CHAIRPERSON: Could I please ask for some order in the house. Could I also please ask and point out to people, we are here to look after and listen to the tales of the witnesses. We do not want any flashes from the audience, thanks very much. This is not a spectacle. Could you please keep your cameras to yourselves, thank you very much, and keep quiet, please. Deborah, if you could please stand to take the oath.

MS DEBORAH: (Duly sworn, states). (FULL NAMES NOT STATED FOR RECORD).

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much. Can you hear all right on the ear-phones? I will ask Yasmin Sooka please to introduce and lead your evidence. Thank you.

MS SOOKA: Deborah, thank you for agreeing to give us your story. Before you start, would you give us a little brief history about yourself, please.

MS DEBORAH: I was born in Krugersdorp, Mansiville Township, 45 years ago. I schooled in Krugersdorp. Throughout my primary education and high school, I schooled in Natal, Marianhill and Inanda Seminary. Thereafter I enrolled as radiographer at Baraghwanath. I qualified as a radiographer and worked at De Crusive(?) General Hospital. Through various harassment by management generally I left and went back to school and enrolled at the University of Zululand. In 1972, following the Tirole uprisings at the universities generally, I was expelled from university. I was a member of the South African Students Organisation, a very active member. I was also a member of the Youth of the YWCA. In 1971 I had been chosen to represent the Youth of the YWCA in Ghana, in Accra.

After returning, I think that was partly some of the brush that I had with the system, especially after I had met a number of people in exile. But all said and done ...

MS SOOKA: Deborah, just one moment. Are you comfortable the way that you are sitting?

MS DEBORAH: I think so.

MS SOOKA: Can we adjust the head-phones on your ...

MS DEBORAH: Yes, yes.

MS SOOKA: I think you could, if you feel uncomfortable with it on the top, you can let it come through the bottom.

MS DEBORAH: Oh, yes, this is more comfortable, yes, that is more comfortable.

MS SOOKA: Carry on, please.

MS DEBORAH: I got involved in - my major participation was in literacy. I was trained by a lady called Anne Hay, who was a member of the Grays, you know she was a nun. The nuns that dress in the gray. Anne was also a member of the SACP, South African Communist Party, although at that stage I did not know.

When the UCM disbanded, Anne trained ten of us, were trained in literacy, using the power of Free Method. The ten of us, among them Steve Biko, Fanie Mpyana, Strinie Moodley, Satch Skopa, Johnny Issel, Deba Gomofole, Willie Nsapo and Jeff Pakwa.

Shortly thereafter their idea was to go on an intensive literacy campaign through the country, using the Powell Free Method, which was just not say a mere means of teaching

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people how to read and write, but getting into the community. You will remember that at that stage it was during the time when there was a lull in the country and the political movements were banned.

Before we could go on an intensive literacy campaign, most of these people were banned. Actually, let me say, all of them, all of them, except myself. Others went into exile, Poka Mofulo, Debbie Gomufulo and Willie Lampopo went into exile. Steve, Bunny, Stringy and Satch were invariably banned and were sent to several areas. So the challenge was left upon me at that stage, among the team of ten, to go on with the project.

We targeted all the areas, in particular the areas where people had been resettled, like Winterveld, Rooigrond, Dimbasa, Phoenix. They were not actually going to the people who were directly deprived, but identifying what we called allies in those areas. We trained people to act as catalysts, using what we call generative words, words that were sensitive in the various communities, like housing. We did not only target the rural areas, you know, I went around training several people, the allies and then coming back to train in other areas.

In Johannesburg for instance, most of the people we identified as allies were teachers. Among them people like Tom Manthata, Aubrey Mokoene, Liba Mabasa, were the people that were trained to train others.

Student leaders were not left out. We formed SASM, the high school wing and I was mainly responsible in organising high school students to train in their areas, people to take charge of their lives, and using the sensitive areas, things that people will understand better, like reference books

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which were ibasi, you know hostel-dwellers. We worked very close ironically, we worked very closely with hostels and it was one of the areas that I enjoyed working in at the time. That was my participation in SASU and as you all know, people kept on getting banned, going into exile. Those who remained had to carry on. I was not the kind of executive member that was getting elected every year or elect somebody else, I was also there. The new executive, you know, found me there.

