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CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask before you go through your statement which I know you've prepared for us, if you would please take the oath with Commissioner Randera.

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: (sworn states)

Chairperson I'm sorry that I have to speak Afrikaans, you have very good interpreters, I listened with pleasure to them. Before I start with my testimony, I want to refer to a report in the Beeld. I'm just going to give you a summary. It says that Brigadier Cronje testified yesterday that we we're the same people, I'm here to release them, and that two of his security policemen were locked up by me.

It's the Beeld, I know you can do nothing about it but I would like it to be put right. We never, no prisoner was released by Jack Cronje but that was after I left, that was 1988, that was just before the election, Prince James is here, he knows that, and people were locked up just before the election and no security policeman was ever locked up.

And then I want to refer to Fourie's murder, Hannes Fourie's murder. The witness now, Captain Kekana and the facts that he gave how the car was found, I was there that evening. That is not true. I just want to inform that to the Commission, his summary sits here, he was then a warrant officer, he was second in charge with hannes Fourie, and the facts given here are definitely not true. So he is a bit confused. That's something I just want to put right. Now I'm going to continue Chairperson.

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Chairperson, I would very much have liked to sit in front of the audience. I should so much have liked to have a photo of myself where I am listening to what the people are saying of me and I would so much have liked to have experienced the perception of myself, the audience see me as an aggressor, a cruel person and a person who is a racist. That is not who I am. I was an official who wanted to bring peace and wanted to maintain peace and order. I wanted to protect your lives and your property against arson, murder, against necklacing, I didn't want to do anything more or less, and could I please ask you today to break down this incorrect perception that you have of me and to see the real and true Hertzog Lerm. Let's listen to the statistics concerning unrest in '86 '87, in Kwandebele, it was mostly politically motivated crime and this type of crime is very difficult to solve. You know that. If we take the situation of Johan Heinz, that has not been solved. Political murders are not easy to solve in South Africa, I don't know why, but you're aware of that.

Then I want to refer you to the crime in 1986-87. 187 murders, we have that. 500 thefts, rapes 151, break-ins of houses 158. And then car vehicle theft, 158, then stock theft, also quite a large number and then serious assault, that is perhaps where police people assaulted people or where the two different people assaulted each other, more that 800. And then we had a bomb scare or a bomb explosion where Piet Ntuli was murdered and then, well where people escaped, there were 44 who escaped and an attempted murder related to unrest, that was 100, 13 incidents of theft of weapons, ordinary theft 157, and then fraud, 58 and now this is the crux, 303 incidents of arson. That's where shops MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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have been burned. And the worst one now, this is where for example, machinery has been burned, vehicles set alight,

400, more than 400. I come from Johannesburg, I worked

there for many years, but this was terrible, and I would like to see what the statistics are now. And then also, driving under the influence of alcohol, 30.

And I will come back to the crime now. The detectives, we had five trained detectives, not junior detectives, a few black members and then also white, only five. They had 4 760 cases per year, now that is impossible to cope with. I went to pretoria, we didn't get any assistance, it was a great task and humanly impossible. And I also want to honour those detectives for investigating that number of cases.

On 31 October '88 I left the police because I was forced to do that. Now you hear, all the people here were in fact chased away. The same applies to me. I was never a racist, I was never aggressive against anyone and my service period was in a period when black people didn't have any rights. They had the pass law. I once compiled a report where I said that it is impossible, I referred to the Bill of Rights that was from England in those days and I referred to the fact that the people in South Africa don't have any rights, it's wrong, we have to catch more than 1000 people without passes and on criminal. And through tactical manoeuvres prevented, that people did not get political power. And during the last few decades the government was dependent on the police or security forces and also the state of security regulations. Now the GBS, there weren't any police procedures, it was military state of affairs, it's a Chinese system, it came from Taiwan, and covert operations, it was tried to legalise them, and black tribes MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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were divided, polarised, disinformation was the order of the day. And communities who were in favour of the government were then advantaged, but if you weren't in favour of the government, that's now the South African Government, then you were suppressed totally.

Now state departments were taken along with this. That's finance, I think it's only Justice that didn't have to go along, but all the other state departments had to work with this system. And then this regional head of the police had to execute certain security regulations. Now Chris van Niekerk, I took over his emergency regulations, that was implemented in June, so I just inherited that. That was a uniform system from Messina to Cape Town.

