CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. At the conclusion of the proceedings yesterday Mr Wills who is representing Mr Mbambo, indicated that he has just a few more points to raise while Mr Mbambo is giving his evidence in chief.

Mr Wills, are you ready to proceed?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, I remind you that you are still under your former oath.

MR MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: (Cont) Mr Mbambo, there are just two areas that I want to cover with you this morning, the first concerns your stay in Westville Prison. Were you approached by any persons representing any political party to have to have anything to do with your amnesty application?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee and the members of the public what that was about?

MR MBAMBO: They had come to advise us not to make applications to appear before this Commission, the Truth Commission.

MR WILLS: Who are they?

MR MBAMBO: Captain Shalengwa who works for the Durban office of the IFP, Mr Nicky Britz who works at the Durban offices of the IFP and he's in charge of the IFP Dutch Project and Miss Lolita Sing who is a member of Parliament in the National Government as well the Minister of Correctional Services, Minister Sepong Umzumela.

MR WILLS: Now you've heard - I don't think we need to get into detail about this, you've heard the evidence of Mr Mkhize concerning the meeting that you had with the Minister of Correctional Service, Mr Mtetwa - sorry, Mr Umzumela, when you were taken out of the prison and I think the evidence was to the effect that you had a meeting in some offices which were outside of the prison, is that correct? By that, I mean outside of medium B but within the confines of Westville Prison complex, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, this is correct.

MR WILLS: And do you confirm the statements made by Mr Mkhize in regard to the contents of that meeting?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now just briefly, why do you think those persons didn't want you to apply for amnesty?

MR MBAMBO: It was because they did not want the truth to be revealed because it was well-known that if we made these applications the prerequisite for such applications would be a full disclosure of the activities that we were involved in thus we would have been forced to expose the truth and by so doing implicate all IFP Ministers and others who are in Parliament on behalf of the IFP, as well as other respected Nkosis and chiefs and in that way the IFP's image would be damaged. I think it was to protect the IFP's image.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. The last area I want to cover briefly Mr Mbambo is your current political allegiance. Are you a member of any political party at this point in time?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee what that is?

MR MBAMBO: It is the Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR WILLS: Now you mentioned yesterday that you were involved in a process within the prison which as I understood, the purpose of this process was to reconcile various prisoners serving sentences from various political parties in Westville Prison, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: And obviously the two main parties there being the ANC and the IFP?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: And I think your evidence yesterday was that you are the Chairperson of this Committee, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, which political party are you mandated by in respect of your endeavours in this Committee?

MR MBAMBO: I was elected by the IFP to represent it in the ...[indistinct] this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbambo, when you say you were elected by the IFP, are you saying you were elected by the IFP members who were in prison or was it beyond the walls of the prison from this election came?

MR MBAMBO: I was elected by IFP prisoners at Westville Prison and there were representatives from the IFP offices as well.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.

Mr Stewart, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson, yes I do.

Mr Mbambo, it has been suggested in the press and also in the Human Rights Violations Committee Hearings in August, that Mr Dalaxolo Luthuli was acting without any instructions or authority from the IFP and that he was commanding some group of hit men for his own purposes and in his own fashion, is that to your knowledge true?

MR MBAMBO: That is blue lies.

MR STEWART: How do you know that it's lies?

MR MBAMBO: I know because Maglanduna was always in the present in the hierarchy that we have spoken about before this Commission, people such as Prince Gideon Zulu, M Z Khumalo Captain Langene and other amakosi. He would be present when they gave us instructions and if there was a task that we hadn't performed well, the person who will be reprimanded will be Maglanduna and he in turn would reprimand us so it is not true that Maglanduna used us for his own purposes.

MR STEWART: And who would reprimand him?

MR MBAMBO: I remember Prince Gideon Zulu, in the last meeting that we had at his house where he reprimanded us for not killing Nazi Gumedesuna. He did this to Maglanduna and Maglanduna reprimanded us in turn and that is when we expressed the opinion that we did not have a vehicle at our disposal to carry out this operation. That is why the vehicle from the Chief Minister's Department was given to us.

MR STEWART: And did you know yourself at that time that Maglanduna has been designated the Political Commissar of the Caprivi trainees?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I did.

ADV MOTATA: If you just for a moment Mr Stewart.

Mr Mbambo, you say Prince Gideon Zulu would reprimand you through Maglanduna, that is Dalaxolo Luthuli, where the instructions or the reprimand as you put it, to Dalaxolo Luthuli made in your presence, that he should reprimand you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Stewart.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Committee Member.

Is it true Mr Mbambo that throughout all of this time from before your first arrest and subsequent to your arrest and your various trials and right up until today, that Mr Luthuli has remained loyal to you and to your colleagues?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that he stood by all of you and supported you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that he's also assisted and advised you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that he's held in high regard by you and your colleagues?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: Is it also true that Mr Luthuli encouraged you at the time after your arrest and when it became apparent that you were not getting legal support and so on, that he encouraged you to tell the whole story and that this was now the new South Africa and that a new beginning must be made?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, he said he did not see a reason to continue with the fighting.

MR STEWART: And also that he encouraged you to tell the whole story?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: Now, Mr Mbambo, I want to deal briefly with this question of random attacks in so-called ANC areas, and it's been said by Mr Luthuli and Mr Mkhize what the objectives were and indeed you've covered that to a certain extent but I want to confirm some of what I understand the others have said.

Is it true that the political objective in such attacks was to demonstrate the strength and power of the IFP?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it is true.

MR STEWART: And is it true that the purpose of such attacks was also to terrorise the people in those areas?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And by so doing to discourage the people in those areas from supporting the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: Because they would then know if they supported the ANC they would be placing themselves at risk and subject to attack?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that this strategy would justify in your view, that sometimes non-alliant people would be killed or injured in the process?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And is it also true that at the same time that you had that strategy which I've spoken of, of these random attacks, you also had the targeted strategy, of targeting particular individuals who you regarded as most dangerous, isolating them out and eliminating them through assassination?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And these two strategies existed at the same time, hand in hand?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Mbambo, to your knowledge is it true that the amnesty applications of yourself and Mr Mkhize and Mr Hlongwane on the one hand were prepared in isolation and without contact with Mr Luthuli and Mr Dlamini and Mr Khumalo and their legal representatives on the other hand?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that there was no liaising between the two and preparing the affidavits together?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct, there was no contact.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Mbambo, in your experience working in the IFP over these years, is it right to say that there was both simultaneously a public face and a private face to your organisation?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is the truth, that's what we're exposing here today.

MR STEWART: And that the public face was a spousing or propagating peaceful and non-violent political means and the private face was propagating violent and ruthless extermination of political opponents?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And lastly Mr Mbambo, I want to deal with the role of Zweli Dlamini in the eSikhawini area. His application and his evidence in due course will show that he'd been involved elsewhere and then he came to eSikhawini and he joined the group which you also became part of. Is it correct that in that group he did not play a leadership role?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is the truth.

MR STEWART: And that he didn't play a role whereby he initiated actions or operations?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that generally speaking he was the sort of person who did what he was told to do?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And in fact that he was often not even part of the strategising meetings, he was very often guarding those meetings while the decisions were being taken?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Mbambo, no more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.

Mr Mbambo, I noticed that you have your statement in front of you but you have related these incidents with a very scant reference to that affidavit and you have mentioned quite a number of names without mixing them up and that to me creates an impression that the stories that you are telling come out of you voluntarily and you know them ...[indistinct] too well, is that a fair impression?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: For the benefit of the public, you have mentioned that you had various code names for your group and for your activities and for your equipment, if you can tell the members of the public the code name you used for your hit squad,

can you do that?

MR MBAMBO: We were called Bafana Bafana or Bafana Bumshlaba or Easy Bogey.

MR NGUBANE: And what name did you assign to your equipment, the explosives, firearms and ammunition?

MR MBAMBO: Explosives, that is hand grenades we called Ama Gabati or Large Stones, guns we used to call Ingoge, such guns as pistols and revolvers, the AK47 rifle was called Igeja.

MR NGUBANE: Now you have mentioned a certain gentleman by the name of Sepiwe Umvuyani, is it correct that that man was your close friend, you were almost inseparable with him?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Is it fair to describe that gentleman as the most dangerous hit squad policeman in the Province of KwaZulu Natal?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What relationship did he enjoy with Chief Gaja Buthelezi?

MR MBAMBO: He was regarded as a son by the Chief Minister and he trusted him wholeheartedly. If you were a KwaZulu policeman you would not just go and meet the Minister of Police if you were a Constable as Sepiwe was, there are various channels that you are supposed to use. Even these channels go up to the General's position, you cannot go beyond that to the Minister but Sepiwe Vuyani used to wear leather shorts and wear a leather vest as well as a cap and he would go directly to Parliament and meet the Chief Minister without liaising with any other person.

MR NGUBANE: And when he was, that is Vuyani, when he was transferred from the South African Police to join the KwaZulu Police, he was an ordinary Constable, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did he have a motor vehicle at that stage?

MR MBAMBO: No, he did not.

MR NGUBANE: And immediately after joining the KwaZulu Police, can you describe his lifestyle, the type of motor vehicles that he had and so on and so on?

MR MBAMBO: His first car was a Mazda 323, a GI, those cars were new at the time. His second car was a red Golf GTI 16 Valve. His third car was a 200E Mercedes Benz, the latest model for that year. His fourth car was a BMW M5, the latest model for that year. His fifth car was a BMW 325IS which was also the latest model for that year. His sixth car was a Caravelle, a 2.1I, the latest model for that year and his seventh car was a Mercedes 2 Door, 380SEC. He also had a flat in St Andrews Street, Durban. He had a house for R750 000 at Umhlanga Rocks. He also had car phones in all of his cars.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, did he have a fleet of cars or those seven cars, were they successively owned? Did he get rid of one and get another one or did he have them as a fleet?

MR MBAMBO: He would not have less than three cars at one time.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

As a close friend of his, did he tell you where he got the money to buy all these assets?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, he did tell me and I also observed some of the other things.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell the Committee what you saw and what he told you about the acquisition of these assets?

MR MBAMBO: He received money from the IFP, from the Chief Minister, Doctor M G Buthelezi. Other amounts of money he used to receive from Mr Gogo who was the owner of the Executive Hotel in Umlazi.

Mr Sabela, a member of the KwaZulu Parliament who was also an IFP leader at Umlazi had initiated contacts between Sepiwe Vuyani and Mr Gogo so that Sepiwe would protect Mr Gogo from ANC members and Kama Qota where Mr Gogo had businesses. Sepiwe did this job as a member of the IFP, that is protecting Mr Gogo.

I have mentioned a meeting that Sepiwe had with Doctor M G Buthelezi in Ulundi. I also explained in my statements that on returning he had a large amount of cash that he had on him which he had been given by M G Buthelezi.

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Ngubane.

Mr Mbambo, when you alleged that the Chief Minister gave Mr Vuyani some money, in what capacity did the Chief Minister give Mr - no, in what capacity did Mr Vuyani receive monies from the Chief Minister, do you know?

MR MBAMBO: I would not really know, I will leave it to this Committee to conclude about that but Sepiwe used to receive money. Firstly, if you are a policeman you do not receive your salary directly from the Minister of Police and you don't earn your salary in cash so I do not know why he gave him the money. I did not ask or enquire because I understood that he was given the money because of his activities for the IFP. I did not concern myself to ask why he received so much money.

ADV MOTATA: Before you proceed Mr Ngubane,

Mr Mbambo, you told us that this was your best friend actually and as Mr Ngubane has put it to you or asked you rather, you said you were inseparable at some stage, did I understand you correctly?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Now as your best friend and you accompany him to Ulundi and he comes with such large amounts of cash, didn't you ask: "Friend for what purposes were you given these monies by the Chief Minister, Doctor Buthelezi"?

MR MBAMBO: I did not ask him because what he said was that he had money.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.

When you Mr Mbambo, you thought that he had received this money because of his work in the IFP, do you agree with me that Mr Vuyani was not the organiser in the IFP but he was actually the hit man?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interpose again Mr Ngubane?

When Mr Vuyani went to Ulundi with you - I can't remember the period, I think it was pre '91 when you both went to Ulundi and he came with this stack of money that he had received from the Chief Minister, was he already a hit man to your knowledge for the IFP?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, he already was.

MR NGUBANE: I'll move to another point now Mr Mbambo. You say that you were involved amongst things in the coverup where criminal acts had been committed by the members of the hit squad, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that you were largely responsible for transporting corpses of ANC people that had been killed to Zwelezane in order for post-mortem examinations to be conducted?

MR MBAMBO: The company AVBOB will fetch these corpses from the police station and I would be present when the post-mortem was conducted.

MR NGUBANE: And did you know Doctor ...[indistinct].

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I knew him well.

MR NGUBANE: And he conducted most of the post-mortems on the ANC people at Zwelezane, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, he conducted post-mortems on all those that fell within the KwaZulu jurisdiction.

MR NGUBANE: At that stage did you participate in the coverup when the post-mortem examination was conducted?

MR MBAMBO: No, I haven't been.

MR NGUBANE: So you wouldn't know about the allegation that for example, Mr Daliwe, there was no proper post-mortem examination done? You wouldn't have any comments on that?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know if anyone of your hit squad helped in any manner in the commission or the irregularities when the post-mortem examinations were conducted?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't know of anyone.

MR NGUBANE: Now, do you recall the ANC rally that was in 1991 at eSikhawini, November 1991?

MR MBAMBO: I hadn't arrived at eSikhawini by that time.

MR NGUBANE: Now this rally which you talked about yesterday which was in August 1992 where Prince Gideon Zulu was present, as far as you were aware was it the first rally of the IFP at eSikhawini?

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, if I can intervene. I think that rally was February and not August '92.

MR NGUBANE: That is correct. Oh sorry, I'm quoting another incident, thank you very much.

That rally where Gideon was present in February 1992, was it the first rally of the IFP as far as you are aware?

MR MBAMBO: It was the first rally that I attended of that magnitude.

MR NGUBANE: I see, but there were many rallies that taken place prior to that big rally?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did you learn that after each and every IFP rally that was held at eSikhawini, people belonging to the ANC were attacked?

MR MBAMBO: Before and after.

MR NGUBANE: So because of the hugeness of the rally in February 1992, there was going to be huge trouble, there was going to huge attack on the ANC people?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: You have testified that that rally was interrupted by the ANC person who shot at the Inkatha members who were at the rally, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Had that person not fired a shot at the Inkatha rally, do you think that the damage that would have been caused to the ANC people would be far larger than what occurred after the rally?

MR MBAMBO: The rally was actually intended to wipe out the entire ANC at eSikhawini, from Emakandeleni to Eshonobeli hostel.

MR NGUBANE: So that shot that was fired at the rally interrupted the plans and the objectives of the IFP rally, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: You have testified about this rally that Prince Gideon Zulu was carrying a rifle, a 303, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And there were many people who were gathered there, as far as you were aware did these people emanate from a single area or were they brought from various areas?

MR MBAMBO: They came from different areas in KwaZulu Natal and some came from Johannesburg.

MR NGUBANE: Were most of them armed?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, most of them were armed.

MR NGUBANE: If someone were to suggest that that rally was a mere peaceful rally, what would be your comment?

MR MBAMBO: I would say that person is telling a lie.

MR NGUBANE: Other than the violent objective of that rally, as far as you were aware was there anything else that was going to be discussed in that rally except to embark on violence?

MR MBAMBO: No, what I knew was that the ANC was going to be attacked and forced out and after that people gather at the J2 Stadium and Prince Gideon Zulu would address the people.

MR NGUBANE: Oh, so his address to the rally would have been after the attack had taken place?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were there any specific people targeted or was it just a random attack that was going to be undertaken?

MR MBAMBO: ANC leaders were known at eSikhawini and therefore they were going to be killed one after another, Willis Nkunu for example but it was known that because they were going to start from Emakandeleni and proceed to Eshobeli Hostel and proceed to J1 they would have completed everything when they got there. Willis Nkunu was attacked but fortunately he was no longer there.

MR NGUBANE: I know it's an incident that took place some time ago and there were quite a number of people involved in the attack of Mr Willis Nkunu's house but as far as you are aware were there any specific people that were directed specifically to attack the house of Mr Willis Nkunu?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, there were people.

MR NGUBANE: Can you still recall them and can you tell us who they are?

MR MBAMBO: It was Nglagane Mpumatengua, Lucky Mbuaze, Bernard Mlambo, Constable Mkwanazi, those are the ones that I can still remember.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that those are the people that actually and finally participated in the destruction of Mr Nkunu's house?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now from what you have said, correct me if I'm wrong, I gather that the mode of operation was that certain people were going to attack certain targeted houses - and the people whom I shall refer to as the ordinary people in the rally, were going to attack at random and destroy all the houses, was that mode of operation?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now speaking about rallies, you mentioned extensively and gave evidence on the ANC rally that was on the 22nd of August 1992 where Chris Hani and Cyril Ramaphosa were present, you gave us some extensive evidence on that, do you remember?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

MR NGUBANE: Did you know a gentleman by the name of Syela Stele?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I know him very well.

MR NGUBANE: Was he present during the destruction and attack on the ANC people prior to the rally and after the rally?

MR MBAMBO: He was such a coward, he was only present spiritually.

MR NGUBANE: What was Syela Stele's status, was he a member of the IFP, was he a member of the KwaZulu Police or was he a member of the hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: He was not a member of the hit squad but he knew about the hit squad and we would seek and discuss several things with him. He was a police reservist at the KwaZulu Police and he was also Chairman of the IFP Youth at eSikhawini and he was very close to Mrs Mbuaze and Bebe Biela and Brigadier Umzumela because Brigadier Umzumela was his induna.

MR NGUBANE: Syela Stele participate in the planning of any attacks by the hit squad members?

MR MBAMBO: No, he only came now and then complaining to Mrs Mbuaze and ourselves that his place Port Dunford is not taken care of because the ANC is attacking them frequently and that is why he brought these boys so that I could train them and the boys went back to Port Dunford to fight.

MR NGUBANE: Now turning to Daliwe's matter once again, you mentioned that 7.65 pistol was used in shooting him and that pistol had been issued to Mrs Mbuaze, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: If you say it was issued to Mrs Mbuaze, are you suggesting that it was a licensed firearm or it was one of those firearms that were issued without the holder having a valid license thereof?

MR MBAMBO: It was issued by the KwaZulu Police and it was signed for at Ulundi.

MR NGUBANE: Now as far as I understand the position, if a person was given a firearm license at that time, he had to apply to the Commissioner in Pretoria, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now are you suggesting that there was this irregular procedure in the KwaZulu Police where certain people were issued with firearms by the KwaZulu Police in Ulundi, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, many leaders of the IFP were issued with guns. Chiefs and Indunas were given G3 rifles and shotguns.

MR NGUBANE: Did that occur according to your knowledge - you might not know it or you may know it, did that occur as a result of a sanction by the Minister of the KwaZulu Police at that time?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And who was the Minister of the KwaZulu Police at that time?

MR MBAMBO: Doctor M G Buthelezi.

MR NGUBANE: I see. If the Committee can just bear with me.

Let's come to the incident of Nagtal Nxumalo, there is some clarification we would like to have there. Do you know anything about Vusi Myene?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ngubane, what was that name again?

MR NGUBANE: The incident is the murder of Nagtal Nxumalo and the person is Vusi Myene.

Did he have any role to play in the murder of Mr Nagtal Nxumalo?

MR MBAMBO: No, not at all.

MR NGUBANE: Did he at any stage participate in the activities of the hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: Not at all.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much. You mentioned about an attack on Gabela who resided at J1716, did you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you get into that matter in greater detail -just to guide you, how it was planned, with whom it was planned, who participated, how it was covered up if it was ever covered up?

MR MBAMBO: Gabela's house was attacked by the IFP Youth, Nglagane Mpumatengua, Lucky Mbuaze, Bernard Mlambo, Siabonga Mbuaze and Constable Mkwanazi. They had been instructed by Mr Mbuaze with his wife, Mrs Mbuaze. We did not know about that imminent attack and we did not even know a thing about the Gabela family. The Mbuazes and Gabelas were neighbours.

I also know that at the time when these boys attacked the Gabela household Mr Mbuaze was wearing a uniform, the KwaZulu Police uniform and he was moving up and down the street as the attack was being carried out.

I learnt about this the following day when Mr Mbuaze and the boys came bringing the firearms back to me so that I could clean them because two of them, those were the G3's that came from the eSikhawini Police Station, they requested that I try and clean the guns so that in the event of the guns being sent to Pretoria for forensic tests, the forensic laboratory should fail to associate these guns with the Gabela incident. They then explained to me everything that happened the previous day and they also gave me the reason for the attack.

MR NGUBANE: I see. What was the reason for the attack?

MR MBAMBO: There is a hostel that is very close to J2, it is closer to the Gabela household and separated by a main road. I referred to this hostel yesterday as the Railway Hostel and that is the ANC ...[end of tape]

...[inaudible] who had a boyfriend who resided in the Railway Hostel. She was seen frequenting the hostel and they concluded that the girl was also a comrade and apparently there was also a quarrel between Mrs Mbuaze and the parents to the girl over the very same issue of the girl rubbing shoulders with ANC members. It looks like the girls parents were not prepared to tell the girl to stop frequenting the railway hostel. That is the reason I know for the attack.

MR NGUBANE: Now on a point of clarification, did you say that Mr or did you say Mrs Mbuaze had a quarrel with the parents of the Gabela family?

MR MBAMBO: Mrs Mbuaze.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. And you said that during the attack Mr Mbuaze was wearing a KwaZulu Police uniform?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Was he a policeman, Mr Mbuaze?

MR MBAMBO: No, he was not, he was a police reservist.

MR NGUBANE: Was it the habit of the KwaZulu Police officers to make a police reservist wear a police uniform or was it a strategy of the hit squad people and those other people who were not the hit squad members but who were attacking ANC to clad the attackers in the KwaZulu Police uniform?

MR MBAMBO: He had the police uniform on that night to cover the boys during the attack but his police reservist position was necessarily the IFP strategy at eSikhawini because all the councillors who were IFP members, leaders of the IFP at eSikhawini had the opportunity to become police reservists.

MR NGUBANE: Yesterday you testified about the incident where Mlege was killed and one, I think it's Vilane, was injured, can you sketch to us the background leading to the killing of Mr Mlege?

MR MBAMBO: I would not be in the position to explain to this Commission the background to the killing of Mr Mlege because I only learnt about this whole thing after he was killed and that was at the time when we were discussing that and things that transpired after Mlege was killed.

MR NGUBANE: When you discussed about his murder, were you furnished with reasons why he was killed, except that he was ANC?

MR MBAMBO: No other reason was furnished except that he was an ANC member.

MR NGUBANE: Do you recall the incident when the Gumede family at Gobandlovo was attacked on the 11th of September 1992?

MR MBAMBO: I still remember there was a house that was attacked Gobandlovo but I have no idea as to the surname and people died, about three or four of them or even more than that.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, in fact I understand that there were six people that were killed there. Did you participate in that incident?

MR MBAMBO: No, I did not but I know the people who were present.

MR NGUBANE: Can you assist us with their names?

MR MBAMBO: Nglagane Mpumatengua is one of them, Lucky Mbuaze, Bernard Mlambo, Constable Mkwanazi and a certain police who came from the reaction unit of eSikhawini, he ended up committing suicide but I have forgotten his surname. I don't know whether I can request my co-applicants to assist me, if that is permissable.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it's really necessary because what he's giving is also hearsay evidence and I don't think it would be advisable to consult with fellow applicants on a question of hearsay.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Do you know why that family was attacked?

MR MBAMBO: They were attacked simply for the reason that they were ANC members.

MR NGUBANE: And the people that attacked them, were they all members of the KwaZulu Police?

MR MBAMBO: They were members of the hit squad and the other one whom I said committed suicide was a Caprivian as well and they did this following the instructions of the leader of the IFP at Gobandlovo, a leader who had a Spurs shop at H2 eSikhawini at the Umzumeli garage complex.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngubane, where is the Gobandlovo that the applicant is referring to? Is it in the surroundings of eSikhawini?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Now the other incident which I asked Mr Mkhize about was the incident of Dan Ndlovo and a Mabiga girl that were burnt at the hall, do you know about that incident?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I know about this incident, the ones who were burnt in a car.

MR NGUBANE: Yes. Tell the Committee and the members of the public what you know about that please.

MR MBAMBO: I would like to explain here because I would not explain anything further here because on arrival the car had already been burnt but I know that they were burnt by people that I know. That was the day prior to the march that we spoke about, the big march. Beasts had been slaughtered at S Hall in preparation for the rally the following day and local level leaders at eSikhawini's surroundings were also present at the Shlanganani Hall. There were also members of our hit squad present, people like Israel Hlongwane, Victor Buthelezi and others.

They were also the ones whom we referred to as Inkapi who came from Johannesburg being brought by Themba Xhosa. These are the people who killed these people together with Israel Hlongwane. Israel is the one who can explain this better to the Committee.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much. There is another incident which occurred at Mzuzwane's shebeen, do you know anything about that, where Mr Mathaba was injured, Leonard Mathaba?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't know.

MR NGUBANE: It could be one of those incidents where ANC areas were attacked but you didn't know who actually was injured in that incident, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Yesterday you mentioned a lady by the name of Vera Zulu who was injured during the operations, do you remember?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And do you recall that she was taken to the ICU?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that you at some stage visited the ICU?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: The Intensive Care Unit?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: What was your purpose of going there because she instructs me that she was terrified when she saw you there, can you just explain why you went there?

MR MBAMBO: It was not Vera Zulu who was at the hospital on that day, there were also others who were injured that very same night at eSikhawini. And because our members had attacked that area it transpired that some escaped, survived.

I came as a detective to get statements from these people and to try and establish as to whether they could identify the people who were launching the attack and if that's the case, if they knew the people who attacked them I would then do my job by saying: "The victims don't know the people who attacked them".

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. The last question is, you mentioned a certain driver by the name of Xele who was from the Chief Minister's Department who furnished you with a motor vehicle to undertake certain missions, did he explain to you how it came about that he had this official motor vehicle from the Chief Minister's Department to all these dirty works?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, he did explain.

MR NGUBANE: Can you explain to us what he told you?

MR MBAMBO: He explained to us that Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi heard our complaints and concerns that we didn't have vehicles to carry out the duty of attacking the ANC in large numbers and therefore Mr M Z Khumalo together with Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi made this car available from the Department of the Chief Minister so that this car be brought to us at eSikhawini to enable us to carry out the duties that we were expected to do. And they also gave him these two guns to add to what guns we already had. The car was a white kombi with a registration of ZG1- and other numbers thereafter. The ZG1 explains that this is a vehicle from the Department of The Chief Minister. And the two guns were AK47's and an Uzzi sub-machine gun.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry I said it was the last question I was asking, I just received a note here so can I just ask for a short adjournment because I don't understand the import of what is written here, so that I can instructions?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Ngubane. We'll take a short adjournment to enable Mr Ngubane to take some instructions.

R MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we can proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: I'm indebted to you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mbambo, do you of any policeman by the name of Makhunsu who was involved in the hit squad activities?

MR MBAMBO: Makhunsu?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that name again?

MR NGUBANE: Makhunsu: M-A-K-H-U-N-S-U.

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't.

MR NGUBANE: If you can recall, can you assist me, do you remember the incident on the 1st of May 1993 when the Mathaba family of Langeso was attacked?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't know of that incident.

MR NGUBANE: And you have never heard about it, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngubane, I'm sorry to be coming in at this time, I think we have allowed you some attitude to ask questions which do not impinge directly on the offences in respect of which amnesty is being sought by the applicant, so I am not with you with regard to the names that you have put forward to this witness, whether they have any relation whatsoever to do with the offences in respect of which they are seeking amnesty.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Member of the Committee, my understanding is that the applicants have applied for amnesty in respect specific incidents and in respect of other incidents about which they may be ...[indistinct] but which they might have forgotten and that is why I had to ask about these incidents.

MS KHAMPEPE: If that is the ambit of your question, I think you have the right to ask those questions.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much. May I just point out that in fact there are no more incidents I'm going to ask about except to put to you Mr Mbambo that I've been requested by Mrs Zulu, who is in a wheelchair in front of you, to advise you that she is one of the people that were injured when you attacked the Set me Free shebeen and there were a number of people that were attacked along the road after that incident, is that a correct account of what happened on that day?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And were you one of the people that stopped her as she was coming from the university, conversed with her and then shot her?

MR MBAMBO: I was not with the group that attacked, I was only given an instruction to give them weapons and how they should proceed.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR MBAMBO: I would like to pass words of apology to Miss Zulu even though I was not present at the scene, I am involved in your attack and your injury. I regret this and I sincerely apologise for causing or rather for being the cause of the situation that you are in today. I request you to find it in your heart to forgive me. I am very sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewit, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR HEWIT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, are you in a position to proceed or would you like us to take a tea adjournment now?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I wonder if I could intervene, I think it would be appropriate to take the tea adjournment at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit, I see it's ten to eleven and I agree with Mr Wills.