In 1976, in particular, my intensity of literacy work was concentrated especially on the high school students in Port Elizabeth, Durban.

I did not lead an easy life at that stage, because one had to go on battling all the time, all the way. I remember ... (END OF TAPE 6 - SIDE A).

... all the way, and I had to hike in a bakery van to go back to King William's Town.

My activities were generally centred around literacy and conscientising and conscientising in all the areas.

In 1976 it began to be hectic. The last meeting I addressed was at St Hildas (?) on March the 21st. When the students, when most of the students, Zweli Sisane, Matthew Morobe, and the teachers were involved in very serious literacy work. The system was beginning to be suspicious about Power of Free Method. But I think it had already taken them by surprise. One of the areas that had been identified was the disenchantment of Afrikaans in schools. But the Power of Free Method of Literacy's approach was not saying to people do this, it was saying to people look around you, and see where you want to make changes and you can effect changes.

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On the 15th of June, in particular, we were aware that the students had planned a march, but as intended, it was intended to be a peaceful march. By the evening of the 15th we had been invited to a meeting which was meant to be at Orlando West High School. Instead of seeing students, we saw police vehicles already parked at the mountain. I was in the company of Ned Chirajee that evening. Ned Chirajee is now an MEC in the Eastern Cape.

Not by coincidence, but because Nelson Mandela's house was like the nearest. We camped there most of the night. Winnie Mandela was the occupant of the house, you know, in order to catch a glimpse and to try and dissuade students from marching the following day, because we had realised that the system already knew But we couldn't find any of the student leaders that evening.

The following day, I was not in Soweto on that day, I was in Kagiso, when it all began. Around the 17th of June we started on an intensive move to ship out a lot of students, who already wanted to leave the country. The first batch of students actually left around the 18th. That was my major involvement around that time, to get as many students as possible out of the country. Not only from Soweto, not only from the Transvaal. The move escalated and by July we already had a lot of students, especially coming from Natal, KwaMashu Youth Organisation and the students who were already being wanted, who were wanted for the burning of the University of Zululand.

I was first detained on the 15th - I was first detained, I think it was on the 15th of July and taken to John Vorster Square. There was a big raid in SASU office. A lot of our colleagues were already at John Vorster Square. SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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When I got there, they had a list of names. My name was not in that list, but I was just taken to a general office. A lot of my colleagues were already at John Vorster Square. I saw them in manacles, walking bare feet, like Tom there. Three days later they got those that they sifted, and I was one of those who was released. Then there was already a message that they had left big fishes.

The raids to rearrest continued. Two weeks later I was arrested at my home at about three am and taken to the Fort. I was not alone at the Fort and it was fortunately Section 10 of the Suppression of Communism Act. We were not interrogated per se, but we were subjected there. Most trying times where the students who were brought to the Fort under Section 6 who were screaming at night. Tortured by the security police who actually entered the prison.

The women there were mostly community leaders, Joyce Seroke, Fatima Meer, Sele Mothlana, Winnie Mandela, Lulu Thabani and myself. We intervened, our time was spent mostly with fighting with the prison authorities not to allow the system to come and interrogate and beat up young girls at night. We kept on getting messages that some people had died. We couldn't keep track of which students died at that time.

In December, the 28th, I was released from Section 10, but one other experience, nasty experience that one had at that time, is that I was a student, a registered student with the University of South Africa at that time. Unisa sent our examination papers and on the eve when I had to start writing exams, with three others who were told, when we were told that we were not going to be allowed to write examinations, because the prison could not provide

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invigilators. That was not the worst. I was released.

In February 1977, I was detained in a road block on my way to Durban, to the head office, to the SASU head office. I was in the presence ofthe SASU president, then Mongise Stofile and Ruben Hare. We were using a car hired by Dr Motlana for us to try and disguise us because the police had been looking for us, were looking for us.