The Homeland system of Kwandebele, you know that, I'm not going to refer to that anymore, and they had to become independent, come what may. I don't want to talk politics, I have a degree in politics, they just wanted Kwandebele to become independent and the role players here, were Professor Simon Gouws, you've already heard his name, a friend an a previous colleague of Gerrit Viljoen. He was the student dean under Gerrit Viljoen and Gerrit Viljoen was the Rector of RAU. Those two were very close. Gouws was born in Ystervarkfontein Kwandebele. He was involved here. He was at primary school here, he showed me the primary school. He has a lot of interest here, he wanted to become a minister here. Not perhaps education but he really had interest here, and I'm going to implicate him here.

He established the Kwandebele police force. You will think it's a joke, Chairperson, but I'm going to tell you now and Prince James is aware of that, he subpoenaed the

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previous government and then he said, and this is a subpoena, Prince James paid out the claim and I will tell you what he said in this subpoena, he said that the

establishment of her own police force in Kwandebele, it's no one else, not van Niekerk, it's Gouws who says he did that and he said that the division from police and the state department, he established that, and then also from a security management system, he was involved with that.

This is a legal document served in front of the Court, and I have my witnesses here. Gouws is the person I want to refer to here, and then also Ben Stolz, he was the secretary of Works and he wanted to see this country independent, he was a Bantu Commissioner, he was an old magistrate. Those are the role players.

Now the role of Gerrit Viljoen. Gerrit Viljoen was backed by two senior ministers, that was Adrian Vlok and Magnus Malan, and they were assisted by the deputy minister who was chairperson of the state security secretariat and they didn't report directly to the minister, but directly to Minister Botha, that was Mr Roelf Meyer to Vlok, that was after Vlok became minister and Roelf was there when he was away, when I was still there and then Leon Wessels was there. Those two gentlemen, you can ask them the same two questions, they have knowledge about this. They were involved with me in the state of emergency.

For the incorporation of Moutse, and I want to criticise someone here, this is my opinion, I did some research with the incorporation of Moutse, there was a serious crises in the coherence of Kwandebele. So they were then divided, they were peaceful, they were a unity, the Kwandebele people are lovely people, they are very cross MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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with me but I love them. They do lovely painting, bead work, but just listen what happened to them.

And this created the right climate to get the Mahlangu

Tribe conflict. Now two people are here today, and I had a lovely lunch with them this afternoon, it's Prince James and his Majose, those are two sons from one tribe, they studied together in Zululand, now what did they do?

And their opposition then tried to get political power and this conflict led to a full-scale civil war. Now the Moutse situation where they were incorporated illegally, now this led to it where the two brothers were now fighting against each other. Hundreds of people were necklaced and murdered and the economy was destroyed. I covered this area with helicopters and it looked terrible.

Now these two conflicting parties were already established and they don't have to be ashamed about this, it's the Mokodos and then we have the comrades on the other side. Now the comrades were the younger people, the Mokodos

were the older people. The South African Government, and this is the crux of the matter Chairperson, and I'm criticising the South African Government, the South African Government didn't want to intervene, and that's the truth. They didn't want to intervene and the security forces had to solve this problem. Now we had to do it militarily.

They could have negotiated this, they could have got the two people and said, well let's solve this, let's get peace, let's get an administrator here, but they said, no, the police must go in and assault and go wild. Mr Piet Ntuli was murdered and I was sent there in haste and this is about the break of the trust between South Africa and Kwandebele. Now the question is, who killed Piet Ntuli, and MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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the government knew and Johan Coetzee told me who had murdered him.

And then there was a big problem between Louis Le

Grange and a cabinet minister and Hertzog Lerm had to be thrown in to go and solve the problems.

Chairperson, I was appointed here as a Commissioner in an illegal way, I was not seconded and a certificate had to be given to serve in a black situation. He was not prepared to do that and I was on a plane and I had to come here, so I was never seconded.

And a period of service started with a state of emergency, I didn't work here as a policemen, I started here under the state of emergency on 4/8 and it ended in '88, and there was no room given for me to really administer the police or to manage it, I could never do it, because I didn't have detectives, I have more than 4 000 cases a year without detectives, the policemen have to run to and fro to look after schools, they took all the cars from all over, and put them at the schools because the state officials didn't have any vehicles. So the police had to use the civil service vehicles and there was no room for me, I mentioned that. I had a crises management here in a bloody war. And it was a war. And it was a civil war.

