CHAIRPERSON: Greetings Mr Maswanganyi. Can you introduce the person who is with you.

MR MASWANGANYI: This is Mr Maswanganyi.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I will ask you to stand and repeat the oath after me.

PIET MASWANGANYI: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Manthata is going to interview you.

MR MANTHATA: We greet you Mr Maswanganyi. With whom are you, you come along with?

MR MASWANGANYI: It is Mr Hlongwane.

MR MANTHATA: Oh I see. Is he just a friend to you, Mr Maswanganyi?

MR MASWANGANYI: He is a resident from Waterval.

MR MANTHATA: Okay. Thanks. Mr Maswanganyi, what are you doing now, work wise?

MR MASWANGANYI: I work at Metro.

MR MANTHATA: I see.

MR MASWANGANYI: I worked at the Metro company.

MR MANTHATA: At Metro company. How many children have you got, Mr Maswanganyi?

MR MASWANGANYI: I have got six children.

MR MANTHATA: Are they all at school?

MR MASWANGANYI: Yes, they are all at school.

MR MANTHATA: And Ms Maswanganyi, what is she doing?

MR MASWANGANYI: She does some odd jobs.

MR MANTHATA: Okay. Now, Mr Maswanganyi, can you tell us about this certain event when your property was destroyed when you got consigned to Gazankulu from the Louis Trichardt location.

MR MASWANGANYI: Actually I came from Tshikota. This is how the matter started. When our fellow residents were taken to Vleifontein, because we are always querying and complaining that we did not want to be taken away, they were bittered. So there was a meeting. Also the Gazankulu Cabinet was called to this meeting, so that they could also listen to our complaints and grievances. Because they used the threaten us that we have to move, because the Venda people have also been moved, you are only the ones who are remaining here. So we had a meeting. All the people were called to this meeting. People said if you move us, if you are forcefully removing us here, where are you taking us to? You must build everybody four-roomed houses as we already had four rooms there. We resisted this, we fought this and these Boers did not want to give us any proper answers. Up until when all people decided that when they move from Tshikota they will go to the four rooms and the time arrived for us to be moved.

We have been herded like cows. At that time we had no say at all. They were just ordering us to leave. We were told that if we do not move, they are also going to destroy our school. Our children will have no more schools there. There was really a confusion and people had to move. The removal truck killed the Xhosa child, because of this moving, when the truck capsized. We were therefore forced to move to these two rooms, which we did not want. Some of our property we just had to leave it outside. At the time when we moved, it was the rainy season. Some of our property got destroyed and damaged from this rain, because we also did not have any place where we could store it. And the houses we were given when we moved out of this four rooms, we suffered. I told my wife that you must just sleep with the girls, our children who were girls in another room. I slept with my boys in another room. Because in my family all of house are eight. So for us to be four four in room, I took my little girl. So I slept with her in this other room so that we could be four four in each room. We used to cook in the shower room. For that reason people lost a lot of their property, because when I moved out of Tshikota, I was not a Gazankulu boarder in the urban areas when I moved, these people thought I was working with them. The other who have since passed, it was the late Msimekwe, the late Mapope, those two have since passed away. Customarily these people took me to be working with them. If there were problems these people would approach me to ask for assistance.

There was also a certain gentleman, called Mr Maglanla. His house had cracked so he came to me and said, Maswanganyi, my house has cracked. What must we do? Because when I got to the office, they are not offering me any assistance. So I went to the office. I then asked them why are they not fixing this house which had cracked? The town manager told me that they do not fix those houses because they had not built those houses. They said the houses were not built by Gazankulu. So I said, if you are not fixing these houses why are you taking the monies of these houses from people? They said, well that is practice, that is how we work. I said, this is very wrong if you are taking people's money and yet you will not fix what needs to be fixed in their houses. So I fought with the town manager. We had a long discussion, but then it all failed, because they did not fix that house. So each and every person had to fix their house. In these very houses where people had their property damaged, even when we had moved out, they did not give us any compensation at all. They were just ordering us to move quickly and right away. After you had moved and as soon as you had moved in this house, they would destroy those houses, because they thought we would come back. They did not give us any compensation whatsoever.

