CHAIRPERSON: I would like to welcome in a special way Mr Valli Moosa and the head of the Jewish Board of Deputies. Please, if they can both stand and we give them a warm welcome.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you very much. I will ask Mr Dyasop - we welcome you, Sir. I will ask Commissioner Yasmin Sooka to assist you in giving your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like you, Sir ...

L DYASON: Just repeat what you said?

CHAIRPERSON: I would like you to stand so that I can assist you in taking the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a confusion here. The brief is talking in Sotho, he is speaking in Zulu.

L DYASON: No, I understand Sotho, but I do not hear you.

LUTHANDO DYASOP: (Duly sworn, states).

MS SOOKA: Mr Dyasop, are you comfortable where you are sitting? You seem ...

L DYASON: Yes, I am comfortable.

MS SOOKA: Your story is quite a difficult one, because you have been imprisoned at different times by the South African Police and you were then kept at Quattro. I have given us quite a lengthy statement. I would like you to tell us very, very briefly a little bit about yourself, how you came to be SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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imprisoned in South Africa and then your subsequent arrest and your confinement at Quattro, please. If you will begin to tell us your story.

L DYASOP: I think firstly I must say that I was not arrested here in South Africa, first of all. I was arrested in Quattro.

MS SOOKA: Could you, before you begin that, could you tell us a little bit about your personal details, please.

L DYASOP: Firstly, my name is Luthando Dyasop. I am originally from Umtata in the Transkei or former Transkei. I had done my education up to matric, that is in 1976, but I must say that when I went to school, I was more interested in education and I myself, I must say that I am an artist. Something which is in the family, I must say. My father taught me art and I have always loved art. When I went to school, it was for the love of education. But then my father wanted me to be somebody. I shouldn't an artist like he was, I should be somebody, maybe a teacher, a clerk, but I was not interested in that. But then I had to get something, a career. Then I got interested in architecture. Then came 1976, I was doing my matric. Of course there were the June 1976 riots, which influenced the whole country. In Transkei, Transkei has been a place that has been, people have been politically motivated even prior to 1976. In our local schools there used to be from time to time, schools like St Johns, there would be strives, which were politically motivated, and as you know, even the now President comes from that side. People who had been politically, been inclined sort of or ...

So when 1976 came, I wanted, I knew that after my matric I had to do this architecture, but then I found

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that architecture was not, there was no faculty for Black people in South Africa, for architecture.

Now this really disappointed me and I wasn't going to change maybe to be a clerk or a teacher or really I got frustrated. So I used to help my father, as he is a painter, would go painting around Umtata, even outside the Transkei, we will be moving around with my father.

Until of course, some people whom I later realised to be ANC people, I befriended these people. We got more and more political. That was from 1976. When I failed my matric in 1976, and when I repeated it in 1977 I knew that my mind was not there. So I soon, I just dropped out from matric in 1977 and later well, I just decided that I should go to exile and join the ANC.

Of course, there was the raid of freedom, which was also encouraging us to join the liberation movements. So in 1980 I left for Lesotho. I arrived in Carters Neck(?) in November, the 2nd. I was kept in that Carters Neck police station and whilst they were still connecting with the UN. Then I was in the 14th of November, I was transferred to Maseru. Where I could have a chance to join the ANC and the MKs.

Well, Lesotho was a different passage as opposed to others like Swaziland and Botswana. People like there stayed longer than these other countries. In Lesotho I stayed from that November until September 1981. That's when I left for Maputo where I didn't stay long and then I went further to Luanda, back to Angola.

On December 17th 1981 I got my military training in Gamanlondi training camp. We were later transferred to Quaqualama. We opened this camp Qquaqualam in February 1982 SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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and our military, our course was suspended for some weeks.

Then it was resumed later. After we had finished our course, around July 1982, I was taken to Quashito camp, also in Angola. This Quashito camp is where people are prepared. They get their last preparations before they can infiltrate inside the country.