This is not what I'm telling to you, I'm referring to Colleen McCleod, I'm referring to the book, The Struggle against Independence, I also refer to Hans Pienaar's book. There was a civil war, let's say it to each other, the people are sitting here, they experienced it, it was terrible, it was terrible for me as well.

I really couldn't handle it, how brothers and family members kill each other. Law and order had to be maintained MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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and the peace of Kwandebele citizens have to be maintained in a state, it's not a real state, it went very bad here.

And I believe that there were covert operations and there were human rights violations, I believe that, if we

say that there weren't any then we are lying because that was the case. President de Klerk in his submissions admitted to covert operations, that it was allowed in South Africa in the Homelands and the actions of Prince James and Majose, they also acted covertly. Prince James lets his house be burned down, the other one lets the other house be burned down, they were doing it to each other.

Chair person, according to the household advertiser and I want to object to this, I can say to you for sure, and you know what stands in this newspaper, I know that people cry, but I can also cry, you have to listen to what this newspaper says, it's the Highveld Advertiser of 1995, it was distributed here in Mpumalanga, I don't know whether it still exists, it says,

I did not know I was a top pop, I thought I was a dumb policeman,

these are the kitskonstabels, (end of side A)

It's a lie, I walk down here and I and I don't want to mention the person's name but this journalist told me, "Brigadier, is that your helicopter?". I almost thought that she thought that I became a millionaire with my golden MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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handshake that I can now in fact afford a helicopter to fly here, I'm a poor policeman.

So I'm mentioning this, this is a perception that was created, that I got a lot of money in Kwandebele, here the

people are sitting, I didn't get a cent from them.

Chairperson, I just quoted that, I'm continuing. That's the greatest lie and I repeat it, and I would like if a person says to me and I would want to look him in the eye and we have to take each other's hand, I was never involved in any torture. I know what torture is. I grew up in the police force, I know what torture is. In the old days there was a lot of torturing. In the old days a detective didn't say and or light a cigarette, what they did was send a letter from Pretoria that the detective had to question people. When I came to the police in '55 they actually assaulted people to get them to talk, I'm not ashamed to say that, I'll say it again, but that was stopped.

Then commissioner said, no that's not the way that you question people, it's a foolish person who beats a person to get information. A person who understands doesn't hit another person to get information. Sir I want to deny it very strongly, I never murdered a person, I never planned assassination. I've never abducted any person and I was an old person when I came here, I just look as young as I do but I couldn't have assaulted or abducted people, it must have been the young people, they must have done that without mentioning it. But you must remember that this is not true, I want to confirm this. I was never guilty of any crime, although I am not personally, I do not accept personal responsibility. For example if the Captain de Jager now says that he assaulted a person, I'm not going to accept, MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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well I will accept responsibility for that, I Commissioner, if I sleep in my bed if a constable throws a stone at someone or shocks him, I'm responsible, I have to call him in or I have to take steps against him, that is my

responsibility and I will accept responsibility for that.

They were only a small police force, remember they were but a handful, we had 800 year to year but they were not our policemen, they were sent here to enforce with their own commanding officers, we had a mere handful. I want to be honest with you, we couldn't have policed 10 000 people, that's how small we were and you know, according to statistics, I think there were approximately 800 000 people including Moutse. They worked under difficult and dangerous circumstances, and they had to control instigators, they had to combat terrorism and so forth and I would like to say to you, and I think that a lot of my policemen sitting here today, they are high ranking officers in Mpumalanga and I'm very proud of them. I would like to say I'm proud of them and I want to say to them, I accept no responsibility for the hundred policemen that came in here under the command of their own commanding officers and I do not accept responsibility for the acts of the Security Branch, that has got nothing to do with me, you mustn't ask me about them, they worked under their own commanding officer, under General Muller under Pretoria, and at Police Headquarters and the Security at Headquarters, was under General van der Merwe. And breaches of trust between gouws and the other parties, that led to my transfer to Durban, You know I wasn't transferred because these people said, "No he's a bad person, I was transferred because Professor Gouws said that I should be transferred, because he and the Chief Minister MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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did not get along.

When I allowed myself to be misused by Professor Gouws and Viljoen, it wasn't enough, and I'd like to say that I was misused, I was sent on a plane from here to go and talk to Dr Viljoen and General Coetzee in Cape Town, hundreds of times about the security situation and I would have to go with and say what the situation was like because it was about independence and President Botha made two demands, firstly that there had to be invisible support in this section and that there had to be stability here. And for that I always went down to Cape Town, although I never spoke to President Botha face to face.