We spent the night at Vrede police station. The next day four vehicles came, driven by the security police. My other companions were told they could go and I was served with a warrant of arrest under Section 6 of the Terrorism Act.

I was escorted, I was handcuffed and driven to the Pietermaritzburg female prison. During the time I was practically a sufferer from asthma, especially in the Natal region. The security police took my spray and my tablets away. I think it was on a Wednesday that day. On the Saturday they came for me, from the female prison, and took me to a police station. I think it was called Alexandria. There they put, my ankle was tied to a chain, with a big iron ball and I was asked to account for my actions and say, to mention the names of the students that had left the country, that I had driven out of the country. To say who their names were and to say about my dealings with - they alleged that I had dealings with Kit Mokwape who was their ANC contact in Botswana at the time.

I was beaten up, by in particular the security police called Rooi Otto. I believe he came from Komatipoort. This man tied - like I say my leg was in chains and my wrists were at the back. He gags me with a towel, with a towel and bashed my head against the wall, hurling insults. He beat

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me up, punched me, kicked me when I fell to the floor, he kicked me and got joined by another one called Fourie. The beating continued for half part of the night. I must have passed out, because the following day I was all wet. I was lying in a pool of water.

I must just mention that before teh beatings started, I had been standing for three days and three nights, I wasn't sitting down, until my legs were swollen. This was done throughout the time when I was under the asthma attack and I was denied tablets.

By Sunday - it must have been Sunday, yes, they told me it was Sunday, when I came to and wet, not allowed to wash. For the two previous days denied food. Then Rooi Otto came, I was still lying there, I couldn't stand up, I was numb, threw a packet of sanitary pads at me. I didn't know why he was doing that. I later asked to go to the bathroom. When I went to the bathroom I was surprised to find that I was menstruating, and I just wondered how he knew.

The next day two security police came, dressed in suits. I was left there alone. Two security police came in suits, dressed very immacutely and they introduced themselves and told me that they were Capt Dreyer and Capt Du Preez or Du Randt. They offered me food. They instructed that I should be given food and spoke very nicely to me. They asked me what my complaints were and that they regret what has happened to me, this is not the way a lady should be treated, and that I would be taken care of.

During that same week, before they could take me back to - no, they took me back, they didn't take me to the prison, they took me to a different police station, which I learnt to know as Loop Street to recuperate.

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But by the time, just before I left there was the security who brought food to me, his name was Lulu Okomede, there were two of them, who told me that my eye was in a state. My eye was swollen and I could only then start feeling that my eye was swollen, and that my nose, I had a broken bone, I think in my nose, and my gums were swollen. I had sustained a broken tooth which was only attended to a year later.

I was taken back from Loop Street, back to this police station I Alexandria, where again I was beaten up, thrown to the floor by some Fourie. Two guys exchanged punching me, throwing me up until I fell down on the floor, lifting me and throwing me up onto the floor, and this lasted for hours on end.

I was again taken back to Loop Street. You will realise that the dates and the days I cannot remember well. This happened in 1977. But this was basically the beating-up stage. I was put in the cell that was infested with lice. In the first place it was a wet cell. I don't know if they had been hose-piping it with water, washing it. It had a toilet on the floor, but that was all. There were two blankets thrown there and I was told that I could sleep if I wanted to. During that time they had not removed the chains. It was only the following day when the police at the police station complained that the chains were removed. They couldn't be held responsible for a person who is having chains on. The system told them that I may kill myself if my hands are free. But I didn't have any other clothing, except this skirt that was wet and a jersey, a polo-neck jersey that was also wet.

There was nothing to wash with, until two days later

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when I saw the magistrate. Actually, during that time I doubt if I was in my real senses really, because I know that I was screaming and inter-mingled with singing. It was all in a frenzy. I didn't know where I was, I didn't know what was happening. There were blood-stains splattered all over the cell, it was stinking and reeking and you know, in a very unhealthy condition, reeking of urine.