MR HEWIT: Yes, I have no difficulty with that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now take the tea adjournment and we'll resume again at twenty past eleven.

R MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit, are you ready to proceed?

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairman, before I do, during the tea adjournment my learned friend Mr Ngubane approached me and informed me that he'd been approached by family members of the victims, of further victims, and as a result of that approach he had further questions which he wished to put to the applicant. I have no objection if he finalises his questions before I proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewit. Mr Ngubane?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do apologise for the inconvenience that this is causing.

Mr Mbambo, do you recall that you testified about the attack on a house where a lady who was asleep was killed eSikhawini?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I remember.

MR NGUBANE: Did you get that information as a result of a report or did you personally participate in that attack?

MR MBAMBO: I was not involved in the attack but I saw it.

MR NGUBANE: Would you then be in a position to dispute the fact that in fact the person who was killed in that house was not a female but it was one, Sipho Khumalo?

MR MBAMBO: I would not object of refute this.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know about the attack at the Umzumela family in Langezu?

MR MBAMBO: No, I do not.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewit?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWIT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mbambo, you told us yesterday at some length that you were regarded as a hero by the IFP leadership and it's members for all the attacks you launched on the ANC and the UDF and the murders you committed, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: You also told us that you were constantly, after each operation, praised by and thanked by various people like Mrs Mbuaze, Brigadier Umzumela and various other high ranking people, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now a Sergeant earns more than a Constable, doesn't he?

MR MBAMBO: Please repeat the questions?

MR HEWIT: A Sergeant in the police earns more than a Constable?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And a Lieutenant earns more than a Sergeant?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: And a Major earns more than a Lieutenant?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And so we go on right to the top of the pile to someone like Brigadier Umzumela who earns a lot more than all those people?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now, you joined the police as a Constable, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: By the time you were arrested and convicted and sentenced to imprisonment you were still a Constable?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Did you ever ask these people who were so grateful for your activities, discuss with them the question of promotion to other higher ranks with more money?

MR MBAMBO: There would be discussions about it but not a ...[indistinct] that we were requesting it.

MR HEWIT: Didn't you want to advance, didn't you want some recognition for the hero status you say you had?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, we did.

MR HEWIT: Do I understand your last answer to be that you did deal with the question of promotion to higher ranks with more money with your superiors?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it happened during discussions but we did not meet specifically to discuss promotions.

MR HEWIT: Well, did you ask Captain Langene if you were ever going to be promoted for the good work you were doing?

MR MBAMBO: I never asked Captain Langene.

MR HEWIT: Did you ever ask Brigadier Umzumela, he's pretty high ranking, did you ever ask him about promotion to higher ranks for the good works you were performing?

MR MBAMBO: I've never requested but he sometimes suggested it.

MR HEWIT: So why weren't you promoted?

MR MBAMBO: I have no idea.

MR HEWIT: Well, did he ask you to take a promotion to higher ranks, Brigadier Umzumela?

MR MBAMBO: During our conversation when he was recommending us on our activities, Brigadier Umzumela would say we shouldn't be concerned because shortly we would be becoming Warrant Officers. It was seen that we were going to just become Warrant Officers.

MR HEWIT: When did you join the police?

MR MBAMBO: In 1990.

MR HEWIT: And when were you arrested and imprisoned?

MR MBAMBO: In July 1993.

MR HEWIT: And was July '93 the last time you ever performed any duties as a policeman?

MR MBAMBO: I stopped in April 1993.

MR HEWIT: And during that entire time you'd never received a single formal acknowledgement of the good work you've done, through a promotion or though it was suggested?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Did the same apply to Brian Mkhize?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is true.

MR HEWIT: He started as a Constable?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: And he ended his career as a Constable?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Were you ever present when the question of his promotion was ever discussed?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is true.

MR HEWIT: Do you know why he also was never promoted?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: What's the reason for that?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know of the reason.

MR HEWIT: Did you never discuss the fact that your work was not being tangible acknowledged with promotions and more money?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Were you not interested in promotions?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I did want to be promoted.

MR HEWIT: But you can't yet tell us why you weren't?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Did you receive sums of money like this person you mentioned, Umvuyana?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Over and above your salary?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: How much money did you receive over and above your salary?

MR MBAMBO: Bebeyela the Mayor would sometimes sign a cash cheque for R1 000. Mrs Mbuaze if I had requested money from her she would ask how much I needed, maybe I would be needing R100 at that time and she would give me the money.

MR HEWIT: Was this money that you just received for expenses in connection with various operations or was it in effect an extra salary or extra income you received for doing such good work?

MR MBAMBO: It was not a salary. I would request the money if I needed it.

MR HEWIT: For expenses incurred for the operations?

MR MBAMBO: No, for my personal needs.

MR HEWIT: Well now, approximately how much do you say you received over and above your salary from the time you joined this hit squad until you were arrested?

MR MBAMBO: I would not be able to specify the amount because I received this money at various points in time and from various people. The last amount we received, myself together with Xene from Chief Mataba. Another amount that we received when we had already been arrested was from Prince Gideon Zulu, from the Mtuzini Court and he asked Mr Njose to give us this money, the amount was R200 for each of us.

MR HEWIT: So, are you able to give us any idea at all, over this period of time from 1990 to 1993, how much plus or minus you received extra over and above your salary?

MR MBAMBO: I would say ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Hewit, you're talking about Mr Mbambo personally, the you is singular?

MR HEWIT: I'm only referring to the money that you received.

MR MBAMBO: I would say plus minus R5 000 because there was R2 000 that I received M R Mkhize, he was in fact shutting me up, he didn't want me to talk about it because we had realised or discovered that the guns that had been brought to him by Citi Mtetwa were supposed to be distributed within the police and he was not supposed to sell those guns but he did so. He gave me this amount of R2 000 so that I would not report him.

MR HEWIT: And are you talking about a person who was a member of the hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So it came to your knowledge that a member of the hit squad was in fact stealing money that was earmarked for other purposes?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Did any other crimes like this, theft of trust money in effect, come to your attention amongst members of this hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Did all members of the hit squad receive sums of money at various points of time from various different people for the jobs they did?

MR MBAMBO: They would receive money but not for the activities that they carried out.

MR HEWIT: What would they receive money for then?

MR MBAMBO: In case of their personal needs like furniture instalments and such other things.

MR HEWIT: In other words sums of money which would make their standard of living better?

MR MBAMBO: You will say that if you like.

MR HEWIT: So the hit squad members then were not doing what they were doing simply for love of their particular ideology but they were also making a tidy bit on the side?

MR MBAMBO: Even if I did not receive the money, because the money issue was not even discussed initially, I would have carried out these activities for the IFP. So, the money was not an issue but our love and patriotism of the organisation and for the Zulu people inspired us to carry out these activities.

MR HEWIT: The receipt of this extra money must have made your work more attractive, correct?

MR MBAMBO: You would say that.

MR HEWIT: So it would be an over simplification to say that you simply did what you did for ideological reasons but you were also somewhat of a higher dun and so were other members of your group?

MR MBAMBO: No, that is not correct.

MR HEWIT: When you joined the police did you have a motorcar?

MR MBAMBO: No, I did not.

MR HEWIT: Did you ever own a motorcar during your membership of the KwaZulu Police Force?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: What motorcars did you own?

MR MBAMBO: A VW Jetta and BMW 328I, 320I.

MR HEWIT: Yes, any other motor vehicles?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Now those two motor vehicles which you have mentioned, did you own either of them at the same time? In other words have two motor vehicles together?

MR MBAMBO: No, it was at different periods.

MR HEWIT: When Nati Gumede was murdered, what motor vehicle did you have?

MR MBAMBO: I did not have a car.

MR HEWIT: Was Nati Gumede the person that you had bought a motor vehicle from?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: What motor vehicle was that?

MR MBAMBO: The VW Jetta.

MR HEWIT: And at the time he was murdered, did you still have that blue VW Jetta?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Where was that Jetta then?

MR MBAMBO: I have no idea.

MR HEWIT: Well when you bought the Jetta from him, didn't you say in your affidavit that you took in for various repairs?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Were the repairs effected to that VW Jetta?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, but they hadn't completed the repairs.

MR HEWIT: So where was the VW Jetta then when Nati Gumede was murdered?

MR MBAMBO: It was no longer at the panel beaters at Richards Bay. They said somebody had come and fetched the car. I went to the vehicle theft unit in Empangeni and saw Warrant Officer Cloete because he knew about the car. I asked him about it and he said he didn't have any information.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying Mr Mbambo, that that vehicle was stolen?

MR MBAMBO: I would say that it was stolen although Cloete thought that Nati could have taken it.

MR HEWIT: Did you have your BMW motor vehicle up until the time you bought the Jetta from Nati Gumede?

MR MBAMBO: No, I bought it thereafter.

MR HEWIT: Yes, but did you get rid of the BMW just before you bought the Jetta?

MR MBAMBO: I did not have a car before I owned the Jetta.

MR HEWIT: For how long a period of time was it that you didn't own a car?

CHAIRPERSON: Between the VW and the BMW?

MR HEWIT: Between the BMW and the Jetta?

MR MBAMBO: I think it was about two or three months.

MR HEWIT: Now Brian Mkhize, did he have a motorcar?

MR MBAMBO: He had a Mazda 323.

MR HEWIT: A Mazda 323?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And did he have that Mazda 323 at the time of Nati Gumede's murder?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: At the time of the murder, round about that time you used to see Brian Mkhize driving that Mazda 323?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Who was the other person that committed the murder on Nati Gumede with you, apart from Mkhize and yourself?

MR MBAMBO: Israel Hlongwane, Zwele Dlamini, Andile Xele.

MR HEWIT: Alright, let's deal with Israel Hlongwane, did he have a motor vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: No, he did not.

MR HEWIT: Are you saying that Israel Hlongwane never owned a motor vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Who was the other person you mentioned?

MR MBAMBO: Zwele Dlamini, did he have a motor car at that stage, round about the time of Nati Gumede's murder?

MR MBAMBO: No, he did not, he used a vehicle from the IFP offices.

MR HEWIT: And this other person you mentioned, I think it was Andile Xele, did he have a motor vehicle at the time?

MR MBAMBO: No, he did not.

MR HEWIT: Right, now is there any particular reason why you couldn't have gone to Durban to kidnap Nati Gumede, using Brian Mkhize's Mazda 323?

MR MBAMBO: We wouldn't have used ...[indistinct] car because it was his personal car and not for these activities.

MR HEWIT: Is that the only reason you wouldn't have used his car?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Not because it could be recognised?

MR MBAMBO: No, you could have changed the registration numbers.

MR HEWIT: Now what vehicle do you say you were given to perform this murder?

MR MBAMBO: It was a white Open Monza.

MR HEWIT: And you drove to Durban in this Monza to kidnap Gumede?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Now whose Open Monza was this?

MR MBAMBO: It belonged to the Chief Minister's Department.

MR HEWIT: With official government number plates on?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: So, is your evidence that your private car - was your private car ever used for any operation?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Was Brian Mkhize's private car ever used for any operation?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Were the cars of any of the members of the hit squad, their private cars, ever used for any operation?

MR MBAMBO: Except for Bebe Biela's.

MR HEWIT: And every time you used Biela's motor vehicle, did you change number plates or just drive the motor vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, we did change the number plates.

MR HEWIT: So he was happy each time for you to change his number plates for these operations?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, we changed our plates regularly.

MR HEWIT: And was this his private motor vehicle, not a government motor vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: As far as we knew it was a car allocated to him as the Mayor of eSikhawini.

MR HEWIT: Now, didn't you also use, according to you, Mrs Mbuaze's motor vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Did you never drive her motor vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: Mrs Mbuaze's vehicle?

MR HEWIT: Yes.

MR MBAMBO: I drove it many times.

MR HEWIT: And when you drove it on those other occasions, were the number plates left on or did you change those number plates?

MR MBAMBO: I would use it with it's original number plates.

MR HEWIT: And did you often drive in that car with her as well?

MR MBAMBO: It was my duty at the time when she teaching at Nongoma and she was staying at KwaZulu Government flats in Ulundi, to drive her every Sunday afternoon together with Mrs Mtale taking her back to Ulundi and I will return with the car and leave it with her husband Mr Mbuaze. On Fridays I will then go back to Ulundi to fetch her using her car.

MR HEWIT: And she would be in the car with you sometimes?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, on many occasions.

MR HEWIT: Did Mrs Mbuaze not have any problem or difficulty being seen in your company?

MR MBAMBO: No, she was very proud of being seen with me.

MR HEWIT: Now, these operations which you performed, would you describe them as covert operations?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: No covert operations means that they're under cover, they're clandestine and that the people who perpetrate the murders or the attacks, their identity shouldn't be known, isn't that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: And you wanted to keep your identify presumably secret?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is why I would wear a balaclava at night.

MR HEWIT: Mrs Mbuaze, did she want to keep her identity in this hit squad hierarchy a secret?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Prince Gideon Zulu, did he want to keep his identity in the hit squad hierarchy a secret?

MR MBAMBO: They all wanted to remain anonymous, that's why they're not here today.

MR HEWIT: And Mr Biela too, presumably he wanted to remain anonymous himself?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's true.

MR HEWIT: Now, as I understand your evidence, you and various other members of the hit squad were constantly at Mrs Mbuaze's house, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is the truth.

MR HEWIT: And as I understand your evidence yesterday, after one particular operation you actually all walked back to her house from the operation and she was outside waiting for you, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Was she not concerned about you members of the hit squad immediately coming back to her house after an attack?

MR MBAMBO: No, she was only concerned about our safety. She would only relax when she saw we were all returning safely.

MR HEWIT: So those instances then when you were seen at her house or went back to her house after an attack she didn't seem particularly worried about remaining anonymous or staying distant from you people?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Can you explain that, if the whole object of this manoeuvre was to be a covert operation and she was to remain anonymous?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly I will explain by saying that these covert operations you're talking about, you used your own definition of explaining it and I agree with certain elements

of your definition but as reference to the IFP's definition of covert, all that happened as has been explained here, happened within that ambit of covert operations and therefore our presence at Mrs Mbuaze's house made her proud and pleased. She would normally ride with me or Zina in her vehicle or Zweli Dlamini ...[end of tape]

MR HEWIT: ...[inaudible] read to you paragraph 89 of your affidavit at the typed page 37. In that paragraph you state as follows:

Is that correct, do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I remember.

MR HEWIT:

Correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

Correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Now, were you told to attack this house because the person in it was spreading rumours that Mrs Mbuaze was killing people?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Was Mrs Mbuaze, did she say that to you?

MR MBAMBO: We were told by her son Siabonga Mbuaze.

MR HEWIT: Well, did her son say that his mother was very annoyed about people spreading rumours that she was killing people?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: And do you know for a fact yourself that Mrs Mbuaze was annoyed and cross and angry about the fact that someone was spreading rumours that she was killing people?

MR MBAMBO: I do know.

MR HEWIT: From that did you conclude that she didn't want people to think she was killing people?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Yet she was happy to be seen in your company on a fairly regular basis?

MR MBAMBO: That's true.

MR HEWIT: Did the people in eSikhawini, the UDF, ANC people, did they know that you were a hit squad member?

MR MBAMBO: They had suspicions but were not certain of that fact.

MR HEWIT: But you were suspected of being a hit squad member?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Well don't you think that your continued association at Mrs Mbuaze's house made it obvious then to those people with those suspicions that Mrs Mbuaze must also be involved in the killing?

MR MBAMBO: That's something that has never concerned me, I've never thought that far.

MR HEWIT: Is your evidence that Mrs Mbuaze at no stage told you and other hit squad members to distance themselves from her or her home?

MR MBAMBO: She wanted us to remain close to her.

MR HEWIT: So you wasn't worried about people seeing you at her home?

MR MBAMBO: No, not at all.

MR HEWIT: But in the next breath she was very annoyed when people associated the two of you as possibly suspected of killing people?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR HEWIT: Did Mr Biela ever object to you going to his home?

MR MBAMBO: No, never.

MR HEWIT: Did he at no stage ever say he was concerned about people associating hit squad members with him?

MR MBAMBO: When rumours started circulating that his vehicle was suspected in the activities of hit squads the only thing that the did was to take this car and drive it personally and he took the Nissan Skyline and gave it to his wife, that was the only thing that he did.

MR HEWIT: Mr Luthuli told us that there was a certain chain of command with eSikhawini hit squad, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Who was your immediate superior?

MR MBAMBO: Ginam Mkhize.

MR HEWIT: Who was his immediate superior?

MR MBAMBO: Mr Mbuaze, Bebe Biela, Brigadier Umzumela, G M Mkhize the Councillor, Chief Mataba, Mr Mnzuza, a J1 Councillor, Mrs Njali, a Councillor at H1.

MR HEWIT: So it would be incorrect to state then that Mkhize was to take his instructions only from a superior officer in the Police Force, namely Captain Langene and no-one else?

MR MBAMBO: It is not true. He received instructions from Captain Langene as well as from Prince Gideon Zulu, as well as from the local leadership because a matter would be taken from the local leadership and then referred to Captain Langene and then it would be referred back to Ginam Mkhize.

MR HEWIT: If that was the system surely the only person that Mkhize would ever have to deal with would be Captain Langene?

MR MBAMBO: Not only Captain Langene but the others that I've mentioned as well as Dalaxolo Luthuli as well M Z Khumalo.

MR HEWIT: Why could Captain Langene not get information from the hierarchy and then just deal with the policemen immediately below him, namely Mkhize? Wouldn't that have been a more secure system?

MR MBAMBO: I would agree with you but that was the way the IFP chose to operate.

MR HEWIT: So what you're saying to us is that in this whole establishment of the hit squad system and the way it worked no regard whatsoever was paid to security as one would normally find in the police force or in the military?

MR MBAMBO: We did take precautions because if we hadn't done so we would be arrested or incarcerated for these other crimes that we exposed here.

MR HEWIT: I want to look at paragraph 22 of your affidavit. In that paragraph which is headed:

you say that in late February or early March 1992 you attended a meeting:

do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And then on paragraph 24 of your affidavit you state that at that meeting it was further suggested by Mrs Mbuaze that:

do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And then you stated also in that paragraph:

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: So was it decided at that meeting, which is February or March '92, that Dlamini was to be murdered?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: When was Dlamini actually murdered?

MR MBAMBO: In 1993.

MR HEWIT: What month in 1993?

MR MBAMBO: I think it was between June and May.

MR HEWIT: And once you'd received an instruction to eliminate someone, did you have to obey that instruction?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: You couldn't disobey it under any circumstances?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Could you quarrel with that instruction?

MR MBAMBO: We were expected to do as we were instructed and that's it.

MR HEWIT: You couldn't persuade the hierarchy not to carry out the instruction or that they should abandon the instruction?

MR MBAMBO: No, we would not, we would only suggest.

MR HEWIT: Well please have a look at paragraph 29. In paragraph 29 you state:

do you remember saying that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now do you remember when that meeting was in relation to the first on in February or March '92? How long after was that second meeting?

MR MBAMBO: Two weeks did not lapse before we were called to Ulundi.

MR HEWIT: And then in that paragraph you say:

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Didn't you raise those objections at the first meeting?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Why not?

MR MBAMBO: There was no opportunity to suggest that.

MR HEWIT: Is that because you didn't have any role of questioning orders, you just simply had to accept them and carry them out?

MR MBAMBO: We had an opportunity.

MR HEWIT: Well why did you at the second meeting tell you that you weren't going to carry out the order in effect?

MR MBAMBO: This would not be accepted, it would actually upset the local leadership because they were the ones who were directly involved pertaining to Sergeant Khumalo. And the leadership at Ulundi got information from the eSikhawini local leadership. If the leadership at Ulundi advised that we did not continue with the killing of Sergeant Khumalo and if the eSikhawini leadership suggested that we continue, the Ulundi instruction would outweigh that from eSikhawini and therefore we would follow the Ulundi instruction.

MR HEWIT: Who actually finally decided that Dlamini should be killed?

MR MBAMBO: I on that day had a meeting with Captain Masinga, my branch commander.

MR HEWIT: Yes, carry on. And?

MR MBAMBO: After the discussion I went to Ginam Mkhize's office at the Reaction Unit and we left for Mrs Mbuaze's place and informed her and after that the three of us went to Shlanganani Hall where she phoned Brigadier Umzumela and after that a call came from Ulundi and that was Captain Langene on the line and he gave an instruction to ...[indistinct] Mkhize that Sergeant Dlamini must have been killed by Monday. That was on a Friday, that day.

MR HEWIT: In paragraph 110 of your affidavit you deal with this raid on your home where various white policemen arrived and found weapons in your home, correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now when did that occur?

MR MBAMBO: It happened in '93 but I cannot remember exactly when.

MR HEWIT: Was it shortly before Dlamini was murdered?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now this raid on your home by these white policemen, Sergeant Dlamini was outside the home when they entered your home, destroyed the door and found the guns, correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And how long before that then was he killed, a day, two days?

MR MBAMBO: No, I would not say, maybe a week or two must have lapsed or a month, I cannot be sure.

MR HEWIT: And was that the incident where you saw him outside your home?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Was it obvious to you that he had brought these policemen to your home on a report by him that you had unlawful firearms in your possession?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now that is what, in April '93?

MR MBAMBO: I would not say: "no" if you say that.

MR HEWIT: What monitoring did you do of Sergeant Dlamini between February and March of 1992, before this raid on your home in '93?

MR MBAMBO: Nothing.

MR HEWIT: So you persuaded the leadership in February or March '92 that Sergeant Dlamini shouldn't be eliminated immediately but that you should monitor his activities before he was eliminated, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: We are talking about Sergeant Khumalo?

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 29 Mr Hewit, it says that they were talking about Detective Sergeant Khumalo.

MR HEWIT: May I refer also to that paragraph Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HEWIT: In paragraph 25 at the same meeting where you say:

You say in paragraph 25:

and then you mention Captain Masinga again, then you mentioned Detective Sergeant Khumalo and you also mentioned Sergeant Dlamini, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So both Khumalo and Dlamini were selected and an instruction was given to you and other members of the hit squad to eliminate him, according to the dates, during late February or early March 1992?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Right, now what I want to know is what did you do about eliminating Dlamini between February or March 1992 and the time in 1993 when these policemen raided your home and found unlawful firearms in your possession and Dlamini was outside and it was obvious to you that Dlamini had brought them there?

MR MBAMBO: It was to monitor him, trying to kill him but we failed.

MR HEWIT: Are you saying that for that entire year before, between the two dates, you were trying to kill him?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: How did you fail?

MR MBAMBO: He had two houses, one in J2 and another one is H1 and his legal wife resided in H1 and she was a police woman at the KwaZulu Police and the house is just in front of the police station gate. ...[indistinct] he resided with his second wife. If he was in H1 it would be very difficult to attack him there because first of all his house was opposite the police station.

Secondly his wife was a police and because of that we would not attack his home. And in J2 he never used to frequent the place and therefore it would be difficult to establish as to which house he was at what time.

And thirdly there was also Constable Skanjiso who was also a Caprivian but he was not within our hit squad because he was drinking excessively and he was always next to Dlamini. They drank together and moved around together a lot. Even when we came across his car with an intention of hitting it, Skanjiso would be inside the car and therefore we would abort the operation. These are some of the things that prohibited us from carrying out our duty and we also had something else to do at the same time.

MR HEWIT: So how many attempts were made between the time that he was, his name was put up for elimination and the police raided your home for the illegal firearms?

MR MBAMBO: Four times.

MR HEWIT: And on the actual day which you did kill him the operation seemed to go incredibly smoothly, without any hitches at all, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: And the day that you killed him was a short time after he brought the police, the white policemen to your home where they found illegal firearms?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And are you saying that it was just a coincidence, nothing more than a coincidence that he was killed after you had been found in possession of unlawful firearms?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I can say that.

MR HEWIT: You say that his murder, very shortly of that incident, had absolutely nothing to do with that incident?

MR MBAMBO: No, what he did at my house after for example having reported to Mrs Mbuaze, she reported to Brigadier Umzumela and Brigadier Umzumela requested that myself and Mr Mbuaze come to his office. On arrival he reprimanded from the time when I entered his office until I left, saying that he had long issued an instruction that the person should be killed and what were we waiting for.

He said we were not sharp anymore and he then sent me to go to Mrs Mbuaze at Ulundi and obtain a statement about what Sergeant Dlamini did at my house and he was going to file this statement in the BSI file. That would be the file to the effect that instructions to the death of Mr Dlamini had to be carried out. I indeed went to Ulundi and wrote the statement and I brought it back to Brigadier Umzumela. I think the statement is still in the file if it had not been removed.

MR HEWIT: In paragraph 115 of your affidavit you describe your working clothes and there you say:

is that the attire which you donned every time you went out on an assassination?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Then in paragraph 117 of your affidavit where you actually deal with the murder of Sergeant Dlamini, at the end of that paragraph you say:

do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

MR HEWIT:

is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Can I assume then that when you went to murder Sergeant Dlamini you weren't wearing your working clothes, namely a balaclava over your head to conceal your identity?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Well now it seems to me that the murder of Sergeant Dlamini does not appear to have been executed in a professional way as if it was simply a political assassination. It seems to me that this murder was effected out of anger and rage because he'd done his duty as a policeman and brought policemen to you home to find illegal weapons. Can you explain why you didn't take precautions by covering your identity to go and murder this person?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly, I was wearing the camouflage that I usually used but I did not have my balaclava on. If you still remember very well, on leaving the house we did not have an intention to kill Ndanda and Sergeant Dlamini but we were accompanying Xena to look for Lamula, not with the intention to kill him but they had to have a fair fight. That is the reason why we went with Allie who was not a member of the hit squad.

And when we were at Paul's shebeen and Xena was at Nbula's in the house and Ndanda came, after having looked for him for some time I therefore did not see reason to let go of that opportunity. I then went to Ndanda, myself and Israel as I appear here with not disguise. That is why when I called him, on turning to face us he recognised me and he tried to draw his gun. After that we then went back to J2 where I resided. And because we had just completed a successful operation we then decided to go via Dlamini to check if he was not home and we also carried out an attack there.

Xena has already explained that he shot twice using a shotgun. He was shooting upwards knowing that nobody was going to hurt with these two shots, so that Sergeant Dlamini should answer and that would indicate to us as to his presence and we were hoping that he would shoot back but he instead insulted us. I agree with you that it was unprofessional, the manner in which we carried out our attacks in these two places because we did not have an intention of hitting them when we left the house. That is why those two cases landed us in jail, yes I agree with you.

MR HEWIT: Before the police came to your home, the white policemen came to your home and found the firearms, you had not personal problem with Dlamini?

MR MBAMBO: Not at all.

MR HEWIT: There was no ill feeling between the two of you?

MR MBAMBO: No, not at all.

MR HEWIT: It was simply a job of work, that you'd been told to kill him?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: After the policemen came to your home, and in doing so they smashed down your door as I gather.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And it appeared to you then that you were going to be arrested initially?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: You then see that the person that is responsible for all of this is Dlamini outside.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: I presume that at that point your feelings for him became a little more personal, you must have been annoyed with them then.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So the first time that a dislike or a hatred or an annoyance with Dlamini came into the picture was the very night when the police burst into your home and found you in possession of unlicensed firearms?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, you can put it that way if you wish but I decided perhaps that what he did confirmed what was happening at the Goldstone Commission because Goldstone, Dlamini was working hand in hand with Goldstone initially pertaining to the investigation reference to the hit squad. And what he did to me, he did not only do it because I am Romeo Mbambo. He could have done it if it were Ginam Mkhize who had an arms cache.

And because the firearms were at my place he decided to bring them to my place, not because I am Romeo Mbambo. And for example, I can say he was continuing to fight the hit squad and the IFP.

MR HEWIT: Anyway, the point of the matter is that the very first time you tried to kill him after you had a personal reason to dislike him, namely after the raid on your home and the firearm incident, you were successful.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And you'd failed on four occasions before to kill him when you didn't have a personal dislike of the man?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And you're asking this Committee to believe are you, that your killing of Sergeant Dlamini was strictly political and had nothing to do with any personal grudge because he almost got you arrested?

MR MBAMBO: It is within the Committee to decide which one of the stories to believe. But what I have said here before the Committee, that is what I know to be the truth, nothing else.

MR HEWIT: Right, let's talk about this incident involving the murder of Nati Gumede which also seems to have a bit of a personal connection between you and him. Did Nati Gumede know that you were a member of a hit squad when you bought this VW Jetta from him?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know.

MR HEWIT: You have no reason to believe that he was aware of your secret life?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: As far as you were concerned he was just conducting a commercial transaction with an ordinary person?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Why then do you assume that when he blamed you over the BMW and reported you to the police regarding this BMW and a criminal activity, that he was acting in pursuance of some ANC/UDF plot against you? Why did you think politics came into it at all?

