MR LEWIN: At this stage I’d like as I mentioned earlier, we do have with us, I’m not quite sure what one calls him now. Director, Director Steve Ngwenya who has very kindly said that he will come and give us an account. He was a lawyer himself in Ermelo, practising. He represented the Wesselton Action Committee at one stage. He had bombs thrown into his office, two petrol bombs and he is now the Director of Land Government and Housing for Mpumulanga. We’re very grateful that he has come. We’re very grateful that he will give us some of the background to the questions that we have asked. This will not be a sworn statement but it’s more by way of explaining for us, for the media what the background is to these stories that we are hearing. Mr Ngwenya, could you come forward. As I say, we won’t swear you in because this will not be a statement in the normal sense but it will be explanatory. If you would like, we can give you a briefer to sit by you but I don’t think that we - but we’d like to thank you very much for coming. If you could press the red button .

MR NGWENYA: I understand that at one of the meetings of the Wesselton Action Committee this concern was raised and these particular individuals who are now committing crime under the name of structure which associated with the Action Committee had to be approached to be repremanded. That’s when the struggle started. These so-called ...(indistinct) wouldn’t accept that. I believe that night or the following morning they then attacked all the leaders of the Wesselton Civic Association. They were ................. Agenda’s. Whilst we thought we were carrying the crime, the violence, people had other agenda’s. So the violence continued. People were attacked, killed. People’s houses were destroyed.

And at that time, as you have indicated, Mr Chairman, I was acting on behalf of the Wesselton Action Committee and most of the people who supported that Committee. Well I can tell, if an IFP member, a Black Cat member had committed a crime and there were eye witnesses and so on, that case will get nowhere. It will either be, the docket has disappeared or the witnesses are not available or the charges will be withdrawn, if it ever reached court. To an extent that at some stage I couldn’t even believe what Prosecutors were doing themselves. That’s why unfortunately the discussions I had with some of the Prosecutors years later, they were so sorry for what they were doing because they trusted the police and didn’t know that the police were fooling them.

Well as I’ve indicated cases against IFP members were mostly withdrawn or never reached court. I also had to run around to try and defend most of the so-called Comrades who were arrested. At that time I had a Secretary who was supposed to know my diary but I can tell you the police knew my diary better than me and better than my Secretary because if they arrested a person in Davel, they will tell that person that you won’t see Ngwenya come to apply for bail for you because Ngwenya shall be busy in Carolina or Piet Retief that day. They fabricated so many cases against the Comrades. I’ll say I was in court every day during that period, in three different courts every day finalizing cases. I would say in all the cases that I did there I think only one percent of those people were convicted because all those cases were fabricated. Now the torture which people suffered, the sad stories that you hear here, I’ve heard more than this because at that stage my office was just an extension of the Wesselton Action Committee office or the ANC office. People were phoning me from their homes. You’ll hear old women crying, saying, Ngwenya here are the police beating my children, what are you doing there ? People would run away from their houses to come and sit in my office there. We kept on talking to the police but they didn’t know what was happening so nobody knew what was happening.

ou know, at some stage my own office was bombed as you indicated and a guy who had been in detention at the police station came out of the police cells then straight to my office to tell me who burnt my office. How it was organized by the police. I took that guy one evening to go and make an afidavit with an Advocate in Johannesburg. The house where I took him from that evening, that very same night the house was bombed and the lady that stayed with him died. You know some of the things that I’ve heard from the people, it’s hearsay and I must say that unfortunately some of the information I got was that relationship of Attorney and Client, so I will not be in a position to disclose names of people and some of the incidents but I can mention that one of the stories that I heard was that when these people were taken to Nlundi, they were found to be weak. They were asked to go back to Wesselton to kill women, to come back with their private parts to be used as muti. Those people who were in Nlundi were trained there in Nkuza and I believe some of them had to be trained with those that went to Caprivi Strip and so on.

had the opportunity of listening to the first few guys who defected from the IFP who eventually went to the Commission to make their revelations. Some of the horrible stories they told there have never been recollected up to now. I don’t know, I think I should stop there for now.

MR LEWIN: Mr Ngwenya, thank you very much. Perhaps we could just ask a couple of questions by way of clarification. Tom ?

MR MANTHATA: Mr Ngwenya, where a situation of this nature is obtained more especially between the community and the police force, would you say that those who were in the police force in this are at the time, are they still here ? If so, is there a way where together with those people, there can be a dialog over the past conflicts?

MR NGWENYA: No.

MR LEWIN: Thank you.

MR NGWENYA: I would say that most of the police who were here and who were alleged to have perpetrated those times, are still around but one thing you know, I don’t want to generalize. It’s not all police who were involved and without any brief from the current Captain Beukman, I think, when he came here after the then Station Commander was transferred, things became much better. We started to develop a relationship with him. We could go to his office. I could see he was also a bit confused about what was happening because, you’ll understand these things better. The uniformed police and the security branch worked in different fashions, in different ways.

MR MANTHATA: Thanks.

MR LEWIN: Yes, my question was also going to be in relation to the present. What the situation now is. What the community is and what can be done to heal the wounds as it were.

