MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: The next witness is Winifred Nkosi, Ms Winifred Nkosi and the briefer is Mr George Molebatsi.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. We will ask Glenda to swear you in. We have just decided, we have just changed, the facilitator will be Mary and Glenda is going to swear you in.

MS WILDSCHUT: Mrs Nkosi, will you please stand to take the oath.

WINIFRED NKOSI: (Duly sworn, states).

MS WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much, you may be seated.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Mary Burton.

MS BURTON: Good afternoon, Mrs Nkosi.

MRS NKOSI: I greet you, Mrs Burton.

MS BURTON: Can you hear me properly through the ear-phones, can you hear the Xhosa translation well?

MRS NKOSI: Yes, I can hear you.

MS BURTON: I know that you have been here all through the day and you have been hearing other people make their testimonies, and I am sorry it has been such a long and tiring day for you. But I know also that your story makes up part of this history that we are looking at, and that you were very active at that time. You were a member of the United Women's Organisation. In fact, I think you held office in that organisation. You had also a very terrible experience yourself during that time. So we would like you to tell us about it, please, in your own words.

MRS NKOSI: Thank you, Chairperson. I am going to talk about my own experience in the container. From the day that those containers were brought there by my priest, I was there, I was working there, but I won't go there. I also have witnessed a lot of the things that people have shared with us today.

I am going to take it to make things short. I live in New Crossroads. I started living there in 1982. I experienced some difficulty in the area, from the young generation and the fathers. The old men and the youth, how it started I don't know. How it started was that we as women, we as women cannot understand how it all happened. I was the chairperson of the UWO in the Western Cape. I tried to get in touch with other women in places like Guguletu and other areas. We tried to seek ways of trying to address the situation. Because I felt that it didn't need outsiders. I went to other men during the day, at the school, when there was a meeting, a women's meeting. At that time we were talking about the issue of rent. I asked that the men should actually put us in their discussions, as women who have no husbands. Because when you talk about the youth we don't know who you are talking about. We also feel that we are mothers and fathers. This man said he would take it up to the other men.

He took up this issue with the other men. And there wasn't a straight answer, there wasn't any report back per se.

However, these men had decided that I had come with a bad omen, because I came as an organisation that was going to divide them with their women. I am coming here as Poqo At that time the women were very happy with the organisation, this women's organisation. We hadn't taken any actions yet. I was still planning on how to meet with people from Crossroads. As far as I was concerned, we were concerned about the release of Mandela. It was clear that I had fallen. They had taken a decision that I should be removed, because they saw me as a trouble-maker. I was referred to as ANCA, being the African National Congress. I asked what it was. I respect the ANC. It was clear that I had to be removed, I was referred to as Mrs ANCA. I had heard from other men that love the ANC, that I should remove myself.

I realised that I wasn't going to give up this seat, I wanted to take part in the discussions. We wanted the patrols of the youth and the men to meet. It had been weeks since the patrolling had been started. I waited that they would actually come and speak to me. I reported to the women at the meeting.

Before I had been addressed, I was instructed to get out and I realised that this was so. I left for one evening and slept elsewhere. I stayed in the house near the window and I could see men running and jumping over the fence, entering my house. Some were wearing berets, others had balaclavas and they had white sheets over their bodies and they were knocking and no one opened. Someone said that I will survive.

That particular night, towards the morning, an old man was burnt. They said she has been very lucky, repeated that she has escaped because will never stop this trouble whilst this lady is here. So I decided I didn't want to go away from that place because I wanted to see what was happening, because many people in Khayelitsha, in KTC knew me and they worked with me, even though they worked with me under cover. Some men from KTC, they would give me a place to hide and then I would go away from my house.

On the third night I came back. My house had been broken into, everything was upside down, dishes were outside and then I could see this thing is getting serious. I went to Timbec, so I used to go and put up at Mr Mark's place, and then come back secretly, just to hear from what is happening. Then they would tell me that they want you because you have brought trouble here.

So there are so many places that I go to to attend meetings as an executive member, and then I heard a rumour that the old man is coming back, that is Mr Mandela, we must be strong, strong. So we decided to be strong and so where one day, when they found me, I crept to my place just to see, because the doors were broken down. Just to see if this is still standing, if the walls are still intact, but some household goods were missing, dishes laying outside.

There was this young child who was attending at Sipho at that time. I used to be running around with her. So they went to the school. They wanted this child. The teacher said no, this child has not been to school for quite some time.