I regarded myself very lucky to get the opportunity to come and fulfil my dream of fighting for my country. But then there in Quashito I was to specialise in an anti-air gun, called Straler 2M. So we got these instructors from the Soviet Union. The course was supposed to be six months. We did that six months and then we have some revision. After that revision, well, there was a bit of a lull. Then in August 1983 we were taken from Quashito. In my group that was doing this Straler 2M was 16. By the time we were 15, because our commander was ill.

The 15 of us were taken wholesome to the Eastern front. We were not briefed where we were going. I thought I was coming back to South Africa to fight, but then we were taken to this Eastern front and I was there with my group, we were in this group called Kagiso.

In Kagiso we stayed. Of course it was a relief for some, for most members in the MK, who had been languishing in the bush, doing nothing. Now having that chance, at least, to be within the community, to learn the beauties of some Portuguese and to have some experience. Because that was the main thing that we were told, that we were going to this Eastern front to get some experience. It will be a matter of some three months, we get this experience, then we can use that experience here in South Africa.

So we were fighting against Unita of Savimbi. Now

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Now as I have said, it was a relief to most of us, but then the reality was that we were fighting a war with people who were also fighting. So when we got some casualties - our first casualty was when we were ambushed and the one comrade whose name was Caroline, died in that ambush. What followed was that it was a hot pursuit after those who had ambushed our trucks, in which Caroline died.

Now one thing I must highlight is that we were fighting people who were guerillas, and we were also guerillas. We were not taught in counter-insurgency. Having never been taught in counter-insurgency, we were not even assisted by the Government of Angola, because they had trucks, they had bigger guns, they had all the facilities, but we did this on our own.

Of course we were fighting alongside some locals who were not trained. They just got this crash course which would last some three weeks, then they will be handed an AK and we were to fight alongside such upstarts.

All right. Now the reality was that we were fighting and when we suffered these casualties and we made this hot pursuit, and we found out that Unita, Unita's strategy was to terrorise the people and capture them. They didn't mind capturing the whole village, and they would leave the old people, old people who cannot help them. Then they take the young ones, together with food and they would go along with them, take them to the bush and train them.

Now we did our best and now on that hot pursuit, we arrested a lot of people, more especially people in whose villages we found our team staff which had been captured in that ambush.

Now I must say that in trying to get evidence from

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these people, some of us got harsh on these local people. To the extent that these people knew, the locals now tended to have a negative attitude towards us.

Now these people are not well-educated people. They know that we are from South Africa and they know that in the south the South Africans are killing their brothers. They said to us but you say you are fighting against the racists in South Africa, but how come now you kill our own people, and yet the racists down south are killing our people.

There was some disillusionment from the side of the Angolans, they did not want to co-operate with us, and now this was becoming dangerous for us, for our own safety.

For instance, they didn't mind at the post, at the guard post, just to put the AK there and sleep this side, so that if Unita comes, the Unita can just take his AK and leave him alone.

This was the case and what happened is that we continued with some missions, because one thing that we were told, is that we were to defend the capital of Malanga province, which is Malange, and Unita was aiming to capture the Malange province. So we were a buffer between them and Malange. Sokikosa was strategically a place where, a place which we ... (TAPE 1 - SIDE B).

... trying to trace now the Unita rebels, trace from their bases, because we had gathered information that they were across the river, the river Quanla.

MS SOOKA: Sorry, Mr Dyasop, in your statement you basically deal with your treatment at Quattro. I think that perhaps you should tell us about what actually led to your confinement at Quattro, please.

L DYASOP: Okay. Okay, I will try to be brief and I don't

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know whether you will understand.

So I can say, what later transpired is that we got disillusioned of the whole Eastern front. We said we have been told that we are going to be here for some three months and now we are dying. That is around, after December, when some of us got, who were in an ambush, we were ambushed and there were six people who died there. So we said no, we are dying here, why can't we go and die at home, rather than dying here in Angola. Because that was the time when even Sebe and Umtanzani was killing people and so we felt rather use - we were fighting a useless, we were protecting, defending a country whose people were not supporting us.

Now of course, one thing led to the next. When we found out that our organisation for a long time has not been holding a conference, a national conference, where leaders can be elected democratically, it was something that was lax in 1969, the Morogo Conference.

