CHAIRPERSON: Before I ask Dr Randera to ask you to take the oath, you have brought two persons with you, two persons, will you please tell us who are with you at the table?

MRS MATSELETSELE: This is my cousin Emmy Mpumela and then that's my mother Mrs Matseletsele.

CHAIRPERSON: Your cousin and your mother I would like to welcome Mpumela and the mother of Mrs Matseletsele, thank you for coming to us. And now Dr Randera first will ask you to take the oath.

MAMOTAKE VALENTINA MATSELETSELE: (Sworn states)

DR RANDERA: Mrs Matseletsele welcome and good morning to you. Professor Meiring, who is also the Chairperson today is going to help you in telling your story. Professor Meiring.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you. Mrs Matseletsele you are here to tell us about the disappearance of your son Michael Papiki and now is your moment and please tell us about him and your problem with his disappearance.

MRS MATSELETSELE: It was in 1991 in March, I can't remember the date very well. In 1991 in March when my son disappeared, his name is Papiki Matseletsele. He was 18 years old at that time. I realised that he belonged to the PAC organisation. The first thing that we did we heard that they had their leaders within the township. The first person that we went to to trace him because we had already

HRV/799 heard/...

2

heard that there might be a possibility that he had skipped the country. We went to a certain Mr Tenane in Zone 13 and we asked him as to whether can he shed any light about our boy. And he said no, he didn't know anything. Surprisingly enough on the day that Lehole disappeared, we had a telephone at home at that time, Mr Tenane called our home looking for Papiki. My sister picked up the telephone and Mr Tenane identified himself and he said he wanted to speak to Papiki. After that Papiki conversed with him on the telephone we don't know what were they talking. That was the last day we saw him as his mother . Papiki left me with R5,00 and a photo written the prayer, the Lord's Prayer. From there when we realised that Mr Tenane was not helping us in any way my uncle Mr Peki Mulau went to the offices of the PAC in Johannesburg. He had Papiki's photo with him. He enquired about his whereabouts and they said they don't know anything about Papiki. We lost hope and then we went to his friends, we asked anybody we came across about his whereabouts and we were told that Papiki indicated at one stage that he wanted to be a soldier. His uncle used to frequent the PAC offices and every time he would go to the offices he would be given the same message that we do not know him, until in March 1994.

It was on a Wednesday, 9 of March 1994 as I have mentioned, it was at about 2 o'clock. A person came home, a gentleman, and he had a paper in his hand and he said it was a list of names and he identified himself as Mr Tulo, and he said he was from the PAC offices in Johannesburg. But he said nobody sent him, he wasn't officially sent to our home, he said he was working and as he was fiddling with the documents he came across a paper and he saw this

HRV/799 Matseletsele/...

3

Matseletsele surname and he remembered that he knew Mulua

who is my brother, the uncle to the person who disappeared, because he knew the surname and then he knew exactly where Mulua was. And he came and he said to us I am here on my behalf, I am not representing the organisation, nobody sent me here. Because we were alert at all times Mulua said to him I don't know how to take your issue, do I have to believe you or not? We have been to your offices many times but many times were told that he is not known, and you are here today from the offices. Please write your story on the paper and sign. And it's true, he took a paper, he wrote everything down and he signed. And he said he was here to report that on the 7th Papiki was involved in a car accident in Dar es Salaam and Papiki died.

On that same day, on the 9th Mulua went to Mr Tenane and Mr Tenane refused any information. But he said I will call the offices and I will call Dar es Salaam. Nothing took place. The next day, it was on the 10th of March Mr Tenane came to our home and he said to us the telephones in Dar es Salaam are not working. They only operate during the day and he said Mulua has to accompany him to his home to wait for the telephone from Dar es Salaam and the two of them left. It was in the morning. It was just after nine. They spent the whole time at Mr Tenane's house till 11 o'clock, no message, nothing.

Mulua came back and he said I am not going to keep this a secret. He left for the PAC offices in Johannesburg and he reported the matter to them. When he arrived they told him that they are busy as the organisation because they were heading for the elections but they will try their best. Mulua came back, they gave him another date to go and

HRV/799 consult/...

4

consult with them. The person who used to go was Mulua and my mother and another relative of ours.