So they found me that particular morning, whilst I was trying to check in the bathroom. They came in and then they said your car has been shooting us all these nights, but my car was kept at a friend's yard, and I had the keys and the house keys were with me. So I didn't understand. But they didn't give me a chance to explain. So they were coming from a meeting place, like the dining room. They were dancing and ululating. They were jiving and ululating and saying come, come, come and they didn't hack me, they just forced me. I said no, don't force me, I will come, I will come.

So I got to this place where they were. It is just an open space, it is a meeting place. All the males that I knew was there. I am not referring to those who ran away, but when I looked around, I found sadness in the eyes of some of them, some of them had tears welling in their eyes. Sam and others were there, and they said there is only one thing to do with her, she must go. We must let her go. She must go, I must eliminate her. Then I found one comrade, female comrade, she is in the force now, she was there with some young kids, two girls, about 14 years old. They asked from this kids is this your mother, do you know this lady. They said no, we don't know her; we don't know her. Indeed, they didn't know me. Then they said now you are going to tell the truth.

They called for someone to come and others refused to make their cars available, because these people didn't even have motor vehicles. Then there was a Kombi that was taken forcibly, my brother-in-law's Kombi was taken forcibly. They said they were going to take me in this Kombi. He is a taxi man. So I was pulled into this Kombi. Then I fell. Just when I was about to enter into the Kombi, because I am being forced into the Kombi. So then I fell on my knee. Just

I had a shawl around me, I didn't feel anything as they pushed me in. These little girls were already in the Kombi.

So I sat in the Kombi, I saw some blood flowing down my leg. Then I looked but no, this is blood. When I got to the Old Crossroads, the Kombi was stopped, and I am the one who is being removed forcibly in this Kombi. What this girl, what the previous young lady said, I know the police station she was talking about. I started there. That charge office she was talking about there.

I was taken into the charge office and I waited, they said sit, sit, sit, do you think this is Mandela's chairs. I said no, don't sit, you think these are Mandela's chairs. So I stood up because you had to stand because you are talking to old people. They asked my name, I told them. So they asked where did I come from. I said my kids, you won't know where I come from. I come from so many places. You were born whilst I was moving from one place to another place here in Cape Town.

So they said this one must be taken and locked up in solitary confinement. So they took me next to another old man who was an organiser, Mr Ndula, next to his house was a container. It is just like the old train, steam engine carriages. It is very small, this container. This is smaller than this table. You can't stretch yourself, you must not sit down, you can just stand. Then they closed it and left me there.

After a while two men who claimed to be policemen. This man quite filthy, the one had a gun, the other one had a sabre, like the ones that they use in the butcheries. They opened the door forcibly. And this one put this gun, pointed the gun at me. The other one had a knife. Then they said no, don't start, I will start with the knife. I didn't say anything. They were also tired, because their guns were falling. They were not asking anything from me, but they were pointing these things, the knife and the gun in my neck and they are not asking any questions from me. Apparently they got tired, they were looking at their watches and saying when are we going to be relieved and so.

So in the end I said my children, I just need to go to my place and relieve myself. They said hey, have you got diabetes or what. They said well, it is a disease. They said no, you can urinate on yourself. I could, I tried to prevent but at the end I just let the stream out, I just passed the water, just urinated, standing like that. Then they left.

At about nine another three came to relieve them. Then they said this lady has messed this place up, you can't even sit. Then I urinated again, standing. I couldn't control the urine stream. Then I heard a man's voice, whose voice I knew. I said my children, isn't that Mr Langa who is speaking outside - he is now late, he died. Then they said yes, that's him. Then I said to them please just ask him to bring me some food. They said, this one went. I don't know if he went to Mr Langa, but before I went to bed they took me to the police station and Mr Langa's wife came in with a cup of coffee. I drank the coffee, although I didn't take the coffee at the time.

Then I was back in that big house, they were confronting and convening their meeting. I was also stabbed on this time. I saw this man and recognised Yamile was one of them. So I said and even you comrade, and then again he gave me four peaches which he had. So I thought well, I got the supper and breakfast. So I put up at the police station, at the charge office, on a chair, you know, a chair that was made by joining crates, because the bodyguards, armed bodyguards with weapons, they don't get away, they stand over you. Then they said, threatening me and said people are coming from Crossroads and do some work. Then I felt that maybe they are going to kill me. Then people from Crossroads came in the morning. When I was going to be taken, they said how did you spend your night. I said no, fine, fine, number one. But they said but you will not tell the truth, why do you make children hate us.