So we said let us, we were so concerned about our organisation and about the whole liberation, and I am not talking about me alone, I am talking about almost 99% of the people who were in Angola at the time.

Now I am coming to how I got, myself got into Quattro.

Now we demanded that we be withdrawn from this Eastern front, back to Luanda, where we can settle everything. When we got to Luanda, our administrators in the Luanda camp, that is in Vienna, demanded that we should disarm. We said no, we cannot disarm because we know that the security of the ANC and us are not on good books.

MS SOOKA: Sorry ...

L DYASOP: Of course this was - sorry ...

MS SOOKA: Could I just ask who "us" is, is your whole team

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of 15?

L DYASOP: 15, I am talking about the whole group at the Eastern front, the whole group of people, we were around 500 to 600.

Now I don't know whether you will understand this, because I am making such a rush-off ...

All right, but I will try.

MS SOOKA: Relax, please, take your time. Try and focus on what you want to tell the Commission.

L DYASOP: Because I want to take you step by step so that you can understand how I got to Quattro. But okay, I am saying now, we were in this Vienna camp and we were ordered to disarm, and we disagreed. We said no, we won't kill anybody, this is for our security and the security of the ANC had said, had labelled us as mutineers. We knew that being labelled as mutineers, is tantamount to being - the next thing we will be sentenced to death. That is something which we knew. Something we knew, we had been told of.

Now we kept our weapons to us, with us. Until of course many things happened, whilst we were there. For instance, the administration said we should elect 10 people who will represent our grievances and all like. We elected those 10 people and they forwarded our grievances. But then we never dropped our guard, we were always careful.

What happened is that on the 12th of February 1984, there was a pre-dawn raid on our camp by the presidential guard. Now when we got to this Vienna camp, because we were so many, some of us said occupy positions around this Vienna camp. We had some positions, we had our bivouac there. Now I was asleep in my bivouac on that dawn, when I heard a combat bell "gang, gang, gang, gang", which means in

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military language that we are being attacked. I woke up and I could hear some fire. All I did was to take my bazooka and my shells and my AK and I had around 500 to 600 rounds of ammunition and I ran - I didn't know what was happening, it was still dark, I was just running towards the trench, the nearest trench. I found that I was amongst the people who were related to wake-up. So I thought it best that I should run to the nearest trench. When I got to this trench there were another four people there. Four comrades. I thought the enemy would come from this side, so I was - we were just across the parapet, but then we find that the enemy was not coming from outside, it was coming from within. Although we had to aim now, we had to aim our guns and face whoever this enemy was. We didn't know who the enemy was at the time.

Then I could see that there were some armoured vehicles coming in and dropping soldiers, soldiers who - no, when they came, this was our Vienna camp and these soldiers were forming a skirmish around our Vienna camp. Little did they imagine that they were encircled by us. Because we were outside their own settlement. So they were themselves encircled.

So from my trench there was this APC, which was around 20 to 25 metres from our trench. It was a trench to us. Now at the time it was still dark, they didn't know, they didn't see. They were only facing, they had their backs to us. If we would have liked, we could have killed them, but we didn't want to, because we didn't know what was happening. Until the sun rose from the east and they were getting tired, they didn't know what was happening. Similarly they had gone inside the camp and found nobody,

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only a few people who were there.

Now they were surprised, where are these hundreds, and now they were getting impatient. Now the driver of this APC climbed onto the top of the APC. He opened this flip-top and climbed on top, still with his back to us, still facing the camp. But now when the sun rose, he got less interested in his target and he got interested in the beauty of the nature. That's when he came slowly, just looking how beautiful the nature was and I knew that we were going to be in problems, once they spotted us. And he did spot us. And when he spotted us, he jumped inside the APC, opened the side door and called the commander who was down the skirmish and said hey, here are these people.

When the commander saw us, he came rushing and he said hey, come out of the trench. He was speaking in Portuguese, come out of that trench or I will kill you now. We said but why, tell us why, what do you want here. This commander was so impatient, he didn't even realise that we had our gains trained on them. He took out his grenade and he was about to throw it into the trench, and I imagined what would follow if that grenade landed in the trench. What would follow would be our inevitable end.