Approximately 17 days thereafter I went to Durban and you were talking to somebody, there's my wife, they sent me down to Durban and I had to work with Indians in Durban and 17 days later I was told that I'm going to Soweto, and 17 days later I'm told that I can't speak to any leaders, I was told, "You are hereby told that with immediate effect you are not to liaise with any official in Kwandebele or any independent or self-governing state." That means all the states, I couldn't speak to them, I couldn't liaise with them, I could not have discussions with them or contact them in any way. And I could not disobey that in any way, and that I had to sign in front of Minister Vlok.

Why would they say I could not liaise with any of the nine independent states. They knew what they were doing because they knew I could speak to the people and I would do that because I wasn't afraid to do so, and I am not a racist and I could do that. They said that I was a threat and I want to say that I was not transferred because of what I did but because I could speak to the people.

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Mr Chairperson, I was transferred to Soweto by Vlok and this prohibition was that, because I refused to accept it, because I said to him, "How can I go to Soweto, prince James and his people are in Soweto. Your elections were there", and at the time all the chiefs of these homelands were there, how could I go and stay there if I was such an

oppressor, and I decided to resign, to take early retirement, and then I was, understand I was intimidated. I was intimidated by the Security Police. They phoned my house when I received a medal from President Botha, the sought after, Southern Cross medal, they phoned me at 8 o'clock, they phoned me to say that it's been postponed to 11 o'clock, whereas the ceremony took place at 10 o'clock, and I phoned there and I asked them and they said, "No we never phoned, you have to be here at 10 o'clock". We drove to Port Edward, the holiday resort there, we got there late at night, my wife and I and my daughter, and I was told, "But you cancelled your reservation, your son phoned yesterday to say that you were ill, you weren't coming any longer". And I phoned and I investigated and I found out that it was Security Police, and I will tell you why the Security Police intimidated me, I'm not afraid to tell you that. We'll get to that now.

My family and I suffered harassment, the reason for that was because they were afraid that I would report their criminal deeds. You can see, Vlok is in Middelburg, he was involved in the corpses that were blown up in the murder people in Nelspruit, you can see where Cronje and Hechter are. I also knew about that. And if you know too much, you yourself know about that, you know what happens to people that know too much.

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After investigations by General Basie Smit, that Cronje prosecuted, Cronje was also here and Basie Smit came and followed up on that, and then there were things said about Ntuli's death and then they attacked Basie Smit as the newcomer and they told him, "You've just got here now, why don't you people solve the mystery about Ntuli's death?",

yes they knew who committed the act, and that is where President Botha appointed the Parsons Commission and I'm going to read it to you.

After that appointment of the Parsons Commission and before it functioned, there was a change of government in Kwandebele. While the Crossland Commission was appointed, they were requested by the previous minister, Majoze, he went to attorneys in Pretoria and they told him "You are not competent to appoint a Commission, I will do that." In any event it was done and when the Commission started sitting, Prince James was in government. The Commission sat for four years and in four years, I would like to say to you it was politically involved. They were also politically involved.

They really affected me and it made a finding on untested and published false allegations. It was a total political ploy to discredit me and I would like to say to you that if that they heard that I was to appear here, the previous commissioner who was involved in all the corruption, would take all their shots and they would say that here's the corrupt commissioner, here.

And that is why I'm here today, I want this set right. This is what Parsons did. It was a political ploy against me in order to discredit me and with the aim of discrediting me in the eyes of black people. They succeeded by using the press, because the press loves to exaggerate, and when MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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President F W de Klerk came to the fore with his new initiative, I asked for restitution and I wrote him a letter. Here it is and he acknowledged receipt thereof and at that stage he was busy with negotiations and my request was on the table of the Commissioner of Police with no results.

Chairperson I would like to ask that my rights also be set straight. I lost thousands of rands, also my reputation. After my retirement in 1988, the Chief Minister offered me a senior post which I declined. He wanted me to come back to Kwandebele where I retired and he can also tell you that I declined. This is what this whole matter is based on. The police were unwittingly involved in politics as a result of State interaction. We operated within the parameters of our duties because of the political leadership of the day and all the consequences which were attached thereto. This is the right time for the previous regime which got us involved in that arena to come to the fore and take moral responsibility for all immoral acts and strategies.