MR MBAMBO: After Captain Langene had told Ginam Mkhize that we should monitor Nati and establish whereas he came from and what reasons did he have for telling lies about me and we started doing exactly that.

The first person that we spoke to was Andile Xele who told us that he knew Nati Gumede from Langezwa and he knew that he was an ANC Youth at Langezwa and he's also one of the ANC members that they were fighting now that he fled and settled in Durban.

From then on we started monitoring him and find out what reasons he had. One day in the evening Zwele, Dlamini and myself together with Israel Hlongwane as well as Principal Mbambo who leader of the IFP Eshowe travelled in his car to Langezwa going to Nati Gumede's place. It was in the evening. On arrival we found two cars and we knew that those cars belonged to the ANC offices in Empangeni. It was a white Ford Meteor with a black stripe down and a red Ford Escort. And we went back.

This happened and Xena was reporting everything to Ulundi until we were summoned to Ulundi by Prince Gideon Zulu. And on arrival there we were given this instruction and Dalaxolo Luthuli was also present. The instruction was that we should go and kill Nati Gumede ...[intervention]

MR HEWIT: You've given us all this evidence before. Basically what you're saying is that because you saw that there was a red Ford Escort and a black and white Ford Meteor parked in his yard and that these same vehicles had been parked outside the ANC Regional Office, you concluded that he must be a member of the ANC, is that what you're saying?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We also have information that he was ANC Youth fighting at Shlangeni.

MR HEWIT: So established he's ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And right. So then in paragraph 104 then, you say that you reported this whole thing, your observation of Nati Gumede, back to Captain Langene by telephone, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, Ginam Mkhize did this.

MR HEWIT: And then you say:

is that right?

MR MBAMBO: That was on the first report, that's Ginam to Captain Langene.

MR HEWIT: So Langene didn't tell you to assassinate this man then and there because you now established he is ANC?

MR MBAMBO: Those were the first developments and we continued with those. Finding the ANC vehicle at his home happened a while after we'd been told by Andele Xele what he knew about him. Therefore the conversation between Xele and Captain Langene concerned the very first developments.

Subsequent to other developments we were then summoned to Ulundi and it was at that time that we received an instruction to kill him.

MR HEWIT: Yes, and that suggestion was made by Luthuli wasn't it?

MR MBAMBO: It was Prince Gideon Zulu and Dalaxolo Luthuli.

MR HEWIT: Well in paragraph 106 of your affidavit you say this:

is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: So was he the first person that said that the way to deal with this problem was to kill the man?

MR MBAMBO: No. Dalaxolo said this after he'd been reprimanded heavily by Prince Gideon Zulu.

MR HEWIT: Well who before Luthuli said: "Kill Gumede"?

MR MBAMBO: Prince Gideon Zulu.

MR HEWIT: Well that's not how your affidavit reads.

MR MBAMBO: I agree with what you say.

MR HEWIT: You agree that in your affidavit you make it clear that the suggestion to kill starts with Luthuli, at paragraph 106?

MR MBAMBO: But Prince Gideon Zulu was the first to suggest because he was going to give us the car.

MR HEWIT: So is your affidavit incorrect then? Because in the previous paragraph ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if he could be given that - do you have a copy of the affidavit before you Mr Mbambo?

MR MBAMBO: I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Hewit, it would be easier if he had a copy. It's paragraph - are you busy with paragraph 106?

MR HEWIT: I think in fairness to the witness Mr Chairman, I should probably start at paragraph 104.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

It's paragraph 104 of your affidavit that's page 46 of the record, page 44 of your affidavit.

MR HEWIT: Do you have that affidavit in front of you Mr Mbambo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Right, paragraph 104 reads as follows:

is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: So you confirm that even though it was reported to Nati Gumede, sorry, to Captain Langene, that Nati Gumede now was obviously ANC because these vehicles were seen outside his home, he did give you an instruction then to kill the man? Do you agree with that?

MR MBAMBO: I do.

MR HEWIT: Right. Proceed to paragraph 105. You then say:

is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

is that right?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

correct?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Another incident where she doesn't seem to worry about this hit man, you, driving her car, which is known?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

correct?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: And then you say this in paragraph 106:

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Then you say:

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: So he is the first man that says: "Kill the person", not Prince Gideon Zulu.

MR MBAMBO: No.

ADV MOTATA: No, in fairness Mr Hewit, you should also have in the background that the tenor of his evidence was that Prince Gideon Zulu would never speak directly, he would speak through Dalaxolo Luthuli, in fairness to the witness.

MR HEWIT: I don't - I'll deal with that in argument, I don't propose to deal with that now.

Was it Dalaxolo Luthuli who raise the question of the assassination?

MR MBAMBO: Prince Gideon Zulu did. ...[intervention]

MR HEWIT: In his words he spoke first, not Dalaxolo Luthuli?

MR MBAMBO: He was reprimanding Dalaxolo saying: "Why have you waited so long to kill this person. Then Dalaxolo reprimanded us. Xena then mentioned that ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] for us to take or to travel with to Durban.

MR HEWIT: Well I'm happy with the different answers that you've given.

Would you bear with me Mr Chairman?

I want to go to paragraphs 7 and 8 of your affidavit now, and in particular paragraph 6 of your affidavit. I want to start with the last part of that where you are dealing with your association with this Mr Umvuyana. Do you see that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now Umvuyana is deceased isn't he?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Right, you say at the bottom of paragraph 6:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Was Umvuyana at that stage a fugitive from the police, was he on the run?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Was he a member of the South African Police?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Was he a member of the KwaZulu Police?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Well, what - did the South African Police want to arrest this man? Tell us, what were the South African Police interested in him for?

MR MBAMBO: He was wanted for crimes committed in kwaMakutha, Umbumbulu, Lamontville and Umlazi. He had 36, 35 cases against him, 35 or 35.

MR HEWIT: Were some of those cases, to your knowledge, for theft and armed robbery as well, alleged theft and armed robbery?

MR MBAMBO: I knew about murders.

MR HEWIT: Any other crimes that he was allegedly hunted for or wanted for?

MR MBAMBO: I do not know of any.

MR HEWIT: Anything, any crimes involving motor vehicles?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't know about that.

MR HEWIT: It could be so but he didn't tell you about it, is that what you're saying?

MR MBAMBO: It could happen.

MR HEWIT: Go to paragraph 7, you say:

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Is this what Umvuyana told you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's true.

MR HEWIT: You weren't present when Doctor Buthelezi spoke to him?

MR MBAMBO: I was not present in the office but I was around the premises at Ulundi and the KwaZulu Parliament.

MR HEWIT: Yes. Alright, anyway it was Umvuyana who told you that Doctor Buthelezi wanted to see him?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, and he went into his office.

MR HEWIT: Right. Then you say:

is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: You stayed in your vehicle, the vehicle the entire time?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Well while you waited for him, were you not in your vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: I was but I did not spend the rest of the time in the car, I got out of the car at some point.

MR HEWIT: Did you park the car outside the building?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR HEWIT: In the road?

MR MBAMBO: In a parking area just near the building.

MR HEWIT: Right. And when you got out, did you just get out to stretch your legs and walk around the area where the car was parked?

MR MBAMBO: No, I went with him to the entrance and there were police there and it was just himself and he also introduced me and he explained whom he had come to see and was searched and they took his gun. He went ahead and I remained behind. After a while I went back to the car.

MR HEWIT: Alright, so I gather from what you're saying, you did not enter the building?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: And at no stage did you enter the building?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: And at no stage did you see Doctor Buthelezi?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Everything you're telling us here about what transpired, if it transpired at all between Doctor Buthelezi and Umvuyana, is what this dead man Umvuyana told you according to you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Right, now let's carry on with this paragraph.

You don't say in that paragraph you got out and went to the door do you?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: No.

This is all what this dead person told you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, and it did occur.

MR HEWIT: This now dead person, this now dead person? Correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT:

MR MBAMBO: A mistake was committed here. That car eventually ended up being used by General Buchner.

MR HEWIT: Have you finished?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Anyway, the point is that at no stage were you present when the Chief Minister was allegedly having conversations with this Mr Umvuyana?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Everything you're telling us is hearsay?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now, in neither of those paragraphs do we see any reference to the evidence which you gave at this hearing, namely that when he came back out of this building he was carrying a lot of money.

MR MBAMBO: It is not in the affidavit.

MR HEWIT: Why not?

MR MBAMBO: I do not know why it is not in the statement but in the statements that I made to the ITU I mentioned it.

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions for the witness. I simply wish to place on record as previously, the denial of those persons that we represent and their implication and any offences that he's testified to, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewit. Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mbambo, I want you to turn to page ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, maybe if you swop your mike with Mr ...[indistinct] it might be better because I notice that sometimes when two are on, you get this whistle but not always.

MR MPSHE: I want you to turn to page 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 8 of the affidavit or the record?

MR MPSHE: Page 8 of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: It's page 5 of your affidavit.

MR MPSHE: Paragraph 15.

MR MBAMBO: I've found it.

MR MPSHE: I'll read that paragraph for you.

...[intervention] Mr Chairman, I've got a problem with this hearing aid.

MR MPSHE: Paragraph 15, I'll read it for you. It reads:

and then the next sentence continues:

Now my question is going to be based on that last statement.

Do you see that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Did you agree and cherish this instruction?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Did you, when agreeing and cherishing this instruction, take it upon yourself not to do the contrary of your instructions?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Did you, in the operation you carried out, desist from doing the opposite of what was told to you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Then how do you account, if that is the position, the operations in the shebeen in particular?

MR MBAMBO: The strategy changed and it was changed by Prince Gideon Zulu and the leadership of the hit squads.

MR MPSHE: Now did you agree to the change of that strategy?

MR MBAMBO: We did no have a choice.

MR MPSHE: But did you find it in order? I'm talking about yourself now. Let's put aside the leadership instruction, did you find it in order to kill innocent people?

MR MBAMBO: I did not see them as innocent people. In the IFP and ANC person was not an innocent.

MR MPSHE: I'll be specific with you, if you remember the time when Sergeant Khumalo was killed there was this Mabika innocent person who was standing next to Khumalo, how do you explain that one?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's right.

MR MPSHE: Was there any establishment about Mabika, that he was an ANC member?

MR MBAMBO: No, Mr Magika's death was an accident.

MR MPSHE: And if then you are applying for amnesty for the killing of Sergeant Khumalo, you definitely are not going to include Mr Mabika as well?

MR MBAMBO: We also include him.

MR MPSHE: Why would he be included because he was just an innocent bystander?

MR MBAMBO: We include him because we no longer had control of Nglagane Mpumatengua when he shot at Sergeant Khumalo. And we did not see Mabika, myself, Xena and Bennie Mlambo. The only person who saw him was Nglagane Mpumatengua.

We only heard when we went to the police station to confirm if he indeed was dead and we discovered that it was not only Sergeant Khumalo who had been killed but that there were two people who had died and one of them was Mr Mabika.

MR MPSHE: If you were in the position of Mpumatengua, would you find any political justification in the death of Mabika?

MR MBAMBO: No, I would not.

MR MPSHE: At the beginning of your evidence you testified that you knew Ginam Mkhize before 1992.

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Was together in the police force, do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MPSHE: Did you know at that time about his covert operations?

MR MBAMBO: No, but I knew about the operations of the Israelites and Ginam was one of the people who had been trained in Israel as far as we knew at that time.

MR MPSHE: What in particular besides Mkhize being a colleague in the police force, what in particular did you know about him?

MR MBAMBO: I didn't know anything else.

MR MPSHE: ...[inaudible] Mr Chairman, if you could just bear with me, I'm trying to find something here in the pages. Thank you Mr Chairman.

Now you were approached by Ginam Mkhize, if I recall well, recruited by him?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: And at the time when he was recruiting you he must have told you why he wanted you to join them?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: And amongst others he told you that the killing of ANC members would be involved?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Did he put any pressure on you to join them?

MR MBAMBO: No, the only thing that he said, he first explained to me that he had seen me on a number of occasions with Sepiwe Umvuyana and he enquired about my relationship with him, which I have explained to this Commission.

From then he learnt that I was a staunch IFP member and he told me that he has been making his enquiries because what he was going to tell me must be something that he was going to tell to the right person because if he were talking to a wrong person he would have to silence me so that I do not tell others.

MR MPSHE: At that time when he was saying this to you, had he already started telling you about their operations?

MR MBAMBO: No. He first asked me about my relationship with Sepiwe and about my life. He told me about the operations after he had said that if he had been taking to a wrong person he would have to silence me, but he said this jokingly.

MR MPSHE: When he said this to you that if he was saying this to a wrong person then you'd have to be silenced, didn't that trigger something in your mind as to something unlawful was going to be - or that you were going to be asked to do things that would not normally be done, especially when he spoke of the silencing?

MR MBAMBO: Honestly speaking I was already aware of what was going on and I was aware that there were people that were operating in hit squad activities and Ginam was known to be one of the Israelis. So I realised that what he was telling me was in line with all of this.

MR HEWIT: Then we can safely conclude that you voluntarily joined the operations or joined the hit squad, there was no pressure or force on your part?

MR MBAMBO: No, not at all.

MR MPSHE: Which would mean that the instructions given to you later on by Dalaxolo Luthuli, by Langene and others, you were looking forward to such instructions voluntarily, not that if you do not carry them out something would happen to you?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: You were told by Ginam and perhaps by Langene and Dalaxolo after you had been introduced to them, that your target or the opposition was the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: And you would kill the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR MPSHE: You just told us that you agreed voluntarily to participate in the killing of the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: If I say to you that you agreed to join and to kill, not because of any other reason but because you had this hatred against the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, that will be all the questions from my side but I want to bring this to the attention of the Members of the Committee that you will recall that we had, when Ginam Mkhize had testified, we had the family member from the Khumalo family who was accorded an opportunity to put questions to Ginam Mkhize.

A similar request has been made by the family members again of the Khumalo family and I discussed this with them yesterday, that the incident is the same and they had that opportunity but they insisted that they wanted to be given this opportunity again because it's a different person but we finally came to a compromise that rather they write the questions and I put them to him on their behalf. I need direction from the Committee as I've got a list of questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can do that. Would there be any objections to that Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No, Mr Chairperson, we're committed to answer any questions from any member from the floor. What I would like to suggest, I do see it's 1 o'clock and it is a taxing session for the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I was going to suggest that I wouldn't be doing it now as it's past 1 o'clock.

Mr Mpshe, then perhaps we can proceed on the basis that you have put to us now but we will do so after the lunch adjournment.

MR MPSHE: Perhaps Mr Chairman before we adjourn, another directive I want. Another victim, Mr Bongani Msome also approached us, by us I mean me and my colleague, to do the same thing with reference to evidence by the current applicant and I also indicated to him that only if he touches on him, he'll only be allowed to ask questions only inasfar as that is concerned but I will take this up further with him again, to continue after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we'd have to establish which incident was involved and whether Mr Mbambo was personally involved in that incident because if not I don't think it would really be appropriate but if so then, yes. But we will at this stage take the lunch adjournment, thank you.

R MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry, could we have some quiet please?

Mr Mbambo, you can take your jacket off if you wish.

Mr Mpshe you mentioned before the lunch adjournment that you were to put some questions that have been posed by the members of the Khumalo family and Msome family, thanks.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mbambo, I'm going to put questions to you on request by the Khumalo family.

They want to know as to whether Sergeant Khumalo was a true policeman doing his police duties properly or not?

MR MBAMBO: He was known as a very dedicated police.

MR MPSHE: What were the sources of information within the KwaZulu Police other than Captain M A Malinga or Masinga?

MR MBAMBO: Apart form the MSI information at the local leadership, that he discussed dockets with the ANC dockets. There is nothing else to my knowledge.

MR MPSHE: Now at that time of effecting the brutal killing of Sergeant Khumalo, the rank he was holding was that of a Sergeant whilst at the same time being a branch commander of such a big Murder and Robbery Unit controlling eSikhawini, Nthambanana and other places, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR MPSHE: If then you say yes to the above question, the rank he was holding, was that the best he was deserving being a branch commander whilst his colleagues were holding higher ranks e.g. Captain Major, wasn't it showing hostility or any form of negativity by the local police management, including the Ulundi office?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR MPSHE: How many years did he serve in the police being a Sergeant?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know but I think it may have above 10 years.

MR MPSHE: If you had not been found guilty or convicted of certain criminal activities excluding my brother's assassination, as you were not charged, would you have disclosed the killing of Sergeant Khumalo or not?

MR MBAMBO: I would not be in the position to answer that question because things that led me to appear here happened after my arrest.

MR MPSHE: Now had the TRC not been established to allow people to apply for amnesty as you are now doing, what else would you have been doing to rehabilitate yourself, get yourself to meet the victims or the next of kin of those killed and to establish a form of compensation to the bereaved?

MR MBAMBO: I would do this through the Court because statements that involve this case in the ITU, that simply means that the ITU was not investigating for the TRC but it was undergoing a Court investigation. That was the route I would take to inform the Khumalo family as to how Sergeant Khumalo died and also furnish reasons thereof and also give names of people who were involved.

Pertaining to the compensation to the Khumalo family I would go back to the IFP because the IFP is a bit organisation, strong with good finance of their own and also being government in this KwaZulu Natal Province. Maybe this would have happened and I would plead that a trust be established to look into the needs of the people who lost families and members of kin during the time of the IFP's struggle, struggling for the success which they finally attained here in KwaZulu Natal.

Because the IFP has contacts in foreign countries, asking for funds there, could have helped to assist the relatives of those who suffered. I therefore do not see any other way through which I can help those who suffered. I cannot do anything in particular myself as an individual but I know that with the assistance of the organisation, that is the IFP together of course with the ANC, I know that this can be a success because these people are victims of the two organisations. That's the way in which I think these people could be helped.

MR MPSHE: Do you remember the instance when Bebe Biela was being arrested for cross questioning by the members of the Murder and Robbery Unit under the command of Sergeant Khumalo?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't.

MR MPSHE: In expressing you dissatisfaction to eliminate Sergeant Khumalo, your main point of argument you raised was that there was not sufficient evidence, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: If you are referring to the meeting at Ulundi, yes we had a reason that I would like to state here. We knew Sergeant Khumalo as a person who was close to the IFP leaders and he used to wear dust coats, the kind of overalls that are used by people working in factories and he would also wear inside or just beneath the overalls, this IFP T-shirt, a T-shirt that would have a picture of M G Buthelezi.

MR MPSHE: Then if your answer to that question is: "yes", this was then accepted by the hit squad hierarchy that you were going to monitor the movements of Sergeant Khumalo and if your findings were positive you should proceed with the elimination, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MPSHE: And again if that is how the position was to be, it is contradictory with Mkhize's evidence, Ginam Mkhize's evidence, who said himself and yourself did not have to do any investigation in implementing the killing. Thus this gives a benefit of doubt that what you are telling the Committee is true. In other words the question is that if you say the hierarchy of the IFP had instructed you to carry on in spite of the fact that you had indicated your dissatisfaction, it contradicts Ginam Mkhize's evidence who said that there was no need for investigation on your part in order to carry out the elimination, do you see that contradiction?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is a contradiction but what Ginam said is true. He was trying to explain that there was not need for us to monitor him and report to the Commander, we just had to kill him. But knowing him I want to believe that Ginam was very fond of Sergeant Khumalo.

He raised that, not because it was a suggestion or Ginam's suggestion, that would not be a final decision. If for example the IFP leadership said they don't care, he just had to be killed, we would do exactly that, we would not even monitor him.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman ....[intervention]

ADV MOTATA: Before you proceed Mr Mpshe, I would draw your attention to the record, page 116, paragraph 85 where it said that - I will just get the line for you, it would be the 6th line:

What I'm saying to you is that if you want to further canvass that point, but it would appear from the record that Mr Ginam Mkhize also mentioned a fact of that nature.

MR MPSHE: Thank you, I'm indebted to the Committee Member on that aspect.

Mr Chairman, this concludes the questions from the Khumalo family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as I had indicated before the lunch adjournment about the other victim Mr Bongani Msome, I had a short talk with him during the lunch adjournment and the restriction will be to what shall have been said by the current applicant and he's said he's aware thereof, he will just put questions about what he has said about him. If the Committee permits, may he be called to the stand? He is available, he's sitting right in front.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is Msome present? Mr Msome can you come forward please? I wonder if someone could make a microphone available for Mr Msome? Mr Msome, what are your full names please?

MR MSOME: My name is Bongani Msome.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Msome, it's been indicated you have some questions to ask of the witness, is that correct?

MR MSOME: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you proceed please.

MR MSOME: Thank you very much Chairperson for granting me this opportunity.

I would like to ask as to what is it that in the testimony of the people who are applying for amnesty,

when they are asked questions or when they are giving examples, especially examples that they are giving here seem not to be examples taken from their affidavits. I am saying this because in what Mr Mkhize said and that which has been said by Mr Romeo Mbambo, it is clear that the one person that they wanted very strongly here was myself.

Mr Ginam also said when he was asked questions, there was nothing that they did not do to try and get hold of me so as to kill me. They only fell short of bewitching me. I therefore want to ask as to why other similarly important incidents do not appear in their statements?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question Mr Mbambo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you prepared to answer, can you answer it?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

At the time of writing these statements we wrote them at the ITU. The ITU is this unit that was investigating the hit squad activities but they were investigating for the Court, not for the TRC purposes. We mentioned a number of things because we indicated to them that if we were speaking about only one incident there are some things that we might forget.

It would be best that we should start from the beginning and explain everything and they would only take what they required and write it down and leave out those incidents which they felt were not important in building up the case. And therefore they were very much concerned about the conspiracy and the people who were involved in the conspiracy during that particular incident.

And therefore many things such as that, yourself for example we tried very much to kill you but your incident was left out because we did not shoot you and we did not kill you. They were very much concerned about the cases that they wanted to investigate. Therefore I would say the ITU is the one to blame here.

MR MSOME: Mr Chairman, I do understand the question by I would wish that perhaps Mr Mbambo should perhaps state here as in yes or no as to whether the statements that they are using here for amnesty, do you regard them as complete or not.

MR MBAMBO: We are asking amnesty for incidents where we attacked. This information is complete except for example if it happened that we didn't remember certain things. Things that happened such as discussions, meetings, these do not appear in the affidavit, these are things that pertained to the political situation. For example, the plot to kill you does not appear here, that is why this was left out even though we had informed the Court about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msome, perhaps I can inform you that at the commencement of these proceedings when we were still sitting in Durban, this point about precisely what the applicants are applying for was raised by the Committee and the legal representatives are working on bringing out a table of incidents for which they are actually applying for amnesty. Obviously we as a Committee can't grant or refuse amnesty in respect of an incident which hasn't been applied for because in their application forms they've merely said:

for what they're applying for amnesty for. But it's very difficult because if one takes a look at a 130 page affidavit there's many sorts of incidents and we've for it to be tabulated so that's in the process of being done.

MR MSOME: Mr Chairperson, thank you. But I am saying this because they had repeated on several occasions that they were involved in a number of attempts to try and kill me. I lost everything. My house was burnt down and I don't even know the people who burnt my house and as to who sent them. My car was also burnt and I don't know who instructed these people to do so. My life was just shattered. I would wish therefore that they explain to the community that in their wish and attempts to kill me, what exactly it is that they did to try and kill me.

MR MBAMBO: Firstly, we knew that Mr Bongani Msome stayed in Gwelezane. There is a house in Gwelezane B Section where Mr M R Mkhize who was in charge of the IFP office, used to stay. We met there one day, myself and Zwele Dlamini as well as Israel Hlongwane and he showed us where Mr Bongani Msome stayed. We went to look for you there but we did not find you and on a second occasion we got an information to the effect that you were not residing in Port Dunford.

It was alleged that you had a girlfriend there with whom you were staying and we went there as well to look for you and we could not find you. We also went and parked at the Murder and Robbery Unit offices at Umpangeni and we waited for your Skyline because we knew that you had a green Skyline.

The offices of the Murder and Robbery Unit are closer to the ANC unit at Empangeni. We saw your Skyline and we also saw ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] waited for these two vehicles, hoping that you would leave and we would follow you thereafter and kill you on the road.

We waited there until it was dusk and we waited there until dusk and you had not left the office. I still remember very well that Ginam prayed asking you from your ancestors ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you keep quiet please. Could they repeat?

MS KHAMPEPE: Ginam had to pray to ask for ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I missed that. I wonder if the interpreter could repeat what was said because we couldn't hear because of the reaction.

MR MBAMBO: I still remember that Ginam ...[indistinct] prayed to your ancestors to afford him the opportunity to kill you. After praying we stayed there hoping that you would come out so that we could shoot you because it was now in the evening. We waited there until sunrise the following day and we decided to leave. We went back to the station and Zwele went to the office, the IFP office.

We did not know where you stayed then and we could not locate you and that is why the IFP plotted your arrest at the time when Mrs Mbuaze's house was attacked. At time Bebe Biela and Mrs Mbuaze orchestrated a plan that Zazi should write a statement to give to the police about the attack Mrs Mbuaze's place and state that he personally saw you attack Mrs Mbuaze's household. That was the only way that would make it possible for you to be removed. They knew that you were the strongest ANC member because you had also been fired from Enseleni.

The statement that was written ended up with you being investigated and it became clear that we were not able to locate you because you came back to J2 but we could not see you. Those are the attempts that we made. That's the one attempt for example that I was involved in.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, do you know anything about the burning down of Mr Msome's house and the burning of his motor vehicle that he referred to?

MR MBAMBO: No, I know nothing about that.

MR MSOME: I would also like to ask another question. According to Mr Mbambo's knowledge, how much was the cooperation between them and the SAP, because at the time when I was arrested for the Mbuaze case the people who brought the warrant of arrest to arrest me were not the ZP but the detectives who were white, stationed at Empangeni. One of them was Sergeant Masser. These are the people who took me to eSikhawini. I just want to know, according to yourself, how much was the cooperation between the police of KwaZulu and the SAP?

Secondly, is it that - my arrest at the time, does it not involve your attempt to kill me because I was not called to the case to Court, I was only summoned to Court when a lawyer came and indicated that these people arrested me without any communication with you and you were not at the police station at the time. And therefore my appearance before the Court was delayed so that you could come back.

And that happened exactly as I was told, that I was not going to be called among those who were going to Court and this led me to making a lot of noise. Did you thereafter attempt to kill me?

MR MBAMBO: ...[No English translation]

Secondly, our communication and collaboration with the SAP was such that it was confined to the Special Branch of the SAP, not other units. Only the Special Branch came to Mrs Mbuaze and we would discuss the ANC.

MR MSOME: ...[No English translation] That my arrest on that day was not the first one?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

MR MSOME: Can you tell this Committee and the public of other instances?

MR MBAMBO: The other instances that I knew of was the time that you were found in possession of weapons and ammunition and IFP membership cards.

MR MSOME: I am speaking of a plot when my house and vehicle were burnt down. Instead of arresting the perpetrators I am the one who was arrested and it was alleged that I had weapons and guns on me but I am the one who ended up being arrested. I am asking if you have any knowledge if that was still a plot to remove me?

MR MBAMBO: I have no knowledge of that.

MR MSOME: Chairperson, I will return the Mbuaze case, whether it was one of the tricks because Ginam has indicated that they had skills of infiltrating their enemy. Maybe my arrest was one of their tricks that would have cause a division amongst us as ANC leaders. I say this because you wouldn't as an ordinary member of the public go and attack another person's house.

I can also say that this has caused some divisions amongst the ANC, I was not longer regarded as I was before within the ANC. It has caused problems for me.

MR MBAMBO: I know that what happened at Mrs Mbuaze's house was not intended to cause divisions between yourself and the ANC because we knew that what you were doing at the time was for the ANC. We knew that the people who had attacked Mrs Mbuaze's house were ANC members because Mrs Mbuaze was an enemy to the ANC but we did not know who the specific people were.

And because we had been looking for Bongani Msome and had been unsuccessful in getting him and because you Bongani, had been seen around with the boys, travelling in a white kombi when they attacked people it could be that you had knowledge about the attack on Mrs Mbuaze's house. We should just say that you were indeed seen at the scene and Zazi volunteered that he will write the statement. We in fact assumed that the ANC had attacked Mrs Mbuaze's house, we were not sure.

MR MSOME: Would I be wrong to say that people who attacked Mbuaze's house were IFP members?

MR MBAMBO: That information is incorrect, it was not the IFP.

MR MSOME: But you say that you are not certain that it is the ANC that had attacked Mrs Mbuaze's house and her house was in J2 and we knew that the ANC could not set foot, it was an IFP area. Then I wonder how the ANC could go to Mrs Mbuaze's house whilst people like you guarded the house at the time.

MR MBAMBO: If this indeed was a plot by the IFP so that you could be arrested, I would have known about it and maybe I could have been part of the group who would attack Mrs Mbuaze's house so that we could allege that it was you. So I knew it was definitely not the IFP that attacked Mrs Mbuaze's house but a group of unknown persons.