So what I did, with my bazooka, I pulled the trigger, aimed at the APC and I shot that APC. When I shot that APC the sound that was emanated by the bazooka was the sound that disturbed this commander. So he couldn't throw it at his own wheel. He was only letting go of it. It exploded some three or five metres from my trench.

What happened is that my comrades assisted with fire power, their power, their fire power, but we were not aiming at these people, they were only aiming above their heads.

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We were only scaring them away. They ran helter-skelter towards the camp, towards the Vienna camp. By the time this driver of the APC was trying to turn the APC towards our trench. I had to realise that APC, and with the rest of my shells I shot that APC. I am made to understand the driver died. But I will be saving these other lives with my life too. Successfully I saved those lives. They are alive now, happily with their families. I didn't know that that was going to be my scene. Having saved those people, I didn't know, hardly you can imagine that it was going to change my whole life till today.

MS SOOKA: What happened after that?

L DYASOP: What happened after that, we had to withdraw from this trench, because it was so clear, so near this Fapla forces. We had to run deeper into the bush. So they realised that we had stopped our fire, they came and they shot at us. We were just lucky, because these people were really shooting at us, aiming at us. Those bullets were whizzing like this, past us. We managed to get to the trench. When we managed to get to that trench, it was then that the rest of these Fapla forces, that they realised that they were themselves encircled. My other comrades had their guns also levelled at them.

Now these others realised that they were going to die. They said no, no, no, comrades, comrades, please don't shoot at us. Now it was now going to be, we were now going to negotiate why people, why did you come here to kill.

One other thing I must mention is that when they came, those shots that I heard, really, they were aimed at us, and one comrade died, that comrade Bugsy died. So I, when I was shooting at that APC, I wasn't the one, the first one who

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was shooting. They had themselves shot and they had killed. So it was a war situation. Like I said, little did I imagine that I would end up in Quattro.

So in short, that was the reason why I ended up in Quattro. But let me just detail, continue, because what happened is that they didn't know who had shot the APC. What they did, they arrested somebody else. I don't know why they, my own comrades wanted to arrest us, us. Instead of arresting the Fapla forces who had come shooting and killing our own comrades, but they were prepared to arrest us, to arrest me. Though they didn't arrest me, they arrested somebody else.

Now so I escaped arrest, I escaped immediate arrest. I was arrested later in - when I was already in another camp called Bhengu. So I was arrested on the 26th of April 1984. I got to Quattro ...

MS SOOKA: Sorry, was your arrest because you killed the driver of the APC?

L DYASOP: I am coming to that. I got to Quattro. They didn't tell me that they were taking me to Quattro, you know, they said they are taking me back to Quashito where I had been before I even went to the eastern front. The road was leading to Quattro. When I was about to ask people that this road doesn't lead to - I mean, this road doesn't lead to Quashito, where are we going, they ordered me out of the Land Rover and they encircled me and with their AKs aimed at me, and they ordered me to lie down on the road. I thought they were going to kill me, but they didn't kill me. I only tied me on my back and kicked me inside the Land Rover and piled a lot of newspapers on top of me, so that if we pass any control posts those local people wouldn't see that there SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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is somebody who was arrested.

So I got to Quattro, I didn't even know I was in Quattro. But when I was in Quattro, one of these Land Rovers stopped. They all got out and then I heard a voice that was Dan Mashego. Dan Mashego who was a chief of staff in Quattro, ordered me to get out. So I tried to get out of this pile of papers and whilst I was trying to climb out of this Land Rover he kept on punching me. So he punched me and punched me back, I lost my tooth, even before I could even get into that reception of Quattro. When I saw that this was going to be the way, he forced me to get out and he kicked me more. I fell on top of those flowers and they took me and ordered me inside the reception.