There was no way where I could wash, even if I had a washing rag. But two days later the magistrate came, asked for complaints and requests and all I asked for was my toiletries, which were left in the prison. They were brought to me later by Van Rooyen, who told me that I will never be given any tablets by them and actually this will make their lives much easier, because I am going to die of asthma.

Outside the police station, when I got my washing rags, I was shown where I could wash. It was running taps in the yards. There were buildings across at the back, where men were working. So I had to choose whether I wanted to wash and be watched by those men or remain in the cell, dirty.

One night this Van Rooyen came and he tried to strangle me, again with a towel, saying that I am not suffocating enough from asthma. But after he left, before he left, there was this uniformed policeman, called Taljaard, he was an oldish man. This Taljaard, after he left, Taljaard refused to go actually when Van Rooyen wanted to remain with me in the cell. He refused to go, and said it is his duty not to go and not lock the cell with somebody who is not a prisoner. Ultimately this Van Rooyen left and Taljaard asked me how he could help. He came back and asked how he could help me. I told him I needed tablets and it was at night. I

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had a friend - I knew that I was in Pietermaritzburg and I had a friend, Dr Hlongwe, who was doing her internship at the time in Edenvale prison. Taljaard managed to go to her and brought me a spray and asthma tablets, that he smuggled into the cell. I don't know where that man is, you know, heard where he was, but he really saved my life.

The following days the system just forgot all about me. When they came by with the magistrate it was just to say this one is suffering from asthma, and the magistrate didn't care at all either.

Ultimately around May, sort of like the third month that I had spent in that cell, we had run out of tablets and all things. Really, to be honest, I just lived on prayer and I knew that I was dying at that time.

Against the system's commands, it was again this Taljaard who called the district surgeon and said he can't take it anymore, he has got a sick woman in this cement floor cell and he insisted that the district surgeon should remove me from there.

MS SOOKA: Take your time if you ...

MS DEBORAH: Okay. Then I was taken in fact back - the district surgeon insisted that I should be taken to hospital. Instead of taking me to hospital they took me to the female prison and put me in a bigger cell, which was clean, because it was prison and it was next to the hospital, sick bay, whatever they call it, clinic, the prison clinic.

It was around May. I sat in that cell. Quite often not getting food. The attitude now was no longer from the system as such, from the security police, but from the prison wardresses. The prison wardresses were obviously given

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instructions. They would bring the porridge in the morning and you know, just leave it outside. I couldn't reach it, it was at the door outside. It was like starving, no food. When they eventually decided to kick the plate into the cell, it was already infested with ants. They had put a spoon of sugar there infested with ants. I knew that it was really not a waste. I was in solitary confinement all the time. In that cell my life continued.

Somewhere in October I complained of pain, it was gynaecologically related. I had been to prison, when I went to jail I had an ID and I told the district surgeon and I was taken to Edendale Hospital. Fortunately because it was a gynaecological problem they couldn't go in with me. But when I got there, I spoke to the nurse there quickly, saying look for Zola Hlongwe, this friend I had there, and Zola came.

This is when I learnt of the terrible news for the first time that Steve Biko had died, who had been a very close friend of mine.

I went back to prison. Or, I was supposed to be admitted there to have this thing removed, but instead the security refused and took me to a place, a private place in Howick, where it was removed by the district surgeon there. That night I think, I lost my mind again, that evening, and one of the wardresses came and just - because they could not open, I was not allowed outside, I was not allowed outside at all for exercises - came to the cell. I pulled her towards the bars and I beat her up, I beat her up against the bars, out of anger I beat her up against the bars. Actually at that stage I was just hoping I was taken to court, to meet people, to talk what I was undergoing.

