TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 07.08.96 NAME: STEFANE MESHACK NTSEORENG

CASE: 1046 - SEBOKENG

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DR BORAINE: Good morning Mr Ntsoereng and also to your

daughter we are very glad that you have somebody from your

own family who is with you and I hope that you are going to

feel relaxed. It's not easy to sit where you are. You are

the first today and that's even more difficult because the

day is still young and it hasn't really started, but you

will start by telling your own story. I want you to know

that this is not a court of law. We are not here to

interrogate you. We want to help you to tell your story.

Now I'd like you to start with the 3rd of September 1984

where there was a meeting at the administration offices to

talk about electricity and then to take us through your

story and I will try not to interrupt unless there is some

question that I might want to ask. Will you start now

please.

MR NTSOERENG: There was a meeting, the meeting was with

regard to electricity. It was three weeks before the 3rd of

September. The meeting was held at Zone 13. As the

residents of Zone 13 we were actually their representatives

and Zone 13 was behind with their payments and it was the

first one to pay R8,50 when other locations were still

paying a relatively low fee. When we got to the Council

they explained to us that it was difficult for Zone 13 to

obtain electricity if they did not increase the money that

we had to pay and we were behind in arrears. The residents

accepted this explanation. At this meeting it was myself,

HRV/1046 Mrs Musala/...

Mrs Musala as well as Mrs Dhlamini when we explained to the

residents and the residents accepted the explanation. Can I

go on?

DR BORAINE: Yes please do go on.

MR NTSOERENG: When the residents accepted this that was on

the first day, it was on a Saturday, people from the

administration offices in Sebokeng came with a fire

extinguisher. When they brought this fire extinguisher it

was a very surprising story, though I had already heard that

there was going to be a rent boycott, now I wondered as to

what was the fire extinguisher going to do. It so happened

that on that day, from that day up to Monday it was the

third day, but it was on a Monday at about 9 o'clock there

was some violence within the community. After that violence

had started I realised that there could be some problems

arising because the shops were burnt. That is when I

decided to move away from my place and I went to my

brother's place. This went on and on up till the afternoon.

At that point when I was listening to the radio I realised

that some of my members had already died on that very same

day, and we realised that the situation was quite volatile

and I could not go out of the residence. Up till sunset

even the following day then on a Wednesday it was between 5

o'clock and 7 o'clock my house was burnt down. As my house

was burning I really discovered that it was now quite bad

but I slept there and friends who were with me at that day

tried to help me get out of that place and they tried to

help me as I am a widower. They took me from there and they

took me to the Administration Board at Houtkop. I related

this matter to the police and asked them to go and fetch my

sons who were left there as well as their sister. When I

HRV/1046 got/...

got there the policeman went to fetch my sons and they

brought them to Houtkop. I will try to explain this a

little bit further. As I'd already explained that we were

sent a certain matter and there was a fire extinguisher my

co-members they were not only fire extinguishers but they

also got guns.

I'll just explain it a little bit further so that it

may be clear that we were a different organisation. There

was a Mathlasedi organisation. There was also an LPP as

well as Bafutsane. I was a member of Bafutsane

organisation. This really surprised me to get that some

others were armed and we were not armed. Probably they knew

what was going to happen thereafter. We remained there. As

we were still there we had to hold certain meetings to try

and get some solutions and resolutions to the situation.

As we were still furthering this matter there was

another aspect that was troubling us within the community.

That was the issue of the liquor outlets. We, as the people

that we could be able to go on as a community and develop

ourselves. I hope it is clear that at that time the liquor

licences cost a lot of money to obtain because the bottle

stores outside were not allowed to bring liquor into our

location, and we realised that that was the only thing that

could help us out of this predicament. As we were taking

this matter further we realised that we could not see eye-

to-eye with the administration board because the

administration board and the council was already there at

that time. They told us that it was a matter for the

administration board and they wanted to privatise the liquor

boards. It is true that was the end of the matter, and

these were separated in a surprising matter because most of

HRV/1046 them/...

them, that is the greater part went to the other people.

That is another matter that troubled the community. We

stayed as the situation went on.

Now as we went to the meetings we kept on having those

meetings and we started having altercations and we were not

seeing eye-to-eye with the other organisations that I have

already explained, and they started moving out of the

organisations and crossing floors to other organisations.

Some of them were being helped by the administration board.

