happened that way.

MR VISSER: Can you recall the day when Ms Betty Boom was fetched?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I recall - I don't remember the exact date, but I recall the incident.

MR VISSER: Can you just give us a brief sketch of your recollection of that incident that day.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We entered Lesotho through the Maseru border post. We drove to - I don't know the area, the different areas in Lesotho, but we drove quite some way into Maseru, and we stopped alongside the road and a female entered the vehicle and we drove back.

MR VISSER: It was as simple as that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It was basically as simple as that.

MR VISSER: Mr Jantjie was under some impression about a proposed abduction of Ms Betty Boom, does that accord with your recollection?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's what we discussed yes, it is my recollection.

MR VISSER: How would the abduction issue have worked, would you have to go and make it appear as an abduction, or would that only enter the picture later?

MR ROBERTSHAW: If something - basically, if there were other people that would witness the occasion, or if we'd received information later on that she's been seen in our presence we would have let the word go out that she'd been abducted.

MR VISSER: And would that have been to give her a cover, to justify her absence to her own organisation?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And this whole issue of the farm, can you just tell us what you know about this farm, when you started using it, for how long you used it, and how it came about that this farm was being used.

MR ROBERTSHAW: This farm was only used for this occasion, these occurrences that have been heard by this Commission. I'm not aware of that farm having been used for any other occasion. To the best of my recollection, it was W/O Jagga that organised the farm. We didn't have that farm at our disposal for longer than three or four months, as far as I can remember.

MR VISSER: Mr Jagga said two months, do you disagree with his reckoning of the time that you had it? I think he said November and December.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I won't dispute that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER Is your recollection that it might have been longer?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It might have been longer, yes.

MR VISSER: Alright. But this whole affair with the four present victims, took no more than a week at a time?

MR ROBERTSHAW: The first three.

MR VISSER: The first three took a week.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Approximately a week, yes.

MR VISSER: And KK took a day or two, isn't that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm not - probably a day or two, I'm not quite sure if it was a day or two.

MR VISSER: Alright, well make it a week. So in other words, you actually used the farm for approximately two weeks, is that correct?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, who's testifying here, you or him? I mean you're leading him with times and so on, let him tell us what his recollection is, rather than you suggesting to him what the time periods are. Please.

MR VISSER: I was trying to make it short, I didn't think it was that important.

How long did you use this farm in total?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Probably about two weeks, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You said in your statement that you're unable to recall each and every meeting, but that you were aware of all the actions taken by the three persons in your section, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: May I ask you, as far as the evidence is concerned that this Committee has heard, was there anything that they did, as far as you are concerned, that conflicted with any of your instructions to them or with what you expected of them?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Not that I'm aware of, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: May I then on that score immediately ask you about Mr Ngono. At the time that Mr Ngono was discussed, can you recall precisely who were present at that, let's call it a meeting?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I can't recall precisely, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And can you recall what your instructions were in regard to Mr Ngono?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I told them that they must attempt to recruit him, if that failed, then they must attempt to abduct him.

MR VISSER: Was it your intention that that instruction should mean that they should follow specifically that sequence of the order?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was it your intention that it was an alternative order?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: When you heard when they came back that there was not attempt to recruit Ngono in Lesotho, did you consider for a moment that that was a breach of your order that you gave them?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you accepted that what they had done was in the proper execution of the order which you'd given?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now at this meeting where Mr Ngono was discussed, we know from the evidence of Mr Jagga that there was a file available on Mr Ngono, to which the Security Branch had access, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you remember whether that file was available at the time of your meeting or meetings about Mr Ngono, and whether reference was made to the background of this person, in the file?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I don't know if - we're coming back to the meeting as well, I don't know if the file was ... at the time that we were discussing this, but the file would have been available in our filing room if we had wanted it.

MR VISSER: Although you can't remember whether it was physically present at the time when you spoke about it?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I can't remember that.

MR VISSER: Alright. Mr Robertshaw, give the Committee the benefit how you saw your position in the Security Police during the conflict of the past and how you saw your duties, in relationship to this application for amnesty.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm not sure I can understand the question completely, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Well when you gave these orders, did you give it from a personal perspective or what did you think you were doing?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I gave these orders specifically as a result of the position that I was in, of the circumstances of the day, that we were actually - my impression was that we were involved in an actual war with these people and that we would have to do anything in our capabilities to try and stop what was going on, what the ANC were trying to do.

MR VISSER: Was it your aim to protect the interests of the South African Government at the time?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And who was the majority shareholder of the government of the time?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It was the National Party, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Now do you have knowledge of the consequences of any information that might have been received from Ms Betty Boom?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Just ask that again please.

MR VISSER: Do you know whether information regarding the activities of MK, was received from Ms Betty Boom?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Is this prior to her being brought to Ladybrand, or at ...

MR VISSER: Well both, at any stage.

MR ROBERTSHAW: The information that she supplied us with?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, she supplied us with information about MK activities in and outside Lesotho.

MR VISSER: You heard the evidence of Mr Jagga?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I heard the evidence of Mr Jagga.

MR VISSER: About Mr Tony Yengeni?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And he mentioned a name of a person in Bloemfontein, is that right?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And who was that person?

MR ROBERTSHAW: He mentioned the name, Makanda. It's almost like Makanda. I can't remember the correct name of that person.

MR VISSER: Yes. It may be Kapanda, it's something that sounds like that.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's possible, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, I have no further evidence-in-chief from this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, could I just say something please?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, certainly.

MR ROBERTSHAW: In my statement, paragraph 3 on - I don't know which ...(indistinct) reads - it's 22B in paragraph 3 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just bear with me for a moment. 22B?

MR ROBERTSHAW: 22B, paragraph 3. I'll read it:

I'd just like to add there:

MR VISSER: Do you mean to say in as far as he refers to you? Is that what you're saying.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, that's what I'm trying to say.

MR VISSER: And in incorporating Jantjie's evidence, you incorporated the statement, not his evidence that he gave?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: In fact, while you're on that score, do you agree with everything that Mr Jantjie told this Committee?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I don't agree with everything that he told the Committee, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Malindi, are you taking the queue?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I will continue with this witness.

Mr Robertshaw, would you agree that Thulo's evidence amounts to saying that he was not allowed into the interrogation room where Betty Boom, Nomasonto Mashiya and Tax Sejanamane were being interrogated?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, I don't know if we can refer to it as an interrogation room, she was being debriefed, basically, in a room at the farm. If he was not allowed in there - I wasn't there all the time, so I can't give an answer to that.

MR MALINDI: And he also indicated that sometimes within the section there are things that he wouldn't know about and he wouldn't even ask about them and that was the way things worked.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I never excluded any information from him wilfully. If he wasn't present when certain things were discussed, then he might interpret it as if we hadn't told him, but it was never done wilfully to excluded him from anything.

MR MALINDI: And with that evidence in mind and him having only last seen the victims that are the subject of this enquiry, at the farm, it gives the impression that he last saw them on the farm when they were being put in that room where they were being questioned or debriefed or interrogated, and he never saw them again. That's the gist of his evidence, do you agree?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I agree with that. I don't know if he saw them after that, he might have seen them in Lesotho, I'm not sure.

MR MALINDI: Well his evidence is he last saw them on the farm. That was his answer to one of the Committee Member's question.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's what he said, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Do you agree with the evidence so far, that you had information about Betty Boom's cell and you had information that they were preparing to launch attacks into the Free State, in particular?

MR ROBERTSHAW: We had that information, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And as a section gathering intelligence, your role would have been to alert the relevant security arm, to either arrest them when they go out on this mission, or to intercept them or something to that effect, is it not so?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, are we talking in general now, or are we talking specifically about this?

MR MALINDI: In general.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson, that was one of our tasks, amongst others.

MR MALINDI: And will it be fair to say in this instance, you had enough information to alert other Security Forces to effect arrests, at least, upon this unit of Betty Boom's?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't follow the gist of the question, can you clarify please? I'm not sure.

MR MALINDI: Sure. If your role was to gather information and to pass it on to relevant arms of the Security Forces, and one of those arms would - I think you would agree with me, the Security Forces that will effect arrests upon people that you've gathered information on, when they launched attacks into South Africa. What I'm suggesting is that you had enough information to ensure that this whole unit is arrested if and when they launched attacks into the Free State. You agree with me?

MR ROBERTSHAW: At the time?

MR MALINDI: Yes.

MR ROBERTSHAW: If we had the information that they were going to launch attacks into the Free State and they did that, then we would take measures to arrest them or prevent them from doing so.

MR MALINDI: In the applications before the Committee, there's reference that you had knowledge that this unit was about to launch attacks during the Xmas period, into the Free State. Did you have that information yourself?

MR ROBERTSHAW: If we have a look at - you're talking about this unit, you're talking about Betty Boom's unit?

MR MALINDI: Yes.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, they had people inside the Republic, the people inside the Republic were going to commit these attacks. It wasn't that they were going to come out of Lesotho and commit the attacks.

MR MALINDI: Well at a later stage I think I'll refer to the applications which clearly indicate that this unit was going to launch attacks.

MR ROBERTSHAW: How wide is - the question is, how wide was the unit? How big was it? How many people belonged to the unit?

MR MALINDI: Well one application form, I think it's Jantjie's application form, it first says the unit consisted of three people and then in the supplementary papers it says it consisted of four people. Is that your information that you had?

MR ROBERTSHAW: The unit inside Lesotho?

MR MALINDI: Inside Lesotho.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, that's correct.

MR MALINDI: Well if one looks at page 9 of Jantjie's application, which all associate yourselves with, the second paragraph from the bottom, which reads - the second sentence:

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: I read that to say this unit which is inside Lesotho was responsible for coming into the Republic and launching attacks. Do you agree with me?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Just let me read it again please. I read it differently, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: How do you read it?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well if you read it:

I don't read that to say that they were going to infiltrate and they were going to ... they had to organise.

MR MALINDI: Maybe it will be a question of argument on how that sentence should be interpreted.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: The next sentence does go on to say that though that it's dealing - you're talking about the cell?

MR ROBERTSHAW: About four ...

MR LAX: Yes. This is the cell that they're talking about.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.