When I was in the reception, when I was in the reception I was faced with different people, not my comrades. They were different now. They ordered me to strip. They ordered me to strip and they gave me a new uniform which was big in size and it was louse-ridden. It was dirty, it was louse-ridden and they give me a size 10 tackies, both of the left foot. Different designs but both of the left foot. Kingsley, Kingsley, I had trained with Kingsley. Kingsley took out a cable and hit me on the soles of my feet, it is that here, he was beating me so that I cannot run away, I cannot escape Quattro. Now you are in Quattro you no longer have any rights, forget about calling us comrades, you now no more have any rights, you have only two rights: to work hard and to be beaten.

Whoever you meet here, any warder you meet here, is your commander, and from now on forget calling us comrades. I couldn't even have a chance to ask them what was happening, because they left and in came warders who didn't

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know me, I didn't even know them. They started beating me up, beating me up, beating me up. I couldn't, I didn't know, I couldn't understand what was going on. They kicked me into isolation. I stayed in isolation for two months.

But the following day, because I was worried the whole night, what is happening, why am I here, I asked the warder who was opening the door the following morning, to take me to the administration. When I got to the administration I asked people, why do you take me here, because I am made to understand this is the place where enemy agents are kept, and unless there is another definition of an enemy agent, I am not an enemy agent, tell me why do you bring me here. They didn't answer me. One by one they left and one by one enters these warders and again beating me up.

The only idea I could get as to why I was in Quattro, was the name they gave me, they called me APC, APC hitman, that I am the responsible man for that APC who was shot in Vienna. Now this name really got me into ... (PAUSE) ...

MS SOOKA: Take your time.

L DYASOP: This name got me into big things. There was this guy Fortunate. Fortunate who took it upon him, it was as if they had told him that he should beat me. He came to my isolation, beat me every day. Even when I was released from that isolation, and I joined someone who had been in prison before, because they had people who had been imprisoned, including that group of ten which we had elected. These people, I had to - after my two months in isolation I joined them. They were five and we were six. So every morning we would take our - there are these dirty buckets that we used, and to go down and throw them - but on our way to and fro, these warders would be lined up, they would beat us as much

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as they liked. But Fortunate, I mean, this guy, Fortunate, took it upon himself, he was responsible for me. He would - I knew automatically that here is Fortunate, let me go and get some beating. So Fortunate would beat me with this coffee sticks or guava sticks or sometimes he would take a small, a small something else, it is like a latch and beat me on my back and say he is writing the date on which I will be released from Quattro.

I can say there in Quattro, really when they say you have got the right to be detained, those words are really execute that order, that they are going to beat you up. Whether there is a good reason or not.

For instance, they would have a reason. Of course, everybody can clean up this cable, but if you order me to clean this cable in two seconds, it is impossible, and if I do not do that in two seconds, I will be beaten up. So that is the pretext, they used pretexts to beat us up.

MS SOOKA: I just want to ask you some questions for clarification. You say that you arrived at Quattro but you were not told about why you had been brought there. Is that correct?

L DYASOP: Yes, that's why I even asked them. I even asked them why they are arresting me. They didn't tell me. They didn't tell me.

MS SOOKA: How long did you spend in Quattro?

L DYASOP: I stayed in Quattro from that 26th of April 1984 to 16 November 1988.

MS SOOKA: Besides the beatings, can you tell us what other ill-treatment you sustained during your stay in Quattro?

L DYASOP: I remember one time I was suffering from malaria, well, I had just recuperated from malaria, it was then

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whether you have recuperated or not, the treatment for malaria there is only three days. Whether you are well or you are not well, you are ordered back to work.

Now I was, I had been attacked by this malaria. Now I was ordered to work. We were chopping wood. Now they were telling us that we were going to chop wood which will last for, from June 16 to June 26th. So we were made to chop that wood within two days. It was difficult for me. The first day I managed. The following day I could not. And then there was this Mayboyi, Mayboyi is from Tanzania. Mayboyi said, and we had been together in Lesotho, but Mayboyi was no more my friend now. Mayboyi said ja, you are not working like the others. He beat me up, ordered me to stand on my head. I got more and more dizzy, but he beat me up more and then I just lost consciousness. I collapsed. It was early, around 11 o'clock, but when I came to it was, I was in my cell and it was dark and it was in the evening. My other inmates told me that they had tried their best, all these hours, they had even ordered them to stop working, for fear that they would also collapse like me.

