HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 09-04-1997

NAME: NOMBENQANA A. KOTI

CHAIRMAN: We would like to call Nombenqana Albert Koti to the stand please. Are you appearing for Mr Koti?

ADV MATUIS: That is correct Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Koti, we are going to request to swear you in before we hear your evidence.

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: (sworn states)

REVD XUNDU: The witness has been duly sworn in Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Matuis, you have submitted two memorandums to us. One deals with Mdyogolo, Nosipho Angelina. Perhaps let us start with that one. It is a short memorandum, perhaps you could ask your client to quickly summarise it for us in Xhoza so that we can then direct some questions to him.

MR KOTI: Chairperson and Committee Members, I am extremely disturbed by certain incidents where I was involved. I Nombenqana Albert Koti are 46 years old, have made a sworn affidavit. I am going to start with the incident regarding Mtandazeli Patrick Mdyogolo.

In the above-mentioned year, 1984, although it is mentioned as 1985 here, I was in the employ of the South African Police as a reservist where I was from the 21st battalion of this army and we were based here in Grahamstown.

At the time there were incidents of riots and I was with recruits where we were patrolling Raglan Road and

Albert Street because cars were being attacked in Rockland Road.

We were patrolling those areas. As we were patrolling that street, we were called by Mr Junkin who had a shop in Albert Street, he stopped the van and when he came to the van he reported to us that his shop had been broken into a few moments ago and that I should please take his children to James, a relative of his.

We heard on the radio in the van, Sergeant Dekeda reporting to the police in New Street that a boy was found (indistinct), where he had been deceased, but had no wounds. Sergeant Dekeda was making this report from New Street.

Junkin was called and I said to him can you see it is bad in Joshua as well and also Makanaskop Bottle Store had been broken into and Junkin was surprised by this and he took these, this man's children to James.

In the next few days I heard rumours that Mtandazeli Patrick Mdyogolo had been shot by me. I went to Junkin there and then and asked him if he had also heard these rumours that I had shot Patrick Mdyogolo at Jole's. He then said to me that if they wanted me at court, they wanted him at court that they should contact them and he provided a number because he was with me at this time of the incident, and other policemen were deployed at Jole's.

We then went to court. Captain Nel was in charge at the time, we went to court. Although I don't see him here in Grahamstown any more, he had the occurrence book of the charge office because when we are deployed to places it is recorded in the occurrence book who is deployed where and I was recorded as having been deployed at Fingo and he gave the explanation at court, saying that Koti was working at

Fingo Village and he had not gone to the other area.

I was then acquitted, found not guilty and set free to go.

CHAIRMAN: In her testimony Nosipho Angelina Mdyogolo said under oath that you Nombenqana Albert Koti did not participate in the killing of Mtandazeli because you were in the van, so we just want to place on record that the witness did say that you weren't responsible, but the Commission would like to put a few questions to you in trying to establish the truth.

Were you working in one group?

MR KOTI: I think there is mix up somewhere. You talk about Mdyogolo and then you talk about me having been in the van. I think you are confusing the incidents here.

CHAIRMAN: Which is the incident where they said you weren't involved?

MR KOTI: If I understand correctly the incident of Nontle Koliti, in the death of Nontle Koliti.

CHAIRMAN: We are now talking about the Mdyogolo incident. Do you say that you weren't even present there?

MR KOTI: No, I was not.

CHAIRMAN: So you were not even present where this incident took place?

MR KOTI: No.

CHAIRMAN: But you were working as one group and you were a reservist in this group?

MR KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: When you got back from your deploy, you would get together and report to each other so you knew exactly who had killed Mtandazeli?

MR KOTI: I never heard who had killed him because I was at

this other place because if you got back before the others, you would make your report and then go off duty.

CHAIRMAN: Who did you report to?

MR KOTI: We reported at the charge office.

CHAIRMAN: Who was in charge?

MR KOTI: It was Captain Nel.

CHAIRMAN: Do you know where Captain Nel finds himself these days?

MR KOTI: No, I do not know because he was transferred to Port Elizabeth while I was still here and I don't know what became of him.

CHAIRMAN: So in your team it could happen that if someone was killed at any certain place, you would not get together at the end of the day and share your reports with each other?