When they arrived in Johannesburg - let me go back a while. When Tenane arrived he didn't acknowledge the fact that the deceased was buried on the 7th. And then we decided to go to the offices to ask them to transport the corpse here so that we can bury it ourselves but our request was not listened to. On several occasions we have been to the offices and they would continually tell us the same story. The statement that they gave us was they cannot keep him for a long time because he was already decomposed, and he was so tall that he couldn't fit in the coffin, or in the drawers at the mortuary.

PROF MEIRING: May I ask for quiet please. Please silence. Please continue.

MRS MATSELETSELE: The authorities at the offices didn't take any initiative to consult us. We were actually following them. They continually gave us dates to go and consult with them. And they said to us they will need an amount of R6 000 to transport the corpse to South Africa. That is true. We tried to gather the money. Once more we went to the offices requesting just one thing our son to be brought back home. We told them that we have been looking all over for him. Today you tell us that he is dead. We have been here many times but you kept on telling us that you do not know him. We do not believe that he is dead. Now please we want to be sure.

Now Mr Tulo explained that - he even left us his telephone numbers so that he can be contacted. He said he was really scared to tell us that he had been sent by the office because the office would maybe harass him, or the

HRV/799 family/...

5

family would request the office to carry the expenses. We now had R6 000 in our hand and we went to the offices. I remember the final date was the 18th of March 1994 and they said to us it is impossible to bring the corpse back home because the child was buried on the 11th. In the previous requests we told them that we want our corpse so that we can bury it ourselves. The second point that we requested from them was can we send two of the family members so that they can go to Dar es Salaam and witness the burial. But still they said no it's impossible.

That puzzled us as a family, we didn't know what to do, until on the final date when another gentleman came and they said he was from Dar es Salaam, his name was William Nkonyane. They said they will ask him to come over to explain to us exactly what happened. According to the Sotho tradition I do not believe that my son is dead because I never saw his body, and I don't believe it because every day they brought different statements. They never told us one story right through. Every time they would tell us different stories.

I have a request to make to the Commission, can I please be helped with the remains of my child so that they can be buried in South Africa? I still do not believe, even if I am making this request, I do not believe that we will be bringing back my child. He didn't leave alone. He left with his friend, I know him as Juwel and I had hoped that when they come back you know one of them would come to me and tell me what actually took place, but up to this day nothing. I only got an album from Juwel. I was expecting maybe to get his clothes so that I can believe or just his one photo taken where he was in Dar es Salaam so that I

HRV/799 could/...

6

could believe that it's true my son had been to Dar es Salaam. The album that I got was ordinary photos that he took while he was here in South Africa and Juwel didn't bring those photos to me personally he sent them via another person because they didn't want to meet the family.

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Matseletsele thank you ever so much for telling your story. Is there anything else you want to add before I ask some of the Commissioners whether they want to ask another question to you?

MRS MATSELETSELE: I think I have mentioned the most important part of the story.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much. Dr Randera has a question or two.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Matseletsele I just want to please go back to 1991 when your son disappeared, how old was he when he disappeared?

MRS MATSELETSELE: He was 18 years.

DR RANDERA: And do you have any other children?

MRS MATSELETSELE: Yes, I have three children, his sister and he was the middle and then there is another girl Sophie who is at school.

DR RANDERA: Now you mentioned this young friend of Papiki, Juwel, did he leave at the same time as Papiki?

MRS MATSELETSELE: According to the information that I got they left together. It's one of the things that I forgot to tell you. Together with my mum we used to go to Juwel's mother, that's where our hope lay because we thought she would tell us any information with regard to the children, but she told us that she hadn't received anything. And we have been asking the PAC people of the possibility, especially during those years in 1994 even if we were stupid HRV/799 enough/...

7

enough but we knew that the organisations had been unbanned and we requested her whether there was a possibility of him writing to us because his uncle had information and he helped a lot of people. He was working at the Red Cross at that time. Not the South African Red Cross, it was the Red Cross in other countries. But the answer that we got from Juwel's mother was that no I haven't heard anything from my son. I haven't received even a letter. I remember last year but Juwel's grandmother's name has skipped my mind but as we were just conversing, you know just talking generally I was deeply hurt by this issue and she said she was Juwel's grandmother and Juwel's letter used to be posted to her house and I told her that I haven't received anything from my son since the last day I saw him that was in March 1991. I miss my son a lot. I still miss him. I still am not satisfied.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Matseletsele just one last question. Did I hear you say that Juwel is back inside the country and is he living in the Vaal now, or is he still outside the country?

