MS SOOKA:

[indistinct] cell phones switched off - it is very rude to the witnesses who are giving their testimony to have your cell phone going off during their witness. We would also like to ask that if you move into the hall, you remain there until the witness finishes giving their testimony.

It is very disturbing to hear the chairs move and the noise of people walking in and out and we would plead that as far as possible, you remain in the hall until such time as the witness completes their testimony.

We now call mamma Flatela to take the witness stand please. Mamma Flatela you’ve indicated to us that you want to speak in English. We are very happy to have you here, could you tell us the name of the person who is sitting with you, we would like to welcome her please.

MS FLATELA:

It’s Ms Cecilia Flatela my sister-in-law.

Cecilia you were welcome, thank you for being here - mamma will you stand so that Mr Potgieter can administer the oath please.

ADV POTGIETER:

You can sit, the second Ms Flatela.

NOMBI ETHEL FLATELA Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER:

Thank you very much, you may be seated.

MS SOOKA:

Nombi we’d like you to tell us in as shorter time as you can a little bit about yourself and your political background please.

Thank you - I am a mother of three sons in Kimberley, I am a nurse by profession. My political involvement started when I was still a young adult. I have been very involved in the ANC activities which actually at a time led to my arrest during the State of Emergency. Because I think the reason was I was then working in the DESCOM which is a detainee’s support parents committee because we use to help the children with funds who were in Bougroep and Transvaal Road.

And the only thing I really experienced is let me say I am not sorry to have been active in the ANC. The only thing which I am a little bit sorry, I was never happy at work, because I use to be called Winnie Mandela. I make myself Winnie Mandela. But well because of poverty and everything I had to stick out working. But as from today - as today I am still active in the ANC.

I have been instrumental in building up the Women’s League in the Northern Cape when the ANC was un-banned, I was one of the people who was called to organise for the Woman’s League and most of the branches I launched in the Northern Cape - thank you.

MS SOOKA:

You’ve have come today to tell us the story of your son who disappeared - will you tell us about that please.

MS FLATELA:

Okay, my son Khotso Flatela was born 1967 in Kimberley. He attended school St Boneface from primary to high school. But he was expelled when he was doing Std 9 because of his political involvement. In 1985 he was briefly detained and his charges were public violence. But after three months they were withdrawn.

But shortly after that he was again detained for they said that it was an alleged murder of an informer. He stayed for nine months in Bougroep and then again the charges were withdrawn. After that it was in December when they were withdrawn of the very same year, I think it was in 1985.

And then he came out and still continued with his activity. He then belonged to the then GAZO youth organisation, which was a [indistinct] student organisation. So when the police started harassing him again I skipped the country, that was immediately after the 21^st of March when we celebrated the Sharpville day, so we skipped after that, late March - early April.

I never heard of him, I never knew where his whereabouts were. Until when I first heard about him, I got a telegram from Lusaka - the telegram stated that he met with an accident but it was not stated what kind of accident. So as a mother I phoned Lusaka, but I can’t say who answered the phone because he didn’t disclose his name. He said to me, the person who was talking to me - no we have never sent such a telegram, we don’t know of such a thing.

Okay, but this thing worried me time and again. So as their lawyer when they were still at prison was Chris Naidoo of Johannesburg, I went to Chris Naidoo in Johannesburg. I wanted him to at least to find out for me what has really happened. So when I got to Johannesburg, Chris Naidoo phoned Lusaka because I had the phone numbers on the telegram. The telegram was signed by comrade Alfred Nzo.

So Chris Naidoo said that Lusaka said he must phone back after an hour and then we waited - and then after a hour the phone came back from Lusaka, they said that they never sent such a telegram. But deep down in my heart, I knew that something must have happened to this child. How can people of the organisation who our leaders can sent such a telegram and then there is nothing is like that.

So Chris Naidoo advised me to come back home, that I must just stay put at home, he is still going to investigate this thing. Then I sent a message I left with him, I said Mr Chris Naidoo if the child is dead, you must please ask them not to bury him, I’ll try my best to go to Lusaka, at least to be [indistinct] So after three days, I think it was on the 18^th of December, because I received the telegram on the 12^th of December and they stated that the child met with an accident on the 7^th of December.

