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CHAIRPERSON: ... in Afrikaans. Please stand and raise your right hand.

WILLEM PETRUS DE KLERK: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Will you please sit down. You do have the earphones there and should there be a question in any other language you can just make use of your headphones. Mrs Sooka will assist you in your evidence and I therefore hand you over to her. Thank you very much.

MS SOOKA: Mr de Klerk, welcome and are you able to understand me?

MR DE KLERK: Yes, sure, mam.

MS SOOKA: I wonder if you could tell us your story please.

MR DE KLERK: My wife, Annetjie de Klerk, was one of the victims who on the 25th of January 1980 was severely wounded at the Volkskas siege. At the time of her death my wife was 38 years old. At that stage I had three sons or in fact three children, Pieter, Schalk and Marche and they were respectively 14, 12 and 8 years old. The siege of the Volkskas Bank in Silverton was administered by a bunch of freedom fighters and it had absolutely nothing to do with the Government of the day. There was no Government buildings in that area. The hostages were, in general, all woman and it can therefore be regarded as a very cowardly deed. A deed on a group of defenceless people. A deed that PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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had nothing to do with the Government and had nothing to do with the politic of the day and they were not part of the freedom fighting.

On that specific day I was a Captain and Station Commander at the Villiera Police Station. At around one o' clock I called the bank to speak to my wife and the receptionist then advised me that there was a siege and that no calls were to be taken. I was then sent to the scene and I was responsible to cordon off the territory. At that stage the people held hostage, their human rights were violated. The demands were put to the Government of the day, but I was not involved in those happenings. At around seven o' clock that evening the police task force entered the building and they then freed the hostages. During this process several people were injured, one person died and my wife was injured. I was not allowed entry into the building.

Whilst I was waiting outside I assisted in carrying out people. My wife was the last person they brought out. She was unconscious and was severely injured. I then went to the hospital and there I was advised that she was injured and shot in her left chest. I would like to bring this incident to the attention of the Commission. I would like you to investigate properly. I would like to know what the reasons for my wife's death was. I would like to know who was responsible for her death. I was never ever informed about these things and up until today I have not even received a death certificate. I would very much like to know what happened to the then inquest and how far they came. I would also like to know why after the inquest I was given no information. It must be so that those who planned

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or stood behind this incident, that they got away and I would very much like to see those people being prosecuted and I would also like them to come forward, admit and to ask for reconciliation. I am of the opinion that those people are still at large.

My wife was apolitical, she had no political views and both of us never ever made ourselves or subjected ourselves to racist comments or anything of that sort. Although I was a member of the South African Police it is certainly no indication of me being part of them. The fact that my wife had to suffer so much was very hard for me because she was always, in the past, she always was scared of being shot dead. I believe that each person has a right to live. Even murderers have a right to life. My children were denied the love of a mother and I, of course, had to raise them. Financially I suffered as my wife's salary was no longer there which led to after completing my police duties at night, I would have had to take other tasks in order to look after my children. In the meantime my three children were left alone at home without a mother and father and as a result of that, even today, even though I am a pensioner now I am still forced to do other work in order to supplement my income.

My wife was a very sensitive person and I do not think there is anybody except me who would know how she must have suffered at the time when she died. I think that we should not favour certain people. I also believe that defenceless people who did not have anything to do with the political struggle and that they, surely, had a right to life. They did not form part of the struggle and therefore their lives should not have been at stake. Those who were part of the

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struggle, those people were prepared to die for what they stood for, but ordinary civilians did not have those aims in mind.

My children and myself have accepted these things, but I am here today to request that all people should come to the front and that we can all start from the beginning so that we can all bury the past and go forward with our lives and live in peace. I thank you.

MS SOOKA: Thank you. I know it is quite a sensitive issue, but if I could just take you back. Was your wife an employee of this bank?

MR DE KLERK: Yes, she was an employee of the bank.

MS SOOKA: After her death did you receive any kind of compensation at all?

MR DE KLERK: Nothing at all.

MS SOOKA: So you were in fact forced to live on one salary?

MR DE KLERK: That is for sure, mam.