I would also like to commend the thousands, you must listen, the thousands of maids, the wives who worked in our houses us whites and who cared for our children as mothers in our absence. You fought the struggle with us and often paid a very high price. If it was not for the mothers that worked in the white homes about 1960, then already we would have had a revolution, but the maids were in our homes, these are the mothers, they loved us, they raised our children and I would like to pay tribute to them here today.

Chairperson, I would like to say something about

myself, I am a community leader in Warmbad, I am a religious person and I am an elder in the Dutch Reformed Church and I MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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was also a higher elder. I was also a chairperson at the magistrate's court in Warmbad, I am the lead chairperson of the Community Development Forum. I am a member of the Community Policing Forum and I was the chairperson in the Warmbad area for a few years.

Up until 1995, I was the mayor of the larger Warmbad

area and would like to read a letter written by Doctor Bata from Transkei which he wrote to me in about 1973 riots at Fort Hare. I brought this with me just so that you could hear what Bata said, he was a doctor in Kings Street in Butterworth. Listen to what he has to say.

You can investigate it, it is here.

Chairperson, I would like to conclude, now you have to give me an opportunity please, I would like to conclude with the following extract from Psalm 30.

I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier, towards the end of your submission, you spoke about your political activities. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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Brigadier could you tell us which political party you this is and you said you were a councillor and a mayor, for which political party were you a member of?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, I do not have anything with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear me now Brigadier?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Yes I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that your activities, recent activities when in politics as a councillor in Warmbaths and as a mayor, are you affiliated to any political party and in which political party do you serve in those capacities?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, I was always a National Party member and I was a card-carrying member, I paid my subscription fees and when they appointed this Parson Commission, I joined the Conservative Party and in the near future I will be fighting in the local election as an independent.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're now independent but you were at a stage a member of the Conservative Party. When you were a local councillor, you were there in your capacity as a member of the Conservative Party?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: That's correct I started as council member as a member of the Conservative Party. Chairperson, the policy of the Conservative Party, I do not know what it is any more. But back then in my days, it was for independent development.

CHAIRPERSON: In your testimony you said that one of the people who was very strongly supportive of independence, is Professor Simon Gouws, who was at the Rand Afrikaanse

University, who was an advisor to many of the cabinet ministers, he was advisor to S S Skosana when he was chief MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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minister and I think he continued in that capacity, when Majoze George Mahlanga took over as chief minister. Now is it not the case Brigadier that there was a time when you also had a very close relationship with Simon Gouws, particularly on this issue of independence?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Gouws is the man who together with

General Coetzee and together with General Schutte, who investigated the murder, he investigated the matter and he also covered it up, I flew with him and Simon Gouws immediately stopped the document in my hand which he wrote to Chris Heunis which mentioned and so on and so forth. In that letter was also mentioned that this person had to be transferred, so it was done.

CHAIRPERSON: You said about the responsibility which political which political parties have to accept for their role and I don't think that anyone disagrees with that position, in fact you may know that the political parties have made submissions to the Truth Commission and that they're actually going to be recalled because there are certain questions which the Truth Commission wants to put to them, so the question of the responsibility of the political parties is going to be dealt with by the Truth Commission. But do you think that the individuals, and you said you were a card carrying member of the National Party, don't the individuals also who are members of that party, don't they also have a responsibility or is it a case of saying, it's

not me, it was the leaders, what is the responsibility of those that also carried out the policies of the leaders of the day , what is their responsibility?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, if you are a commissioner of police, or an administrator of a province, or a director MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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general of finance, then all the interaction between you and the minister, that is, he walks out of the cabinet, comes into office, and then it would circulate from the constable on the ground, back through the commissioner to the minister, the policy is formed in parliament and the enforcement thereof would be the head of the department.