MR LAX: And the cell is the subject of the sentence, not Betty Boom.

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And therefore it's the cell that's responsible for the attacks.

MR ROBERTSHAW: The cell is responsible, that's correct Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: My suggestion is that you had enough information that this cell was going to launch attacks in the RSA, in particular in the Free State, all you had to do was to inform other sections of the Security Forces, they could have arrested the whole of this unit, which must have been their main objective of securing the country at the time.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We did that, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: No, you didn't arrest the unit, you in fact tried to re-transform the unit and make it all informers, instead of arresting them. Which was the more effective way of dealing with...

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, we utilised the information and when utilising that information this person that we've referred to before was killed in Bloemfontein. There were also other people killed in a roadblock in Bloemfontein. That was a result of the information that we'd received from the cell.

If I can just carry on on that, Chairperson, we had information that they wanted to attack the, well bomb the Army offices in Maitland Street as well and that was also, guards were placed to guard the area so that didn't take place.

MR MALINDI: Well the previous witnesses, if I remember well, could only remember the incident involving Tony Yengeni and the other person that you referred to in-chief, in Bloemfontein, and both incidents that we ...(indistinct) verify at this stage, isn't it?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm telling you what I remembered, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: You say that the discussions about abductions you were aware of, but at the end of the day these people were not abducted, that's Betty Boom, Nomasonto and Tax.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Betty Boom wasn't abducted, Chairperson, but - I don't know if it would amount to abduction if you took somebody out of a country and took away their freedom by false pretences, I'm not au fait with the law in that respect.

MR MALINDI: You agree with the previous witnesses, that they were not forced into these vehicles that fetched them, they actually came in willingly, voluntarily?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I can only speak on behalf of two of them, Chairperson, and that was Betty Boom and Tax Sejanamane.

MR MALINDI: The ones that you were involved with?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: But the question remains, you've given a reason for initially wanting it to appear as kidnapping, as an abduction, why at the end didn't you effect that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Sorry?

MR MALINDI: Why didn't you make it look like an abduction, for the reasons that you gave in-chief?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Why did we not do it?

MR MALINDI: Yes.

MR ROBERTSHAW: It wasn't necessary, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Well the evidence is that you sent them back into Lesotho in order to operate as informers, and the reason why you wanted it to appear as an abduction initially, was so that if anybody saw them being taken away they wouldn't suspect that they were being taken away because they co-operated with you.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, you're referring to they, who are you referring to?

MR MALINDI: I'm referring to the Betty Boom unit.

MR ROBERTSHAW: To all of them?

MR MALINDI: The cell. Okay let's deal with one person at a time and let's start from the outset. Initially you wanted it to appear as an abduction, when you took or fetched Betty Boom from Lesotho.

MR VISSER: My learned friend has said that three times now, Chairperson, and that's not the evidence. The evidence was that initially it was supposed to be an abduction, that was Jantjie's evidence, that's not this witness's evidence. This witness says if it would become necessary later, if it appeared that people either saw them or that there were suspicions, they would then use it as a cover to put out the word that she was abducted, in order for her to have a cover to back to the ANC. That was this witness's evidence. He never said that it was supposed to be a pretended abduction from the word go, that was not his evidence.

MR LAX: Except to say that he did say that the initial plan was to make it look like an abduction, if there were people in the vicinity and then later, if it later appeared that they were seen. Now those are two slightly contradictory versions, but be it as it may, I'll clarify that with him in due course. But the fact of the matter is that all the witnesses, all the applicants in essence, were under the impression that the object of the exercise was to effect a purported abduction if, if there were people in the vicinity.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. Or if there would be problems later.

MR LAX: Well you couldn't do it, you couldn't conduct an abduction ex post facto when you've already taken the person without abducting them, it's just insane.

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, we can argue about that. I will tell you, that's as easy as falling out of a tree.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, let us rather approach it this way.

Mr Robertshaw, were you part of the discussions when it became, or when the unit became aware that Betty was now under suspicion that she's co-operating with your unit?

MR ROBERTSHAW: They reported to me that there was a chance of her being compromised, Mr Chairperson. They did discuss it with me, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you agreed on the strategy that she "be abducted" from Lesotho, so that those suspicions be dispelled?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I agreed that she should be brought out of Lesotho, that's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's the tenor of how you wanted to question, Mr Malindi, I don't know.

MR LAX: Well can I, because it's now not clear to me at all, from your last answer, because all you say you agree to was that she should be taken out of Lesotho, you haven't agreed with what the Chairperson put to you, which was that she be "abducted" from Lesotho. (in inverted commas)

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well if it's "abducted" (in inverted commas), I agree with you, that's correct Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you, now we're on the same ...

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

I'm going to put to you the difficulty that I have with this approach, which I've put to Mr Jagga before. That Betty Boom is collected from wherever she was collected, in broad daylight, and then she's taken to Ladybrand. There was a risk that somebody could have seen her being taken away, is it not so?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And then after spending about a week with her in Ladybrand, she's taken back into Lesotho. Was that act not an act that's defeating the purpose of having a secure informer within the ANC? Just in case she was seen jumping into your car voluntarily and so on.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, we'd received no report from any other informer whatsoever that she had been, in the first place, missing, and in the second place, that she'd been abducted or seen in our presence.

MR MALINDI: So what you mean is that your informers didn't see you take her away from Lesotho?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's not what I mean, Chairperson. What I'm trying to answer is that we had no information to say that anybody had seen her in our presence, or that it was believed that she was working with us during the time that she was with us. It seemed perfectly safe to us to take her back to Lesotho.

MR MALINDI: And she would have a good explanation for her absence for a week, if she had to give such an explanation to members of her unit and members of the higher organs?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, she was the Commander of the Free State Machinery, she didn't have to answer to anybody in Lesotho. If she - it must have occurred on many occasions that these operatives would disappear from time to time and it wouldn't be questioned, especially if she's in charge of the cell, her cell. She was the person in charge, she could have given any answer if she asked - well she could have handled the situation.

MR MALINDI: And then you later learnt that she is being suspected within - let me start by saying, Chairperson, after she was recruited in Lesotho and agreed to cooperate with you, before the abduction, you did learn that she's being suspected of co-operating with you. Is it not so?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That was reported to me, that's correct Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: So in other words, it means she was being watched herself and she had to report to someone.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know if it means that, Chairperson, I don't know if she was being watched by anybody, perhaps she was just seen by somebody speaking to her handlers. I don't know the circumstances regarding what brought about the whole issue of her being, perhaps being seen in the company of some of our members.

MR MALINDI: She must have been seen with her handlers and word got to the ANC that she's been seen with some strange people and there were suspicious and that is why you had to stage this abduction. Do you agree with me so far?

MR ROBERTSHAW: She could have been seen. As I've said, I don't know the exact circumstances which led up to this.

MR LAX: Can I just interpose?

As far as you can recall, what was the nature of the compromise, of the extent to her being compromised?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, as far as I can remember, and honestly it is vague, I can't remember clearly, I think the gist of the thing is that there was a possibility that she could have been compromised because of being seen in the company of Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie, but that's the only thing I can ...

MR LAX: And do you have any recollection of by whom she was being suspected?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson, I haven't.

MR LAX: You don't remember that sort of detail?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I can't remember that detail, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see, the evidence we've heard is that when she was on the farm she in fact confirmed that there were suspicions about her. You must have debriefed her on the farm.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I didn't debrief her at all, Chairperson, I wasn't involved in her debriefing or anything to that nature.

MR LAX: Who debriefed her?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mr Jantjie and Mr Jagga.

MR LAX: That's what they said, they said the two of them were the only ones that debriefed her. Did you debrief any of the others?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I did not, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well what discussions did you have with them, individually or together?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well hardly any discussions with them as a group. I'd find out, ask after their well-being, find out what they needed, I'd visit them occasionally on the farm. I wasn't on the farm all the time, Chairperson, I had other duties to do.

MR LAX: So when Thulo says you and Jantjie and - you pronounce it Yaya, do you?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Jantjie?

MR LAX: No.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yaya, ...(indistinct) Yaya.

MR LAX: Yes. When you and Jantjie and Jagga went into the room, just the three of you and he was left outside, you weren't part of a debriefing at that stage, what were you part of?

MR ROBERTSHAW: If I went into the room - I can't recall it like that, Mr Chairperson, it could have happened like that, but it wasn't that I was being part of the debriefing party. If I'd gone into the room with them, it could have been so. But I wasn't involved in any debriefing of either, any of them.

MR LAX: You see that was his evidence, that he was left out and you were part of that and he went on to describe it as questioning, interrogation, or other things like that.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's what he said. I heard him say that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So you say you weren't part of that, you were simply enquiring as to their well-being, etcetera?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, there was nothing, there was no reason for me to get involved in any debriefing at all.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Malindi, I've interposed long enough I think.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Robertshaw, I'm sorry if I'm making you repeat an answer that you have already given. What was the purpose of then fetching Betty Boom from Lesotho and taking her to Ladybrand?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It was, in the first place, because of the threat that existed that she could be compromised and secondly as well, was to enable her handlers to fully debrief her on all the information that she had, which takes a long time, it's not a question of getting that sort of information in an hour or half an hour or so, it takes a long time to debrief somebody about all the information that they have got, which wasn't, you couldn't do it in Lesotho. Especially a person of the profile of Betty Boom.

MR MALINDI: Well then the act of taking her into Ladybrand did not serve to limit or reduce the suspicions, it must have served to increase the suspicion that she was a doubtful cadre of the ANC? I mean taking her away for about a week.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I suppose that's a matter of opinion, Mr Chairperson, I don't think so.

MR MALINDI: And then you heard the evidence of Jantjie and Jagga that how easy it was for them to recruit Betty Boom, she complained that she was not getting financial support from the ANC and that just opened the doors for them to recruit her as an informer.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I heard that evidence, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And you heard that she was tired of the struggle?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I heard that as well, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And she actually wanted out.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I heard that as well, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: You've already indicated that Nomasonto was highly - Betty Boom was a highly placed person in MK and in order to deal with her you needed enough time and so on, is that recognition of the fact that she's a highly placed person in MK?