MR MSOME: Let me go back to the issue of my house being burnt. In Mr Mkhize's testimony he said that amongst these five police stations the hit squad that had operated amongst this station was yours and it was headed by Mr Nagam Mkhize. I want to know, how does it happen that if something had happened or occurred at Ntsalene and the person you worked with from Ntsalene was Joyful Mtetwa, did Joyful Mtetwa not tell you that he indeed was involved in the attack on my house? Because on one occasion 11 houses were burnt in Ntsalene and the police were present amongst the group of people that attacked those houses.

MR MBAMBO: But Joyful Mtetwa has never told me about this. There was a group of IFP youths who worked under Joyful Mtetwa which did not have anything to do with us. It could be that it is indeed those youths who attacked your house but Joyful never told us about it.

MR MSOME: What you are saying is that it could happen that Joyful had his own hit squad which he commanded from Ntsalene? As you said in your testimony that you received certain guns and weapons from Joyful, so it could happen that there was another hit squad commanded by Joyful?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR MSOME: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Msome. Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

Mr Mbambo, just to go back to the incident of the policeman who committed suicide, was his name Constable Madondo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct. We used to call him 4 x 4.

MR WILLS: The issue of your motor vehicles, you bought the VW Jetta for R4 000, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that the BMW you bought was for an amount of R38 000, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you paid for this by a deposit which you'd saved up, or just explain to us how you paid for it?

MR MBAMBO: I paid a deposit and then I thereafter paid instalments, monthly instalments.

MR WILLS: And was this through a financial institution?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now, Mr Hewit was asking you questions relating to your frequent or the fact that you spent so much time with Mrs Mbuaze. Can you explain as to why, or some of the reasons as to why you spent so much time with Mrs Mbuaze?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly, it was because I was a hit squad member. Secondly, because I resided near her home in J2. Thirdly, Mrs Mbuaze could not travel along to Empangeni and to the city, therefore if she wanted to go to town to pay her accounts and do her groceries, I would accompany her.

Other than that we also attended meetings together or sometimes I would drive her to Ulundi and fetch her from there or I would take her to Chief Nzuza's place or to Chief Machaba's place at Injuni.

MR WILLS: From your evidence it's clear that at least some of the time you spent with Mrs Mbuaze was to protect her, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that one of the specific instructions given to Mr Hlongwane was to be stationed at Bebe Biela's house for the specific purpose of guarding him?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And I take it that these two people would be happy with that arrangement? I mean Mrs Mbuaze and Mr Biela?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now the other thing is that Mrs Mbuaze lived in J2 Section, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR WILLS: This was the one area in eSikhawini which was IFP controlled?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now Mr Hewit also cross-examined you at reasonable length surrounding the issue of the meeting between Umvuyana and your information that he'd met with Mr Buthelezi in Ulundi, do you recall that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: And he indicated that all the information that you got from Umvuyana you related to hearsay from what he referred to as being: "a dead person", is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: I want to know - you make two allegations in your affidavit and in your viva voce evidence that I just want you to confirm, the one is, was it a fact that Umvuayna was given this permission, this position as Branch Commander of the firearms unit, and that can be established, in fact that's not hearsay?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And was it also a fact that he was issued this powder blue, I think you said, 4 x 4 vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct. It had a picture of a bull's horn on the sides of the doors.

MR WILLS: You actually saw this, this isn't just what you heard from somebody else?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I saw it.

MR WILLS: Now, I want to turn to the issue of Nati Gumede and if the Court will, sorry, if the Committee will bear with me, I want to refer again to that volume that - I think it's the 3rd volume, if we could just for ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just call it the documents.

MR WILLS: Thank you, the documents bundle, to page 37 and I want to - I don't think we have a spare copy, but I'm going to read something which I want you to confirm and listen to it carefully, whether or not this happened in the Court. And I'm reading from Judge van der Reijden's sentence, and it refers to the issue of you getting the car and the evidence concerning his assessment of what you got the car for, okay. And I quote:

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON:

MR WILLS: Sorry, thank you.

To continue:

Do you recall that as being a correct reflection of the Judge's sentence?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: Is it true in fact that this is what happened?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: So the Judge's finding in this regard was an accurate, an accurate assessment, he had uncovered what actually happened?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Now in answer to a certain question put to you by the Evidence Leader, Advocate Mpshe, I'm not sure if you understood the question clearly and I just want to clarify it. He asked you - and I can't remember the details of his question, about why you got involved in these killings and you said that it was for the sole reason or you conceded that it was for the sole reason of your hatred for the ANC. Was that what you wanted this Committee to understand?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR WILLS: Can you just briefly explain what were your reasons?

MR MBAMBO: What I was trying to explain was that I did this for the reason that I wanted to carry out the objectives of the IFP and I did this as a member of the hit squad instructed by the IFP leadership. I was trying to show that - I do not want to deny that I did hate the ANC from the time that I grew up until I became a KwaZulu policeman, but throughout my fighting with the UDF when we were still fighting using stones, I had never killed a UDF or ANC person until such time that I became involved in the hit squad's structure, working under the instruction of the IFP leadership and the KwaZulu Police.

That was the only time when I started killing people but I was not just killing them from personal hatred but from instruction from the IFP leadership. That is what I was trying to explain.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Members of the Committee, Mr Chairperson, that concludes my questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Moloi, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I would just like to clear one issue.

Mr Mbambo, correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding of a criminal investigation is that it's not easy to simply put aside and discard of a murder docket, am I correct?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MOLOI: And I also understand that it's going to be more difficult if we talk of multiple murder.

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MOLOI: You have mentioned here a number of instances where multiple murders were committed and you and the members of your squad were not charged.

MR MBAMBO: That is true.

MR MOLOI: Isn't it customary that the officers in the police force examine these dockets and see if proper investigation has been done and if there is the necessary follow-up on all those investigations?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that normally happens.

MR MOLOI: In these particular instances you mentioned, do you know if somebody else other than you as perpetrators were charged?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't know of any other person.

MR MOLOI: So, those dockets inasfar as you are concerned are still lying there unattended?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR MOLOI: Why would that happen if there are officers in the police force charged with the duty to follow up such instances? In this particular case, why would it happen?

MR MBAMBO: Because the person in charge of eSikhawini at the time was Brigadier Umzumela and he knew about these cases. Secondly, Major Mxunu in charge of the Riot Investigation Unit at eSikhawini was my commander and that was the unit that investigated political murders. He also knew about our operations, although I came to learn this when I got arrested for Sergeant Dlamini's murder. I didn't know that he also had knowledge, I only knew of Brigadier Umzumela.

When I got arrested for Sergeant Dlamini's murder that is when I learnt that he was also involved in these operations. So in that way I do not see how it could have been possible for the investigation of these murders to be successful if they were being investigated by a unit headed by a member of hit squads.

MR MOLOI: So is your answer, is it your answer that it was possible in these several instances you referred to here because the involvement of the officers in the police force?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: Had they not known, had they not known you as the hit squad was involved, would those dockets have been ignored?

MR MBAMBO: No, they would have been thoroughly investigated.

MR MOLOI: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moloi. Mr Motata, do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: Just two Mr Chairman, thank you.

Mr Mbambo, I just want to ask you two questions for clarification that I should understand perfectly in my mind. What you have told us is that your hit squad operations would be covert, did I understand you correctly?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And again we knew that Prince Gideon Zulu was in the upper hierarchy of the hit squads, would we regard him as well as a hit squad member because he belonged to this hierarchy?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Let's return to the rally of the 16th February 1992. Would I be correct to say the same was to take place during the day?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And you further testified that that was intended to wipe out the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: So your operations as the hit squads, would you carry then even covert, even during the day?

MR MBAMBO: On that particular day we would not be working but it would be Amabuto who would carry out these activities. It would be made to seem like the KwaZulu Police had lost control of the marches and that is how the destruction had come about.

ADV MOTATA: Now, would the Prince, that is Gideon Zulu, carrying a 303, would that still give the public that impression that it is the Amabuto who would have gone out of control when a Prince of that nature and respected be seen with such a weapon in his possession?

MR MBAMBO: I think he became very emotional and therefore could not control himself when he wanted to fight back at the time. I was forced to hold him down because of the shots that were being fired from Sonebelo Hostel.

ADV MOTATA: At the point of disembarkment you mentioned that there was a concern or complaint by the ANC people who met you and said this is potential conflict, do you recall you saying so?

MR MBAMBO: ...[No English translation]

ADV MOTATA: When the - for instance, when the IFP people alighted from the buses and had to undertake this long march, you recall?

MR MBAMBO: I do.

ADV MOTATA: That there was a warning that this is a potential conflict situation?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

ADV MOTATA: Because Prince Zulu, as I understand you, was present, was there a word of advice to him that the ANC for instance has shown this concern?

MR MBAMBO: No, nobody told him that because the ANC leaders spoke to Brigadier Umzumela and other officers who were in a police casspir. They laid this complaint with Brigadier Umzumela and he appeared as a person who was going to try and fix the situation but he did not do anything about it.

ADV MOTATA: Let's return to your incarceration. In short, the understanding I have is that the IFP has washed it's hands of you people, you and your co-applicants, would I be interpreting you correctly?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct, even though the IFP tries to pretend as if they have not abandoned us because in public they speak of us as criminals but they send their leaders to the Westville Prison to talk to us and discuss the situation. We view this a mock of our intelligence because we realise that they have abandoned us although they deny this when they meet with us. Therefore I agree with you that in our view the IFP has abandoned us.

ADV MOTATA: And again when Doctor Sipho Umzumela spoke to you and said: "Look we are not interested in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission because that is a creation of the ANC, you nevertheless went ahead and lodged your applications with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And again you find that they speak words of referring to you as criminals, that must be hurting?

MR MBAMBO: That hurts very much.

ADV MOTATA: But from a question here which puzzles me Mr Mbambo, is that you still despite all that regard yourself as a member of the IFP despite all what has occurred or obtained, you still regard yourself as a member of the IFP.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct. I have intentions of creating reconciliation between the ANC and the IFP. I know the workings of the IFP in and out and therefore I and my co-applicants and others are in a position to create this reconciliation between ANC and IFP members because we speak with one voice on matters that have we have experienced.

If I were to leave the IFP now I would not be able to persuade other IFP members, to persuade them to reconcile with the ANC. If I were to leave the IFP I would regard it as an enemy, therefore I wouldn't be able to persuade them. Therefore if I do not leave the Party I will be able to work with them as brothers and we will be able to create this reconciliation between the parties. That is the reason.

I am not a member of the IFP just because I have intentions of fulfilling the objectives of the IFP but I intend using the powers that I have. To use such powers to create peace between the ANC and the IFP, that is my main objective.

ADV MOTATA: Let's imagine a situation here Mr Mbambo, that with you appearing before us you have the belief that you may get amnesty, that should you get this amnesty would you find a home within the IFP? If you get out of jail, would you find a home, a warm reception other than the reconciliatory work you are doing in prison between the members of the ANC and the IFP who are incarcerated?

MR MBAMBO: Within the IFP I know I am regarded as an enemy and right now as I am speaking here I know that they are very angry with me but I also know that there are certain leaders within the IFP whose names I have implicated here. They are angry as well that the IFP has abandoned us now after having done so much for their organisation.

I am saying this with the knowledge that within the IFP leadership at the moment there is a division. They do not seem to see things the same way because there are leaders such as Doctor Ben Mgubane, Doctor Frank Mjolse, Doctor Ziba Djiane, who are diplomats, people who are apposed to violence and people who did not know anything about this operation.

But there were also warlords, Chief Mataba and others who knew about these covert operations and right now they are busy with Doctor Frank Mjolse to try and build up this movement whereas others were undermining the movement and that creates a conflict and because of that I know there is a division. Some will definitely receive warm heatedly. I am therefore not(?) prepared to go back. My intention is to reconcile the ANC and the IFP.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbambo. Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry could you just keep quiet please. Mrs Khampepe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mbambo, you have testified that some time in 1992 you were given orders by Mrs Mbuaze to train a large number of young persons with a view of enabling them to engage in veracious attacks on ANC members and ANC areas. My question is, to your knowledge then as a member, as an ordinary member of your hit squad, did you think that the local leadership had authority to give you such orders?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Why did you think that they had such authority? Can you explain to us?

MR MBAMBO: The local leadership had authority to all the hit squad members based here at eSikhawini because we were working under them and they were the ones who knew everybody who were enemies within the ANC and therefore we would not have followed the instructions following the leadership's wishes. What information they gathered about the ANC in eSikhawini and the surrounding areas was received from the local leadership so that they received this information knowing that it comes directly from this leadership. The BSI itself used this information from the same leadership therefore they had, yes indeed, authority to give us such instructions.

MS KHAMPEPE: But I thought in the evidence led by your commander, Mr Mkhize and also the Commander in Chief of the paramilitary wing of the IFP, the authority that both the local leadership and the national leadership which we have been referring to here as the hierarchy of the IFP, the authority which they had was to identify specific targets for elimination as well as giving you instructions to engage in indiscriminate attacks on ANC people but not to train a group of young persons with a view of attacking other people.

MR MBAMBO: They had such authority. For example, even though they were leaders at the local level, people such as Mr Mbuaze who was a member of the Central Committee of the IFP, that was a very big structure within the IFP and within the national, at the national level.

She was not only a leader at the local level but she was also a leader nationally because she was a member of the Central Committee of the IFP and we also have Chief Matabe and Mr Suba Buthelezi. They were members of the KwaZulu Legislature, that gave them the authority to be provincial leaders in all these areas referred to and by so doing they featured within the hierarchy at Ulundi, they did not end up at the local level.

And you also had others such as ...[indistinct] the Councillors and G M Mkhize, Bebe Biela whom I can refer to as having had a limited authority at local level.

MS KHAMPEPE: This group of young persons that you trained, what were the average ages of such children, if they were children? They've been referred to as youths.

MR MBAMBO: None of them except for Mbambo from Port Dunford, he was older than ourselves but the rest of them, Habit Sithole was also older, they rages between 18, 16 and 20 years.

MS KHAMPEPE: And Mr Siabonga Mbuaze, how old was he?

MR MBAMBO: He was - according to my knowledge, he was above 21 but his age was restricted. He would restrict himself to 16 and 18 so that he remained a minor in the event of his arrest. He would use ages such as 16 because he had this small body structure.

MS KHAMPEPE: And was he the eldest of the Mbuaze brothers?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hewit has questioned you extensively with regard to the circumstances under which Sergeant Dlamini was killed and I would like to invite your comment on the reason which was advanced by Mr X during your criminal trial, if you recall that Mr X gave evidence and advanced a reason which is different from the one that you've testified to during these proceedings. I think it appears on page 22, paginated page 22 of the documents bundle. And the reason that he advanced was that you stated that you were tired of Sergeant Dlamini and that's why he should be killed. May I invite your comment on the reason which was stated by Mr X?

MR MBAMBO: I cannot remember whether I said that or not.

MS KHAMPEPE: No, that was not said by you, that reason was advanced by Mr X at your criminal ...[end of tape]

MR WILLS: ...[inaudible] permission. This person's name has been disclosed at this hearing, possibly we could use that name, it might refresh. Yes, that is, I think his name is Sergeant Mtetwa, Constable Mtetwa.

MS KHAMPEPE: That's right. I think it's a Constable Mr Wills, not Sergeant.

Mr Mbambo, you will recall that he was also part of the group which participated in the elimination of Sergeant Dlamini and this is the reason that he advanced to the Court for his elimination.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct. Yes, we were together but I did not say that I was tired of Sergeant Dlamini.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was Sergeant Mtetwa then not telling the truth when he stated that that's what, these are the words that you uttered?

MR MBAMBO: He was not telling the truth, he was trying to run away from the fact that he was a member of the hit squad and that he was present out of his own will. And he indicated that he was forced by Nagam Mkhize to accompany us.

MS KHAMPEPE: No, in your evidence you've stated that there was an occasion when you gave instructions for certain operations to be committed whilst Mr Mkhize was away, I think he was in Dundee on sick leave.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct, I did explain that operation.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you given permission by Mr Mkhize to give such instructions for the conduct of those operations since you were not the commander, that he had been appointed as the commander?

MR MBAMBO: I did not issue any instruction myself as commander but you will remember that Mr Xele who was working at Ulundi, he would often during weekends he would bring this white Mitsubishi, a minibus from Chief Minister's office, to use it on attacking the ANC. Even though Ginam was not there, that did not stop, it continued happening. That is what I was trying to explain.

MS KHAMPEPE: So you are in other words saying that that was the standing practice of your operation, that's how you operated and there was nothing new that you had put into effect by proceeding with the operations when the kombi was brought to you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: I think I only had one question which I wanted to ask which has already been dealt with by Mr Hewit, with regard to the reference to the Chief Minister in that regard. I wanted to find out, when you give your evidence with regard to the purpose for which the kombi was brought to you by Mr Xele, are you suggesting that the Chief Minister was in fact aware of the objective of which the transport was being provided to your hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is how he introduced himself to us, that is the case.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did he in fact explain to you that the Chief Minister was aware of the specific objective for which the transport had been provided to your hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Yes, just one question.

Mr Mbambo, I want to refer you again to the documents bundle, page 41 and I want you to confirm again whether the Judge's finding in this regard was correct and it refers specifically to Committee Member, Mrs Khampepe's questioning as regards the motivation for the killing of Sergeant Dlamini. And I quote at line 15:

Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And again, is that a case where the Judge actually made a finding as to what happened in reality?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, I have a couple of questions which arise strictly speaking more out of the cross-examination of one of my learned friends, save that it's important - it's very brief, but it's important to the admissibility of certain evidence which will be dealt with of course in argument in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: As long as it's very brief because we've got to bring an end to the questioning otherwise we will continue ...[intervention]

MR STEWART: I'm conscious of that, thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mbambo, was it ever your experience that Mr Umvuyana misled you or lied to you in connection with how, his relationship with important people?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR STEWART: Did he ever give you cause to disbelieve him because he was perhaps trying to be self important?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit?

MR HEWIT: Certainly not arising out of those questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kladla?

MR KLADLA: No, I do not have any questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbambo, you may stand down.

MR WILLS: ...[inaudible] that the case because I'm ready to proceed with Hlongwane if the Committee wishes?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] now to take a break. If we could start now and we will go through to four because if we take a break it will probably be too short to recommence.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, I call Mr Hlongwane.

MR HLONGWANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Mr Wills?

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Hlongwane, you are known by a number of names, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you start, it's just been pointed out to me his name is spelt differently on occasions in the record.

ADV MOTATA: If you have regard to page 127, it's spelt with an N-I and if you have regard to page 130, it's spelt with an N-E. We would want to know what is the correct spelling of his name, his surname rather.

MR WILLS: Possibly you can help us, how do you spell your surname Mr Hlongwane?

MR HLONGWANE: Which name?

CHAIRPERSON: Hlongwane. Has it got an E on the end or an I on the end?

MR HLONGWANE: It has an E.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Committee Member, that is my mistake, that is my handwriting on that application.

Mr Hlongwane, you are known by a number of names, is that not so? One of them for example is Sadam, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you're also known as Njoni, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: You're also known as Hlelangla Langa, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you made an application for amnesty which commences at page 127 of the record and you attached to that application form a lengthy affidavit which runs from page 130 to page 202 of the record. Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And to the best of your knowledge and to the best of your recollection, are the averments contained therein correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: I want to turn now to page 130 of the record to commence your affidavit. You're a convicted ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he has a copy of the affidavit before him Mr Wills. Yes, Mr Wills you can proceed.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

Have you got the front page of your affidavit, it's page 130?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He's now getting swamped with affidavits.

MR WILLS: Okay, you've got that affidavit. Is it not correct that you are a convicted prisoner also being held in Westville Prison in KwaZulu Natal, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it also not your averment that you are or were an assassin working for the Inkatha Freedom Party, your mandate was to kill political opponents of the IFP?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, you don't have to read everything. If I want you to read something in your affidavit I will refer you to it but if you want to refer to it on your behalf just indicate that to me. I'm not expecting you to read everything and I'm certainly not going to trick you with any questions of that nature. Just relax, listen to my questions and answer them.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I understand.

MR WILLS: Right. You say that - and now I do want to refer you to paragraph 3, that essentially you say there that this affidavit concerns a lot of information, that had you not given this information nobody would have known about it at any stage, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that includes a great deal of information about matters which you haven't been charged for in any way whatsoever, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now I want to start on page 3 of your affidavit, page 132 of the record, paragraph 8, when you joined the IFP in Mpumalanga. You were born in 1968, you grew up in Mpumalanga and you just had a normal schooling and left school after standard six and at that stage you weren't very concerned with politics, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Would you please give Mr Hlongwane an opportunity to state his case so that if you do not understand please do not make your own noise because this interferes with our proceedings. We will try our best that Mr Hlongwane should speak a little louder so that everybody within the hall should hear him.

MR HLONGWANE: I will try.

MR WILLS: Okay. What political party did your parents belong to?

MR HLONGWANE: They were members of Inkatha here in ...[indistinct] eSizwe.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now you describe that your own entry into active politics occurred as a result of a person by the name of Stembiso Ndlovo who came to you and he wanted to know why Inkatha supporters were coming to your house, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Would you please repeat your question?

MR WILLS: You indicated that your entry into politics was as a result of an approach by one Stembiso Ndlovo who wanted to know why Incatha people were visiting your house in Mpumalanga.

MR HLONGWANE: They did not come to my house, they were asking me about what was happening at home. Sakele Langa was my cousin, he often came to my home to visit us and one day as I came from work I came across Stembiso Ndlovo and he asked me and he wanted to know that because I indicated to him that I was not a member of any organisation what these members of Inkatha wanted and I indicated to him that I was not Hlongwane but I was Hlongwane's son and I had no authority as to who came to pay us any visit.

MR WILLS: That's right. And then you approached Zakele Nkethle in regard to this incident, is that ...[intervention]

MS KHAMPEPE: Not Nkethle Mr Wills, you must be getting tired. I think it's Zakele Langa and I think Mr Stembiso Ndlovo you referred to is not his cousin, that's his neighbour. I must be getting tired Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you Miss Committee Member.

Just to repeat that questions, eventually - you were obviously concerned about this approach that Stembiso Ndlovo had made to you and so eventually you went to Zakele Nkethle in order to discuss this with him, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And why did you go to this person?

MR HLONGWANE: I did because I had spoken to my cousin and my cousin had told me that they would not help me unless I was a member of Inkatha.

MR WILLS: And why did you need help?

MR HLONGWANE: At that time there was already fighting between the UDF and Inkatha although there wasn't shooting between these two parties. There was an organisation that had been launched, HIKO. This organisation prevented school children from being hit.

MR WILLS: Okay, so am I correct in assuming that because this Thembiso Ndlovo who was known to be a UDF person had approached you in this manner, you felt threatened, you felt a fear that you were going to be attacked?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is the truth.

MR WILLS: And you went to Nkethle, Zukele Nkethle for protection?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I went to Zukele Nkethle who was a Central Committee member of the Inkatha.

MR WILLS: And what did he say to you?

MR HLONGWANE: Zukele said he would not be able to help me unless I joined the IFP as they did not render assistance to non-IFP members.

MR WILLS: And did this result in you paying your R1-50 and joining the IFP?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, before this period - and you recall this as to be sometime during 1985, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, although I cannot remember the dates correctly but I think it was in 1985.

MR WILLS: Before this event, when you approached Mr Nkethle, you had not been involved in any crimes whatsoever, is that correct, or any of the political violence?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now what happened when you became a member of the IFP in that area?

MR HLONGWANE: I started getting involved within the IFP, that's when they attacked my house and I could not even go out to the shops. That is when we started fighting, stabbing each other and burning each other's houses down.

MR WILLS: When you say: "each other", am I to assume you were fighting with the IFP against the UDF?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you say, and you use the words in your affidavit, you say: "you had to participate in the activities of the IFP failing which you would considered an enemy"

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you also say that you regarded the UDF as the enemy, is that correct? I'm not talking about the IFP generally, I'm referring to your own state of mind after you had joined the IFP.

MR HLONGWANE: It was not just me, everyone in my family regarded the UDF as the enemy. My parents also told us the UDF was not a good organisation because at that time the UDF had already started stopping people from going to the shops, they used violence. And at that time our parents, my father at the time was a Xonda and the UDF was against Xondas.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Hlongwane, if you can just remember to slow down because the Committee Members are writing things down, just talk slowly. What is a Xonda?

MR HLONGWANE: Xonda were those people who worked as police like the security guards but were not professional.

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please be quiet.

MR HLONGWANE: At that time if a girl wore pants she would be beaten. If they found a male and woman together, they will be beaten. They would also guard the streets. That was my father's duty. One day Samsa told me that I was arrogant like my father, that's where the conflict started.

MR WILLS: Am I to understand that your father was a traditional, a person who believed in the traditional values of Zulu culture very firmly?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you say in your affidavit that in these early days there was intense fighting between the youths, the UDF and the ANC youths, and that there were no firearms that were used, is that correct? In the early days?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is the truth.

MR WILLS: And so you fought with knives?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, knives and stones.

MR WILLS: Now you also say that your basic job in Mpumalanga was to rid the township of UDF members.

MR HLONGWANE: Not only in the township, there is Summersdale and Georgedale. At that time there were four sections in the township and then there was Bopele and Georgedale. We would attack every boy in that area for the reason that they were supposed to be IFP. If they did not attend meetings we would attack everybody. If maybe children from a particular household did not attend a meeting we would attack everybody in the house or if there was no-one in the house we would attack the house itself and maybe burn it down.

MR WILLS: Now who told you to do this? Did anybody tell you to do this or did you decide to do this on your own?

MR HLONGWANE: We would be instructed on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We named Nkethle's house Las Vegas, the Central Committee Member.

MR WILLS: Sorry, when you say you meet at his house - first of all Mr Hlongwane, you don't have to talk very close to the microphone. If you talk close to the microphone it creates distortion. You can keep your head far away and it will pick up your voice. And also I must remind you again to slow down. If we have to sit here all day tomorrow to take your evidence that's fine, we're in no hurry. Do you understand?

MR HLONGWANE: I will apologise because I am not able to speak slowly.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the pace that he's being going at has not been too bad Mr Wills, we can cope with it.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

Okay. Now you mentioned that you met at somebody's house on Tuesdays and Thursdays, whose house was this?

MR HLONGWANE: Zakele Nkethle's house who was a Central

Committee Member and he was also a Councillor at Ward 10.

MR WILLS: Now you also say that eventually because of your - the fact that you were loyal and brave you were put in charge of a group of persons, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is so. I was in charge of a group of Telewene.

MR WILLS: Now you name the people in paragraph 15 of your affidavit as being the persons who you were in charge of, do you confirm that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: I'm not going to go into the details of that at this hearing, I will do that when the people from Mpumalanga are present in the gallery.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: I want you to refer to paragraph 17 of your affidavit where you say that all of these Inkatha groups were formed with a specific purpose, what was that purpose?

MR HLONGWANE: Will you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS: I say - okay, you speak in your affidavit of three Inkatha groups that were formed in Mpumalanga area, you speak of your own group or the group that was - sorry, Zakele Nkethle's group, you speak of Mrs Khulu's group and you speak Villa Nkuna's group, okay?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now what was the purpose of these groups, what did they want to do?

MR HLONGWANE: It was to fight the UDF and to kill the UDF.

MR WILLS: Now you say that you had meetings and you also had camps, what happened at these camps?

MR HLONGWANE: We were taught about Inkatha and the dangers of the ANC returning to the country. Zakele Nkethle used to tell us that if the ANC returned we would never have our women and they would also take our houses, cars and if you were a shop owner they would take everything.

MR WILLS: And how did that make you feel?

MR HLONGWANE: I was very angry. I was very angry that a person can just come and grab my belongings without permission, that was the reason why I hated the UDF.

MR WILLS: You also indicate that you received assistance from the KwaZulu Police in these operations and you refer to two persons, particularly you refer to one person, Jabulani Makatini and another person whom you recall as a policeman by the name of Kaluse, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Those are the persons that you can remember?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: When you say the KwaZulu Police helped you, what do you mean?

MR HLONGWANE: There were police who were known in the township as Amakesi and they used to travel an NO kombi. When the fighting intensified between the Inkatha and UDF they helped by giving us ammunition. That was the assistance that they gave us. And they would also inform us of the whereabouts of our opponents.

MR WILLS: Yes. And you say that you yourself personally received ammunition from Jabulani Makatini who is a KwaZulu policeman, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: It wasn't only the KwaZulu Police that helped you, it was also the South African Police, is that not correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, there was van Vuuren and Steenkamp. Van Vuuren was a Warrant Officer and the other one was a Sergeant at the time.

MR WILLS: How did they help you?

