CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngcobo, we welcome you together with your wife. We apologised that you had to wait for such a long time. Would you please stand up.

We will start with you, Mr Ngcobo, to take an oath inf ront of this Commission.

MR NGCOBO: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Ngcobo, please.

HILDA NTOMBIZODWA NGCOBO: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Since you are the one who have given the statement, I will ask who is going to lead you, to start, I think with you, that is Joyce Seroke, one of our Commissioners.

MS SEROKE: I greet you, Mr Ngcobo and your daughter. I will ask Hilda to tell us briefly about the brother Andrew Ngcobo, what was he doing, before he disappeared, before he went into exile into other countries. Can you please tell us.

MS NGCOBO: Actually in our family there were 11 and Andrew was the 4th and the 6th. It was in 1976, during that time he was not at school. We had a school, but he wasn't there. He didn't like school. One day, I can't remember the date, but we were coming back from school. Our parents were working. They were not at home when we came home from

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school. My mother was around asking for him, going even to the police station, going even to his friends' houses. They could not find him. No one came to report at home.

After a very long time, the police came who were from Protea police station. They came with his ID photo. They said we are looking for your child, he is in Tanzania, he joined the terrorist organisation. We didn't know by then, we couldn't believe them. During that time they started harassing us, they used to come to visit us at home.

In 1978 or 1974, they phoned - it was the first phone call we received from him, he was phoning from Swaziland. He was phoning from Swaziland and he said to us he is still alive, he is in Swaziland. We were very excited at home. All of us wanted to speak with him.

One lady from Swaziland came home after some days. She is Eunice Gilinsa. She said she is staying with him in Swaziland. She was coming to collect clothes and money. We wrote a letter. We realised that this was not ready. We gave the clothes, we gave the money, we gave her our photos and she went back to Swaziland.

He phoned. His friend said he had received all the materials. He used to phone us. One day, after a call, the police came from Protea police station and said the terrorist called. They said when he phoned they used to tape it at home. When we called him it went to Protea police station immediately and the police will come. All the time he used to phone us and police used to come daily.

In 1984, I think it was in December, after having called us from Swaziland. He stayed for a long time without him phoning us, even the lady was not phoning. People used to come at home, who were not familiar to us, they were

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strangers. Some of them were working at (indistinct). They used to ask us funny questions. The police would during the night, sometimes during the day.

In 1994, on the 16th of December, we read in the Sunday newspaper, in 1984, I'm sorry, it is 1984, in December 16th, we read in the Sunday paper. We heard it in Lesotho, we listened to the radio, the news, it was in the evening news. We were watching television. They said he was coming from this family who was short in Swaziland.

My mother died in 1984. She was a person who was eager to know what happened to my son, who sent the people to kill him in Swaziland. Because she knew that she joined the ANC.

I want to ask the Commission who killed my son, why, what did he do.

We went to Swaziland. It was my father, my mother and Chris, my brother. We went there to fetch his corpse. We were not allowed, firstly, because it was late and then they came back to South Africa. They went back again on the 29th of December 1974(?) to Swaziland. They found that he was not in the mortuary shelves. He was rotten, he was put in a plastic, the plastic which (indistinct). My father came back home and my mother was left in Swaziland. They went to the police station and the police said they will go with them and they are going to make (indistinct).

They went to Swaziland and they agreed that the body should be brought back to South Africa. We buried him. We heard through rumours, and we are not sure, we heard when Eunice came to the funeral and she said they have children in Swaziland who are twins. She went back to Swaziland without explaining to us properly.

We ask this Commission to, because we don't know

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whether there are twins. We just heard there are twins. We want the Commission to look for us.

MS SEROKE: Thank you, Hilda. Is there anything which your father would like to add to what you have said?

MR NGCOBO: I don't think there is anything that I can add, because what she has said is the truth. So there is nothing that I can actually add. There is nothing I can add. Thank you.

MS SEROKE: I will ask you a few questions. Are you sure, you said that Andrew didn't like school and he was a person who was involved - was he a person who was involved in the struggle, according to your knowledge?

MRS NGCOBO: No, before 1976 we knew nothing about the struggle. He was still at school but he was not at school, as I said. He was not involved. We don't know how he left the country because he was not involved. After 1976 he became all involved in the family. We don't know who took him. We just heard by the police that he is in Tanzania.

MS SEROKE: This police who came with Andrew's photo and they told you that they know that he is working for the ANC, did they tell you their names?