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They came that night for me. Again, it was the same, same person who was the same person, Rooi Otto all the time. I was sjambokked that night at Alexandra Police Station. There were other people being tortured whom I can never know who they were, but I know that Marlo Simpumala was also around that time. I was beaten up but mainly for beating up this girl. But I must say that changed my life because again it was the same Dreyer who came the next day, when I had these sjambok marks, who asked me what I needed and for the first time I was allowed to have a Bible in my cell. I had nothing to read, nothing, nothing at all, it was just this empty cell. I was given a Bible and the district surgeon was called. I asked him to call the district surgeon to come and look at my marks. They spoke in Afrikaans and he told him that he doesn't think I am normal at this stage. And that they should like try to see if I could get a visit. The next month my father was allowed to see me, but in their midst and we couldn't talk much. He went away. They asked me what I wanted. I asked for a magazine and he brought me some wool and a crochet needle. Those are the instructions that the district surgeon that at least I should do something.

I went back to solitary confinement with something to do. I had a Bible to read and a magazine to read. I remember that arrogantly they brought me a Rooi Rose, but I read it.

In January I was told to pack my things. The beatings stopped, I wasn't beaten up, I was just living alone and not allowed to go out to the yard to exercise. In January I went for this long drive and then I came, when I came to I was in a prison, I was told it is Bethal. I was given a cell where SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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there was a bed, sheets and I was given good food, proper food to eat. Not the corn and things. They put clean food there, and there was a nurse there, an African nurse who spoke and conversed with me like daily.

Three days later, no, a week later I was take out to go and speak to the magistrate. No, first they allowed my sister to come and visit me and my father. They came, I got visits and it was like contact visit, the security was there. We hugged, we talked, they were there so we couldn't talk much. The next day the magistrate came. Dreyer was coming, you know, this nice security guy was coming to me every time and asking if I am okay, bringing me biscuits, chocolates.

It was like becoming human and the magistrate came, talked to me about making a statement. The statement that was saying that Saso is involved in the June 16 uprisings, and that we have been involved in taking people out of the country. The youth that have gone out of the country, communicating with Keith Mokape, and above all, a statement that was incriminating that we were couriers between banned people in the country, from across the political spectrum. Whereby they knew that Saso did not choose to deal with people on political party grounds.

Harry Gwala, I used to visit Harry Gwala in Natal before my involvement and they wanted to know why I went to Harry Gwala and the next thing why I went to Winnie Mandela. Zeph Motopeng and why did you go and see this one in East London. That kind of thing that when we were passing the messages. But the statement was incriminating a lot of other people. I refused to sign the statement, especially because I hadn't written it. They had written the

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statement.

When the magistrate brought the statement to me about Saso's activities that involved Steve Biko, Barney Petsane, Tom Manthata, all the people that I worked with, I refused to sign that statement.

They continued being nice and treating me well, but a few weeks down the line they did not beat me up this time. They were not torturing me. It was the magistrate who was speaking to me nicely and Dreyer.

Then I was told to pack my bag again. I was put in a car, this time they blindfolded me and drove me to a place, it is only like two, three days later, that I learnt that I was in Middelburg prison. It must have been around March. They put me in a small cell, Rooi Otto threw me there, with Susubi who was the security guard, a Black security guard that I knew from Krugersdorp.

This cell had no window and their hope was that I would again you know, get claustrophobic and get an asthma attack, but I think I had overcome all that. They told the two wardresses that - they spoke in Afrikaans, little realising that I understand that very well. They told the two wardresses Garabotha and Marina Harmse that I am a terrorist, they must be very careful of me, I was caught in Katimamolelo, with arms and ammunition and that they must move very far away from me.

That was a very uncomfortable situation where they used to run away. When I get out of the cell, they throw the plates, you know, like I am some wild animal, "vat jou kos gou" (take your food quickly), you know. I have to come and pick up my plate of food. Sometimes it spilt and then I have to collect it back into the plate, go back into the

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cell.

This escalated into a very oppressive and animosity and frankly speaking, I had nothing to lose. It was a very wild set-up. The area was very small and it was a place, an area where they kept prisoners, males for maximum, what was called maximum. They called it maximum when I communicated with them, and the male prisoners. They were en route to Barberton or to Hangbal somewhere, hard-core criminals.