MR ROBERTSHAW: She was a highly placed in MK, Chairper-son.

MR MALINDI: Why would such a highly placed person in MK, make it so public that she was disgruntled within the ANC, she wants out?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I'm not in a position to answer why she would it public, but it was made public by her.

MR MALINDI: Because the point that I want to make is that a soldier in a liberation army, if they showed those tendencies that they wanted to desert for the reasons that have been given by Jantjie and Jagga, that act would have been a stupid act on their part, because they wouldn't be trusted as loyal soldiers, isn't it so?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't follow completely, perhaps I'm - I don't follow exactly what you're saying now.

MR MALINDI: What I'm saying is that a highly trained, highly placed soldier of MK would hardly desert the army for the reasons that have been given by Jantjie. Do you agree with me?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I can't speak for the person's reasons as to why they want to do a thing like that.

MR MALINDI: It sounds highly ...(intervention)

MR ROBERTSHAW: It's happened before, it's happened on a number of occasions that people have turned away from the ANC and given information. This wouldn't be the first case that this has ever happened. Mainly it's because of the lack of money. When these people - I'm not using a, doing it collectively, but you get individuals that would do it for money. The actual motivation behind their thoughts and so on, I can't tell you.

MR MALINDI: What I'm finding improbable is that such a highly placed person is recruited whilst in Lesotho, no force is used, she voluntarily comes across into Ladybrand, she agrees to continue to work for you. A day after, another person is fetched, Nomasonto, she immediately agrees to work with you. A day after, another person is fetched, Tax, he agrees with you. A whole unit of highly trained cadres of MK, turns against the ANC just like that, is unbelievable.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Perhaps it sounds unbelievable, but that's what happened, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You know we have heard a lot of - firstly, to say you're correct, there were people who turned their backs on the ANC, but on different grounds. We have heard how askaris were turned to work for the Security Forces, but we also were told about the amount of pressure exerted on them to work as askaris for the Security Forces. And I think what Mr Malindi is driving at is that with these three it's merely an approach, to these four it's merely an approach and everything just works hunky-dory.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, it happened like that you know, I don't know how to answer the question.

MR SIBANYONI: Well maybe to refer to what Eugene de Kock once said, he said ...(intervention)

MR ROBERTSHAW: Sorry, I can't hear you, people are making a noise, Chairperson.

MR LAX: It might help if you put the headphones on.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Oh sorry. Okay, sorry.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm saying, in one of the amnesty applications I remember De Kock's words were a little bit harsh, because he was saying ...(intervention)

MR ROBERTSHAW: Sorry Chairperson, this is in Sotho, it's coming through in Sotho.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm saying, in one of the hearings Eugene de Kock put it very harshly, he was saying when these ANC cadres were captured they had to choose between two things, either to cooperate with the police, or to be eliminated and then he gave the impression that - he also said, in one of the applications that he ... they had not time to take these people to court, because it was useless, you wouldn't get any people to be witnesses and the like and then the only thing which will save a captured person was to agree to work with the police.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I will not dispute what he said, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: May I just follow up by saying, a highly trained person or a person with a high position in the ANC, we will find it strange for that person just to immediately agree to turn and work against the ANC, without any resistance.

MR ROBERTSHAW: It does sound strange, Chairperson, but I think these circumstances that we're describing here are unique circumstances, it's not the general rule, the normal sort of thing that transpired.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Chairperson. I'm sorry to intervene.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

You see, it sounds to have happened so well and so easily that it tends to raise the question whether something was not hidden from Thulo. These people were brought to the farm, he last saw them on the farm, he was not allowed into the room where they were being questions or debriefed, or whatever. It sounds like it would be fair to suggest that these people arrived on this farm and they were last seen on this farm.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, as I've said before, I wasn't on the farm, I can't really comment on what transpired and where Thulo was and why he was not ... but I think I know why he was not in on the debriefing and so forth.

MR LAX: Well if you know, tell us.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson. I think an informer is not happy with people in their presence that they're not familiar with, they're not at their ease ad they don't want to talk freely in front of somebody that they don't know and don't trust. If you don't know somebody, you don't trust them. If you haven't been working with somebody, you don't trust them. So I can only assume that that is the reason why he wasn't in on the debriefing, he wasn't part of the handlers.

CHAIRPERSON: As a colleague, instead of being shown another room to occupy, why wasn't he told this, that: "Look, you've got to be away because now these people are accustomed to Jagga and Jantjie, that you wouldn't be required in the debriefing"? And further, that these people according to Jantjie and Jagga, they were the people who made contact with Ms Betty Boom, but you went into that room despite being a person not known to Betty Boom?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson, but I wasn't part of the debriefing.

CHAIRPERSON: And the first part of my question, why it was not said to Mr Thulo that: "Look, we wouldn't require you here in the debriefing, you go somewhere because she must speak to people she's accustomed to"?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I don't think it would be necessary to tell somebody that's a field operator, that is a handler of sources themselves, I think it's, only if you're invited to sit in on a debriefing, would you even consider being there.

CHAIRPERSON: But in this instance, if I understood him correctly, it was like he was told: "You go there", and the only time he would come around is when the others were not there to just guard these people. You heard that ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: Perhaps it was so that he was told to please wait in the other room or whatever, I'm not sure. I won't dispute that at all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you recall? I know this happened a long time ago, because with Ms Betty Boom, you were present when she was fetched.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were present up to the farm where Betty Boom was taken to.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's the first instance he speaks of him being shown to another room.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That could be so, Chairperson. I promise you, I can't remember. If I could remember, I'd tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

According to your explanation, Thulo may not have been allowed into the debriefing of Betty Boom, but why wouldn't he have been allowed into the debriefing of Nomasonto? I mean, neither Jantjie or Jagga had worked with Nomasonto before, they first saw her when they were told by Betty Boom, according to the evidence, "go and fetch Nomasonto and tell her that I've called for her."

MR ROBERTSHAW: I only can assume that it was part of the recruiting action, that he wasn't part of the recruiting action.

MR LAX: Well you see that's kind of strange, because only he and Jantjie went to fetch her, so you'd think that they being the two that fetched her, would be the two that she was most familiar with.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson. Chairperson, I'm just wondering why these questions weren't asked to Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie, they were busy with the recruitment and so on. Perhaps they could have given more light on this matter, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: No it comes to light because you brought it up, it never occurred before the reasons have given now. It only arises with you and it's just logical that these questions should be asked of you, and more so that you are also their Commander.

MR LAX: And especially because Thulo was the one who raised this issue of exclusion, everyone made the assumption, incorrectly or otherwise, that there was unit working here together, it was only in the light of Thulo's evidence that these matters suddenly became clear.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've got no specific reason for, or I can't give you a specific answer for that.

MR LAX: Please carry on, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you.

And the same applies to the other people who were abducted, they were not worked with before, Tax and KK, they were not worked with before from Lesotho, so they were not familiar with any of the four people of your unit. So for the same reason it doesn't make sense that Thulo is the only one who is excluded from debriefing or interrogation sessions.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well perhaps they decided from the beginning that the people that were going to handle these people were W/O Jagga and W/O Jantjie.

MR MALINDI: I was also going to say that because you were the Commander of this unit maybe we were hoping that you will shed more light on these issues.

Can you tell us, Capt Fouche, during these incidents about the four people in question, was he aware of what you and your unit and your section were doing?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, to the best of my recollection, I think Capt Fouche was on leave at that time. I can't recall telling him at the time, so he must have been on leave.

MR MALINDI: And in his absence while he was on leave, if he was on leave, you could take these decisions without him?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: If he was present, you would have told him.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I would have told him, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And I suppose if he was part of these incidents, then he would also feel obliged to apply for amnesty?

MR ROBERTSHAW: He would have applied for amnesty, I'm sure, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Just while you're there, Mr Malindi.

Did you not report to him when he came back from leave?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I would have told him, yes, I would have told him what had transpired.

MR LAX: So he would have had full knowledge of this series of incidents.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, he would have.

MR LAX: But he hasn't applied for amnesty, obviously.

MR ROBERTSHAW: He hasn't applied for amnesty, no.

MR MALINDI: Jantjie in his application on page 11, states that the objective of recruiting Betty Boom's cell and sending them back to Lesotho, was so that you could have - they could form part of an intelligence network within the ANC. Do you agree with that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I can't find the place in the ...

MR LAX: It's the top of page 11, the second paragraph.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got it now. Just let me read it please. I've read it, thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Do you agree that that was the purpose of recruiting them?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Is it not so that in the intelligence world, one informer must not know that the person sitting next to them is another informer for the same person?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Well, having the same unit as informers, does that make sense? It sounds to me quite strange.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well in these circumstances it made sense to us to do so.

MR MALINDI: One of them could have gone to the ANC and said: "By the way, while we were away, the reason why we were away for a week or some of us for shorter than a week, it's because we were being recruited and Betty Boom was the person who put the Security Police onto us", and your unit could have been destroyed.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That could have transpired, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And as a Commander of an Intelligence Unit, I mean you should have foreseen that and not done something as, for lack of a better word, as stupid as that. Isn't it so?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I was receiving reports from the people that were working with it and they assured me that there wasn't a risk, or there would have been a risk, but the risk was minimal that this would have happened.

MR MALINDI: But even before you took them into Lesotho, you already knew that there were suspicions around Betty, so what I'm suggesting to you is that to then try and make a whole unit to be informers was stupid and for a highly placed ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Perhaps the word "reckless" is more appropriate. Stupid, it's a bit rude, if you don't mind me being blunt.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I was struggling to find an appropriate word.

Very reckless. And for a highly placed intelligence officer like yourself, you should have foreseen that, that it would lead to problems.

MR ROBERTSHAW: It could have, as I've explained - perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, Chairperson. Once these people had been recruited I was informed by the people that had done the debriefing and had been speaking to them, that they were satisfied that we could send these people back and that they would be trustworthy as informers and that such an incident as what is being described by the Advocate, could take place, was minimal and it was worth the risk to do so. And we subsequently, we did exactly what I've said.

MR LAX: Can I just interpose?

Are you seriously telling us that that consideration even entered the picture?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Which consideration?