MR HLONGWANE: They did not help me personally but they helped the IFP. If we were to attack or maybe if somebody was going to be arrested they would tell us that this person was going to be arrested and they will inform us of when that person would return. If that person did not return, a Central Committee member would be informed and that person would have to be fetched. They reported to us. I forgot to mention Smith who was a Station Commander at Hammersdale. Before a person was arrested we would sit down at Las Vegas, Zakele Nkethle's house and discuss whether this person should indeed be arrested when he would receive bail. That is the kind of assistance that they gave us.

MR WILLS: And did they do anything in regard to firearms or ammuntion?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, we did not have ammunition, we would get this from them.

MR WILLS: Now, you confirm that on one occasion the Riot Unit from Pretoria was once brought to work in Hammersdale and these policemen even visited you. I refer to the top of page 10 which is paragraph 18, it's quite a long paragraph.

MR HLONGWANE: Page 10?

MR WILLS: Page 139 of the record and at the top of the page.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now you'd been operating for a while when you say that Madla Nduna came to Hammersdale, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you give the Committee Members an idea of how long you'd been operating in this position as an Inkatha Youth Member attacking the UDF before Madla Nduna came?

MR HLONGWANE: If I'm not mistaken I think Madla Nduna arrived in '86 or '87 and I started working in 1984.

MR WILLS: So you'd been operating already by this stage, for a period of three years as an active IFP Youth Member who attacked the UDF, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct, we did so.

MR WILLS: Now, my understanding of this violence is that it was extremely intense violence with extremely close and intense fighting, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now again in paragraph 20 you mentioned certain incidents that you were involved in in Hammersdale. I'm not going to concern ourselves with that at his hearing, we'll talk about that when we go to Hammersdale, okay?

MR HLONGWANE: Okay, I understand.

MR WILLS: I want to turn to paragraph 22 where you indicate that you were recruited as a South African Police Special Constable, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you say you just deserted your job at Glacier Bearings because Nketle told you that you could get a job with the Inkatha people, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you didn't even pick up your pay from Glacier Bearings, you just left there and there and immediately went to the police station to fill in the application forms, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now were there UDF members with you filling in application forms for this position which was for special training as Constables?

MR HLONGWANE: A UDF member would have been killed on the spot. It was only IFP members who were recruited and not UDF members because our intention was to come back and kill the same UDF people.

MR WILLS: Now you indicate that at that stage you met a couple of the Caprivi trainees and you list them in paragraph 25 at page 142, but I want to concentrate on the actual training you received. You indicate that you were eventually taken from Pietermartizburg and you did some training at the Koeberg in the Cape, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that that was - that you also saw Mr Mkhize at this training?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now what did the SAP members train you as regards the attitude towards the ANC or the UDF at this Koeberg training?

MR HLONGWANE: The training that I received involved training on shot gun and 9mm pistols. What they used to tell us, that on our return we were going to kill the UDF.

MR WILLS: Is this the South African Police trainers at Koeberg?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, the white policemen.

MR WILLS: You trained for about six weeks in Koeberg and you then were deployed for a time in Maritzburg under the immediate command of a person, Warrant Officer Penz, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: I'm referring to the bottom of page - now again I'm not going to deal with the incident that occurred in Maritzburg so I am going to move right now from page 145 to just an incident in, to page 147, okay? Have you got page 147?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now you indicate that a certain policeman there assisted you in avoiding arrest, is that correct? Can you just briefly explain to the Committee Members and the public who this policeman was?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Warrant Officer van Vuuren.

MR WILLS: And how did he assist you evading arrest?

MR HLONGWANE: I was supposed to go on duty at 10, I did not do so. He arrived at 6 o'clock, we called him Mr Six Eleven. He hooted outside and told me that I was wanted by the police, that I should leave the area. I went to Zakele and talked to him and thereafter I was taken to Ulundi.

MR WILLS: So basically what you're saying is this Mr van Vuuren was stationed at the Hammersdale Police Station, is that correct? So he drove all the way to Pietermartizburg where you were stationed to give you this warning, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: He worked at Hammersdale.

MR WILLS: No, I know van Vuuren worked at Hammersdale but when he gave you this information, where were you at that time when he spoke to you?

MR HLONGWANE: I think I made a mistake somewhere. At about 10 in the evening I went into the house together with Mundi and after posting, a telephone call came in and it was van Vuuren on the line and he said I should not go on duty because I was wanted by the police. I was in Pietermaritzburg at the time and the following morning I went to Hammersdale and he told me that they were going to fix my case, thereafter I went to Mr Zakele Nkethle.

On arriving there I was given money and I went to Ulundi to Mr M Z Khumalo. And on arriving at Ulundi Mr Khumalo said he had already heard about me and he said I had done a good job and he told me to stay at his house. After supper on that day I was given a place to sleep. I was given ...[intervention]

MR WILLS: Sorry, this person - I might have missed something, the person you went to in Ulundi, who was this person?

MR HLONGWANE: Mr M Z Khumalo.

MR WILLS: Yes. And did he arrange eventually for you to go into hiding at a camp which has been referred to by Mr Luthuli and that was the Makuzi Camp?

MR HLONGWANE: I was taken by car to Makuzi Camp. I was with Mr Biela. Mr Khumalo's son stopped us and said all major routes were closed and we returned to Ulundi and Mr Luthuli took me himself thereafter to Makuzi.

MR WILLS: And were the roads blocked? What was the reason for the roads being blocked?

MR HLONGWANE: Police wanted to arrest us but at the same time they were communicating telephonically with M Z Khumalo.

MR WILLS: So in other words what you're saying, what you've said in affidavit is, the South African Police were wanting to arrest you?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And that these persons assisted you in evading that arrest?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they did.

MR WILLS: I want you now to turn to page 165 - sorry, and just very briefly there, you indicate there that you had been operating in Ermelo and then you got instructions to move to somewhere else, who gave you these instructions and where were you told to move to?

MR HLONGWANE: From Ermelo Madla Nduna telephoned me that he needed me at eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, before you left Ermelo - and I refer you to page 167 of your affidavit, you and some other people received other training by the SANDF, by the SADF should I say, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And who told you to go on this training?

MR HLONGWANE: M Z Khumalo.

MR WILLS: And now - where was this training?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't remember correctly because we travelled around a lot.

MR WILLS: Now again, in the second lot of training that you received - and please refer to your, I want you to refer to page 167 and paragraph 96, it might refresh your memory. Can you see paragraph 96?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: Was this training in the Ulundi area, not far from Ulundi?

MR HLONGWANE: We went to Ulundi and from there we were transported by bus to a destination in the Northern direction.

MR WILLS: Now again, the people that were trained in this particular, on this particular occasion, were they all members of the same organisation?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And what organisation was that?

MR HLONGWANE: The Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR WILLS: And now you say that at this training you were trained by some white SADF members, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that you were trained in the use of AK47's, Uzzi machine guns, shotguns, G3 assault rifles and F1 and RDG5 handgrenades?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: And you say at page 169 of your affidavit - can you look at paragraph 103, page 169?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Have you got that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now what was the purpose of this training?

 MR HLONGWANE: It was to protect IFP or areas that were controlled by Chiefs, as well as to kill the ANC. There would also be an election in 1994. At that time we were supposed to block the routes along to Tugela and kill those who were going to the election.

MR WILLS: Now you say that there were certain people in charge of you, the Commandant of the base and I refer you to Page 170 below the list of names - you say that the Commandant of this base was Mr Luthuli. Is that right? And then there was a Mr Powell, Mr Philip Powell was second-in-charge. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. The person in charge was Philip Powell and Mdlanduna was his assistant.

MR WILLS: Now you say that at the end of this training, you were called the Self Protection Unit. Is that right? The SPU.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you were addressed at the end of this training by Mr C J Mtetwe. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: We were in fact expecting Chief Mangasuthu Buthelezi but on that morning we were told that he had a trip to undertake, therefore Mr Mtetwe was the one who came to address us in fact.

MR WILLS: And what did he say to you?

MR HLONGWANE: He thanked us and said that the chief Minister was also grateful that we were heroes.

MR WILLS: And what did he say you were going to do?

MR HLONGWANE: He said we will return to our areas to wait there. We would be killing the ANC, and at the training we were trained on how to attack and penetrate. So he was grateful for all of this.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Mr Chairperson, I see its 16h00.

CHAIRMAN: Would this be a convenient time to adjourn for the day, Mr Wills? Yes, thank you. We have again come to the end of proceedings. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 09h30.

CHAIRMAN: Good morning everybody. Yesterday Mr Hlongwane was or had commenced giving his evidence in chief, and Mr Wills are you ready to proceed with Mr Hlongwane's evidence?

I N HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson and Committee. Mr Hlongwane can you hear me?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: You will recall yesterday we were ... just got to the point where you arrived at eSikhawini. I'm proceeding for the record, I mean for the benefit of members of the Committee. I'll be proceeding from page 171 of the record and also at this stage I would just like to re-emphasise, in case there is any misunderstanding, that through an agreement with the Evidence Leader, I have purposely left out incidents which occurred in areas other than Northern Natal as one, the victims of those incidents aren't here and secondly, there has been some complications as regards advising those victims of these hearings; and it obviously is our intention to lead that evidence at a later and appropriate date.

CHAIRMAN: Yes we understand that Mr Wills, thank you.

MR WILLS: Right, your primary purpose initially to - when you were sent to eSikhawini was to guard B B Biela. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: And that you were stationed at his house and you lived with him for a long period of time. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: And then later you moved to Romeo's house. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you were also told by Mdlanduna that sometime a person, whose code name was `No Touch' was going to come and see you. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: And who is this person `No Touch'?

MR HLONGWANE: Brian Mkhize.

MR WILLS: And did this person in fact arrive?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes he did arrive.

MR WILLS: And what did Mdlanduna tell you about this person?

MR HLONGWANE: Mdlanduna had told me that when Maduna arrived, he will tell me about the activities or about a job about killing people here at eSikhawini, and I would also be under Maduna's command.

MR WILLS: And essentially that's in fact what happened, not so?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is what happened.

MR WILLS: Now there has been talk in the earlier evidence from all the three previous Applicants, about various meetings that took place from time-to-time, between sometimes with the local leadership, sometimes with the hierarchy in Ulundi. Now did you participate in these meetings?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I will be present but my task will be guarding the place or and their cars, but I will not be inside the room where the meeting was held. I will be just guarding outside.

MR WILLS: So, I mean in other words you were not an active participant in the meetings. You trusted that what was happening in the meetings ... well you had no participation in the actual meetings themselves. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: No I did not have a role to play in the meetings as such.

MR WILLS: What was your role?

MR HLONGWANE: It was to eliminate IFP enemies.

MR WILLS: Now moving to paragraph 111, you described in some detail the attack on the IFP Rally and this attack is through your paragraph 111 and 112. Just to emphasise the gravity of that incident, I see that you say that this fighting essentially went on the whole day. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: And you say many people from both the ANC and the IFP were killed and injured on that day?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: You also say that you, yourself, didn't kill anybody that day?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I did not.

MR WILLS: Now you go on, on paragraph 113 to talk of a meeting at Hlanganane Hall. This is one of these incidents where you were guarding those persons meeting at the hall. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: But you confirm that paragraph 113 and this for the convenience of the Committee members, is the meeting that's been referred to earlier as regards the instructions to take some... to identify targets. You confirm at that meeting, to the best of your knowledge, that the persons who were present were B B Biela, Mrs Mbuyazi, Chief Motaba, Kina Mkhize, Romeo Mbamba, Mr Nzuza and Zwele Dlamini?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: You also indicated that at that - from your knowledge of that meeting, that certain people were identified and that those people who were identified to be killed were those people you have listed in paragraph 115, Vincent Mkhwanazi, Sietla Makatini, Jerome Zabani and Themba Mmbasa.

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And you say that after the meeting ended, you recall some discussion and complaint about vehicles. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: What was that complaint?

MR HLONGWANE: We were complaining that we didn't have a car to use on these attacks on the ANC.

MR WILLS: Yes and then after the meeting, where did you go? Can you remember?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't remember where we went.

MR WILLS: Well just to refer, you say at the top of page 46 the end of paragraph 116 that the meeting ended and I went back to my post at the Mayor's house. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's how it happened.

MR WILLS: Now we've heard - I'm turning now to this incident where there were - there was a car that was attacked outside the Hlanganane Hall and do you recall that incident to have occurred some time in March 1992, and this is the incident where certain people, certain IFP people who you've called the Mznkabi were from Johannesburg, were present. Can you tell the Committee about that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. Those people had been brought by Themba Khoza because there was a person who had died. Therefore, their duty at eSikhawini was to retaliate the death of that person. So they were going to attack around eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Yes. Did Themba Khoza actually come to eSikhawini with these people, or did he just send them, to the best of your recollection?

MR HLONGWANE: As far as I know, Themba Khoza spoke to Ngubane first and thereafter Ngubane told me that there were people who were going to arrive from Johannesburg, whom I was supposed to show all houses. The reason I was chosen to go around the area was because I looked like them. I used to wear their T-shirts - go to the areas where there are shebeens and I was shopping at their shops, going around Thokozeni and I was wearing an ANC T-shirt. So I was asked to move around with these people from Johannesburg, because I knew the area well. I was not supposed to work with them in attacking, but I was just supposed to identify targets for them. I did this.

MR WILLS: And who told you to do that?

MR HLONGWANE: Mgubaye did.

MR WILLS: Ya. Now ...

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, is that Mrs Mbuyazi?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it's Miss Mbuyazi.

MR WILLS: Okay, there was a meeting that was called at Hlanganane Hall where these people were, and you all met there. You say in your Affidavit in para 117 that you all camped there, at Hlanganane Hall that night, where Mrs Mbuyazi was in charge of all of you. Can you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now there was an incident where the people were burned in this car. Can you just relate to the Committee the circumstances surrounding that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Mgubaye was there and Mr Hlela as well, and the local leadership of eSikhawini, and there were other IFP members. The people from Johannesburg were outside. A person, one of the people from Johannesburg called Zhondi, said to me: Sadam, a car has just parked outside. On going outside, I saw the car outside and Biyela and Mrs Mbuyazi were on their stomachs. I drew my pistol and Demandi, who was with the people from Johannesburg, said to me we should go to the car. As we approached the car, I started firing shots and the people from Johannesburg were not very accurate in their shooting, so they were just shooting at random. I retreated and the people from Johannesburg proceeded shooting at the car, until they eventually arrived in front of the car. They used all their ammunition. On arriving at the car they said ...(indistinct) and we were looking on and then they burned the car. Thereafter they went back into the hall, and Mrs Mbuyazi was very pleased about this.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, how many people from Johannesburg were their there?

MR HLONGWANE: About 6 or 5.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, it seems to me that we are only getting some of the interpretation. Of course, I appreciate the interpretation is very difficult but particularly perhaps when Mr Hlongwane speaks quickly, but in that incident, I would estimate we got 50-60% of the interpretation, and bits that we didn't get. I don't know how we can resolve that?

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, are you saying that all of us got 50 or 60%, or is there something wrong with your particular machine?

MR WILLS: No, no, this is a general problem yes.

CHAIRMAN: General translation. Perhaps Mr Hlongwane, when you are relating incidents, it was said to you yesterday if you could perhaps speak a little bit slower to give the interpreters an opportunity to give a full interpretation. They've got a very difficult job to perform, because they've got to interpret as fast as you speak, so obviously the faster you speak, the more difficult it is for them. So if you could just bear them in mind when you are testifying. I don't know if you want to repeat that incident.

MR WILLS: No thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: I can repeat.

MR WILLS: There are certain - Mr Hlongwane just wait for me please. I will draw certain incidents out via examination. Mr Hlongwane, possibly a good idea is when you are telling a story you must tell it in small bits. Say a few sentences and then wait and let the interpreters translate, and then continue, okay. What I want to ask about that incident is, you mention something about you seen Mrs Mbuyazi on her stomach. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: What do you mean by that? What made her be on her stomach and were other people on their stomachs?

MR HLONGWANE: It was in the way in which this car arrived. The car did not move along the road to Hlanganane as it should. It actually left the road and shone its lights directly at the hall, and then the people at the hall thought that they were being attacked.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills is asking the question: What do you mean Mrs Mbuyazi was on her stomach, I mean that she took cover in the hall?

MR WILLS: So what you are saying essentially is that the people in the hall felt that this car was coming to attack them and, as a result of that, they lay on their stomachs. Is that right, to avoid the attack?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's what I am saying.

MR WILLS: Now your job there, was it also as a guard?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes it was my duty to guard.

MR WILLS: So if somebody came out, it was also your duty to make sure that you neutralised any threat. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: I would have to die first before the people in the hall were attacked. That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you admit that you yourself fired shots and you say in your Affidavit that you used your 357 Magnum. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry Mr Wills. Could I just ask a question on this? Mr Hlongwane, did you notice whether there were any people in the car when you approached it and fired shots?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I did not see.

CHAIRMAN: Or at any stage, did you know whether the car had people in it, at any stage - either when it was being fired at or when it was being set alight?

MR HLONGWANE: I only heard voices from within the car when the people was screaming inside the car.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, just to be clear, particularly in view of Mr Stewart's comment about the translation; as I understood your evidence, this car's lights - the car stopped in such a way that its lights were shining into the hall. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: And, to be fair, your purpose of running out towards that car was to attack and kill anybody in that car. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now if this car's lights were shining in the hall, it must have meant that the car was not a very long great distance away from the hall. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Are you in a position to estimate the distance?

MR HLONGWANE: I think it would be a distance similar to the veranda outside. A person inside the car was able to see the people in the hall.

CHAIRMAN: Do you estimate that at approximately 20 paces, 20-25 paces? About 25 paces?

MR WILLS: Yes, I agree with that Mr Chairperson. You see what worries me is the end of your report of this incident in your Affidavit. You say the Kwa Zulu police arrived and it was discovered that people were burned in the car. Then you go further and you say the police then came to the hall and dropped off a member by the name of Mr Mbato, who was a constable stationed at eSikhawini. Constable Mbato stayed with us until the following morning. Did the police not come in and ask questions about what had happened as regards the burning and the firing of that car and want to take statements from people?

MR HLONGWANE: When the police arrived at the hall, they first started eating. There was a Constable Mbato. When he got off the car he went into the hall and spoke to Mrs Khumalo and said he was very hungry. They went to the hall before they went to the scene of the incident. They knew very well that the people who had burned the car were inside the hall. They even saw the guns and weapons but they didn't do anything. But Constable Mbato was left with us.

MR WILLS: Okay, Mr Hlongwane, I want to now go through a couple of incidents very briefly, because both Mr Mhambo and Mr Mkhize have given details of these incidents and I'm just going to ask you to confirm certain things, okay? The first incident I want to refer to is the return of the weapons. It seems that these same people from Johannesburg were arrested by the Kwa Zulu police and Mr Mkhize gave evidence that both, they were released after being arrested by the Kwa Zulu police and their weapons were returned to Mrs Mbuyazi. Do you confirm that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's what happened.

MR WILLS: Now you've heard a detailed account from both Mr Mkhize and Mr Mhambo about the assassination of April Tarliwe. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's so.

MR WILLS: And do you confirm that it was initially intended that you would be in that assassination squad but these people returned to Mrs Mbuyazi's house after they had already killed him. So you didn't participate in the attack. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes they went to investigate initially, and then they would pick me up later.

MR WILLS: But when they came back, they told you he was already dead?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now the murder of Napthal Khumalo is the next incident. I see you participated in this attack. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I was there.

MR WILLS: You have heard the evidence of Brian Mkhize and Mr Mhambo in relation to this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: They put it the way it happened.

MR WILLS: Now just one little aspect of this incident. You ended up at Mr Robert Mkhize's house. Is that correct, that night? You were dropped off and you weren't taken home. You walked to Mr Mkhize's house. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: It was not Mr Mkhize's house but it belonged to his girlfriend. We did not find him at his house, and then we proceeded to his girlfriend and there we found him.

MR WILLS: Yes, sorry - that is contained in the Affidavit. I apologise for that. The important thing is that when you found Mkhize, what did you say to him?

MR HLONGWANE: We told him that we had made ...(indistinct) board the first bus. He was very pleased and he woke up the girlfriend for us to make tea, and then he made a call to Manziwa, B B Biyela and told him not to worry, and that the boys were at his house. Thereafter we got into his car, a BMW, and went to eSikhawini and he dropped us at Mr Hlela's house.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you. This incident that you report on page 178 in paragraph 123 is a new incident, that nobody has heard about. It was some time in 1992, when there was an attempt to assassinate Mr Beki Ntuli, the ANC leader Mr Beki Ntuli. Do you recall that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember. I was there.

MR WILLS: Now who was with you. Do you recall who was with you that night?

MR HLONGWANE: Mrs Mbuyazi had asked me to take Izingabi to Mr Beki Ntuli's house. So I was with police Izingabi, the group from Johannesburg, to identify the house of Mr Beki Ntuli.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, I note that in the application, it is Mr Mbuyazi who was supposed to have given this order. Is this a typographical error?

MR WILLS: I can clear that up. Sorry I can't remember myself the consultation. I'll clear it up. Thank you for pointing that out Ms Khampepe. Who gave you the order to attack Beki Ntuli's house on this occasion?

MR HLONGWANE: Mrs Mbuyazi was responsible for giving orders to attack. Mr Mbuyazi has never given me an order.

MR WILLS: Thank you. It must be with respect a typographical - Thank you Ms Committee member. Now it's just in short, you find out when you'd returned that you, in fact, made a mistake. Is that correct? As regards to the target?

MR HLONGWANE: I was told by Mrs Mbuyazi and who told me that we had actually attacked number 123 instead of 125.

MR WILLS: Now do you know who lived at house number 123?

MR HLONGWANE: I would be telling you lies. I don't know.

CHAIRMAN: Did anybody die in the attack?

MR HLONGWANE: I wouldn't know because Mrs Mbuyazi reprimanded me heavily about this. As I said, I wouldn't know but Mrs Mbuyazi was very upset.

MR WILLS: Right, I want to go now to the murder of ANC Youth Leader, Vincent Mkhwanazi. Do you recall the incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember.

MR WILLS: Are you saying your Affidavit is the same as being confirmed by Mkhize and Mhambo that this individual was mentioned at the original meeting in Hlanganane Hall where certain ANC targets were identified. Is that correct? He was an identified troublesome ANC person who was on a hit list. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you explain the circumstances leading to his death?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I can explain. What I remember clearly is that Mbuso and Hlela had been told by myself that they should go and meet Pristi Junie Zulu, because a telephone call had come through that they were supposed to go there.

MR WILLS: Slow down please.

MR HLONGWANE: Romeo was alleged to have stolen a car. Thereafter there was a meeting. I don't know whether we used Mr Biyela's car, but we went to attack Nati's home. On the following information, I was not really involved in the following information.

MR WILLS: Sorry, sorry.

CHAIRMAN: Are we talking about the same incidents here?

MR WILLS: I am just going to clear that up. I want you to refer to paragraph 124, sorry page 178 paragraph 124.

CHAIRMAN: This is the incident involving the ANC Youth Leader by the name of Vincent Mkhwanazi.

MR WILLS: Not Nati Gumedi.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I see it.

MR WILLS: Do you want to refresh your memory and look at the paragraph or can you remember the incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember.

MR WILLS: Now, I'm going to start this incident again, now. This person's name was mentioned at a meeting at Hlanganane Hall. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now tell us how he died.

MR HLONGWANE: These boys who were mentioned as being troublesome at eSikhawini, that Inkatha was tired of these boys; at the meeting that was held, they were identified by Mrs Mbuyazi that they were the people who were going to take the first bus.

CHAIRMAN: So you say more than one person was identified. You have referred to the boys and they were identified. Who was identified?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Vincent Mkhwanazi, Sietla Makatini, Jerome Zebani, Themba Mmbasa, and Themba Mmbasa was a hitman. Jerome a hitman as well.

CHAIRMAN: Those are the names referred to in paragraph 115. Thank you.

MR WILLS: Now continue. How did this person die?

MR HLONGWANE: I was walking with Lucky Mbanja and we met them - there were 3 of them, near a certain passage near the clinic. On meeting them, at the time our intention, because these people were ANC members, we greeted them. They greeted us back. Lucky then said do you recognise this person and I said: `no'. And he said: `but who are we looking for?' This is the big fish and I said: `Who is it', and he told me who it was. We turned and we passed them and then made another U-turn and then we approached them and attacked them near the passage.

MS KHAMPEPE: What time was it when you met these people, Mr Hlongwane?

MR HLONGWANE: It was at night.

MS KHAMPEPE: Approximately at what time at night?

MR HLONGWANE: Between 7 and 8.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that you pulled out your firearm and shot at Vincent and one of the boys, and Lucky shot the other boy?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not also so that all three boys fell to the ground?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not also so that you thought that you had succeeded in killing all three of them?

MR HLONGWANE: That's the impression we got.

MR WILLS: Now what section did this occur in?

MR HLONGWANE: H2.

MR WILLS: And who was in control of that particular section. Which political party?

MR HLONGWANE: The ANC.

MR WILLS: You say then - you go on and I refer you to page 179 - The Murder of the ANC Youth. You shot another boy whose identity you don't know. Is that correct. The same night. You and Lucky?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you intended to kill this boy?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Why did you shoot him?

MR HLONGWANE: We were just shooting any boy that we came across.

MR WILLS: And why was that?

MR HLONGWANE: The Mayor and his wife, they were not pleased about a day having gone by without a gun shot being fired, and ...

CHAIRMAN: Can you please keep quiet?

MR HLONGWANE: The Mayor, Mr Biyela and his wife were not happy about a day having gone by without a gun fire and they would come back to us and say: `Sons, not even a gun shot?'

MR WILLS: But this person - how did you know that he was an enemy or did you know he was enemy?

MR HLONGWANE: I'd like to explain to this Committee that there is just one small group of Inkatha in eSikhawini, J2 in particular. When we arrived at eSikhawini it was indicated that whatever you came across, you had to shoot. Anybody that you came across in other sections, for example, had to be killed and then go to report to Mrs Mbuyazi. It was not important who you shot. If a person was shot that had to be reported, but not in J2. There were many people in this hole from J2, for example, and on arrival at eSikhawini I was instructed thus; and I would go out in the evening to shoot. Mr B B Biyela would make it a point that when I came back in the evening, for example, the house that I stayed in - he would come to my backroom and ask me how many people we had shot that night. That very same time, he would telephone Mrs Mbuyazi who would come immediately to be reported on the matter.

CHAIRMAN: This other youth that you say you shot after you shot Vincent. Was he also a pedestrian or walking in the street?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: I see in paragraph 126, you report a complaint that you made to the Mayor. Can you tell the Committee what that complaint was?

MR HLONGWANE: I was complaining that I was no longer able to sleep at night because Kina would come and pick me up now and then, and the following morning I had to be at the Mayor's place, guard the Mayor. I had to sleep in the car sometimes, wake up and I felt that this was too much. I was not able to guard the Mayor and kill people at night at the same time. This was too much. That was my complaint.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr, may I interpose Mr Wills. Mr Hlongwane I note that you alleged that you lodged this complaint on the same day after you had killed the boy that you had met, walking along a footpath, when you were in the company of Mr Mbanja. Is this true or was the complaint lodged on another day?

MR HLONGWANE: Shortly I'd like to explain. Things here seem to be mixed up. They are not following the same sequence. Some happened earlier and some of the things happened after. Things are not following the same sequence.

MR WILLS: I think the - this boy that you shot walking in H2 section - what time of day or night was that? Can you remember, I mean was it in the day or was it in the night?

MR HLONGWANE: It was at night.

MR FALCONER: Did you shoot him close range? Were you close range when you shot him?

MR HLONGWANE: I shot all of them at close range.

MS KHAMPEPE: Why I'm asking that question Mr Hlongwane is that at paragraph 126, you state that later that day you lodged a complaint about you being the only one who had to do all the work, to Mr B B Biyela, and from my reading it would appear that the complaint was lodged on the same day after you shot the boy at H2, and in your evidence you have testified that this person - the boy was shot at about 7 or 8 at night. So I'm just worried about the day that you are referring to at paragraph 126.

MR HLONGWANE: I would not - I said I am not in a position to say exactly as to whether the complaint was lodged the same evening or the following day.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Hlongwane, now I can see from your Affidavit on page 127 that this complaint was attended to and then certain other people were brought to guard the Mayor and then you were free to continue with your operations, your hit-squad operations. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you think of any reason why Mayor Biyela didn't keep you as a guard and get somebody else to conduct the hit-squad operations?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, because people at eSikhawini had to continue dying. He phoned Mr MZ after having attended to my complaint and then I went to stay with Romeo Mbamba, because I had to continue with the work that I was supposed to do.

MR WILLS: Were you regarded as being quite good at that sort of work?

MR HLONGWANE: Not at eSikhawini only. In the whole Kwa Zulu, Natal, right up to the Eastern Transvaal.