MS SOOKA: Could I just ask, during your time at Quattro, was there no way that you could appeal to anybody so that you could put your side of the story?

L DYASOP: Appeal? No. The leaders would come, but then they would make a mockery out of the whole thing. For instance, when Chris Hani came, he was with John Motavi, they made a mockery out of the whole thing, because we were the ones who had ordered, who had demanded the conference which was later to be held in 1985 in Quabe in Zambia. But we are the people who had demanded the conference, were in jail during the time the conference was held. Now when Chris Hani came,

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they said yes, we are going to, you are going to hold this national conference, whether you like it or not and don't think it is because of your efforts. Now with such people it was simply difficult to address. One thing they knew is that we were not enemy agents. One other thing I must highlight in Quattro is that when leaders came, they still called us comrades. They referred to us as comrades, yes comrade so-and-so, yes comrade so-and-so, but they would make sure, it is out of ear-shot of the rest of the warders. The administration in Quattro wouldn't call us comrades, but wouldn't call us enemy agents and wouldn't even call us by those names, derogatory names of Quattro, but would only call us by our Sotho names. Now this meant there was a lot of double standards going on there.

Now I am going to answer your question and I can only say there was nobody at our rescue.

MS SOOKA: Could you also tell me when you were ill, were you given access to medical facilities?

L DYASOP: Medical facilities in Quattro can be a torment, in a sense. Because when you get to the clinic, right behind the clinic, the door of the clinic, there is a lot of sticks there, coffee sticks. In case, in case they say no, you are malingering, you have come here now for the third day complaining about the same malaria, now you are going to get instead of chloroquinne, you are going to get this coffee stick which we later called chloro-coffee.

Now I must say, I must say this treatment of Quattro, medical treatment was not medical treatment in the sense. Because what happened is that you would know that my three days of treatment had lasted, so I won't go to the clinic. Now this had its own repercussions on your health, because

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you are expected to go to work, and there you would be expected to perform. Now this, I mean you are not here to well, and since you are not yet well - I want to quote an example. In September 1985 one of my inmates died. He had anaemia, he was suffering from anaemia and he had gone to the clinic. The clinic said no, you are malingering, we know you don't want to work. Instead they beat him up. So he didn't go to the clinic any more. But we could see that he is sick, his condition was getting worse. We even asked our commissar in the cell and go and report to the Commander Bro, that because this was our commander, this man who was suffering. We said go and report to the commander, Shuety , our commander is getting seriously getting worse. Because he couldn't stand up easily, he couldn't even balance well. He didn't eat well and his tongue was turning greyish-green. He had here some varicose veins and when our commissar went to tell the Bro, he came with Dan Mashego. When they came they said ja, we have been treating you with kid gloves, you are now going to face the real music. We said no, but this man is ill. We even when Bro came into the cell, Shuety, the man who later died, trying to stand up to attention but he could not. They said ja, you are still defiant, because we have been treating you with kid gloves. You are now going to get real treatment. But ...

MS SOOKA: Sorry, was he given access to a doctor?

L DYASOP: Not a doctor, just a paramedic, we had paramedics in Quattro. So when Bro was ridiculing all this, unfortunately Shuety collapsed in front of him, and it wasn't even five minutes, he was dead.

MS SOOKA: Tell me what eventually led to your own release from Quattro?

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L DYASOP: What led to that in reality it was the political situation. If you remember in 1988 there was going to be a solution for the Namibian question. The South African Government, the Namibian Government and Swapo together agreed that there will be no more - I can say it was pressure from the question of Namibia, that they said well, we are going to release you and we were released, otherwise things, it was going to be indefinite arrest.

MS SOOKA: You mention in your statement that you appeared before three commissions, the Skeyiwa Commission in 1992, the Douglas Commission in 1993 and the Motshyanane Commission in 1993. Yet, your names were never cleared. Could you tell us what you expected from those commissions?

L DYASOP: Yes, I can say first of all, there was this Steward Commission. The Steward Commission was the commission which followed the so-called mutiny in Angola. But the Steward Commission, all our recommendations and our demands were met by the commission, but what happened is that we were still arrested. All right.