MR LAX: The consideration that they might actually turn and that they might actually undo each other, so to speak, expose each other? It wasn't a consideration that you realistically even thought of at the time. It's very easy sitting here in the cold light of day, to raise these things academically.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We thought of that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may, Mr Malindi.

Did you think of this in this context, if you have regard to page 11, the last paragraph and the top of that paragraph on page 12. I'll give you an opportunity to look at it.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've read the paragraph, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That whilst you were talking to them and now when this came to the fore, that they were required back in Lusaka, that they would tell about the contact they had with you people, that is your section?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That was a possibility, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And was this told to you by Jagga and Jantjie?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, was it told to me that they had to return to Zambia?

CHAIRPERSON: That Betty, when they made contact with Betty Boom, she said now they were required to go back to Lusaka?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give any advice to the contrary, that they should not, for instance?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I can't remember specifically doing so, but my advice would have been that they should not go back. Had I given advice.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did not do anything further to discourage them, as they were your valuable sources since they were responsible for the Machinery in the Free State?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I did not, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Robertshaw, when did you joint the Security Branch?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I joined the Security Branch in 1986 - sorry, Chairperson, 1976.

CHAIRPERSON: ... is because I had looked at your so-called CV, and that was in Durban.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: So by 1987, you had at least 10 years experience in the Security Branch?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And how long ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Minus two. Minus two, because he was out at some stage.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: As the Chairperson pleases.

And by December 1987, how long had you been in the section dealing with intelligence gathering?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I arrived in Ladybrand on the 1st of July 1986, so that would be approximately, say six months, after six months. Sorry, did I say '98?

MR MALINDI: '86.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I arrived on the 1st of July 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

And then taking all these four together now, Betty Boom's unit and Mbulelo Ngono, KK, they're all taken back into Lesotho, dropped at a taxi rank, broad daylight, very public area, and you hoped these people to be your informers within the ANC. Was that also not another reckless conduct on your part?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't think so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But you know, anybody could have seen you. I asked Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie this very same question, anybody could have seen them being dropped off in such a public place. And I mean, and this was the point, is that both Jagga and Jantjie conceded that they were well known in Lesotho.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, well know, you know well known is a relative term, I don't know if it was well known to whom in Lesotho? If they were well known to the population of Lesotho, were they well known to the police in Lesotho, or were they well known to the ANC people in Lesotho, to whom they were well known, I don't know.

MR LAX: Well as I've said to you, it really doesn't matter, the fact is they were people who were regularly in Lesotho. I mean Thulo says he was there three days out of five.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So there must have been people who were seen in and around Maseru regularly, their vehicles must have been seen regularly. It wouldn't take much to put two and two together.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, if they were seen - I don't know, I can't answer that question. All I know is that if they were dropped at the taxi rank, the taxi rank is a very busy place and people are getting in and out of vehicles every second of the day. To me it would be quite a safe place, who's going to take notice of these people getting in and out of the vehicle, or getting out of a vehicle, being dropped off at the taxi rank?

MR LAX: Well the point is that is the very place where you'd expect people to be seen, at a taxi rank. Whereas, if you dropped them off in a secluded place, the likelihood of anyone seeing them would have been much less.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's possible true as well, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Or if you dropped them off at night-time, it would also be much less.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We couldn't drop them off at night-time, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well the border was open till ten.

MR ROBERTSHAW: If I remember - could it have been open till ten, I think, I'm not sure if at that time if it was open until only 8 o'clock. I speak under correction.

MR LAX: Well even in the early dusk of the evening was still a better prospect.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I suppose that's a matter of opinion, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Yes. You know, what puzzles me, if I could just continue a moment longer, is surely at the point that you got wind of the fact that here this real peach of an intelligence opportunity is being recalled back to Lusaka, why didn't you just abduct them out of there against their will. Because these people were valuable to you man.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, we didn't know the reason for them being called to Lusaka, they could have been called up there, given new instructions and been sent right back to Lesotho.

MR LAX: But please, you knew there were suspicions, you knew they'd been partly compromised, I mean hey, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put it together.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well I'm not a rocket scientist anyway, Chairperson, but I didn't know the reason why they were being called back to Lusaka, it could have been for any purpose whatsoever. It wouldn't be the first time they'd been called to Lusaka, as far as I'm concerned, and if they're sent back, it wouldn't be the last time they'd been called to Lusaka. Perhaps coming back from Lusaka they would have had much more valuable information that they could have supplied us.

MR LAX: Well if that was the case, then why did you testify earlier that you, if you had, because you can't remember whether you did, but if you had, your advice would have been: "Don't go, for goodness sake don't go"?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That would have been my advice, that's correct.

MR LAX: And why would you have given them that advice? Because you would have known it would have been a dangerous thing to do.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Because there was - exactly.

MR LAX: Well thank you, that's why I'm suggesting this to you, because it's such an obvious thing. But anyway. Carry on, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

And if you had any thought that they were going to be given bigger and better responsibilities, you'd have encouraged them to go?

MR ROBERTSHAW: If we had known the purpose of it, yes, but we didn't the purpose. That was a possibility.

MR MALINDI: And after maintaining some contact with Betty Boom, until the call she made to the effect that she and her cell have been called to Lusaka, you got no information about her from your own informers, is it not so, about her or other members of the cell?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Not that I - I can't recall anything like that, Chairperson, I didn't personally handle informers. If he's referring to informers that were handled by the members of the Security Branch at Ladybrand, I can't recall anything like that.

MR MALINDI: After her disappearance, the evidence of Jantjie is that you had no information about her whereabouts. After that call that she made about Lusaka, you had no other information from other informers about her whereabouts or the whereabouts of the other members of her cell?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, we didn't have any further information about them.

MR MALINDI: You see what I would like to suggest is, if they were indeed taken back to Lesotho, the chances are that Lesotho flooded with about 20 informers handled from Ladybrand, you would have received some information that "after Betty Boom had disappeared for a week, we have sighted her at a taxi rank or at her house", or something like that.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know, Chairperson, if these people knew that Betty Boom had disappeared for a week in the first place.

MR MALINDI: Well I'm saying if your informers were jacked up, they were competent informers, they would have noticed that Betty Boom has disappeared for a week. They would have said: "Betty Boom disappeared for a week, we've sighted her now after a week". You would have received such information at least.

MR ROBERTSHAW: It could have been so and it could not have been so, I'm not in a position to answer that question.

MR MALINDI: And after Xmas, up to the time that she phoned about Lusaka, one would have expected that some informers would have given you information about her, where she was and so on, because that was the routine, that your section was getting information consistently about her and her cell.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We could have possibly got information about her, I can't remember.

MR MALINDI: Well what I'm suggesting is that you didn't get anything from the day that you abducted her and other members of her cell and KK, because they were never returned to Lesotho.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I was told by W/O Jagga and by W/O Jantjie, that they were returned to Lesotho. So as far as I'm concerned, they were returned to Lesotho.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify this?

You yourself have no knowledge personally, other than what's been told to you, that they were taken back to Lesotho?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I wasn't present when they were taken back, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Because I mean just hypothetically, if Jagga and Jantjie went off and did something awful to these people without telling you, you would just be labouring under the same misapprehension as anyone else?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, just at this juncture I wonder if it's an opportune moment, I have promised the Translators that we'll take a break at three thirty. I apologise not having informed you before. We'll take a break at this juncture and come back at quarter to four.

MR MALINDI: We can do so, Judge, thank you.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, you may proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: (cont)

Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Robertshaw, when you were part of the team fetching Tax - you were part of that team, isn't it?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: You heard Mr Thulo say that Tax seemed as if, or looked as if he wanted to run away before Jantjie called to him and told him that no, you guys have been sent by Betty Boom. Did he actually run away, or how did he behave?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I can't recall. I didn't even really know what Tax looked like, I can't recall anybody trying to run away.

MR MALINDI: But when you arrived at the spot where you had to pick him up, did you see him immediately, or at what stage did you see him? Did you see him walking towards the car or did you see him waiting, what was the position?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I saw him when Jantjie approached him, that's when I realised that was the person we had to come and pick up.

MR MALINDI: And was he showing his back to Jantjie, or were they facing each other, speaking.

MR ROBERTSHAW: They spoke. I can't remember if he was showing his back to him, those details I can't remember, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just interpose?

Did Jantjie get out of the vehicle and go up to him?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, to my recollection he got out of the vehicle.

MR LAX: Please carry on.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps just to complete it, when he got out he went up to him?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, that's how I recall it, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Could you please turn to page 15H of the bundle.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm at page 15H, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Will you look at that page. At paragraph 37, which reads:

Before KK was abducted from Lesotho, did you know that he was staying with a girlfriend?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I didn't know that, no, not personally Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: But were you so informed by the section that intended, that you gave instructions to recruit him or fetch him?

MR ROBERTSHAW: What I remember, Chairperson, is that he was residing in Roma. It could have been that he was residing with his girlfriend in Roma, I'm not doing to dispute it at all.

MR MALINDI: So in other words you don't know those details? If anyone were to come here and say he actually had his own place where he stayed but on this particular day he was at his girlfriend's place where he was arrested, you wouldn't know?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I wouldn't know, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: There's a person who has made a statement which appears in the bundle, Hatiso Kadi, do you know this person?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I know the person, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And this person was recruited as an informer by the Ladybrand Special Branch.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's incorrect, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And ...(intervention)

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm sorry Chairperson, I don't know if you heard I said that's incorrect.

CHAIRPERSON: I did, I don't know if Mr Malindi did.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I didn't hear that.

MR LAX: He said that's not correct, he said it's incorrect. In other words that the man was an informer.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, it's not what I said, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, he said "of Ladybrand Security Police".

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

How do you know this person?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I saw him, he was an askari. Hatiso Kadi was an askari and he often came to Ladybrand.

MR MALINDI: And what was his role in Ladybrand?

MR ROBERTSHAW: To help people identify MK people, to help with information.

MR MALINDI: And when he was doing that in Ladybrand, was he doing it under your section?

MR ROBERTSHAW: He worked sometimes with my section. They fell under Bloemfontein, they had their people that were in charge of them in Bloemfontein. They would sometimes visit Ladybrand as well.