CHAIRPERSON: We had testimony earlier by the former commissioner of the police, General Chris van Niekerk, where he indicated quite clearly that he saw the issue of independence, this political issue, as the major cause of the conflict in the area, he made certain recommendations to the then Cabinet of the South African Government and it was because of those recommendations, because he was seen as interfering in policy that he wasn't carrying out policy, that he was replaced, that he was transferred. So is it not the case that people actually do make choices, that yes, there is a policy, but in the implementation of that policy, don't individuals have responsibility, don't they make their own choices?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson I already mentioned that the police were already involuntarily involved in politics. I said that in my submission and I would like to say Chris van Niekerk heard what I said, I am not going to say it was not true, he spoke on his own behalf, I am not going to say anything on his behalf, I do not know anything about what went on between him and the government, but when I got there Chris worked under me and I would like to say to you, Nick de Villiers told me, phoned me and said to me, "Man the police at Kwandebele, are arresting people and taking them to Siyabuswa Hall and that they are being assaulted there and I phoned Chris and said, "Chris stop that immediately!". MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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Chairman to be honest, I stopped him and General Malan, I will call him now, I told Chris van Niekerk to withdraw those people because we cannot these people and kill these people, they can come and tell you, I stopped that, but I cannot speak on Chris van Niekerk's behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not the question I was asking. What

I was saying was that the policy of the day, of the government of the day, was the question of independence, that was the policy.

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: I can hear you now, it seems my head shrinks from time to time. Chairperson I listened to what you said.

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier, the policy of the day was independence, that was the policy and Chris van Niekerk was seen as not supporting that policy. In fact to put it even stronger, he was accused of undermining that policy. The person who accused him of doing that was Simon Gouws, that he was undermining this policy of independence. It was necessary to replace him therefore with the Commissioner of Police who would carry out the policy of the day, who wouldn't question the policy of the day. And that, according to our information , our research, that is why you were chosen to come to this area, because you were prepared to ensure that the policy of the day, the issue of the independence for Kwandebele, that that policy was going to be implemented, come what may. Is that not true?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairman, I received an instruction, I will go back to Chris van Niekerk. Chris van Niekerk applied to assist these people with independence, he applied and he was seconded, I was not seconded. I was brought here amid a crises, and I was aware of the fact that there was MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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this question of independence and I was told, ensure that there is peace and stability so that this area could be made independent. I merely enforced instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: The policy was, independence, and therefore there are political implications and I'm asking you again, do you not take responsibility that the law and order which

was required of you was a political law and order, it was not an ordinary law and order, as you said you were not an ordinary policeman, it was a political policy which you were to ensure succeeds, namely independence and therefore you were to carry out actions against people who were seen as political opponents. Is that not what your role was? And in the process of carrying out those orders, is it not the case that those who were seen as political opponents had their human rights violated, that they were either tortured, that they were either illegally detained, that they were either abducted, is that not the case. If there is a political conflict, and there are two sides to the political conflict, and one takes one position in that political conflict, how else are you going to secure the triumph of one political position over another if not by the use of force?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, I used the wisdom of Solomon at the time, the government was here, there were ministers, they were supported by President Botha and I merely came to maintain peace and order and I would like to say to you, as I said previously, I came here under a state

of emergency, I did not come here as an ordinary commissioner, I came here as an emergency relief solution. There was a state of emergency and I had to enforce it.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, did you use force in order to suppress what you saw as an uprising or as opposition to MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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the policy of the day? Did you use force and sometimes undue force in order to secure those political objectives?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, that is a lie. That's not true. I am a policeman and I have police culture. I know the functions of the police, and I merely exercise those functions, I would never have allowed necklacing and

vultures to prey on people like that.

CHAIRPERSON: That was where the other side was involved with, they were the comrades or UDF or ANC, their complaints of actions against them by either kitskonstabels or Mbokoto or the police, did you pursue those actions against comrades or UDF as vigorously as you pursued the other part of the conflict, those of people who were necklaced and had their businesses burned? Were you even handed in the way that you pursued those who were involved in the conflict?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: I went so far as go to the Attorney General Mr Don Brunette, and the Cabinet said to me, "Listen, I am mentioning his name again, Daantjies van Wyk left here with all the dockets, they left here with all the dockets, there are witnesses who can corroborate that. When Piet Ntuli died, they left with all the dockets, when I asked I was told they were still being written out, and the Cabinet came and said to me and said, something's wrong here, it seems as if only these people are being detained and you don't know what's happening to the other dockets. I said, "Listen Chief Minister, I will personally attend to

it", and I went to van Wyk and we spoke to Brunette and I said, "Listen Sir, Mr Brunette, I don't want you to do anything but to enforce the law in a uniform fashion, there should be a balance because there are complaints, the Cabinet alleges that only their matters investigated and not MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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the opposition, and I merely did my duty, nothing more, nothing less than enforcing law and order and ensuring that there is a balance. I negotiated with these people and the main thing was that they did not want independence, they did not want to live peacefully with each other, they just wanted to fight, they did not maintain peace and order, we

would not have been sitting here today.