MR KOTI: No, if an incident occurred anywhere, the people who were present there would report it before going off duty and it would be recorded.

CHAIRMAN: Reverend Xundu?

REVD XUNDU: I would like to put a question Mr Chairman, with regards to paragraph 3 where reference is made to Mtandazeli Patrick Mdyogolo, with reference to the turbulence and the political unrest. If you say that there was a break in, it means that it had nothing to do with the politics of the time? The break in at Mr Junkin's shop?

MR KOTI: It had to do with the toyi-toyi because some elements within the group, were criminal elements and while the toyi-toyi was taking place, they would participate with the intention of - with criminal intentions.

REVD XUNDU: It is not very clear from this affidavit, that it had anything to do with the toyi-toyi. It comes across as a criminal event, but I am trying to establish from you whether it had anything to do with the toyi-toyi?

MR KOTI: Yes, it did.

CHAIRMAN: Let us go to the second matter, the case of Elizabeth Koliti about the murder of Nontle Koliti. We would one again like you to give us a summary of your affidavit in Xhoza.

MR KOTI: As I said in my first affidavit, what was extremely disturbing here is that I also have children. We were investigating a shooting incident. A White person had been shot dead in J-Street the day before where they were digging a trench, Mr Wewege, he was working for the municipality and we heard information that this shotgun belonging to a policemen who had been set alight, Mr (indistinct), had been used in shooting this White man.

And while we were here in J-Street this gun was rumoured to be in (indistinct) and it was to the north of Mr Sonwabe's yard in M. We then stopped and discussed how we were going to go in, when children started shouting from L-Street.

At the time municipal police were called Amangundwana or rats and these children started shouting to us. Hey you Amangundwana and I was driving the van at the time and my partner said to me let me go and look at these children that are shouting at us.

He then crossed J-Street and K-Street and he passed a lady who was selling things in a certain yard, called Nothincia. I then heard a shot and I got out of the van and ran that way immediately.

And I found him coming out of a gate in K-Street which the lady, the previous witness testified about, which was

facing these children and I asked him what is the matter Khadi and he said I shot and children fell.

I jumped passed him there and then over the fence and found the one laying near the door and others were scattered near the toilet, it was warm on that day and the child was wet with perspiration. I then got an umbrella and said to, asked somebody to hold this umbrella over this child while I call some back up and also an ambulance.

There is a lady that also shouted and wanted to know, Nombenqana, why did you shoot these children. You are going to bring them back. And this other lady said no he is not the one that shot them, that man shot them, the one that is smoking and Mpukumpuku was smoking a cigarette at the time.

And they said that it is that man who is smoking. I quickly went back to the van to call the other police Captain and asked them to call an ambulance ... (tape ends) ... quickly came back and they were taken away. Mpukumpuku was taken to the police station to go and submit a statement about this incident and we were charged, taken to court in connection with this incident and in court I said that I would like the court to go to the scene because there was a dispute over a bush which was near a toilet where the children were and Constable Rhade's statement said that he did not see beyond this bush.

Back then this bush was still very small, it has since grown very much. I think the one gentleman on the Committee was present there in that court where this matter was heard, where we went to go and look at the scene of the incident.

The court went to the scene and measured the distance from where I was seated to where this little bush was and found that this bush was still very small at that stage and

that one could easily see people behind that bush. And he passed away before this matter could be finalised.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Sandi.

MR KOTI: That was the inquest, we were not formally charged, the matter that I am referring to was an inquest where he was a suspect.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Koti, you spoke about a 21 Battalion, were you a soldier before you became a policeman?

MR KOTI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: When were you a soldier?

MR KOTI: From 1970 to 1972.

ADV SANDI: When did you join the Police Force?

MR KOTI: In 1980.

ADV SANDI: When did you resign?

MR KOTI: In 1993.

ADV SANDI; Why did you leave the Police Force?

MR KOTI: I resigned.

ADV SANDI: What was your rank at the time of your resignation?

MR KOTI: I was a Sergeant.

ADV SANDI: Were you a Sergeant at the time of your resignation?