And it so happened that as time went on we discovered that

as we were staying at DC Group we had to move away because

we did not have houses anymore. And at the time when we

decided to move we had to get another place to stay where we

were going to build and we got the space at Zone 10. I can

still point it now.

We discovered that we did not have anything, any

possessions, because all our possessions had been burnt when

our houses were burned, and it so happened that at that

juncture I can say that most of the people who were there

got money which could be to the amount of R5 000 in order to

start our living. I, and Mr Musala was one of the people

who did not get any money. It happened that at that

particular time I saw another fire extinguisher and it is

still there at my place.

It happened that those houses were rebuilt and when

these houses were built there had to be a division and I got

a unit next to the hostel. All the other ones from the

other opposing group had to go to other houses at Zone 10.

They went to stay there and this place was surrounded by a

fence. There were certain policemen who were guarding that

place 24 hours of the day. I was given the third fire

HRV/1046 extinguisher/...

extinguisher. When I got out the fire extinguisher was

there, there was no fence, nothing. And when I enquired

about this issue I was told that the person who was issuing

the R5 000 rent money was the Commissioner. When I went to

see him at his offices he said I should wait for the State

President's Fund, there is no money that I will ever get.

It so happened that the next year if I am not mistaken, it

was in June, the State President's Fund arrived. I wasn't

living peacefully and I decided to go and rebuild my house

in the township. It happened that thereafter the houses

that belonged to the councillors, the houses that were in

the townships were now fenced. Now at the hostel unit where

I was staying there was nothing. I nearly forgot that my

friend Mr Musala who was with me in this trouble decided to

leave Vaal Triangle to go to Pretoria.

It happened then that when they were busy fencing the

houses the then town secretary Mr Scholtz he was involved in

this scandal, he was taking money for himself and there was

a court case and he was sentenced. If I remember well he

also made an appeal, I don't know whether he succeeded with

the appeal or not.

This is the trouble that I have been through. All this

started in 1984 until in 1987 because you will understand

that I was between two trouble areas. In the township I was

being chased by the people and on this other side I was also

being chased away. There were bursaries afforded children,

but my children couldn't get even a cent from those

bursaries.

I want to say to you today my community harassed me

because we negotiated with them at first before I could get

into the council and the administration and the council

HRV/1046 itself/...

itself was harassing me. Now you have to understand, a

father who has got children, what kind of life was a man

supposed to live in those years.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr Ntsoereng. You have described

very clearly what it was like in that period 1984 and

onwards. Now you mention that you were a councillor but

your weren't a member of the LPP, you weren't a member of

the ruling party?

MR NTSOERENG: I wasn't in the ruling party Sir, I was in

the Bafutsane Party.

DR BORAINE: And that was an opposition party?

MR NTSOERENG: Yes it was the opposition party.

DR BORAINE: But the community were opposed to councillors

whether they were in the ruling party or in the opposition

party, is that right? Shall I repeat?

MR NTSOERENG: Yes you can repeat that Sir.

DR BORAINE: I was saying the community were they opposed

to the ruling party and to the opposition party?

MR NTSOERENG: I didn't know of any opposition from the

community because I've already explained that we had

regions. Now in the region where I was the same region paid

my fees to register because we were paying R250,00 as

registration.

DR BORAINE: Could I ask you then why do you think your

house was burnt down?

MR NTSOERENG: I think I have explained that on the 3rd

people were killed and on the 4th, on the 5th my house was

then burned, and I realised that the community was now angry

and they decided to do the same thing even if they chose me.

DR BORAINE: So there was a very big argument about who

should represent the community and who shouldn't. Now you

HRV/1046 mentioned/...

mentioned that some of the councillors, probably only from

the ruling party were given R5 000.

MR NTSOERENG: Yes I have already explained that Sir.

DR BORAINE: But you weren't given that because you were

not the ruling party?

MR NTSOERENG: The people who did not receive the money was

myself and Mr Musala, we were the leaders of the other two

organisations.

DR BORAINE: Now you mentioned that the State President

Fund in 1985 paid out some of the councillors for the loss

of their houses, were you paid as well?

MR NTSOERENG: The State President's Fund paid everybody

because a cheque was directed to a specific person. That is

the money that I have already explained that I used it to

rebuild my house, that was then destroyed again.

DR BORAINE: How much was that?

MR NTSOERENG: It was R16 000. That is why I managed to

rebuild my house. Sir I will explain that it was my house

that I built myself, it wasn't the Municipal house.