MRS NGCOBO: No, they didn't tell us their names, and we didn't even ask them their names, because in many cases when you ask the police for their names, they say that you are "hardegat", even if you are asleep. They come at six o'clock, some come during the day. So we were confused. My mother was working during the evening. We didn't have time to ask them names because they used to harass us. We were not comfortable with them.

MS SEROKE: In your statement you are saying they took your three brothers Daniel, Zwandile and Jerry, they took them to SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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the police station. When they came back did they say what the police wanted?

MS NGCOBO: Because there are some times when they just came and said they wanted firearms. In the area where we were staying in Meadowlands, during those times we were isolated, we were known as terrorists, as bad people. There were people in the same street who used to tell the police if that person comes home and having friends, who used to visit us, more especially friends who belong to Chris. If a person comes to our house, the police will come to our house and say that they saw a terrorist coming to our home, even if the person was just maybe coming to our home to visit us. If they don't find that person, they would take Zwandile, Daniel and Jerry and take them to the police station. At the Protea police station they tortured them the whole night. They bring them back in the morning. The used to torture them even with electric shocks, asking what do you know, is there any person who brings firearms; they heard that there are firearms in the garage.

MS SEROKE: In other words, they were tortured because your brother was in exile with the ANC?

MS NGCOBO: Yes. They suffered for that, because even before, after the funeral they used to come, they came for Chris and Jerry, they arrested Chris and Jerry. They took them to Sun City. They used to come. Then one day they were taken by the police.

MS SEROKE: You go on in your statement, you say that Eunice came and brought the news and said that he is still alive, he is having twins. You continue that after that, your brother used to phone. At the times when he phoned he was happy. Did he ever say that he is having twins? Did he

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ever confirm that he is having twins?

MS NGCOBO: No, he never said anything. We heard it from Eunice.

MS SEROKE: You continue and say you heard it after six years, that Andrew - you heard it through the radio that Andrew was killed. Did the radio give the details?

MS NGCOBO: No, they never gave any details. They just said when they investigated there was a person who was coming from Meadowlands, who was killed. They never explained who killed him.

MS SEROKE: You heard that he was working for the ANC. You never went to the ANC and asked if your brother was killed, what was the problem?

MS NGCOBO: I don't know about that, because a person who went to Khosa House was my mother and my father.

MS SEROKE: What is Khosa House?

MS NGCOBO: Khosa House was the headquarters of the South African Council of Churches.

MS SEROKE: They went to ask about the death of your brother or did they go and ask about bringing him back to bury him?

MS NGCOBO: I don't know, my father can tell you that, because he was the one who went there.

MR NGCOBO: Can I speak?

MS SEROKE: Yes.

MS NGCOBO: I never went to Khosa House, I went to Shell House.

MS SEROKE: To Shell House?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that is where I went. I didn't ask because it was a long time. I went to Shell House after we had buried him. They said they were going to come. No one ever came at home. Then I went to Shell House and they said they SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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know me. They even gave me photos and they said they were going to write a letter to me. Then I stayed at home. All this time, 1993, and then this time arrived.

MS SEROKE: Do you remember when, who you spoke with?

MR NGCOBO: I found many people in the ninth floor. There was a woman, I don't know the name, but I didn't think of that because I trusted them.

MS SEROKE: Thank you. Thank you Hilda and father, I will hand over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you for coming. I will ask if any of the other Commissioners have questions. Yasmin Sooka?

Glenda Wildschut? Tom Manthata?

Maybe I can ask from you that you are here before the Commission, can you please tell the Commission what is important, that we can help you with?

MRS NGCOBO: When I went to the Commission they asked me the same question. I said we can be very much happy if these children are there, they should look for those children. If they can be looking for these children we can very much happy and we can be happy if they can put tombstone on the grave.

CHAIRPERSON: Concerning your children, Eunice who came and who brought the letters, when you went to Swaziland, were you not able to see her?

MRS NGCOBO: No, she came on her own to the funeral and stayed for a week and she went back to Swaziland and she said she is going to write to us and she never, she has never written anything to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not easy for you to follow her to Swaziland?

MRS NGCOBO: In 1977 I went to Swaziland to collect his

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death certificate. I thought I was going to find him. They said, the people in Swaziland said they don't know him. I never heard about the children. Then I came back. I stayed for a very long time, nothing went right and I came back.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We are saying to you what we have said to everyone who have testified here, your case is another one which has to be followed up. We are going to ask the people who worked with him, we are going to consult with the politicians to investigate the matter, how the people were killed, they must be respected, the way they were buried. The Commission is looking forward to look into this matter very seriously, because people are not going to be happy if their people were not buried in a proper way. Thank you for having come here. The briefers are going to tell you whom to consult. You will hear from us about the pgoress.

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