MR MALINDI: And in Bloemfontein, was that another intelligence gathering unit or ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know, you know you get an intelligence unit which is - there's more than one intelligence gathering unit, there's an intelligence gathering section which is completely divorced from the Security Branch, they don't even sit in the same offices. I don't know if you're referring to that or you're referring to people, Security Branch members that just gathered intelligence. I don't know, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Well in Bloemfontein, was he working in a section similar to yours in Ladybrand?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, they had their own section, they had a section that dealt just with askaris.

MR LAX: Just for clarification's sake, was this same section, for example, that operated similar to the one that say, operated in Durban with Col Andy Taylor, where they would use askaris to identify MK or PAC people that they may have met or known from exile or training, and capture them? In other words, the job of those kinds of askaris was to identify people, make contact with them and capture them.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, the capturing part I'm not so sure of, Chairperson. I don't think it would have been left to these askaris, there weren't many here to capture people. They'd probably have to identify and find out where they were and so forth. The first part of what you asked is correct.

MR LAX: Well then they may have then brought in a specialised unit like Vlakplaas or someone else, to do that.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

You made use of Kadi in your section in Ladybrand.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We could have made use of him, I can't remember specific incidents making ... none come to mind, but it's possible.

MR MALINDI: And according to his statement his very familiar with names of the people who were working in your unit, including the fact that Thulo was known as Koki.

MR ROBERTSHAW: He was known to everybody as Koki, that's correct.

MR LAX: Just while we're there, so that would hardly have been a cover name for him, to be called Koki, in Lesotho, I mean that's his name. It would have been easily identifiable that way.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's so, Chairperson, I'm not going to deny that, but he's was known as Koki to everybody. Everybody knew him as Koki.

MR LAX: But the point being that's it's hardly a cover name.

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I don't suppose it is a cover name, I agree with you.

MR LAX: And the same as Jagga calling himself Tony, in Lesotho, I mean it's using his own name. Again, it's ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: I think if I can remember correctly, Chairperson, he was known as Tony Montana or something like that, that's what he told the Court. I'm not sure if it is correct, it's just my best recollection.

MR LAX: Yes, but again it's - ja, if someone was to say to someone else: "Do you know that big chap, Tony, from Ladybrand" you know, "who works in the police?" Who would they think of?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, amongst police people and so on he's known as Toon, not Tony. He's Afrikaans speaking, he's known as Toon. Antonie is his name and everybody refers to him as Toon, not Tony.

MR LAX: But even so, it wouldn't be too hard to put two and two together.

MR ROBERTSHAW: It depends on who it is, ja.

MR LAX: Carry on, Mr Malindi. Sorry.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

At paragraph 6 of his statement which appears from page 42 onwards ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: Paragraph 6?

MR MALINDI: Paragraph 6. He states that he was interrogated by Jantjie, Thulo and Capt Fouche in 1986, are you aware of that incident?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I only arrived in Ladybrand in July 1986, so I wouldn't be aware of this.

MR MALINDI: And at paragraph 7 he says he was used to identify ANC members and houses, and you've just confirmed that askaris will be used for that purpose.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: After recruiting Betty Boom and other members of her cell and Mbulelo Ngono, why didn't you use them for the same purpose, instead of sending them to Lesotho, especially knowing that there were suspicions already around Betty Boom?

MR ROBERTSHAW: We were of the opinion that they would be more valuable to us in Lesotho itself, giving up to date information about ANC activities.

MR MALINDI: And at paragraph 7 on page 43, he says that Jantjie, Thulo, Robertshaw and Fouche were involved in the kidnap of Mageta. Do you know of that incident?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, that is a blatant lie, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Well let's see, are you saying you were not involved in that incident?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I was not involved in that incident, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Do you know if the others that are mentioned in paragraph 7, were involved in the incident or not?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've got no knowledge of this incident whatsoever.

MR MALINDI: Do you know Mageta, his other name was Old Timer?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've heard of him, I don't know him personally.

MR MALINDI: Was he ever at Ladybrand?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Not to my knowledge.

MR MALINDI: Thank you.

MR LAX: Let me just clarify, were you making that assumption? It may in fact not be the same person at all, we don't know for a hundred percent sure, because ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: Which same person? Sorry, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well we don't know whether this Mageta here that's being referred to as the ANC Chief Representative, is the same person as Old Timer.

MR ROBERTSHAW: He had the nickname of Old Timer, they used to refer to him sometimes as Old Timer.

MR LAX: So it is the same person?

MR ROBERTSHAW: There can be more Magetas with the nickname Old Timer.

MR LAX: Well as someone involved in information gathering you would have certainly been aware who the Chief Representative of the ANC in Lesotho was.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And was it a man called Mageta?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And was it that man, did he have a nickname or a nom de geurre maybe, as Old Timer?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, as far as I can remember he had a nickname Old Timer, yes.

MR LAX: Yes, so then we're not confused at all, we are talking about the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, let me clear this up with Mr Robertshaw. When you arrived at Ladybrand in July 1986, did you start this unit from scratch or was there a unit in Ladybrand?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, the word unit, it sounds ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I mean section, I know you prefer section, let's call it section, I'm conscious of that.

MR ROBERTSHAW: If I could perhaps - could I elucidate a bit, I don't want to waste the time of the Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, certainly.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We had different sections working different areas of intelligence and one of the areas was to gather intelligence from Lesotho, others were to gather intelligence regarding the SANCO activities in the different towns or trade unions' movements or church movements or far right-wing activity as well. I mean there were a whole lot of sections or ground that had to be covered. So one of these sections was Lesotho and I think if I can remember correctly, on coming to Ladybrand there were only two people working, but now I want to also tell you, working just on the ANC and the PAC and say, the South African Communist Party in Lesotho. There were other people on the branch that used to go to Lesotho for church matters or for other types of intelligence that we needed and we had to gather, but these people had to concentrate on the PAC and on the ANC and on the SACP and things like that. And as I said when I got there I think there were only two, that was Toon Jagga and Michael Jantjie.

MR LAX: And just to clarify, these were known as desks. Every Security Branch that I've ever heard of in all these hearings we've been part of, referred to being in different desks.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Ja, they were known as desks as well. You had your ANC and PAC desk and you had your ...(intervention)

MR LAX: And that was known as, to use the Afrikaans term "die swartmag" or "black power"?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.

MR LAX: That was that desk and it dealt with those people. There was another desk that dealt ...(intervention)

MR ROBERTSHAW: It wasn't specifically called the Black Power Desk, I mean I suppose different branches or different provinces for that matter, would have different terminology for it.

MR LAX: Well we've heard that consistently through so many different Security Branch offices.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, we must differentiate between a large provincial office and a small branch, we were a small branch, we didn't have the luxury of allocating people specifically to one desk. We didn't have enough people to do that.

MR LAX: I understand that, but for your information to be collected in a consistent way, okay, you would have collated it under those headings, because those were the categories that everyone else was using.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct. Perhaps we're missing each other on a point here, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: We are missing each other, that's why I'm trying to say, these things were, there was a consistent sharing of information and a consistent method of collating the information, in other words, of analysing it and making sure that you filled the right holes, so the information went into the right pigeonholes.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And that way you were able to make all the necessary cross-references that were required, that's how an intelligence system works.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's quite correct.

MR LAX: And just while we're on this point, if your section, as you call it, was busy gathering information in Lesotho, everyone in your section would have to know what was being collected, so that there could be a consistency of operation, so they weren't messing each other's informers up. They wouldn't necessarily know that X was your informers, but there were ways of making these things known without necessarily exposing the person.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So, I mean you know, the fact of the matter is that you would have had to brief your members regularly.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, we came together and we discussed matters that were pertaining their different sections, I wasn't just responsible for that section, there were a lot of sections.

MR LAX: No, no, I accept that. It's just that when you gave your evidence-in-chief you gave the impression that your meetings with these members of yours were very ad hoc. They spoke about a daily meeting, they spoke about a morning briefing.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't recall that, Chairperson, I don't recall them saying there was a daily meeting or a meeting every morning.

MR LAX: But it certainly is not as hit and miss as ad hoc, you must have had at least a weekly meeting or a fortnightly meeting, where you shared this information in a structured way.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, we used to come together when necessary and discuss the information at our disposal and decide what to do with it and how to utilise it. I mean that's ...(intervention)

MR LAX: But can I suggest to you, with the greatest of respect, that it wasn't ad hoc or when necessary, you had probably one of two meetings a month or sometimes four meetings a month and it was something you'd have to plan in your diary, so you'd all be able to fit it in.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I think we're talking about two different things now. The ad hoc meeting was about these people that we're talking about now, the victims, the so-called victims, there weren't specific meetings, detailed meetings that these people would have to attend and so on, about that. We had meetings concerning the general information gathering process and what was gathered and how it was going to be, to use your own words, the collation of it and the analysing it, on the dissemination of it. That's true.

MR LAX: So in fact, if you gave us the impression that you only met on an ad hoc basis, that was a wrong impression and that in fact the ad hoc nature of it is when very useful information suddenly pops up, that might form the basis for an ad hoc meeting?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson, whenever these people, first of all they'd have to ask permission to go to Lesotho, they couldn't just up and get into the vehicles and go to Lesotho, they'd have to come and report they're going to Lesotho, and once coming back, if it was in office hours, they'd have to come and report and say what they'd done in Lesotho, where they'd been, who they'd seen, what have they done. I mean that's just straightforward, it's ...

MR LAX: So old Thulo must have reported to you at least three times a week, because that's his recollection that he went to Lesotho at least three times a week.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, he could have done it many more times.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Robertshaw, the suggestion that I want to make out Kadi's statement is that people who were arrested in South Africa who were ANC members or people who were abducted from countries from where they operated from, were in the majority of cases used as Kadi was used, to identify ANC people, to identify their houses, to help with raids and so on, and you did an extraordinary thing of recruiting four people, on your version, kept them for less than a week, the three of them and Betty Boom for about a week, and then you sent them back into Lesotho to operate on your behalf. What I'm suggesting is that it is really improbable that an intelligence unit headed by a senior person like yourself would have done things that are so reckless.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I think we've covered this, I think I answered that before, that's what happened, we thought it was worth the risk.