DR BORAINE: But then you mentioned very briefly that your

house was destroyed again in about 1989 or 1990, now why was

that?

MR NTSOERENG: Sir, I won't tell you, I don't know the

reasons because I was not a councillor anymore, but as I was

not feeling well I was not here in the Vaal Triangle. There

were people staying in my house.

DR BORAINE: Now the house that you are staying in now, is

that another house that you had to build or rent?

MR NTSOERENG: I had to go to the Unit, I went back to the

Unit that I was given before.

DR BORAINE: And are you employed or unemployed at the

HRV/1046 moment?/...

moment?

MR NTSOERENG: I am unemployed Sir. I am not working at

this present moment. I am just selling oranges and fruits.

DR BORAINE: Do any of your family live with you?

MR NTSOERENG: Yes Sir, this is my daughter, one of them.

DR BORAINE: You live together?

MR NTSOERENG: Yes Sir.

DR BORAINE: Do you receive any kind of pension at all?

MR NTSOERENG: I am not yet at the right age to get a

pension. I have a request Sir.

DR BORAINE: Please go ahead.

MR NTSOERENG: My request is that the files of the

administration board have to be taken out and our council

files have to be taken out as well so as to get the clear

message that we are in this situation because of the

administration board. You will realise that the money that

the people were paying were only helping the south part of

the Free State, with the money from the Vaal area.

Wittsieshoek area was built through the monies paid by the

people of this community.

DR BORAINE: We have noted your request. Is there anything

else that you want to say to the Commission?

MR NTSOERENG: I don't have so many things to say Sir.

That was the request. Now my other request is I am in this

kind of situation what can the Commission offer me so that I

can be accepted by the community?

DR BORAINE: I think that one of the good and the positive

things about these hearings is that it gives people an

opportunity to tell their story and explain why they were

doing one thing and not another, and hopefully that as one

tells one's story so the community will begin to forgive and

HRV/1046 to/...

to forget and to allow people to come back and to live

normal lives. But that of course is up to you and the

community, and certainly it would be a real request from the

Commission that people start healing one another and

receiving one another because those times in the eighties

were times of war and we must now make peace. Thank you

very much for coming. I am going to hand back to the

Chairperson in case anyone else wants to ask you questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Boraine.

MRS SEROKE: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to ask you to briefly

explain to us why were the people boycotting rents?

MR NTSOERENG: As I have already explained people boycotted

the rent because of many reasons. You will understand that

in the year that we were placed in power it was the same

year of the Tricameral Parliament and the Black community

was not happy at all about that Tricameral Parliament, that

was the first reason.

The second reason I can say the privatisation of liquor

outlets was another issue that dissatisfied the community.

The third thing we have to remember that when Sebokeng

was formed Sebokeng was really expensive. I still remember

people were paying R8,50 rents and Sharpeville was only

paying R3,50 a month, and Sharpeville was using the bucket

system at that time. They didn't have a sewerage system.

Now it so happened that when the townships were put together

people in Sebokeng they discovered that Sharpeville was

actually developed through their expense and they were not

satisfied. And I have to say, we have to remember that even

before our council came to power there was a community

council and this council increased the rents two or three

times a year, and they said after a few months we will add

HRV/1046 a/...

a certain amount and after so many months we will add

another amount and people were not satisfied at all. I

think those are the reasons why the people were not

satisfied.

MS SEROKE: Now as a member of Bafutsane were you fighting

for such things?

MR NTSOERENG: Remember I was from Zone 13 which was the

first zone with no electricity. It suffered a lot. We must

remember the administration board also started in Zone 13,

they were staying in those houses. Now the development of

Sebokeng comes from the area called Zone 13. That was the

area paying the highest rents. All the zones are coming

from this other zone. That is why I emphasise that

investigations should be made as to what happened to the

monies, as to what happened to the money because we were

made to understand that Sharpeville was helped actually by

the monies from Sebokeng. We have to understand how the

(...indistinct) developed through our monies.

MS SEROKE: I thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera has a few questions.

DR RANDERA: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to understand that

period a little better, what were you doing before you

became a councillor?

MR NTSOERENG: I was a salesman.

DR RANDERA: And you said earlier on when you were speaking

to Dr Boraine you said "my community harassed me but we

asked for their permission before we became councillors",

can you just tell us a little more what you mean by that?

MR NTSOERENG: When I say the community harassed me, my

house was burnt and I had to leave the township, and that is

the same community that trusted me at that time.