MR KOTI: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: The person you referred to as having said you shot at Mtandazeli, do you know the person?

MR KOTI: No, I do not know the person.

ADV SANDI: Have you heard about the person?

MR KOTI: No, I haven't.

ADV SANDI: You have never seen the person?

MR KOTI: No.

ADV SANDI: Why would the person say that you shot at Mtandazeli?

MR KOTI: I do not know sir because there were so many things that were said about me. A policeman Madola was burnt at - somewhere in the location and it was said that I was that policeman, and one lady said that it was not. There were rumours that I was the policeman that was burnt and the one lady said that I was not.

ADV SANDI: Am I then getting the correct impression in saying that it seems that there are people that don't like you very much, that are always associating you with certain events?

MR KOTI: When you are accused of doing something which you haven't done, it is quite obvious that the person doesn't like you.

ADV SANDI: You heard Ms Mdyogolo saying that at court there was a White policeman who was saying that you could not shoot, were you present in court when this policeman said so?

MR KOTI: No, I did not see him.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear that there was a policeman who gave evidence in court saying that you could not shoot?

MR KOTI: No, I never saw him.

ADV SANDI: If there was one, would he have been laying?

MR KOTI: Yes, because at that time I had a licensed firearm which I still have up to this day.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much Mr Koti.

CHAIRMAN: I am trying not to use the word Amangundwana, what does it mean? Was it used to describe municipal police?

MR KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: The people working for the municipal police, who

were they working for? Who was in charge of them?

MR KOTI: They were working for the Government.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, but who did you report to?

MR KOTI: We reported to the charge office, even the dockets were sent to the charge office where people were charged.

CHAIRMAN: Who assigned your duties to you?

MR KOTI: There were Warrant Officers and Lieutenants who were in charge.

CHAIRMAN: Who was it at the time?

MR KOTI: It was Nel.

CHAIRMAN: Not that one, the one that is there now, what is his name?

MR KOTI: He is known as J.J. Nel.

CHAIRMAN: So when you and Constable Khadi left on that day, Nel had assigned you the duty of investigating the shooting of a White man?

MR KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: Why did you as municipal policemen have to investigate the shooting of these people, was it normal in your duties?

MR KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: Did you also investigate the shooting of students, school children?

MR KOTI: Let me say that mostly where it was said that someone in the location had a firearm and used it, we had so-called expertise in that field.

CHAIRMAN: I want to know about the shooting of school children. The shooting of a school child, was the investigation normally given to you or did you investigate the shooting of Whites?

I am trying to define the difference between the

shootings which shootings you people investigated?

MR KOTI: Which child are you referring to?

CHAIRMAN: The child being referred to here in - Nontle Koliti.

MR KOTI: Nontle Koliti was shot by the policemen whom I was with, how could we investigate this matter if he was shot by my partner? If I shoot somebody I cannot conduct the investigation, another policeman has to conduct the investigation.

CHAIRMAN: What I am trying to say is did Nel assign any policeman to investigate the shooting of Nontle koliti?

MR KOTI: When Nontle Koliti was shot I called the Captain and policemen from town and they then referred it to the policemen in town to investigate it because the municipal policemen were involved in this.

CHAIRMAN: Who investigated the shooting of Nontle Koliti?

MR KOTI: I do not know, but there was an investigation.

CHAIRMAN: Was - did you also have to submit a statement?

MR KOTI: Yes, Ii did.

CHAIRMAN: Can you recall who you made a statement to?

MR KOTI: No, I cannot.

CHAIRMAN: When you returned after the shooting of this child, as you say it was you and Constable Khadi, you went and reported to Mr Nel?

MR KOTI: I said that when the police and the Captain came, Khadi left with the police to make a statement in town and Nel and them were all present there, writing down everything. There was nothing more which we had to report, because they were present at the scene of the crime.

CHAIRMAN: And you also made a statement?

MR KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: What was the effect of the statement which you made?

MR KOTI: It is what I said there that Khadi shot at this girl.

CHAIRMAN: Were you a witness for the family that Khadi shot this girl?

MR KOTI: The Attorney said that I should not say that Khadi shot the children, hence we went to the scene of the crime. I was told to say that I was with Khadi.