MR NGWENYA: I will say the situation at this stage is quite normal. You will believe that people have forgotten the past, reconciled but one thing I can tell you, I know of victims who still feel bitter and strong about what happened to them. Their house being destroyed, their family members being killed. I don’t know what one could do with those you know. It’s so difficult, if you were there and you saw what happened to people but you were lucky you survived. Sometimes you try and say to an old man, that happened, can we forget and forgive these people. He says, maybe it’s because it was not your child.

MR LEWIN: Mr Ngwenya, thank you very much for coming.

MR NGWENYA: Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Ladies and gentlemen at this stage I have one or two announcements to make. The first one concerns statement taking. Lebo, our chief liaison person is here with statement takers. If there are people who feel they need to make a statement ......

MR LEWIN: Mr Zondo, can you hear me through the microphone ? It’s okay ?

MR ZONDO: Yes, I can hear you.

MR LEWIN: Could you tell us who’s with you.

MR ZONDO: It’s my mother.

MR LEWIN: Mr Zondo, before asking Doctor Randera to lead you in your evidence, could I please ask Tom Manthata to swear you in.

MR MANTHATA: Nsongelwa Zondo, can you stand up. Raise your right hand and swear that the evidence you are going to lead is going to be the truth and nothing else but the truth, so help me God.

NSONGELWA ZONDO: (sworn states)

MR MANTHATA: Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Thanks very much. Mr Zondo, I’ll ask Doctor Randera to lead your evidence. Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Mr Zondo, welcome to you and to your mother. We have heard so much to-day already on what happened in your community of Wesselton, not far from here. We have a full statement from you. I want you please to first tell us something about yourself and then take us back to what you can remember in 1992 and tell us what happened to you.

MR ZONDO: It was on a Saturday afternoon, around about one o’clock and I was coming from a tavern and there had been a mass funeral Jweli. It was at about one p.m. As I was proceeding towards my house, I saw a group of people. It was quiet at that time except for this group. I had went home to have something to eat. As I was crossing the street I came across three elderly men and they went past. Thereafter I heard some gunfire and when I turned around I realized that I had been shot and they continued shooting me. I ran into a neighbour’s place where I hid myself in the toilet. When I got there I threw up and I realized that I was losing my consciousness. I went out of the toilet into the house and I went out of that yard. That’s where I lost consciousness. I fell. When I came to, I was being picked up by some youths who were putting me into a car and ferrying me to the hospital. When I got to the hospital, I was sent to Kalafong Hospital. That’s where I was operated upon. When I came back from Kalafong I was re-admitted to the hospital. I was transferred back to Kalafong where I underwent a second operation.

DR RANDERA: How long did you stay in hospital ?

MR ZONDO: I stayed there for two months.

DR RANDERA: And when you came back ? During the time that you were in hospital, did you lay any charges against people you may have recognized who were involved in that march ?

MR ZONDO: Yes, I did open a case.

DR RANDERA: Michael, let me just go back a little. Tell me, how old are you now ?

MR ZONDO: I’m fifty two years old.

DR RANDERA: Are you working ?

MR ZONDO: No, I’m not.

DR RANDERA: Were you working at the time ?

MR ZONDO: Yes, I was.

DR RANDERA: What was your job ?

MR ZONDO: I was working for the land surveyors.

DR RANDERA: So did you lose your job because you were away for such a long time in hospital or did you lose your job because you felt you couldn’t go back to work ?

MR ZONDO: I wouldn’t have been able to go back because I had these operations, especially in my stomach.

DR RANDERA: Okay. You have a family I presume, with children ?

MR ZONDO: No, I don’t. I do have children but I don’t have a wife.

DR RANDERA: How many children do you have ?

MR ZONDO: Two.

DR RANDERA: Two. Michael, I know we’ve heard a lot about Amakati, the Black Cats to-day but let me hear from you your own understanding of what was happening in that time. To-day we’ve heard stories already from 1990. You’re taking us to 1992. This is almost two years later from the time that things started happening. Let me hear your understanding. I know you said you were coming back from a tavern but were you yourself involved either in the Wesselton Action Committee, where you involved with the ANC at the time or were you just an innocent bystander who got caught up as people marched back from a funeral ?

MR ZONDO: I was not involved in any form of organization, either political of civic organization. I was just a working man. I used to go to work every Monday and come back only on Fridays. I wasn’t involved in any form of mobility or political mobilization.

DR RANDERA: I’m happy with what you said but just tell us what your impression was of the conflicts that were taking place in the community at the time.

MR ZONDO: At that time there was a gang called the Black Cats and there was a lot of violence but where it emanated from I wouldn’t say.

DR RANDERA: Now this person who’s funeral it was, Jweli hey ? He was one of the leaders of the Black Cats. Am I right in that understanding ?

MR ZONDO: Yes, he was a leader of the Black Cats.

DR RANDERA: He was killed according to your statement by some Comrades.

MR ZONDO: I wouldn’t comment on that because I have no knowledge thereof.