MS SOOKA:

Take your time.

MS FLATELA:

On the 18^th Chris Naidoo ‘belled’ [phoned] and said that they have confirmed that the child did die in a accident, but they can’t say what sort of an accident. So I prepared myself to go to Lusaka, but when Chris Naidoo phoned he said that and unfortunately they said that they buried the child on the 16^th of December. I don’t know why they did that because I asked them that the mother said that they must not bury the child if the child is dead.

Okay, so but all and all I went to Lusaka. When I got to Lusaka, we were housed in a sort of a guest house, the mother of that house was Ms Kwana I don’t know was it her real name or was it a combat name. But she said that she was from Swaziland. So I asked around a little bit was there any funeral on the 16^th of December around here and then the only thing he could tell - she could tell me - she said that the only funeral they had was an elderly man who died of natural causes.

Then I don’t know what to think and then okay, we slept because I left with my sister. The following day comrade mamma Ruth came to us. And again I asked her how did this child die - and she repeated that she died in an accident - what kind of an accident - no a car accident - was he driving or what - what has happened - no it is just a accident, a car accident.

Okay I left it like that, so after about 30 minutes while we were sitting with mamma Ruth, comrade Steve Tshwete and Alfred Nzo came to us and then they just told me that I should be brave - I must not cry because they did get the report that I’ve been - also an activist - very active in the movement and they thank me for that. But all in all another story emerged after I’ve met comrade Steve Tshwete and comrade Alfred Nzo, they told me that no the child didn’t die in Lusaka. He died in Luanda, which was now a total different story, he died in Luanda.

And they had to bury the child - when I asked them where did you bury the - no because there are no more [indistinct] in Luanda, it was already nine days the child had died so we had to bury him. And then mamma Ruth said to me, okay since there are comrades MK-comrades who usually come when their families come and visit them, they come once a week - so you will have to stay for the week here, and then the plane which leaves for Angola goes only on a Tuesday.

So we will go with you at least that you can see your child’s funeral - your child’s grave and you’ll meet some other comrades who know you there, who will be very glad to see you. Okay we stayed there for a week, but the Monday mamma Ruth came again and said it’s a pity you can’t go to Luanda or Angola because the planes will be fired, will be shot down by the Savimbi troops. I was devastated, my heart was broken, then I asked mamma Ruth - mamma Ruth what do you mean, what am I going to tell the people at home - at least if - at least if I saw the grave at least I would feel a little bit better and I would believe that the child is dead.

Especially now there are so many stories, the other one comes with car accident in Lusaka, now the other comrades come with in Luanda - now what should I believe, really what should I believe. Then I asked mamma Ruth okay mamma Ruth since then I have just come here for nothing, going back heart sore, will you give me the death certificate so at least there are policies which I’ve included him, that I can go and claim that money. And then mamma Ruth said no because it’s Christmas time, it’s holiday it was already over Christmas - I stayed for two weeks there, since it’s Christmas time the offices are closed and all that.

Within two weeks time you will get the death certificate. Up till today I am still waiting for that death certificate. Mamma Ruth came back from exile, I went to her again, I kept pestering her to tell me the truth what is the real truth and where is the death certificate. At the end of the day we became enemies.

So I don’t know till today if only this Commission if my child is - I am going to accept that he is dead, but really it is heart sore to be told lies - because at the end of the day there was another comrade who was also in exile with Khotso. When he came back, I met him, in fact I thanked him for what he did, because he went to my place and told me that comrade these people have been misleading you. They didn’t tell you the truth, I know the truth I was with Khotso, he landed on a landmine.

Now when I ask mamma Ruth - mamma Ruth why did - why have you been telling me lies all these years - it’s eight years I have been suffering - I wanted to know my child how he died, she just said to me - no I only told you what I was told, just like that.

I think the only thing I am going to ask from this Commission is just to tell me that - to find out the truth for me, how he died, I mean he - it doesn’t become so painful at least when you know where did your child end, how he died and only if the leadership of our organisation could just tell me the truth.

Mamma I know that it is very painful for you, but I do need to ask you a few questions so that we can get some clarity. You said that you were told that he in fact had died in Lusaka but when you got to Lusaka you were told by comrade Tshwete that he had actually died in Luanda.