MR MALINDI: And what I'm suggesting to you is, these people were never taken back to Lesotho, this is a story, a fabricated story put together to explain away the disappearance of these four people.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, I trust W/O Jagga and I trust W/O Jantjie completely, if they told me they returned these people to Lesotho, I believe them. So according to me they were returned to Lesotho.

MR MALINDI: Let us look at Trevor Pitso's statement which appears from page 51 of the bundle. You've got that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've got it, thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: On paragraph 1 he says he arrived in Lesotho on 24 December 1987, in Maseru, and then at paragraph 3 he says he phoned Betty Boom's telephone number and there was no answer. Can you see that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've got the place, thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And of course this is contrary to the evidence we have here that Betty Boom was being phoned from a next door neighbour's house.

MR VISSER: How does that follow, with great respect Chairperson? Frankly, I don't know whether the witness understands it but I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose you should lay a foundation for that kind of question.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

We agree that at paragraph 3 he says he phoned Betty Boom's telephone number and there was no answer?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's what stands here, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: At paragraph 3 also he says the domestic worker told him that Betty Boom left on the 16th of December and was never heard of again. Can you see that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've read that, thank you Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry, the part you're leaving out is that he traced through the Telecom, this is the crucial part of laying the foundation for the question, in a sense, is that he traced the address of that phone number, which was her home and then based on that - yes, it says ...

CHAIRPERSON: The foundation I wanted him to lay, and I suppose what Mr Visser was saying, to ask that kind of question what was in my mind, Mr Visser, was that the other applicants, for instance, Jantjie, said that after they established contact with Betty and when she was, or taken back, one of the two, she did not have a telephone at her home, they had to phone the next door neighbour.

MR VISSER: I thought that was what the question is about, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly that's how I understood you and that's why I said you should lay a foundation, not about the LTC.

MR LAX: That was the next part of the foundation. Yes, I was just getting it one after the other.

MR MALINDI: As the Committee pleases.

MR VISSER; May I ask, Chairperson, because this is going to determine what my reactions here are going to be, whether I've got to keep on jumping up and making objections, which I don't want to do, is this person going to be called? Can somebody tell us. Because if he's going to be called, then I'm certainly not going to start making objections every time. If he's going to be called, certainly I'll have the opportunity of cross-examining him and we'll sort out the whole situation. But if we could have, as a favour to me, an indication whether Mr Pitso is going to be called as a witness before you, I'd be very grateful.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your reaction, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, at this stage I am not certain whether we will be able to call certain witnesses, we've tried to make appropriate arrangements and we've encountered difficulties. My submission Chairperson, is that the witness can comment on the statement and unless I belabour the issue and the answers can be given, they either confirm or not confirm and depending on the answers it may be necessary to make further endeavours to call witnesses or not to call. If there's a concession, there's no need to call a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MALINDI: That's the value of the statements that are before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: So the base is just that you want comment on the statements?

MR MALINDI: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll allow that, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. I don't have any objection to that, but may I just be allowed then to give you the proper perspective of what this man says on paragraph 3. I want you to please bear in mind that from what I read to you, that he never says it was the telephone number of the house in which Betty Boom lived. He says:

that can be any telephone number, Chairperson. Assuming in the normal sense of the word, it could be her house, but that in my submission is only one of the possibilities, it's not exclusive that it must be her house.

Then he goes on and says:

not of Betty Boom.

and he doesn't tell us what that assistance was. He says:

Now Chairperson, with great respect, as long as it's put in perspective to the witness, that it is not assumed that this is the house in which Betty Boom, or one of the houses in which she lived, then I have no objection to the question.

MR LAX: The only thing that continues, if I may just draw your attention to it, is that he then goes on to talk about a housekeeper of her house who would have phoned normally about her absences.

MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, it doesn't say her house. He finds the housekeeper, I don't know, at the neighbour's house or wherever, I don't know where he finds her, he doesn't tell you.

MR LAX: It says on this occasion, the very same one he's talking about the sentence before.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, the point is he says he goes to a house, an unspecified house where he finds a domestic worker of Betty Boom. It doesn't mean it's her house. It could be probable that it's her house, I'm not arguing about that, that's why I said it would be helpful to know if Pitso was going to come and give evidence, because now Chairperson, I have to protect this witness and all I want, and nothing more, is just that the questions be put to him in the proper perspective, that he's not led to the assumption that it is now accepted that it was Betty Boom's house, because that would be unfair. That's the only point I'm making.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, you're heard your opponent and your colleague, could you tread along those lines?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, as I indicated, that is the position on calling witnesses or relying on statements. If I may be allowed to put the statement to the witness, it's unfortunate that it's already been debated in front of the witness, but let's hear what the answer will be.

Mr Robertshaw, the statement has now been read in full to you, would you agree with me if I suggest that Mr Pitso phoned a certain telephone number which he expected Betty Boom to answer and there was no answer through the entire festive season?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know if he phoned that number, this is just what I'm reading here.

MR MALINDI: Pardon?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know if he phoned that number, this is what I'm reading in the statement. I can't comment on that.

MR MALINDI: Yes, he phoned a number which Betty didn't answer.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know, Chairperson, I can't comment on that.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, as I say the whole argument took place in the presence of the witness and I'm going to leave it at that.

Paragraph 3 does say that the domestic worker, whether it was in Betty's house or the next door neighbour's domestic worker, disappeared around the 16th of December. That appears on paragraph 3, do you agree with that? ...(sic)

MR ROBERTSHAW: I agree it appears there. I can't remember the exact date that this took place.

MR MALINDI: But it's close enough to the date that you abducted her and took her to Ladybrand?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It's possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember around which time or which weeks in December the abduction took place?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, to the best of my recollection, I think it was - I'm not exactly sure when in December it took place, it's hard to say, it could have been in the middle of the month, it's quite possible. I'm not going to - I can't dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

And if, and it's if, if the domestic worker, whether it's Betty's domestic worker or the next door neighbour's domestic worker last saw Betty Boom on the 16th of December, it means she was not seen by her until she met Pitso, who arrived at the house of Betty Boom?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's how I interpret this what is written here.

MR MALINDI: And Pitso says he was in Maseru until 1989, that's at paragraph 4, and he never saw Betty Boom from the date that he arrived at Maseru and made his enquiries, until 1989 when he left for Lusaka.

MR ROBERTSHAW: What is the - do you want me to confirm or ...

MR MALINDI: I'm just saying it stands, that's what Pitso is saying in his statement. It's not necessarily true.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's what stands in his statement, yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, that the point I was trying to make. The witness has now given an answer which is utterly wrong, Pitso doesn't say in his statement that he didn't see Betty until 1989, he says - the last sentence in paragraph at page 52, he says something entirely different.

And that's what I was trying to avoid, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ... suggest that the try was continuous.

MR VISSER: It simply doesn't say that he didn't see her until that time, because that is the question that was put to this witness and he's agreed to it.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just first suggest to you Mr Malindi, that when you want comments about a statement which you may call a witness to confirm it or not, but if you want just comment, just stick to the gravity of what you're asking, it would make everybody comfortable. Because I don't even want Mr Robertshaw to agree to something that is totally wrong, I don't think that's the object from your side. But I'm merely cautioning, that let's try our utmost.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I'll endeavour not to confuse or make witnesses admit what is a misrepresentation of what is in the statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Robertshaw, you say you did not handle the witness, is that so?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm not aware of any witnesses, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: I'm sorry, I meant informers.

MR ROBERTSHAW: When you say handle them, do you mean did I personally debrief them and give them instructions and that type of thing?

MR MALINDI: Thulo and Jantjie testified that collectively they were about 20 informers that were informing on the liberation movements in Lesotho, did you have any direct contact with those informers?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I think if I remember, I'm speaking under correction, I think Jantjie said there were about 30 in Lesotho that he handled and I think Thulo said in the region of 13. I'm speaking under correction.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is that he spoke of 30 activists, not informers.

MR LAX: He had 20. I've checked the transcript on it.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I didn't have dealings with the informers directly.

MR MALINDI: Thank you. Mr Robertshaw, I'm going to read the transcript of the evidence of Jagga, I'm sure your legal team has a copy. At page 345, right at the bottom, the last two lines...

MR ROBERTSHAW: Page 345?

MR MALINDI: 345.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've got the page.

MR MALINDI: You've got the page. And the Committee, has the ...

CHAIRPERSON: We do, thank you Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: That's me asking a question to Mr Jagga:

on the next page the answer is by Mr Jagga:

What I'm suggesting to you is that when Betty Boom was at Ladybrand, at the farm, it therefore was not necessary for Betty Boom to give the name and the address of Tax Sejanamane, because he was already known by your section, is that not so?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, there's a difference between knowing about somebody and knowing exactly where they stay and what their daily routine is. When I came to Ladybrand they told me that one of the people in Lesotho was Tax Sejanamane.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Robertshaw, you sat throughout the evidence of all of them.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the tenor of this evidence is that Nomasonto Mashiya and Tax Sejanamane became known or contact was made after Betty Boom was already in "abducted" and she was at Ladybrand.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you follow the crux here of the question, is that what Mr Jagga is saying:

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So what I read into that is that they knew of Tax Sejanamane, then thereafter they knew of Betty Boom and then lastly of Nomasonto.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: As long as you understand that, I don't want to take the thunder, I don't know what question he's got in mind. You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

So with your capabilities as an intelligence section you could done to Tax what you did to Betty Boom, by monitoring her movements and so on, you could have done that to Tax before you were given the address and other information by Betty Boom.

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson, we could not.

MR MALINDI: What I'm suggesting to you is that these four incidents appear to have been incidents that took place at different times and that you and your fellow applicants have brought them together to make it easier for you to give an explanation for their disappearance, although their disappearances were at different times.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And then lastly, I have already put the suggestion to you that the victims were never returned to Lesotho, and I suggest to you that just as Thulo's observations are concerned, they were last seen on the farm in Ladybrand.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I've already stated that I was told by Mr Jagga and by Mr Jantjie that they returned them to Lesotho. I was not present when they were returned to Lesotho.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malindi. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.