MR WILLS: I am going to turn now to page 180 of the record and deal with the attacks on ANC members. This is being covered by Mr Mhambo and Mr Mkhize. It concerns the incident where Mr Cele brought a vehicle from Ulundi and that night you went out and you killed certain people, quite close to - I think three people died that we know of, quite close to the Umzemgwenya Lower Primary School. Do you recall that night?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do recall that.

MR WILLS: Romeo has testified and Kina has testified as to what occurred this night and I don't want you to have to repeat that, only to confirm that you heard what they say and you confirm what they say, is in fact true. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is true.

MR WILLS: The only thing that I want you to testify on your own in this regard is you saw when Mr Mkhize was giving evidence, you saw when Mr Ngubane was asking questions, that Mr Nkosa Nati Jouber was brought forward for all of you to see. Do you remember ...(indistinct) Committee members. I know that you don't remember his name, but what I'm saying is do you recall the person who was standing here, who was clearly very badly injured, even now; standing in front of the Committee a couple of days ago?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do remember.

MR WILLS: Do you recognise that person?

MR HLONGWANE: I remember the incident as to how it happened. I cannot identify him because there were many of them and I'm not in a position to identify him perhaps, but I remember the incident.

MR WILLS: What I'm trying to say was do you recall him as being the person who you shot outside the school that evening?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember that.

MR WILLS: Right I'm going to now turn to paragraph 133 where that section is entitled: `Attempts to influence the Bail Application in favour of IFP Members'. Again that evidence has been given by both Mr Mkhize and Mr Mhambo. Do you confirm the evidence that they gave in regard to this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I confirm it.

MR WILLS: And do you confirm the attack, the evidence that Mr Mhambo gave. I know Mr Khize wasn't there and he didn't testify to this incident. But do you confirm the evidence that Mr Mhambo gave in regard to the attack on the bus stop near Nzuza's house, some time in 1993?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I confirm that.

MR WILLS: Now this next section in paragraph 135: `The Strategies to Avenge the death of Constable Dunka'. Mr Mkhize and Mr Mhambo have testified. Do you confirm the evidence in that regard? Their evidence in that regard, as it relates to you?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I was present indeed.

MR WILLS: There is just one thing that I want to highlight in this section and that comes from paragraph 136. You mentioned there that one of the persons involved was Themba Nkosi Mtetwe and this is the same Mr X, from your Criminal Trial. Is this one of the incidents where he assisted you people?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now you will see on paragraph 139 - Sorry I just want to go back. Page 138, you say that - Sorry, paragraph 138, page 184, you say that after this incident, the night attack, Kina reported to Mrs Mbuyazi what had been done and that she was very pleased. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct. She was with Chief Motaba.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now I'm not going to deal with the attempt to kill Japi Tarliwe. This is one of the incidents that occurred at Bushbuck Ridge, so it does not concern the people here. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And we will deal with that at a later stage. I want to touch on the story you relate about being hidden, to avoid arrest, and this commences on page 185 at paragraph 140. You say that you received a telephone call at Mrs Mbuyazi's house. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Who telephoned you?

MR HLONGWANE: It was MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS: And what did he tell you on the telephone?

MR HLONGWANE: He told me that the Empangeni police were looking for me. They wanted to arrest me.

MR WILLS: And so what happened? He told you to report to Ulundi. Is that not correct?

MR HLONGWANE: I left eSikhawini for Ulundi and I spoke to MZ directly in his office, and he I spoke to him directly, that is MZ Khumalo. After having spoken to him, he then took me to Mangeti, that's a place. He actually took me to ...(indistinct), that's a shop. The shop belongs to Mr Mashubani.

MR WILLS: Yes, why did he take you there? What was the purpose of you going to this area?

MR HLONGWANE: I was been hidden away from the police.

MR WILLS: Yes and you say in paragraph 141 that in the car, MZ praised you for the work you'd done and called you a real Inkatha soldier. Do you confirm that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you confirm that for some weeks, you remained in this area hiding from the police, with other persons who were also hiding from the police. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: With two other persons and eventually, a third person well another person came after one had left. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now just to be clear, you were hiding with two boys, Themba Nkosi Ndlovu and Umlu, a person by the name of Umlu (I can't pronounce the surname) it's spelt Mgcoya.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you lived in a tent in the bush, and that either MZ or his son, what was his son's - what was MZ's son's name, brought you food?

MR HLONGWANE: Lalilani is his name. Lalilani Khumalo.

MR WILLS: Right I want to turn to the incident that starts at paragraph 144 and on page 186. Now the incidents that we are going to talk about now, concern your operation in the Mandini area and the Silumbele area. Do you understand?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do understand.

MR WILLS: Now, in these areas, you weren't operating with the other members of the eSikhawini hit-squad. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: So essentially, you'd been taken out of the eSikhawini hit-squad at this period of your operations, and you were going to start operating in another area. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: So do I understand it then that from that point of time on, it was no longer your duty to report or to follow Mr Kina Mkhize's instruction.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that to just digress very briefly, that you had been used quite extensively in a number of areas. For example, you had been used initially in the Mpumalanga area. When someone as efficient as you was needed in an area where Inkatha was needing some strength, you'd be transferred to that area. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And can you just briefly tell us the areas where you operated in?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: You don't have to tell us what you did. I am not interested in that. All I am wanting you to tell the Committee and members of the public, are the areas in which you operated in.

MR HLONGWANE: Mpumalanga, Mandini, eSikhawini and Ermelo, and also Mangeti, that is Chief Motaba's place.

MR WILLS: I mean why did you go to these different areas. What caused you to go to these different areas?

MR HLONGWANE: First of all, people cannot identify me. I can infiltrate the enemy and secondly, I can run faster. I look like a comrade. I also run faster than the rest of my comrades. Thirdly, I can jump the highest fences and I am also brave.

CHAIRMAN: Did you, Mr Hlongwane, did you when you moved from one area to another, did you do that on instructions, or did you do that on your, out of your own choice?

MR HLONGWANE: I would only follow instructions, a command.

MR WILLS: Yes we know, for example, that you started your operations in Mpumalanga. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Then you were instructed to go to Ermelo. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And who instructed you to go to Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: It was D Luthuli.

MR WILLS: Yes, then you were in Ermelo and you received instructions to go to eSikhawini. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct indeed.

MR WILLS: And who instructed you to go to eSikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE: It was D Luthuli.

MR WILLS: And when you were in eSikhawini, you received instructions to go to the Mangeti area. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And who gave you those instructions to go to Mangeti?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Mr MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS: Now, because you had moved out of the Mr Mkhize's jurisdiction, it seems that - how did you know what you were to do in this Mangeti area?

MR HLONGWANE: Gerry Mdunda is not superior in the hit-squad. If Gerry Mdunda had issued an instruction, that would be the same as Kina had done.

MR WILLS: Would it not be accurate to say that Gerry Mdunda had an area of operations that was different to Mr Mkhize's area?

MR HLONGWANE: Gerry Mdunda would operate in all the places, all the areas.

MR WILLS: Now why would you, on what authority would you listen to Mr Mdunda. Why would you listen to Gerry Mdunda. Who told you to listen to Gerry Mdunda. Why would you know that if he came, you were to listen to him?

MR HLONGWANE: He was a member of the hit-squad and I knew fully well that he must have been instructed by MZ Khumalo. There is only one person who knew where he was in the bush, and that would be MZ Khumalo. He is the only person who could have sent him. I used to stay in a bush and nobody would have known where I was, unless a person who was instructed by MZ Khumalo; and people wanted to know what we were doing there and we indicated that we intended to build houses and, therefore, I knew that Gerry Mdunda must have been sent by MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS: Had you had any knowledge of Gerry Mdunda prior to him coming to see you in the bush?

MR HLONGWANE: I knew him very well.

MR WILLS: Tell us how you knew him.

MR HLONGWANE: I knew that, for example, if a person was wanted, a person had to die. Gerry wouldn't mind spending three days sleeping in the car. He wouldn't mind three days sleeping in the car if he wanted to kill someone, and I knew that he was also a well known person, especially at Ulundi. He was an Inkatha hitman.

MR WILLS: When did you first meet Mdunda? Can you recall?

MR HLONGWANE: At Ulundi, very long ago. I cannot remember what year it was. That was at a conference.

MR WILLS: And how did you know - how did you get personal knowledge that he was involved in these hit-squads?

MR HLONGWANE: I was like a son to MZ Khumalo. We would discuss everything. I was actually his son and he would tell me that he had his boys, and I knew things about ...(indistinct) and things that were happening at some places.

MR WILLS: So are you inferring that Mr MZ Khumalo told you about Gerry Mdunda?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes he did.

MR WILLS: Okay, I want you to relate the incident where you tried to take out the - was it the Captain Msinga, at the Silumbele Police Station? Can you tell the Committee about this attempt?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I can. Gerry came to the tent. He was driving Chief Motaba's Cressida, blueish in colour. On arrival, he took me. We then went. I cannot remember when we went to Mbanza first and when we got there. If I am not mistaken, we went to Mbanza and then to the station. I had an AK-47 and Gerry was going to walk into the office and check as to whether he was there, and if he was in the office, I would walk into the Police Station and shoot him there; and when Gerry came back and told me that he did not find him and that's how he managed not to be - that's how we did not manage to get hold of him.

MR WILLS: But didn't you think that if you walked into a Police Station and shot someone in the Police Station, you'd be arrested? I mean surely that's a very silly place to conduct an assassination.

MR HLONGWANE: At that time, all the police in the Kwa Zulu Police Force were our comrades. I would not be arrested. I would hit him at a Police Station in Kwa Zulu, and I therefore would not be arrested.

MR WILLS: Do you know who was in charge of that Police Station?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I know. It was Major Owen Nzama.

MR WILLS: And do you know anything about this person, Major Nzama, what his role was in these operations, if he had any?

MR HLONGWANE: He was an Inkatha, that I know, and he also used to work with people like Victor of the hit-squad at Mandini; and I therefore know that he was an Inkatha member, even though I did not work with him personally. But I know that he was working for Inkatha, for a very long time.

MR WILLS: Who is this Victor you refer to?

MR HLONGWANE: Victor is a police who was trained by the 200 men, the Caprivians.

MR WILLS: And where was this Victor stationed?

MR HLONGWANE: He was stationed at Mandini. That is where he was killing people.

MR WILLS: Was he a member of the Kwa Zulu Police Station at Silumbele?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And just for the clarification of the Committee, Silumbele is a township which is just outside of Mandini. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: It is a township right inside Mandini.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. I just want to - you say that you and Gerry had a meeting with Nkosi Motaba, Shakes Mhlonga. Who was Shakes Mhlonga?

MR HLONGWANE: Shakes Mhlonga was in charge of Inkatha at Mandini.

MR WILLS: And what did you discuss at this meeting?

MR HLONGWANE: We were discussing killing people.

MR WILLS: So, did these people know what you intended to do later, i.e. with reference to the attempt on Captain Msinga?

MR HLONGWANE: They knew very well. Everybody knew.

MR WILLS: Okay, I want to now turn to the incident that starts at your paragraph 148 page 187 of the record, and it concerns the murder of an ANC member, Gindinga. Do you recall - okay, can you just tell the members of the public and the Committee what happened there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I can explain. Gindinga, I was told -we were told that Gindinga was troublesome at school and therefore, but I did not know which school exactly, whether Odumo or another one. There was a house at Mandini where it was alleged, or where - that is number 45, that is where you'd find this ANC comrades. What Gindinga did was that he would take these boys, in the absence of his mother, and he would eat every food, all the food with the boys and I was just told I had to go and kill him.

MR WILLS: Who told you this?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Shakes, Gadebi, because they said Gindinga's mother - I know Gindinga's mother - she is a famous IFP leader. I am saying here that Gindinga - I was instructed to kill him and the instruction came from Shakes and Gadebi, saying that it was his mother who instructed that he be killed. I know Gindinga's mother and she knows me too.

MR WILLS: I see ...

CHAIRMAN: Please keep quiet.

MR WILLS: So it's apparent from your evidence and this is an important aspect for the - which must be cleared up before the Committee, that you obviously conducted many operations and that from your evidence, you've got - you seem to have received instructions from a broad range of people. Now for example, I just want you to tell us who were the types of people that had the authority to give you instructions to conduct these operations. In what positions did they occupy?

MR HLONGWANE: It was people like Councillors, Mayors, prominent members of Inkatha, Amakosi.

MR WILLS: Now why did you listen to these people?

MR HLONGWANE: For the reason that I also wanted my political party to succeed. We thought that at one point or one day, the Inkatha Freedom Party will become the Government of the day.

CHAIRMAN: So Mr Hlongwane, are you saying that in this case you were told by Gadebi and Shakes Mhlonga to kill because the victim's mother had asked that her own son be killed, because he was eating all the food together with young ANC boys?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct, but I would like to explain this further. I don't know if I can continue explaining this issue?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR HLONGWANE: Thereafter, Shakes took me - I don't remember whether it was Shakes or Gadebi, but when we actually killed him, I was with Shakes. Gadebi told me that Shakes was going to identify this boy to me. We went to the shop. A shop called Renkins and he showed me the boy. The boy went into the shop and then came out. I looked for this boy for a while and we didn't find him. One day I was with Shakes in a location called Chippies. We were at a shebeen and Shakes told me that Gindinga was there at the shebeen. We waited for him outside. When he came out I saw him. He was with another boy and then I shot him. Afterwards we left. The important thing that I was also present at his funeral. His mother was telling us to hurry. I was surprised when I heard that his mother alleged that she didn't know anything about his death, whereas in fact she did know.

CHAIRMAN: Please be quiet.

MR HLONGWANE: When the food was brought to us by the Empangeni office, a goat or sheep was brought. Gindinga's mother took the food and that beasts and throw them out. We attended the funeral. After the funeral she gave us a few beers and we drank, and then we dispersed. I know for a fact that she did not care. She was in fact pleased about the death of her son.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane was there ever an occasion when you were specifically instructed or requested by Gindinga's mother to kill him? Did you understand my question or should I repeat it?

MR HLONGWANE: I understand the question. No ...(indistinct) about the death of her son. We had never discussed the matter.

MS KHAMPEPE: So there was never an occasion when you were specifically instructed or requested by Gindinga's mother to kill Gindinga?

MR HLONGWANE: No. What I do know is that she knew about the case, his death, but she didn't speak to me directly.

MS KHAMPEPE: So the instructions came from Shakes and Gadebi only?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is true.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Hlongwane. We are following on from the questioning by the Committee Member. I refer you to the bottom of page 187 where you say that Shakes took you to Renkin Spar in Mandini where Gindinga's mother, Coty, worked. She was a strong supporter of the IFP. She told me that her son Gindinga was troubling her in the sense that he brought ANC boys to her home and finished all her food. She told me that I should kill her son for her as he was an ANC supporter. Are you telling us that this part of your Affidavit is in fact incorrect. It must be in relation to the questions asked by the Committee Member?

MR HLONGWANE: What I remember is what I have said. If this is how the statement was written, it must have been a mistake. I only spoke to Shakes and Gadebi.

MR WILLS: Thank you. I refer you now to paragraph 149, Instructions from IFP Mandini Leaders. Now you refer in that paragraph to Bongani Hadebi, Shakes Mhlonga, Nkosi Motaba, a person Mpanza and Gerry Mdanda, and you refer to these people who were the Inkatha leaders at Mandini and who had provided you with a list of persons that you had to kill. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct. Yes.

MR WILLS: And you say there were about 15 people on this list but you cannot remember all the names?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now it seems to me from having dealt with the Ermelo incidents, that this is very similar to the set-up that happened to you in Ermelo - the same thing. When you went to Ermelo you met with the local leadership, the IFP leadership in Ermelo and they also were the ones who identified the people who had to die. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And that in essence, the same happened in Mandini, I'm sorry, in eSikhawini. You went to eSikhawini and the local leadership would be the persons who would be responsible for identifying these people?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now who else knew about this other than the local leadership. Who knew about your operations?

MR HLONGWANE: MZ Khumalo, Gideon Zulu - they all knew.

MR WILLS: How do you know that they knew?

MR HLONGWANE: It must be remembered that MZ Khumalo used to work closely with the special branch and the special branch reported to MZ Khumalo about everything that happened. That is how I know.

MR WILLS: Did you have direct dealings with these persons that you've mentioned where these matters were raised?

MR HLONGWANE: Which people are you talking about?

MR WILLS: MZ Khumalo.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I was very close to MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS: Gideon Zulu?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, yes, I was close to him.

MR WILLS: And we've had evidence from Mr Luthuli that he knew what you were doing?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes he knew very well.

MR WILLS: You killed the Khumalo boy in Mandini. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: You say that you followed him to Island Township in Mandini where he was visiting a girlfriend?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: You say this Khumalo boy appeared on this list?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: You fired your piston and the girlfriend ran away and you killed this Khumalo boy. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: You say that the girl was hit in the arm. Do you mean that she was shot in the arm?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, she was close to this boy and when I fired a shot it hit her arm and then when she ran away, I could then kill the boy.

MR WILLS: Now you yourself didn't know anything about this boy Khumalo. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: All the people that I killed, I did not know. I was just told who to kill and I would do so. I did not have any argument with them, I would just be told who to kill and then I would go and kill, because if I did not do this people like Mdlanduna would have killed me.

MR WILLS: Okay I want to refer now to the incident that occurs at paragraph 151. Now that is the killing of the Nduna on the orders of Chief Motaba. Do you confirm what Mr Mkhize said in relation to this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do confirm.

MR WILLS: It is essentially that this instruction was given because this Nduna was troublesome to Chief Motaba and you confirm that you participated in the death of this Nduna?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, yes, I was involved.

MR WILLS: And you confirm that you reported back to Motaba after this person was killed where he indicated that he was very pleased with you?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes he was very pleased.

MR WILLS: I want you to turn now to paragraph 152 where there is an attack on an Nduna Sishe. Can you tell us what happened there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I can. One day I was walking around Mandini and I met Chief Motaba and he told me he'd been looking for me for a long time. He told me that there were boys who were busy burning peoples' houses down in his area. He said I should look for these people and kill them.

MR WILLS: Why did Motaba approach you. Why didn't he go to somebody else?

MR HLONGWANE: Because I was an IFP soldier. It was my duty to kill the opponents of Inkatha. He came to me because he knew that I killed people who troubled Inkatha.

MR WILLS: Can you continue?

MR HLONGWANE: Thereafter if I'm not mistaken Motaba said he was going to speak to Geda his driver who then came to fetch me and then I went to Chief Motaba. Geda was driving a 4 x 4. On arrival there was Geda and another boy from Hammarsdale, Ledidi Mosha and Bonga Nkosi from eSikhawini, Olani and another coloured boy from Mangeta called Duncan. I don't remember his surname.

MR WILLS: You've recorded in your Affidavit, Duncan Dunn. Is that the correct surname?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is the one. We all met at Chief Motaba's place.

MR WILLS: Was this attack discussed where you met?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes we did and Duncan went to buy petrol from the garage.

MR WILLS: Yes carry on.

MR HLONGWANE: We ...

MR WILLS: Yes carry on Mr Hlongwane. Look I realise that you have to think about these incidents and that's good. You must take the time to think to the best of your memory, what happened. We are wanting to know to the best of your memory what happened. So just please carry on and try and tell us if you can remember what happened in this incident.

MR HLONGWANE: We were using Chief Motaba's car and Duncan was using his own car. I was in charge of that operation and the boy who was supposed to identify the houses was Geda, Chief Motaba's driver. We left and then he showed us around the area and had identified the houses for us. The Nduna Sishe was opposed to IFP policies as was alleged by Chief Motaba and he was apparently advising people not to follow the orders issued by the Chief. So we started burning the houses down. On returning there a White boy came, in fact he was chasing us and we were followed by a van, a police van, into Chief Motaba's house. When we had entered the house this White policeman followed us. He went to the car and felt that it was warm and he enquired who was using the car, but Chief Motaba reprimanded him heavily and chased him away. That man left and went back to Nyoni. I left on the same night and returned to my place.

MR WILLS: Yes, so that night you didn't actually kill this Nduna because he wasn't there. Is that right? You just burned houses down?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes we just burned houses.

CHAIRMAN: So can you give an indication as to how many houses were burned down that night?

MR HLONGWANE: There were two groups, one commanded by myself and one commanded by Duncan. There were a lot of houses that were burned down.

CHAIRMAN: When you say a lot, what are you talking about? Three or four or more?

MR HLONGWANE: About six to eight.

CHAIRMAN: Six to eight? Do you know if anybody died as a result of those attacks?

MR HLONGWANE: No we didn't find anybody.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Wills, I see that it's eleven. I don't know if you find this a convenient time to adjourn. If not, we can carry on.

MR WILLS: Yes it is a convenient time. I will move onto the next incident. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRMAN: We will now take the tea adjournment.

CHAIRMAN: Yes thank you. Mr Wills you may proceed.

I H HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane there is just one thing I want to clear up and I'm sorry. I must refer you back to page 187 `The Murder of ANC Member Gendinga'. I just want you to clarify to this Committee why this person was killed, if you knew.

MR HLONGWANE: He was killed because he was an ANC member.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Alright, let's return to where we were, that is at page 190 paragraph 153, the section `Attack on Cosatu Mandini Official'. Have you got that bit? Now here you talk about a person who you killed as a Mr Shandu.

MR HLONGWANE: I remember.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us the circumstances surrounding this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: I didn't know Mr Shandu at the time. He was a member of Cosatu which was known to be an ANC wing. Shandu was troublesome to Woza because he recruited their members. Chief Motaba then said that he should be killed. Indeed Motaba provided me with one boy called ...(indistinct) Zulu and Shakes Mhlongo, as well as Panza. We then proceeded to go kill him and we were using Chief Motaba's Cressida. When we got to his place, I knocked and nobody answered. I was then forced to break the window and we poured petrol into the house; then he came out of the house and then I shot him. After shooting him, cartridges were left on the scene of the crime. I was using Chief Motaba's gun and their cartridges were left at the scene. We then returned to our place.

MR WILLS: What happened to Chief Motaba's firearm?

MR HLONGWANE: If I remember correctly there was a member of the SAP who was Chief Motaba's friend. His surname I do not remember. This person apparently told Motaba that his gun was implicated in that murder. I don't remember if Chief Motaba's - the person who informed Chief Motaba about his gun worked at Nyoni. As I said I don't remember his surname. I was informed that I had killed the right person indeed. I think his surname might have been Hughes.

MR WILLS: Yes, okay. You say that at the bottom of that paragraph - you say that you remember Motaba telling you that the firearm was linked ballistically to the death of this person. He said that he had arranged with some policeman at Nyoni to sort it out for him. Indeed this firearm was returned to him sometime later. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, in fact Motaba has the gun.

MR WILLS: Nyoni to my understanding, is an SAP Police Station. It's not a Kwa Zulu Police Station. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And the Police Station at Silumbele is a Kwa Zulu Police Station and not an SAP station. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: You talk about, in paragraph 154 `Further Attacks on ANC Members in the Mandini area', and in this incident you refer to the attack on this one person by the name of Nleko. Do you remember that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Please tell the Committee and members of the public what happened.

MR HLONGWANE: We held meetings several times at Banda's place. His house number was number 13. We used to call Banda ...(indistinct). We would hold meetings to discuss the killing of people at Mandini, at his house. On one occasion, there was a discussion that Mr Ngleco - I have a picture of him in my mind. I learned that he worked at SAPI. I knew him and we knew his movements. At that time Chief Motaba had fetched some boys from ...(indistinct). Those boys were `AK's and Temba'. Those were code names and were not their real names. So AK and Temba were just code names given to these boys. After the meeting, when I was supposed to go and monitor or investigate his house, I did so and on arrival, I saw a lot of boys coming out of the house and I asked something from them, and in the afternoon I met Chief Motaba and told him that I had met a large group of boys in that house. I then told Chief Motaba, on the same day, that we would attack on that very same evening. Chief Motaba came with...

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane, I think the translator was finding it very difficult to keep up with your pace. Your pace is quite fast. Mr Hlongwane, so that the interpretation can be transferred to English, we will also request you to speak loudly, that members of the public can hear you. Thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: I apologise.

CHAIRMAN: Yes Mr Wills, you may proceed.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Mr Hlongwane, you were in the process of telling us what happened about the attack on Ngleco. You say that you eventually went to his house with Temba and a person by the name of AK. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And can you tell us what happened then?

MR HLONGWANE: Mr Ngleco was supposed to knock off work late, so we waited outside his house. The guys that I was with seemed to be a bit tipsy because I had to wake them up several times. They were sleeping. I had a knife and then I woke them up. On doing so we looked around and we waited for him to approach the gate. As he was just about to approach his gate, he was with other people. We came out of our hiding place and we greeted him. He became suspicious. What I noticed of that Mr Ngleco, he had some sort of brick or stone because when one of the boys raised his arm to aim at him, he hit him with a brick on the head, and the gun that Temba had was a revolver, a 38 revolver, belonging to Shakes. When he was hit by a brick, I retreated and drew my gun. Temba fell and the gun fell away. I grabbed Temba and Mr Ngleco started running away. I did not fire my gun but I know that the others did fire. I dragged Temba and I hid him among some flowers. I went back to Chief Motaba's place. As I got there...

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, please be quiet. Sorry can you just repeat that Mr Hlongwane? Can you just say that again, I didn't hear with the noise. You said you went back.

MR HLONGWANE: I went back and I found Chief Motaba drinking Hunter's Gold Cider. I told him that the boy, Temba, was hit. He reprimanded me. I told him that you had said that the boys were sharp. We then got into his car and went to the Silumbele Police Station. On arrival there, there was a policeman, light in complexion. I have forgotten his surname. This policeman knew me and he greeted me. On that day this policeman was on duty. He went into the van and I went with him, and we returned to Mr Ngleco's house. I was asked to identify Ngleco's house. I went there and I looked for the gun, and I couldn't find it. At that time the policeman was speaking to Mr Ngleco, enquiring about the incident and at that time I was looking for the gun outside, and I couldn't find it. Thereafter I went to Chief Motaba. We never found the gun thereafter.

MR WILLS: Did the policeman that accompanied you to Ngleco's house, know what you'd been up to earlier that evening?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes he knew that we were going there to look for the gun.

MR WILLS: No my question was, did he know that you'd been responsible for an attack at that house earlier the evening, and the circumstances surrounding the loss of the firearm?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes he did. Chief Motaba had told him the entire story.

MR WILLS: You mention, on page 192 paragraph 156, `An Attack on a House at 45 Silumbele'.

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us what happened on this attack?

MR HLONGWANE: As I was still in the process of identifying houses to the IFP group from Johannesburg, Chief Motaba came to me and said I should go show them number 45. This house was the place where ANC meetings were held. I don't remember whether we fetched a White Kombi from ...(indistinct). I think we used the Kombi, the Mitsubishi and Chief Motaba was driving it. We went along the road and we passed the house and we stopped near the BIC and, at that time, we alighted and walked on foot, and approached the house from above. There were people standing at the gate and we attacked those people first. One of them fell and the rest ran away. Thereafter we went into the premises. There was a motorbike, a big motorbike in front of the kitchen. It was dragged and burned. We could not burn the house but we ...(indistinct). Chief Motaba then took us back to eSikhawini.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Hlongwane, you said you attacked the people at the gate. How did you attack them?

MR HLONGWANE: We shot at them.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, I just want to clarify something here. This Kombi you referred to, is that the same Kombi that was sometimes used in operations in eSikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes it's the very same one.

MR WILLS: This is the one that was fitted with the ZG Plates?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is the one.

MR WILLS: You mention in paragraph 158, on page 193 about some boys at the Tugela High School, who were causing problems for IFP persons at the High School.

MR HLONGWANE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS: I refer you to page 193 paragraph 158. You say that one day when you were in Mandini, one boy Bongani Hadebe told me that some boys at their school, Tugela High School, were harrassing children belong to the IFP and assaulting them.

MR HLONGWANE: IFP boys were being harrassed by the ANC.

MR WILLS: Yes, and what did you do as a result of that?

MR HLONGWANE: Bongani told me that I should attack those boys because they were on a trip or an outing, and IFP children were told not to go. It was only ANC boys who went on this outing. So we attacked these boys near Behla.

MR WILLS: I'm not sure, it might be a typographical error here again Ms Committee Member. Was that at a place called Duck City or Dark City?

MR HLONGWANE: No, if I remember correctly Duck City and Behla are two different places. The ANC boys went towards Duck City.

MR WILLS: And did you attack them there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And four boys died as a result of this attack. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And who were you with when you conducted this attack?

MR HLONGWANE: I was with one boy who worked at Spar.

MR WILLS: What was his name?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't remember whether it was Gigi or Moosa. I think ...

CHAIRMAN: Quiet please.

MR HLONGWANE: When I mentioned guns, I will have a problem. I'll ask for pardon from the Commission because we used code names for different weapons.

MR WILLS: On that attack Mr Hlongwane, is it true that you used an R1 and Gigi used a shotgun for this operation?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is true.