MS SOOKA: You have given us quite a comprehensive statement. It is a very painful issue and I think that one of the things that the Commission does need to do is ensure that all of these matters do get investigated. I will ask my fellow Commissioners if they want to ask you any questions.

MR DE KLERK: I thank you for that.

MS SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No questions. Tom. Mr Manthata.

MR MANTHATA: You will bear with me. At least you have already given a very brilliant and very acceptable summary of the conflicts of the past and perhaps we are just saying let us have a full picture of them all. Where we are saying PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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in a country where we can distinguish between the civilians and the soldiers, let that distinction be maintained and observed and be respected, but we come from a past where civilians were literally shot in their home places and then, perhaps, civilians who were unfortunate victims like Mrs de Klerk was. It is only when we take this broad picture that we come to the summary that you have given. That let there be no favourites. Let there be no privileged groups and, in this case we are saying, no longer. On this, in fact, would be my one and only question. How do we see the Truth and Reconciliation Commission facilitating just that kind of a picture? Can you throw any light on that, where we are talking about, you know, the kind of conflicts where civilians were caught so mercilessly, at certain stages, and yet they remained civilians, dear, innocent to their family members.

MR DE KLERK: I would like to repeat, please, to repeat that question in Afrikaans for me please.

MR MANTHATA: Yes please. I do not think I can express it better than. I continue just the question.

MR DE KLERK: Only the question, Chair, please.

MR MANTHATA: Right, thanks. My question is this is the task that is facing the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and what would you suggest that the Truth and Reconciliation just runs its processes to achieve just that picture that you have drawn already in your statement?

MR DE KLERK: There is something wrong with this thing, Sir. CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. Are you not getting the translation in Afrikaans?

MR DE KLERK: No, I did not hear the translation. I did not hear it at all.

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MR MANTHATA: Can you. Sorry. I would request Mr Chairman to put it in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me try and repeat the question in Afrikaans.

MR DE KLERK: Please.

CHAIRPERSON: The question that Mr Manthata asked is that civilians were involved although it also happened all over. Although we did not at times know who was involved. The question is that in view of this, what would you say the Commission should do or what should they recommend to the Government that would assist in bringing this whole process as part of the history. Do you have any specific views on this?

MR DE KLERK: I think that it is, perhaps, the duty of each and every South African to contribute to this and therefore I feel that each and every person who at some stage in the past was a victim, should come forward, but to say what should be done is very difficult. It is something that I cannot tell you. I understand why it happened, but I would just like to say that everybody who was part of this, everybody who was put of the planning of this, that they should come forward and say this is what I did and this is how I contributed and I am now sorry for this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk, thank you very much. I have one question. You said in your testimony as well, these people who planned this thing, the organisers of this siege, they must come forward, they must be found out, it must be found out who they are and they must take responsibility in terms of the total picture, also what their motivations were and how they would have thought and why they did it. Why are you assuming that there was, indeed, organisers involved

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here?

MR DE KLERK: It is obvious that not anybody who belonged to a semi-military organisation would act without an order. I have never heard of.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that you did not think that they acted out of their own accord?

MR DE KLERK: No, I do not think that they acted out of their accord.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk, you know that we have an enormous task and if only you would listen to the evidence that was given this morning, if only you heard that. It is going to be very difficult to say whether the Commission is really going to get to all the answers, but I think what your contribution is and what really got to me is that what led to Mr Manthata's question and that is that the struggle was a whole struggle. It was a struggle that involved everybody. It was a struggle where the fighter and the so called civilian that actually disappeared and the fact that you said I understand what happened and I think that understanding is a requirement, a requirement that forms part of reconciliation.

If the Commission can contribute, if the Commission can contribute to this bigger picture that we can have a better understanding and that we can accept the past, but also that we must know the past and from there we can go ahead. I would like to thank you and I want to thank you for the trouble for coming here today and specifically that you remained after lunch since you probably expected to give evidence before lunch. Thank you very, very much.

MR DE KLERK: I would also like to thank the Commission and I hope that at the end of the day we will have peace in our

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land. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr de Klerk.

Is Mrs Christie here. Did Mrs Christie not come.

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