It so happened that these men have beaten many children and the children out of anger went back to this man and demanded me and they said bring that lady; that lady is a resident, bring that lady here. So when I came back I saw men and their sons, they had some head wounds from hacking. This boy was also hacked, because he was one of those who was demanding my return. His name was Pumela.

The next day I was taken to the container. The Crossroads people, I could see that they were just, they just give orders, and then they leave me guarded by this dirty policeman. They don't mind holding sharp objects next to you and sometimes they get tired. They continued doing this the whole day.

Then on this second day I wasn't taken to the charge office, I slept, spent a night in the container, standing. They were also drowsy and falling, but there was nowhere they could support themselves. But they were also drowsy, because the place is too small for me to sit down and stretch and cover myself with my shawl.

The third day they said ja, things are now getting to a close. Then they said I must pray because the boss is there. So I said yes, my church is in Nyanga East. Then I said oh, you are the ones who were carrying some - who were wearing some goat skins, making a noise. Apparently the members of my church had come to pray and then I heard that is that your church people who came here, making some noise, wearing some goat skin heads, and on the Saturday they said their boss is there. But I didn't see the boss, they didn't show me the boss, I didn't know who the boss was. But I noticed that Mr Yamile apparently was instructing that I be released, because people were fighting. So he wanted me to be out so that I could talk, as there were no more women. At the time he was ANC.

I spent a night in the container there on the third day. The fourth day. At this time I was just soiling myself with urine because I can't control my urine stream, I just urinate standing.

On the fourth day someone said just give her some water. I didn't recognise this voice, it was a male voice in the morning. Then they opened, they opened from outside. It has got a very big lock. I don't know what kind of lock it was, you know, like a cow shed. Then I was taken to Choeu's place, and then I greeted this old man. He was shocked. Mr Choeu said is this you? I said yes, this is me. They took me into a room. His wife gave me some water, took off my clothes. I washed and then I cleaned my underwear. They made breakfast for me and we had breakfast together, with his wife, we had some egg(?) and some sliced tomato and some brown bread. Then I ate and chatted to Choeu, and Choeu immediately took out a loud-speaker and asked for a loud-speaker. I was taken to - I didn't see the bodyguards at this time.

Then I went to stand in the crowd now, outside Nfolo, not inside the classroom. This man Choeu said now you have made a mistake. This lady is not the one you should have taken. When, if Mbongwane can come here, and see this, you can kill all of us here. Then they were embarrassed and then he said take her, here is the key, take her to Mbongwane's house. I will see you at New Crossroads.

Indeed I was taken to Mr Mbongwane's house. It was said to be his second wife, which I didn't know. Then I spent that night there. I had supper, comrades who knew me came in. Some gentlemen and some ladies who knew me came and we chatted. I had a nice sleep there.

MS BURTON: I just wanted to go back a little bit and establish some of the days and times of this incident that happened to you. You mentioned to us at the beginning the date of 1982. But as I understand it, it was at that time that you went to live in New Crossroads, but the things that happened; the taking of you and putting you in a container, that was in 1986, is that right?

MRS NKOSI: Yes, that is so.

MS BURTON: And you also said at the beginning that you knew those containers, because they were there for the church. Was I right to hear that? The containers that were (indistinct).

MRS NKOSI: No, I do not know about those containers how they got there. I knew Nkola and Zameli, because I used to attend meetings there. I was locked in a very small container which was not fit to be used as a church. I don't know what the purpose of their being there, what they were being used for, but there was a row of them, because I wasn't a resident there. I used to just go there at certain times.

MS BURTON: The containers were quite near this bigger building which you have referred to as a charge office?

MRS NKOSI: Yes.

MS BURTON: But that was the Nkola building, is that right?

MRS NKOSI: Yes.

MS BURTON: It used to be the primary school and was now being used for a charge office and to keep people?

MRS NKOSI: No, Nxolo was the school. The charge office - Nkola is a school. And the charge office I was taken to is next to Nxolo, next to a project called Nkola health project.

MS BURTON: Yes. And the police, you mentioned police persons. Now were they police or were they police in the same way as the charge office was not an official charge office. Were these police people from the area? Not official policemen?

MRS NKOSI: I am not going to say these were not policemen. I am not going to say these were not policemen, you know, in the legal sense of police, because they were called police and they had guns. That is why I am only saying they were just dirty policemen.

MS BURTON: That was another question I wanted to ask, is about the guns. You also mentioned bodyguards who had weapons.

MRS NKOSI: Yes, yes, there were, there were.