MR WILLS: You are referring to paragraph 159 now. You say that Mdlanduna phoned you some time when you were in eSikhawini and told you to go and guard, Nawoosa's house at Eshowe. Is this Nawoosa Prince Gideon's driver.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And is he the same person who testified in your Trial when he tried to explain the reasons for you being given that Opel Monza car. Can you remember if he testified at the Trial?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes he is the one.

MR WILLS: Now - sorry. If the Committee can just bear with me very briefly. You say whilst you were at ... guarding Nawoosa's house, the house was attacked. Is that correct? And you assisted in the repelling of the attack. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, we are at page 194 now, paragraph 161 and that deals with the `Kidnapping and Murder of Nati Gumedi.' I don't want to deal with that incident because it's been dealt with extensively by other witnesses. Do you confirm what has been said in relation to your activities in that killing. You confirm having participated in the killing of Nati Gumedi?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And you confirm what the report of that as given by the two previous witnesses, Mkhize and Mhambo?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And in relation to the murder of the four youths, one of whom was Befana Jeli, who you knew as Mdanda, at Paul ...indistinct) shebeen. Mr Mhambo has given evidence in that regard. Do you confirm the information given by Mr Mhambo.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And do you also confirm that you also participated in the killing of these boys by using a shotgun?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, just - was anything taken from these boys after they died?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Tell the Committee what this was.

MR HLONGWANE: Romeo removed an AK-47 from Mdanda and I removed two 9mm pistols which had fell from these boys. The other one had a knife, but we left it there. We took the guns with us.

MR WILLS: Yes, now I want to turn to the murder of Sargeant Dlamini. It's at page 166, sorry paragraph 166 page 195. Again, both Mr Mhambo and Mr Mkhize have given evidence in regard to this murder. Do you confirm what they said in relation to your involvement?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: In fact what they said is you were the person who actually killed Sargeant Dlamini. You pulled the trigger that was responsible for the fatal shot. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you just take the issue from there because I know that Sargeant Dlamini's relatives are here today. Can you tell us what happened from the time you were inside Sargeant Dlamini's house, to the time that you killed him. Can you tell us what happened?

MR HLONGWANE: When we arrived at Sargeant Dlamini's house, people who were present was myself, Romeo and Kina, and Stefano. Just the four of us.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Hlongwane, you must listen to my question. We know who was there, there is no doubt about that. What I'm simply asking you is not to tell me about the whole incident. We have heard about that on two occasions. I'm just asking you to tell me about what happened from the time you were already inside the house, until Sargeant Dlamini was killed.

MR HLONGWANE: Sargeant Dlamini insulted us for the entire time. At some point he kept quiet and he moved and we could therefore ascertain his position. Then we started shooting. When I got into the house I was in front of Romeo and I arrived at his bedroom first. When he tried to get out of the room, I pulled the trigger and he fell. After that we went out of the room and Romeo asked me if I was sure that he had died. I took ...(indistinct) Mtetwe's 9mm pistol and returned into the house, and I fired another shot. Thereafter we left. Kina was not there when Sargeant Dlamini was killed.

MR WILLS: Yes, now what's this Mtetwe, Temba Nkosi Mtetwe. Would you regard him as being an active participant in this killing?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes he was involved.

MR WILLS: I want to turn now to page 197 paragraph 171. Now this is the murder of the Cosatu Bus Driver by the name of Jali, and this is an incident to which Mr Mkhize has referred. Mr Mkhize's evidence is to the effect that it was an assassination on the instruction again of Chief Motaba, and that you were involved together with Mkhize and others in this assassination. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is true.

MR WILLS: And what Mr Mkhize said about this incident, do you confirm?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, yes.

MR WILLS: Now we return to Mandini at page 198 and paragraph 173, where there was an incident concerning members of the Majenga family. Do you recall that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Now we haven't heard any evidence about this. The Commission hasn't heard anything about this. Can you tell us what happened?

MR HLONGWANE: Amongst the meeting that we held at 13, Majenga's family was regarded as an ANC family, so that if you attacked any person belonging to that house, you would have hit the ANC. Bongani Hadebe, Shakes Mhlongo and Banza knew about the death of all these people. I am not the person who killed everybody from the Majenga family. One of these other people that I have mentioned were also involved in the killing of other members from the Majenga family.

MR WILLS: Yes, you've indicated that there was one of these boys who you followed one night. Can you just tell us what happened. One of the boys from this family?

MR HLONGWANE: I was from the Silumbele Police Station to pay my friends a visit, Victor Mia and Philake Ngcobo. Those were also Caprivians. They knew what was going on at Mandini. As I was going out through the gate, the boy who was in my company, identified this Majenga boy and this Majenga boy had realised that we were following him, and he took a turn and walked into a house that was near a Police Station; he came out with a girl and started to look around. We were hiding somewhere, we were still looking at them. They wanted to walk through the school and he was approaching us, he was not aware and that is where we hit him.

MR WILLS: You shot him? You didn't hit him. You shot him with a 9mm pistol?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. I cannot remember exactly what pistol it was.

MR WILLS: Do you know if he died as a result of the incident, or not?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I know.

CHAIRMAN: Did he die?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, yes, he died.

MR WILLS: The next incident that I want to refer to starts at paragraph 177, page 199. It's an incident whereby you and your cohort Kulani, accidently shot Mr Abraham Mbuyazi and I take that, that is Mrs Mbuyazi's husband. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now this person was paralysed as a result of this attack. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now the only thing that I want you to testify, in regard to this incident, is what did Mrs Mbuyazi say to you when you approached her and told her about this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: After this accidental shot, we went to Romeo first and we found him in the company of Silas Nteli. We took him in Silas's car; we went to the clinic at H and an ambulance was called, and we took him to Richards Bay. And we proceeded, myself with Romeo, going to Mrs Mbuyazi and reported to her what accident had happened, so that her husband was shot. We all heard voices where we shot him accidently, and we thought the voices were the voices of the people who were about to attack us; and Kulani shot him with my Magnum and he fell; and on explaining this to Mrs Mbuyazi, she requested that we lower our voices. We indicated that Mr Mbuyazi was now injured, and she wanted to know whether he was dead. That was the first thing she wanted to know, and we indicated that `no, he was in hospital'; and she said we should not tell anybody. That would be something we had to keep between ourselves.

CHAIRMAN: Please be quiet.

MR HLONGWANE: The following day, we went to the hospital and on arrival Mbuyazi said: `...(indistinct) I heard your voice, but I know that it was a mistake. My boy I forgive you.' I was in the company of Romeo and he said: `I forgive you,' and he shook my hand.

MR WILLS: Yes, why do you think - why was it that Mrs Mbuyazi said that you shouldn't report this to anybody and you should keep quiet about it. Do you know why she said that? Sorry, I'm wanting to know why Mrs Mbuyazi asked you to keep this incident quiet. Do you know the reason for that or not?

MR HLONGWANE: As a person with a very cold heart, as a woman who had a cold heart I then would say what exactly she said. But I remember that she indicated that this should be kept between ourselves.

MR WILLS: Okay Mr Hlongwane I want to refer you to paragraph 180 on page 200. Now this concerns some home-made pipe bombs.

MR HLONGWANE: I remember that. I know that.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us about these pipe bombs and what you did with them and who gave them to you?

MR HLONGWANE: They were given to us by Mr Pipi Biyela saying we should use the bombs to attack ANC houses. We had to attack all places where there were ANC members because there is a woman who used to drive a car called Thanduxulo and she is the who would go around identifying the places that we had to attack.

MR WILLS: Was this in eSikiweni?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes it was eSikiweni.

MR WILLS: And did you in fact use these bombs?

MR HLONGWANE: On the first day of the arrival of the bombs Lucky and I went to the beach. They exploded such that we realised that they were dangerous. They are not like M1 or M26. You would light this piece of string and it would explode different from the ordinary bombs. Instead of exploding upwards it would explode downward. Tabeli was the driver and Lucky Mbajuwa who is a police now at Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Yes I think Mr Hlongwane do you know did anybody die? You say in your affidavit that you would throw these bombs at houses. Is that correct? Did you in fact throw these bombs at houses in eSikiweni?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is exactly what we did.

MR WILLS: And you say that: "I am not sure if anybody died during these attacks." Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you say: "These attacks took place at various places in eSikiweni township and I am able to identify 3 such targets." Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: So if the police were to take you to eSikiweni today you would be able to point those out to people?

MR HLONGWANE: I still remember some scenes not all of them but others I still remember very well. There are only a few incidences or scenes that I can identify because that was my job anyway. That was the kind of job that I was doing as a member of the hit squad.

CHAIRMAN: Did these bombs cause damage to the houses that you threw them at? Did the bombs cause damage and if so what was the extent of the damage? Was it small damage or did it destroy the houses? What sort of damage did the houses cause to the houses?

MR HLONGWANE: These bombs exploded such that they would bore the floor. They would competely destroy the floor. It looks like they were manufactured specifically for mine usage or usage at the mine to carck rocks. So that windows and the walls were not necessarily damaged but the floor and everything that was on the floor. That is how I can put it.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane I think you have not responded to Mr Wills questioned when he asked you whether you would be in a position to identify the 3 targets that you have stated in your affidavit to have to be able to identify.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I can identify some of the three, some of the houses among the three.

MR WILLS: Thank you members of the Committee. Mr Hlongwane the final incident that you record in this long sorry tale is the incident involving the shooting at persons spray painting a sign in eSikiweni. Can you remember that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: I remember that very well.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee and members of the public about that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: The Mayor, Mr Pipi Biyela together with Mrs Mbuyazi they bought sprays and they said that we were going to spray the roads, you know give them IFP names such as Bambata Road.

MR WILLS: Sorry. Mr Hlongwane I get the message from the members of the gallery that they not hearing you. Can you try and speak up a little bit?

MR HLONGWANE: The major, Mr Pipi Biyela and Mrs Lindiwe Mbuyazi bought sprays, the kind of sprays that are used for graffiti. And they said we were going to give these streets names such as Bambata, Battalion, IFP and we did that. The mayor brought the sprays and we did that. We started spraying at, the people at eSikiweni know the place, it is a bus stop called eSthlageni, just before the mayor's house. That is where we started spray painting and we proceeded towards the mayor's place and continued further down. That angered the mayor and he indicated that we should spray paint and wait there. And some boys who had come to delete the names came and we started beating them up. And we started shooting at the boys. We used Mr Biyela's vehicle and it was driven by Thanduxulu. Lucky Mbanju and myself were doing the spray painting. The car would drop us at a point, we would remain behind spray painting and the car would pick us up later. And that is how we proceeded.

MR WILLS: Do you know when you shot at these boys I see that there were some serious firearms used. You again used your 357 Magnum and Lucky used either a shot gun or a pistol. Do you know if any of these boys were injured or killed when you shot?

MR HLONGWANE: They were very close. I can say that they died. We were leaning against an electric transmitter I think. That is when we hit them, that is when we shot at them. I want to believe that definitely they must have died.

CHAIRMAN: How many boys were there Mr Hlongwane that you shot at?

MR HLONGWANE: There were about 2 or 3 but it was certainly not 1 person. These were people who had come to delete what we were writing.

CHAIRMAN: And when you say they were boys, were they young boys, little kids or young men?

MR HLONGWANE: No these were youngsters like myself. They were just of my same size then.

MS KHAMPEPE: And how old were you then?

MR HLONGWANE: What year is this by the way?

MS KHAMPEPE: 1992, 1993.

MR HLONGWANE: I was about, I am 30 years now. I think therefore I might have been 26 or so. I cannot be sure.

MR WILLS: Yes Mr Hlongwane I am wanting to conclude your evidence now. It seems to me that you started getting involved in these murderous activities at a very young age. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: I was actually 16 years.

CHAIRMAN: Quiet please.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that you continued for in these activities for at least a period of some 8 years? From 1985 to the point of your arrest in December 1993?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And in that time you have killed many, many people is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And it is also correct that you cannot even remember the names of the people, of many of the people that you have killed. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now there, the people from eSikiweni are here and I believe there are some people from Mandini here as well today. Do you want to say anything to them as a result of your activities in the eSikiweni and northern Natal region?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. I would like to apologize unreservedly even though they may regard me as a beast. But what I would like for them to do is to look at the Inkata and National Party government, these were the people in power or position and if these people give you instructions you would not have objected because that would endanger your life and that of your family. There is therefore so many people that I have killed.

CHAIRMAN: Please be quiet, let Mr Hlongwane continue. Please let the witness continue.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane are you in a position to continue or do you require a 5 minute break? I ask for a 5 minute break at this stage? Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRMAN: We will take a short 5 to 10 minute adjournment and then we will reconvene and continue.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Wills are you ready to continue with Mr Hlongwane?

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson. I express my appreciation for that indulgence.

CHAIRMAN: I notice Mr Stewart is not here. Is he around or can we start without him?

MR WILLS: I presume we can start Mr Chairperson. I have asked somebody to advise him that we are proceeding.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane we got to the conclusion of all the events that you described. Now my understanding is that since your arrest you have participated extensively in various investigations done by various people, mainly policemen in regard to giving information about the large number of cases that you are aware of. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that in this regard that you have from an early stage spoken to the Goldstone Commission?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You sat down with Mr Vany of the TRC and you spent weeks with him going through all of your dealings and telling him as much as you could remember about them. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Sorry that was Mr Vany of the ITU, the Investigative Task Unit, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You also spent some time with Colonel Marion and Colonel Dutton and you told them about everything you knew about these incidents. Is that correct.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You met with a special advocate who was attached to the Attorney General's investigative team of Pretoria and you told them all about your incidents in Ermelo and you assisted and are going to be used as a State witness in Ermelo. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You in fact flew in a helicopter with Mr Vany and others and you went to a particular, you pointed out a particular bush camp north of Ulundi that was still operating. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct, it was the Mpolozi Camp.

MR WILLS: And as a result of your intervention in that regard this camp was closed down. Is that right? It is because it was found out. It was a secret camp prior to this.

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And can you remember who was at that camp?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember the people who were found at the camp. We found Mr Philip Powell, Smubengu, another boy whose code name was Swatekisi. Two boys were arrested, Philip Powell was found with ammunition in his car but he was never charged and arrested. The weapons which we found there, weapons like G3's and shot guns were (...indistinct) All those weapons were then taken in by the ITU. The Umfolozi base was then closed down but nobody has been charged or arrested for it. And no one has come to take statements from me. I was with Captain Scotts. We spent some nights at Ituba. The two boys who had been arrested were released the following day. We left that place and that was the end of the case.

MR WILLS: Yes and is it not so that up until this point in time that Umfolozi Camp was another of these secretive camps is that righ? Nobody knew about it?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: By that I mean the authorities did not know about it?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes they did not know.

MR WILLS: It was only the IFP authorities that knew about this camp is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes they were the only ones who knew.

MR WILLS: Now is it also not so that you are prepared to assist any investigator from whatever quarter he comes in order to give information in order that the large amount of crimes can be solved, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And since your arrest there has not been one occasion where you have refused to assist the many requests that have been made on you to provide information?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now why have you been all of these, why have you been assisting so many investigative teams?

MR HLONGWANE: The reason for doing this is that I do not want other people to find themselves in the same situation as we did. The government in collaboration with Inkata used us to kill these people. Therefore I am prepared to fight such violent crimes until the day that I die. I will do this in every possible way that I can. That is my objective.

MR WILLS: Yes, now is it not true as well that you are a member of the IFP Prisoners' Committee, this committee which Mr Mbambo chairs in the prison and that you are working in this committee to foster reconciliation between the prisoners at the prison in Westville?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee. That concludes my evidence in chief.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Stewart do you have any questions to ask this witness?

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane I want to take you back and remind you of the incident you told us about involving the pipe bombs, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR STEWART: And in your oral testimony before us earlier today you mentioned two people being with you. You mentioned Lucky Mbanjuwa and some one you described as your girlfriend, Tabele Txulu. Do you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR STEWART: Now you have said in your affidavit that Zweli Dlamini was also with you on that occasion. Mr Dlamini will come and say he knows about this case but he was not involved. What do you say to that?

MR HLONGWANE: I will say that maybe the mistake was mine.

MR STEWART: So you agree that Zweli was not there?

MR HLONGWANE: I was with Tabele Txulu and Lucky Mbanjuwa. Zweli's name was mentioned by mistake.

MR STEWART: Mr Hlongwane I want to take you back now to your days in Mpumalanga when you were part of the IFP Youth League. Do you remember telling us about that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember.

MR STEWART: And you mention at one place in your affidavit that you were introduced to Mdlanduna or Mr Luthuli at a meeting. Do you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: And I am referring now for the assistance of the members of the Committee to paragraph 19 on page 139. And you say there Mr Hlongwane you one day had a meeting at a school. You remember a well built man stood up and introduced himself as Mdlanduna and you say there you had not seen him before. And that Mdlanduna complained that you being the youth had not been disciplined. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And he warned you about carelessness and if you continued in that fashion the UDF would finish you off. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And is it right that Mdlanduna was concerned about the reckless and careless way in which the youth there were conducting their fight against the UDF, ANC?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And he encouraged you to become more organised and disciplined and to conduct your attacks with a political objective. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Ngubane do you have any questions?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman thank you very much. Mr Hlongwane I know that these incidents were numerous and that they ocurred some time ago but I have instructions to ask you about certain incidents and if you can remember then please tell us. Do you recall the 2nd of August when there was a mass action by the ANC at eSikaweni to remove the KwaZulu flag at the police station?

COMMITTEE MEMBER: Mr Ngubane can you assist me, 2nd August of which year?

MR NGUBANE: 2nd of August 1992, yes thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: I do not remember.

MR NGUBANE: Do you recall or did you participate at any stage in the attack of a house wherein a certain Mrs Mbanjuwa who resided at D950 when that house was attacked do you recall that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember.

MR NGUBANE: Who gave you the orders to attack there?

MR HLONGWANE: Mrs Mbuyazi.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that Mrs Mbanjuwa's neighbours' house was also bombed on that particular day?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is true.

MR NGUBANE: Who were with you when these attacks were conducted?

MR HLONGWANE: It was myself and Izinkabi.

MR NGUBANE: Now is it correct.

CHAIRMAN: Just for the record is Izinkabi that is the people who came from Johannesburg?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that the english name for the word Izinkabi is oxen which are used?

MR HLONGWANE: That is true.

MR NGUBANE: Which are used to plough the fields?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is true.

MR NGUBANE: Was there any member of your hit squad members of eSikaweni present when that attack was undertaken?

MR HLONGWANE: I do not know whether Lucky Mbanjo was there or not.

MR NGUBANE: Now these izinkabi were they brought by Mr Xhosa to eSikaweni?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry by that you mean Mr Ngubane do you mean physically brought?

MR NGUBANE: Not necessarily Mr Chairman. In which ever way they were brought. Now there is a gentleman by the, oh well did you participate in the attack at Ngama's shebeen at any stage?

MR HLONGWANE: Do you mean Paul's shebeen? Yes I was involved.

MR NGUBANE: Yes. Who was with you when that attack took place?

MR HLONGWANE: It was myself and Romeo.

MR NGUBANE: There is a gentleman by the name of Mataba who was injured on his mouth there and he instruct me that he was a public speaker and a marketing person and he is seriously handicapped now. He cannot undertake that. Do you have a special word for him?

MR HLONGWANE: Was he shot on the same day that Ntanda was also attacked?

MR NGUBANE: Well when Ngama's shebeen was attacked.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson I do not like intervening and disturbing Mr Ngubane. With respect I think that the witness's answers to his question about Ngama's shebeen specifically relates to the time when the 4 youths were killed and I think we need to establish whether or not this attack that Mr Ngubane is referring to is another attack or whether it is at the same time so that the witness can get an idea of how to answer the questions.

CHAIRMAN: Yes Mr Ngubane are you referring to the same time, the same attack that Mr Mbambo referred to in his evidence when those 4 people were killed?

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman I believe it was a separate incident. But be that as it may all that I want is whether he wants to apologize to that person or not.

CHAIRMAN: Yes perhaps you can ask Mr Hlongwane how many times did you attack at Ngema's shebeen?

MR HLONGWANE: It was once when Romeo and myself attacked when we attacked these 4 youths.

CHAIRMAN: Was that the only attack? You did not have any other attacks?

MR HLONGWANE: It is the only one that I was ever involved in.

MR NGUBANE: To whoever was injured there do you have an apology for whoever was injured there.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry I have been told that some of the people at the back of the hall cannot hear you. Could you just speak a little bit louder please Mr Hlongwane?

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngubane the testimony before us is that nobody survived that attack. That Ndunda and the 3 other youths were killed. So I am a little confused by the question that you are putting to Mr Hlongwane because I do not have any evidence that anyone survived that attack.

MR NGUBANE: I will not pursue that question. Now do you know Kula School at eSikaweni, Kula a school called Kula?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do know the school.

MR NGUBANE: After your attack of Seranani Hall did you attack the houses that were adjacent to Kula School? You remember you told us about the incident at Hlanganani when you killed people who were in the car and set them on fire? After that incident did you proceed to attack houses that were next to Kula School?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Now Mr Hlongwane it appears to me that you started these evil acts when you were very young, at 16 years of age?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you have only passed standard 6 that is right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And from then onwards were you involved in any other training other than this semi-military training and killing people?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Well I am not sure whether you understood my question. Were you given any other decent training other than this semi-military training and this training of killing people after you age of 16?

CHAIRMAN: What Ngubane wants to know from you. Besides being trained at Koeberg and getting this police training and training that you have referred to already relating to the use of firearms, breaking in, etc, have you had any other training? Have you had any training for a civilian job, let us put it that way?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

MR NGUBANE: You mentioned that at some stage you had targetted Beki Nthuli's house?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: But instead you attacked house number 123, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What caused you to attack house number 123?

MR HLONGWANE: I am not originally from eSikaweni, I thought that I knew Mr Nthuli's house but that was apparently not the case. So when I identified the house, Mr Nthuli's house to the Izinkabi I pointed at 123 and not 125. So that is how the house number 123 was attacked. But we had intended to attack Mr Nthuli's home.

MR NGUBANE: Okay did you make that mistake once or did you make it twice or more than twice of attacking house number 123?

MR HLONGWANE: I think maybe it happened twice or on three occasions that I made a mistake of this nature.

MR NGUBANE: So the instructions that I have that in fact this house was attacked twice you would not be able to dispute that?

MR HLONGWANE: I would not dispute it.

MR NGUBANE: Now at paragraph 105 of your affidavit you say that there was a stage when you were called the Self Protection Unit and on the final day of your training you were addressed by Mr C J Mutetuwa who stressed again that you should stop all the people from going to vote and to eliminate the ANC. Was this immediately prior to the elections in 1994?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Can you elaborate a bit here, how were you going to stop these people from voting?

MR HLONGWANE: The buses and voting stations would be attacked. Nobody would leave the township to go to vote. That is one way I can explain it.

MR NGUBANE: Yes if you say the buses were going to be stopped where were those buses going to come from? Were there any specific areas that were targetted?

MR HLONGWANE: An area of KwaZulu Natal had supplied people who were going to be responsible for seeing to it that the voting process would not take place. They will stop the people from voting.

MR NGUBANE: I see Mr Mtetwa told you that you should stop the people from going to vote. Was he the only one who told you that or had you received prior instructions to do that?

MR HLONGWANE: He is not the only one because Jerry had also mentioned this and Jerry was feared in this province.

CHAIRMAN: Are you talking about Jerry Medunda?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes Jerry Medunda.

MR NGUBANE: Was there a specific programme that was designed specifically for you to stop the people from going to the elections?

MR HLONGWANE: I will say that there was because we had already been told on how we were going to conduct our operation, how we would attack the people. That is the programme that I knew of.

MR NGUBANE: You personally were you assigned to attack a specific voting area and if so which area were you assigned to?

MR HLONGWANE: I think that I would actually go to a place or attack a place where I would be at the time of voting.

MR NGUBANE: And what eventually happened to that plan of yours of attacking areas where people were going to vote?

MR HLONGWANE: All weapons were confiscated from Umpholozi and I also got arrested so the attack was never carried out.

MR NGUBANE: Who took the firearms?

MR HLONGWANE: They were confiscated by the then Captain Scotts together with Mr Howard Vany. Scotts was with Major Aswagen.

MR NGUBANE: Did you receive any specific instruction from the IFP leadership not to attack any more or it was just this arrest of yours that stopped the attack?

MR HLONGWANE: It was because of my arrest. I did not receive any further instructions.

MR NGUBANE: Now at paragraph 94 you mentioned that when you were outside KwaZulu Natal at Ermelo you used to receive cash payment of R800 a month to buy groceries and to look after youself, is it correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes it is as written here.

MR NGUBANE: And when you came back to KwaZulu Natal how did you manage to sustain yourself, how did you, did you get any money at the end of the month?

MR HLONGWANE: I was supposed to receive money regularly from MZ Khumalo but if I was away MZ Khumalo would telephone the mayor or the official there so that I could receive my salary, R800. I would be paid at the end of each month.

CHAIRMAN: Please be quiet.

MR NGUBANE: Now when you were at eSikaweni did you continue to receive this R800 a month or you received more than that at any stage?

MR HLONGWANE: No it was never increased but we would receive maybe smaller amounts from the eSikaweni leadership. For instance when we had hit big fish they would give us money perhaps or maybe sometimes we would have braais. But I would not count that as salaries. They would just be giving us that money because they were pleased.

MR NGUBANE: Who was actually giving you money at eSikaweni monthly, this monthly salary if I may call it?

MR HLONGWANE: Mr Pipi Biyela.

MR NGUBANE: Was this money in hard cash or it was cheques or what was the position?

MR HLONGWANE: He gave me cash cheques. I had never encountered a problem by using these cash cheques. He even carries these cheques to this day. Even if you wanted as little as R5 he would sign it for you.

MR NGUBANE: Now there is a stage when you were taken by MZ Khumalo into hiding, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: I remember it very well.

MR NGUBANE: And when you were in hiding did you continue to receive any money?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I received money from MZ Khumalo. Although we were no longer on good terms at the time. I ended up stealing fowls from peoples' homes. I would sometimes go for 2 to 3 months without money. But as a person working under such situations I could not go into the public. Therefore I would hunt at night, hunting for fowls.

MR NGUBANE: For how long did this happen when you stole peoples' fowls and braaied them? Approximately?

MR HLONGWANE: It happened quite frequently because Mr Khumalo used to claim that the IFP's money was his children's. He will tell me that he would give me money but I should always remember that it belongs to his children and that his wife did not like him giving me the money. And he would go on for quite a long time without giving me money.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry please be quiet so we can continue.

MR NGUBANE: Now let's turn now to the murder of Gidinga at Mandeni, do you recall that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember it very well.

MR NGUBANE: Now there was some concern that the mother of Gidinga did not give you direct instructions to kill Gidinga. Do you recall when you were asked about that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do remember being asked about that.

MR NGUBANE: Now what I would like to know is that after Gidinga had been killed did you have the opportunity of meeting his mother?

MR HLONGWANE: I only saw her at the funeral in the morning when we were going to dig the grave at Island.

MR NGUBANE: Was there a stage after Gidinga had been murdered when in the presence of his mother his dad was discussed? In other words in the presence of his mother and yourself where his dad was discussed?

MR HLONGWANE: I do not remember.

MR NGUBANE: Did you at any stage gain the impression that he condoned this murder of Gidinga?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not think like that, I knew that.

MR NGUBANE: I see. Okay let's move on to this other hit man called Jerry Mdanda, where is he now? Do you know?

MR HLONGWANE: If I were to explain here I can explain where he is.

MR NGUBANE: Yes please do so?

MR HLONGWANE: I just touched upon his background. He is from the MK initially, actually defected from the MK to come and join us and on joining Inkata he did not go to the college. So then sent straight to the BSI.

MR NGUBANE: Sorry Mr Hlongwane to interrupt can you take it step by step so the interpreter can interpret? You said he defected from MK and he joined the police force, just proceed from there?

MR HLONGWANE: After joining the police at KwaZulu there was this police hit squad that was handled by Mr Kanile and Captain Shlengwa. And he was part of this group. There is also this other person called MG, the one Major Zama confused with one of the applicants. And he was together with people like Cyril Ngema and others. Jerry then worked at the police station and there came a time that he left the hit squad to come and, he left actually the police force to come and join the squad on a full time basis. And after that, that is after our arrest there was this that Jerry wanted to do what Thanduxolo our Commander did. Inkata was working hand in hand with the Boers and they knew that Jerry now wanted to write statements, take statements and they silenced him. Jerry Ndunda that is after our arrest yes the ITU together and there was now a need or it transpired that this was now known at Ulundi and when it transpired that there was conflict at Ntuba, he was seconded to go and sort that out at Ntuba - that is Jerry. And they heard that he was coming to testify on our behalf and he was shot at Ntuba. His corpse was taken elsewhere far away and people wondered why he was found at such a sugar cane field wearing a pyjama and big jacket. And people wondered how it happened. That is actually how he died. He actually came to give testimony on our behalf.