HRV/1046 DR RANDERA/...

DR RANDERA: I know it's a long time ago, can you please

just tell us there were, I understand there were some

elections for these local councils how many people actually

voted for those councils, what percentage of the population

in your opinion?

MR NTSOERENG: I can't remember the percentages but what I

can remember is the fact that in our region we had a LPP

member and I had 1,400 votes and he only had 600 votes. I

am talking about the region here, not about the Vaal

Triangle in general.

DR RANDERA: I just want to come back to where you started

your statement, I mean maybe the dates are right, maybe the

dates are wrong, you say on the 3rd of September you had a

meeting in Zone 13 with, or three weeks, sorry my apologies,

three weeks prior to the 3rd of September you had a meeting

with the people of Zone 13 ...(intervention)

MR NTSOERENG: That's correct.

DR RANDERA: It sounded like it was quite a reasonable

meeting and then three weeks later you say on the 3rd of

September I heard over the radio that some of our

councillors have been killed.

MR NTSOERENG: Yes.

DR RANDERA: What happened in this period? On the one side

you seem to have had quite a reasonable discussion with the

people of Zone 13 and three weeks later it seemed like the

township was burning, what happened inbetween? Who was

responsible? Who were the other organisations that were

working in the area?

MR NTSOERENG: Which area are you referring to Sir?

DR RANDERA: I am talking about your area, Sebokeng.

MR NTSOERENG: I want to point out that there were many

HRV/1046 organisations/...

organisations. UDF was present and they also held their

meetings and we used to hold our meetings as well. Now the

meeting we held three weeks before we were about to report

to the community that we will not meet their demands if they

don't agree to the fact that the rent has to be increased by

R5,00. In that same meeting, it was a great meeting, a big

meeting because we had the drum majorette, there was a

beautiful day, we were explaining to the community this

issue of increment.

DR RANDERA: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to come back to this

issuing of guns to the councillors, who gave out the guns?

Was it the administration or the police who gave out the

guns and were people trained to use those guns?

MR NTSOERENG: I want to talk about the training, I don't

know whether they were trained to use the guns, but what I

can explain is that those guns were the adminstration bought

guns. That is the fact I know.

DR RANDERA: My last question Mr Ntsoereng. You say in

your statement,

"These people who destroyed my house they also

destroyed me morally. I put the blame to the

regime, that is apartheid".

Now I want you please to just tell us what you mean by that,

but also in doing so can you please tell us in your memory

how many councillors actually lost their lives during this

period?

MR NTSOERENG: Nobody in those years wanted oppression.

Myself as a councillor I didn't like oppression but the

regime put us in trouble. I have already explained that

investigations should be conducted because the Black people

were used by the Government. The community of the Vaal

HRV/1046 Triangle/...

Triangle was living on conditions of bridging finance. They

used to meet their target and they could also meet their

target at Wittsieshoek. I have already indicated that the

irrigation system in that area was supported through the

funds of our region. And the community lost temper and

patience. That is why I say the regime is responsible. I

know the deceased Mr Kuzwayo Dhlamini who was killed. Mr

Siza Mucheane. Jacob Chakane and two months thereafter Zipo

Dhlamini was killed in Everton.

DR RANDERA: So that is four people that you know who were

killed during that time who were councillors.

MR NTSOERENG: But the people who died in that violent era

were many, not only the councillors, but many people died.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntsoereng on behalf of the TRC I would

like to thank you so much that you came. Thank you that you

brought your daughter with you today and introduced her to

us. We really want to say to you that the Truth Commission

has many tasks. One of the tasks is to try and find out the

truth of what's happened in South Africa and the information

you gave us will help us piece together the true story of

everything that happened in the Vaal Triangle in those

difficult years. Thank you for helping us with that. And

we also want to say to you that we do have sympathy with

you, with the dilemma you were in. You told us about the

difficulty of being a councillor in those years, as you said

you were chased by your own people, on the other hand you

were harassed by the regime, by the administration and we

know that the councillors also suffered and that their

families suffered with them. Thank you that you told us

that and we do hope that partly because of your story today

HRV/1046 that/...

that you and your family and many other councillors and

their families will be well accepted back into the

community. And as for your request that there's

investigation needed about the monies, the way the monies

were used we will take that along and we'll present your

request to the TRC. But thank you for coming, and thank you

for bringing your daughter. You may leave and you may take

your place again in the audience.

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