There were times when two of them would fight with me and they would really overpower me. Time and again the magistrate would come and I would tell them what was going on, but he didn't care. After the magistrate left the security would ask them "het julle goed geslaan" (did you give her a good hiding) and they would say "ja" (yes). Fights would ensue any time. They would start it and at times I would even started before they started. So I lived for the six months in Middelburg.

The magistrate allowed me to be taken to the dental clinic. I had sustained a broken tooth a year ago in Pietermaritzburg. They said they should take me out because all I pleaded for was that time and again, at times I don't get tablets, the tablets they give me for pain, so if I could just have it extracted. They took me to a dentist in Middelburg, and I went there in handcuffs. It is quite a public place, because there were workers around who were swearing at them, you know, how can you put a woman in handcuffs.

But I knew for the method that they were no longer assaulting me, I knew that they were defeated, but I was in solitary confinement all the time. I had already almost completed 500 days in solitary confinement. That was

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normal.

At the end of August, somewhere, I was told that I was being released and that I was being released. I was driven to Krugersdorp with two other guys who apparently also had been kept in Middelburg. I didn't know that. Solly Rametse who is now a councillor, I think in Alexandria. They dropped him off at Park Station. He had come from Jo'burg, from Soweto and this other guy Hippo, I don't know his name, but we both were driven to Krugersdorp. He was told he could go. I was told to wait. I waited in an office, it was some time in the afternoon.

At about half past five or six that evening Coetzee told me that there is a telex from Pretoria and I was being redetained. Then I was driven to the Fort that night. The next day I was told that I was being detained under Section 10. At least there were two people that I could communicate with, there was Thubi Mayet who was in a cell and Gladys Mansi, who had also apparently been released from Section 6. A doctor was allowed to come and see me and I was taken to the Johannesburg Hospital, where I was told that I was suffering from malnutrition and anxiety. I don't know if you will believe that I had no hair, just, you know, I was almost bald, you know my hair had been coming out, was falling out. I was given tablets.

I stayed at the Fort, so then I had companions and I was allowed a weekly visit from my family. Until December when this time it came in a letter from Jimmy Kruger, Section 10 you actually got a letter from him, that you could be released.

On the day two security police came to take me home, they said and you know, I was actually reluctant and refused SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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to go, and saying no, I will find my own way home, because of the nasty experiences that I had had. They told me that they served me with a banning order, that you are actually supposed to be out of Johannesburg, you have got to back to Krugersdorp. So I was given, served with a five year banning order, and was released from prison.

My life outside was no different. I had to sign at the police station every Monday. On two particular occasions, the first time I got this very good job. I saw this advert trainee manager. I applied for this job, with Woolworths, a very good company, a well-paying job. After three months they discovered that I was working. I was called to the office and told that I have to go, because the security police say I should not be allowed to work there. I couldn't go back to my profession. Oh, yes, I told you that I was a radiographer before. I couldn't work, because I would be in the company of more than two people.

I just a week before they detained me in Vrede, I just got married. I went to register our marriage at the magistrate's office. So when I came out of prison and to celebrate our wedding in church, I was not allowed to attend the wedding. I had to remain in the bedroom throughout the wedding celebrations. Obviously my friends also had been banned or had gone into exile.

I kept on meeting this Joe Sosobe, security police. I remember one day him telling me that you know, you should count your blessings, "male Madimo", because in Pietermaritzburg we are going to make history with you, you are going to be a woman that dies in detention, and we also had easy with you, because you had ill-health, and it was going to very easy.

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Little realising that most of the time when they were torturing me, during interrogation, and couldn't even talk. Even though I would have wanted to answer them and stand my point, but I couldn't talk because I had no breath. It sort of compounded the situation and caused a vicious circle, they thought she is stubborn, you know. I couldn't talk, I would just look at them. I asked for tablets, there are no tablets, I am ill, you talk.

So basically that was it and those are the atrocities that I underwent. Thank you.

MS SOOKA: Just a few questions. You said right at the beginning that you were in the full-time employ of Sactwu as a literacy director. Were you one of the members of the executive committee?