Another surprising thing was that those people who had built the houses in Waterval and whom were called Rat, when they moved and the Gazankulu moved in, Gazankulu was handing over to them. There was also a meeting called that Gazankulu and Municipal must be united. We also went there, because there were also an urban board. There was a certain gentleman called Mr Matiwantlele. He chased us away and said, we will call you later. Do not get involved in the Gazankulu issues and the Rat people. So we sat there and waited to be called. When the Rat people had run away, we were not called. There was nothing that was explained to us. But what they did, they just suppressed us. They told us that those houses people had to pay 3,500. When we paid this 3,500, whilst other people were paying after three years people would go and ask what is the balance, they would find out what they had already paid, and it was not registered. The houses was still 3,500, even after they had paid for three years. And if there were any cracks in those houses, they were not fixing them, but they kept on demanding money from people. They even used to demand money from the elderly people who were only earning pension, who did not have anything. They insisted on demanding money from these pensioners. The Waterval people are still complaining. They said I must bring the complaints here to this Commission. That they have lost a lot of things. Would it be possible so that each and every person could claim for their damaged property they had? Or to have those houses cancelled, so that they do not have to pay any more.

Thank you very much. That is our request to you, the Commission.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you Mr Maswanganyi. Roughly, if I understand you well, you talk of the loss of property, that loss amount comes to roughly how much?

MR MASWANGANYI: I am afraid you will have to repeat the question. As far as I am concerned, I lost the coal stove, I lost my lounge suite, I also lost my kitchen unit, the metal racks, all those things were damaged. According to what I had bought these things were very expensive. Because the lounge suite, during the time I bought it, it took me 2,500 then. The coal stove was 3,500, the stove that I had bought. The kitchen unit was 415, but I had also bought it as a second hand.

MR MANTHATA: Okay. When you had to serve on the Gazankulu board, what did you have, what did you think you are going to achieve?

MR MASWANGANYI: What I had thought was to help the people with their grievances and their complaints so that they would be settled. If there was any grievance or complaint we would help them so that they would not suffer. Like the aim that we do have now at the moment, even that I am still working on at the moment. Even though that board has expired, these people custom is still come to me when they have got problems so that I can assist. That was my aim and the intention to help people at that stage. We did not want to see people suffering. We did not want to see people complaining and not having any assistance, because God's Word says, love your neighbour as you love yourself.

MR MANTHATA: Yes. My question rests on this fact. Already you allowed yourself to be divided, to serve the Tsonga speaking people only, which meant that you did not have a word for the destruction of the property of people of other language groups, that is Venda and Northern Sotho people. Now which means, right now, we are confining ourselves specifically to some destroyed property on ethnic level.

MR MASWANGANYI: That is the truth. That is the idea behind that we want to help people although we did not want to just look at them who are suffering in front of us. We also want them to have a better life like other people.

MR MANTHATA: No further question Mr Mswanganyi.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

DR RANDERA: Mr Maswanganyi, can you just tell us what were the conditions and circumstances that you found yourselves in when you moved to Waterval? Were there proper houses built, were there clinics, was there running water, was there school?

MR MASWANGANYI: What was there was a school. The school was the only thing there. There was no clinic at all. Facilities that were promised to us were never built. We just found the school amongst all the facilities that were promised.

DR RANDERA: Were there houses, I mean houses .....

MR MASWANGANYI: There were very small houses, two-roomed houses that I have already told you about. There were little houses there.

DR RANDERA: And what had you left to go to Waterval? What were the conditions there?

MR MASWANGANYI: The conditions of where we left, we were accustomed to living in these four rooms that we had. The conditions there were slightly better, but it was not much better, but things got very bad when they started threatening us with this removal and they ordered us to move. So we were always on our edge, because they were forcing us to move.

DR RANDERA: And as far as you know, in that move that took place, from Tshikota to Waterval, were any people arrested, injured or killed?

MR MASWANGANYI: They did not arrest any person except the Xhosa child who accidently died when this truck hit him, an accident as they were forcefully removing us. The trucks that they have used to remove us, were in a very bad condition. It were trucks from the farms that had a lot of cow dung and all sorts of things from the farms.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maswanganyi, you say that at Tshikota there were Basothos, Tsongas and Vendas, were you living together amicably or were you separated into different ethnic groups from that area?

MR MASWANGANYI: We lived together with the Basotho, the Tsonga and the Venda people. We were living together and people inter-married and now other Venda people are with us at Waterval and other were Tsongas which meant that we were living in unity, we were inter-marrying into all this different ethnic communities. Only the Boers were separated from us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming forward and we are sorry about the heavy losses. I am sure many people from that area would also have similar stories to say about compensation and that kind of thing. Mr Manthata here, who is in charge of the Reparation and Rehabilitation, will tell us at the end of the session about this new policy that this Committee is going to submit to our Government. But we as the TRC do not have any powers to compensate on our own. But Mr Manthata will explain later on.

Thank you very much for coming to share you story with us.

MR MASWANGANYI: Thank you.

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