CHAIRPERSON: The members of the panel may want to ask you some questions, to start with, Mr Tom Manthata, there are some questions he would like to put to you.

MR MANTHATA: Brigadier I don't think I would even make a lot of questions, all what I want to observe is, the Commission is by and large on reconciliation and it appears here we are dealing with a very difficult situation of mind sets and once we deal with mind sets I don't think we can even proceed to have reconciliation. So I mean when Brigadier talks about independence should be there, come what may, you know it is serious mind set. When the Brigadier talks about, this was a civil war, when this region was never at any stage independent, because when we talk about civil war, we talk about a sovereign state where people within the sovereign state are at arms against one another. And you know these are the issues that scare me, to be very frank, and because we feel that everybody here still has a role to play, that is in terms of reconciliation and it's only when people are going to be able to place themselves at a level where they can listen to and opinion the other side that we can begin to sit down together, because what we are dealing with here is the situation where lives were lost and here we are talking primarily about lives which were lost for political motives. We are not MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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talking about theft, about rape, if it was rape or...( end of tape 5)

GEN HERTZOG LERM: ..been buried, we have to cover it and we now have to start loving each other again and cooperating, that's what we have to do.

MS MHKIZE: Mr Lerm, you've just said that you didn't condone any violence, but ever since you I've been here during the hearings, time and again, witness would tell you that atrocities were performed against them by Mbokoto or whoever in the presence of your police who were onlookers and who never intervened. What did you do about that or were they following instructions that they should do so?

GEN HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson I'm aware of that. I am aware of civil cases after I left, that they actually paid out, that people told me about that. If you mention cases to me, because I've heard of cases that I'm not aware of, but I'm well aware of people who were tortured, and I've already said this, that I read a piece from a newspaper, a Mr Isaac Setseku who was tortured by means of electrical shocks, during my days. I can tell you they might have used a sjambok, they might have used a kierrie, and I'm against this whole question of electrical shocks. A policeman would not have dared doing it. Mr Goldstone who is now part of the Constitutional Court, he visited the cells, he went to Witbank, we detained people in Naboomspruit and then he wrote me letters where he said that they didn't have combs,

they had complaints about bibles. I know of people who were assaulted and I know these claims were paid out, and I know that they were seriously assaulted, I don't want to lie now but I think some of the present peoples' families here, it's a man from Moutse, Frans Mutane, that was a very serious MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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violation of human rights. There was an assault case, it was in the Supreme Court and it was paid out to him, that's as far as I can remember. I already told you that there were covert operations, there was torture it's this or that policeman, that's what I can't tell you. We had a Colonel King, every case he investigated, I told him to do that, and the Security Police also tortured some of my people, it's Alfred Ngoma, we registered cases, it was investigated. It's a very simple thing, if you are assaulted you make a case, why didn't people make cases? That was actually done.

MS MHKIZE: The case I was referring to raise, when people were raided in their communities, house to house raids, and the police would come in their hippos, assisting the so called Mbokotos, or standing aside to let them do their job. I'm referring to that as well. Your own police who would go in your hippos, government property and load these people or protect them.

GEN HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, that's most probably the best question, and this perspective has never come to the fore. At the end of my time we had police uniforms. We had three bases, that is now the South African policemen, every three months they are changed, and then we also had a base in van Reenen, there's one in Tweefontein and there's one in Vaalbank, and they travelled with hippos, we didn't have hippos. I'm glad she asked the question, Kwandebele police never had a hippo. That was General Wandrag's people and

the soldiers had the Buffels, that was General Moller's people. We had a few police vehicles and when there was trouble then I had green vehicles, just so that people could see that it's not a yellow vehicle, so we then painted them green, just to show the public, but the perception was MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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already there. We were 800 policemen, we were 40 or 50 when I came here, but there were more or less 800 who were rotating, they were the people with the Caspers and they were the people hitting, knocking and we had cases from them, they came from Mossel Bay, Cape Town, they came from all over, they had no loyalty towards this place, that was not my problem, it was forced on us.

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier Lerm, thank you very much for that submission and for the information that you have provided Sir. Thank's for coming to the hearing. Thank you.