MS FLATELA:

Yes.

MS SOOKA:

You’ve mentioned in your statement to us that you met comrade Tshwete and comrade Nzo afterwards and you asked them about your son’s death again.

MS FLATELA:

Yes.

MS SOOKA:

And you didn’t get any response - do you want to tell us about that please.

MS FLATELA:

When I met comrade Nzo and comrade Steve Tshwete - as I’ve said comrade Nzo was evasive you know, you can see a person when he is evasive. The only thing he said, he said that it’s a pity that children had to run away from the system in South African and then come here to be killed - be killed by I don’t know - he just say be killed. I didn’t know by whom, and in 1991 we were at Reaofela Resort at a ANC conference. I met comrade Nzo, I went to him because in fact I was not going to ask him anything about Khotso, I just went to him as a person I’ve met, way back in exile.

And I greeted him and I asked him do you remember - do you still know me, and he said I don’t know - I said comrade don’t you remember I was in Lusaka you know where that - no I don’t know you - I don’t even know that name of your son, that’s the answer I got.

Sorry may we have quite please, you mentioned that your son’s friend Larry came back from Lusaka and he told you about what happened.

MS FLATELA:

Ja.

Could you give us Larry’s proper name please.

MS FLATELA:

It’s Larry Louw - I don’t - Moleko - Moleko - I think the Tswana name but usually call him Larry I don’t know his right name or what - but it’s Moleko Louw.

Can you tell me exactly what he told you please.

MS FLATELA:

I think it’s ’91 - when did this -I think it was in ’91 he came to my place, greeted, because I knew him, they were together with Khotso all in the youth league with Khotso. He said that to me mamma when I came home, I gathered that the organisation has been lying to you, you don’t know actually what is going on or what has happened to your child. I am here to tell you - your son was sent out on a - I don’t know he called what - to scout around you know - enemies to scout around and then he said that they were four.

And as they were working, they stepped on a landmine and they were hurt both legs. If the seniors wanted to help him he could have survived, but they were left there to bleed to death and only reported them at the camp the next morning, I don’t know it’s the truth, but it’s exactly what he told me.

Did he give you the names of the other people who were part of that mission - the scouting mission.

No he didn’t give them - me the names but he said that they were four - but he didn’t give me the names.

Do you think that you were mislead because the was embarrassed about the fact that they were left to die there.

MS FLATELA:

You know what - I think you know such a lot of things, I really don’t know, but I’ll - maybe come to one conclusion after the Truth Commission has helped me, I think so many things go through my head everyday, I don’t know what to think.

Mamma are you aware of the fact that there have been different Commissions of Inquiry which have been instituted by the ANC themselves, there was the Steward Commission, the Motshanjane Commission and there was the Douglas Commission.

At any time - let me ask you first - are you aware of the fact that there were these different Commissions of Inquiry.

No I am not aware.

Did you never go to the ANC offices when they came back from exile to ask them about what happened to your son?

I went so many times, I went so many times - but I don’t know - I never just got right treatment from them I don’t know why, but really I frequented this offices especially when mamma Ruth came back, because she was the person I met in Lusaka.

Were you - did you ever after Larry had come to see you, did you ever go back to the ANC offices with the information he had given you and asked them about whether that was correct or not.

I went again to mamma Ruth and told her and the answer she gave me - she said I told you what I was told, that’s the answer I got.

This is a very difficult question because why do you - you said after - in your testimony that you become enemies with her, is this because you did not believe that she was telling you the truth and you constantly harassed her for an answer.

Yes I question - went to her asked her to tell me the truth, because I linked her, I - she was the only link between myself and Lusaka - the two of us - she was my first link, so I kept on pestering her, but at the end of the day we were no more actually friends.

Mamma your story is a very painful one, one which a number of mothers I think are - the problem is one which many of them are suffering with, but they don’t actually know what happened to their loved one’s who went into exile. I think that we - we will try as best we can to find out what did happen and then come back and tell you. But it is a difficult story and we feel for you. I would like to ask the other Commissioners if they want - if they have any questions for you.

Mamma thank you for your story, we appreciate the fact that you’ve been such a [indistinct] and we grieve for you and we know that peace will only come to your heart once you know what has happened to your loved one, thank you for sharing that with us.