MS BURTON: And did you see what weapons they were?

MRS NKOSI: There were guns and the big knives that are used in the butcheries. I did see an assegaai, I saw an assegaai but the things that were used pointed at me, it was a big knife and a gun.

MS BURTON: And then afterwards, after you had been released after these days of being held in the container and you were taken to Mr Mbongwane's wife's house, did you need any medical treatment after that?

MRS NKOSI: No, no, I didn't get any medical treatment. I didn't get any medical treatment, I only, when I returned home, I only went for medical treatment. I only went to the doctor when I was returned to my house, because I didn't feel very well, because the wound on my knee had some glass splinters and I wasn't feeling well. So I went to a doctor. I just want to apologise, because Mrs Burton, you must forgive me, my memory about dates and years is not very clear. That 1982 I was estimating, you know, because when you struggled at 28 and then you go, you struggle at 60, your memory goes bad, because even then I used to go to restorations and Black Sash. There are so many things, but my memory is not that good.

MS BURTON: I understand that, Mrs Nkosi, it is quite a long time ago. But we are fortunate because there are records from the time, there are newspaper reports and our researchers and our investigators have fitted all those dates together. So we have no doubt about your story. We know that it happened, it is confirmed by other evidence from the time. But it has been very important for us to hear in your own words about your experience, about the humiliation that you suffered by being kept in that container and not allowed toilet facilities and not properly looked after. For no reason at all, except that you had helped to organise the women, that you had demanded a voice for the women of the area and that you had helped to instruct some of the young members of the community. So you are a reminder of some of the strong women who were working in the area at the time, and you helped us to put together the whole picture of what was happening. I don't have any other questions right now. So I hand over to the Chairperson and see if there are other questions.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary Burton. Glenda has a question, Glenda next to me.

MS WILDSCHUT: Mrs Nkosi, I just have one question and that is those policemen you are referring to, were they known as Amanzilomzi?

MRS NKOSI: No, that time, at that particular time they were just saying police, police. I didn't, they were just mr police, I didn't hear the word Amanzilomzi, I don't know exactly what their functions were.

MS WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just have short questions. You said that - people please bring the noise to a very, very low level. There is some noise coming out from the audience. You said when you were detained there were some gentlemen who said you must be released because Mbongwane would kill them. Can you tell us why they wanted to release you because they are scared of Mbongwane? Did you have some working relationship with Mbongwane?

MRS NKOSI: Just quickly, just briefly. I worked with Mbongwane when I was staying at Unibel. Just after Mr Guys left the chair. Because of the situation, the bad situation in Crossroads, because in that time, in 1976, our kids, my kids were very involved in the struggle. So I was (indistinct). So I got to know the community. No, I was not a committee member at the time, it was just the people. I met people like Memani and I used to call him Max and then I discussed this issue of the fighting between the killings and the fighting. Then I would meet Mr - I used to see them carrying newspapers, not knowing when they ever read it, but that is when I got to know them.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Before, I just want get this thing clear. You mean, initially Mbongwane was working with members of the community?

MRS NKOSI: Yes, he did, because even the establishment, he was a member in the struggle like in the WCCA and we asked his co-operation, and he was always co-operating with us.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just wanted to clarify that. Thank you. Secondly, you mentioned Yamane's name. What was Yamane's role in the community, just briefly. Ja, Yamile, sorry, the name is Yamile.

MRS NKOSI: The name is Yamile, he was an organiser, he was a very active organiser, organising women on the section called (indistinct). When there was something positive to be established by women, they would invite us as to explain to the women what was happening.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So he was on the side of the protesting organisations, you would say.

MRS NKOSI: Yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now at the time you are in the container, what was his role, Mr Yamile?

MRS NKOSI: Mr Yamile at that time, he was still, he was also - he had also run away, because he was being sought after by the police.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: We will ask Mary to conclude and so call the next witness before her concluding remarks. Over to you, Mary.

MS BURTON: Thank you, Chairperson. Mrs Nkosi, just once again, to thank you very much for coming. You have talked even about the early days in Unibel and that helps us to remember that even though today we are looking at one specific moment in the history of the people who lived in KTC in 1985 and 1986, but you remind us that many of them had gone from one place to another, before even coming to settle at Crossroads, and that there was a long history of organisation and involvement in community spirit, that had brought people together, and often then saw people then in conflict when in the past they had been friends and neighbours. So we thank you for helping us once again to understand a little bit more about this very complex situation. Thank you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary, thank you, Mrs Nkosi. You are free to go now.

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