Now came these Skeyiwa Commission. Lewis Skeyiwa Commission also admitted that some people were not actually enemy agents, as alleged. Whatever some people said about Quattro was no fabrication, it was something that was there. But then the commission had its recommendations, but they were not heeded by the very organisation that had come up with the commission.

MS SOOKA: So all in all you didn't get very much satisfaction from any of these commissions.

L DYASOP: Yes, the commissions themselves did their job, but now the onus was on the organisation to - I mean these recommendations, it was the organisation was to meet the

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recommendations of these commissions. But nothing has happened. Even until today.

MS SOOKA: I think that obviously we would need to go back to those commissions and look the evidence that you had presented to those commissions and then come back to you on this particular issue. However, one of the Commission's tasks is to recommend to Government policies which will ensure that gross human rights violations don't take place in the future, and also policies around reparation. Would you like to comment on that for us, please?

L DYASOP: Sorry, just repeat the question, please.

MS SOOKA: It seems quite clear that we, from the evidence that you have given to us, that you have also given evidence to all of these different commissions. I think we will need to go back to those commissions and also have a look at that in regard to your own case, and we will probably have to call you in so that we can take a further statement from you. I think that is what we are going to have to do in your particular case. But in addition to that, part of the job of this particular Commission is to recommend to Government policy recommendations to ensure that gross human rights violations don't take place again in our country. In addition to that, where we find that people have been the victims of gross human rights violations, we also have to recommend to Government a reparation and rehabilitation policy, in terms of those particular victims. What I am asking you is whether you have any ideas which you would like to offer and suggestions to this Commission about both issues; gross human rights violations and a reparation policy in the future.

L DYASOP: Well, I am sorry to say this, but seemingly those SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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gross violations of human rights, seemingly didn't end up in exile. I don't know whether according to the statement you have there, is where my story ends. Because my story still continues because I later, together with my friends, when we got back from exile, my friend was killed in Umtata. He was killed by people whom I recognised as ANC people. I don't know whether that story is amongst - because in my report I mentioned that.

This is something which worries me a lot, because when we came back, I must tell the story. People must ... (intervention).

MS SOOKA: I would ask you to be very brief in the telling of that story, because we have given you, I think almost an hour to talk about your own treatment in Quattro, and that is actually the basis of your submission to us. I don't want to stop you in the full flow of your statement, but I would ask you to be brief, please, on that particular score.

L DYASOP: I am really sorry, I am really disappointed to find that, because I am talking here about death. I am talking here about the violation of human rights. Why should I be curtailed, why, why, people, why people, should you give me time. I mean here I am dealing with things which concern me mostly. Here I am talking about things that is life and death.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, can I please bring you to order, please. We have other witnesses standing, we have given you ample time. We are giving you ample time to say exactly what you want to say. Thank you.

L DYASOP: I have a case which is still, they say is sub judice. My comrade died in Umtata in 1990. I give the Transkei legislature every evidence. I even have names of

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the people who killed my friend, people who wanted to kill me, you see. So that's why I put so much concern on this.

MS SOOKA: What is the name of your comrade?

L DYASOP: Sipho Pongola.

MS SOOKA: Obviously this matter must have been a criminal matter. Was this case ever prosecuted in the courts in the Transkei?

L DYASOP: No. Even today it has been a cover-up, cover-up, cover-up, because I even said this to Bantu Holimisa and said ths is a cover-up, and really, really, it has been a cover-up, because I understand it was a matter of being patriotic to cover-up. People who are ANC members who had killed. I am talking about people who have killed now. Not only tortured, because I have been tortured, mentally tortured, but now I am talking about my friend who was tortured in Quattro and who is now dead. He was killed.

MS SOOKA: Tell me at the time that your friend was killed, did you make a statement to the Transkeian police so that the matter could be taken further?