Actually what information did you have of Tax Sejanamane, prior to the abduction of Betty?

MR ROBERTSHAW: The information that we had was that he was a trained MK cadre, that he was in Lesotho. We didn't know his precise whereabouts and what his actual functions in Lesotho were. That's all I can recall about him.

MR MAPOMA: How did you personally get to know that information?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That information?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That information I was told by the people at the branch at Ladybrand. There's also a file on Tax. We had a file, I don't know if it still exists. Which I doubt very much. But there was also a file on Tax Sejanamane.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. In that file did you not have information about his profile in the Orange Free State, prior to him going to live in Lesotho?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Undoubtedly there would have been. There would have been a full history of his activities in that file.

MR MAPOMA: I just want to put to you what the family's view is about Tax, what they say. If called to testify they will say so. I just want to have a comment on this. They say that Tax Sejanamane was your enemy, or let me say the Security Branch' enemy, even before he left South Africa, and when he was resident in Lesotho you were in search of him as the Security Branch. That's their view.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That we were looking for him in Lesotho as well?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, that's the family's ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now despite that now, are you saying that despite the fact that even prior to getting Betty to inform you about his whereabouts in Lesotho, you couldn't manage to get to know his addresses, his address in Lesotho?

MR ROBERTSHAW: We didn't know his address in Lesotho, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, bear with me.

And when you discussed about KK, the evidence of Mr Jagga is that they, he became aware that KK was involved in a shoot-out in Lesotho, only after that incident. Did you hear that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I heard what you said but I can't follow, I don't know what you're actually saying. Which incident and ...

MR MAPOMA: Okay. There's an incident in Lesotho which took place where a certain Mr Radebe was shot dead, he said Mr Matlageza Mphilo together with KK escaped.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the roadblock incident.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, I'm aware of that, thank you Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: There is that incident that took place. Now about that incident, Mr Jagga's evidence is that he only became aware of that incident after it occurred. Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it into perspective, this is what Mr Matlageza is saying. Wouldn't that be right?

MR MAPOMA: Pardon, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: When you speak of this incident and when Mr Jagga was questioned about this, this emanated from a statement by one of, I think it's Matlageza, if I'm not mistaken. The statement by Mnunya. You'll find it on page 56 of the bundle.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you Chairperson, I've got it, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And what Mr Mapoma is asking you is that Mr Jagga when he testified he said he knew about this incident. That's what Mr Mapoma is saying to you.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now what I want to find out from you is whether prior to the operation to recruit KK, you were in possession of that information?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I think to the best of my recollection we were in possession of that information.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Robertshaw. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Visser, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Just one or two issues, Chairperson, with your leave.

Mr Robertshaw, can you state from your own knowledge and recollection that your section was in fact in possession of the information about the shoot-out in Lesotho in which Mr Ngono was involved prior to the attempt or the recruitment of Mr KK? Are you able to state that from your own knowledge and recollection?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I'm not sure when it was, it could have been, it could have been afterwards, it could have been before it, I'm not sure. That's why I said it could be possible, it could have been before.

MR VISSER: Right. The point made also to you is that on the probabilities, if one had to speculate, somebody, and that somebody was from your section of the Security Branch, killed four these victims. Now you did not ask for amnesty for murder, is that correct?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And do you understand that you're not entitled, no matter what Order this Amnesty Committee makes, that if it should appear down the line that they were murdered, that you will not have amnesty for that? You understand that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I understand that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Any questions from the Panel?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

The recruitment of someone like KK is not something that would happen in one quick interview.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: The recruitment of someone like KK would have taken quite some time.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And that's what's puzzled me about this plan with regard to KK, because you gave the order and the go-ahead for that plan and the plan was to try and recruit him and if you couldn't recruit him, abduct him.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you had almost no hope whatsoever of recruiting him in a short conversation with him and the minute that possibility stopped existing, you would have had to, your members would have had to have abducted him?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson, but I never said to them they had to do it that specific day.

MR LAX: Well that's how they understood it.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know if they understood it that way. It was up to their discretion. The recruitment of somebody is as you've said it, it doesn't take place in five minutes, it can take a year to get a person recruited. If an opportunity also arose whereby they could have abducted him as well, then they could do that as well. There's no hard and fast rules to people that are in the field. You can give them directives, but you can't tell them exactly how to go about carrying out these orders, there's anything that can happen under the circumstances.

MR LAX: I hear you, I hear you. It's just that the probabilities as they appear to me, of them being able to recruit him in one conversation when they first make contact with him, are highly unlikely, and you've conceded that.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I concede that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And therefore, in reality they would have had no alternative but to therefore abduct him.

MR ROBERTSHAW: If the opportunity arose, Chairperson, that is so.

MR LAX: Well if they made contact with him that would have been the only logical thing left for them to do, in terms of your order.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Once again, if the circumstances permitted it, yes.

MR LAX: You see that's why it seems clear to me that they went straight to the police in Lesotho to try and get him arrested, because there was no, I mean there was just no way they could have recruited him in such a short time. And therefore it seems logical that the operation would have been to abduct him.

MR ROBERTSHAW: As I've said, Chairperson, if they weren't able to recruit him, then they were to abduct him. But I concede as well, you don't recruit somebody in five minutes, it's logical.

MR LAX: I'm just saying that it certainly doesn't make sense to me that they would even have tried to recruit him, they would have just gone for the abduction.

MR ROBERTSHAW: They may have seen the situation like that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Yes. And then just one last thing that has puzzled me as I've been listening to all this evidence and I'm asking it of you, because you were the Commander. Nowhere in any of these applications or statements is reference made to the object of this whole series of operations being to debrief anybody. It's something that's emerged in the course of the testimony of these people, but if you read these applications carefully, and I have, I assure you, nowhere is that a stated object of the operation.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Are you talking about the statements made for the applications?

MR LAX: Either the applications themselves, or their supplementary statements, nowhere is the stated object - you see you say there were two objects of this operation.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Can I use the term operation in the sense that it was one global operation?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I understand, Chairperson, yes.

MR LAX: Nowhere does it say the object was to debrief anybody. And that would for you have been much more important.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That was one of the objects, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you can't explain why it doesn't appear anywhere here?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I can't explain it.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Robertshaw, you said you were involved only with the occasion when Tax as well as Betty were fetched from Lesotho.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the reason, why were you not involved in the other instances when the other people were fetched, like KK and Nomasonto?

MR ROBERTSHAW: There is no specific reason, Chairperson, I was acting as the Branch Commander, I had a lot of other duties to perform. I can't give any specific reason why I wasn't there.

MR SIBANYONI: It would appear because Tax was a highly trained person and Betty was the Commander, it would appear you were involved because you would say in this instance we are going to catch a big fish as the Commander of the branch. That may be the reason why you wanted to be personally there.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Is that with Betty Boom? Is that referring to Betty Boom?

MR SIBANYONI: Betty Boom being a Commander and Tax being a person who is highly trained.

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, that is not so, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm a little bit puzzled about the fact that after these people are brought to the farm, it would appear you show less interest in their debriefing and as well as after they've been debriefed and taken back to Lesotho, there is no interest being shown on your part. What is your comment?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, it's not so that there was no interest being shown on my part, I had capable people to do the required work. It wasn't for me to debrief these people or to get involved in anything concerning them, further than what I did.

MR SIBANYONI: But as a Commander one would expect you to ensure that the plan is a success, that these people are converted into informers.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: But on the contrary, it seems as soon as they are on the farm you show no interest.

MR ROBERTSHAW: It's not a question of saying no interest, Chairperson, I deemed W/O Jagga and Jantjie to be completely capable of doing the work required from them. I wasn't going to sit and interfere with their work, I had other work to do anyway.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm going to put to you what I put to Mr Thulo, that being the fact that when one reads the statement of Tsietsi Mokhele, one gets the impression that Tsietsi is saying he was in exile and if these people were called to Lusaka, he would have found the information because he also did some search, and he makes an assumption that these people were killed by the police. What is your response to that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I doubt very much whether they were killed by the police. I have no knowledge of them being killed by the police.

MR SIBANYONI: You strongly believe that they were recalled or summonsed to Lusaka?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That is what I believe.

MR SIBANYONI: You are also aware that those people who were sort of suspected of being spies, were detained, some of them in camps and the ANC has submitted the names of those people who were suspected spies and some actions taken against them.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I know that these people were detained in certain camps, amongst others being Quatro Camp. I don't know if there's a full record of the people that were detained there and what happened to them.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Sibanyoni is actually getting to is that we have over other hearings, a list of people who died in exile and what the ANC has done is they gave us country by country the people who died.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, in exile.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, yes.

MR SIBANYONI: And the names of these four do not appear in any of the lists.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, that can be quite possible, I don't if they were listed or if they were not listed, but I know that a lot of these operatives had more than one name, they had more than one passport, they had more than one identity document. So if they're listed under the name of Betty Boom or Tax Sejanamane, I wouldn't know. They could have been listed under another identity document number or passport number or name or whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know her real name, Betty Boom?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I just knew her as Betty Boom, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The name of Joyce? Have you come across that in ...(intervention)

MR ROBERTSHAW: I think that was one of the names, that's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Sibanyoni.

MR SIBANYONI: Who was the owner of this farm in Ladybrand, where the debriefing took place?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know, Chairperson, that was arranged by Toon Jagga.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it on a temporary basis or don't you have information?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That was on a temporary basis, the farmer wanted somebody to look after the house for him while it was unoccupied.

MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, Sietsi Mokhele says when he was detained by the South African Police he was, if I remember his statement well, he was kept in Ladybrand and then at one stage he was threatened with death, he was taken to a river.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know anything about that, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni. I just want to comment and I've asked this consistently with your co-applicants, what Buthelezi says in his statement in these papers. It's starts from page 53, I think to page 55. The tenor of this statement suggests that around September in 1987, KK, Mbulelo Ngono left Lesotho and only returned a year later, not a year later, the following year. And what it suggests is that if that should be so, then it means he was never abducted as your co-applicants suggest and yourself. What is your comment?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I think this person is possibly confused with some of these dates, perhaps he was missing for a year or had gone away for a year, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, it could be just a few months, about six months.