MS DEBORAH: Yes, I was one of the members of the executive committee. There were three who were like on the payroll, I was getting paid. The permanent organiser, one of the - just before (indistinct), we were getting paid, but every year they had to have re-elections, yes, and I was kept on.

MS SOOKA: In the time that you helped and assisted students to leave the country, how many students do you, could you assess actually left the country in that time?

MS DEBORAH: Gee, there was for instance, a particular day when the Kombi went three times to Zeerust. We mostly went - our contacts were in the rural area of Zeerust. My brother Tani did most of the driving. Solomon Mahlanga was one of the students that later left the country, through that age, but we actually did not even want to know their names. It was very difficult even to assess if they were working for the system or not. It was just a situation of desperation. Hundreds of students were shipped out of the

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country during that period, just after June, you know, June and July.

MS SOOKA: Since we have taken this step to democracy, what do you actually do with yourself right now?

MS DEBORAH: After the banning order was lifted, I continued with my studies through Unisa and qualified in human resources. I worked as a personnel manager for one company for about eight years and at the moment I am employed by Old Mutual Properties as property investment analyst.

MS SOOKA: So you have in fact survived all of this.

MS DEBORAH: Yes, I could simply say I am still coping, there is still a lot that I am healing myself with. For instance, my marriage didn't work out, you know, invariably coming from prison, five years I had to spend, my husband came from Pretoria and he had to live in Pretoria while I lived in Krugersdorp. We were not allowed to live together and thereafter it became very difficult and I am all right. When I look, comparatively speaking, comparing myself with others.

MS SOOKA: Part of our job as you know, is to make recommendations to Government. So as to ensure that violations like these don't take place again. Is there anything that you would like to add in that respect?

MS DEBORAH: Yes, it is true, it is very inhuman acts. Actually, I think one of the things that sustained me, during solitary confinement when I lived with these people, is that were times when I pitied them more than hated them. You know. I couldn't understand, I remember I used to tell them that I am a daughter and a wife, I had a little baby that I had left at home with my mother. I think I really pitied them, it is a very inhuman act and it shouldn't

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happen. I don't think they are happy either.

MS SOOKA: Throughout all of this the one thing that remains in one's mind is the fact that even in this system there was still policemen who were human, and I think particularly of Taljaard who cared enough to try and make a difference.

MS DEBORAH: Yes, it is true, because of such people that you really, you know, you really feel that there were people who were human, yes, for such people like Taljaard, because he couldn't stand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much. Could I just ask if any of the other Commissioners would have any questions. Tom, you seem to know ...

MR MANTHATA: Yes. Political parties being banned at that time, and I think there was the Black People's Convention. What did you think of it?

MS DEBORAH: At the time once SASO emerged, there were no political parties, political parties were banned and it is only after SASO emerged that the Black People's Convention was born. But before SASO, there was a lull in the country and political parties were banned.

MR MANTHATA: That's true, your activities, if I understand you correctly, were by and large during the era of the Black People's Convention which was started roughly in 1973. And most of the account you give is around that time.

MS DEBORAH: You know, I meant just before, before it was born, there was a lull in the country.

MR MANTHATA: You taught Power of Free Method, which I guess was very powerful and very successful. Where would you place that method now in the education systems of our day?

MS DEBORAH: I think it is still relevant, Tom, it is still very relevant because it inculcates a sense of

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self-reliance. That's what we still need. We still need that. It is a very revolutionary method and it succeeded in revolutionising people at that time. It is still a very powerful method and still very effective. It can still be used to inculcate a sense of self-reliance, especially for people who still think that they should wait for you know, hand-outs.

MR MANTHATA: When you were held in Pietermaritzburg, after how long were you given access to the district surgeon?

MS DEBORAH: After - I was detained in February, after, in about May, I was given access to the district surgeon in May, when Taljaard called the district surgeon to come and see me. It was after four months.

MR MANTHATA: Debs, what would you say to the young ladies today, more especially when you look at your past, perhaps even putting together the experiences of people like Lulu, people like Denyon Nintinso. What do you think of your experiences?