DR RANDERA: Okay sorry, I may have read somebody else’s statement. Michael you said in your statement that you haven’t been able to work since 1992. That you’re unemployed ... (interrupted)

MR ZONDO: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: Have you been able to apply for a disability grant ?

MR ZONDO: No, I haven’t.

DR RANDERA: Is there a reason for that ?

MR ZONDO: No, I don’t have.

DR RANDERA: You know about disability grants ?

MR ZONDO: Yes, I do no but I don’t know the channels that I can use in order to be able to speak to the social workers or whoever I have to contact.

DR RANDERA: Michael my last point. Looking back on that time now. I mean we’re now almost seven years. If you were to meet with those people and some of those people I presume are still in your community, what would you want to say to them ?

MR ZONDO: I’d feel very bad. Even though I’m powerless I wouldn’t know what to do to them.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Michael. Chairperson, I have no further question.

MR LEWIN: Thank you. Tom ?

MR MANTHATA: Michael, did you ever come to understand what the Comrades were doing at that time ?

MR ZONDO: I didn’t know anything because I used to go to work on Mondays and come back on Fridays so I was not fully conversant with whatever was going on in that area.

MR MANTHATA: As you were going in and out of the area, you had never met a group of youths that would later be identified as Comrades ?

MR ZONDO: I know that there were Comrades that existed there. I heard that there were Comrades and I also heard there was also a group called The Cats. I never had an encounter with them until that day that I was shot at.

MR MANTHATA: Do you know what the Comrades stood for ?

MR ZONDO: No, I did not know.

MR MANTHATA: And then the Black Cats ?

MR ZONDO: I knew nothing between the Comrades and the Black Cats.

MR MANTHATA: You had never heard about a conflict between the two ?

MR ZONDO: Yes, I did hear that they were fighting but during those fights I wasn’t there.

MR MANTHATA: Yes, one is not saying that you should have been at their meetings or at their fights but one wants to say that as a member of the community you could have heard people talking about these two groups and what each group stands for.

MR ZONDO: No, I’ve never heard.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you. No further questions.

MR LEWIN: Russel ?

DR ALLY: Mr Zondo you do however say in your statement that you were a member of the ANC. Is that correct ?

MR ZONDO: That is correct.

DR ALLY: And that you joined the ANC in 1990. After it was unbanned.

MR ZONDO: That’s true.

DR ALLY: Do you think that those people who attacked you may have known this ?

MR ZONDO: I think they knew.

DR ALLY: What makes you think that ?

MR ZONDO: It’s because I didn’t know them. Maybe they knew me because even now I can’t identify them. I do not know them.

MR LEWIN: Doctor Randera ?

DR RANDERA: Michael sorry, I want to come back to two issues. One is, you said you had made a statement to the police. Was there ever any follow-up ? Did you get anything substantial from the police as far as your statement went ?

MR ZONDO: No, they never came back to me. The last time I saw them was when I submitted a statement.

DR RANDERA: Okay. Michael, I just want to follow up from what Mr Manthata was saying. This issue of you were in the community, you heard some discussions about the Black Cats and Comrades but you knew very little about them. Now as we travel throughout the country and people come to talk to the Truth Commission, to us, we often hear and particularly, and I don’t want to sound as if I’m categorizing people into Black and White, particularly from members of the White community who say we never knew how bad things were. Now, can you understand that yourself because here you are in a small community like Wesselton and I can only see as I drive past, in and out of Ermelo but it looks like a very small community, things are happening in your community. People are dying, people are being shot at and often we hear that we didn’t really know what was happening. Can you understand that, the attitude that is coming through from the White community ? They also did not understand what was happening.

MR ZONDO: Yes, I do understand.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Mr Zondo, thank you. I would just like to ask one question, clarity from your statement and that’s to do with the actual funeral which happened before this incident involving yourself. Do you know how that person died?

MR ZONDO: No, I have no idea.

MR LEWIN: In your statement you said that there was this crowd coming from Mac Guire Street, in Wesselton and they were shouting a slogan? Can you remember the slogan ?

MR ZONDO: Yes, I do.

MR LEWIN: Could you tell us what it was.

MR ZONDO: I have forgotten the song that they were singing.

MR LEWIN: But they were singing a slogan.

MR ZONDO: Yes, I do remember but I don’t have a clear recollection because I was from the tavern so I was a bit intoxicated.

MR LEWIN: As the other Commissioners have said, I think that again we hear your story and we sympathize very much with it because you were obviously caught very much in the crossfire so that you, more than anyone could be called an innocent bystander and as a result of that you have been unable to work for several years now. I think that there’s two things that we need to say to you. One is again to offer our support to see what we can do in chasing up your case as you asked specifically to find out about the disability grant and your possibility of getting that. I think we must also call on the community to assist you. To support you in bringing yourself back into usefulness so that you don’t feel too depressed, that you don’t feel too down. It’s going to be difficult but it certainly is possible. And we would like to issue an appeal to the community to assist you in that whether it’s through the Church or whether it’s through community support. We would like to leave you with the challenge really which is very difficult but a challenge that you also make an effort to regain your strength and to carry on going and going well. Thank you very much for coming.

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