MR ROBERTSHAW: About six months?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, about six months, not a long time. But what I'm putting, or rather, saying you should comment on is that for that six months he was away from Lesotho and came back ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm not saying it's correct, but if we go according to this statement, then it would mean that during December he was not fetched. That's what it would mean, the reading.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct Chairperson, that's what the reading is, Chairperson. I refute that, Chairperson. In December 1987, that's when he was abducted. Perhaps this person's mixed up with his dates.

CHAIRPERSON: No, if you have regard to page 54, paragraph 11, he now gives us some little certainty because he says:

That's the some little certainty about dates now.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, this is quite possible, but it was definitely not to us. I know that this man was being sought after by the Transkeian people because he had attacked and killed policemen at the police station in Umtata, so he could have been handed over to the Transkeian police for all I know, on that date.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, read again, it's the South African Police. Did you know during that time we had these little sister countries which we created and Transkei wouldn't have South African Police?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you hear also that his companion, Fana, was killed in that shoot-out?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Is that Radebe? Is Fana Radebe?

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Are you talking about the Transkeian ...

CHAIRPERSON: Shoot-out.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Possibly ja, I can't remember the details completely Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you remember just that KK was involved in this shoot-out?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I know that. I think his Commander was a Basil Kenyon or Dumisani Mafa, if I'm correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think Mr Lax has the last question to ask, I'll allow him to.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, it's just the one that arises out of your question and the one I wanted to ask.

You must have heard about the incident where Radebe was shot in the hospital?

MR ROBERTSHAW: He wasn't - you're thinking of Mphilo?

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, Mphilo.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Mphilo, yes. I heard about that incident, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you will have read that for example, Jantjie was implicated in that by, I think it was Kadi if I remember right?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Is it in the statements here?

MR LAX: It's in Kadi's statement, but ...(intervention)

MR ROBERTSHAW: I can't recall that.

MR LAX: The implication is that he was assassinated, he was shot through the window while he was in the hospital bed.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's what apparently happened, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now in all - you don't have to go and read it, you can take my word for it, that's what it says. You no doubt would have heard that?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That Mphilo had been shot?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Yes, we heard that.

MR LAX: Sure. And you would no doubt have surmised that it was someone in the Security Forces that had done it, South African Security Forces.

MR ROBERTSHAW: There's some sort of doubt to this, apparently the person that was - the bed had been changed around, they'd come back from some operation and where Mphilo should have been put he wasn't put and where this person that should have been put where Mphilo was originally, there's some discrepancy there. So I won't say for sure it was the Security Forces. In other words, the beds were changed around by the nurses bringing the people back from operations.

MR LAX: Are you saying Mphilo didn't die?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I'm saying he did die.

CHAIRPERSON: He says when he was returned he was not at the place where he was supposed to be.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's the story that I had, yes.

MR LAX: And surely Mphilo would have been a target?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Probably he was a target.

MR LAX: I mean of the South African Security Forces.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Surely he was, he was an MK cadre.

MR LAX: Well then why does it surprise you that he was assassinated?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It doesn't surprise me that he was assassinated, I've never said it surprised me that he was assassinated.

MR LAX: Now as I suggested to ...(intervention)

MR ROBERTSHAW: Excuse me, there's a difference between assassination and murder. Or is there a difference?

MR LAX: Well if you ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: Assassination is usually with political figures and a normal person is ... but if he was just murdered without a political motivation, would that be assassination? I'm just asking. It doesn't surprise me that he died - let me put it that way.

MR LAX: Yes. Well he was an MK operative.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, yes.

MR LAX: And if he'd been killed by South African Forces, it would have been an assassination.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, if he was.

MR LAX: And you're saying there's some doubt about that because the beds were switched or something?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Did you find that out by some subsequent enquiries and investigation?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I think that's what was reported to us by the Lesotho authorities or the Lesotho police, as far as I can recall.

MR LAX: That could just as - look, this is totally irrelevant, I'm not going to waste any more time on it.

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't have allowed you.

MR LAX: My real focus was twofold, the first was that as Commander of that section, did you come across any intelligence from whatever source, that any of these four people were ever seen in Lesotho again, after the time that they left the Ladybrand farm?

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: If they were the subject of an ANC disciplinary inquiry of some description, you had spies in Maseru, highly placed ones, we've heard that, you don't have to identify who they were, you had spies in Lusaka ...

MR ROBERTSHAW: I didn't have spies in Lusaka, Chairperson.

MR LAX: When I say you I mean the South African Police had spies in Lusaka.

CHAIRPERSON: The intelligence community had spies. I'll tell you, we have heard most of these things and in the last one where Mr Visser was present, is that with the Botswana Raid they actually had a spy who attended the conference in Kabwe. So the intelligence community did their job.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You can rest assured we've heard this and your legal representatives were present when we even heard about this one.

MR LAX: The point I'm making though is, through your network of intelligence sources you would definitely have heard about them arriving in Zambia, for example.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I can't comment on that, I didn't have any access to any sources or informers in Lusaka. As I've stated before, I don't even know if they arrived in Lusaka with their right passports and their right identity documents. I don't know what the circumstances are there, I can't argue with that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, it wouldn't be entirely correct that when they left Ladybrand, these people were not seen again. It wouldn't be entirely correct, because Jantjie says he and Jagga met Betty Boom in Maseru. So it wouldn't be entirely correct. It's only after they were told telephonically by Betty Boom that they were required in Lusaka, that they didn't see them anymore.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chair.

Did you not ever get reports that certain people were moved or deported to certain places and that they'd arrived there? Surely that was common place in your files.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We received such reports on the movement of people, but we must also remember that the reports, such reports concerning suspects from the different areas were only sent to those areas, they weren't disseminated right throughout to every Security Branch office there was. Perhaps they could have been sent to our Head Office and they didn't inform us, that could have happened.

MR LAX: Mr Robertshaw, if you were monitoring Lesotho and person X gets deported from Lesotho to Zambia, the report would come back to you that they'd arrived in Zambia.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson, but that is not what you asked.

MR LAX: That's exactly what I'm asking.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well then I misinterpreted your question.

MR LAX: That's exactly what I'm asking you. I'm saying, if these - if we're going to work on the assumption that these four people went back to Lusaka, where something happened to them, which is one of the probabilities and certainly one that the applicants are suggesting, your intelligence sources in Lusaka would have known about that and reported that back to you, because they were profile people in your files.

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, if they used their proper names, if they used the names and they knew that they were coming from that area.

MR LAX: You would have had them under the MK names, you would have had them under every alternative name possible.

MR ROBERTSHAW: I don't know if we would have had.

MR LAX: Well, if your men had debriefed them properly you would have had every possible name they might have used.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Possibly.

MR LAX: And you said they were good at their jobs?

MR ROBERTSHAW: They were good at their jobs.

MR LAX: And similarly, if something that happened to them in Maseru, it's an unusual event for disciplinary action to take place in Maseru, but assuming it had, through your sources you would have heard about it.

MR ROBERTSHAW: We would have heard about it, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you never did.

MR ROBERTSHAW: And we never did, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now the last question and it really is the last question. Why was it necessary for them to be guarded? You were the Commander, why did they have to be guarded?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, the word guarded is - I'm not, they were looked after more than guarded, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well that's not what Thulo describes, with the greatest of respect, Sir, he describes them being akin to prisoners. In fact he went further, he said he would have expected captives to be treated like that.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well perhaps he saw it like that, it wasn't a question of guarding them as such.

MR LAX: Well he certainly thought he was guarding them.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Perhaps he thought so.

MR LAX: The point is, why was it necessary to guard people who were co-operating with you so stringently? Even if it was just taking care of them, why was it so necessary to people who were co-operating with you?

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, the place that they were being kept in the first place, it was being used as a safehouse. Secondly, it was in a farming area and we had no control of who was going to come up to the house and who would not come up to the house. We didn't want them to go outside, they'd later on perhaps be able to identify the house, which is not a sound thing. There's lot of aspects that come into play here. They weren't being guarded as if they were prisoners.

MR LAX: Well if you had that concern, why didn't you just blindfold them on the way into the house?

MR ROBERTSHAW: My recollection is that they were.

MR LAX: Well no-one said that.

MR ROBERTSHAW: No, I don't think anybody was asked, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well it's not something you need to ask them, it's quite an important factor.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Well that is my recollection, they were. And that is standard procedure with all of us, whenever you go to a safehouse or a safe premises, the people are blindfolded and they don't see where they're going.

CHAIRPERSON: With KK, what we know is that they used his belt to tie his hands. Do you recall hearing such evidence?

MR ROBERTSHAW: That's what I heard, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So I mean there's been no testimony whatsoever from any of the other applicants that there was any blindfold used on anybody.

MR ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I don't think the people were asked if it was such. I can't comment on the evidence they gave.

MR LAX: Look that's a matter for argument anyway, but you'd certainly concede it's quiet a relevant piece of information?

MR ROBERTSHAW: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: You'd certainly concede it's a relevant piece of information?

MR ROBERTSHAW: It's a relevant piece of information, yes Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax. Mr Visser, any questions arising from what the Panel asked?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Malindi, anything?

MR MALINDI: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malindi. Mr Mapoma, anything arising from what the Panel asked?

MR MAPOMA: None Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Robertshaw, this brings us to the end of your testimony and you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm concerned about Mr Visser's voice, it's running away, I wouldn't say it's hoarse, and it would be an appropriate time to take the day's adjournment and reconvene tomorrow at nine. And I would request counsel to see me in chambers after this adjournment.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, as it pleases you, but if I had torture myself I just, lest I forget, have to tell you I can either do it this afternoon or tomorrow, I'll do it tomorrow with your leave, to tell you that we've made certain attempts to obtain information in regard to Mr Ngono, and these attempts are still ongoing and they're attempts in Lesotho. What we're trying to locate is the docket or the inquest file relating to Radebe and/or to this situation. We have not been successful. I will tell you tomorrow what the endeavours are that we made.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that, Mr Visser. We adjourn until tomorrow at 9a.m.