CHAIRMAN: Did the Attorney ask you not to say that Khadi had shot?

MR KOTI: He told me not to say that.

CHAIRMAN: Did you explain that Khadi shot this person, shot the girl? So would the court records reflect that you actually said from the beginning that Khadi shot this girl? Were there any steps taken by the municipality to compensate the family for the loss of this girl? Did that not upset you?

MR KOTI: No.

CHAIRMAN: Did you ever come into contact with the family of this girl after her death?

MR KOTI:No.

CHAIRMAN: Didn't you ever think or deem it important to meet with the family of this girl?

MR KOTI: How?

CHAIRMAN: By going there? You were the person who was present when Khadi shot this girl, didn't you ever deem it important after the accusation that you had also shot this girl that you should go to the family and try and explain to them about Khadi having shot this girl?

MR KOTI: They had heard it that day already because this

lady that was selling vegetables had told them and even then if you were a suspect in a location, your house would be burnt immediately or if they knew, if they were after you and you went to a particular house, they would go to you at that house and corner you there and people would be regarded as informers thereafter.

CHAIRMAN: So are you saying that you don't have any problem with these people, that you are living harmoniously?

MR KOTI: No, there is no problem.

CHAIRMAN: Ntsiki Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Mr Koti, legally speaking when someone breaks the law before you, for example when someone steals before you, what is your duty as a policeman? When anyone, when you as a policeman see someone killing another person, what do you as policeman have to do?

When you see a policeman shooting or you see somebody shooting anyone else or killing anyone else, what is your duty as a policeman?

MR KOTI: I explained that like Khadi who had shot someone before me, I called the Captain to say what was happening.

ADV SANDI: Before Khadi shot this girl, you say in your statement that you were in J-Street and there were children who were insulting you, calling you Amangundwana and Khadi got out of the car with his gun, saying that he was going to see who these children were.

Did he tell you what his intentions were?

MR KOTI: No, he said he was just going to see who these children were.

ADV SANDI: Armed with his firearm? What did you think he was going to do when he went there?

MR KOTI: I didn't think he was going to do anything because

they were still very small. Because when somebody called me Amangundwana, Amangundwana refers to a mine rat, a rat found in mines and I didn't regard it as an insult.

ADV SANDI; At the time Mr Khadi had already shot these children, did you ask him why he had shot at these children?

MR KOTI: I did.

ADV SANDI; Why did you not include that in your statement? Why did you not say in your statement that you asked?

MR KOTI: I did say in my statement that I asked Khadi what was happening now and he said I shot the children.

ADV SANDI: Why did he say he shot these children?

MR KOTI: In his statement he said that he was being shot at by someone on the other side and he was firing back. And then it became apparent that there were children behind this bush. And that is why the court had to go to the scene of the crime to see whether he would have been able to see these children behind this bush or not.

ADV SANDI: Finally Mr Koti, in all your years as a policeman, has there ever been a time when you made a mistake with hindsight, you see that you did something wrong? Has there ever been anything wrong which you as Mr Koti have ever done?

MR KOTI: No, I have never done anything wrong.

ADV SANDI: And is everything that you are here to dispute today, false allegations?

MR KOTI: Yes, the one is an allegation and the other one, I was not involved in.

ADV SANDI: Are you very unfortunate to be accused of incidents where you were not involved?

MR KOTI: An incident where I was not involved.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Koti, we thank you for having come and answered our questions.

We would like to inform you that we would like to have another opportunity where we can contact you and obtain further information from you in our quest to provide the families of the victims with the truth so that there can be reconciliation so that when the police move around in these communities, they can do so freely and with a clear conscience knowing that they have made peace with these people.

We thank you for having taken the first step in trying to assist us here by what you did today. Perhaps there are still many more questions which we will have for you after having contacted this Mr Nel who you referred to and also others who have been involved in this incident.

We would like to get to the bottom of this so that we can make the truth available to the family of the deceased, so that they can deal with this matter. We will not make a finding at this stage, but when we are contemplating making a finding which is detrimental to you, we will definitely inform you through your lawyer and you will be allowed to make further representations.

We thank you.

MR KOTI: Thank you.

--------------------