L DYASOP: Of course, I did. I gave them, I did a statement on that June 13th 1990. I give the statement and later I have been trying to, my best, what happened in 1991. These suspects were arrested and they appeared in the Umtata Court. They were not asked to plead and they were out on R100,00 bail. You see, that's why I am now appearing in Johannesburg instead of appearing in Umtata, because all along I have been fearing for my own life. I am really sorry that the Commission had to stop where only to limit itself to my treatment in Quattro. That is why I am saying treatment in Quattro didn't end there. It even got to ...

MS SOOKA: Sorry, may I just stop you there. I think the

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problem is that when you made your submission to us, it was made in respect of your own arrests by the ANC when you were out of the country and it dealt with greatly your own confinement in Quattro and your treatment at the hands of the people who were in charge at Quattro.

I think if you are dealing with a matter which you have not dealt with in your statement, I would prefer that we actually take another statement from you and allow you to talk to that statement at another opportunity, so that we can deal with that matter on its own. We have allowed you a considerable amount of time, which is what we allow all witnesses. In fact, we have given you more time than we normally give people.

I do not want to stop you in the free flow, but it is not very fair to the other witnesses who are waiting and we have allowed you to speak at length about your own confinement at Quattro.

You have given us the details and we will in fact ask one of our statement-takes immediately to take your other statement, so that you may have an opportunity to deal with that issue at length.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I would ask other fellow Commissioners to ask you more questions. Hugh Lewin?

Joyce Seroke? Glenda?

MS WILDSCHUT: I just have one short question to put to you. You have talked at length about the torture that you had in Quattro. Could you just give us an idea of what the impact of that torture, particularly has been on your life and the life of your family. If you could just explain to us what it meant for you, and for your family.

L DYASOP: I mean, my family, I told my family my

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experience in exile. They were surprised. They were surprised at the treatment I got from my own fellow comrades. Well, there is nothing they can do. There is nothing I can do too. I must say that I am really disappointed with the Commission, the way it is treating this matter. I am really disappointed and right now I am considering, I think this case, this other case which I say has been a cover-up, I think I am going to take it, not with the Commission, I don't want to pester you, I think I am going to take it ... I will try something else, people, I am really disappointed by the Commission, I am disappointed.

MS WILDSCHUT: Maybe I could make a comment or two about that. The suggestion made by our fellow Commissioner Yasmin Sooka was that that aspect of your statement to be taken by a statement-taker, I think that we need to do it, to do the follow-up that was suggested by the Commissioner. It is important that when we deal with a particular matter before us, that the Commission in fact has the facts before us here at the table so that we can adequately deal with that aspect of your story. In the absence of that aspect of your story, we wondered whether it would do you better that we have a statement before us so that we can treat it and give it the importance that it does deserve.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata, have you got any questions?

MR MANTHATA: I think, subject to correction, that what your primary need is, is time to cool off, you know the time to have people around you of your own choice, that you have confidence in, to talk freely and clearly about this whole matter. Hoping that perhaps they can guide you and see a way forward, but as our fellow Commissioners have pointed out, you are still at liberty to come back to the

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Commission. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Dyasop. We thank you very much for having come forward to share about your experiences outside this country and partly inside the country. As we have been sitting here over the past three days, we have heard people sharing about human rights violations in this country. One of the things we have said to them is that it becomes pathetic if people who have suffered, also in a different capacity, perpetrate human rights violations. People have been saying we should all sing a song which is called "Never Again", and having shared with us what you are saying, we hope that is going to be the first step of your healing. We have understood you, we have heard you, but regarding the substance of the matter, the first step which we will take is to refer your file to the investigation department. We have put down all the new names, all the details have been given. They will investigate the matter further.

You have mentioned your mental pain and anguish about your friend whom you allege was killed when you came back to this country, for reasons which you link to what happened to you outside. Regarding that matter, as Yasmin Sooka has asked you, we will ask that a separate statement be taken. That matter will be referred to the investigation unit and after this, our briefer will talk to you, just to make sure that you don't leave the Commission with unresolved things. We thank you very much for approaching us.

(APPLAUSE).

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask that we break for tea. I will ask some people to assist maybe, to assist their witnesses and show them where they can have tea and our dignitaries will

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come back here, after 15 minutes, half past eleven we will resume again Thank you.

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