MRS MATSELETSELE: They came back Sir, they came back.

DR RANDERA: Is he living in the Vaal?

MRS MATSELETSELE: Yes he is staying in Zone 11.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Seroke and then Dr Boraine.

MS SEROKE: I your statement you say you put together the money to the value of R6 000, did you give it to the PAC people or what happened?

MRS MATSELETSELE: This money, they said to us for the corpse to be transported they will need the money to the value of R6 000. Now because we so dearly wanted to bury

HRV/799 our/...

8

our son if it was true that he was dead we deemed it fit to collect the R6 000. But on the final day they said no there was nothing they could do further because the body had already been buried on the 11th. And when we look at their medical report the date that is referred to as the date of the burial is the date on which the medical report was written.

MS SEROKE: In other words they gave you the medical report and the death certificate?

MRS MATSELETSELE: I don't know whether was it a death certificate or a medical report.

MS SEROKE: You said in your explanation they said Papiki was killed in a car accident, now what did the medical report say?

MRS MATSELETSELE: The medical report was giving the same story that he died in a car accident. Now we do not agree with their report because of the different statements that they put forward to us. We asked them with whom was he at the time of his death? Or just tell us the names of the people who were injured. They said no, he died with one person who stayed in Dar es Salaam.

MS SEROKE: In other words you are suspicious, you are still not satisfied?

MRS MATSELETSELE: Yes I am not satisfied at all. Why if he belonged to the PAC, why couldn't they just confirm that they knew him and he appeared in their papers? Even their statements had different hidden stories.

MS SEROKE: You are deeply hurt for the fact that Juwel and them didn't tell you the truth. You said earlier on you used to meet Juwel's mother, now after his return what kind of a relationship do you have with Juwel's mother so that

HRV/799 she/...

9

she be the one to assist you about the information in Dar es Salaam?

MRS MATSELETSELE: I have never been to his mother.

MS SEROKE: Don't you see it important to go and meet her because Juwel is not coming to you?

MRS MATSELETSELE: I had hope in Juwel because he was a friend of my son and I thought he would come to tell us the truth.

MS SEROKE: Now if he doesn't appear - did you take any initiative to go to his place to ask him about these issues?

MRS MATSELETSELE: No. I haven't taken any initiative. According to me and the family we didn't want to involve so many people. We had hoped that the Truth Commission would help us, would shed a bit of light, because it seems as if now I am competing with them because my son is not back and their's is back.

MS SEROKE: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine has a number of questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson. I will be very brief because it's not easy to have to be questioned all the time. One of the worst things about grief and sorry is not to know, is not to know for sure what really happened about a loved one, so I am going to ask you just one or two questions to try and see if we can't get more information so that we can try and help you. Now obviously the person by the name of Juwel is an important link in the whole story, can you remember what his last name, his surname was?

MRS MATSELETSELE: I only know is name Sir, but I know his home.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. You say he lives in Zone 11?

MRS MATSELETSELE: Yes.

HRV/799 DR BORAINE:/...

10

DR BORAINE: Do you know the address?

MRS MATSELETSELE: I do not know the number.

DR BORAINE: Do you know the street?

MRS MATSELETSELE: I do not know the name of the street Sir.

DR BORAINE: I will tell you why I am asking is because even though you may not wish to go there and I respect your views it may be possible for one of the investigators of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to call at his home and to ask him what he knows about your son and in particular what he knows what happened to him, because I think that's very important for you to have some certainty. And also to find out if he really did die as to where exactly he was buried to see if there is any chance of bringing his bones back. So we will ask our investigative team. But if you or any member of your family have any more information about the address or the surname would you try and give that to us before the end of the day. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Matseletsele thank you for coming. Thank you for bringing Mpumela and your mother with you. We really appreciate it that you came. And as Dr Boraine said we would like to follow up on the story. We would like to help you in every way we can to get more information. And you may know that you are not the only one who are anguishing about a beloved one that died in exile in a far off country. The Truth Commission has to look into many cases and we will be coming with proposals to Parliament on how we can bring back the remains, the bones of the beloved ones to bury them where they should be buried. Thank you for coming and may the Lord give you peace with you and your family, all the best. Thank you.

-------------------