GEN HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson can I just say something and I say it on behalf of all the people here. You know the Truth Commission, I don't know who created this idea, I know in Chile where there was also oppression, but this is the most wonderful thing that could have happened to South Africa. And I already told Dr Ally, I already see a change. I was only once at the Truth Commission and that is today. I never attended the Parsons Commission, only when I had to go but I came here today and I had an experience here, the way in which everyone acts, each one of you, you are wonderful commissioners, each one of you. How you place perspective, how you listen, you're not cross with anyone and if we leave here and we go to dining room, it was an experience to eat with the people because I'm used to being among my people, but you're the Truth Commission, I thought Bishop Tutu was here today and that's why I brought this

psalm, but you actually give light in the dark. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps if we could at a later stage, you mentioned that there were inaccuracies in what Captain Kokane had to say about the Fourie case, maybe we can get MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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that from you at a later stage, not now because that's one of the cases which we are investigating and we which we would like to clarify. But thank you very much.

And I want to thank the audience, I want to thank especially the witnesses, those who have come to testify over the four days, we have come to the end of this event hearing. Just to say that the reason that the Truth Commission has these kinds of hearings is part of this process of establishing as complete a picture as possible of the conflict of the past. An event hearing does provide us with an opportunity to look at the conflict in all its different aspects and from all the different sides, the different protagonists, antagonists, the object always being, to gain a better understanding, to get the different perspective, to try and establish as much of the truth as possible, and this to be the basis on which some kind of ..... can take place. I'm sure that people have very mixed feelings about this event hearing, some may feel disappointed that not all the answers to the questions which they have, were given. To that I can only say that we will try and investigate and follow up on these matters, and when and if we do get answers, we will certainly inform those who are directly concerned.

Some may feel that people were not completely honest and truthful in their responses, but as a Truth Commission we can only hope and expect that people will see that the

objective is truth, it's not about retribution, it's not about taking revenge, and that hopefully people will want therefore to be honest and want the truth to come out.

And there are some people who may have gained a different understanding of what happened here in Moutse, MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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Kwandebele over this very difficult and this very troubled period, 1986 to 1988. We hope that maybe new light has been shed that different perspectives have been heard, that people also who for so long have had fixed ideas about each other, perceptions about each other that maybe through this event hearing, some of that could have been changed, people could have had an opportunity to listen to the other side of the conflict, that hopefully people would have been brought closer together. One of the things that we hope, which we were very concerned about and which we did not want to happen and we don't believe that it has happened, is that an event hearing like this will revive old antagonisms and revive the old conflicts of the past and the old antagonisms. It was our concern that that should not happen and that is why before we had this event hearing, we actually met with people from Moutse, with people from Kwandebele and agreed on this venue and agreed on the format and agreed on the process.

And I think that people have demonstrated throughout these four days that they are prepared and willing to understand, and they're not out for vengeance, not out for getting their own back. That from the side of the Commission, we want to say how grateful we are that people listened, even when they didn't agree, even when they felt that people were not being entirely honest, they actually

listened, they didn't interject. There were no catcalls from the audience. And that we appreciate, because that assists us in our work.

Next year the Truth Commission is going to have to look very carefully at public hearings. There are difficulties with finance, there are difficulties also with time. We did MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

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hope that we will be able to come back to the Kwandebele area to Siyabuswa, to give people there an opportunity to speak about things which happened in Kwandebele itself. That is still being considered but is not possible for us to make any promises. What we do promise though is that the process of statement-taking will continue. The Archbishop on Monday when the hearings began, emphasised that the work of the Commission is really based first an foremost on the statements which we get. The public hearings are really an opportunity to try and get a picture, a window as people have said into the past, it is not to privilege one witness above another witness. All statements are treated equally, all statements are treated with the same amount of importance, we try to follow up on every statement. So even if it is not possible for us, because of these financial and other constraints that I mentioned, to come back here in the new year to have a public hearing, we will certainly be coming back to come and take statements and I will encourage people to come forward and make their statements, because it's only on the basis of the statements that we can do our work, that we can make findings as to whether people are victims or not, and that we can make recommendations to the President and through him to Parliament about issues of rehabilitation and reparation.

Just before we close, there are just a couple of people who I would like to thank. I'd like to thank the staff of the Philadelphia Hospital for having provided us with this venue and for the assistance also throughout these four days, I would like to thank them for their assistance and

for facilitating a lot of the statement taking, to thank the South Af.... (end of tape)

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