MS DEBORAH: Tom, for one, I have got no regrets. I want to say that, quoting for instance Tensuous, where she one day encouraged me and then smuggled a message to me when I was at the Fort, that we are in the struggle because we are sure of victory. If we were not sure of victory we wouldn't be in the struggle. I would say to them conviction goes a long way and principles go a long way. You do something not for reward, not for recognition. You do something because you are convinced that it is the right thing to do.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you, Debs.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hlengiwe?

MS MKHIZE: I have one quick question for you. Would you say besides an acknowledgement of the value behind all the

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sacrifices that people of South Africa have made, there is room now to look at their emotional scars and begin to create structures to deal with them?

MS DEBORAH: I still think it is still very important because some people might have been lucky and have you know, access to counselling, or even family support. One thing that helped me was that my family was very, very supportive. My parents, my siblings, in spite of the fact that I remember that at some point when I was in prison, invariably all of them - I only learnt later when I came that there was a time when for several days, all of them, all of them, from my sister, my brother, all of them were imprisoned to be questioned by me. It affected the entire family. So I still feel that there is a need for people who need healing, to have access to this. There is definitely a need for that. I am not sure if I am completely healed myself. There are times when I question myself and ask myself isn't it because I haven't healed, isn't it because I haven't healed. I think it is very important that there should be, people should have access to that kind of healing. We need that. Including the perpetrators of the violence. I would still like to see for instance what that man Sosobe is doing, you know. One would still like to see him coming up. He knows so much.

CHAIRPERSON: Deborah, thank you very much indeed. I have just one very brief question, because it ties up with evidence that we are going to hear later this week, on Friday morning, in fact. You mentioned, I think it was at Bethal, the arrival of the Magi, the magistrate, to come and take your statement. Now presumably this is under the Terrorism Act.

MS DEBORAH: Yes.

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CHAIRPERSON: But even under that act, was it not correct for the magistrate to come to enquire about your conditions, not to be an instrument of the State in that way?

MS DEBORAH: You are right. I think the strategy here was that when - I remember I told the magistrate, instead of giving him a statement I told him about what I had been through. He said no, that happened in Pietermaritzburg, I want to know about things, you know, he even spoke in Zulu, about (indistinct), you know; how are they treating you here. And indeed, I was eating good food. I told him, and I sleep on a bed. I slept on this bed for those three, four weeks there. And he didn't want to know about things that didn't happen, he wanted to know about things that happened there. And I remember saying to him, but the statement that you want to know is about things that happened, not here. He wanted to know about my activities and activities of other people. He was not interested in knowing. He knew what had happened to me, I think, and he was part of the system. He was part of the system.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I think that it is just in closing, I would like to say that I think it is very apt that you have testified to end off today's session, because what you have told us ties in and rounds up very nicely what we heard about the previous two days about June 16th and everything that went from there. I would like to say that as a Commission we obviously need please to co-operate further and get more information from you, about your experiences, so that you can assist us and advise us further in our work. But I would like to thank you very, very much. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE).

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Before closing the session this afternoon, I would like just to mention two things, please. The first is that we are hearing, we are holding hearings again tomorrow and on Friday. For those who might be interested, I am not going to mention names, because that is not our wont, but we will be dealing with the whole time from the Sixties through to the Nineties. We wil be talking about unlawful arrests.

We will be talking, particularly tomorrow, concentrating on people who are giving evidence about events outside the country. For instance, an assassination in Zimbabwe, about a son being killed in Botswana, about a brother disappearing and dying in Swaziland, about someone imprisoned in Zambia and Tanzania. So there is, if you like, an international or regional flavour to most of the evidence that we will hear tomorrow.

We will start again at nine o'clock. We would welcome participation from as many people as possible. I would like to thank everybody who has sat through the cold with us today. I would like to thank particularly the witnesses who have come forward and in closing tonight's session, could I please ask again, the ear-phones belong here for helping people tomorrow to hear. Please leave your ear-phones and your machines before you leave.

Thank you very much, this session is closed.

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