MR NGUBANE: Now if I understand your evidence correctly are you saying that Jerry Mdunda wanted to disclose the activities of Inkata and Inkata knew of that and they decided to eliminate him?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

MR NGUBANE: Now one last aspect. You mentioned something about that incident of Nthlengetwa where one of your members was hit with a brick. Do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do remember that.

MR NGUBANE: It looks like that gentleman was severely injured do you know what happened after he had been hit with a brick?

MR HLONGWANE: Matawa took him to hospital and on arrival at the hospital it transpired that he was losing his head. He was hit right here on the forehead. So he must have lost his mind. That meaning that he really completely lost his head.

CHAIRMAN: Please settle down.

MR HLONGWANE: I am saying this because when we were with him at the hospital he would refer to us as comrades and we concluded that he should not be given a gun. And when he died for example he had already lost a hand. But guns that were distributed around, guns that were brought by Humphrey Ndlovo. We also had these hand made guns. He accidently shot himself with one of these home made guns. Shot himself in the hand and he shot himself with an SSG or something and that is how he actually lost his hand.

MR NGUBANE: I see when you pointed at your head what you said in Zulu literally meant that his senses moved from his forehead to his back head, is that correct?

CHAIRMAN: Did he die as a result of that head injury ultimately? Did the head injury result in his death or did he die some other way?

MR HLONGWANE: No that is not the reason why he died. He survived that incident and he went back to his home Stanger where he came from. And when he arrived there as he was alighting from the taxi those whom we were fighting saw him and they finished him off. That is how he died.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewit do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairman we elect not to put any questions to this witness and once again place on record that the persons whom we represent and who have been implicated by this witness deny their complicity in any of the offenses he has testified to. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Hewit. Mr Mpshe do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlongwane I am going to take you back to the incident that took place at the hall where there was that motor vehicle that shone its lights on the building. Do you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR MPSHE: Now you whilst you were testifying you mentioned the fact that Mrs Mbuyazi and others lay on the floor and due to further questions being put to you said it was, they were taking cover. Do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember that well.

MR MPSHE: As I went through your affidavit no mention is made of this incident of Mbuyazi and others taking cover lying on the floor.

MR HLONGWANE: It is exactly as you stated. What I would like to say here is things like for example the cutting of the hand of a person are not part of the affidavit. I am saying this now not necesssarily as an addition but I am saying things as they happened. These things are not included here because the ITU people are the ones who were taking statements from us. They did this hurriedly and after that they took us back to the prison because they were busy attending to many other things and therefore many things here were written down hurriedly.

CHAIRMAN: I think also Mr Mpshe it perhaps seemed to be a not too important detail. It is just a detail of an incident. In the light of the whole incident is not very important the fact that they lay on the floor.

MR MPSHE: I stand corrected Mr Chairman. Now still on this incident you testified that this motor vehicle it did not move down the road. It left the road and parked in front of the road and people thought that they were attacked. Do you remember this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is what I said.

MR MPSHE: Now did you see this car at the time when it was approaching the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: No I did not see it approach. It saw it beaming its light just like the light behind you. It was beaming its light at the hall.

MR MPSHE: Ja but how can you now testify that it did not move down the normal road? It went that way and turned round and went to the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: I said I was inside the house or the hall and one Zondi from Johannesburg came. He is the one who explained that the car drove past the hall and made a U-turn and came back and beamed its lights at the hall. It beamed its light at the hall and people thought now we are being attacked. And they came to inform me while I was in the house. At the time people like Mrs Mbuyazi had already taken cover in the hall.

MR MPSHE: The movement of the car then is not what you saw. You were told in short?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR MPSHE: In your own mind what made these people think that they were under attack? The people inside the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: I think because of the situation at eSikaweni you too would turn off your lights and television if somebody walked past your house. The situation was so tense at the time and that is what they thought. And they concluded that they were being attacked because of the manner in which the lights were beaming at the hall. The atmosphere was bad. One slight mistake, for example a person would draw his gun on suspecting that we were being attacked. People ended up not watching television in their houses. K2 is the only place where they used to watch television because people that used to kill were in K2. They watched television sitting down on the floor. For example we went to some place and we found these people sitting down on the floor and we therefore could not take our aim at shooting them. Places like H1, H2 those are the places. There are several things that I may not have included in the affidavit but I can explain to you the situation as it transpired at the time. I would challenge any member from eSikaweni to stand up and object to what I am saying. The situation at eSikaweni was extremely terrible at the time but only J2, that is where people would play their radios, watch televisions and that is only...

MR HLONGWANE: ...[inaudible] that was the information I got.

MR MPSHE: But you know Mr Hlongwane, you are so emphatic about knowing the mother and even told this Committee where she worked and that you even met her at the funeral and she's the person that told you to dig up the grave first and now you're saying you were told ...[intervention]

MR MPSHE: That is exactly what I'm saying. The person who identified to me as Gendingani's mother is Koti ...[indistinct] who worked at Renkem.

CHAIRPERSON: But most people who know other people's mothers are just told that they're the mother, you don't actually know it.

ADV MOTATA: It's hearsay.

CHAIRPERSON: It's hearsay, it's like you knowing your birthday.

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

MR MPSHE: You testified Mr Hlongwane, very emphatically that you know Koti and you know that Koti is Gendingani's mother, even met her at the funeral and she is the one who told you to dig up the grave faster, you were very emphatic about it.

MR HLONGWANE: I still maintain that even when we had our food, she indeed gave us food, that is what I'm saying. I'm not changing from my previous statement.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, I'm going to make a request to this Committee to request one of the women in attendance to stand up so as to round up this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Mpshe.

MR MPSHE: Do you know this woman?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't know her.

MR MPSHE: If - let her stand up please, if I put it to you that this is Gendingani's mother what would you say? In fact she is Gendingani's mother.

MR HLONGWANE: This is not the woman that I know, I know Koti whom I've been told about. I do not know this person.

MR MPSHE: Good. Thank you, she may sit down.

Do you remember what you said about this woman, particularly the fact that she is - no, no, when you said: "the mother" to Gendingani, is the one who said her son must be killed, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

MR MPSHE: And are you aware now that in the minds of the people in here who know her as being Gendinga's mother, that thing is still in their minds, do you agree with me?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I do but I wonder if you can allow me to explain that when I arrived Mandeni, Shakes and Gadebe told me that Gendinga was a problem and his mother had already agreed that he should be killed. The Koti that I am talking about is a staunch IFP member at Mandeni. If she was a tenant there, let it be clear to this Committee that the information that I received ...[intervention]

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee my intention is not and was never to stay any motions.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that Mr Mpshe and we totally except what you say.

MR HLONGWANE: I was trying to explain that when arrived at a certain area I would be told about a particular person. I am not from Mandeni not from eSikhawini but come from Hammersdale. I am making an example. I apologise in advance if I'm wasting the Committee's time.

If for instance I was told that Zweli belonged to a member, to a certain organisation and maybe his brother is here, if I had been told by the leadership I would have to accept that information as it was. That is why I accepted the information about Koti and that is why I say I know Koti and I it is she who said the person should be killed.

The person that stood in front of us here I do not know but I know Koti who works at Renkem. Therefore it means that because Koti was an IFP member - I think that because Koti was a tenant there, she used that opportunity to get him killed and devise a strategy of claiming that Gendinga was her child. I am not denying anything but what I'm saying is that this is not the person who was shown to me or identified to me as Gendinga's mother.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please be quiet.

MR MPSHE: I understand your explanation very well and your explanation is accepted by myself. I understand you very well but what I want - what I'm driving at now is the fact that this woman who was standing here who was actually the mother, her name needs to cleared since you realise that it was a mistake, Koti was not the mother. Are you still with me?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, and I'm committed to doing that. I understand you perfectly. I am committed to apologising to her about everything. As I've explained before, the IFP in collaboration with the National Party killed a lot of people in Kwa Zulu Natal for engaging in those activities and they used as soldiers in these activities.

What I can say to Gendinga's mother is that I apologise for claiming that it was indeed her who wanted her son to be killed. I apologise wholeheartedly, unreservably but I will also add that the situation was thus because of Koti and the Mandeni leadership.

MR MPSHE: If you move to page 189 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down.

MR MPSHE: That is the killing of an Induna on instruction of Chief Mataba.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR MPSHE: I know you have testified that some of the names you cannot recall. This Chief's name you still cannot recall, this particular chief? You can't recall him?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the Induna?

MR HLONGWANE: I think there's a mistake somewhere here. My 189 is on CG's attack, I don't know who you're talking about.

MR MPSHE: No, no, the one where Chief Mataba had said this Induna must be assassinated because he was against, he demanded the burning of traditional weapons, do you remember the Induna's name? It starts from page 187, paragraph 151.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember what happened there.

MR MPSHE: Ja, that was testified to, the name of the Induna who was killed, do you remember the name?

MR HLONGWANE: I do not remember the name.

MR MPSHE: Thank you. The same again - if the Chair could just bear with me. Now, let's move to page 191, paragraph 155, the incident where your colleague was hit with a brick on the forehead.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I have found the page.

MR MPSHE: I've been informed - actually I spoke to the very victim here and he said his actual names are not as stated here, his names are Izack Mkotliseni Nhlengethwe, would you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember. I think I wrote rather his surname incorrectly.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have caused the person to stand.

Is that the person? Is that the victim?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is him.

MR MPSHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, so then - just please be quiet. So whenever the name Nshleko appears it should be Nhlengethwe?

MR HLONGWANE: Nhlengethwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. N-H-L-E-N-G-E-T-H-W-E?

MR MPSHE: W-A.

CHAIRPERSON: W-A.

MR MPSHE: That is correct.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Now let's move to the last incident, the killing of the so-called ANC painters.

Members of the Committee, I'm sorry, page 200, paragraph 181.

MR HLONGWANE: 181?

MR MPSHE: Ja, paragraph 181. After these boys, the deceased had arrived on the scene, what did they do before you could shoot?

MR HLONGWANE: They were actually erasing what we had written. They had done this before and we had to re-write that message.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I'm obliged to intervene at this stage, I've just been approached to, and it's indicated that there is one of the persons implicated, a Major Zama who is standing in view of all of the applicants just outside and who is making the security around here feel concerned about them being here and they would prefer to take a short adjournment at this stage to resolve that problem.

CHAIRPERSON: We had said earlier we would take a short adjournment at 3 o'clock seeing that we began at half past one. We can take a short adjournment but I might indicate that implicated persons do have a right to attend the hearing and I'd be loathe to excluded an implicated person from attending a hearing because other people may just be afraid of him being here.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I just want to place on record that the persons whom I represent have absolutely no objection and have never had any objection for Major Zama or anyone else for that matter, to come in participate in these proceedings. The objection that was raised by - the objection raised by the security was standing in the hallway outside of the building and facing the persons and making intimidatory gestures, that was the problem, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. For record purposes as to what caused the adjournment. There is a gentleman, Major Zama who is currently stationed at Sundumbili.

This Major Zama was implicated viva voce by Romeo Mbambo. He was here with his Advocate, Advocate Mkhize inasfar as Major Zama's rights are concerned. I had a minute talk with Advocate Mkhize to whom I explained the procedure, to whom I explained what they can do and to whom I further explained their rights as implicated persons.

Advocate Mkhize agreed that there is nothing that can be done now but they would like to be present and refute or dispute allegations against Major Zama, made by Romeo Mbambo. And he suggested to me that they would like to do that, not at this hearing but at the next or subsequent hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mpshe, will a formal notice in terms of Section 30 be issued and then perhaps when it becomes available, the relevant transcript of the proceedings be forwarded to Major Zama and/or his Advocate, Mr Mkhize?

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, that is exactly what I have explained to him and that is our standing agreement.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it also made known to them that if they desired, they were welcome to attend from now?

MR MPSHE: That I did mention specifically but the advocate said that it would not be wise for them to be in attendance, they prefer to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Is there anybody else who wishes to say anything? I think we can continue. Mr Mpshe, you were asking Mr Hlongwane questions when we adjourned.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Incidentally, the question I was asking was the last question Mr Hlongwane had responded to that. No further questions.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I did not hear the answer because at the stage the interruption was made by the security so possibly Mr Mpshe can just indicate to me what that answer was, thank you.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, if the Chair allows. My question to Mr Hlongwane was, I asked him as to what did these boys do after arriving before the shooting and he said they were busy rubbing off what they had written on the boards or on the street, that was the answer, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Just one point, thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Hlongwane, you've given evidence that Shalganani Hall is in fact in an ANC section, is that correct, J1 Section?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Is it J1 Section or is it H1?

MR HLONGWANE: J1.

MR WILLS: And is it also not true that Shlanganani Hall is the Municipal Offices for Esikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

MR WILLS: Shlanganani Hall constitutes the Municipal Offices for eSikhawini? All the Councillors offices are at Shlanganani Hall.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And also at that stage, is it no so that all the Councillors were in fact IFP supporting Councillors?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Moloi, do you have any questions?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Hlongwane, you stated that at a stage M Z placed you in hiding at the camp for a period of time, how long was that?

MR HLONGWANE: I would like the Committee member to explain the camp that he's talking about.

MR MOLOI: I refer here to your paragraph section of your affidavit referring to hiding somewhere, and you stated you were taken there by M Z Khumalo and left there for some time and that Lalelane, his son, was also providing you with food and so on.

MR HLONGWANE: I understand what you're talking about now.

MR MOLOI: Yes, how long did you stay there?

MR HLONGWANE: Although I cannot be precise because I stayed for quite a while at that camp. I cannot be sure how long it was but it was quite long.

MR MOLOI: Do we talk here about the question of weeks, months or how long?

MR HLONGWANE: It's not weeks, I think it could have been a year or even two.

MR MOLOI: And then at a stage you were a fugitive from Justice, avoiding arrest by the Empangeni Police?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I was eventually arrested by the Special Branch from Durban.

MR MOLOI: And subsequent to your being taken away and hidden at that camp, you were again deployed and committed some murders, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true but I was in a tent, not a camp.

MR MOLOI: Yes. But thereafter you continued to kill and carried out your instructions?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOI: And you also went then to Mandeni and stayed there and continued with this course of killing?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not stay at Mandeni but I would be fetched from the tent if I was required for certain activities and then I would return to my tent thereafter.

MR MOLOI: So you never stayed in Mandeni itself, is that I understand you?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not stay at Mandeni but I did have friends that I would visit. I never really had a place of my own at Mandeni.

MR MOLOI: Now these incidents that followed upon your being taken to that camp up to the stage of your arrest were committed whilst you were staying in that tent and just moving out and coming back to that tent?

MR HLONGWANE: I would leave the tent, commit those activities and then return to the tent unless maybe if I'd gone out to see my girlfriends, but my area or rather my place where I stayed was the tent.

MR MOLOI: And the Empangeni Police never came to know about your movements?

MR HLONGWANE: The police did not know about my movements but those who were in contact with M Z Khumalo knew about me whereabouts. M Z would contact the Special Branch and tell them about my whereabouts but I would not be arrested. So those police knew where I was.

To just explain a bit about Mandeni, there is Sundumbili belonging to the IFP or the ZP and the SAP exists at Noone(?). M Z had contacts within this area and then I would be told of what was happening. Now police ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down.

INTERPRETER: The applicant was saying that his movements were known by every policeman, the Noone and Sundumbili area, even Mr Zama himself. I would like to explain this matter further.

We worked for these people and if the Commission can allow me I will explain something about a certain boy ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down. Please, please, be quiet.

If the Interpreter could just tell us what was said, we couldn't hear over the din.

INTERPRETER: Certainly. The applicant was expressing the view that the people who were in charge knew of their activities and in fact they had sent them on these activities and their distress today that those very same people have deserted them and come here and they have the audacity as that shown by Mr Zama, to come here and intimidate them in this fashion.

He also expressed the view that they are not intimidated by people like Mr Zama, they are prepared to divulge all their activities that they committed at that time so that the Commission and the public will know that these people indeed were responsible for those activities.

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Please, please settle down, we must be able to continue.

MR MOLOI: I am finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moloi. Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one Mr Chairman flowing from the questions asked by our colleague Moloi.

You said that whilst you were placed in this tent you were fetched from time to time to continue with these activities or operations to put them in your ...[indistinct]

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is what I explained.

ADV MOTATA: I want just to know from you, who fetched you, do you know the people who came when you were required to undertake an operation that you should go there and who brought you back after completion of the operation?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, it was Mandeni officials, people like Bongani Gadebe, Shakes Nhlongo and Chief Mataba himself. Those are the leaders who assisted me and they would transport me if I was required to carry out activities.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Hlongwane.

Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motata. Mrs Khampepe, do you have any questions?

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have two questions for Mr Hlongwane.

Mr Hlongwane, you have been a very loyal and committed soldier for your organisation, as you have stated in your evidence and because of your loyalty you were given a plethora of orders to execute, which you executed quite flawlessly as you have stated. Did you believe that when persons gave you orders to execute, those authority to give those orders? That is my first question.

MR HLONGWANE: I would like to explain to the Committee that I did not believe but because there was collaboration between the IFP and the National Party we committed these crimes without worrying, not because we felt that these were acceptable activities.

M Z Khumalo worked closely with the SAP so that when we committed crimes we would do this without worrying.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think Mr Hlongwane, the question asked by Mrs Khampepe is that you received orders from a number of people, did you believe that those people who issued those orders to you had the authority and the power to give you those orders?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they did have authority.

MS KHAMPEPE: You received a series of instructions from one, Bongani Gadebe for instance.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's true.

MS KHAMPEPE: How old was Mr Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: He is quite an old person, he's quite old.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was he attending school at Tugela High School at the time he gave you orders to execute?

MR HLONGWANE: No, he was not a student there but I think his children or other people's children reported to him. He worked as a truck driver.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now when he gave you instructions to eliminate people - I think you were given instructions to eliminate a student at Tugela High School, you were also given instructions by Mr Gadebe to eliminate the Majenga family.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you believe that Mr Gadebe had the necessary authority to give you such instructions?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I strongly believed this because even Dalaxolo will say that Gadebe was a trustworthy man. Dalaxolo gave me the assurance that Gadebe was a trustworthy man. Before we had arrived at the area, Gadebe was responsible for the killing of the people.

MS KHAMPEPE: So were you advised by Mr Luthule to accept instructions from Mr Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: The person who was closest to me was M Z Khumalo because I was no longer close to Madlanduna. The person that I worked directly with was M Z Khumalo. At that time I was very close to M Z and I would tell him of my activities and he would recommend me highly and congratulate me.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you advise Mr Khumalo of the operations that you conducted on instructions you received from Mr Bongani Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not tell him directly but I did inform him of the activities that I carried out. Mr Gadebe, being a local leader was the one who gave instruction on who had to be killed so if M Z Khumalo arrived I would tell him of my activities. There was nothing that he didn't know about what I was doing. I used to get him in his house ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please, please, settle down.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, can you wait for the interpreter so that we can hear what your answer is?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

MR HLONGWANE: I am trying to explain briefly that M Z is not just a person of authority but he was very close to me and he knew all my movements, that is what I'm trying to explain.

MS KHAMPEPE: But were the operations which you conducted in Mandeni known to M Z Khumalo?

MR HLONGWANE: As a soldier there was nothing that he did not know because I reported to him and he knew about the death of ANC people in Mandeni and he was very pleased about my presence at Mandeni.

What I'd like you to know about M Z is that he is very intelligent. He can ask you a question just wanting to tease out information from you but my response to this question is that he knew about everything that went on.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now in your testimony you stated that you were paid over and above the salary that you received whilst you were a policeman for killing a big fish, you would be paid something for killing a big fish.

MR HLONGWANE: I don't think the Committee Member understood me very well. I did not say I was paid but if they were pleased or happy they would not say they were paying me for the death of those people, they were just giving me this money because of their excitement but not because I was being paid for murders. I've never been paid for killing a person.

MS KHAMPEPE: So was this gratitude never expressed in monetary terms?

MR HLONGWANE: No, they did not pay me, they were just giving me money. If I tell you to go pick up Romeo for example and thereafter I will pay you, that is granting payment but that's not how it happened.

MS KHAMPEPE: I understand what you are trying to say. All that I want to elicit is whether the gratitude which they expressed for killing of big fish was never made in monetary terms, you were not given like R50 to say: "Well, you've killed a big fish, we are very grateful Mr Hlongwane, for having done so other than the dinners that you enjoyed for killing a ...[intervention]

MR HLONGWANE: I tried to explain that if you killed someone you would be given anything, you could be taken to hotels. They thank you in various ways, not just in monetary terms.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now, who would take you to the hotel?

MR HLONGWANE: Bebe Biela and Mrs Mbuaze, those are the leaders from eSikhawini.

MS KHAMPEPE: And from the hierarchy, were you ever given any gifts, like being taken to the hotel by any of your hierarchy?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember - can I continue explaining? I remember when I went to Umfolozi, I was around a table with Prince Gideon Zulu discussing the killing of people. We were drinking tea in the morning and his bodyguard and Mutwa were also present. We were drinking tea, the two of us and he was saying: "You see I didn't know that M Z was really talking about a good soldier like yourself".

We used to discuss these things. People like M Z Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu would be so pleased and give me whatever they could.

MS KHAMPEPE: My last question Mr Hlongwane, I want to know whether, when you were given instructions, whether looting was explained as another form of attack which you could launch on perceived ANC persons?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that was exactly the case.

MS KHAMPEPE: And who explained that?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know whether I can refer you back ...[intervention]

MS KHAMPEPE: Was that explained by the local leadership or the hierarchy?

MR HLONGWANE: Local leadership but at the time I was not even closer to people like Dalaxolo Luthule and others. I was also at the time rubbing shoulders with people like Zakele who were members of the Executive. That is at the time when Zakele ended up fighting leaders at Ulundi because the argument was that Nkethle's Inkatha was doing something else and Mamkhunu's Inkatha was doing something else. That is the last time I had this experience but we never took anything from people during the time of our attacks.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Khampepe.

Mr Hlongwane, you've told us about many operations in which you were involved in, from your affidavit it's apparent that you were involved in many more which we will hear about later and that during the course of your stay with the hit squad you killed many, many people and you had no hesitation in killing people if you ordered to do so or if the situation arose, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that on the day of the big rally when we heard there was a big fight and many people died, that you didn't kill anyone that day?

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

How did it come about that you who were very efficient at killing people didn't kill anyone that day?

MR HLONGWANE: I can explain this, how it happened. What happened there was that my members were at work, many of them that is. I was now using a different strategy, using people like Teleweni and Amabuto, I was now being commanded, my gun was loaded.

The first house, if I were to tell you, the first house that was burnt down - on leaving the stadium that is the first house, Mr Willy's house and this was done in the presence of the police. I was just walking there and I did nothing until people like Romeo held a meeting, that is when I started taking part.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you kill anybody that day?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I did not even draw my gun. You know I walked around and I kept in cover.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've also stated that you killed people when you were ordered to do so and you've described a number of killings, killing school children at schools and Ginam Mkhize putting his head out the window and shouting: "Catch the first bus" and you killed the person who happened to be close to you, killing family members like the Mbajua's etc.

Did you at any stage during your career as a hit squad member arrive at the conclusion or believe that the orders or some of the orders that you were receiving were unreasonable and should not be carried out because of their gross unreasonableness and their gross illegality or did you just accept an order without thinking about it at all?

MR HLONGWANE: You would not differentiate between good and bad, you just had to carry out the order and do as it was instructed. That was a command, that is a matter of life and death because if you did not carry out the command people like Mbambo would kill you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you get to a situation that - you might get to a situation where if you're ordered to kill a whole group of school children, better you die than the group of school children.

MR HLONGWANE: For example, if Dalaxolo gave me an F1 and instructed that I should shoot school children or whatever, I would do exactly as I was instructed. It was not for me to decide who should killed or not but I just had to carry out the order as it was instructed, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have questions arising from questions that have been put by the panels?

MR WILLS: I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I do not have questions arising from what the members of the panel have asked but during the break something was pointed out which I believe I made a mistake when questioning the witness but the instructions I get them, they flow some of them, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to rectify?

MR NGUBANE: If I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Mr Hlongwane, do you remember I asked you about the attack at Ngema's Shebeen, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I do remember that.

MR NGUBANE: In fact, what was intended there was the attack at Umbuso Zwane's Shebeen. Do you recall any incident in which you were involved when there was an attack at Umbuso Zwane's Shebeen?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know Umbuso Zwane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no questions arising Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR NGUBANE: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit?

MR HEWIT: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to make it clear that what I'm going to put to

the witness is not based on his testimony but as the Chair and Members of the Committee will recall, certain people were killed at bus stops and shebeens and we've been having people coming to enquire, so I just want to find out from him whether he knows of a particular incident, that is all but it relevant to this hearing. If I'm allowed?

Mr Hlongwane, do you perhaps remember the shooting of two people, a man and a woman who were in a car in J1 Section eSikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE: What car was that?

MR MPSHE: We don't have the description of the car but the registration number was NUF 20254, it was on the 2nd of August 1992 at about 9p.m.

MR HLONGWANE: If I were to explain maybe you would understand. There was a car that was attacked when we were waiting at the bus stop. I don't know whether it was indeed hit. The driver was apparently hit on the head. I don't know whether that is the car you are referring to or whether you're talking about something else.

MR MPSHE: I also may not know but I was just wanting to find out if you may recall. The man who was killed in the car is Elias Mbanza and the woman who was with him is Tembi Dladla of eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, my intention isn't to thwart Mr Mpshe's questioning or to thwart the process of full disclosure in any way but I think that in fairness to the witness there must be a ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: A bit more specific I think, yes. But I suppose it's difficult for you Mr Mpshe, to be more specific.

MR MPSHE: Indeed Mr Chairman, it is very, very, difficult as I've indicated at the beginning. We have here incidents where people were shot at bus stops, at shebeens and I'm just trying to find out whether he knows about these things. But to tell him that this was the colour of the car and this is how the people were killed is difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, he said that he was at one occasion present when a car was shot at and he thinks somebody was shot in the head.

MR MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairperson. I follow it with another question. I'm not trying to put him that he is lying or whatever, I'm just trying to establish to the benefit of the victims who are sitting herein. I don't see the basis of my learned friend's objection at all.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, if Mr Mpshe mustn't get me wrong and it's important this, I'm not objecting to the question, I'm just trying to assist the witness in being a position - we all

know, we've seen the affidavits, how many incidents that he's committed and it's very difficult to remember all of them and obviously the more particularity there is in regard to Mr Mpshe's questions the better. But if he's not in a position to give particularity, well then I don't see that we've got an alternative but to proceed in that way. But it is not my intention to thwart his line of questioning or to object to it in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.

MR MPSHE: May I be allowed to proceed and round this up Mr Chairman, thank you.

Would the name Alias Mbanze or Tembi Dladla ring any bell in your mind?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't know the names.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlongwane, you may stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, sorry Mr Wills, that concludes your applicants?

MR WILLS: Yes, it concludes the applicants that I represent in relation to the eSikhawini matters. I might add at this stage Mr Chairperson, in view of certain, the process of the violence that took place we are considering calling an expert witness who can explain and possibly assist the Committee with the nature of the violence that occurred in Kwa Zulu Natal.

I know that we have severe time limitations and we are sensitive to that but once we have a record we will be in a position to assess this more appropriately but obviously this will only occur, should it happen, at the next hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Wills, as we all know this hearing is proceeding on a piecemeal basis in that we've been to Durban, we've dealt with some Claremont incidents, we are here dealing with eSikhawini and other Northern Zululand incidents, we will be down at Mpumalanga and there's also incidents to be dealt with that occurred in the other Mpumalanga, the old Eastern Transvaal, so there will be time to call witnesses at a later stage if you feel it necessary and obviously we won't in any way stand in your way in that regard.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, that does conclude what I have to say at this particular stage of the proceedings, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, I see that it's now five to four, it might not be a very opportune time to start because we would hardly have started when we will have to adjourn. We adjourn at 4 o'clock and I think it's important, the Interpreters have had an extremely busy day today, Mr Hlongwane spoke at great pace and I think it would be unfair to continue after 4 o'clock or for their sake at least and also I think we are all very hot as it's a very humid day today. So would this be a convenient time? Could you just perhaps just indicate tomorrow will you be, which applicant will you be calling if any?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, thank you, indeed now would be a convenient time. I intend tomorrow to commence with the evidence of Dawid Zwele Dlamini and as Mr Wills has done, my intention is to cover the eSikhawini and surrounding areas incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart. We will therefore adjourn now until tomorrow in this hall at 09H30 again tomorrow morning when we will start with the evidence of Mr Zwele Dlamini.

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, just for the record ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear or see who is speaking.

INTERPRETER: I just wanted to state Mr Chairman for the record, that the Interpreters had a very difficult time interpreting the witness, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.